Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-03 Thread Reid Linnemann
Written by Wojciech Puchar on 06/03/09 15:15

 I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing at your hypocritical
 observation here. The whole reason this tangled mess of threads even
 exists is because you were aggressive in your own response to the
 potential donor.

 That's all I have to say. The sooner this thread and its godforsaken
 stepchildren die, the better.


 so stop posting and shut up about being aggressive to potential
 donor==real spammer.

I don't see why I should accept that order. You have no supporters of
your rude and outlandish behavior, and you get worse with each
criticism. You do not represent FreeBSD, the FreeBSD foundation, or the
freebsd-questions mailing list. You can have whatever ridiculous
opinions you want, and I and others can rebut them to our heart's
content, but do not presume that you have some right or privilege to
tell anyone on this list to shut up and stop posting. Thank you.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-03 Thread Reid Linnemann
Written by Wojciech Puchar on 06/02/09 18:01
 Some people may want both, but well you can't have everything. It's not
 possible to everyone will agree with everyone on mailing list, and with
 every potential new user.

 I know that disagreeing is inevitable.  My position is that a pleasant
 tone would be nice.
 
 Mine too. What i really don't like here sometimes are lack of
 discussion, just agressive answers from some people.


I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing at your hypocritical
observation here. The whole reason this tangled mess of threads even
exists is because you were aggressive in your own response to the
potential donor.

That's all I have to say. The sooner this thread and its godforsaken
stepchildren die, the better.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-03 Thread Wojciech Puchar

donor==real spammer.


I don't see why I should accept that order. You have no supporters of
your rude and outlandish behavior, and you get worse with each


all your opinions


criticism. You do not represent FreeBSD, the FreeBSD foundation, or the
freebsd-questions mailing list. You can have whatever ridiculous
opinions you want, and I and others can rebut them to our heart's
content, but do not presume that you have some right or privilege to
tell anyone on this list to shut up and stop posting. Thank you.



I replied to you privately, and you said about stopping that thread.

Yet - you forwarded this on public.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Ruben de Groot
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 01:08:30AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar typed:
 
 I still cannot understand why you - an active, experienced and
 knowledgeable FBSD user - would want to scare off potential donors for the
 
 once again please reread that post. it wasn't even potential donor, but 
 potential advert buyer. But if i'm really wrong, i will mail him and say 
 that he can buy advert on FreeBSD webpage for 100$.

I just re-read it.

1. Monthly sponsoring of around 50 to 100 USD 

That's *monthly*. It's not insubstantial as you keep implying, and it even shows
commitment, not a one-time shot. Hardly spam in my book.

What we ask for in return for our sponsorships is a short mentioning on the 
site somewhere with a link to our website. 

They don't want an advert but a link. That's what you get for 5000 USD/year on

http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml

So, instead of being pissed on, they might have been persuaded to pay a little 
more, get their link and help the project as a whole.

Missed opportunity.

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar


http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml

So, instead of being pissed on, they might have been persuaded to pay a little
more, get their link and help the project as a whole.


That's what i told - add two zeroes to be advertised.


Missed opportunity.


sure not.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Peter Giessel
 
On Tuesday, June 02, 2009, at 07:23AM, Wojciech Puchar 
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote:

 http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml

 So, instead of being pissed on, they might have been persuaded to pay a 
 little
 more, get their link and help the project as a whole.

That's what i told - add two zeroes to be advertised.

I can't resist.  The lack of math is killing me:

ONE zero.  ONE (1) ONE zero.

12 months/year * 50/month = $600/year
12 months/year * 100/month = $1200/year

$600/year / $5000/year = 0.12
$1200/year / $5000/year = 0.24 (or about a quarter of what is needed
for a link).

$417/month = $5004/year.

 Missed opportunity.

sure not.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

I can't resist.  The lack of math is killing me:

ONE zero.  ONE (1) ONE zero.

12 months/year * 50/month = $600/year
12 months/year * 100/month = $1200/year

$600/year / $5000/year = 0.12
$1200/year / $5000/year = 0.24 (or about a quarter of what is needed
for a link).

$417/month = $5004/year.


You believe he will pay for 4 years?


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Re: Math/Quote (Was: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD))

2009-06-02 Thread Kevin Monceaux
On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 07:48:40PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 $417/month = $5004/year.

