RE: question on DSL signal

2008-02-07 Thread Ted Mittelstaedt


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Banning
 Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 12:02 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: question on DSL signal
 
 
 I run a small FreeBSD server with a standard DSL line. I have it ping
 the ISP every five seconds, and when it doesn't ping it logs the
 results.
 
 
 3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home
quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260,
and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on
another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended?
 

I work at an ISP and do this stuff for a living.

Westell makes some very good DSL modems.  The 2100 and the
35R515, 516, etc. series are great.  These are dumb bridges,
so your BSD system must speak PPP if thats what your ISP uses.
(we don't, we use bridged mode)

There's a program (wdiag 0.9) you can compile that will query the
36R51x series of modems for statistics.  Here's an example
from my own home DSL line plugged into my FreeBSD system:

mail# pwd
/usr/ports/distfiles/manual-build/wdiag/src
mail# ./wstart
mail# ./westell
Uptime Counter: 24696500
Upstream SNR: 90
Upstream Power: 120
Upstream Attenuation: 315
Upstream Sync Rate: 768
Downstream SNR: 50
Downstream Power: 180
Downstream Attenuation: 535
Downstream Sync Rate: 1536
FEC Errors: 0
CRC Errors: 0
HEC Errors: 0
Signal Lost: 0
Frame Lost: 0
Tx Cell: 7071744
Rx Cells: 8183507
Dropped Cells: n/a
Rx Ethernet: 60256998
Tx Ethernet: 55199128
Discarded Ethernet: 0
mail# ./wstop
mail# 

Anyway, as the other poster said, your problem is copper.  Your ISP
has to just keep calling the phone company and dispatching a tech
out there.  Weekly if necessary.  We had the same problem with one
of our customers provisioned through Verizon.  It went on for months
and the customer was under the impression that the problem was the
modem, so every time she had a problem she would call up and ask
to have her modem exchanged.  I must have put a dozen modems out there,
and of course the returned ones tested fine.  I knew the problem
was wiring not the modem but the modem swap thing made her happy.
(no big deal for us we just gave the modems to other customers)
The problem with dispatching a tech was that she was never home
and her MPOE was in a dog run, and she wasn't really willing to
setup access for the phone techs to get to the MPOE.
Finally one day a tree fell in the neighborhood and knocked down a
phone pole.  After Verizon repaired that, problem vanished.
The tree was about 3 blocks from her house.

For instances when the customer was willing to stick around to
let the tech have access, it usually takes about 3 dispatches on
the tough ones before they are fixed.  The local phone company
dispatcher is wise to the deal and when they see multiple repeat
calls to the same site they will send out their experienced linemen.
The greenhorn linemen can't troubleshoot DSL worth crap.  Just
keep on dispatching them.  The tech guys at the CO can look at the
DSLAM statistics and see the same thing that you can see if you
query the modem stats, and if your copper is bad it can't be hidden
in the stats.

As for all the talk about the phone company not caring, that is
baloney.  The phone company is very interested in DSL and works
to fix the problems.  It is true that some linemen think DSL is
a waste of their time and don't lift a finger to actually get
in there and feel around for the line problems.  But this isn't
the corporate party line on DSL at any phone company, and if 
you get blown off by a lineman giving you a raft of crap like 
they can't fix it, call the ISP and the ISP can force escalation
and get a manager in there who can get a different phone tech
who knows what he's doing.

This stuff isn't rocket science, frankly your problem is your
ISP, unless of course your using the telephone company as the
ISP also, in which case your not ever going to talk to anyone
competent.  Good luck with that.  There's a reason people use
3rd party ISPs.

Ted
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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-05 Thread Derek Ragona

At 02:01 PM 2/4/2008, David Banning wrote:

I run a small FreeBSD server with a standard DSL line. I have it ping
the ISP every five seconds, and when it doesn't ping it logs the
results.

I notice very inconsistent results. Sometimes it's up for a week
without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds,
down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1.  That can go on
for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so.
It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the
modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down.

To end any possibility of the phone company pointing their finger
at the wiring in my house, I put the DSL modem right at the phone
connection block where the line enters the house and then called
them. Problem persists.

