Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 06:15:09PM +, RW wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:52:31 +0100 (CET) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: for X window system just use some small windows manager that (as name suggest) manages windows on screen and JUST START program you use. IMO these basic window managers are ok if you *only* use them via a keyboard, but if you ever use a mouse they're very poor ergonomically. I'm not sure how you mean that. I use AHWM on my FreeBSD laptop. It doesn't have desktop icons or menus or a taskbar or dock or whatever. It's lightweight, very responsive, and stays the heck out of my way. I use a mouse. I use it for copy/paste (middle click is my friend), I use it with my GUI applications, and I use it for controlling window size and position a lot of the time. I don't see how anything about using a lightweight window manager that doesn't clutter up my workspace with a bunch of unnecessary cruft makes it more difficult to use the mouse when it's appropriate and helpful to do so. -- Chad Perrin [ content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Larry Wall: Just don't create a file called -rf. pgpiRqSOLh7Z7.pgp Description: PGP signature
[Fwd: Re: KDE: What a monster!]
I've been watching this thread for a while now and have seen some things used I haven't even heard of before. What is AHWM? I personally use a myriad of Window Managers and Desktops on my machines. this is m set up: Main Desktop #1: AMD Athlon XP 2600+ / 512 MBs RAM / Crappy onboard video and sound cards / 120 GB HD / Dual Boots Open SUSE 11 and Windows XP home edition. I keep Windows around mostly for just in case, like for example school work requiring crap Office. Open SUSE is used mainly. I use it mainly as my active music making desktop to make my music with LMMS, and also sometimes for web browsing / Email. -- Main Desktop #2: Intel Celeron 2.40 GHz / 512 MBs RAM / Crappy on board sound and video / 80 GB HD with Windows XP for just in case / 160 GB HD for FreeBSD 7.1-RELEASE which is what I normally have booted. Such as now. Mainly used as a machine to learn UNIX, browse the web, and I've allowed it to become the main email center. All my accounts are almost finished being sent over to it so I can use FreeBSD as my main OS for email as well. Just haven't decided on a 3rd email client other than Mutt :) Laptop : Intel Pentium 4 M Processor @ 3.06 GHz / 512 RAM / 32 MB Nvidia card / Onboard sound / 30 GB HD / Partition #1 = Windows XP Home so I can play Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, UT...You get the idea... Partition #2 = Mandriva Linux 2008. Main uses include web browsing, music making with LMMS, and other things. Old main Desktop / Now my FTP server / Was the first computer I ever bought: Pentium 3 Processor @ 733 MHz / 384 MBs RAM / Sound Blaster Live! Sound Card / Nvidia Riva Video card @16 MBs Video Memory / First HD = 43 GBs (Yes, I said 43 I know it's weird, but on Windows 98 when I used to have that installed it said 42.9) ... Anyway, the first drive is my /root partition with Slackware Linux 12.0 running a 2.6 Kernel. Second HD - 160 GBs - Formatted and mounted as /storage for extra storage as it is my FTP server. I basically use it as a way of backing up everyone on all my machines and then do another back up to CD-Rs and a USB HD that is 80 GBs, and a ZIP drive. works great. Video card in the machine barely works, so I don't have X on there as it would be useless. You can barely display graphics and it looks liek crap, so I just don't start up X. Beside, it's a server now, so it doesn't need a GUI. -- Test Machine : Celeron Processor @ 433 MHz / 192 MBs RAM / 80 GB HD / ATI video card with 8 MB video memory / Forgot sound card 3 GB Partition = Windows 98 SE for Magic The Gathering Game tat requires Windows 95 or 98 and won't run no NT / 2000 / XP line (The second version of this game was released because they realised it didn't work on the NT line). Partition #2 - Takes up rest of disk space...About 77 GBs. Has FreeBSD 7.1-RELEASE on it and is almost an exact copy of the installation on this machine. I use that last machine for a lot: I've set up an FTP server so I could test how well FreeBSD does as an FTP server. I also have a lot of toys to test on it with BSD as well. I listed the hardware and function because I think it's important to show what I'm running and what I use it for before saying what GUI stuff I use. On my laptop I use a mix of Enlightenment, Window Maker, and KDE and Gnome. Both of my main desktops run either KDE, Gnome, FVWM2, Enlightenment, or Window Maker. My test machine runs window Maker almost all the time, but sometimes I use FVWM2 or even Gnome or Enlightenment. XFCE has seen use as well. KDE does seem to lag more than the others, and I don't expect it to be snappy as I don't with Gnome either. For speed it's hard to beat FVWM2 or TWM, but for USEABLE speed, I like Window Maker. Enlightenment isn't exactly slow either. With Slackware 10.2 and E17 installed on that super slow 433 MHx box I was once able to turn on the special effects E17 has like snow and fire and ice, and it actually didn't lag much at all. I was shocked. Window Maker has been what I've been using a lot lately though with Gnome on the side when I want to use it. ---BeginMessage--- On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 06:15:09PM +, RW wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:52:31 +0100 (CET) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: for X window system just use some small windows manager that (as name suggest) manages windows on screen and JUST START program you use. IMO these basic window managers are ok if you *only* use them via a keyboard, but if you ever use a mouse they're very poor ergonomically. I'm not sure how you mean that. I use AHWM on my FreeBSD laptop. It doesn't have desktop icons or menus or a taskbar or dock or
Re: [Fwd: Re: KDE: What a monster!]
Den Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:38:18 -0500 skrev Akenner slackwarew...@comcast.net: I've been watching this thread for a while now and have seen some things used I haven't even heard of before. What is AHWM? http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~ahiorean/ahwm/ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: [Fwd: Re: KDE: What a monster!]