 You believe he will pay for 4 years?

This thread is starting to remind me of a quote:

You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common.  They don't alter their views to fit the facts.  They
alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if
you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

-- Doctor Who


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla!!!

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RE: Math/Quote (Was: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD))

2009-06-02 Thread Gary Gatten
My Mom always told me if you ignore things long enough they'll go away,
so I've been trying to do that with several of these infinite mutating
threads.  That quote though is some funny $hit!  I'm gonna print it out
on a plotter and hang it in my cube!

-Original Message-
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org
[mailto:owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Monceaux
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:35 PM
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Math/Quote (Was: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD))

On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 07:48:40PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 $417/month = $5004/year.

 You believe he will pay for 4 years?

This thread is starting to remind me of a quote:

You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
common.  They don't alter their views to fit the facts.  They
alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if
you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

-- Doctor Who


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla!!!

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Re: Math/Quote (Was: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD))

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

This thread is starting to remind me of a quote:

   You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in
   common.  They don't alter their views to fit the facts.  They
   alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if
   you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

if you say i alter the facts just tell me about lost opportunity of 
sponsoring - did i prevent anyhow FreeBSD owners to talk to this 
potential sponsor to talk with him?


Maybe they even did. But it doesn't change my opinion about it's mail 
being something close to spam. that's all.


And many people's problem here is that they just can't accept other people 
right to show their opinion. If it's too different from their then it's 
important that thread is off-topic. If it's not - it's fine.


That's why i opted (and still do) for moderation. Lets eliminate ALL 
off-topic thread.


If not - then please accept every people right to present their opinion.
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Re: Math/Quote (Was: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD))

2009-06-02 Thread Jerry
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:44:01 -0500
Gary Gatten ggat...@waddell.com wrote:

My Mom always told me if you ignore things long enough they'll go away,
so I've been trying to do that with several of these infinite mutating
threads.  That quote though is some funny $hit!  I'm gonna print it out
on a plotter and hang it in my cube!

Yes, it is from the Jan. 1977 - from The Face of Evil episode, written
by Chris Boucher. I have it hanging in my office.


-- 
Jerry
ges...@yahoo.com

To teach is to learn.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature


Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/2 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 I can't resist.  The lack of math is killing me:

 ONE zero.  ONE (1) ONE zero.

 12 months/year * 50/month = $600/year
 12 months/year * 100/month = $1200/year

 $600/year / $5000/year = 0.12
 $1200/year / $5000/year = 0.24 (or about a quarter of what is needed
 for a link).

 $417/month = $5004/year.

 You believe he will pay for 4 years?


No... he is suggesting quadrupling the amount.

Big clue:

 $417/month = $5004/year.

Chris



-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

You believe he will pay for 4 years?



No... he is suggesting quadrupling the amount.


so we end in what i suggested in the beginning - 5-10 thousands.
just added option to pay by instalments

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Peter Giessel
On Tuesday, June 02, 2009, at 12:44PM, Wojciech Puchar 
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote:
 You believe he will pay for 4 years?


 No... he is suggesting quadrupling the amount.

so we end in what i suggested in the beginning - 5-10 thousands.
just added option to pay by instalments

The original poster several days ago suggested installments.  His original post
suggested $50-$100/month.  That is $600-$1200/year.  You repeatedly said that he
would need to add two zeros.  Adding two zeros would be $60,000 - 
$120,000/year.

This is not accurate.  Adding less than one zero would be more than sufficient 
to
obtain a link.

Instead of the original poster's range of $50-$100/month, the minimum amount 
needed
for a link is $417/month.  A modest increase over what the original poster 
suggested,
not 100 times what the original poster suggested as you repeatedly stated.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

just added option to pay by instalments


The original poster several days ago suggested installments.  His original post
suggested $50-$100/month.  That is $600-$1200/year.  You repeatedly said that he
would need to add two zeros.  Adding two zeros would be $60,000 - 
$120,000/year.


Yes - i missed this monthly and sorry for this.


Instead of the original poster's range of $50-$100/month, the minimum amount 
needed
for a link is $417/month.  A modest increase over what the original poster 
suggested,
not 100 times what the original poster suggested as you repeatedly stated.


