Re: formatting tools for Docbook
On 6/15/06, Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: docs, because then no one else would be able to use my documents. Am I wrong in considering the FDP generated documentation as being in that category, not terribly uselful outside the FreeBSD project. I believe you are wrong, or I misunderstand the question. I haven't used XML DocBook, but I've used DocBook with DSSSL. I assume what you are really asking is not whether the FreeBSD extensions to the DocBook markup language are a problem (they aren't), but whether the stylesheets used by FreeBSD are compatible with those on other systems. They are (or they claim to be, as I said I haven't actually used the XML/XSL tools yet). To clarify: the real issue for me, and probably what you are really referring to, is that the output format is not defined by the DocBook markup, but by the stylesheets (or equivalent) in the tool set used to produce the output. That's both the advantage and disadvantage of Docbook (and SGML in general). If you want strict control of the output format, then you run into the problem of a standard stylesheet format so you can also distribute your stylesheets along with your marked up documents. DSSSL stylesheets are an incredible pain to modify, and I sympathize with your desire to avoid them. XSL stylesheets are becoming a widely accepted standard, so that's the way to go, and since they are pretty much a standard, the details of what tools you use to do your document rendering shouldn't matter. If you need to modify the standard XSL stylesheets to meet your needs, just distribute the modified stylesheets along with your marked up documents and that should allow the person at the other end to duplicate your output. The FreeBSD XML DocBook tool set claims to use XSL stylesheets, so as I said, the answer to your question should be no, the tools are not FreeBSD specific. Is that explanation helping at all, or am I way off track? And have I said anything that is just flat wrong? You may also want to look at http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets if you haven't already. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: formatting tools for Docbook
Chuck Robey wrote: [ ... ] You know, I don't want to argue about thread hijacking, I only want my question answered, so i will try again. Has anyone out there used a tool from the ports set, to be able to do general purpose creation and formatting of XML Docbook documents? Yes. It's usually easier to start with the Docbook templates provided by FreeBSD for, say, an article, but it's entirely possible to go your own way, and write new documents in pure XML rather than SGML, for example. Or work with 4.x XML Docbook documents published on the Linux side rather than SGML from the BSD side. Specifically, this is not intended to reference the FDP tools. It might be possible that the FDP tools supply a 100% 4.5 Docbook XML compatiblity, and if those tools occur in the FreeBSD ports (I think they do) theIN could care about it here, but I don't want o referenc ethe FDP tools at all, otherwise. I don't have any specific intention to use the FDP toolset. Well, I've got news for you: the FDP toolset is the toolset one would use for working on both XML and SGML Docbook documents. If you don't want to follow the fine directions in the FDP guidelines, and install jade by hand or use something besides tidy to do HTML cleanup, or you don't want to install a PDF output tool because you aren't generating PDFs as an output format, OK, fine, that's your concern. Outside of 100% tested compatiblity that you yourself have used in creating and reading non-FreeBSD documents, I really would appreciate not hearing about the FDP tools. OK. Well, the FDP worked with: http://www.pkix.net/~chuck/doc/sco-vs-ibm.xml ...which is a Docbook 4.1.2 XML document, for example. -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: formatting tools for Docbook
Bob Johnson wrote: On 6/15/06, Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: docs, because then no one else would be able to use my documents. Am I wrong in considering the FDP generated documentation as being in that category, not terribly uselful outside the FreeBSD project. I believe you are wrong, or I misunderstand the question. I haven't used XML DocBook, but I've used DocBook with DSSSL. I assume what you are really asking is not whether the FreeBSD extensions to the DocBook markup language are a problem (they aren't), but whether the stylesheets used by FreeBSD are compatible with those on other systems. They are (or they claim to be, as I said I haven't actually used the XML/XSL tools yet). Look, how come you won't follow politely formed requests? I've asked now repeatedly, if you haven't yourself used the XML Docbook tools (not just Docbook, not just your own private mission statement here) then please to let this go, not to respond. I wrote that same request to my very first email. How come you can't react politely to a polite request? In private mail, you have tried to tell me that Docbook-xml didn't exist, and that FDP referred to the FreeBSD Development Project, not the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Aren't you being just a little bit juvenile here? Your own mail shows you know that Docbook-xml exists, and all you need to do is to look at the FreeBSD ports/textproc/docbook-xml-* ports to see what I mean (if you really don't know