Anders Troback wrote: Den Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:38:18 -0500 skrev Akenner slackwarew...@comcast.net: I've been watching this thread for a while now and have seen some things used I haven't even heard of before. What is AHWM? http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~ahiorean/ahwm/ Thank you! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
I didn't know links had agraphics mode... time to checkt this out! start with -g option, of course select X11 support on port config well i have laserjet 4 and use ghostscript+lpr. can't help you. I still have a Laserjet 4 (my first printer), I got it as a present, never treated it kindly (printed VERY much), and it's still working. It's more than 15 years old now, mind this, or that's why i bought it for ca 50$ USED, already had 86000 pages printed, and i printed about 35000. All you have to do is to lubricate with oil some parts every half a year or so, when it starts to have problem with paper jamming. i once printed 2500 pages at once - all i had to do was to put paper. You can even swap toner cardridge on the fly. There are polish-produced replacement cardridges that costs 35$ for 1 pages. With this printer the highest cost is a paper ;) better, try this with a consumer class ink-pee printer. :-) it's crap don't use it. The LJ4000d (duplex) does automatically rotate the paper for every \newpage if setup this way (setup in the printer itself), so gs + lpr should work there, too. It can understand PCL and PS. Can you tell me how exactly you combine gs and lpr? Maybe I can in /etc/printcap lp|lokalna::sh:if=/etc/ifhp:lp=/dev/lpt0:df=/etc/hpdf:sd=/var/spool/output/lo:lf=/var/log/lpd-errs: your /etc/ifhp script should be a filter converting input to whatever your printer handles - PCL5 in my case i use ghostscript. mine looks like this (sligtly modified example): #!/bin/sh # # ifhp - Print Ghostscript-simulated PostScript on a DesJet 500 # Installed in /usr/local/libexec/hpif # # Treat LF as CR+LF: # printf \033k2G || exit 2 # # Read first two characters of the file # read first_line first_two_chars=`expr $first_line : '\(..\)'` if [ $first_two_chars = %! ]; then # # It is PostScript; use Ghostscript to scan-convert and print it # /usr/local/bin/gs -dSAFER -dNOPAUSE -q -sPAPERSIZE=a4 -sDEVICE=ljet4 -sOutputFile=- - \ exit 0 else # # Plain text or HP/PCL, so just print it directly; print a form # at the end to eject the last page. # echo $first_line cat printf \f exit 0 fi exit 2 simply use text mode irc clients like epic or BitchX. I liked the last one, but then switched to X-Chat 1 (with Gtk 1) which was very comfortable. you have strange definition of comfort ;) to incorporate new mail (from /var/mail, I fetch separately via fetchmail) disables its whole GUI for several seconds, which is funny as every normal mail clients reads mailbox files directly. alpine reads maildir dirs directly, and i use maildir format (through procmail). I don't have a mail server running on my home desktop, so I get you don't have to use alpine. it access maildir files directly. messages through POP3 using fetchmail. that's good. look at port options. i installed mplayer recently, works fine. Is the Makefile.local mechanism still supported? Allthough I'm a big fan of pkg_add -r, mplayer has been one of the few things I always to compile (due to the options). no idea all i did was to do make configure then make install Whenever I quit some programs (confirmed for: xmms, xzgv), the mpg123 is your friend. best ever mp3 player. I always thought madplay is better than mpg123. But I think it i used mpg123 on 160Mhz 486 and it used ca 50% CPU at full quality. i don't know any player that needs less CPU power. (I prefer my system to be english-only, with this particular piece of software as the only exception.) use LyX. Hm, I prefer to code LaTeX myself, but I found LyX to be a good tool to suggest to students who wanted to write a thesis that doesn't look like a piece of shit. :-) so use latex :) personally i use both. ports/misc/mc-light Will try this, sounds promising. I tried to change the code in MC definitely try this. it contains only those part of mc that are actually useful. different programs to get your job done. i really prefer unix philosophy. Another part of this philosophy is that you can combine these tools, such as by the means of piping of temporary files, so in a chain of processing, if something goes wrong, you can inspect every piece in between. indeed it's really worth spending these few $ on windoze that case. Here in Germany, it's more convenient NOT to pay, but still to use. And Why should I pay you to work on my computer? :-) that's wrong. You should pay or not use it. You should fight software piracy. Not because it's bad, but because it's the best microsoft friend. Without piracy microsoft wouldn't exist today at all. much more. It's called AmigaOS. Oh my poor Amiga collection (A500, A600, A1200) cries for reviving! :-) You have fully-working windowing system, OS, disk system, filesystem, microkernel etc. etc. with 512KB ROM and 100kB RAM running damn fast on few mips. The Amiga was the first usable PC bringing good graphics
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:17:06 +0100 (CET), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: that's why i bought it for ca 50$ USED, already had 86000 pages printed, and i printed about 35000. On my printer, the page counter has stuck / turned over and does show that approx. 1500 pages have been printed. Hey, I could sell it with the description of very few pages printed, just like new. :-) All you have to do is to lubricate with oil some parts every half a year or so, when it starts to have problem with paper jamming. And buy some replacement for 60 Euro. Yes, I invested that much to get this old friend running again. You can even swap toner cardridge on the fly. There are polish-produced replacement cardridges that costs 35$ for 1 pages. That's not much and a good deal. Original HP toner is approx. 100 Euro, formerly it was 120 DM. better, try this with a consumer class ink-pee printer. :-) it's crap don't use it. I know... my dad thought he was clever and bought the printer I told him NOT to buy. Some months later, he asked me if I could repair a printer... :-) i used mpg123 on 160Mhz 486 and it used ca 50% CPU at full quality. i don't know any player that needs less CPU power. Apropos 160MHz... I'd like to tell a story that is completely true, and it makes me wonder whenever I hear users of uber-powerful hardware, tons of Megs, huge hard disks and two-fan GPUs start complaining that they have skipping audio in their KDE / Gnome programs... I don't get this. With all the power of today's computer, this cannot be. When a P1 150MHz, 64 MB RAM, 3dFX GPU, 6,4 GB HDD was my first FreeBSD system (4.x), I did ALL AT THE SAME TIME: 1. download some ISO via FTP 2. burn another ISO onto CD (Mitsumi 4x recorder) 3. compile something 4. browse the web with still responsive Opera and finally 5. listen to NON-SKIPPING MP3s. It's not a lie, I really DID THIS. And I have this machine here, it will be turned into an experimental server soon. ports/misc/mc-light Will try this, sounds promising. I tried to change the code in MC definitely try this. it contains only those part of mc that are actually useful. I hope the mcedit with syntax highlighting belongs to that. I spent some time getting the syntax color definitions acceptable as well as creating new ones. In fact, I like the MC editor. it's really worth spending these few $ on windoze that case. Here in Germany, it's more convenient NOT to pay, but still to use. And Why should I pay you to work on my computer? :-) that's wrong. You should pay or not use it. Many Windows users that I know do use a pirated copy of the good XP or something else. No idea how they get it running without product key, maybe cracked versions. I never had any situation when to think: Well, I need 'Windows' now., and I don't think I have a system that is supported. So I'll keep clean. :-) You should fight software piracy. Not because it's bad, but because it's the best microsoft friend. I like this one: http://razzor.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/open_source_communism.jpg Software pirates of Windows get always punished because they have to use what they pirated, that's punishment enough, as well as all the fine viruses (virii), trojans, worms, the nice spyware, the malware, the bloat and the time they spend re-installing everything. :-) The downside is that everyone else gets punished, too, or what do you think more than 90% of the e-mail transferred today is spam? Without piracy microsoft wouldn't exist today at all. That's the reason for the big usage share (like market share) of the many different Windows (and people keep complaining about many different Linux distributions). Funny picture on this: http://beconfused.com/images/2007/01/the-joy-of-tech-the-many-editions-of-windows-vista.jpg I'm always happy that Windows is NOT a topic to me. Democracy simulation. That's why less and less people go voting. i don't vote since 4 years. I don't know how the voting system is in Poland, but I think not going to vote is the wrong way. The German voting system leaves you three choices: 1. You vote for a party, this party's votings increase by 1. 2. You don't go to vote. Your voting is associated to the party that already has the most votings (relatively). So not going to vote supports the big parties. 3. You go to vote, but give an invalid voting, either by not making any mark, or marking all parties, or striking them through (that's what I do to express that I don't want any on them). I had the idea that the voting system should be inverted. Instead of giving a voting to a party, parties are marked as denied. The more a party is denied, the less good it is, because at a certain point, the party will be disassembled or forbidden. So we would get rid of all those self-claimed representatives very fast. :-) -- Polytropon From
Re: KDE: What a monster!
