Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-07 Thread Ruben de Groot
On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 02:05:39PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar typed:
 rsync isn't bloated and it's well written IMO. It still does only one job, 
 and
 it does it well. As you say, most common tasks can still be done with only
 short options. This would change if some developer decided to add other,
 unrelated functionality. But that's harder if you want to maintain short 
 options
 for the common tasks.
 Having only long options would place no such restrictions on bloating.
 
 what program you mean about having only long options?

Wasn't referring to any particular program's. mplayer is an example though.
But that's not my point.
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-06 Thread Ruben de Groot
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 11:08:23PM -0500, Kirk Strauser typed:
 Chris Rees wrote:
 
 Traditional:
 
 % tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz
 
 GNU recommended:
 
 $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz
 
 Seriously, why are long options encouraged?
 
 Scripting.  I almost always use long options when writing scripts I 
 might use again later so that 6 months later I don't have to remember 
 what some single-letter option meant.  I pretty much never use them on 
 the command line, though.

Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts,
tutorials, howto's etc.
The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the 
alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated 
software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm
of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just
chaining these together.

Ruben

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-06 Thread Wojciech Puchar

what some single-letter option meant.  I pretty much never use them on
the command line, though.


Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts,
tutorials, howto's etc.
The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the
alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated
software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm
of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just
chaining these together.

you exaggerate a bit.

for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program 
that is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm.


But it have one letter shortcuts for mostly used parameters
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-06 Thread Ruben de Groot
On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 11:49:51AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar typed:
 what some single-letter option meant.  I pretty much never use them on
 the command line, though.
 
 Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in scripts,
 tutorials, howto's etc.
 The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the
 alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated
 software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm
 of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just
 chaining these together.
 you exaggerate a bit.

Maybe :)

 for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program 
 that is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm.

rsync isn't bloated and it's well written IMO. It still does only one job, and 
it does it well. As you say, most common tasks can still be done with only
short options. This would change if some developer decided to add other,
unrelated functionality. But that's harder if you want to maintain short options
for the common tasks.
Having only long options would place no such restrictions on bloating.

Ruben
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-06 Thread Wojciech Puchar

rsync isn't bloated and it's well written IMO. It still does only one job, and
it does it well. As you say, most common tasks can still be done with only
short options. This would change if some developer decided to add other,
unrelated functionality. But that's harder if you want to maintain short options
for the common tasks.
Having only long options would place no such restrictions on bloating.


what program you mean about having only long options?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-06 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/6 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 what some single-letter option meant.  I pretty much never use them on
 the command line, though.

 Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in
 scripts,
 tutorials, howto's etc.
 The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the
 alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated
 software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix paradigm
 of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just
 chaining these together.

 you exaggerate a bit.

 for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program that
 is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm.

 But it have one letter shortcuts for mostly used parameters


Can I be picky and point out it's actually 52 short options?

[ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -f
quantumdot  mailcromwell_1024.bin.gz
public_html bnreg   amnesiackey.pub
backup.sh.gzcromwell.bin.gz check-portupgrade.pl
why.c   teamspeak
[ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -F
amnesiackey.pub cromwell.bin.gz quantumdot/
backup.sh.gzcromwell_1024.bin.gzteamspeak/
bnreg/  mail/   why.c
check-portupgrade.plpublic_html/
[ch...@amnesiac]~%

for just one example

Chris

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-06 Thread Tim Judd
On 6/6/09, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote:
 2009/6/6 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 what some single-letter option meant.  I pretty much never use them on
 the command line, though.

 Agreed, the long options *as an alternative* can be descriptive in
 scripts,
 tutorials, howto's etc.
 The other reason often mentioned, there being not enough letters in the
 alphabet to cover all possible options, in my opinion advocates bloated
 software (one program can do it all), which goes against the Unix
 paradigm
 of making small programs that do one task exceptionally well and just
 chaining these together.

 you exaggerate a bit.

 for example rsync does have 26 options but most make sense for program
 that
 is dedicated to one task, and it isn't against Unix paradigm.

 But it have one letter shortcuts for mostly used parameters


 Can I be picky and point out it's actually 52 short options?

 [ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -f
 quantumdot  mailcromwell_1024.bin.gz
 public_html bnreg   amnesiackey.pub
 backup.sh.gzcromwell.bin.gz check-portupgrade.pl
 why.c   teamspeak
 [ch...@amnesiac]~% ls -F
 amnesiackey.pub cromwell.bin.gz quantumdot/
 backup.sh.gzcromwell_1024.bin.gzteamspeak/
 bnreg/  mail/   why.c
 check-portupgrade.plpublic_html/
 [ch...@amnesiac]~%

 for just one example

 Chris


and digits add another 10.

