Re: who wrote this

2007-12-05 Thread Old Ranger

Jerry McAllister wrote:

On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 06:12:40AM -0500, Gerard wrote:

  

On November 30, 2007 at 02:37AM Erich Dollansky wrote:
  

[ snip ]



sensorship starts in the mind of the people.
  

   ^
censorship 



Well, maybe not if you are referring to the aesthetic appreciation
of the item in question...

Then again if you are part of one of those religious groups that 
like to perfume the place before praying, it would be censership.


jerry

  

--
Gerard



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Ok, OK!!!
The troll is coming out from under the bridge...

First of all, the worst of humanoid units sometimes comes up with 
valuable quotes; that warrant repeating.
By contrast, what most perceive as the best of humanoid units seldom 
utter profound and/or timeless sayings.


The only thing men learn from history, is that men never learn from 
history.

A quote from , someone.

If some thin-skinned, limp-wristed, left-handed, intellectual wanna-be's 
whine about the name Hitler on ANY website, then let them whine!


Personally, I hardly ever use quotes from Hitler when illustrating 
points - but that doesn't mean that any of his material wasn't relevant, 
or isn't relevant today.
Usually, I steer toward Nietzsche when  looking for applicable quotes 
for modern times.
But then, (and I speak from sad experience with this) the Holy Bible 
offends nearly everyone these days.
Try quoting from the prophet Jeremiah, and see how many people tell you 
to shut up.


Hitler, Jeremiah, Hosea, Amos, Ruckman...it doesn't matter who you 
quote, or even mention; someone is going to be offended.


I say, Three Cheers for the FreeBSD team!  No Guts, No Glory.

All whiners should get some personal counseling, or, like the song 
says...GET OVER IT


Dr. Z. Wade Hampton
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-30 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 06:12:40AM -0500, Gerard wrote:

  On November 30, 2007 at 02:37AM Erich Dollansky wrote:
 
 [ snip ]
 
  sensorship starts in the mind of the people.
^
 censorship 

Well, maybe not if you are referring to the aesthetic appreciation
of the item in question...

Then again if you are part of one of those religious groups that 
like to perfume the place before praying, it would be censership.

jerry

 
 -- 
 Gerard

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-30 Thread Michaël Grünewald
Boris Samorodov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:14:30 -0800 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

 Fundamentally, you have to be educated to understand it.  FreeBSD
 is first and formost, for the educated computer user.

 Ted, you may exchange famous Hitler's quotes with your highly educated
 friends, laugh at Hirosima's anecdotes with your highly educated
 japanese friends, etc. But every educated person should understand
 what may be done privately and what should be done publicly.

Making fun out of Hitler or Hiroshima is not in question here. Not every
fortune cookie is supposed to be funny. Some of them are quotes from wise
men, some from foolish ones, etc.; whenever the fortune program picks
one and shows it to you, it's a side of human kind you see.

Speaking of Hitler publicly is done in every school, which is relevant
since we can be sure a new Hitler will come on day or the other to the
Earth; and we all want to recognize him as quickly as possible.

(BTW, it seems you have totally misunderstood Ted's position.)
-- 
Cheers,
Michaël
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-30 Thread Gerard
 On November 30, 2007 at 02:37AM Erich Dollansky wrote:

[ snip ]

 sensorship starts in the mind of the people.
   ^
censorship 

-- 
Gerard

pgpfLhmsC0AuY.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: who wrote this

2007-11-30 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

Gerard wrote:

On November 30, 2007 at 02:37AM Erich Dollansky wrote:


[ snip ]


sensorship starts in the mind of the people.

   ^
censorship 


I have had a good laugh on this.

Let me tell you, why it was so.

I have had to write two documents over the last month with the word 
sensor or sense in every other sentence.


It just shows how limited the own mind gets when it is busy with certain 
things and then even the spell checker does not complain anymore. It 
does not matter anymore what the words really mean.


Erich
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-30 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 10:05:45AM +0300, Boris Samorodov wrote:

 On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:26:11 -0500 Jerry McAllister wrote:
 
  the hitler example remain with it because it establishes 
  a very strong case-in-point example.
 
 Yep, shoot someone and then say -- hey, that's the best example of
 what shouldn't be done!

But, the shooting has already been done.
Don't make it even more meaningless by learning nothing from it.

jerry

 
 
 WBR
 -- 
 Boris Samorodov (bsam)
 Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone  Internet SP
 FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-29 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:26:11 -0500 Jerry McAllister wrote:

 the hitler example remain with it because it establishes 
 a very strong case-in-point example.

Yep, shoot someone and then say -- hey, that's the best example of
what shouldn't be done!


WBR
-- 
Boris Samorodov (bsam)
Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone  Internet SP
FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-29 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:14:30 -0800 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

 Fundamentally, you have to be educated to understand it.  FreeBSD
 is first and formost, for the educated computer user.

Ted, you may exchange famous Hitler's quotes with your highly educated
friends, laugh at Hirosima's anecdotes with your highly educated
japanese friends, etc. But every educated person should understand
what may be done privately and what should be done publicly. Let's
have enough tact not to bother very sensitive history at the
official FreeBSD site.


WBR
-- 
Boris Samorodov (bsam)
Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone  Internet SP
FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-29 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:37:24 +0800 Erich Dollansky wrote:

 sensorship starts in the mind of the people.

True. That's why:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=www/118284


WBR
-- 
Boris Samorodov (bsam)
Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone  Internet SP
FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-29 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

Boris Samorodov wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:14:30 -0800 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:


Fundamentally, you have to be educated to understand it.  FreeBSD
is first and formost, for the educated computer user.


Ted, you may exchange famous Hitler's quotes with your highly educated
friends, laugh at Hirosima's anecdotes with your highly educated
japanese friends, etc. But every educated person should understand
what may be done privately and what should be done publicly. Let's
have enough tact not to bother very sensitive history at the
official FreeBSD site.


sensorship starts in the mind of the people.

