Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Thomas Mueller]

from "O. Hartmann" ;

> Hello out there,

> well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based 
> systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in severe 
> support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a kind of Linux 
> facility to ensure having the software and tools I need for my work. I'm 
> looking for a Linux distribution that is similar handled like FreeBSD, where 
> I'm able to rebuild the whole system from sources, not even the the Linux 
> kernel, also the GNU tools and the packages. Maybe there are some people out 
> here having already taken this step.
> Any suggestion is appreciated,

> thanks in advance,

> Oliver

When I first saw that question, my first thoughts were Gentoo
http://www.gentoo.org/

Linux from Scratch
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

Lunar Linux
http://www.lunar-linux.org/

Slackware is a full Linux distribution with its own binary, not source, package 
manager that knows nothing about dependencies.

Linux does not come with a BSD-style base system, though a full distribution 
has many packages already put together and ready to install (like PC-BSD?).

>From what I could tell from the web sites, Gentoo and Lunar Linux have package 
>managers included, but Linux from Scratch doesn't.

One package manager I've thought of for Linux is NetBSD pkgsrc, which has been 
ported to many Unixes and quasi-Unixes, am not sure what to start with for 
Linux.  There is System Rescue CD, which includes gcc/GNU tools, which might 
work as a starter: I haven't tried but plan to do what you plan to do, when I 
get that new computer I've been planning on, in addition to FreeBSD and perhaps 
NetBSD. 

http://www.sysresccd.org/

Tom
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[O. Hartmann]

On 11/10/10 20:15, "C. Bergström" wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:



The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux
compatibilty.

So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.


There are some other, very serious questions. AMD calims that they
made the specs of their 3D chipset internals public.

The docs had big missing chunks which I tried to get clarification on
and got some help and then it just one day stopped

There is OpenCL as an open standard

Try to find the validation test suite.. ($$$)

, there is the CLANG/LLVM project even for FreeBSD

Apple licenses it and doesn't publish all opencl work. (or I think may
not even contribute to the opencl side at all anymore.. someone correct me)

to become the new standard compiler and, not at last, there is work
done on drivers for AMD graphics boards but there is no, not even
rudimentary, support for GPGPU. I preferr a clean open source
solution, but at the moment, it seems to be the best and easiest path
to switch to an operating system that is fully supported, even 64 bit.

Side question - Why care in the least bit about AMD? Their hw sucks and
their software is a joke.. (if you bought Evergreen I'm sorry..)


By the way - way is the hardware crap? Can you please be more specific? 
AMD claims to have a higher effective double precision throughput than 
nVidia, they also claim not having cut off most of their double 
precision capable facilities like nVidia even on their mass market 
products (but I'm not sure about that since this fact is very often 
hidden by intention). Their software doesn't really matter since I most 
FreeBSD users use the open source driver. Well, I never saw a working 64 
bit capable driver on FreeBSD, that's right.


Please do not understand this as a tricky question, I'm serious, since I 
plan to purchase new hardware for my computer at home (FreeBSD) and even 
for my lab's computer(s).


And by the way, no, I havn't bought 'Evergreen', I have much more 
disappointing HD4830 and not properly working HD4770 and HD4670 ... (not 
GPGPU capable by design).


There's no such thing as a complete open source GPGPU solution as of
today (to the best of my knowledge)

./C



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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[O. Hartmann]

On 11/10/10 20:15, "C. Bergström" wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:



The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux
compatibilty.

So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.


There are some other, very serious questions. AMD calims that they
made the specs of their 3D chipset internals public.

The docs had big missing chunks which I tried to get clarification on
and got some help and then it just one day stopped


Well, speaking of those like me, following the official statements of 
the PR units of HW venodrs like AMD and others, did not realize this. I 
never read before about this sudden stop on any list. Yes, I realize 
sometimes that things, even the great HW venodrs claim, are not that 
what they claim to be when shdding light on this. But until this second 
I believed AMD opened their specs  for the community. Well, maybe the 
trigger of opening the specs where a result of AMDs desastrous downfall 
after 2006, so today, after they got both feet on terra firma again, 
they may decide acting different ...



There is OpenCL as an open standard

Try to find the validation test suite.. ($$$)


Your point, I must confess.


, there is the CLANG/LLVM project even for FreeBSD

Apple licenses it and doesn't publish all opencl work. (or I think may
not even contribute to the opencl side at all anymore.. someone correct me)


Isn't OpenCL maintained by the Khronos Group? Apple, for instance, 
develop their own stuff on the basis of OpenCL and LLVM, but they do not 
publish back to the community, that's right. But this shouldn't be an 
excuse for the lack of support.



to become the new standard compiler and, not at last, there is work
done on drivers for AMD graphics boards but there is no, not even
rudimentary, support for GPGPU. I preferr a clean open source
solution, but at the moment, it seems to be the best and easiest path
to switch to an operating system that is fully supported, even 64 bit.