We're up to 62 single-character options.  I'm sure punctuation will be next.

dig www.google.com @192.168.0.1


OK, so now where does that leave us?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Gary Kline
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:16:05PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
 On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:06 -0400, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:
  Yes, I know.   That is why some other additional for is also useful.
  I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other
  form. 
 
 Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page.
 Further documentation often is supplied in /usr/local/share/doc
 and /usr/local/share/examples - available locally.
 

my take of the idea of man pages is simple: they serve as a concise
summary of a program you already know.  maybe you've forgotten a 'w' 
flag
or switch.  otherwise, a number of examples are worth ten thousand 
words.
the gotcha is that examples take a lot of skill... .  and, yes, the
better programs with man pages do have examples!




gary


 
 
 
 -- 
 Polytropon
 From Magdeburg, Germany
 Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Thursday 04 June 2009 04:17:56 pm Chris Rees wrote:

 Info is horrible to use as a quick reference, because as Polytropon
 said earlier, you can't just dive in to get something specific. The
 info is split into (arbitrary) sections, through which you have to
 tread, and jump around hyperlinks all over.

In fairness, a good info browser (eg Emacs) makes searching in an info doc 
trivially easy.  I think the biggest problem is that /usr/bin/info is horrid 
and people lump their impression of it onto their impression of info docs as a 
whole.
-- 
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/5 Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com:
 On Thursday 04 June 2009 04:17:56 pm Chris Rees wrote:

 Info is horrible to use as a quick reference, because as Polytropon
 said earlier, you can't just dive in to get something specific. The
 info is split into (arbitrary) sections, through which you have to
 tread, and jump around hyperlinks all over.

 In fairness, a good info browser (eg Emacs) makes searching in an info doc
 trivially easy.  I think the biggest problem is that /usr/bin/info is horrid
 and people lump their impression of it onto their impression of info docs as a
 whole.
 --
 Kirk Strauser

Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic?

I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of
the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that?

Chris



-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Friday 05 June 2009 11:50:58 am Chris Rees wrote:

 Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic?

Not that I know of.  :-/

 I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of
 the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that?

Ouch.  You had to go there, didn't you?
-- 
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/5 Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com:
 On Friday 05 June 2009 11:50:58 am Chris Rees wrote:

 Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic?

 Not that I know of.  :-/

 I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of
 the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that?

 Ouch.  You had to go there, didn't you?

I feel GNU is very similar in many ways to DOS, along with their
preference for 'long options'. Horrible. You end up with monstrosities
of commands.

Traditional:

% tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz

GNU recommended:

$ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz

Seriously, why are long options encouraged?

Chris



-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Kurt Buff
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 13:23, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote:
 2009/6/5 Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com:
 On Friday 05 June 2009 11:50:58 am Chris Rees wrote:

 Is there a 'quick' way to use emacs instead of info? Like info-emacs topic?

 Not that I know of.  :-/

 I've remembered why I hate the info browser so much; it reminds me of
 the 'help' included with MS-DOS 6.22. Anyone remember that?

 Ouch.  You had to go there, didn't you?

 I feel GNU is very similar in many ways to DOS, along with their
 preference for 'long options'. Horrible. You end up with monstrosities
 of commands.

 Traditional:

 % tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz

 GNU recommended:

 $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz

 Seriously, why are long options encouraged?

At a guess? Probably because it allows more options for the command
line, and more easily read options, too.

Kurt
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Thomas Dickey
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 09:23:06PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote:
 Seriously, why are long options encouraged?

Some programs simply have a lot of options, and after a dozen or
so, a single letter loses its mnemonic value.

X applications have been using long options for 20 years - long enough
to get used to the notion.

-- 
Thomas E. Dickey
http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Wojciech Puchar

GNU recommended:

$ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz

Seriously, why are long options encouraged?


there are people that like to write a lot? ;)
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Thomas Dickey
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:49:19PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 GNU recommended:
 
 $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz
 
 Seriously, why are long options encouraged?
 
 there are people that like to write a lot? ;)

no..., otherwise the people generating this thread would cite realistic
examples, rather than writing a lot.

