RE: question on DSL signal
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Banning Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 12:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: question on DSL signal I run a small FreeBSD server with a standard DSL line. I have it ping the ISP every five seconds, and when it doesn't ping it logs the results. 3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260, and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended? I work at an ISP and do this stuff for a living. Westell makes some very good DSL modems. The 2100 and the 35R515, 516, etc. series are great. These are dumb bridges, so your BSD system must speak PPP if thats what your ISP uses. (we don't, we use bridged mode) There's a program (wdiag 0.9) you can compile that will query the 36R51x series of modems for statistics. Here's an example from my own home DSL line plugged into my FreeBSD system: mail# pwd /usr/ports/distfiles/manual-build/wdiag/src mail# ./wstart mail# ./westell Uptime Counter: 24696500 Upstream SNR: 90 Upstream Power: 120 Upstream Attenuation: 315 Upstream Sync Rate: 768 Downstream SNR: 50 Downstream Power: 180 Downstream Attenuation: 535 Downstream Sync Rate: 1536 FEC Errors: 0 CRC Errors: 0 HEC Errors: 0 Signal Lost: 0 Frame Lost: 0 Tx Cell: 7071744 Rx Cells: 8183507 Dropped Cells: n/a Rx Ethernet: 60256998 Tx Ethernet: 55199128 Discarded Ethernet: 0 mail# ./wstop mail# Anyway, as the other poster said, your problem is copper. Your ISP has to just keep calling the phone company and dispatching a tech out there. Weekly if necessary. We had the same problem with one of our customers provisioned through Verizon. It went on for months and the customer was under the impression that the problem was the modem, so every time she had a problem she would call up and ask to have her modem exchanged. I must have put a dozen modems out there, and of course the returned ones tested fine. I knew the problem was wiring not the modem but the modem swap thing made her happy. (no big deal for us we just gave the modems to other customers) The problem with dispatching a tech was that she was never home and her MPOE was in a dog run, and she wasn't really willing to setup access for the phone techs to get to the MPOE. Finally one day a tree fell in the neighborhood and knocked down a phone pole. After Verizon repaired that, problem vanished. The tree was about 3 blocks from her house. For instances when the customer was willing to stick around to let the tech have access, it usually takes about 3 dispatches on the tough ones before they are fixed. The local phone company dispatcher is wise to the deal and when they see multiple repeat calls to the same site they will send out their experienced linemen. The greenhorn linemen can't troubleshoot DSL worth crap. Just keep on dispatching them. The tech guys at the CO can look at the DSLAM statistics and see the same thing that you can see if you query the modem stats, and if your copper is bad it can't be hidden in the stats. As for all the talk about the phone company not caring, that is baloney. The phone company is very interested in DSL and works to fix the problems. It is true that some linemen think DSL is a waste of their time and don't lift a finger to actually get in there and feel around for the line problems. But this isn't the corporate party line on DSL at any phone company, and if you get blown off by a lineman giving you a raft of crap like they can't fix it, call the ISP and the ISP can force escalation and get a manager in there who can get a different phone tech who knows what he's doing. This stuff isn't rocket science, frankly your problem is your ISP, unless of course your using the telephone company as the ISP also, in which case your not ever going to talk to anyone competent. Good luck with that. There's a reason people use 3rd party ISPs. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
At 02:01 PM 2/4/2008, David Banning wrote: I run a small FreeBSD server with a standard DSL line. I have it ping the ISP every five seconds, and when it doesn't ping it logs the results. I notice very inconsistent results. Sometimes it's up for a week without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds, down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1. That can go on for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so. It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down. To end any possibility of the phone company pointing their finger at the wiring in my house, I put the DSL modem right at the phone connection block where the line enters the house and then called them. Problem persists. The phone company say they have replaced lines all over the neighborhood while trying to fix the problem. Eventually the connection becomes stable, the phone company declares that they found the problem, but when he's gone, the trouble starts again. Now knowing how common this is, I installed the same logging system at another company's server, that is located a few miles away. Guess what? Same drop-in drop-out problem. To any average computer user, these lines might appear normal - when a page stops loading for a minute they just live with it, and forget about it. So here's my question: 1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines that can tell me how common this is? It is fairly common as the number of DSL providers is large, but they rely on the copper wires in place that may or may not be well maintained that are usually owned by another firm. So getting the copper actually fixed can take a lot of persistence and patience. Often these lines are from old voice circuits that were not nearly as demanding as DSL. Worse, at least around me in the midwest, often indoor boxes and such are used outside which causes a lot of issues with digital lines. 2. Is there any way to avoid it? Get all new wiring in place. 3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260, and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended? I'm not sure if the modems really matter as it is likely a noisy line either from other drops still in place, bad junctions, or just old wires getting crosstalk. Keep a log of problem times, noting the weather, time of day, and anything else that could be a factor. -Derek -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