Side question - Why care in the least bit about AMD? Their hw sucks and
their software is a joke.. (if you bought Evergreen I'm sorry..)


Well, look at my first statement. Until now I believe and believed AMD 
offered more than others of their 3D specs to the open source community, 
to provide support to real open source GPU drivers. Obviously this isn't 
true anymore. But why hasn't this been made public? AMD earns a lot of 
money even from those people like me which remain in the strong 
believing that they made their contribution to the open source OS community.
But at the moment, looking at my hardware running FreeBSD, I realize 
that I have more and better running hardware based on nVidia and their 
BLOB than hardware based on AMD. But this is individual.




There's no such thing as a complete open source GPGPU solution as of
today (to the best of my knowledge)


Well, not completely open source, but there is an nVidia CUDA solution 
even for 64 Bit Linux and none for FreeBSD! And as far as I know, I can 
use it for free - assuming I run a supported Linux.


./C



Oliver

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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[C. Bergström]

O. Hartmann wrote:


The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux 
compatibilty.


So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.


There are some other, very serious questions. AMD calims that they 
made the specs of their 3D chipset internals public.
The docs had big missing chunks which I tried to get clarification on 
and got some help and then it just one day stopped

There is OpenCL as an open standard

Try to find the validation test suite.. ($$$)

, there is the CLANG/LLVM project even for FreeBSD
Apple licenses it and doesn't publish all opencl work. (or I think may 
not even contribute to the opencl side at all anymore.. someone correct me)
to become the new standard compiler and, not at last, there is work 
done on drivers for AMD graphics boards but there is no, not even 
rudimentary, support for GPGPU. I preferr a clean open source 
solution, but at the moment, it seems to be the best and easiest path 
to switch to an operating system that is fully supported, even 64 bit.
Side question - Why care in the least bit about AMD?  Their hw sucks and 
their software is a joke..  (if you bought Evergreen I'm sorry..)


There's no such thing as a complete open source GPGPU solution as of 
today (to the best of my knowledge)


./C

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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[O. Hartmann]

On 11/10/10 19:07, App Deb wrote:

2010/11/10 O. Hartmann:

Hello out there,

well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in severe
support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a kind of
Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need for my work.
I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar handled like FreeBSD,
where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from sources, not even the the
Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the packages. Maybe there are some
people out here having already taken this step.
Any suggestion is appreciated,


The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux compatibilty.

So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.


Well, 32-Bit isn't realistic in a scientific environment! There are some 
'tricks' and 'tweaks' out making CUDA working on FreeBSD with Linux 
binaries, but, simply for instance, portions of our computing system 
rely on OpenLDAP and I do have severe problems making OpenLDAP 
authorised users available to some IDL applications running on FreeBSD 
boxes within the linuxulator. This is only one small but very effective 
trap one can step into.


There are some other, very serious questions. AMD calims that they made 
the specs of their 3D chipset internals public. There is OpenCL as an 
open standard, there is the CLANG/LLVM project even for FreeBSD to 
become the new standard compiler and, not at last, there is work done on 
drivers for AMD graphics boards but there is no, not even rudimentary, 
support for GPGPU. I preferr a clean open source solution, but at the 
moment, it seems to be the best and easiest path to switch to an 
operating system that is fully supported, even 64 bit.

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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[App Deb]

2010/11/10 "C. Bergström" :
> App Deb wrote:
>>
>> 2010/11/10 O. Hartmann :
>>
>>>
>>> Hello out there,
>>>
>>> well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
>>> systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in severe
>>> support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a kind of
>>> Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need for my
>>> work.
>>> I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar handled like
>>> FreeBSD,
>>> where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from sources, not even the the
>>> Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the packages. Maybe there are some
>>> people out here having already taken this step.
>>> Any suggestion is appreciated,
>>>
>>
>> The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux
>> compatibilty.
>>
>> So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.
>>
>
> Have you tested this first hand?
>
> Is there 32bit Fermi?  (Sorry, but I don't think the HPC world can really
> live off 32bit applications)
>
> There's 2 types of code in a "cuda application" there's host code produced
> by the native compiler (gcc/intel/pathscale.. etc) and the device code..
> produced by nvidia's toolchain..  I would make a pretty nice bet that the
> nvidia userland toolchain will not compile code on freebsd right now..  (not
> be negative here, but I'm intimately familiar with it..)  Worse case you'd
> be copying code built on linux over and also the runtime libs..  (not to
> mention debugger, profiler. etc)
>
> Anyway.. as mentioned before we'll have a native working solution before the
> years end and anyone interested to help alpha/beta test is welcome to
> contact me offlist..
>
> ./C
>

No sorry I don't have any experience with cuda.