-- 
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http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/5 Thomas Dickey dic...@radix.net:
 On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:49:19PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 GNU recommended:
 
 $ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz
 
 Seriously, why are long options encouraged?
 
 there are people that like to write a lot? ;)

 no..., otherwise the people generating this thread would cite realistic
 examples, rather than writing a lot.


The point I was trying to make (badly), was that long options are a
PITA to type. I don't believe it's any easier to learn the long names
for options than the short ones. Since you're typing huge amounts of
text quickly, you're more likely to make mistakes, and you'll probably
forget them anyway.

So, instead of looking up short options in the man page, I am then
reduced to riffling through the info tome, to find the long option
that I've forgotten. No really, I do forget long options. A lot.

Chris

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Thomas Dickey
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:11:00PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote:
 
 The point I was trying to make (badly), was that long options are a
 PITA to type. I don't believe it's any easier to learn the long names
 for options than the short ones. Since you're typing huge amounts of
 text quickly, you're more likely to make mistakes, and you'll probably
 forget them anyway.

One can have long options in a user-friendly way (some implementors choose
to allow them to be abbreviated; some environments do name-completion).

As I'm editing this remark, for example, I'm using a text editor that
does name-completion (a good thing since it has several hundred commands,
which can each be bound to a single character, etc).
 
-- 
Thomas E. Dickey
http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net


pgpaYBJpO4PDX.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-05 Thread Kirk Strauser

Chris Rees wrote:


Traditional:

% tar xzvf bluurgh.tgz

GNU recommended:

$ tar --extract --verbose --gunzip --file bluurgh.tgz

Seriously, why are long options encouraged?


Scripting.  I almost always use long options when writing scripts I 
might use again later so that 6 months later I don't have to remember 
what some single-letter option meant.  I pretty much never use them on 
the command line, though.

--
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Ignore him please.


because?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/4 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 Ignore him please.

 because?

The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of
documentation. Texinfo is for GNU projects. Try 'info tar' on a BSD
system, you'll get the man page.

Chris



-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar


because?


The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of
documentation. Texinfo is for GNU projects. Try 'info tar' on a BSD
system, you'll get the man page.


indeed. But i was talking about how linux looks. Forgot to read all - as 
usual?

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/4 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:

 because?

 The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of
 documentation. Texinfo is for GNU projects. Try 'info tar' on a BSD
 system, you'll get the man page.

 indeed. But i was talking about how linux looks. Forgot to read all - as
 usual?


As usual? Beg pardon, would you care to point out where I've done that before?

I'd imagine he's also talking about the Handbook, and the fact that
man pages are infinitely easier to read and get useful information out
of than texinfo pages.

Perhaps your emails would be easier to read if they weren't so rushed.
Perhaps explain what you mean rather than copy-pasting from somewhere,
or even worse, typing it WRONG from memory?

Chris

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Thursday 04 June 2009 08:28:08 am Chris Rees wrote:

 Perhaps your emails would be easier to read if they weren't so rushed.

I think that's the problem.  After re-reading his email, I think I can see how 
he meant it to refer to the state of Linux's documentation and not FreeBSD's, 
but I really had to go looking for that interpretation.
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Polytropon
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:23:34 +0100, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote:
 The FreeBSD project still uses man pages as the principle form of
 documentation.

Sorry I brought up this topic... I don't think manpages are bad,
I cosider them THE BEST SOLUTION for local documentation, so I
don't think your use of the word still is well placed here.

It should be The FreeBSD project uses man pages [...] - not still,
which reads like The FreeBSD project still uses those old
fashioned man pages, but will abandon them soon in favour of
a GUI-driven help system that is used via Internet. :-)

As a programmer, FreeBSD's documentation - beginning with the
manpages, furthermore including the FAQ and the handbook, and
finally the source code as well - is the most excellent kind
of documentation I've seen so far. Returning to the manpages,
they cover everything: Binaries, file formats, maintenance
procedures, kernel interfaces, library calls... nothing
important is missing. If you have a problem with foo, you
simply enter man foo to get more info about it. This is
a situation you won't find in modern Linusi, and sadly, as
well in modern applications on FreeBSD, mostly those that
are GUI driven. Try to find manpages for some program from
the KDE project. In opposite, try man mplayer or man xmms,
and, there's even man opera, but no man firefox. In
those cases where there's no manpage, users are usually
redirected to some web forum, Wiki, or encouraged to write
the documentation on their own. :-) I think Wojciech just had
the same observation.