Erich
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-28 Thread Chad Perrin
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 11:26:47PM -0600, icantthinkofone wrote:
 Oh, who the heck cares.  The guy is dead and he's not going to hurt you 
 so get a life people.  If you ban Hitler then ban Stalin and Mussolini 
 and let's go back another thousand years and dig up those graves, too.  
 Move on!

That's a much better way to put it than mine.

-- 
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Anonymous: Eat your crow early, while it's young and tender.  Don't wait
until it's old and tough.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-28 Thread Chad Perrin
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:14:30PM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
 
 For example, a famous quote of Hitler's is:
 
 I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.

That raises an interesting point:

There are quotes that, taken out of context, might be seen as
offensive.  In many cases, the in context presentation that makes the
inoffensive are those that involve attributing them to the monsters who
uttered the words in the first place.  Let's take two hypothetical
examples . . .

  1. I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.
 - Anonymous

  2. I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.
 - Adolf Hitler

Frankly, I find the latter to be more valuable, because it says something
about the psychology of a genocidal leader of men.  The former might be
considered offensive by some, because it's a statement whose implications
in and of itself are disturbing when taken as it is presented without
context -- as a maxim to live by.  I'd rather see example 2 than example
1, personally.  If I saw the Hitler-attributed version come up in a
fortune, it would be thought-provoking.  If I saw the unattributed
version (and didn't know Hitler said it), I would think What the hell is
this doing here?


 
 Fundamentally, you have to be educated to understand it.  FreeBSD
 is first and formost, for the educated computer user.

That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

-- 
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Ben Franklin: As we enjoy great Advantages from the Inventions of others
we should be glad of an Opportunity to serve others by any Invention of
ours, and this we should do freely and generously.
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Re: [freebsd-questions] Re: who wrote this

2007-11-28 Thread Tuc at T-B-O-H.NET
Randomly found this :

http://xkcd.com/261/

Tuc
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-27 Thread Bart Silverstrim



Erich Dollansky wrote:

Hi,

eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:12:36PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:




1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an 
appropriate forum to express political views.  so whether we are for 
or against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really 
does not matter.  what matters is how good our coding is, and how 
appropriate the wording on our website.  because like it or not, we 
have to present a decent website that does not offend our users and 
does not make us look bad in front of non-users.


this reasoning was one of the main excuses of Germans after the war was 
lost. 'I only did my job'.


This thread has been a wonderful demonstration of how people rationalize 
and interpret information.


The poster before you was saying that they don't care what your non-BSD 
related views are, keep them to yourself.  They're saying the priority 
is to promote and evangelize BSD. The political commentary has nothing 
to do with the OS, so it reflects on the community when threads like 
this are pursued.


Somehow, you're saying the Germans rationalized their atrocities with 
the excuse they were only doing their jobs.


A) I don't see how the two are related at all.  You're not making any 
clear justification for that reply.
B) What happened was more a demonstration of society and psychology than 
having an entire nation suddenly go insane.  Every society has 
elements that to an outsider with their own culture and standards seems 
insane, and events of the period will also influence perceptions.


It's also very clear that Germany wasn't one cohesive anti-Jewish loony 
bin.  They were people, plain Jane citizens with their own beliefs and 
lives.


that's what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting 
is that we remove his name from the website: 


Is there a shorter way to express the same thing?


Replace everything mildly offensive with the string Anonymous or Chuck 
or Beastie.  Whitewashing everything is the clearest way to having an 
enlightened community.


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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Frank Shute
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:12:36PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

 PS. What should be abolished on the grounds of decency is top posting
  rehashing topics that have been gone on about ad nauseum,  on the
 wrong mailing list.
 
 My apologies for top posting, will never happen again.  I've never posted 
 to a list before.

That's OK but what isn't OK is to take somebody elses post 
selectively edit it when quoting from it, like you have done to my
post.

You also failed to address most of my points.

 
 Learn to
 moderate yourselves, this is what freedom is all based on, being good 
 to
 others.
 
 Nonsense. Freedom is about the right to voice disagreement with
 others amongst other things.
 
 Do you even notice the irony in what you said?

Artur, it was meant to be ironic :) I haven't got the right to stop
top posting no more than you have.

And you haven't got the right to excise Hitler's name from FreeBSD
material. Don't you see the irony in that? When he banned certain
artists on the grounds of decency just like you're proposing to do.

Just because he was evil doesn't mean he and the rest of his
henchmen didn't have something interesting to say about the human
condition. If you don't believe me, read Brave New World: Revisited
by A.Huxley.

Follow-ups to chatfreebsd.org please.

Regards,

-- 

 Frank 


 Contact info: http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/misc/contact.html 

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:23:56 -0600 eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

 All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 ==
  Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
  * Hitler quotes.
 ==
 Ok I understand that some moron wrote it, but why has nobody removed
 this garbage?

Hm, I'm astonished. I've never seen that page before...

English is not my native language and I may not understand all nuances
though. Does that phrase mean Hitler quotes are not usually be
declared 'offensive'? For me that means that there some (and very
little) his quotes that should be treated as 'offensive'.


WBR
-- 
bsam
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread DAve
Boris Samorodov wrote:
 On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:23:56 -0600 eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 
 All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 ==
 Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
 * Hitler quotes.
 ==
 Ok I understand that some moron wrote it, but why has nobody removed
 this garbage?
 
 Hm, I'm astonished. I've never seen that page before...
 
 English is not my native language and I may not understand all nuances
 though. Does that phrase mean Hitler quotes are not usually be
 declared 'offensive'? For me that means that there some (and very
 little) his quotes that should be treated as 'offensive'.
 
 
 WBR

I read the page as instruction to be attentive to content *and* context.
The who matters little in comparison to the what. Fascinating to me that
things like the logo and that page can generate so much list mail.