I have only tested this:
http://cuda-z.sourceforge.net/

And the linux binary seems to recognize everything under FreeBSD
(linuxulator + nvidia).

You will probably need to setup a linux toolchain to do the work. I
know this is not a good solution.
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Pierre-Luc Drouin]

I am interested to use CUDA as well for a scientific environment. What about
CUDA 64bit on FreeBSD? Is it excluded completely because of the lack of
support for Linux 64bit emulation?

Thanks!

2010/11/10 "C. Bergström" 

> App Deb wrote:
>
>> 2010/11/10 O. Hartmann :
>>
>>
>>> Hello out there,
>>>
>>> well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
>>> systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in severe
>>> support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a kind of
>>> Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need for my
>>> work.
>>> I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar handled like
>>> FreeBSD,
>>> where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from sources, not even the the
>>> Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the packages. Maybe there are some
>>> people out here having already taken this step.
>>> Any suggestion is appreciated,
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux
>> compatibilty.
>>
>> So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.
>>
>>
> Have you tested this first hand?
>
> Is there 32bit Fermi?  (Sorry, but I don't think the HPC world can really
> live off 32bit applications)
>
> There's 2 types of code in a "cuda application" there's host code produced
> by the native compiler (gcc/intel/pathscale.. etc) and the device code..
> produced by nvidia's toolchain..  I would make a pretty nice bet that the
> nvidia userland toolchain will not compile code on freebsd right now..  (not
> be negative here, but I'm intimately familiar with it..)  Worse case you'd
> be copying code built on linux over and also the runtime libs..  (not to
> mention debugger, profiler. etc)
>
> Anyway.. as mentioned before we'll have a native working solution before
> the years end and anyone interested to help alpha/beta test is welcome to
> contact me offlist..
>
> ./C
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[C. Bergström]

App Deb wrote:

2010/11/10 O. Hartmann :
  

Hello out there,

well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in severe
support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a kind of
Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need for my work.
I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar handled like FreeBSD,
where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from sources, not even the the
Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the packages. Maybe there are some
people out here having already taken this step.
Any suggestion is appreciated,



The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux compatibilty.

So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.
  

Have you tested this first hand?

Is there 32bit Fermi?  (Sorry, but I don't think the HPC world can 
really live off 32bit applications)


There's 2 types of code in a "cuda application" there's host code 
produced by the native compiler (gcc/intel/pathscale.. etc) and the 
device code.. produced by nvidia's toolchain..  I would make a pretty 
nice bet that the nvidia userland toolchain will not compile code on 
freebsd right now..  (not be negative here, but I'm intimately familiar 
with it..)  Worse case you'd be copying code built on linux over and 
also the runtime libs..  (not to mention debugger, profiler. etc)


Anyway.. as mentioned before we'll have a native working solution before 
the years end and anyone interested to help alpha/beta test is welcome 
to contact me offlist..


./C
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[App Deb]

2010/11/10 O. Hartmann :
> Hello out there,
>
> well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
> systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in severe
> support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a kind of
> Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need for my work.
> I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar handled like FreeBSD,
> where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from sources, not even the the
> Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the packages. Maybe there are some
> people out here having already taken this step.
> Any suggestion is appreciated,

The NVIDIA FreeBSD driver provides the cuda libraries for linux compatibilty.

So 32-bit Linux Cuda applications should work on FreeBSD.
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Chris Brennan]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Alejandro Imass  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Ivan Voras  wrote:
> > On 11/10/10 13:24, O. Hartmann wrote:
> >> Hello out there,
> >>
> [...]
> >
> > I think that the general opinion is that Gentoo has the closest thing to
> > that aspect of FreeBSD. Other than that, IIRC Slackware is also
> > build-friendly.
> >
>
> Slackware is actually the most similar to FBSD IMHO
>
>
I used Slackware for years ... there thing is Vanilla. They don't do things
BSDish all that much although some practices are borrowed from BSD. But on
the other hand they don't follow most GNU Conventions either  to them,
it's a logical order of things, in some ways that's good, but it's hard to
get used to.

Gentoo is probably the closest thing to *BSD on many aspects. Most notable
is portage. It functions just like Ports but doesn't rely on BSD Makefiles
but Gentooized BASH scripts. The fundamental principles are the same though.