It would be very nice for people to just say about this at the beginning.

All i suggested was that 5-10 thousands are needed to get real advert on 
main site, which i repeated lots of times. Finally it was confirmed!


Wouldn't be much easier to just tell this instead of flamewars, attacks 
and using me to relieve one's personal mental problems?


Not for me, as i don't care about such kind of answers, but for everyone 
else reading this?


Or - completete nonsense - talking about lost opportunity 
of sponsoring.


Do you really mean i have enough power to just dumb any sponsors 
(potential, not potential) by writing a post on public mailing list?


Even at first post i wrote that i'm not FreeBSD owners and they will 
decide.


Maybe if i would be the man that gives 5$ PER YEAR i would have such a 
power. But i rather think not.

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

...
Even at first post i wrote that i'm not FreeBSD owners and they will
decide.


We're all human.  The potential sponsors might have missed the line
where you said that you were not an owner.


this way - nobody should write anyone. there is always a line that missed 
- completely changes a sense of sentence.




Just as you missed the bit where they were interested in monthly
contributions.


yes.





Do you really mean i have enough power to just dumb any sponsors
(potential, not potential) by writing a post on public mailing
list?


Any person might look at people in the community and decide that they
don't want to be a part of that community after all.  That's why it
would be nice if everyone could be courteous and helpful.

I'm not specifically referring to you, Mr. Puchar.  I'm talking about
the general case.


You are right. But do you try to say that we should think about 
consequences for potential sponsoring every word we say?!


Is FreeBSD FREE SOFTWARE or commercial product that's selling some way?

If first - then we should not care how much more/less money people will 
pay as a gift every time we post.


If second - then please Owners declare it clearly and just add statement 
about this.


Anyway - Do users of any commercial product support list must think if 
their words will lower the selling of the product? i don't think so.



But if i'm not right - please add on FreeBSD webpage/mailing list info

Every sentence that can potentially lower the income or core team are 
punished with 10 lashes. Erik Osterholm will be the executor.



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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Chris Rees
2009/6/2 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
...

 Do you really mean i have enough power to just dumb any sponsors
 (potential, not potential) by writing a post on public mailing
 list?

 Any person might look at people in the community and decide that they
 don't want to be a part of that community after all.  That's why it
 would be nice if everyone could be courteous and helpful.

 I'm not specifically referring to you, Mr. Puchar.  I'm talking about
 the general case.

 You are right. But do you try to say that we should think about consequences
 for potential sponsoring every word we say?!

 Is FreeBSD FREE SOFTWARE or commercial product that's selling some way?

 If first - then we should not care how much more/less money people will pay
 as a gift every time we post.

 If second - then please Owners declare it clearly and just add statement
 about this.

 Anyway - Do users of any commercial product support list must think if their
 words will lower the selling of the product? i don't think so.


 But if i'm not right - please add on FreeBSD webpage/mailing list info

 Every sentence that can potentially lower the income or core team are
 punished with 10 lashes. Erik Osterholm will be the executor.


Or, you could see from the attitude of the users that they don't
deserve your hard earned cash, and can carry on using an underfunded
operating system TO MAKE MONEY. Yes, that's you. I bet you don't talk
to YOUR customers like that.

Chris



-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Erik Osterholm
On Tue, Jun 02, 2009 at 11:20:23PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  just added option to pay by instalments
 
  The original poster several days ago suggested installments.  His
  original post suggested $50-$100/month.  That is $600-$1200/year.
  You repeatedly said that he would need to add two zeros.  Adding
  two zeros would be $60,000 - $120,000/year.
 
 Yes - i missed this monthly and sorry for this.
 ... 
 Even at first post i wrote that i'm not FreeBSD owners and they will 
 decide.

We're all human.  The potential sponsors might have missed the line
where you said that you were not an owner.

Just as you missed the bit where they were interested in monthly
contributions.


 Do you really mean i have enough power to just dumb any sponsors 
 (potential, not potential) by writing a post on public mailing
 list?

Any person might look at people in the community and decide that they
don't want to be a part of that community after all.  That's why it
would be nice if everyone could be courteous and helpful.