to me like they've gone to compete with Vista and have succeeded there, but I find some of the little extras and the core of it seem unfinished somehow. The concept is good (in that it could compete with Vista), but no it's bad. if they wat compete with windows, let they do the whole OS, and one that runs windoze binaries directly. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
card because the latest NVidia binary driver doesn't support it). KDE3.5 does what I want my window manager to do - keeps out of my way and works snappily enough that I don't notice it. The claim that KDE4 is faster than KDE3 is frankly incredible to me. fastest and most stable is not using it at all. it doesn't offer anything. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:56:15 +1000 Da Rock rock_on_the_...@comcen.com.au wrote: I'm also ashamed that they released it in a hurry to compete in this condition to a very sceptical Window$ crowd. People have to use KDE4 in significant numbers for it to mature. The real problem was not that they released it, but that Linux distributions rushed to make it the default version, or in some cases the only version, in their packaging systems. From what I've read, many people in the KDE4 project were not happy about this. If most distributions had either followed the Debian approach of keeping KDE3 as the default, or the FreeBSD approach of leaving it up to the user there wouldn't have been such a problem. One of the worst aspect of OSS is the pervasive attitude that software is either bleeding-edge, or it's obsolete. BTW, I don't think it's really fair to suggest that KDE4 is trying to ape Vista, it looks to me as if the've both just borrowed a lot from OS-X, A lot of the other stuff in KDE4, has been under development for a long-time. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
had either followed the Debian approach of keeping KDE3 as the default, or the FreeBSD approach of leaving it up to the user there wouldn't have been such a problem. One of the worst aspect of OSS is the pervasive attitude that software is either bleeding-edge, or it's obsolete. it's not OSS problem but general problem with all software. this problem started with commercial software some years ago because PEOPLE WANTED THIS. they wanted to have top-end rubbish as most of poeple don't do anything more on their computer than starting few simple programs and a web browser, but wanted to stay ahead. That's why both windoze and KDE (and lots of others) software is such a crap. But it's very simple solution for that for everyone slightly smarter than idiot. Simply DON'T use them. You can do all things with non-trendy unix programs, and with archaic unix way of computing. for X window system just use some small windows manager that (as name suggest) manages windows on screen and JUST START program you use. that's all. the wistles are not needed for work. Actually it makes work harder and much less efficient. You don't need desktop features, you jest need programs that do what you need, and run them. Leave all this colorful whistles to average monkey. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:52:31 +0100 (CET) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: had either followed the Debian approach of keeping KDE3 as the default, or the FreeBSD approach of leaving it up to the user there wouldn't have been such a problem. One of the worst aspect of OSS is the pervasive attitude that software is either bleeding-edge, or it's obsolete. it's not OSS problem but general problem with all software. this problem started with commercial software some years ago because PEOPLE WANTED THIS. I'm not talking about what you would call bloat, I'm talking about the use of software that's little better than a prototype, and people that would rather use unstable software than software that's a few months old. That is very much an OSS problem. for X window system just use some small windows manager that (as name suggest) manages windows on screen and JUST START program you use. IMO these basic window managers are ok if you *only* use them via a keyboard, but if you ever use a mouse they're very poor ergonomically. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 16:04 +, RW wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:56:15 +1000 Da Rock rock_on_the_...@comcen.com.au wrote: I'm also ashamed that they released it in a hurry to compete in this condition to a very sceptical Window$ crowd. People have to use KDE4 in significant numbers for it to mature. The real problem was not that they released it, but that Linux distributions rushed to make it the default version, or in some cases the only version, in their packaging systems. From what I've read, many people in the KDE4 project were not happy about this. If most distributions had either followed the Debian approach of keeping KDE3 as the default, or the FreeBSD approach of leaving it up to the user there wouldn't have been such a problem. One of the worst aspect of OSS is the pervasive attitude that software is either bleeding-edge, or it's obsolete. Thats a fair comment for the linux crowd... :) BTW, I don't think it's really fair to suggest that KDE4 is trying to ape Vista, it looks to me as if the've both just borrowed a lot from OS-X, A lot of the other stuff in KDE4, has been under development for a long-time. Another fair comment, but they were still competing with Vista to the punch and only just made it- consider the media releases around the time of the Vista launch from the kde marketers. They were offering kde on M $! Personally I would have waited for the Vista cock up to reveal itself while I tidied up kde4, THEN swooped in with this really cool alternative to save the day. Once people realised that this could run on a FOSS you'd get these projects mobbed with new users (good for linux anyway). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:53:51 +0100 (CET), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: fortunately it's only tendency to trendy software like KDE. not for all unix software. But sadly for the most software that is used for real productivity, such as media players, programming environments, or even web browsers and mail clients. programming environment? what do you mean? unix itself is THE BEST (tm) programming environment i've ever seen, with most powerfull project manager called make(1), plus LOTS of tools to automatize most of other things. of course - not everybody likes to waste few hours to fully understand things, get cool trendy programming environment and then waste few hours every day. classic unix programs as so flexible that it's often usable for things they were not supposed to. For example - i use make and C preprocessor to make webpages :) instead of all this .css i use headers where i define all colors font sizes etc. i want to change colors on all pages - just one line in one file and run make same or faster every release on THE SAME machine! Exactly, that's why I'm such a happy FreeBSD user, or, to be honest, HAVE BEEN, because I think... well, sometimes I could crash the stupid box against the wall because things that worked well years ago when I setup the system with old software aren't possible with modern software anymore, and that's a thing I cannot so why don't you revert to old software? believe. Evolution is good, but what if it's not only about adding, fixing and optimizing things, but making things impossible, why do you use evolution? i installed it once, started once and after being shocked how crappy it is i deinstalled it. text mode mail clients are the best, like mutt, alpine etc. there is not a problem if you like to view attachments, just define a graphic viewer in alpine etc.. Hardware - = speed++ FreeBSD-- And yes, I think I could notice the speed improvement in the past. Improvements in performance and startup speed are always welcome, allthough they're not a major issue to me. As long as it works flawlessly in general, I'm happy. :-) with FreeBSD you get both. it's not unix problem. it's problem of people that like to have their unix be like windows so it is :) I cannot imagine one (!) reason why I would like to have my UNIX to be like Windows, I'm happy it NOT like Windows. :-) me too, but ask others why ;) what exactly software you rebuild and found slower (except KDE/Gnome bloatware) ? You're inviting me to complain. :-) Before I will start, I may say that I often heared that KDE is an excellent development platform, so I tried it out, from whom ? :) KDE is unless especially because of KDEvelop which I found quite interesting (running it without KDE). KDE and Gnome are simply too much for my machine - end for me. So much