DAve


-- 
I've been asking Google for a Veteran's Day logo since 2000,
maybe 1999. I was told they finally did a Veteran's Day logo,
but none of the links I was given return anything but a
normal Google logo.

Sad, very sad. Maybe the Chinese Government didn't like it?

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Boris Samorodov
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:30:16 -0500 DAve wrote:
 Boris Samorodov wrote:

  English is not my native language and I may not understand all nuances
  though. Does that phrase mean Hitler quotes are not usually be
  declared 'offensive'? For me that means that there some (and very
  little) his quotes that should be treated as 'offensive'.

 I read the page as instruction to be attentive to content *and* context.

So you agreed that the page about Fortune File Commit Policy is not
complete. Good.

 The who matters little in comparison to the what. Fascinating to me that
 things like the logo and that page can generate so much list mail.


WBR
-- 
bsam
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:12:36PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:


PS. What should be abolished on the grounds of decency is top posting
 rehashing topics that have been gone on about ad nauseum,  on the
wrong mailing list.

My apologies for top posting, will never happen again.  I've never posted
to a list before.


That's OK but what isn't OK is to take somebody elses post 
selectively edit it when quoting from it, like you have done to my
post.

You also failed to address most of my points.


Frank,  No offense, but who has time to go through all points of every post 
and respond.  There was much said here but i want to keep this post on 
topic.






Learn to
moderate yourselves, this is what freedom is all based on, being good
to
others.

Nonsense. Freedom is about the right to voice disagreement with
others amongst other things.

Do you even notice the irony in what you said?


Artur, it was meant to be ironic :) I haven't got the right to stop
top posting no more than you have.



My apologies, I'm reading everything as an attack now a days.  :-)



And you haven't got the right to excise Hitler's name from FreeBSD
material. Don't you see the irony in that? When he banned certain
artists on the grounds of decency just like you're proposing to do.



Two points

1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an 
appropriate forum to express political views.  so whether we are for or 
against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really does not 
matter.  what matters is how good our coding is, and how appropriate the 
wording on our website.  because like it or not, we have to present a decent 
website that does not offend our users and does not make us look bad in 
front of non-users.


2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying to 
do.  I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if that's 
what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting is that we 
remove his name from the website: 
(http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to 
innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and 
unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of insensitive 
jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.   People who come 
accross this wording will not stop to think about all the deep philosophical 
reasons why the text needs to be there to protect freedoms.  All they will 
see is that we seemingly support Hitler.  Why don't we have other names 
controversial during our times like Mussolini, Stalin, or even Gorge Bush?



Just because he was evil doesn't mean he and the rest of his
henchmen didn't have something interesting to say about the human
condition. If you don't believe me, read Brave New World: Revisited
by A.Huxley.


This has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying.  Listen, my 
grandmother also has some interesting things to say but you don't put her 
name on the front page of the Fortune program because it's not appropriate. 
Same thing here.  Just not an appropriate forum.



Follow-ups to chatfreebsd.org please.



Done and done.

Best regards,

Artur 


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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Paul Schmehl
--On Monday, November 26, 2007 09:30:16 -0500 DAve 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I read the page as instruction to be attentive to content *and* context.
The who matters little in comparison to the what. Fascinating to me that
things like the logo and that page can generate so much list mail.

That's because people are generally so happy with FreeBSD and ports that 
they have to find something else to complain about.  :-)


--
Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Senior Information Security Analyst
The University of Texas at Dallas
http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

Hm, I'm astonished. I've never seen that page before...

English is not my native language and I may not understand all nuances
though. Does that phrase mean Hitler quotes are not usually be
declared 'offensive'? For me that means that there some (and very
little) his quotes that should be treated as 'offensive'.



Hi Boris,

I'm not a native speaker either, but it seems to say that even if hitler 
said it, it may still be appropriate for the random quotes list.


And astonished is exactly what I'm feeling too.

Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com 


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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 03:23:56PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

 All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 ==
 Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
 * Hitler quotes.
 ==

I think the point is that it does not specifically belong in the offensive
list just because the author was Hitler, or for that matter any other
offensive person. Do you want it to say, it doesn't belong in the
offensive list just because Ronald Reagan said it - or that Limburg guy?   
They are offensive persons.

Well, maybe those _do_ all belong in the offensive list.

But, the above is the meaning for the statement on the page.

jerry


 Ok I understand that some moron wrote it, but why has nobody removed this 
 garbage?
 
 Best Regards,
 
 Artur
 eBoundHost.com
 http://www.eboundhost.com 
 
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 05:20:22PM -0500, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
  I might consider the man to be a maniac but he did utter some truths,
  Should we automatically disqualify them?
 
 Even the devil is right sometimes does that mean we should follow him?

Who said anything about following them.   

Mostly those things are added as wry comments - showing the connection
between evil or loose or cynical thinking and evil deeds and letting 
people notice how those thoughts and rationalizations get repeated in 
our current society and politics and business.

Makes a person go 'hh' or it certainly should.

jerry


 
 Let's see:
 
 1 authbaun = 6 million jews
 1 trip to the moon = 50 million russians
 1 vw bug = 20 million brits and americans
 1 war = priceless
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
 
 iD8DBQFHSfUlJ9+1V27SttsRAkMJAJ9XsKT7BcgiLjXgdjg24So6P0S5qACgoHWG
 zq116oPgBb72nbumjnCpJiY=
 =dGDp
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
 
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Dominic Fandrey
eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying
 to do.  I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if
 that's what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting is
 that we remove his name from the website:
 (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
 innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
 unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of
 insensitive jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.
 ...

Quote from the linked website:
 If an entry offends more than a couple of FreeBSD committers and does not
 contain any objective poignant historical reference, the entry should be in
 the offensive file.