It is fairly common as the number of DSL providers is large, but they rely on the copper wires in place that may or may not be well maintained that are usually owned by another firm. So getting the copper actually fixed can take in Polish free market polish telecom leases line to anyone - at prices higher than their DSL service... ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
On 4 Feb 2008, at 21:49, Tim Daneliuk wrote: David Banning wrote: snip 2. Is there any way to avoid it? Yes - switch to different fabric. I live near a large metro area, and the local cable company finally figured out that there was money to be made offering their very fast/reliable cable service to businesses. For $10/mo *less* than I was paying for 1.5/384 DSL with 8 static IPs, I now get 6.0/1.5 w/5 static IPs from Comcast. My only regret is that I could not continue to do business with Speakeasy, which is hands down the best ISP I've ever seen. The Comcast package has thus far (about 4 months) been flawless. They have a separate support group for business customers, they handled my reverse DNS perfectly and promptly, and - if I remain on the local backbone for testing - the system actually peaks to over 20Mb/sec. If you're not too far away from the CO you can try adsl2, but if your copper is lousy for dsl, it will be lousy for that as well. In both the UK and Ireland, one of the available different fabric solutions is broadband over a wireless connection using point-to-point radio or microwave connections with dishes mounted on the outside of the building. These rely on line of sight to the ISPs mast, and are therefore typically available only in large urban areas, but where they are available, I have found them to be more reliable than DSL. Personal experience: using them in several sites in the greater Dublin area (Ireland) and in the Belfast area (UK) for my company and our staff members who work from home. Additional benefits of this type of connection is that it is symmetrical (same upload and download speed) and, in the UK and Ireland at least, comes with with a fixed IP address as standard. (I have a friend in Kosovo who has the same technology deployed with private IP address ranges, so that does depend on your ISP) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
available only in large urban areas, but where they are available, I have found them to be more reliable than DSL. only with point-to-point case, and only if local law doesn't work the way to prevent this. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:01:52 -0500, David Banning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I notice very inconsistent results. Sometimes it's up for a week without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds, down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1. That can go on for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so. It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down. . . . I had similar symptoms last year during the hottest part of summer after a big storm. The thought was that the heat and humidity had compromised the wiring between my location and the central office. As it ends up, the problem had existed for years but the previous owner had figured 384 down 128 up was the maximum the line length would permit and the phone company was hardly going to admit there was a problem unless pressed. So here's my question: 1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines that can tell me how common this is? It depends on the condition of the infrastructure which varies widely in the US from area to area. 2. Is there any way to avoid it? Is this DSL installed on a line that also has a dial tone? If so when the service becomes erratic, try leaving the phone off hook in order to continuously draw a current through the line. If the line is suffering from a dry open, then the DSL connection will be restored while the phone is off the hook. On telephone lines used for dial service, a line with a dry open condition will manifest as a scratchy/noisy telephone line. When used in DSL service, performance will be very limited because of the high impedance state when no current is flowing through it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
David Banning wrote: I run a small FreeBSD server with a standard DSL line. I have it ping the ISP every five seconds, and when it doesn't ping it logs the results. I notice very inconsistent results. Sometimes it's up for a week without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds, down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1. That can go on for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so. It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down. To end any possibility of the phone company pointing their finger at the wiring in my house, I put the DSL modem right at the phone connection block where the line enters the house and then called them. Problem persists. The phone company say they have replaced lines all over the neighborhood while trying to fix the problem. Eventually the connection becomes stable, the phone company declares that they found the problem, but when he's gone, the trouble starts again. Now knowing how common this is, I installed the same logging system at another company's server, that is located a few miles away. Guess what? Same drop-in drop-out problem. To any average computer user, these lines might appear normal - when a page stops loading for a minute they just live with it, and forget about it. So here's my question: 1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines that can tell me how common this is? 2. Is there any way to avoid it? 3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260, and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended? Any comments would be helpful. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aloha David, We had a similar issue here in Wahiawa Hi. and the phone line was indeed the problem. In our case it was a junction about a .5 mile (1 KM) away . The box on a pole was full of water when ever it was raining. When it dried out everything would be fine for a while. The phone guy drilled a hole in the bottom of the box and we have not had the problem since. It could also be a bank of d slams at the phone co office as well. Some are know to have issues. In Canada you have freezes and thaws that make lines have flaws from expansion and contraction too. ( I used to live there.) Good Luck with the phone co. ~Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii - Phone: 808-284-2740 + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + + http://aloha50.net - Supporting - FreeBSD 6.* - 7.* + 8.* All that's really worth doing is what we do for others.- Lewis Carrol ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