stuff I don't need and believe me, there are NO BETTER development platform than standard unix tools First I found that compiling lasts much longer. I know that the yes gcc gets slower. anyway - i don't compile kernel and FreeBSD every day. something like every year is closer. And burncd doesn't work on my CD/DVD recorder anymore, but I have already made the switch to ATAPICAM oriented programs such as cdrecord and cdrdao. i already did the same. i don't even have atapicd driver in kernel Now for X. The startup of X has been improved over the startup of XFree86. It now lasts almost 10s from startx to X. Launching WindowMaker needs no more than 1s of this time. But sadly, X cannot run 1400x1050 anymore. Autodetect X -configure then edit xorg.conf manually. that's all. others on that list: Whenever I switch to textmode and then back to X, the content of the edit buffer (that what you select with the left button and output with the middle button) gets output at the window where the mouse is! So if it is to tell you the truth i don't switch to textmode. i found my own desktop enviroment ;) much better, with switching desktops defined in ALT-F*, and by default having xterm running full screen, and all window frames, decorations and buttons disabled. so xterm looks like true text console. except i can run X clients from it. well you wrote so much i would need to spend a bit time to read it all. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 17:52 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: had either followed the Debian approach of keeping KDE3 as the default, or the FreeBSD approach of leaving it up to the user there wouldn't have been such a problem. One of the worst aspect of OSS is the pervasive attitude that software is either bleeding-edge, or it's obsolete. it's not OSS problem but general problem with all software. this problem started with commercial software some years ago because PEOPLE WANTED THIS. they wanted to have top-end rubbish as most of poeple don't do anything more on their computer than starting few simple programs and a web browser, but wanted to stay ahead. That's why both windoze and KDE (and lots of others) software is such a crap. But it's very simple solution for that for everyone slightly smarter than idiot. Simply DON'T use them. You can do all things with non-trendy unix programs, and with archaic unix way of computing. for X window system just use some small windows manager that (as name suggest) manages windows on screen and JUST START program you use. that's all. the wistles are not needed for work. Actually it makes work harder and much less efficient. You don't need desktop features, you jest need programs that do what you need, and run them. Leave all this colorful whistles to average monkey. Ok, call me monkey average then :) Only this monkey is starting to work on drivers for FreeBSD I like a nice looking system to work on - it helps motivate and inspire me to make something easy and useful for people to feel comfortable working with. That said I'm using xfce4 (based on your comments) adjusted to use transparency and all the cool stuff (even compiz-fusion, which I haven't yet found a use for so its disabled atm). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
long-time. Another fair comment, but they were still competing with Vista to the punch and only just made it- consider the media releases around the time of the Vista launch from the kde marketers. They were offering kde on M $! let they compete how much as they like. be happy at least in this we have close-to-free market rules. both fills large market niche for those who like to have useless system with lots of bells and whistles i simply stay away from this crap, and wish you the same. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
worse, if I compare them to older versions. And if I try to print pages, they look terrible (exceed page borders). Furthermore, it crashes more often than Opera 5 or 7. When do you have opera 7 package somewhere? i would like to downgrade. yes it got very bad. Ah yes, and Firefox doesn't have a key combination to quit the program (such as every other program has, usually something like Ctrl-Q). with my fvwm2 config i simply press CTRL+right mouse click to close window:) Firefox has always been criticised for being slower than every other browser. I'm still sticking to Opera because I like the look and feel, the good keyboard support and the mouse gestures. Yes, I know some of them can be installed to FF as an addition, but... it's not the same! :-) the best browser i've seen is links (graphics mode). excellent font rendering, excellent speed, but unfortunately quite limited HTML processing. Oh and printing, apsfilter, allthough equipped with the same settings as before, doesn't utilize the duplexer of my HP Laserjet 4000 duplex office class printer. It reqires me to pull paper cartridges (because it uses them, even if paper is in tray 1) and then put paper manually (!) into tray 1. well i have laserjet 4 and use ghostscript+lpr. can't help you. I know that most of these improvements come along when the developers decide to move to a new version of the toolkit, for example Gtk to Gtk 2, such as it has been in X-Chat. Try to follow this example (or try it by yourself): Normally, you have X-Chat with a startup dialog of the available IRC servers. In Gtk 1, you could double-click on an entry and simply use text mode irc clients like epic or BitchX. Now for mail. Sylpheed has always been a good mail client, fast is relative. for me it always been slow. USE TEXT MODE MAIL CLIENTS. to incorporate new mail (from /var/mail, I fetch separately via fetchmail) disables its whole GUI for several seconds, which is funny as every normal mail clients reads mailbox files directly. alpine reads maildir dirs directly, and i use maildir format (through procmail). The image viewer xzgv, a fine thing, now has problems displaying the file and directory icons on the left. Let's say the window yes it get broken. no cure for this, i use xv now only. it's bad, xzgv was useful. bar is [|||-]. While I keep holding down cursor up or cuirsor left, this bar should move [] until the end of the file. But now, allthough I can hear the sound move, the bar AND the screen content doesn't update, so I could reach the file's end without knowing it. And OSD doesn't work anymore, but I don't care for this. look at port options. i installed mplayer recently, works fine. i use it regularly Whenever I quit some programs (confirmed for: xmms, xzgv), the mpg123 is your friend. best ever mp3 player. For a long time, StarOffice 5.2 was my tool of choice when I thought I needed something except LaTeX. It didn't matter that it brought its own desktop. For some time afterwards, versions 1.x of OpenOffice could be installed via pkg_add, including the german version. Since 2.x and now with 3.x, it seems that compiling it is required. I don't have an office package installed at the moment, I think I should look if AbiWord can be installed as a german version... (I prefer my system to be english-only, with this particular piece of software as the only exception.) use LyX. Then, the Midnight Commander has been improved. The command line now includes the full path, and for longer paths, column ports/misc/mc-light not mentioning Slowlaris :) Hey hey, Solaris is not that bad, it's my secondary OS (usually well with solaris you have lots of time to make your tea or coffee :) unfortunately you are right. but you can use IMHO firefox with GTK1 This would be an exception, and maybe it would reduce in functionality. no it works fine. from the system's speed gain. That's why I love to use them instead of their oversized brothers. so use them as long as you can - as i do. I would still run my 5.x system, I would change back ANY DAY. i don't mean old FreeBSD version, but old programs. dig out older ports tree and extract needed ports :) There is NO USE for it's GUI, and it's programs are toys, not much usable. KDE's philosophy seems to resemble the same concepts that have spoiled users who are long time Windows users: Put as much functions as possible into one program. Don't mind if it takes which is exactly opposite to unix philosophy, having small program doing little things but doing it well, and a method to automatically use many different programs to get your job done. i really prefer unix philosophy. I think that's UNIX great advantage over all these one program does everything concepts. Sure, there are many little tools that the reason i think that things like KDE in unix are pure nonsense. for those who like windoze way of computing, windoze is the
Re: KDE: What a monster!