I'm not a freebsd committer, but I do feel offended by Hitler quotes (being
German that is understandable, I think). And it's unthinkable for me to put
anything he said anywhere else but into offensive.
Just by being his words a quote is put into an offensive (and not amusing)
context.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 03:23:56PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:


All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
==
Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
* Hitler quotes.
==


I think the point is that it does not specifically belong in the offensive
list just because the author was Hitler, or for that matter any other
offensive person. Do you want it to say, it doesn't belong in the
offensive list just because Ronald Reagan said it - or that Limburg guy?
They are offensive persons.

Well, maybe those _do_ all belong in the offensive list.

But, the above is the meaning for the statement on the page.

jerry


No Jerry, you misunderstood my point.  I'm not talking about which quotes go 
into which list.  My complaint is about how that web page is structured, and 
that its wording should be reworked. 


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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 01:01:42PM +, Frank Shute wrote:

 On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:12:36PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 
  PS. What should be abolished on the grounds of decency is top posting
   rehashing topics that have been gone on about ad nauseum,  on the
  wrong mailing list.
  
  My apologies for top posting, will never happen again.  I've never posted 
  to a list before.
 
 That's OK but what isn't OK is to take somebody elses post 
 selectively edit it when quoting from it, like you have done to my
 post.
 
 You also failed to address most of my points.

So!   He doesn't have any responsibility to respond to all of your posts.
He can respond to whichever ones he wants and ignore all the rest.

That goes for selectively editing.   That is part of the recommended
behavior on the list - to edit out the parts not specifically relevant
to the response so people don't have to wade through a lot of irrelevant
crap to find the actual response.   It is as important as that other
anti-social behavior called top-posting.

jerry

... lots excised ...

 
 Follow-ups to chatfreebsd.org please.
 
 Regards,
 
 -- 
  Frank 
   
  Contact info: http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/misc/contact.html 
 
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:58:08AM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

 On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 03:23:56PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 
 All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 ==
 Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
 * Hitler quotes.
 ==
 
 I think the point is that it does not specifically belong in the offensive
 list just because the author was Hitler, or for that matter any other
 offensive person. Do you want it to say, it doesn't belong in the
 offensive list just because Ronald Reagan said it - or that Limburg guy?
 They are offensive persons.
 
 Well, maybe those _do_ all belong in the offensive list.
 
 But, the above is the meaning for the statement on the page.
 
 jerry
 
 No Jerry, you misunderstood my point.  I'm not talking about which quotes 
 go into which list.  My complaint is about how that web page is structured, 
 and that its wording should be reworked. 

No, I didn't misunderstand it.   You don't like the way they are describing
which goes in to which list.   The current wording is saying that it does
not specifically belong on the offensive list just because it come from
an offensive person.   I, not too tongue-in-cheek suggested some other
examples who might be used in place of the 'hitler' name that could
categorize something coming from an offensive source but not necessarily
belong in the offensive list merely because of the source.

Actually, I think the original page wording is a little skimpy about
the concept, but the example[s] given do very well at illustrating the
intended meaning.  eg, by just saying that hitler quotes are examples
of entries that are not offensive, it leaves to ones ability to 
misunderstand or misinterpret, the reasoning behind hitler quotes not
being offensive entries.One really has to look at the other category
to see that it does not fit in the, somewhat better described, offensive
list category to pick up the reasoning for it being in the non-offensive
list, eg, it ain't one of those so it must be one of these.

So, I haven't yet thought of a good, adequately lean, but clarifying phrase, 
though if one comes to me I will submit it, but a clarifying phrase could 
well be included and the hitler example remain with it because it establishes 
a very strong case-in-point example.

jerry

 
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Marian Hettwer


On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:51:13 +0100, Dominic Fandrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying
 to do.  I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if
 that's what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting is
 that we remove his name from the website:
 (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
 innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
 unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of
 insensitive jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.
 ...
 
 Quote from the linked website:
 If an entry offends more than a couple of FreeBSD committers and does
 not
 contain any objective poignant historical reference, the entry should be
 in
 the offensive file.
 
 I'm not a freebsd committer, but I do feel offended by Hitler quotes
 (being
 German that is understandable, I think). And it's unthinkable for me to
 put
 anything he said anywhere else but into offensive.
 Just by being his words a quote is put into an offensive (and not amusing)
 context.

I do agree with this statement above!
Besides I wouldn't like to see the name Hitler on freebsd's website. It just 
doesn't belong there. Especially when the website is saying, that the quotes 
are not offensive.
Please remove that entry, at least.

Thanks,
Marian

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread eBoundHost: Artur
So, I haven't yet thought of a good, adequately lean, but clarifying 
phrase,

though if one comes to me I will submit it, but a clarifying phrase could
well be included and the hitler example remain with it because it 
establishes

a very strong case-in-point example.


How about something like this:

http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
===
Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
   * Quotes from controversial historical figures, no matter how despicable 
they were.

   * Jokes about emacs/vi or your favorite technology, 
===

Or something along these lines.  It gets the point accross better than 
hitler quotes and does not upset a segment of our users. 


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RE: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread John J Fitzgerald
Can people stop responding to this thread, especially the personal OT back
and forth exchanges? I'm on the freebsd-questions list and it's clogging up
my inbox and has nothing to do with the FreeBSD operating system. I think
most agree the website should be change to exclude the specific reference to
Hitler and I'm going to email the freebsd-www list to see if I can get this
change made, unless someone has a better suggestion on how to get it
changed. Everything else is very OT. Here's one man's plea to stop this
thread now.

-JJF


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marian Hettwer
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 12:28 PM
To: Dominic Fandrey
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Frank Shute; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org;
FreeBSD chat
Subject: Re: who wrote this



On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:51:13 +0100, Dominic Fandrey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying
 to do.  I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if
 that's what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting is
 that we remove his name from the website:
 (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
 innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
 unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of
 insensitive jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.
 ...
 