I'm not specifically referring to you, Mr. Puchar.  I'm talking about
the general case.  Like it or not, people who post on a mailing list
or forum of an open source project often make or break the project and
influence people's decisions to use support the project.  Ubuntu's
success is credited, in part, to the wonderful community.

Erik
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Any person might look at people in the community and decide that they
don't want to be a part of that community after all.  That's why it


Just reread this and, ... don't you think it's quite like a good filter?

I don't talk about sponsors, but a new potential users.

If someone needs good unix, he/she will try it and join us. As i said 
before if he/she agrees with maillist users personal opinions doesn't 
matter at all. Rather if you can get answer to questions about FreeBSD.

You can, even easier if some moderation would be present here.

If someone needs to feel good, feel the spirit instead of good 
software etc... Let's better use Ubuntu or whatever.


Some people may want both, but well you can't have everything. It's not 
possible to everyone will agree with everyone on mailing list, and with 
every potential new user.


This keeps the system's quality high.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Erik Osterholm
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:03:06AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  ...
  Even at first post i wrote that i'm not FreeBSD owners and they will
  decide.
 
  We're all human.  The potential sponsors might have missed the line
  where you said that you were not an owner.
 
 this way - nobody should write anyone. there is always a line that missed 
 - completely changes a sense of sentence.
 
I'm sure you know that this is an absurd proposition.


  Do you really mean i have enough power to just dumb any sponsors
  (potential, not potential) by writing a post on public mailing
  list?
 
  Any person might look at people in the community and decide that
  they don't want to be a part of that community after all.  That's
  why it would be nice if everyone could be courteous and helpful.
 
  I'm not specifically referring to you, Mr. Puchar.  I'm talking
  about the general case.
 
 You are right. But do you try to say that we should think about
 consequences for potential sponsoring every word we say?!
 
 Is FreeBSD FREE SOFTWARE or commercial product that's selling some
 way?
 
 If first - then we should not care how much more/less money people
 will pay as a gift every time we post.
 
 If second - then please Owners declare it clearly and just add
 statement about this.

Isn't there a middle-ground?  Where we can care about how we present
ourselves, yet we do not feel beholden to the possible sponsors?

A good example would be to always respond kindly and appropriately,
yet not yield to demands made on us by others.

 Anyway - Do users of any commercial product support list must think
 if their words will lower the selling of the product? i don't think
 so.

They probably care less about the product.  I personally want FreeBSD
to succeed because it is, in many ways, superior to all of the
alternatives.  As such, I hope that when I discuss it, I present it in
a good light.  For example, if someone asks me, How do you do X in
FreeBSD?, I rarely suggest that the go read the fine manual.
 
 
 But if i'm not right - please add on FreeBSD webpage/mailing list
 info
 
 Every sentence that can potentially lower the income or core team
 are punished with 10 lashes. Erik Osterholm will be the executor.

More absurdity.

Erik
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Erik Osterholm
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 12:34:55AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  Any person might look at people in the community and decide that they
  don't want to be a part of that community after all.  That's why it
 
 Just reread this and, ... don't you think it's quite like a good filter?
 
 I don't talk about sponsors, but a new potential users.
 
 If someone needs good unix, he/she will try it and join us. As i said 
 before if he/she agrees with maillist users personal opinions doesn't 
 matter at all. Rather if you can get answer to questions about FreeBSD.
 You can, even easier if some moderation would be present here.

Considering that the mailing list is one of the few places where
support exists, I don't know that I can agree with you.

Also, I don't think that an artificial filter or barrier-to-entry is
desirable, in general.  If a person needs good unix, but they don't
learn well by reading technical documentation, a good community can be
highly beneficial.  Personally, I wouldn't want to discriminate
against users for this.


 Some people may want both, but well you can't have everything. It's not 
 possible to everyone will agree with everyone on mailing list, and with 
 every potential new user.

I know that disagreeing is inevitable.  My position is that a pleasant
tone would be nice.  An example of a harsh tone (one which I haven't
seen on here) is telling someone to RTFM.  Another example (which I
have seen on here) is people who just enjoy arguing turning reasonable
threads into flamewars.


 This keeps the system's quality high.

I politely disagree.  I doubt that a harsh community does anything to
maintain a high-quality system.

Erik
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

this way - nobody should write anyone. there is always a line that missed
- completely changes a sense of sentence.