Leave all this colorful whistles to average monkey. Ok, call me monkey average then :) Yes i do. Only this monkey is starting to work on drivers for FreeBSD And first wasting half of it's time for all this cool stuff instead of work on drivers! Of course we are happy someone works on improving/writing drivers be it monkey or not ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:15:09 +, RW rwmailli...@googlemail.com wrote: IMO these basic window managers are ok if you *only* use them via a keyboard, but if you ever use a mouse they're very poor ergonomically. Well, I found this a problem, too, but very early recognized that there are window managers that can actually combine keyboard AND mouse control at a very user-friendly level. Such a window manager is WindowMaker. It can even utilize the keys on the left of a Sun Type 6 keyboard for window manager functions (front, back, roll up, hide, full- screen etc.) which the big DEs can't. What I don't like personally about the big DEs is their way of handling windows through the means of the mouse. You're forced to click on tiny buttons, and if you enlarge the control buttons, you end up with uselessly wasting screen space. In WindowMaker, there are many operations that don't force me to first move the mouse to a certain place and THEN do the operation I want. This makes windowing operations, especially in operations context, very fast and easily. So professional window managing isn't about minimalism only. There are other window managers that can provide effects and bells and whistles very efficiently, if you think you need them. But, of course, they're not mainstream. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:36:22 +0100 (CET), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: programming environment? what do you mean? Some heler application for integration and managing source files, such as KDevelop, Eclipse or the like. unix itself is THE BEST (tm) programming environment i've ever seen, with most powerfull project manager called make(1), plus LOTS of tools to automatize most of other things. I've already recognized this fact. I've tried out KDevelop and Eclipse. Well, fine, they may have their users, but I've not gotten one of them. To me, text-file based controls are the best solution. Multiple X Terminals or screen sessions give me the speed and power to do my development work. And finally, I've found Makefile to be even a good tool for web design. Hm? What? Yes, exactly, or to be more precise, not... I do use it to implement developer-site SSI replacement, for uploading content (make upload) and similar tasks. It's possible! :-) I have a system to automatize writing of applications for a job (printed output and PDF for e-mail) based on a config file, and then a Makefile to create the tex file from it, and all the other targets. The advantage to automate things is one of the reasons that drove me away from those X based development tools. There's simply too much interaction for nothing. of course - not everybody likes to waste few hours to fully understand things, get cool trendy programming environment and then waste few hours every day. If you have a concept for programming (and as a part of it, implementing source code), you're well off with every tool that fits your needs. The most clicky-colorful X environment doesn't help if you can't program. Trying to falsify this condition, there are many tools for web developers that output something that's not HTML, claiming that you don't need to know anything about the Web, HTML, the computer or anything in life, but everyone can be a web developer (and see Flash for such reasons, too). I think this click done attitude is found in the programming world, too, but because programming isn't cool enough (not as cool as web development), there are not so much causes from these tools, except what some script kiddies do produce. :-) classic unix programs as so flexible that it's often usable for things they were not supposed to. As I introduced above. Hey, in the past I even abused a floppy tape drive to play music from QIC tapes. :-) For example - i use make and C preprocessor to make webpages :) instead of all this .css i use headers where i define all colors font sizes etc. CSS isn't that bad, my most use of make and cc is #include with HTMLPP=cpp -C -P -traditional, and ftp -u ftp://$(FTPUSER):$(FTPPASSWD)@$(SERVER) * for the make upload command. Even make deinstall (to clean it from the web server) is possible, how would you do this if printf prompt\nmdelete *\nbye\n | ftp ftp://$(FTPUSER):$(FTPPASSWD)@$(SERVER)/ wasn't possible? :-) i want to change colors on all pages - just one line in one file and run make Possible with CSS, too, as long as read from a file (no inline CSS). so why don't you revert to old software? Impossible. For example, XFree86 - xorg dependencies. What I can still use (e. g. xpdf package, LaTeX, xmms) is still in use here. believe. Evolution is good, but what if it's not only about adding, fixing and optimizing things, but making things impossible, why do you use evolution? i installed it once, started once and after being shocked how crappy it is i deinstalled it. Misunderstanding: I didn't mean Evolution, the e-mail and other things managmement program, I meant evolution, the Charles Darwin thing. :-) I tested the e-mail Evolution once, found it MUCH too complicated and kept using fetchmail + sylpheed. text mode mail clients are the best, like mutt, alpine etc. Yes, pine was my first working mail client. What I liked most about text mode clients was that I could access them from everywhere just by the means of a SSH application. Before I will start, I may say that I often heared that KDE is an excellent development platform, so I tried it out, from whom ? :) KDE is unless From KDE users. :-) especially because of KDEvelop which I found quite interesting (running it without KDE). KDE and Gnome are simply too much for my machine - end for me. So much stuff I don't need and believe me, there are NO BETTER development platform than standard unix tools Let me emphasize your use of standard here. Because I did use many differnt platforms (BSD, Linux, Solaris, even IRIX and HP-UX), I found it quite comfortable that with the means of basic (not BASIC) knowledge you could do development on all the platforms in their installed state, no need to install X-based DE tools. This is due to the fact that all the UNIXes and Linusi share essential standards, such as standard scripting shells, standard ways of organizing things
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:36:34 +1000, Da Rock rock_on_the_...@comcen.com.au wrote: That said I'm using xfce4 (based on your comments) adjusted to use transparency and all the cool stuff (even compiz-fusion, which I haven't yet found a use for so its disabled atm). Maybe this is interesting or inpiring to you: Hmmm... - http://xubuntublog.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/design-your-own-desktop-with-xfce-44-part-2/ Bah! - http://xubuntublog.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/design-your-own-desktop-with-xfce-44/ -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 03:18:55AM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:15:09 +, RW rwmailli...@googlemail.com wrote: IMO these basic window managers are ok if you *only* use them via a keyboard, but if you ever use a mouse they're very poor ergonomically. Well, I found this a problem, too, but very early recognized that there are window managers that can actually combine keyboard AND mouse control at a very user-friendly level. Such a window manager is WindowMaker. It can even utilize the keys on the left of a Sun Type 6 keyboard for window manager functions (front, back, roll up, hide, full- screen etc.) which the big DEs can't. What I don't like personally about the big DEs is their way of handling windows through the means of the mouse. You're forced to click on tiny buttons, and if you enlarge the control buttons, you end up with uselessly wasting screen space. In WindowMaker, there are many operations that don't force me to first move the mouse to a certain place and THEN do the operation I want. This makes windowing operations, especially in operations context, very fast and easily. So professional window managing isn't about minimalism only. There are other window managers that can provide effects and bells and whistles very efficiently, if you think you need them. But, of course, they're not mainstream. I have gotten very interested in window managers. Earlier tonight I added links to about 6 non-mainstream window managers, including WindowMaker. But I still don't understand how the menus of each of these WMs are customized via .xinitrc, etc. Where can I find that info. I would like to have a right click menu that would allow me to select a new WM to run with. Is that possible? Thanks. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:58:11 +0100 (CET), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: do you have opera 7 package somewhere? i would like to downgrade. yes it got very bad. I think I have a working Opera 7 installation on my old-fashioned laptop (FreeBSD 5), and if I've got the /usr/ports tree still there, maybe I can make package? It's just the question if the defective hard drive (sounds like a chainsaw, since it came from the factory already) lets me do this... I'll try and notify you about the results. with my fvwm2 config i simply press CTRL+right mouse click to close window:) Hey, good idea! I think Alt+PF4 works (as default) on most window managers (it does in WindowMaker at least). In GeoWorks Ensemble, you could close a window with PF3. the best browser i've seen is links (graphics mode). excellent font rendering, excellent speed, but unfortunately quite limited HTML processing. I didn't know links had agraphics mode... time to checkt this out! well i have laserjet 4 and use ghostscript+lpr. can't help you. I still have a Laserjet 4 (my first printer), I got it as a present, never treated it kindly (printed VERY much), and it's still working. It's more than 15 years old now, mind this, or better, try this with a consumer class ink-pee printer. :-) The LJ4000d (duplex) does automatically rotate the paper for every \newpage if setup this way (setup in the printer itself), so gs + lpr should work there, too. It can understand PCL and PS. Can you tell me how exactly you combine gs and lpr? Maybe I can get rid of apsfiler (or CUPS, which I refuse to install due to the many dependencies). Only requirement is that printing should work from everywhere (lpr file or data piped to lpr). simply use text mode irc clients like epic or BitchX. I liked the last one, but then switched to X-Chat 1 (with Gtk 1) which was very comfortable. Now for mail. Sylpheed has always been a good mail client, fast is relative. for me it always been slow. Since switch to Gtk 2, I recognize this. to incorporate new mail (from /var/mail, I fetch separately via fetchmail) disables its whole GUI for several seconds, which is funny as every normal mail clients reads mailbox files directly. alpine reads maildir dirs directly, and i use maildir format (through procmail). I don't have a mail server running on my home desktop, so I get messages through POP3 using fetchmail. Why not through the mail client? Because in the past, I was using different mail clients at the same time for testing, and this was possible due to the fact that all of them could access the same data structures for the messages. Furthermore, fetchmail can get mail periodically, and I don't need to have Thunderbird or the like running all the time to check mail. A little xbiff informs me if something's new. The image viewer xzgv, a fine thing, now has problems displaying the file and directory icons on the left. Let's say the window yes it get broken. no cure for this, i use xv now only. it's bad, xzgv was useful. I've heared that xnview should be good, but didn't try this out yet. bar is [|||-]. While I keep holding down cursor up or cuirsor left, this bar should move [] until the end of the file. But now, allthough I can hear the sound move, the bar AND the screen content doesn't update, so I could reach the file's end without knowing it. And OSD doesn't work anymore, but I don't care for this. look at port options. i installed mplayer recently, works fine. Is the Makefile.local mechanism still supported? Allthough I'm a big fan of pkg_add -r, mplayer has been one of the few things I always to compile (due to the options). i use it regularly Me too. Whenever I quit some programs (confirmed for: xmms, xzgv), the mpg123 is your friend. best ever mp3 player. I always thought madplay is better than mpg123. But I think it doesn't contain rew / ff control via keyboard. For a long time, StarOffice 5.2 was my tool of choice when I thought I needed something except LaTeX. It didn't matter that it brought its own desktop. For some time afterwards, versions 1.x of OpenOffice could be installed via pkg_add, including the german version. Since 2.x and now with 3.x, it seems that compiling it is required. I don't have an office package installed at the moment, I think I should look if AbiWord can be installed as a german version... (I prefer my system to be english-only, with this particular piece of software as the only exception.) use LyX. Hm, I prefer to code LaTeX myself, but I found LyX to be a good tool to suggest to students who wanted to write a thesis that doesn't look like a piece of shit. :-) The reason for an Office like program is the ability to read ODF files. (What I like about ODF and OpenOffice's previous file formats: You didn't need the creator program to read the files - they could be unzipped and
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, 2009-01-28 at 03:57 +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:36:22 +0100 (CET), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: programming environment? what do you mean? Some heler application for integration and managing source files, such as KDevelop, Eclipse or the like. Whether or not it helps others, I'm using netbeans because its very helpful (code completion, auto help dialogs- can be annoying but manageable) in that it reminds me of what else is in a large system of code, and it handles many different languages even when they're all in the same app (php, javascript, java, ruby, etc). I'm working on several different projects to keep things going so I need the flexibility. I know I could probably use emacs and customise, but I can't quite see all that without a lot of hassle. Plus I need to maintain X systems for my users anyway- so why bother fussing? They need a nice, flashy system to work with so the more I use it the better I can tune it to their needs. I deal a lot with users and X, hence my viewpoint on the subject. I also contend with stuck in a ruts who refuse to move from a buggy, insecure systems like M$ provides. The most ridiculous situations are when supposedly staunch FOSS administrators are trapped into doing bulk administrative tasks on windows only admin system because (1) the users want something only M$ provides, (2) they can't figure a way to run a suitable alternative on FOSS. Ergo, they're stuck doing a task hundreds of times over because it can't be scripted due to lack of cli. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:04:08 + (UTC), Dave Feustel dfeus...@mindspring.com wrote: I have gotten very interested in window managers. Earlier tonight I added links to about 6 non-mainstream window managers, including WindowMaker. But I still don't understand how the menus of each of these WMs are customized via .xinitrc, etc. Where can I find that info. I would like to have a right click menu that would allow me to select a new WM to run with. Is that possible? I'm not sure I did correctly understand you, so I will try to anwser what I think is the question. In ~/.xinitrc, the window manager's menues aren't controlled. For example for WindiwMaker, its structure is ~/GNUstep for having all the settings. To set menu content in WindowMaker, the Preferences utility can be used, for example, to add other window managers (switch to other WM). This would need to be done to every window manager separately because they're not sharing a similar (or the same) configuration data structure. The window manager that will actually be used is the last line, the exec line in ~/.xinitrc, such as exec wmaker or exec xfwm I don't know how a display manager like wdm, kdm or gdm allows switching window managers at login time (after X server is run). I think xdm doesn't have such a functionality. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:35:05 +1000, Da Rock rock_on_the_...@comcen.com.au wrote: Whether or not it helps others, I'm using netbeans because its very helpful (code completion, auto help dialogs- can be annoying but manageable) in that it reminds me of what else is in a large system of code, and it handles many different languages even when they're all in the same app (php, javascript, java, ruby, etc). I'm working on several different projects to keep things going so I need the flexibility. I've been using NetBeans on Solaris for Java development. I found it quite handy within the Solaris enviroment, but I've never tried out PC versions of it. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 03:18:55AM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:15:09 +, RW rwmailli...@googlemail.com wrote: IMO these basic window managers are ok if you *only* use them via a keyboard, but if you ever use a mouse they're very poor ergonomically. Well, I found this a problem, too, but very early recognized that there are window managers that can actually combine keyboard AND mouse control at a very user-friendly level. Such a window manager is WindowMaker. It can even utilize the keys on the left of a Sun Type 6 keyboard for window manager functions (front, back, roll up, hide, full- screen etc.) which the big DEs can't. What I don't like personally about the big DEs is their way of handling windows through the means of the mouse. You're forced to click on tiny buttons, and if you enlarge the control buttons, you end up with uselessly wasting screen space. In WindowMaker, there are many operations that don't force me to first move the mouse to a certain place and THEN do the operation I want. This makes windowing operations, especially in operations context, very fast and easily. So professional window managing isn't about minimalism only. There are other window managers that can provide effects and bells and whistles very efficiently, if you think you need them. But, of course, they're not mainstream. BUT: do things i _use_ from kde and gnome work with other wm's? if memory serves, i had lots of troubles using kttsd with my favorite manager, ctwm. (i used ctwm for -years- before i finally upgraded to a powerful enough computer and switched.) i use simple cli stuff for most things, kde/gnome when i need it. and i'm sticking with kde3 until kde4 is 1) stable and complete, and 2), IFF it has something worth switching over for. that's my two cent's worth:) gary -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 2.23a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