 Quote from the linked website:
 If an entry offends more than a couple of FreeBSD committers and does
 not
 contain any objective poignant historical reference, the entry should be
 in
 the offensive file.
 
 I'm not a freebsd committer, but I do feel offended by Hitler quotes
 (being
 German that is understandable, I think). And it's unthinkable for me to
 put
 anything he said anywhere else but into offensive.
 Just by being his words a quote is put into an offensive (and not amusing)
 context.

I do agree with this statement above!
Besides I wouldn't like to see the name Hitler on freebsd's website. It just
doesn't belong there. Especially when the website is saying, that the quotes
are not offensive.
Please remove that entry, at least.

Thanks,
Marian

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RE: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Paul Schmehl
--On Monday, November 26, 2007 13:24:52 -0500 John J Fitzgerald 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Can people stop responding to this thread, especially the personal OT back
and forth exchanges? I'm on the freebsd-questions list and it's clogging
up my inbox and has nothing to do with the FreeBSD operating system. I
think most agree the website should be change to exclude the specific
reference to Hitler and I'm going to email the freebsd-www list to see if
I can get this change made, unless someone has a better suggestion on how
to get it changed. Everything else is very OT. Here's one man's plea to
stop this thread now.

The answer was posted a while ago.  Whoever is so motivated should submit a 
pr to get the page edited.  That's how things are done at FreeBSD.


And that should end this thread in questions.

--
Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Senior Information Security Analyst
The University of Texas at Dallas
http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Chad Perrin
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 07:43:12PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 
 I'm not going to reply to your personal attack

The fact that you took anything Giorgios said as a personal attack may
provide a hint as to why you think the comment on the indicated page of
the freebsd.org site is offensive.

-- 
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Kent Beck: I always knew that one day Smalltalk would replace Java.  I
just didn't know it would be called Ruby.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Chad Perrin
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 07:48:35PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 Erik,
 
 This is a very wise thing that you just said, and I agree with you almost 
 completely.  The difference is that your very own words are a brilliant way 
 to say it, and would be wonderful to replace the Hitler quotes that is 
 there now.  So, if someone would replace it with your quote, I would be 
 completely satisfied:
 
 the speaker of the quote is not to be the
 basis for categorizing the quote as offensive.

Considering the very specific tendency of some people to find any mention
of Hitler offensive, I'd say the text should be modified in a manner
similar to this:

  A quote whose source you find offensive.  This includes, but is not
  limited to, Hitler quotes.

. . . or we could just leave it as is, with a footnote explaining the
meaning behind the mention of Hitler quotes.  Either way, I rather
suspect that entirely failing to mention Hitler quotes specifically
will result in greater incidence of people complaining that Hitler quotes
should be removed.

-- 
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Anonymous: Eat your crow early, while it's young and tender.  Don't wait
until it's old and tough.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Chad Perrin
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 05:51:13PM +0100, Dominic Fandrey wrote:
 eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
  2) That's the thing, banning hitlers name is not at all what i'm trying
  to do.  I think we should keep his quotes in the database of quotes, if
  that's what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting is
  that we remove his name from the website:
  (http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html) because it seems to
  innapropriately focus the attention away from the program (Fortune) and
  unecessarily makes the FreeBSD community seem like a bunch of
  insensitive jerks because we seemingly condone hitlers sayings.
  ...
 
 Quote from the linked website:
  If an entry offends more than a couple of FreeBSD committers and does not
  contain any objective poignant historical reference, the entry should be in
  the offensive file.
 
 I'm not a freebsd committer, but I do feel offended by Hitler quotes (being
 German that is understandable, I think). And it's unthinkable for me to put
 anything he said anywhere else but into offensive.
 Just by being his words a quote is put into an offensive (and not amusing)
 context.

I'm offended by Germany's tendency to jail people for talking about
Hitler, too -- but I don't let that convince me to killfile everything
said by Germans on this list.  Just as not all things Hitler said should
necessarily be wiped from memory (in fact, I believe they should be
carefully saved and studied to help us understand where the world went
wrong in allowing his crimes to be committed), not all statements by
people who want to censor Hitler's words (or even those that happen to be
nationally associated with such people) should be censored either.

-- 
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Thomas McCauley: The measure of a man's real character is what he would do
if he knew he would never be found out.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Chad Perrin
On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:05:05AM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 
 1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an 
 appropriate forum to express political views.  so whether we are for or 
 against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really does not 
 matter.  what matters is how good our coding is, and how appropriate the 
 wording on our website.  because like it or not, we have to present a 
 decent website that does not offend our users and does not make us look bad 
 in front of non-users.

I find that ironic, considering any attempt to pretend Hitler didn't
exist is, in itself, a political statement.  The statement that Hitler
quotes are not to be relegated to the offensive file just because
Hitler said them is about as anti-political a statement as one can make.
It basically means I don't care about your political sensibilities.
Quotes will be judged based on whether they're interesting, not whether
you have some kind of political problem with them.  It's more succinct,
though, and makes the very clear point that people should stop trying to
get Hitler quotes moved into offensive.


 
 grandmother also has some interesting things to say but you don't put her 
 name on the front page of the Fortune program because it's not appropriate. 
 Same thing here.  Just not an appropriate forum.

What Hitler said wasn't placed on the FreeBSD fortune page, either.  Your
analogy is broken.

-- 
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Larry Wall: A script is what you give the actors.  A program is what you
give the audience.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 08:12:36PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:




1) first of all, i don't think that freebsd operating system is an 
appropriate forum to express political views.  so whether we are for or 
against censorship or democracy or fascism or communism, it really does 
not matter.  what matters is how good our coding is, and how appropriate 
the wording on our website.  because like it or not, we have to present 
a decent website that does not offend our users and does not make us 
look bad in front of non-users.


this reasoning was one of the main excuses of Germans after the war was 
lost. 'I only did my job'.


that's what the community thinks is appropriate.  What I'm suggesting is 
that we remove his name from the website: 


Is there a shorter way to express the same thing?

freedoms.  All they will see is that we seemingly support Hitler.  Why 
don't we have other names controversial during our times like Mussolini, 
Stalin, or even Gorge Bush?