-- 
Polytropon
From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

It should be The FreeBSD project uses man pages [...] - not still,
which reads like The FreeBSD project still uses those old
fashioned man pages, but will abandon them soon in favour of
a GUI-driven help system that is used via Internet. :-)


are you sure it won't? at least i wish so, as most old fashioned 
software solutions are best.



Returning to the manpages,


putting it simply it works properly here.

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/4 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 Polytropon wrote:
 It should be The FreeBSD project uses man pages [...] - not still,
 which reads like The FreeBSD project still uses those old
 fashioned man pages, but will abandon them soon in favour of
 a GUI-driven help system that is used via Internet. :-)

 are you sure it won't? at least i wish so, as most old fashioned software
 solutions are best.

 Returning to the manpages,

 putting it simply it works properly here.



Er, yeah, i think man pages are the best solution too, and I apologise
for appearing to look down on them. I can't *stand* info manuals,
they're clunky and bloated.

Also, I meant principal form, not principle. Sorry!

Chris

PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman?

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Thursday 04 June 2009 11:20:24 am Chris Rees wrote:

 PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman?

I like them *in their place*.  Can you imagine how long the man page for GCC 
would be?  IMHO, though, info pages are only tolerable within Emacs. 
-- 
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman?

I don't, it's much easier to just type man something than browsing through 
big document

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 05:20:24PM +0100, Chris Rees wrote:

 Er, yeah, i think man pages are the best solution too, and I apologise
 for appearing to look down on them. I can't *stand* info manuals,
 they're clunky and bloated.
 
 Chris
 
 PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman?

Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but
they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use.
Sometimes info manuals add a little for that.   But, that is more
of a content issue than a form issue.   Man pages could easily
be more forthcoming on the why and wherefor concepts.   

jerry



 -- 
 A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
 Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
 A: Top-posting.
 Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman?


Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how of use, but
they often are not so helpful on the why and wherefor of use.


for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use.


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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Polytropon
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:21:01 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar 
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote:
  PS Does _anyone_ prefer info manuals, apart from Stallman?
 
 I don't, it's much easier to just type man something than browsing through 
 big document

As far as I know, info doesn't let you search document-wide
(including all subsections, branches and crossreferences)
while man documents - being ONE document - let's you do this.

Furthermore, it's quite easy to turn a a manpage into a nice
looking PS / PDF file for printing and archiving.

zcat `man -w COMMAND` | groff -Tps -dpaper=a4 -P-pa4 -mandoc | ps2pdf - 
man.pdf

I'm not sure you can do this with info based manuals...


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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Robert Huff

Wojciech Puchar writes:

   Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how 
   of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and 
   wherefor of use.

  for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use.

It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a
_tutorial_.  It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the
q flag, or check for exit codes, or check the order of parameters
to the _fillintheblank() library call.  But if you're trying to
figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this
object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're
stupider than you actually are.
Being a tutorial may not be what man was designed for.  But
until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement
it will be used as one.


Robert Huff

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/4 Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu:
 On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 04:17:43PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote:


 Wojciech Puchar writes:

    Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how
    of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and
    wherefor of use.
 
   for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use.

       It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a
 _tutorial_.  It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the

 Yes, I know.   That is why some other additional for is also useful.
 I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other
 form.  Info does that a little, but still is often inadequate for
 some comprehension of the why and wherefor of something that I
 have never mucked with.

 I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a
 person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in
 question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor.

 jerry


 q flag, or check for exit codes, or check the order of parameters
 to the _fillintheblank() library call.  But if you're trying to
 figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this
 object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're
 stupider than you actually are.
       Being a tutorial may not be what man was designed for.  But
 until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement
 it will be used as one.


                               Robert Huff



Info is horrible to use as a quick reference, because as Polytropon
said earlier, you can't just dive in to get something specific. The
info is split into (arbitrary) sections, through which you have to
tread, and jump around hyperlinks all over.

But then I've never really got on with lynx, either.

Chris

-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar


It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a
_tutorial_.  It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the


Handbook is a tutorial. And looking at files in /bin, /sbin/ etc.. and 
doing man was my way of learning unix years ago.



to the _fillintheblank() library call.  But if you're trying to
figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this
object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're
stupider than you actually are.


man Xorg
man xorg.conf

what's wrong?


until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement

text-only is important.

Xorg is not part of FreeBSD, not always work, may be not wanted in many 
cases and finally .. there are no need for any graphics to read text

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a
person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in
question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor.


What's wrong in FreeBSD handbook and many different paper books available 
about unix? Actually not that many, but still there are available about 
design of unix.