Dear list, I'm starting to make myself unpopular today. :-) On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:53:51 +0100 (CET), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: fortunately it's only tendency to trendy software like KDE. not for all unix software. But sadly for the most software that is used for real productivity, such as media players, programming environments, or even web browsers and mail clients. and definitely NOT for FreeBSD OS inself, that gets same or faster every release on THE SAME machine! Exactly, that's why I'm such a happy FreeBSD user, or, to be honest, HAVE BEEN, because I think... well, sometimes I could crash the stupid box against the wall because things that worked well years ago when I setup the system with old software aren't possible with modern software anymore, and that's a thing I cannot believe. Evolution is good, but what if it's not only about adding, fixing and optimizing things, but making things impossible, due to handling or dropping of functionalities? In this regards, FreeBSD always was / is good: A solid OS base where certain things can be EXPECTED to work. Up to today, I haven't found an operating environment that serves me as good as FreeBSD did in the past. FreeBSD in the equation of speed: Hardware - = speed++ FreeBSD-- And yes, I think I could notice the speed improvement in the past. Improvements in performance and startup speed are always welcome, allthough they're not a major issue to me. As long as it works flawlessly in general, I'm happy. :-) it's not unix problem. it's problem of people that like to have their unix be like windows so it is :) I cannot imagine one (!) reason why I would like to have my UNIX to be like Windows, I'm happy it NOT like Windows. :-) (These words from a man who has never used Windows, so I'm not spoiled with its strange concepts or assumptions about how things should be done.) what exactly software you rebuild and found slower (except KDE/Gnome bloatware) ? You're inviting me to complain. :-) Before I will start, I may say that I often heared that KDE is an excellent development platform, so I tried it out, especially because of KDEvelop which I found quite interesting (running it without KDE). KDE and Gnome are simply too much for my machine - end for me. So much stuff I don't need and don't want (such as automounting devices, this is - in terms of security - not wanted on my system). And all that stuff that comes bundled with it that I even don't know about... And I think Gnome isn't much better due to Gtk 2 and its huge pile of dependencies. People keep saying that XFCE 4 would be good for a lightweight desktop, but it uses Gtk 2, too, so same problem here. Okay, when your weight is 200kg, then 150kg may be lightweight, but not compared to mankind's average. :-) KDE wouldn't let me utilize the keys on my Sun USB Type 6 keyboard anymore. I've always been a fan of lightweight software (and I MEAN lightweight), such as WindowMaker, an excellent window manager, and all the programs that do not have a K or a G in the name. :-) Now, let's start complaining. It will be a looong list, and I have to admit that I've not found the motivation yet to fix the problems that can be fixed, allthough I'm sure not all of them can be fixed. Introduction: I've used FreeBSD 5.4-p something since I set it up some years ago, and up to July 2008 when an inode crashed my life, the universe, and everything, the system ran fine so I had no reason to update anything. Machine is an Intel P4 with 2 GHz and 768 MB SDR-SDRAM (yes, I know, I'm too mean to buy DDR1-SDRAM for this). GPU is an ATI Radeon 9200 / RV250 AGP. Sound is CMI. First I found that compiling lasts much longer. I know that the new C compiler does much more optimization, but compile times have almost doubled - remember, we're talking about the same hardware configuration, no change. Some numbers: FreeBSD 7 - buildkernel KERNCONF1:05:25.90 97.2% 1:11:05.53 94.4% buildworld 3:54:15.31 96.8% installkernel KERNCONF 0:46.89 63.9% ... make update ... buildkernel KERNCONF -D USBDEBUG1:58:29.08 64.7% buildworld buildkernel KERNCONF -D USBDEBUG 6:06:03.90 86.9% 7:19:49.24 78.2% installkernel KERNCONF 1:11.85 43.1% buildworld buildkernel KERNCONF 6:01:33.44 90.1% 6:19:33.55 92.8% 7:39:11.57 82.0% 9:12:00.28 65.1% FreeBSD 5 - buildworld buildkernel KERNCONF 5:46:42.25 96.4% buildworld buildkernel KERNCONF 5:46:30.40 95.9%
Re: KDE: What a monster!
Linus Torvalds on KDE4... [quote] Q: Another open source project that underwent a big change was KDE with version 4.0. They released a lot of fundamental architectural changes with 4.0 and it received some negative reviews. As a KDE user how has this impacted you? A: I used to be a KDE user. I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do. But the whole break everything model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else. I realise the reason for the 4.0 release, but I think they did it badly. They did so many changes it was a half-baked release. It may turn out to be the right decision in the end and I will re-try KDE, but I suspect I'm not the only person they lost. I got the update through Fedora and there was a mismatch from KDE 3 to KDE 4.0. The desktop was not as functional and it was just a bad experience for me. I'll revisit it when I reinstall the next machine which tends to be every six to eight months. The GNOME people are talking about doing major surgery so it could also go the other way. [/quote] Full story: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasictaxonomyName=SoftwarearticleId=9126619taxonomyId=18pageNumber=5 -- Nino ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Monday 26 January 2009 17:02:05 n j wrote: Linus Torvalds on KDE4... [quote] A: I used to be a KDE user. I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do. But the whole break everything model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else. I realise the reason for the 4.0 release, but I think they did it badly. They did so many changes it was a half-baked release. It may turn out to be the right decision in the end and I will re-try KDE, but I suspect I'm not the only person they lost. I've seen it suggested that KDE4 is faster than KDE3. I'm running FreeBSD 7.0 - granted, my machine is not brand-new: it's a P4 1.8GHz with 512MB of RAM and an NVidia GeForce MX4000 (I mention the graphics card because the latest NVidia binary driver doesn't support it). KDE3.5 does what I want my window manager to do - keeps out of my way and works snappily enough that I don't notice it. I recently installed PCBSD7.02, which uses KDE4.1. It's unusable. For example, with only two applications running - the KBreakout game and the Psi Jabber/XMPP client - the game was unplayable because each time Psi received an incoming chat or event, the game froze for a second or two while KDE struggled to open the chat window. The claim that KDE4 is faster than KDE3 is frankly incredible to me. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Tue, 2009-01-27 at 08:31 +0200, Jonathan McKeown wrote: On Monday 26 January 2009 17:02:05 n j wrote: Linus Torvalds on KDE4... [quote] A: I used to be a KDE user. I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do. But the whole break everything model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else. I realise the reason for the 4.0 release, but I think they did it badly. They did so many changes it was a half-baked release. It may turn out to be the right decision in the end and I will re-try KDE, but I suspect I'm not the only person they lost. I've seen it suggested that KDE4 is faster than KDE3. I'm running FreeBSD 7.0 - granted, my machine is not brand-new: it's a P4 1.8GHz with 512MB of RAM and an NVidia GeForce MX4000 (I mention the graphics card because the latest NVidia binary driver doesn't support it). KDE3.5 does what I want my window manager to do - keeps out of my way and works snappily enough that I don't notice it. I recently installed PCBSD7.02, which uses KDE4.1. It's unusable. For example, with only two applications running - the KBreakout game and the Psi Jabber/XMPP client - the game was unplayable because each time Psi received an incoming chat or event, the game froze for a second or two while KDE struggled to open the chat window. The claim that KDE4 is faster than KDE3 is frankly incredible to me. Wouldn't that be dependent on the Xorg server version and setup? It may be that some extra features of the video you're using need to be enabled. That said I'm not very impressed either (speed, features, etc). It looks to me like they've gone to compete with Vista and have succeeded there, but I find some of the little extras and the core of it seem unfinished somehow. The concept is good (in that it could compete with Vista), but to be completely successful in that venture even the aesthetics need to be tidied up. I'm also ashamed that they released it in a hurry to compete in this condition to a very sceptical Window$ crowd. If they had of waited and finished it properly even if it didn't reach the masses before Vista they may have pulled more disgruntled users from the M$ addiction. Now most are under the impression that nothing is any better than the crap they have now so they may as well stick with it... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