Because they are just lousy copy cats. But one has at least a serious 
chance to make it up to become the new leader of the pack.



One thing is for sure, Adolf Schicklgruber still keep people busy.

Erich
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread icantthinkofone
Oh, who the heck cares.  The guy is dead and he's not going to hurt you 
so get a life people.  If you ban Hitler then ban Stalin and Mussolini 
and let's go back another thousand years and dig up those graves, too.  
Move on!

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RE: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Ted Mittelstaedt


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of DAve
 Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:30 AM
 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
 Subject: Re: who wrote this
 
 
 
 -- 
 I've been asking Google for a Veteran's Day logo since 2000,
 maybe 1999. I was told they finally did a Veteran's Day logo,
 but none of the links I was given return anything but a
 normal Google logo.
 

Dave, when the Google webmaster does get around to updating the
logo, the Veteran's Day logo will appear on this page with
the rest of them:

http://www.google.com/intl/en/holidaylogos.html

And, I did in fact see a Veterans day logo used this year.  If
you must continue to beat this horse, you need to start asking
them to update the above URL.

 Sad, very sad. Maybe the Chinese Government didn't like it?
 

I don't see why - they got their logo in 2005.

Ted
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RE: who wrote this

2007-11-26 Thread Ted Mittelstaedt


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jerry
 McAllister
 Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:26 AM
 To: eBoundHost: Artur
 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
 Subject: Re: who wrote this


 On Mon, Nov 26, 2007 at 10:58:08AM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

  On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 03:23:56PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

 
  No Jerry, you misunderstood my point.  I'm not talking about
 which quotes
  go into which list.  My complaint is about how that web page is
 structured,
  and that its wording should be reworked.

 No, I didn't misunderstand it.   You don't like the way they are
 describing
 which goes in to which list.   The current wording is saying that it does
 not specifically belong on the offensive list just because it come from
 an offensive person.   I, not too tongue-in-cheek suggested some other
 examples who might be used in place of the 'hitler' name that could
 categorize something coming from an offensive source but not necessarily
 belong in the offensive list merely because of the source.

 Actually, I think the original page wording is a little skimpy about
 the concept, but the example[s] given do very well at illustrating the
 intended meaning.  eg, by just saying that hitler quotes are examples
 of entries that are not offensive, it leaves to ones ability to
 misunderstand or misinterpret, the reasoning behind hitler quotes not
 being offensive entries.One really has to look at the other category
 to see that it does not fit in the, somewhat better described, offensive
 list category to pick up the reasoning for it being in the non-offensive
 list, eg, it ain't one of those so it must be one of these.

 So, I haven't yet thought of a good, adequately lean, but
 clarifying phrase,
 though if one comes to me I will submit it, but a clarifying phrase could
 well be included and the hitler example remain with it because it
 establishes
 a very strong case-in-point example.


The phrase Hitler quotes is also important because it establishes
that Godwin's Law applies here to the quote file.  In short, if
a particular fortune or quote is so objectionable to someone that they
feel they must make a comparison to Hitler, then automatically they
are wrong and the quote is considered by everyone else to NOT be
objectionable.  Godwin's Law works because Hitler is, essentially,
the equivalent of the Christian Judas, of the modern world.

The reality of it is that because Hitler and Nazism was so incredibly
horrible, it is a societal absolute that we must never forget the
Holocaust nor ever allow our descendents to forget it.  Hitler made
some incredible statements in his day - things that are so unbelievable
that no sane person could imagine someone making them - and so
repeating some of the most insane of those quotes is actually
societies way of remembering the Holocaust.

For example, a famous quote of Hitler's is:

I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature.

Hitler actually believed this, and when people see it and read it,
the quote illustrates how much of an incredible monster that Hitler
really was far better than reams of text.  Thus, inclusion of it
in the fortune database is a public service - because it reminds
us once more when we read it of how warped and degenerate that
governments can really become.

Unfortunately, there are people like the original poster who,
just as Godwin's law shows - are so blind and knee-jerking that
they would close their eyes and refuse to read such a quote nor
understand it's true meaning - simply because they knew that
Hitler said it.  It is because of this reason, that the reference
to Hitler on that webpage was made.

Fundamentally, you have to be educated to understand it.  FreeBSD
is first and formost, for the educated computer user.

Ted

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RE: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Tony
I see that as an example of something that might be offensive on the
surface but we might not want to outlaw just as a matter of course.


For instance if someone submitted this for the fortune rotation:

Germany will either be a world power or will not be at all. 
Adolf Hitler

Or

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future. 
Adolf Hitler

Or

How fortunate for leaders that men do not think. 
Adolf Hitler

I might consider the man to be a maniac but he did utter some truths,
Should we automatically disqualify them?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of eBoundHost:
Artur
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 4:24 PM
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: who wrote this 

All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
==
 Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
 * Hitler quotes.
==
Ok I understand that some moron wrote it, but why has nobody removed
this 
garbage?

Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com 

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

 I might consider the man to be a maniac but he did utter some truths,
 Should we automatically disqualify them?

Even the devil is right sometimes does that mean we should follow him?

Let's see:

1 authbaun = 6 million jews
1 trip to the moon = 50 million russians
1 vw bug = 20 million brits and americans
1 war = priceless
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHSfUlJ9+1V27SttsRAkMJAJ9XsKT7BcgiLjXgdjg24So6P0S5qACgoHWG
zq116oPgBb72nbumjnCpJiY=
=dGDp
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Giorgos Keramidas
On 2007-11-25 15:23, eBoundHost: Artur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 ==
 Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
 * Hitler quotes.
 ==
 Ok I understand that some moron wrote it, but why has nobody removed
 this garbage?