The phone company say they have replaced lines all over the
neighborhood while trying to fix the problem.  Eventually the
connection becomes stable, the phone company declares that they
found the problem, but when he's gone, the trouble starts again.

Now knowing how common this is,  I installed the same logging system
at another company's server, that is located a few miles away. Guess
what?  Same drop-in drop-out problem.

To any average computer user, these lines might appear normal -
when a page stops loading for a minute they just live with it, and
forget about it.

So here's my question:

1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines
   that can tell me how common this is?


It is fairly common as the number of DSL providers is large, but they rely 
on the copper wires in place that may or may not be well maintained that 
are usually owned by another firm.  So getting the copper actually fixed 
can take a lot of persistence and patience.  Often these lines are from old 
voice circuits that were not nearly as demanding as DSL.  Worse, at least 
around me in the midwest, often indoor boxes and such are used outside 
which causes a lot of issues with digital lines.




2. Is there any way to avoid it?


Get all new wiring in place.



3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home
   quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260,
   and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on
   another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended?


I'm not sure if the modems really matter as it is likely a noisy line 
either from other drops still in place, bad junctions, or just old wires 
getting crosstalk.


Keep a log of problem times, noting the weather, time of day, and anything 
else that could be a factor.


-Derek

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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-05 Thread Wojciech Puchar
It is fairly common as the number of DSL providers is large, but they rely on 
the copper wires in place that may or may not be well maintained that are 
usually owned by another firm.  So getting the copper actually fixed can take


in Polish free market polish telecom leases line to anyone - at prices 
higher than their DSL service... ;)


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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-05 Thread Michael Doyle


On 4 Feb 2008, at 21:49, Tim Daneliuk wrote:


David Banning wrote:
snip

2. Is there any way to avoid it?


Yes - switch to different fabric.  I live near a large metro area,
and the local cable company finally figured out that there was
money to be made offering their very fast/reliable cable service
to businesses.  For $10/mo *less* than I was paying for
1.5/384 DSL with 8 static IPs, I now get 6.0/1.5 w/5 static IPs
from Comcast.  My only regret is that I could not continue to
do business with Speakeasy, which is hands down the best ISP
I've ever seen.  The Comcast package has thus far (about 4 months)
been flawless.  They have a separate support group for business
customers, they handled my reverse DNS perfectly and promptly,
and - if I remain on the local backbone for testing - the system
actually peaks to over 20Mb/sec.

If you're not too far away from the CO you can try adsl2,
but if your copper is lousy for dsl, it will be lousy for
that as well.


In both the UK and Ireland, one of the available different fabric  
solutions is broadband over a
wireless connection using point-to-point radio or microwave  
connections with dishes

mounted on the outside of the building.

These rely on line of sight to the ISPs mast, and are therefore  
typically available only in large
urban areas, but where they are available, I have found them to be  
more reliable than DSL.


Personal experience: using them in several sites in the greater Dublin  
area (Ireland) and in the
Belfast area (UK) for my company and our staff members who work from  
home.


Additional benefits of this type of connection is that it is  
symmetrical  (same upload and download speed)
and, in the UK and Ireland at least, comes with with a fixed IP  
address as standard. (I have a friend in Kosovo
who has the same technology deployed with private IP address ranges,  
so that does depend on your ISP)

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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-05 Thread Wojciech Puchar

available only in large
urban areas, but where they are available, I have found them to be more 
reliable than DSL.


only with point-to-point case, and only if local law doesn't work the way 
to prevent this.

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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-05 Thread David W . Hess
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:01:52 -0500, David Banning
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I notice very inconsistent results. Sometimes it's up for a week
without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds,
down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1.  That can go on
for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so.
It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the
modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down.

 . . .

I had similar symptoms last year during the hottest part of summer after a big 
storm.  The
thought was that the heat and humidity had compromised the wiring between my 
location and
the central office.  As it ends up, the problem had existed for years but the 
previous
owner had figured 384 down 128 up was the maximum the line length would permit 
and the
phone company was hardly going to admit there was a problem unless pressed.

So here's my question:

1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines
   that can tell me how common this is?