Without wanting to start an endless discussion, I may say that I've recognized the tendency to slow down programs in UNIX world such as it is always described in Windows land: As soon as you get a new OS or new programs, everything runs slower than before. In order to keep the overall usage speed, you need to have more hardware power. fortunately it's only tendency to trendy software like KDE. not for all unix software. and definitely NOT for FreeBSD OS inself, that gets same or faster every release on THE SAME machine! it's not unix problem. it's problem of people that like to have their unix be like windows so it is :) for me it's not a problem at all! I'm running a P4 2GHz for more than 4 years now happily (I think), but when I needed to build a new software installation due to a data fallout in July 2008, I found everything running slower. what exactly software you rebuild and found slower (except KDE/Gnome bloatware) ? THIS TO ALL FreeBSD DEVELOPERS: NOT YOUR FAULT! Every release of FreeBSD brought a higher bootup speed to my system, faster system services and better performance. INDEED. contrary to linux that it's mostly faster in artifical tests, slower on everything else. contrary to NetBSD, (no idea about openbsd), not mentioning Slowlaris :) that's why i use it! But what about these advantages? They've got eaten up by all the applications installed, their libraries and especially their GUI toolkits. Nearly every Gtk application has been switched from Gtk 1 to Gtk 2, including more disk consuming libs and depencencies, slower program startup and slower reaction. unfortunately you are right. but you can use IMHO firefox with GTK1 My favourite examples are: * Opera, hardly reacting on input while loading a web page (and no, I don't try to use Flash stuff) it's not libraries fault but opera fault IMHO. i see the same! * Gimp, loads very slowly, needs seconds (!) to show the right click menu, needs several seconds to launch printing dialog what gimp version. mine starts 10 seconds, then works quick. checked with ldd - it uses gtk2 and tons of other libs. are you sure there are no other problems with your system? On the other hand, there are old programs that seem to profit from the system's speed gain. That's why I love to use them instead of their oversized brothers. so use them as long as you can - as i do. Such an oversized brother is KDE 4. Don't get me wrong, please. so why do you use it? it's mostly useless even if it would be fast. There is NO USE for it's GUI, and it's programs are toys, not much usable. use separate programs for spreadsheets, word processors and similar office work. On an up-to-date hardware basis, it's surely a joy to use, fast you are wrong. it's slow on quad core intel with 4GB RAM. i tested it. and responsive. But if your system isn't from today, you don't gonna have fun with it. Around me, other users seem to favour Gnome instead of KDE because they are not willing to update their gnome is slow too. just a little bit less slow ;) my main and only personal computer is IBM Thinkpad T23 laptop with Pentium 3M/1200 and 256MB RAM. without all these bloats it happily runs all i need fast without any swapping. only opera gets slower ;) BTW are there somewhere available older version of opera package? :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/evilwm make install clean Can't beat a window manager with a binary size of 29k and a resident memory footprint under 2MB. No window decorations, leaving lots of room memory footprint is much lower actually. you probably looked at RSS in top. but it shows everything that is resident, but say C library and X11 library is shared! for xterms. Launch everything via script or shell alias. Very keyboard driven. i must look. i currently use fvwm2 with my own config removing all decorations, window frames and with keyboard shortcuts (ALT-F*) to switch desktop. If only I could find a terminal program that was smaller than rxvt I'd be happy. I feel your pain on the bloated software phenomenom. That's the pain of me too. but with my config i can easily do everything on 256MB RAM without mostly using swap ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 19:15:47 -0500, Eduardo Cerejo ejcer...@optonline.net wrote: I just finished installing kde4, and it can barely run on my old p4 machine! Where has kde gone? Is the developing team trying to beat VISTA? Pitiful at best! Without wanting to start an endless discussion, I may say that I've recognized the tendency to slow down programs in UNIX world such as it is always described in Windows land: As soon as you get a new OS or new programs, everything runs slower than before. In order to keep the overall usage speed, you need to have more hardware power. I'm running a P4 2GHz for more than 4 years now happily (I think), but when I needed to build a new software installation due to a data fallout in July 2008, I found everything running slower. THIS TO ALL FreeBSD DEVELOPERS: NOT YOUR FAULT! Every release of FreeBSD brought a higher bootup speed to my system, faster system services and better performance. But what about these advantages? They've got eaten up by all the applications installed, their libraries and especially their GUI toolkits. Nearly every Gtk application has been switched from Gtk 1 to Gtk 2, including more disk consuming libs and depencencies, slower program startup and slower reaction. My favourite examples are: * Opera, hardly reacting on input while loading a web page (and no, I don't try to use Flash stuff) * Gimp, loads very slowly, needs seconds (!) to show the right click menu, needs several seconds to launch printing dialog On the other hand, there are old programs that seem to profit from the system's speed gain. That's why I love to use them instead of their oversized brothers. Such an oversized brother is KDE 4. Don't get me wrong, please. On an up-to-date hardware basis, it's surely a joy to use, fast and responsive. But if your system isn't from today, you don't gonna have fun with it. Around me, other users seem to favour Gnome instead of KDE because they are not willing to update their perfectly running hardware with every release of the desktop environment. (Addition: Gnome has better german internationalisation than KDE.) But I'm not sure if Gnome or even XFCE will follow the tradition to decrease speed, I'm using neither of them. Decrease speed? In my opinion, the following formula is true: hardware resources --- = usage speed software requirements And if you add ++ to numerator and denominator of this quotient, you'll see that the result will stay the same. This is my very individual observation: People are doing the same things with their computers over the years, and they keep doing it *at the same speed* as years ago. I always was happy when I could update my FreeBSD system, because things were faster afterwards. Today, things are slower afterwards. This makes me sad... This has lead me to the conclusion not to use KDE, allthough it has really interesting applications. It's not that I need a desktop GUI system, I'm perfectly happy with a functional and fast window manager (i. e. WindowMaker). Sorry for bothering the list with my thoughts, but maybe I'm not alone with this unmodern point of view. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
prad wrote: :D :D :D actually my wife is using kde4 on suse. it's not too bad there for her needs at least, but i try to stay clear of her computer :D i did like kde3, but now i'm a dwm person! I've been using KDE4 on a machine with OpenSUSE 11 that has 512 MBs RAM, and an AMD Athlon XP 2600+ processor at 2.13GHz and it hasn't been slow or anything. I've also been fine with a Pentium 4 M @3.06GHz and 512 RAM. -Allen ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
KDE: What a monster!
I just finished installing kde4, and it can barely run on my old p4 machine! Where has kde gone? Is the developing team trying to beat VISTA? Pitiful at best! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
I just finished installing kde4, and it can barely run on my old p4 machine! Where has kde gone? Is the developing team trying to beat VISTA? Pitiful at best! Now Microsoft can say AndYou all told that linux is so much better, but now we see the truth anyway what a sense of using it under unix. You run unix to get unix environment isn't it? :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:25:12 +0100 (CET) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: Now Microsoft can say AndYou all told that linux is so much better, but now we see the truth :D :D :D actually my wife is using kde4 on suse. it's not too bad there for her needs at least, but i try to stay clear of her computer :D i did like kde3, but now i'm a dwm person! -- In friendship, prad ... with you on your journey Towards Freedom http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website) Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 07:15:47PM -0500, Eduardo Cerejo wrote: I just finished installing kde4, and it can barely run on my old p4 machine! Where has kde gone? Is the developing team trying to beat VISTA? Pitiful at best! Try: cd /usr/ports/x11-wm/evilwm make install clean Can't beat a window manager with a binary size of 29k and a resident memory footprint under 2MB. No window decorations, leaving lots of room for xterms. Launch everything via script or shell alias. Very keyboard driven. If only I could find a terminal program that was smaller than rxvt I'd be happy. I feel your pain on the bloated software phenomenom. That's the pain of progress, I suppose. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: KDE: What a monster!
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 19:15:47 -0500 Eduardo Cerejo ejcer...@optonline.net wrote: I just finished installing kde4, and it can barely run on my old p4 machine! Where has kde gone? I think kde3 is going to be around for some time to come. Hopefully kde4 will have improved by the time it's phased-out. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
