Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
versions. The packages for a particular branch tend to lag the updates by up to a couple of weeks although they are built continually. If you want to stay really up to date you need to keep your tree updated with portsnap or csup (part of the base system) and compile them yourself. Another advantage to compiling is you can choose options. The packages are always built with default options which is generally OK, but not always optimal. On a discussion note, wouldn't it be nice (and quite possible based on the frequency of vulnerability reports on vuxml) to have a sort of security branch for pre-built packages? What I mean is, if you use -RELEASE package repository, you get the benefit of a large number of pre-built packages at a cost of them not being up to date. On the other hand, building all the packages all the time (i.e. using -STABLE repository) results in the mentioned couple of weeks lag, probably due to the sheer number of ports available. So, it would be nice to have a sort of -SECURITY branch (much like it existed before freebsd-update became part of base system) and make a dedicated package repository where only packages with reported vulnerabilities in vuxml would get (promptly and regularly) rebuilt thus giving people options of doing binary up-to-date upgrading without inflicting too much load on the package building machines. Thoughts anyone? -- Nino ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 10:43:39AM -0600, Javier Vasquez wrote: On 12/2/08, andrew clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue 2008-12-02 00:41:58 UTC-0600, Javier Vasquez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I was reading chapter 4 of the handbook, as well as chapters 24 and 26... If I got it clear, I pretty much might get the base system updated by using freebsd-update script. Ports collection can get updated with portsnap, but that doesn't update neither the intalled ports, nor the installed packages. To upgrade the installed ports, portmanager or portmaster or portupgrade can be used... However only portupgrade can be used to upgrade packages, right? Now, can something like portupgrade -a -PP to upgrade all packages without building a thing (might be that some don't get updated due to the lack of binary package yet, and in such case would dependencies be managed right)? Right. More into how things work, as ports and pacakages are not part of the base systems, are they somehow associated to a particular release (most probably not)? So that pretty much no matter the release, if packages and ports are kept up to date, they might be the same for all releases? There are downloadable packages that are regularly built from the latest ports tree. There are different packages available for different releases though (eg. 6.x vs 7.x, i386 vs amd64). The theory goes that you can use i386 packages built for (for example) 6.4 on a 6.3 system. Possibly all the way back to 6.0. If you're relying on prebuilt packages then ideally you should try to keep the base system updated where possible. I'm asking these questions since I'm evaluating moving to BSD, but I want to avoid compiling as much as possible since my box is 800MHz piii celeron with just 32KB of cache and 512MB of ram, and for it source based distributions have proven to be too much to handle, so my intention would be to live with binary packages and updates/upgrades only... Those specs should be fine if you're building small software such as Squid, Apache, Samba, etc. I build everything I need (http server + http cache + mail server + spam filter + more) from source using a 1 GHz Pentium III with 256 Mb (using portmaster). Firefox, GNOME or KDE would take a long time with 800 MHz. But I wouldn't really like to run those big apps at only 800 MHz either. There's no reason why you can't install the larger software from packages then just build the smaller stuff from source. With portupgrade -PP you're still going to have to keep your ports tree updated (I use portsnap) so it's not a lot of extra effort to build from source. Actually I don't run desktop managers, just plain fluxbox over X. And I use X mostly to browse the web. But any ways, I've run source based linux distributions in the past, and although it's fun, my box takes too much time to keep up with the rolling changes. So I've learned it's better to keep updating through binaries in this good old boxes... I think you'll find that keeping relatively up-to-date on FreeBSD using ports is fairly easy, even on a lowish powered machine especially since you don't use the big desktop environments. Install portaudit so that you only upgrade when there is a security problem (or a must have feature). The bigger stuff like Firefox you can run at night. You will also find that FreeBSD is quite good at multitasking and that whilst building ports it's perfectly possible to get on with your work in comfort. More so than Linux. Also if remaining under -STABLE, is all this possible? Kind of understood that openoffice.org can't be installed with pkg_add -r, so most probably if living under -STABLE automatic updates for openoffice.org won't show up... So this kinds of answers one previous question about the packages been independent from the base system release, it looks like they aren't... Not too sure what you're asking here, and I've never used -STABLE. Keep in mind though that you can't use freebsd-update if you're using -STABLE (AFAIK). Ups, I didn't know that... so freebsd-update only works on -RELEASE's. I'm not sure that was explicit in the documentation, good to know, :) So the only way to live in -STABLE up to date is to keep the base system up to date through compilation... Yep, but I only track STABLE when it's got some fix for some hardware/software that I must have, otherwise I track RELEASES then you can use freebsd-update. BTW, I just retired a 300MHz Celeron that I used a combination of packages ports (but mainly ports). My new laptop, I just use ports. I find ports less troublesome than packages. Thanks, -- Javier Regards, -- Frank Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tuesday 