There is no need for FreeBSD book as long as books about unix exists, 
and there is FreeBSD handbook.

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

What's wrong in FreeBSD handbook and many different paper books available
about unix? Actually not that many, but still there are available about
design of unix.


FreeBSD is really much more than the base OS.
Even though it is divided in to base and ports, it is really all
of them together.


port subsystem, but not ported programs. The same way as eg. Corel Draw 
isn't part of micro-soft windows

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 04:17:43PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote:

 
 Wojciech Puchar writes:
 
Well, man pages are good at formally documenting the how 
of use, but they often are not so helpful on the why and 
wherefor of use.
 
   for me it's exactly for this - to know how and why to use.
 
   It is important to understand man is a _reference_, not a
 _tutorial_.  It's great if you need to refresh your memory of the

Yes, I know.   That is why some other additional for is also useful.
I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other
form.  Info does that a little, but still is often inadequate for
some comprehension of the why and wherefor of something that I 
have never mucked with.

I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a 
person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in
question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor.

jerry


 q flag, or check for exit codes, or check the order of parameters
 to the _fillintheblank() library call.  But if you're trying to
 figure out how to do X, or even how to do X correctly using this
 object ... many of the pages can leave you with the feeling you're
 stupider than you actually are.
   Being a tutorial may not be what man was designed for.  But
 until there's a designated and widely promoted text-only replacement
 it will be used as one.
 
 
   Robert Huff
 
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Polytropon
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:06 -0400, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:
 Yes, I know.   That is why some other additional for is also useful.
 I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other
 form. 

Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page.
Further documentation often is supplied in /usr/local/share/doc
and /usr/local/share/examples - available locally.




-- 
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From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 11:16:05PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:

 On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:06 -0400, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:
  Yes, I know.   That is why some other additional for is also useful.
  I don't really propose changing man, but do often wish for some other
  form. 
 
 Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page.
 Further documentation often is supplied in /usr/local/share/doc
 and /usr/local/share/examples - available locally.

Something that is helpful in understanding the formal language of
the man page, and should be done more.  But it is not quite a why 
and wherefor.

jerry

 
 -- 
 Polytropon
 From Magdeburg, Germany
 Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:06:55AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 I am not sure a 'tutorial' is it either because they tend to take a
 person through a couple of particular tasks using the item in
 question, but still not discuss much of the why and wherefor.
 
 What's wrong in FreeBSD handbook and many different paper books available 
 about unix? Actually not that many, but still there are available about 
 design of unix.

FreeBSD is really much more than the base OS.
Even though it is divided in to base and ports, it is really all
of them together.

jerry


 
 There is no need for FreeBSD book as long as books about unix exists, 
 and there is FreeBSD handbook.
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Polytropon
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:04:19 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar 
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote:
 text-only is important.
 
 Xorg is not part of FreeBSD, not always work, may be not wanted in many 
 cases and finally .. there are no need for any graphics to read text

maybe it's worth emphasizing that manpages in the text only
form are the best solution for users with disabilities. A blind
user can easily browse (read through) a manpage on his Braille
output system, or have it read to him with a speech synthesizer.
Because the text in the manpage is continous (no subsectioning
and branching across different documents), the flow of reading
is much easier and requires less interaction.

The text only method describes how things ARE, not how things
LOOK LIKE, which seems to be the common way of modern documenting
using screenshots that show pictures of a screen, and you need
many of those pictures to describe a certain process, which
often makes it look like a children's book. :-)



-- 
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From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

cases and finally .. there are no need for any graphics to read text


maybe it's worth emphasizing that manpages in the text only
form are the best solution for users with disabilities.


I actually know a blind man. But he has to use windoze+putty to be able to 
use FreeBSD - because textreader software works only that way.


There are no braile style text terminals IMHO.


The text only method describes how things ARE, not how things
LOOK LIKE, which seems to be the common way of modern documenting


The funny things in today GUI's are situation like buttons with text AND 
icons.


Looks like micro-soft and friends do really care of third-world people.
When someone can't read, he/she have icon to help.
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Polytropon
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 01:08:28 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar 
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote:
 I actually know a blind man. But he has to use windoze+putty to be able to 
 use FreeBSD - because textreader software works only that way.
 
 There are no braile style text terminals IMHO.

I've seen them, used in conjunction with DOS. But that was
many years ago. They hooked somewhere into the GPU's output
pipeline (after the GPU, prior to the CRT). A slider on the
side allowed to select which text lines to put on Braille,
one or two lines.