In some regards you could relate Slackware's binary packages to FreeBSD's
binary package system but not nearly as well developed. Slackware packages
are almost never up to date and are oft times broke in some way. There is
also no dependency checking in Slackware. Portage at least does that for
you. IIRC Arch Documentation was flaky (or at least it was a few years ago
when I felt the need to play with it).

If your looking for a Binary Base and build your own apps on top of that,
you can check out Slackware. If you want a complete Meta-distribution where
you build everything from source then Gentoo would be your best bet. It's
very well documented and supported. It's also reasonably easy to
use/maintain. Just takes some getting used to.

Did you know...

If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward
  ...it installs Windows 2000

   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org

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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Alejandro Imass]

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Ivan Voras  wrote:
> On 11/10/10 13:24, O. Hartmann wrote:
>> Hello out there,
>>
[...]
>
> I think that the general opinion is that Gentoo has the closest thing to
> that aspect of FreeBSD. Other than that, IIRC Slackware is also
> build-friendly.
>

Slackware is actually the most similar to FBSD IMHO
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[C. Bergström]

O. Hartmann wrote:

Hello out there,

well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux 
based systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack 
in severe support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to 
setup a kind of Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools 
I need for my work. I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is 
similar handled like FreeBSD, where I'm able to rebuild the whole 
system from sources, not even the the Linux kernel, also the GNU tools 
and the packages. Maybe there are some people out here having already 
taken this step.

Any suggestion is appreciated,

Hi Oliver,

PathScale will be offering a GPGPU solution for FreeBSD this year.  
Please contact me off list if you'd like to dump your plans to use Linux.


To answer your original question which seems out of context for here... 
You could try Gentoo or ARCH linux.


./C
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[C. Bergström]

Mark Blackman wrote:

"C. Bergström" wrote:

This project is by far too much for a gsoc student not to mention who
would mentor it...  People throw around the term "GPGPU/CUDA" too much
and don't realize that it breaks down into...


fair point, I assumed it was a simple driver question.

We (PathScale and some volunteers) are working on this problem and doing 
our best.. (without funding or gsoc).. More help would be great, but 
there's a learning curve few are brave enough to endure.  We have 
published a large amount of documentation [1] and made it as easy as 
possible, but still need help..



./C

#pathscale - irc.freenode.net (All things compiler and GPGPU welcomed)

[1] http://github.com/pathscale/pscnv/wiki
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Mark Blackman]

"C. Bergström" wrote:

This project is by far too much for a gsoc student not to mention who
would mentor it...  People throw around the term "GPGPU/CUDA" too much
and don't realize that it breaks down into...


fair point, I assumed it was a simple driver question.

- Mark
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[C. Bergström]

Mark Blackman wrote:

O. Hartmann wrote:

well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in
severe support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards


Hmm, interesting requirement. Sounds like a nice Google SoC project or
even something funded.
This project is by far too much for a gsoc student not to mention who 
would mentor it...  People throw around the term "GPGPU/CUDA" too much 
and don't realize that it breaks down into...


1) Kernel drivers (not ported to FreeBSD - see PSCNV.. There has other 
related things like drm, firmware. etc)

2) Runtime (do you need CUDA API, OpenCL.. etc)
3) Assembler
4) Code generation (ptx, direct isa.. which can be nv50, nvc0. etc)
5) Programming model (front-end which is typically CUDA/OpenCL or lesser 
known HMPP)

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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Ivan Voras]

On 11/10/10 13:24, O. Hartmann wrote:
> Hello out there,
> 
> well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
> systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in
> severe support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a
> kind of Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need
> for my work. I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar
> handled like FreeBSD, where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from
> sources, not even the the Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the
> packages. Maybe there are some people out here having already taken this
> step.
> Any suggestion is appreciated,

I think that the general opinion is that Gentoo has the closest thing to
that aspect of FreeBSD. Other than that, IIRC Slackware is also
build-friendly.

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FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[O. Hartmann]

Hello out there,

well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based 
systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in 
severe support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards I need to setup a 
kind of Linux facility to ensure having the software and tools I need 
for my work. I'm looking for a Linux distribution that is similar 
handled like FreeBSD, where I'm able to rebuild the whole system from 
sources, not even the the Linux kernel, also the GNU tools and the 
packages. Maybe there are some people out here having already taken this 
step.

Any suggestion is appreciated,

thanks in advance,

Oliver
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Re: FreeBSD-similar build-from-source Linux?

[Mark Blackman]

O. Hartmann wrote:

well, my question may sound heretic, but since we use mostly Linux based
systems in our scientific environment and FreeBSD seems to lack in
severe support in GPGPU/CUDA capable graphics boards


Hmm, interesting requirement. Sounds like a nice Google SoC project or
even something funded.

- Mark
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