I'm sure you know that this is an absurd proposition.


It's just explanation. You can't write anything that will be absolutely 
resistible to misreading.




If second - then please Owners declare it clearly and just add
statement about this.


Isn't there a middle-ground?  Where we can care about how we present
ourselves, yet we do not feel beholden to the possible sponsors?

A good example would be to always respond kindly and appropriately,


There is some difference between responding kindly, and shutting up being 
aware that your opinion may be not accepted by potential new users.


If you are for the second - you propose that any non-standard opinion 
should not be presented.


Actually - this way FreeBSD should cease to exist, because it's 
based on non-standard opinions about how operating system should be done - 
contrary to standard which define things like micro-soft windows.



Anyway - Do users of any commercial product support list must think
if their words will lower the selling of the product? i don't think
so.


They probably care less about the product.  I personally want FreeBSD
to succeed because it is


Why you want it to succeed? IT ALREADY DID!

You should want it only to be kept that way - keeping the quality.


, in many ways, superior to all of the
alternatives.


No - in many ways it does not have alternatives at all.


 As such, I hope that when I discuss it, I present it in
a good light.  For example, if someone asks me, How do you do X in
FreeBSD?, I rarely suggest that the go read the fine manual.


And i do - when the answer is clearly readable in manual. So i help reader 
can both get answer to his question and learn how to use man(1)



Every sentence that can potentially lower the income or core team
are punished with 10 lashes. Erik Osterholm will be the executor.


More absurdity.


Really no sense of humour?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-06-02 Thread Wojciech Puchar

matter at all. Rather if you can get answer to questions about FreeBSD.
You can, even easier if some moderation would be present here.


Considering that the mailing list is one of the few places where
support exists, I don't know that I can agree with you.

Also, I don't think that an artificial filter or barrier-to-entry is
desirable, in general.


Definitely is. It saves our time and their time.


but they don't learn well by reading technical documentation


Then he/she don't need unix, or at least will not ever be able to use it 
without ability to read the documentation.



Some people may want both, but well you can't have everything. It's not
possible to everyone will agree with everyone on mailing list, and with
every potential new user.


I know that disagreeing is inevitable.  My position is that a pleasant
tone would be nice.


Mine too. What i really don't like here sometimes are lack of discussion, 
just agressive answers from some people.



 An example of a harsh tone (one which I haven't
seen on here) is telling someone to RTFM.


No it isn't if you point out WHICH manual - which i always do.


 Another example (which I
have seen on here) is people who just enjoy arguing turning reasonable
threads into flamewars.


Maybe they enjoy, but usually - they just can't resist different opinions 
and start to attack personally.





This keeps the system's quality high.


I politely disagree.  I doubt that a harsh community does anything to
maintain a high-quality system.


Why harsh? I don't understand you here.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-28 Thread Wojciech Puchar

anyway, i reread the original sponsoring offer and i think i understand
well. so - if FreeBSD team like to accept donations that way, my 100$ is
still waiting :)


I am afraid you still do not understand it. This sponsorship offer was NOT
directed to you.

did you really read my sentence.

I TOO OFFER 100$ for getting my advert on FreeBSD webpage, as he did. If 
FreeBSD core team accept this, 200$ is ready.


But i think you simply don't really want to read what i write, you better 
like to repeat the same sentences over and over again.


hope it will change
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-28 Thread Chris Rees
2009/5/28 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 anyway, i reread the original sponsoring offer and i think i understand
 well. so - if FreeBSD team like to accept donations that way, my 100$ is
 still waiting :)

 I am afraid you still do not understand it. This sponsorship offer was NOT
 directed to you.

 did you really read my sentence.

 I TOO OFFER 100$ for getting my advert on FreeBSD webpage, as he did. If
 FreeBSD core team accept this, 200$ is ready.

 But i think you simply don't really want to read what i write, you better
 like to repeat the same sentences over and over again.

 hope it will change

Actually he said:

QUOTE 
href=http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/freebsd-questions@freebsd.org/12268152.html
What we ask for in return for our sponsorships is a short mentioning
on the site somewhere with a link to our website.
/QUOTE


I took that to mean on the Sponsors' page, not the main page, and even
if it does, it is _not your place_ to tell sponsors that their
donations aren't 'good' enough.