this). Especially if you are innocently ignorant of XML, then you are the sort of person I did not wwant to have respnd at all. Please, please, let this go, it's not your thread, and I dont' want to use your tools! If you respond again, I won't answer you anymore. I will just let this thread go entirely. I'm sure the rest of this list is quite fed up with this by now. To clarify: the real issue for me, and probably what you are really referring to, is that the output format is not defined by the DocBook markup, but by the stylesheets (or equivalent) in the tool set used to produce the output. That's both the advantage and disadvantage of Docbook (and SGML in general). If you want strict control of the output format, then you run into the problem of a standard stylesheet format so you can also distribute your stylesheets along with your marked up documents. DSSSL stylesheets are an incredible pain to modify, and I sympathize with your desire to avoid them. XSL stylesheets are becoming a widely accepted standard, so that's the way to go, and since they are pretty much a standard, the details of what tools you use to do your document rendering shouldn't matter. If you need to modify the standard XSL stylesheets to meet your needs, just distribute the modified stylesheets along with your marked up documents and that should allow the person at the other end to duplicate your output. The FreeBSD XML DocBook tool set claims to use XSL stylesheets, so as I said, the answer to your question should be no, the tools are not FreeBSD specific. Is that explanation helping at all, or am I way off track? And have I said anything that is just flat wrong? You may also want to look at http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets if you haven't already. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: formatting tools for Docbook
On Fri, Jun 16, 2006, Chuck Robey wrote: Bob Johnson wrote: On 6/15/06, Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: docs, because then no one else would be able to use my documents. Am I wrong in considering the FDP generated documentation as being in that category, not terribly uselful outside the FreeBSD project. I believe you are wrong, or I misunderstand the question. I haven't used XML DocBook, but I've used DocBook with DSSSL. I assume what you are really asking is not whether the FreeBSD extensions to the DocBook markup language are a problem (they aren't), but whether the stylesheets used by FreeBSD are compatible with those on other systems. They are (or they claim to be, as I said I haven't actually used the XML/XSL tools yet). Look, how come you won't follow politely formed requests? I've asked now repeatedly, if you haven't yourself used the XML Docbook tools (not just Docbook, not just your own private mission statement here) then please to let this go, not to respond. I wrote that same request to my very first email. How come you can't react politely to a polite request? I use docbook xml for many things here on a FreeBSD 4.8 system (yeah I know it's out of date, but its uptime is 723 days :-). I'm using the OpenPKG portable packaging system's versions of docbook, openjade, tetex along with docbook-toys from SuSE Linux. docbook-toys is a set of scripts, db2dvi, db2html, db2pdf, etc. which provide simple interfaces to openjade and jadetex. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 The difference between science and the fuzzy subjects is that science requires reasoning while those other subjects merely require scholarship. -- Robert Heinlein ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: formatting tools for Docbook]
Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: This is a delayed reposting of something that I might have sent to an initially poorly chosen list; if it still gets no reponse in another day, I might try again, if I can figure out a better FreeBSD list to choose. My predilection for FreeBSD is strong, I would really dislike to be forced to jump to Linux (or, god forbid, to Windows) for this infomation, about using the various FreeBSD ports tools to get to the ability to format docbook materials. Well, I wasn't trying to write FreeBSD documentation, I was trying to generate my own personal documentation, using a schema that would hopefully be far more generally available. Back when I was using groff and the mm macros (yesterday!) I never would have used some locally tweaked version of the mm macros, unless I included those changes in my docs, because then no one else would be able to use my documents. Am I wrong in considering the FDP generated documentation as being in that category, not terribly uselful outside the FreeBSD project. That's the reason I asked about docbook in general. Obviously, doing FDP stuff is made truly simple. There isn 't some way to adapt the FDP installation to support he generation of more general docbook xml (such as the latest 4.x series stuff, I think 4.5x). ? Best list: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-doc Good starting point: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ Detailed tutorial: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/index.html Tools: check out everything that is installed by these metaports: textproc/docproj-jadetex textproc/docproj-nojadetex ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: formatting tools for Docbook]