Thanks Wojciech, for your thoughts. make sure you don't get a timeout because of high load or simply - the server you ping doesn't respond. Check that - it's not line problem but modem hardware problem or their routing problem. But isn't the sync going down a sign of a bad line connection? The ISP I used leases the lines from the telephone company, and when they hear sync is down they just call the phone company and tell them to solve it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds, down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1. That can go on for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so. It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down. make sure you don't get a timeout because of high load or simply - the server you ping doesn't respond. To end any possibility of the phone company pointing their finger at the wiring in my house, I put the DSL modem right at the phone connection block where the line enters the house and then called them. Problem persists. looks like polish telecom isn't anyway special ;) found the problem, but when he's gone, the trouble starts again. it's not line problem but modem hardware problem or their routing problem. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
David Banning wrote: SNIP e drop-in drop-out problem. To any average computer user, these lines might appear normal - when a page stops loading for a minute they just live with it, and forget about it. So here's my question: 1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines that can tell me how common this is? I cannot speak to the frequency of connection loss, but I have seen huge variability (over months) in *speed* if the premise is far away/at the limit of the DSL connection distance. DSL is quite fussy about the distance between the CPE and the phone company CO locations. But distance here is logical or electrical distance - almost always greater than straightline between the CO and the premsise. Why? Because phone company lines run in raceways (usually underground) that do not take the shortest path. Moreover, as construction and other changes in the neighborhood mandate, trunks are changed, lines spliced, pairs moved and so on. So... the electrical distance from CO to premise is typically further than the straight distance. This constant fiddling with the phone company infrastructure causes all manner of sins including intermittent electrical noise, disconnection, modem retraining, and just plain poor signal-to-noise ratio. And - in my experience - it can vary all over the place, from as low as 30% to 100% of claimed channel capacity. Welcome to DSL - where you are once again at the mercy of the phone company. 2. Is there any way to avoid it? Yes - switch to different fabric. I live near a large metro area, and the local cable company finally figured out that there was money to be made offering their very fast/reliable cable service to businesses. For $10/mo *less* than I was paying for 1.5/384 DSL with 8 static IPs, I now get 6.0/1.5 w/5 static IPs from Comcast. My only regret is that I could not continue to do business with Speakeasy, which is hands down the best ISP I've ever seen. The Comcast package has thus far (about 4 months) been flawless. They have a separate support group for business customers, they handled my reverse DNS perfectly and promptly, and - if I remain on the local backbone for testing - the system actually peaks to over 20Mb/sec. If you're not too far away from the CO you can try adsl2, but if your copper is lousy for dsl, it will be lousy for that as well. The real answer is to get your ISP to light the fires under their phone company provider and make them fix their copper properly. Good luck with that. The phone company - at least in the US - isn't particularly obligated to make DSL work. They only have to hit some signal-to-noise standard. After that, it's up to your DSL provider to make it happen. 3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260, and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended? Maybe not more money, but trying different devices can help. The Broadext modems I used were twice the speed of the old Speedstreams on the same circuit. Newer chipsets should be more noise immune, but they cannot fix lousy copper in the phone system. Any comments would be helpful. One other thing to check. There should be a grounding wire coming off the NID (the box on the side of the building where the phone co terminates their copper). The wire is typically clamped to a stake in the ground. Make sure that the wire/stake surfaces are clean, and the clamp is tight to ensure the best possible earth ground connection. Once you cleaned/tightened this, it's not a bad idea to cover it with grease to keep moisture out. A small bit of electrical resistance on an earth ground can translate into very nasty noise spikes when there is an inductive noise source (like an electrical motor starting) somewhere near you. Good luck. The phone company was built around a voice model with a 300-3000 Hz bandwidth design criteria. That's been vastly improved as the phone backbones went all digital in the past 40 years, BUT, the last mile copper is/was the last thing to change. Oddly, even when they build new buildings (as was the case in my premise), they often don't do a great job with the copper. P.S. If all else fails, there's satellite and/or cellular internet. However, these are both rather expensive, not that fast, and have significant latency problems. Latency isn't that big a deal for data downloads, but it rears its ugly head when you want to stream audio/video or any other kind of quasi real time data. I feel your pain ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: question on DSL signal
Check that - it's not line problem but modem hardware problem or their routing problem. But isn't the sync going down a sign of a bad line connection? yes it is. i don't know what modem/router your ISP uses, but the one that polish telecom gives has 2 connection leds one is titled DSL other i titled Internet DSL lits when line connection is OK, Internet lights up when all routing is active, their pppoe tunneling they do etc. etc. i often get situations that DSL was on but Internet off. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]