It depends on the condition of the infrastructure which varies widely in the US 
from area
to area.

2. Is there any way to avoid it?

Is this DSL installed on a line that also has a dial tone?  If so when the 
service becomes
erratic, try leaving the phone off hook in order to continuously draw a current 
through
the line.  If the line is suffering from a dry open, then the DSL connection 
will be
restored while the phone is off the hook.

On telephone lines used for dial service, a line with a dry open condition will 
manifest
as a scratchy/noisy telephone line.  When used in DSL service, performance will 
be very
limited because of the high impedance state when no current is flowing through 
it.

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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-05 Thread NetOpsCenter

David Banning wrote:

I run a small FreeBSD server with a standard DSL line. I have it ping
the ISP every five seconds, and when it doesn't ping it logs the
results.

I notice very inconsistent results. Sometimes it's up for a week
without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds,
down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1.  That can go on
for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so.
It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the
modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down.

To end any possibility of the phone company pointing their finger
at the wiring in my house, I put the DSL modem right at the phone
connection block where the line enters the house and then called
them. Problem persists.

The phone company say they have replaced lines all over the
neighborhood while trying to fix the problem.  Eventually the
connection becomes stable, the phone company declares that they
found the problem, but when he's gone, the trouble starts again.

Now knowing how common this is,  I installed the same logging system
at another company's server, that is located a few miles away. Guess
what?  Same drop-in drop-out problem.

To any average computer user, these lines might appear normal -
when a page stops loading for a minute they just live with it, and
forget about it.

So here's my question:

1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines
   that can tell me how common this is?

2. Is there any way to avoid it?

3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home
   quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260,
   and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on
   another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended?

Any comments would be helpful.
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Aloha David,

We had a similar issue here in Wahiawa Hi.  and the phone line was 
indeed the problem. In our case it was a junction about a .5 mile (1 
KM)  away . The box on a pole was full of water when ever it was 
raining. When it dried  out everything would be fine for a while. The 
phone guy drilled a hole in the bottom of the box and we have not had 
the problem since. It could also be a bank of d slams  at the phone co 
office as well.  Some  are know to have issues. In Canada you have 
freezes and thaws that make lines have flaws from expansion and 
contraction too. ( I used to live there.)


Good Luck with the phone co.

~Al Plant - Honolulu, Hawaii -  Phone:  808-284-2740
 + http://hawaiidakine.com + http://freebsdinfo.org + [EMAIL PROTECTED] +
 + http://aloha50.net   - Supporting - FreeBSD 6.* - 7.* + 8.*
All that's really worth doing is what we do for others.- Lewis Carrol


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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-04 Thread David Banning

Thanks Wojciech, for your thoughts.
make sure you don't get a timeout because of high load or simply - the 
server you ping doesn't respond.



Check that -
it's not line problem but modem hardware problem or their routing 
problem.

But isn't the sync going down a sign of a bad line connection?
The ISP I used leases the lines from the telephone company, and when 
they hear sync is down

they just call the phone company and tell them to solve it.
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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar

without a single drop, while other times it's up for 30 seconds,
down for a minute, up for 2 minutes, down for 1.  That can go on
for 10 hours, and then maybe it's stable again for a day or so.
It's always appears to be the DSL signal itself, as I can see the
modem sync light starts flashing when the signal goes down.


make sure you don't get a timeout because of high load or simply - the 
server you ping doesn't respond.



To end any possibility of the phone company pointing their finger
at the wiring in my house, I put the DSL modem right at the phone
connection block where the line enters the house and then called
them. Problem persists.


looks like polish telecom isn't anyway  special ;)


found the problem, but when he's gone, the trouble starts again.


it's not line problem but modem hardware problem or their routing problem.
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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-04 Thread Tim Daneliuk

David Banning wrote:
SNIP

e drop-in drop-out problem.


To any average computer user, these lines might appear normal -
when a page stops loading for a minute they just live with it, and
forget about it.

So here's my question:

1. is there anyone who has a lot of experience monitoring DSL lines
   that can tell me how common this is?