Chuck Robey wrote: Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: This is a delayed reposting of something that I might have sent to an initially poorly chosen list; if it still gets no reponse in another day, I might try again, if I can figure out a better FreeBSD list to choose. My predilection for FreeBSD is strong, I would really dislike to be forced to jump to Linux (or, god forbid, to Windows) for this infomation, about using the various FreeBSD ports tools to get to the ability to format docbook materials. Well, I wasn't trying to write FreeBSD documentation, I was trying to generate my own personal documentation, using a schema that would hopefully be far more generally available. Back when I was using groff and the mm macros (yesterday!) I never would have used some locally tweaked version of the mm macros, unless I included those changes in my docs, because then no one else would be able to use my documents. Am I wrong in considering the FDP generated documentation as being in that category, not terribly uselful outside the FreeBSD project. That's the reason I asked about docbook in general. Obviously, doing FDP stuff is made truly simple. There isn 't some way to adapt the FDP installation to support he generation of more general docbook xml (such as the latest 4.x series stuff, I think 4.5x). ? Best list: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-doc Good starting point: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ Detailed tutorial: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/index.html Tools: check out everything that is installed by these metaports: textproc/docproj-jadetex textproc/docproj-nojadetex Sorry, I could have been more expansive and specific, but there's a new and extremely cranky (non-FreeBSD) server here and it's all I can do between its firestorms to dash off brief missives on other topics. I wanted to point you at the general state of the FreeBSD community work with DocBook, and that project's list since they'll likely have the expertise you seek in general terms. I know they are not doing everything you asked about specifically but it's a starting point to explore capabilities; the metaports certainly install plenty of general tools and capabilities in addition to the FreeBSD specific stuff. If the metaports are not interesting to you, I think you can just install the DocBook port, Java, and many typical DocBook tools one at a time (xalan, saxon, jade, fop, etc., etc.). There should be everything you need in the ports collection one way or another. If your question is which of the dozens of XML/XSL processing tools is best for DocBook [4|5], I don't know, but suspect the answer's in the metaports and/or the Doc Project list arena (check their archives and/or ask away over there). Hope that helps more. -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: formatting tools for Docbook
Bob Johnson wrote: On 6/15/06, Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: docs, because then no one else would be able to use my documents. Am I wrong in considering the FDP generated documentation as being in that category, not terribly uselful outside the FreeBSD project. I believe you are wrong, or I misunderstand the question. I haven't used XML DocBook, but I've used DocBook with DSSSL. I assume what you are really asking is not whether the FreeBSD extensions to the DocBook markup language are a problem (they aren't), but whether the stylesheets used by FreeBSD are compatible with those on other systems. They are (or they claim to be, as I said I haven't actually used the XML/XSL tools yet). To clarify: the real issue for me, and probably what you are really referring to, is that the output format is not defined by the DocBook markup, but by the stylesheets (or equivalent) in the tool set used to produce the output. That's both the advantage and disadvantage of Docbook (and SGML in general). If you want strict control of the output format, then you run into the problem of a standard stylesheet format so you can also distribute your stylesheets along with your marked up documents. DSSSL stylesheets are an incredible pain to modify, and I sympathize with your desire to avoid them. XSL stylesheets are becoming a widely accepted standard, so that's the way to go, and since they are pretty much a standard, the details of what tools you use to do your document rendering shouldn't matter. If you need to modify the standard XSL stylesheets to meet your needs, just distribute the modified stylesheets along with your marked up documents and that should allow the person at the other end to duplicate your output. The FreeBSD XML DocBook tool set claims to use XSL stylesheets, so as I said, the answer to your question should be no, the tools are not FreeBSD specific. Is that explanation helping at all, or am I way off track? And have I said anything that is just flat wrong? You may also want to look at http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/DocBookXslStylesheets if you haven't already. This sort of response, answering questions I never asked, is exactly why, in my original post, I pleaded with folks not to respond if they had not, themselves, used the ports to create Docbook (NOT FDP!) documents. I wasn't asking questions relating in any remote fashion to the FDP. It's a fine project, I make no criticism of them at all, but I do make a criticism of folks who try to hijack a thread so as to bang their own drum. I want to make Docbook documents, not FDP docs, and the