Now please read this question and answer it:

Why did you reply to the message?

Chris



-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-28 Thread Wojciech Puchar


Actually he said:

QUOTE 
href=http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/freebsd-questions@freebsd.org/12268152.html
What we ask for in return for our sponsorships is a short mentioning
on the site somewhere with a link to our website.


so if you believe it means that he will be happy with being on list, i can 
get him back if you like ;)



I took that to mean on the Sponsors' page, not the main page, and even
if it does, it is _not your place_ to tell sponsors that their


it's UNMODERATED mailing list, so i can share my opinion.

And you are really the last person i care about when presenting my 
opinion.

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-28 Thread Chris Rees
2009/5/28 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:

 Actually he said:

 QUOTE
 href=http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/freebsd-questions@freebsd.org/12268152.html
 What we ask for in return for our sponsorships is a short mentioning
 on the site somewhere with a link to our website.

 so if you believe it means that he will be happy with being on list, i can
 get him back if you like ;)

 I took that to mean on the Sponsors' page, not the main page, and even
 if it does, it is _not your place_ to tell sponsors that their

 it's UNMODERATED mailing list, so i can share my opinion.

 And you are really the last person i care about when presenting my opinion.


So are you going to answer my question?

Why did you answer his question?

Chris


-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-28 Thread Wojciech Puchar

it's UNMODERATED mailing list, so i can share my opinion.

And you are really the last person i care about when presenting my opinion.



So are you going to answer my question?

Why did you answer his question?


already did.
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-28 Thread Paul Schmehl
Would all the children fighting in this thread please go suck your binkies and 
leave the list alone.  This has gone on for far too long, has worn out any 
entertainment value it ever had and is clearly sucking up valuable bandwidth.


And yes, I'm well aware you'll feel compelled to respond, so all responses will 
go to /dev/null.


Grow up already.

--
Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst
As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions
are my own and not those of my employer.
***
Check the headers before clicking on Reply.

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Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Glen Barber
This is enough.

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Wojciech Puchar
woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote:

 It is NOT an opinion that you were rude in your reply, and it is NOT
 an opinion that it's not your place to advise on how much constitutes
 an 'acceptable' or 'sufficient' donation.

 You were just plain wrong in doing so, and you should either quietly
 stop replying defending your actions, or even perhaps admit you were
 wrong and apologise.

 just another funny post - it's not an opinion, it's a fact BECAUSE YOU
 DECIDED SO.

 please post more :)

You continuously do this.  You post responses to posts that (as
previously stated) scare off users and, in this case, a potential
sponsor.

You are then told that your reply was unnecessary and unwarranted,
then you continue to post snide remarks and taunt those telling you
that you are wrong.

Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
unsubscribing from this list.

-- 
Glen Barber
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Wojciech Puchar

You are then told that your reply was unnecessary and unwarranted,
then you continue to post snide remarks and taunt those telling you
that you are wrong.

Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
unsubscribing from this list.

PLEASE NO!

I like your posts :)
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Kirk Strauser
On Wednesday 27 May 2009 11:44:03 am Glen Barber wrote:

 Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
 unsubscribing from this list.

Don't.  He's hardly the only PITA in support mailing lists.  Just add him to 
your killfile and move on.
-- 
Kirk Strauser
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Zbigniew Szalbot
 Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
 unsubscribing from this list.

Glen - please don't. I have never met so many supportive people as on this
list. I do hope Wojtek will just stop doing this but even if he doesn't,
we should not let such people determine the quality of this list.

Just my 2c.

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
unsubscribing from this list.


Glen - please don't.


Me too! Don't unsubscribe :)

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Manolis Kiagias
Glen Barber wrote:

 just another funny post - it's not an opinion, it's a fact BECAUSE YOU
 DECIDED SO.

 please post more :)
 

 You continuously do this.  You post responses to posts that (as
 previously stated) scare off users and, in this case, a potential
 sponsor.

 You are then told that your reply was unnecessary and unwarranted,
 then you continue to post snide remarks and taunt those telling you
 that you are wrong.

 Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
 unsubscribing from this list.

   

Glen: Please don't!

And Wojciech, is there any way we can convince you to show a more
positive attitude to the people on this list?
I believe you have the capacity of helping people, why don't you show a
little more positive energy.
You do get really aggressive at times.  Please take a few minutes to 
reconsider  your answers before hitting  'Send'.