I cannot speak to the frequency of connection loss, but I have seen
huge variability (over months) in *speed* if the premise is
far away/at the limit of the DSL connection distance.  DSL
is quite fussy about the distance between the CPE and the
phone company CO locations.  But distance here is logical
or electrical distance - almost always greater than straightline
between the CO and the premsise.  Why?  Because phone company lines
run in raceways (usually underground) that do not take the
shortest path.  Moreover, as construction and other changes
in the neighborhood mandate, trunks are changed, lines spliced,
pairs moved and so on.  So... the electrical distance from
CO to premise is typically further than the straight distance.

This constant fiddling with the phone company infrastructure causes
all manner of sins including intermittent electrical noise, disconnection,
modem retraining, and just plain poor signal-to-noise ratio.  And -
in my experience - it can vary all over the place, from as low as 30% to 100%
of claimed channel capacity.

Welcome to DSL - where you are once again at the mercy of the phone company.


2. Is there any way to avoid it?


Yes - switch to different fabric.  I live near a large metro area,
and the local cable company finally figured out that there was
money to be made offering their very fast/reliable cable service
to businesses.  For $10/mo *less* than I was paying for
1.5/384 DSL with 8 static IPs, I now get 6.0/1.5 w/5 static IPs
from Comcast.  My only regret is that I could not continue to
do business with Speakeasy, which is hands down the best ISP
I've ever seen.  The Comcast package has thus far (about 4 months)
been flawless.  They have a separate support group for business
customers, they handled my reverse DNS perfectly and promptly,
and - if I remain on the local backbone for testing - the system
actually peaks to over 20Mb/sec.

If you're not too far away from the CO you can try adsl2,
but if your copper is lousy for dsl, it will be lousy for
that as well.

The real answer is to get your ISP to light the fires under
their phone company provider and make them fix their copper
properly.  Good luck with that.  The phone company - at least
in the US - isn't particularly obligated to make DSL work.
They only have to hit some signal-to-noise standard.  After
that, it's up to your DSL provider to make it happen.



3. I have used three different DSL modems, but the are all home
   quality: an Alcatel Speed Touch, a Speedstream 5260,
   and a Westell Wirespeed. Would spending more money on
   another type of modem help? If so, what is recommended?


Maybe not more money, but trying different devices can help.
The Broadext modems I used were twice the speed of the old
Speedstreams on the same circuit.  Newer chipsets should be
more noise immune, but they cannot fix lousy copper in
the phone system.



Any comments would be helpful.


One other thing to check.  There should be a grounding wire
coming off the NID (the box on the side of the building
where the phone co terminates their copper).  The wire is
typically clamped to a stake in the ground.  Make sure that
the wire/stake surfaces are clean, and the clamp is tight
to ensure the best possible earth ground connection.  Once
you cleaned/tightened this, it's not a bad idea to cover it
with grease to keep moisture out.  A small bit of electrical
resistance on an earth ground can translate into very nasty
noise spikes when there is an inductive noise source (like
an electrical motor starting) somewhere near you.

Good luck.  The phone company was built around a voice
model with a 300-3000 Hz bandwidth design criteria.  That's
been vastly improved as the phone backbones went all digital
in the past 40 years, BUT, the last mile copper is/was
the last thing to change.  Oddly, even when they build new
buildings (as was the case in my premise), they often don't
do a great job with the copper.

P.S. If all else fails, there's satellite and/or cellular internet.
 However, these are both rather expensive, not that fast,
 and have significant latency problems.  Latency isn't that
 big a deal for data downloads, but it rears its ugly head
 when you want to stream audio/video or any other kind of
 quasi real time data.

I feel your pain ;)
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Re: question on DSL signal

2008-02-04 Thread Wojciech Puchar



Check that -

it's not line problem but modem hardware problem or their routing problem.

But isn't the sync going down a sign of a bad line connection?


yes it is.

i don't know what modem/router your ISP uses, but the one that polish 
telecom gives has 2 connection leds


one is titled DSL other i titled Internet

DSL lits when line connection is OK, Internet lights up when all routing 
is active, their pppoe tunneling they do etc. etc.


i often get situations that DSL was on but Internet off.
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