extensions that FDP supplies, unless it leaves me 100% (not 98%) compatible with the latest Docbook schema (not tracking the FDP schema). I want to write docs for inter-communications with folks outside of FreeBSD, folks who aren't even aware of Unix at all. Please don't hijack my thread. If I try to use FDP-created docs, then I will not be able to send them out to folks who haven't any idea what FDP is, and I don't want that. That wasn't my question. Geeze, I feel badly enough about having to jump on someone ... the first fella, I replied to him privately, but you, in greatly exopanding the range of your hijacking (once the fist fella had snipped off my request not to do just what you did, you were I guess free to do that), I haven't any way to stopping you from destroying my thread, outside of blantly asking you to Stop It (PLEASE!) BTW, I have had replies from others not on this list, and just those monitoring it from outside services, asking me to please forward any relies I get to them, so it's not just for me, that this info is wanted. - Bob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: formatting tools for Docbook]
Greg Barniskis wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: Greg Barniskis wrote: You know, I don't want to argue about thread hijacking, I only want my question answered, so i will try again. Has anyone out there used a tool from the ports set, to be able to do general purpose creation and formatting of XML Docbook documents? Please, if you haven't yourself done this (created general purpose Docbook XML documents by the use of FreeBSD ports-supplied tools) then please ignore this. Specifically, this is not intended to reference the FDP tools. It might be possible that the FDP tools supply a 100% 4.5 Docbook XML compatiblity, and if those tools occur in the FreeBSD ports (I think they do) theIN could care about it here, but I don't want o referenc ethe FDP tools at all, otherwise. I don't have any specific intention to use the FDP toolset. Outside of 100% tested compatiblity that you yourself have used in creating and reading non-FreeBSD documents, I really would appreciate not hearing about the FDP tools. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: formatting tools for Docbook]
This is a delayed reposting of something that I might have sent to an initially poorly chosen list; if it still gets no reponse in another day, I might try again, if I can figure out a better FreeBSD list to choose. My predilection for FreeBSD is strong, I would really dislike to be forced to jump to Linux (or, god forbid, to Windows) for this infomation, about using the various FreeBSD ports tools to get to the ability to format docbook materials. Original Message Subject:formatting tools for Docbook Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:31:58 -0400 From: Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am aware that there is more than a single set of tools that mgiht possibly be used to format Xml-docbook into html, pdf, and ascii, so I want to ask the advice of those FreeBSD'ers who have actually begun using docbook to format their own personal documents. You see, I have a very lnog-term history of usage of Groff-'s MM macros for my document formatting tasks, but I want to move to a more modern set of tools. That is specifically (today) docbook-4.[latest], and tomorrow is docbook-5.[latest]. I really would want, if possible, to avoid using any dsssl-based toolset. If there is a toolset that uses only libxml* based tools, that would really be the best, but I would be willing to consider adding in Java-based tools. One more item, if I can take you that far (or maybe, I;m admitting that if you answer this, I will be following it up with a small set of questions regarding the installation of docbook catalogs, and the installation paths I will be using (so if I must do any document patching, which I don't know enough about yet to predict, I can do that). Once I get it working under Java, you see, I am convinced I coudl (using a smallish postscript helper file) craft a toolset that no longer needs Java at all, but I need a working toolset before I can make that jump. Help me, please! Again, if you aren;'t using docbook yourself, pass this up, please, I only want to hear from those using the tools themselves, on the FreeBSD lists. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: formatting tools for Docbook]
Chuck Robey wrote: This is a delayed reposting of something that I might have sent to an initially poorly chosen list; if it still gets no reponse in another day, I might try again, if I can figure out a better FreeBSD list to choose. My predilection for FreeBSD is strong, I would really dislike to be forced to jump to Linux (or, god forbid, to Windows) for this infomation, about using the various FreeBSD ports tools to get to the ability to format docbook materials. Best list: http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-doc Good starting point: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ Detailed tutorial: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/fdp-primer/index.html Tools: check out everything that is installed by these metaports: textproc/docproj-jadetex textproc/docproj-nojadetex -- Greg Barniskis, Computer Systems Integrator South Central Library System (SCLS) Library Interchange Network (LINK) gregb at scls.lib.wi.us, (608) 266-6348 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