02 December 2008 09:04:56 Beech Rintoul wrote: On Monday 01 December 2008 21:43:08 Javier Vasquez wrote: On 12/2/08, Javier Vasquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I was reading chapter 4 of the handbook, as well as chapters 24 and 26... If I got it clear, I pretty much might get the base system updated by using freebsd-update script. Ports collection can get updated with portsnap, but that doesn't update neither the installed ports, nor the installed packages. To upgrade the installed ports, portmanager or portmaster or portupgrade can be used... However only portupgrade can be used to upgrade packages, right? Not sure about the others, I use portupgrade myself. But yes, you can update packages with portupgrade. Now, can something like portupgrade -a -PP to upgrade all packages without building a thing (might be that some don't get updated due to the lack of binary package yet, and in such case would dependencies be managed right)? Not sure what you mean by managed, but if there's no package there would be no dependent ports downloaded. If you do a portupgrade -aP (single P) it will go look for a package then compile it if it's not available. Compiling really isn't that bad even on an 800MHz box. Portupgrade -PP is detrimental for bandwidth. It's not really portupgrade's fault (well, partially, it shouldn't offer the feature), because it will quite often download Latest/foo.tbz, unpack it entirely and then say oops, I downloaded this useless package which is older or equal to what you have installed. When i started writing my own tools I quickly realized that the buildserver needs an index of the /packages/ it has. -- Mel Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules and never get to the software part. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tue 2008-12-02 00:41:58 UTC-0600, Javier Vasquez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I was reading chapter 4 of the handbook, as well as chapters 24 and 26... If I got it clear, I pretty much might get the base system updated by using freebsd-update script. Ports collection can get updated with portsnap, but that doesn't update neither the intalled ports, nor the installed packages. To upgrade the installed ports, portmanager or portmaster or portupgrade can be used... However only portupgrade can be used to upgrade packages, right? Now, can something like portupgrade -a -PP to upgrade all packages without building a thing (might be that some don't get updated due to the lack of binary package yet, and in such case would dependencies be managed right)? Right. More into how things work, as ports and pacakages are not part of the base systems, are they somehow associated to a particular release (most probably not)? So that pretty much no matter the release, if packages and ports are kept up to date, they might be the same for all releases? There are downloadable packages that are regularly built from the latest ports tree. There are different packages available for different releases though (eg. 6.x vs 7.x, i386 vs amd64). The theory goes that you can use i386 packages built for (for example) 6.4 on a 6.3 system. Possibly all the way back to 6.0. If you're relying on prebuilt packages then ideally you should try to keep the base system updated where possible. I'm asking these questions since I'm evaluating moving to BSD, but I want to avoid compiling as much as possible since my box is 800MHz piii celeron with just 32KB of cache and 512MB of ram, and for it source based distributions have proven to be too much to handle, so my intention would be to live with binary packages and updates/upgrades only... Those specs should be fine if you're building small software such as Squid, Apache, Samba, etc. I build everything I need (http server + http cache + mail server + spam filter + more) from source using a 1 GHz Pentium III with 256 Mb (using portmaster). Firefox, GNOME or KDE would take a long time with 800 MHz. But I wouldn't really like to run those big apps at only 800 MHz either. There's no reason why you can't install the larger software from packages then just build the smaller stuff from source. With portupgrade -PP you're still going to have to keep your ports tree updated (I use portsnap) so it's not a lot of extra effort to build from source. Also if remaining under -STABLE, is all this possible? Kind of understood that openoffice.org can't be installed with pkg_add -r, so most probably if living under -STABLE automatic updates for openoffice.org won't show up... So this kinds of answers one previous question about the packages been independent from the base system release, it looks like they aren't... Not too sure what you're asking here, and I've never used -STABLE. Keep in mind though that you can't use freebsd-update if you're using -STABLE (AFAIK). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tue 2008-12-02 09:28:44 UTC+0100, Mel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Portupgrade -PP is detrimental for bandwidth. It's not really portupgrade's fault (well, partially, it shouldn't offer the feature), because it will quite often download Latest/foo.tbz, unpack it entirely and then say oops, I downloaded this useless package which is older or equal to what you have installed. Yes, this happens. -PP is not ideal for regular updates but it's still useful for when you have a new FreeBSD install with no packages installed, and want to get up and running quickly, grabbing the most recent binaries of all your favourite ports instead of building them all from source. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tuesday 02 December 2008 17:13:58 andrew clarke wrote: On Tue 2008-12-02 09:28:44 UTC+0100, Mel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Portupgrade -PP is detrimental for bandwidth. It's not really portupgrade's fault (well, partially, it shouldn't offer the feature), because it will quite often download Latest/foo.tbz, unpack it entirely and then say oops, I downloaded this useless package which is older or equal to what you have installed. Yes, this happens. -PP is not ideal for regular updates but it's still useful for when you have a new FreeBSD install with no packages installed, and want to get up and running quickly, grabbing the most recent binaries of all your favourite ports instead of building them all from source. That's infinitely slower than pkg_add -r list of leaves. -- Mel Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules and never get to the software part. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tue 2008-12-02 17:22:53 UTC+0100, Mel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Yes, this happens. -PP is not ideal for regular updates but it's still useful for when you have a new FreeBSD install with no packages installed, and want to get up and running quickly, grabbing the most recent binaries of all your favourite ports instead of building them all from source. That's infinitely slower than pkg_add -r list of leaves. Hmm. Yes. I'm trying to remember why I did not like pkg_add -r. On the other hand I may be imagining any preference I had towards portupgrade -PP. Sorry :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On 12/2/08, andrew clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue 2008-12-02 00:41:58 UTC-0600, Javier Vasquez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I was reading chapter 4 of the handbook, as well as chapters 24 and 26... If I got it clear, I pretty much might get the base system updated by using freebsd-update script. Ports collection can get updated with portsnap, but that doesn't update neither the intalled ports, nor the installed packages. To upgrade the installed ports, portmanager or portmaster or portupgrade can be used... However only portupgrade can be used to upgrade packages, right? Now, can something like portupgrade -a -PP to upgrade all packages without building a thing (might be that some don't get updated due to the lack of binary package yet, and in such case would dependencies be managed right)? Right. More into how things work, as ports and pacakages are not part of the base systems, are they somehow associated to a particular release (most probably not)? So that pretty much no matter the release, if packages and ports are kept up to date, they might be the same for all releases? There are downloadable packages that are regularly built from the latest ports tree. There are different packages available for different releases though (eg. 6.x vs 7.x, i386 vs amd64). The theory goes that you can use i386 packages built for (for example) 6.4 on a 6.3 system. Possibly all the way back to 6.0. If you're relying on prebuilt packages then ideally you should try to keep the base system updated where possible. I'm asking these questions since I'm evaluating moving to BSD, but I want to avoid compiling as much as possible since my box is 800MHz piii celeron with just 32KB of cache and 512MB of ram, and for it source based distributions have proven to be too much to handle, so my intention would be to live with binary packages and updates/upgrades only... Those specs should be fine if you're building small software such as Squid, Apache, Samba, etc. I build everything I need (http server + http cache + mail server + spam filter + more) from source using a 1 GHz Pentium III with 256 Mb (using portmaster). Firefox, GNOME or KDE would take a long time with 800 MHz. But I wouldn't really like to run those big apps at only 800 MHz either. There's no reason why you can't install the larger software from packages then just build the smaller stuff from source. With portupgrade -PP you're still going to have to keep your ports tree updated (I use portsnap) so it's not a lot of extra effort to build from source. Actually I don't run desktop managers, just plain fluxbox over X. And I use X mostly to browse the web. But any ways, I've run source based linux distributions in the past, and although it's fun, my box takes too much time to keep up with the rolling changes. So I've learned it's better to keep updating through binaries in this good old boxes... Also if remaining under -STABLE, is all this possible? Kind of understood that openoffice.org can't be installed with pkg_add -r, so most probably if living under -STABLE automatic updates for openoffice.org won't show up... So this kinds of answers one previous question about the packages been independent from the base system release, it looks like they aren't... Not too sure what you're asking here, and I've never used -STABLE. Keep in mind though that you can't use freebsd-update if you're using -STABLE (AFAIK). Ups, I didn't know that... so freebsd-update only works on -RELEASE's. I'm not sure that was explicit in the documentation, good to know, :) So the only way to live in -STABLE up to date is to keep the base system up to date through compilation... Thanks, -- Javier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
Mel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tuesday 02 December 2008 17:13:58 andrew clarke wrote: On Tue 2008-12-02 09:28:44 UTC+0100, Mel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Portupgrade -PP is detrimental for bandwidth. It's not really portupgrade's fault (well, partially, it shouldn't offer the feature), because it will quite often download Latest/foo.tbz, unpack it entirely and then say oops, I downloaded this useless package which is older or equal to what you have installed. Yes, this happens. -PP is not ideal for regular updates but it's still useful for when you have a new FreeBSD install with no packages installed, and want to get up and running quickly, grabbing the most recent binaries of all your favourite ports instead of building them all from source. That's infinitely slower than pkg_add -r list of leaves. Don't use portupgrade -NPP package. ;-) But portupgrade -PP package really *upgrades* packages. WBR -- Boris Samorodov (bsam) Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone Internet SP FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On Tuesday 02 December 2008 19:03:44 Boris Samorodov wrote: Mel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tuesday 02 December 2008 17:13:58 