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Thanks to your attitude, actions, and demeanor, I will be
unsubscribing from this list.




Glen: Please don't!


I agree.



And Wojciech, is there any way we can convince you to show a more
positive attitude to the people on this list?


it is positive. actually very positive :)

While being attacked for almost EVERY my opinion just because is not 
mainstream, or because i have opinion at all, i just respond normally.


isn't it positive?

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Zbigniew Szalbot
 While being attacked for almost EVERY my opinion just because is not
 mainstream, or because i have opinion at all, i just respond normally.

Wojtek - I also think you have the capacity to help and you often do. But
don't pretend to be speaking for the FreeBSD team because you are doing
them disfavour. This was a question addressed to them but asked on this
list perhaps because the OP did not find another way of contacting the
team. Is it so hard to understand? Please!

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot
www.fairtrade.net.pl

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Wojciech Puchar

mainstream, or because i have opinion at all, i just respond normally.


Wojtek - I also think you have the capacity to help and you often do. But
don't pretend to be speaking for the FreeBSD team because you are doing

reread my posts. i didn't speak for them and i said that i'm not them.
i AS USUAL tell what i think.

And YOU just don't accept this because it's completely different point of 
view than yours. You - like most people - react with fear/aggression when
hearing/reading something completely agains the knowledge you've been put 
to the brain for years. Who is right doesn't matter at all that cases.


I understand this because is natural reaction, often not fully conscious.

As you - and few other people - can not use arguments just attacks, it 
make the list polluted.


And - back to that funny sponsor - I can only do favour sending them 
out. Can't you see it's semi-automatic posts to whatever he found, because 
he just want to advertise yourself and his webpage improvement services?

(improvement==adding tons of flash, javas...t etc.)

He wanted his banner on FreeBSD site for 100$

Or maybe i'm wrong - if so, please Core Team to put our little 
company's link on my page and i will send 100$ today. Don't forget to give 
me account number.


Even more - i will find 10 friends to do the same. Just 10 links with 
small letters ;) and 1000$ is yours.


The trick of doing ANY business, and non-profit work is to NOT TAKE EVERY 
CRAP, just because you see money. I'm sure you already know it in your 
business, so why can't you see this here?

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Chris Rees
2009/5/27 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl:
 mainstream, or because i have opinion at all, i just respond normally.

 Wojtek - I also think you have the capacity to help and you often do. But
 don't pretend to be speaking for the FreeBSD team because you are doing

 reread my posts. i didn't speak for them and i said that i'm not them.
 i AS USUAL tell what i think.

 And YOU just don't accept this because it's completely different point of
 view than yours. You - like most people - react with fear/aggression when
 hearing/reading something completely agains the knowledge you've been put to
 the brain for years. Who is right doesn't matter at all that cases.

 I understand this because is natural reaction, often not fully conscious.

 As you - and few other people - can not use arguments just attacks, it make
 the list polluted.

 And - back to that funny sponsor - I can only do favour sending them out.
 Can't you see it's semi-automatic posts to whatever he found, because he
 just want to advertise yourself and his webpage improvement services?
 (improvement==adding tons of flash, javas...t etc.)

 He wanted his banner on FreeBSD site for 100$

 Or maybe i'm wrong - if so, please Core Team to put our little company's
 link on my page and i will send 100$ today. Don't forget to give me account
 number.

 Even more - i will find 10 friends to do the same. Just 10 links with small
 letters ;) and 1000$ is yours.

 The trick of doing ANY business, and non-profit work is to NOT TAKE EVERY
 CRAP, just because you see money. I'm sure you already know it in your
 business, so why can't you see this here?

But it's NOT YOUR BUSINESS. It also wasn't automated.

Chris


-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Charlie Kester

On Wed 27 May 2009 at 09:44:03 PDT Glen Barber wrote:

This is enough.


I agree.  


It is characteristic of flamewars that the participants are no longer
talking about anything except each other.  It's entirely off-topic.

I don't know which is more tiresome, Wojciech's edgy remarks or the
constant carping about the way he expresses himself.

Ad hominem: attacking the man (or his manner of speaking) rather than
the substance of his statements.