There have been long and vicious discussions about this particular
issue, on several mailing lists.  Please refer to the archives, because
repeating the whole shebang is not really a productive use of everyone's
time.

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

T,

I don't know any soft way to say this.  The man, Hitler, was the most evil 
person that our generation has ever witnessed.  The things he did and what 
was done on his behalf are unspeakable and give him a special place in 
whatever hell you believe in.   As a society, we should distance ourselves 
and shun any imagery that puts any kind of human side to this monster. 
Saying that he loved dogs and was an art afficionado is completely 
irrelevant if you know anything about his actions.


There are far more worthy quotes that can be put into FreeBSD and I don't 
think its debateable.


What really gets me is the fact that this is one of the examples put on the 
FreeBSD page.  I'm all for freedom and libertarian ideals, but for petes' 
sake, have some compassion and understand where your liberty crosses over 
into the pain of someone else's family.  Why didn't they put on that page 
along with quotes about hitler, jokes about cancer and funny rape 
stories.


I don't want to outlaw anything, but have some good taste.  Learn to 
moderate yourselves, this is what freedom is all based on, being good to 
others.


I would appreciate if someone would help me find the person who can help to 
modify the text on this page.

http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
I think it can be worded differently and get the point accross without 
giving any extra attention to this monster.


Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com
- Original Message - 
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 4:11 PM

Subject: RE: who wrote this



I see that as an example of something that might be offensive on the
surface but we might not want to outlaw just as a matter of course.


For instance if someone submitted this for the fortune rotation:
x
Or
x
Or
x

I might consider the man to be a maniac but he did utter some truths,
Should we automatically disqualify them?



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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread eBoundHost: Artur
yea that's a great answer.  thanks for your insight.  this is not some 
technical question that can be researched, this in fact tarnishes the image 
of the freebsd community, so it's not such an easy go rtfm type of deal.


problem is that i just came accross it myself and obviously nothing has been 
done about it in the past.  so i would like to ask of people, is there no 
better way to get the point accross?  do you have to have this wording?  is 
it set in stone and can't be changed?  I insist strongly that we should 
rework this example, and if anyone insists strongly on not doing it, I would 
like to understand what motive can be possibly behind this other than 
something very deeply evil.


Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com
- Original Message - 
From: Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: eBoundHost: Artur [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: who wrote this



On 2007-11-25 15:23, eBoundHost: Artur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All I have to say is WTF is wrong with whomever wrote this page.
http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
==

Examples of entries that should not usually be declared 'offensive':
* Hitler quotes.

==
Ok I understand that some moron wrote it, but why has nobody removed
this garbage?


There have been long and vicious discussions about this particular
issue, on several mailing lists.  Please refer to the archives, because
repeating the whole shebang is not really a productive use of everyone's
time.




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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Paul Schmehl
--On November 25, 2007 5:59:53 PM -0600 eBoundHost: Artur 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



yea that's a great answer.  thanks for your insight.  this is not some
technical question that can be researched, this in fact tarnishes the
image of the freebsd community, so it's not such an easy go rtfm type
of deal.

problem is that i just came accross it myself and obviously nothing has
been done about it in the past.  so i would like to ask of people, is
there no better way to get the point accross?  do you have to have this
wording?  is it set in stone and can't be changed?  I insist strongly
that we should rework this example, and if anyone insists strongly on
not doing it, I would like to understand what motive can be possibly
behind this other than something very deeply evil.

I'll take up the challenge.  Hitler was evil.  Quoting Hitler is not. 
When we seek to suppress information, no matter how troubling, we obscure 
the very lessons of history we need most to learn.  If, because Hitler was 
evil, we do not allow discussion of him, how will future generations learn 
of his evil?  As we argue this very point, there are people in the world 
insisting that the holocaust never happened, that Hitler did not commit 
the evil deeds that history has recorded he *did* commit.  If we refuse to 
speak of him, those who insist he wasn't evil will win the argument by 
default.


Surely that is not what you desire?

Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Senior Information Security Analyst
The University of Texas at Dallas
http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Giorgos Keramidas
On 2007-11-25 17:59, eBoundHost: Artur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 yea that's a great answer.  thanks for your insight.  this is not some
 technical question that can be researched, this in fact tarnishes the
 image of the freebsd community, so it's not such an easy go rtfm
 type of deal.

The commit logs of the entire FreeBSD source tree are openly visible to
everyone.  A couple of minutes with Google Groups would be enough to
locate this thread:

  
http://groups.google.com/group/fa.freebsd.cvs-all/browse_thread/thread/ee66a0ebc1457b1f/7ea396d642a58806

This is the sort of research that I wanted to point you at.

 problem is that i just came accross it myself and obviously nothing
 has been done about it in the past.

The fact that you didn't notice the old commit logs, does not mean that
``nothing has been done about this issue in the past''.  Please stop
spreading FUD about FreeBSD, because implying that we don't care as a
team about these things suggests to readers of freebsd-questions things
which are untrue.

There are intriguing but nevertheless interesting observations in the
thread mentioned above.  Please take the time to let some of them sink
in before you spread more FUD.

 so i would like to ask of people, is there no better way to get the
 point accross?  do you have to have this wording?  is it set in stone
 and can't be changed?  I insist strongly that we should rework this
 example, and if anyone insists strongly on not doing it, I would like
 to understand what motive can be possibly behind this other than
 something very deeply evil.

If you are not bothered by the fact that the fortune cookie database
contains Hitler quotes, but you merely want to ammend the text of the
web site, then you are more than welcome to post patches to the
freebsd-www list.  That's where most of the work on the website is
discussed, and reviewed.

- Giorgos

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Jeff Mohler
I'll take up the challenge.  Hitler was evil.  Quoting Hitler is not.