1234567890
QWERTZUIOP
ABCDEFGHKL + up/down
YXCVBNM,.- |
   |
:.:..:.:.: ---+

The Braille output was 1x80 or 2x80. For outputs with less
colums, 1x40 or 2x40, an additional horizontal slider was
added.



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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

The Braille output was 1x80 or 2x80. For outputs with less
colums, 1x40 or 2x40, an additional horizontal slider was
added.


RS-232 connected braile terminal would be THAT SIMPLE. Really nobody 
wanted to make moneyincredible.

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-04 Thread Robert Huff

Polytropon writes:

  Many programs contain an EXAMPLES section in the man page.

s/Many/Some/


Robert Huff

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Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Polytropon
I'm looking to an existing way to output a date in the format
YY/DDD, where YY is the year (last two digits) and DDD is the
of the year, starting from 1, preceeded by zeroes if needed,
and /DDD, where  is the year with four digits, such
as 2009-01-01 would be 09/001, 2009-02-01 would be 2009/032.

I've read man date and man strftime, and it didn't look
like this is already built in.

What am I missing?

If it's not invented yet, I'll do this on my own, but maybe
I don't need to re-invent the wheel. :-)




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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 04:03:14 pm Polytropon wrote:

 I'm looking to an existing way to output a date in the format
 YY/DDD, where YY is the year (last two digits) and DDD is the
 of the year, starting from 1, preceeded by zeroes if needed,
 and /DDD, where  is the year with four digits, such
 as 2009-01-01 would be 09/001, 2009-02-01 would be 2009/032.

Like this?

$ date +'%y/%j'
09/154
$ date +'%Y/%j'
2009/154
-- 
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Wojciech Puchar

as 2009-01-01 would be 09/001, 2009-02-01 would be 2009/032.

I've read man date and man strftime, and it didn't look
like this is already built in.

What am I missing?

If it's not invented yet, I'll do this on my own, but maybe
I don't need to re-invent the wheel. :-)


#include stdio.h
#include time.h
main(int argc,char **argv) {
 time_t tmp1=time(0);
 struct tm tmp2;
 localtime_r(tmp1,tmp2);
 if(argc1)
  printf(%02d,(tmp2.tm_year/100)+19);
 printf(%02d/%03d\n,tmp2.tm_year%100,tmp2.tm_yday+1);
 return 0;
};



started with no arguments gives YY/DDD, with any argument - /DDD

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Polytropon
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:07:11 -0500, Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com wrote:
 Like this?
 
 $ date +'%y/%j'
 09/154
 $ date +'%Y/%j'
 2009/154

Exactly. After re-reading man strftime, I really found it
mentioned there:

 %jis replaced by the day of the year as a decimal number (001-366).

Would be nice to have this in man date, too. :-)




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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 04:52:19 pm Polytropon wrote:

 Exactly. After re-reading man strftime, I really found it
 mentioned there:

  %jis replaced by the day of the year as a decimal number
 (001-366).

 Would be nice to have this in man date, too. :-)

Well, I see the point of documenting it in one canonical location, and 
pointing everything else at that location (instead of having to maintain every 
related man page every time it's updated).
-- 
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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Polytropon
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:00:45 -0500, Kirk Strauser k...@strauser.com wrote:
 Well, I see the point of documenting it in one canonical location, and 
 pointing everything else at that location (instead of having to maintain 
 every 
 related man page every time it's updated).

I really shoud have paid more attention to strftime manual,
allthough I noticed it in the text of man date, saying:

 The format string may contain any of the conversion specifications
 described in the strftime(3) manual page, as well as any arbitrary text.

And it was mentioned in SEE ALSO. This is how I got from
man date to man strftime where I should have recognized
the correct answer.

Life is hard if you can't read properly. :-)



PS. I love FreeBSD for its excellent documentation. Can't tell
something similar about Linux, sadly.


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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Wojciech Puchar




PS. I love FreeBSD for its excellent documentation. Can't tell
   something similar about Linux, sadly.


---
This manual is no longer maintained. It may contain wrong informations. 
Use textinfo or even better out webpage

---

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Re: Date representation as YY/DDD or YYYY/DDD

2009-06-03 Thread Kirk Strauser

Ignore him please.

Sent from my iPod
--  
Kirk


On Jun 3, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl 
 wrote:






PS. I love FreeBSD for its excellent documentation. Can't tell
  something similar about Linux, sadly.


---
This manual is no longer maintained. It may contain wrong  
informations. Use textinfo or even better out webpage

---


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