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 09:21:19PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 mainstream, or because i have opinion at all, i just respond normally.
 
 Wojtek - I also think you have the capacity to help and you often do. But
 don't pretend to be speaking for the FreeBSD team because you are doing
 reread my posts. i didn't speak for them and i said that i'm not them.
 i AS USUAL tell what i think.
 
 And YOU just don't accept this because it's completely different point of 
 view than yours. You - like most people - react with fear/aggression when
 hearing/reading something completely agains the knowledge you've been put 
 to the brain for years. Who is right doesn't matter at all that cases.
 
 I understand this because is natural reaction, often not fully conscious.
 
 As you - and few other people - can not use arguments just attacks, it 
 make the list polluted.

Sorry to wade in to this, but the reality has been and is just the
oposite.   It is m. Puchar who has been making reactionary responses
and somewhat unkind ones at that.Is it a language issue?  Or is
it a lack in self awareness/examination?

jerry



 And - back to that funny sponsor - I can only do favour sending them 
 out. Can't you see it's semi-automatic posts to whatever he found, because 
 he just want to advertise yourself and his webpage improvement services?
 (improvement==adding tons of flash, javas...t etc.)
 
 He wanted his banner on FreeBSD site for 100$
 
 Or maybe i'm wrong - if so, please Core Team to put our little 
 company's link on my page and i will send 100$ today. Don't forget to give 
 me account number.
 
 Even more - i will find 10 friends to do the same. Just 10 links with 
 small letters ;) and 1000$ is yours.
 
 The trick of doing ANY business, and non-profit work is to NOT TAKE EVERY 
 CRAP, just because you see money. I'm sure you already know it in your 
 business, so why can't you see this here?
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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Sorry to wade in to this, but the reality has been and is just the
oposite.   It is m. Puchar who has been making reactionary responses
and somewhat unkind ones at that.Is it a language issue?  Or is


this. please tell me (privately) the fragment that you read as this, 
because everything i type i try to do it with clear explanation and 
arguments, not fighting. But i'm not native english speaker of course.



He wanted his banner on FreeBSD site for 100$

Or maybe i'm wrong - if so, please Core Team to put our little
company's link on my page and i will send 100$ today. Don't forget to give
me account number.


anyway, i reread the original sponsoring offer and i think i understand 
well. so - if FreeBSD team like to accept donations that way, my 100$ is 
still waiting :)

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Zbigniew Szalbot
Hi there,

First of all, if anyone is still reading it, I apologize if I sounded
harsh but I do care about FreeBSD so it does bother me that potential
supporters are turned down. Explanation below.

 anyway, i reread the original sponsoring offer and i think i understand
 well. so - if FreeBSD team like to accept donations that way, my 100$ is
 still waiting :)

I am afraid you still do not understand it. This sponsorship offer was NOT
directed to you. Neither was it to me. I did not reply to it because it
was clearly addressed to the core team.

I still cannot understand why you - an active, experienced and
knowledgeable FBSD user - would want to scare off potential donors for the
project? Contrary to you, I work in the fundraising field and I cannot
imagine turning people down that way. Secondly, some donors often start by
making small donations but they may at some point cosinder upgrading
their level of contribution. There is nothing wrong with that.

And thirdly, I may have missed something but when did someone from the
core team say that they like to accept donations that way?

Yours,

-- 
Zbigniew Szalbot

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Re: Flamewar ( was: Sponsoring FreeBSD)

2009-05-27 Thread Wojciech Puchar

I am afraid you still do not understand it. This sponsorship offer was NOT
directed to you. Neither was it to me. I did not reply to it because it
was clearly addressed to the core team.


it was addressed to mailing list. if he would like to address it to core 
team, then he would do this!


to be clear - it was mostly spam-like post.


I still cannot understand why you - an active, experienced and
knowledgeable FBSD user - would want to scare off potential donors for the


once again please reread that post. it wasn't even potential donor, but 
potential advert buyer. But if i'm really wrong, i will mail him and say 
that he can buy advert on FreeBSD webpage for 100$.


Actually i talked with him privately so it won't be a problem.

in the same time, i will get another 100$ as it's quite cheap price for 
advert on such popular webpage!



I think you finally catched what i mean, if not - i will try to explain 
again.

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