andrew clarke wrote: On Tue 2008-12-02 09:28:44 UTC+0100, Mel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Portupgrade -PP is detrimental for bandwidth. It's not really portupgrade's fault (well, partially, it shouldn't offer the feature), because it will quite often download Latest/foo.tbz, unpack it entirely and then say oops, I downloaded this useless package which is older or equal to what you have installed. Yes, this happens. -PP is not ideal for regular updates but it's still useful for when you have a new FreeBSD install with no packages installed, and want to get up and running quickly, grabbing the most recent binaries of all your favourite ports instead of building them all from source. That's infinitely slower than pkg_add -r list of leaves. Don't use portupgrade -NPP package. ;-) But portupgrade -PP package really *upgrades* packages. Don't assume that the @pkgdep lines in a given package on the FreeBSD servers will always point to an existing package. If it doesn't, watch what happens: Latest/foo.tbz based on s/@name (.*)-[^-]+$/$1/ extract foo.tbz entirely, rather then just +CONTENTS which is the first file in the tar archive find out that foo = foo-older-then-installed and discard the package I've solved this myself with an index format like this: # bzcat /var/pkg/7-stable/All/INDEX.bz2 |tail -1 archivers/zip:zip-3.0.tbz:72f4fcc337c74240eaa8ae989a452835231fe7ff32c7469094e3a5fe411d7430:181194 $origin:$pkgname.tbz:$sha256:$size High level view: Compare btree of /var/db/pkg with btree of indexfile, download and upgrade. Saves bogus downloads and doesn't need a portstree. Cons: buildserver needs to periodically create the index, index needs to be downloaded. -- Mel Problem with today's modular software: they start with the modules and never get to the software part. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
... I'm trying to remember why I did not like pkg_add -r. IIRC, one issue with pkg_add -r is that it insists on doing everything from the remote repository, and will not bother looking for any packages (incl. dependencies) locally first. This makes sense for a brand-new installation where you know there's no local repository to search -- which is probably the use case that the author had in mind -- but can be inefficient otherwise. I started hacking on it a while back, but have not had much time lately. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
Hi, I was reading chapter 4 of the handbook, as well as chapters 24 and 26... If I got it clear, I pretty much might get the base system updated by using freebsd-update script. Ports collection can get updated with portsnap, but that doesn't update neither the intalled ports, nor the installed packages. To upgrade the installed ports, portmanager or portmaster or portupgrade can be used... However only portupgrade can be used to upgrade packages, right? Now, can something like portupgrade -a -PP to upgrade all packages without building a thing (might be that some don't get updated due to the lack of binary package yet, and in such case would dependencies be managed right)? More into how things work, as ports and pacakages are not part of the base systems, are they somehow associated to a particular release (most probably not)? So that pretty much no matter the release, if packages and ports are kept up to date, they might be the same for all releases? I'm asking these questions since I'm evaluating moving to BSD, but I want to avoid compiling as much as possible since my box is 800MHz piii celeron with just 32KB of cache and 512MB of ram, and for it source based distributions have proven to be too much to handle, so my intention would be to live with binary packages and updates/upgrades only... Also if remaining under -STABLE, is all this possible? Kind of understood that openoffice.org can't be installed with pkg_add -r, so most probably if living under -STABLE automatic updates for openoffice.org won't show up... So this kinds of answers one previous question about the packages been independent from the base system release, it looks like they aren't... Thanks, -- Javier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [freebsd-questions] Looking @ upgrades mechanisms...
On 12/2/08, Javier Vasquez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I was reading chapter 4 of the handbook, as well as chapters 24 and 26... If I got it clear, I pretty much might get the base system updated by using freebsd-update script. Ports collection can get updated with portsnap, but that doesn't update neither the intalled ports, nor the installed packages. To upgrade the installed ports, portmanager or portmaster or portupgrade can be used... However only portupgrade can be used to upgrade packages, right? Now, can something like portupgrade -a -PP to upgrade all packages without building a thing (might be that some don't get updated due to the lack of binary package yet, and in such case would dependencies be managed right)? More into how things work, as ports and pacakages are not part of the base systems, are they somehow associated to a particular release (most probably not)? So that pretty much no matter the release, if packages and ports are kept up to date, they might be the same for all releases? I'm asking these questions since I'm evaluating moving to BSD, but I want to avoid compiling as much as possible since my box is 800MHz piii celeron with just 32KB of cache and 512MB of ram, and for it source based distributions have proven to be too much to handle, so my intention would be to live with binary packages and updates/upgrades only... Also if remaining under -STABLE, is all this possible? Kind of understood that openoffice.org can't be installed with pkg_add -r, so most probably if living under -STABLE automatic updates for openoffice.org won't show up... So this kinds of answers one previous question about the packages been independent from the base system release, it looks like they aren't... Thanks, -- Javier I forgot to ask to CC me, since I'm not part of the list yet... Thanks, -- Javier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