 When we seek to suppress information, no matter how troubling, we obscure
 the very lessons of history we need most to learn.  If, because Hitler was
 evil, we do not allow discussion of him, how will future generations learn
 of his evil?  As we argue this very point, there are people in the world
 insisting that the holocaust never happened, that Hitler did not commit
 the evil deeds that history has recorded he *did* commit.  If we refuse to
 speak of him, those who insist he wasn't evil will win the argument by
 default.

---
I believe that myself..evil people can still be brilliant, and can in
retrospect, teach us a lot about ourselves as a human race.

Were all animals, capable of horrible or fantastic things.  What we do with
that knowledge and power is the real problem.


What genre of quoteable will we be debating next?  MANY people worldwide
hate/despise many things.  If we begin here, where does it end?

Will we be discussing a kernel level hitler filter next?


C'mon, I believe that most reasonable people can separate the actions of
someone from their words from a historically relevant point of view.
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Erik Osterholm
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 05:53:54PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:
 I would appreciate if someone would help me find the person who can
 help to
 modify the text on this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 I think it can be worded differently and get the point accross
 without
 giving any extra attention to this monster.

 Best Regards,

 Artur

Do I understand correctly that you are not concerned so much with the
inclusion of quotes by Adolf Hitler, but you don't like the way the
web page is presented?

If that's the case, my argument for maintaining the current state of
the webpage is that it's going to become a repeated issue.  Without
the notice that Hitler quotes are not automatically considered
offensive, a lot of people will probably see a non-offensive Hitler
quote and argue that it should be moved to the offensive file simply
due to the attribution.

Put another way, the quote What luck for the rulers that men do not
think. is not considered offensive.  Merely adding the attribution,
then, should not cause it to be moved to the offensive file.  That
said, people have argued in the past that it should be, simply because
Hitler is in the text.  Putting the notice on the webpage at
http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html is a public expression
that the speaker of the quote is not to be the basis for categorizing
the quote as offensive.

Erik

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

T,

I don't know any soft way to say this.  The man, Hitler, was the most 
evil person that our generation has ever witnessed.  The things he did 


this is why he has to be quoted so people see from where certain ideas 
originate.


I live in a country where many things are - knowingly or unknowingly - 
copied from this guy.


What really gets me is the fact that this is one of the examples put on 
the FreeBSD page.  I'm all for freedom and libertarian ideals, but for 


You can promote freedom only if you are able to describe the opposite.

I don't want to outlaw anything, but have some good taste.  Learn to 
moderate yourselves, this is what freedom is all based on, being good 
to others.


You must make people aware. If people are not aware - this was the most 
common excuse of Germans after the war - they will never ever support 
any actions against something.


I would appreciate if someone would help me find the person who can help 
to modify the text on this page.


I hope, you will not find this person.

Just for your information. Parts of my family were active against Hitler 
until the collapse of the Third Reich.


I think, that you are not able to understand the possible unawareness if 
you have not experienced it just after 1945. A very high percentage of 
Germans simply could not imagine or did not believe what was going on 
around them.


Surpressing even quotes like them here, is the first step to make people 
feel as they live in a perfect world.


Erich
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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Frank Shute
On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 05:53:54PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

 T,
 
 I don't know any soft way to say this.  The man, Hitler, was the most evil 
 person that our generation has ever witnessed. 

He wasn't witnessed by our generation  IMHO Stalin was worse.

 The things he did and what was done on his behalf are unspeakable
 and give him a special place in whatever hell you believe in.

I don't believe in hell - any sort of hell.

 As a society, we should distance ourselves and shun any imagery that
 puts any kind of human side to this monster.  

Why should we stop putting any human side to him? He was clearly a
human being.

 Saying that he loved dogs and was an art afficionado is completely 
 irrelevant if you know anything about his actions.

Because it shows him to be a human being?

 
 There are far more worthy quotes that can be put into FreeBSD and I don't 
 think its debateable.

You don't think it's debatable, but I do.

 
 What really gets me is the fact that this is one of the examples put on the 
 FreeBSD page.  I'm all for freedom and libertarian ideals, but for petes' 
 sake, have some compassion and understand where your liberty crosses over 
 into the pain of someone else's family.  Why didn't they put on that page 
 along with quotes about hitler, jokes about cancer and funny rape 
 stories.

Good idea! Anybody got any good cancer or rape gags we can put in
fortune?

 
 I don't want to outlaw anything, but have some good taste.  

You *do* want to outlaw things on the grounds of taste.

 Learn to 
 moderate yourselves, this is what freedom is all based on, being good to 
 others.

Nonsense. Freedom is about the right to voice disagreement with
others amongst other things.

 
 I would appreciate if someone would help me find the person who can help to 
 modify the text on this page.
 http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
 I think it can be worded differently and get the point accross without 
 giving any extra attention to this monster.

It's a good example and shouldn't be changed IMO.

PS. What should be abolished on the grounds of decency is top posting
 rehashing topics that have been gone on about ad nauseum,  on the
wrong mailing list.

-- 

 Frank 


 Contact info: http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/misc/contact.html 

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

If you are not bothered by the fact that the fortune cookie database
contains Hitler quotes, but you merely want to ammend the text of the
web site, then you are more than welcome to post patches to the
freebsd-www list.  That's where most of the work on the website is
discussed, and reviewed.

- Giorgos


I'm not going to reply to your personal attack but will only say that you 
are definitely much smarter, more web savy and better looking than me.


As far as the rest of your comment, yes, I am only interested in removing 
the reference to hitler from the front page of that topic that's all.  And 
unfortunately I do not know how to post patches to the freebsd-www list so 
if you would be so kind as to send me an email with a pointer, I would 
sincerely appreciate it.


Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com 


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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

Erik,

This is a very wise thing that you just said, and I agree with you almost 
completely.  The difference is that your very own words are a brilliant way 
to say it, and would be wonderful to replace the Hitler quotes that is 
there now.  So, if someone would replace it with your quote, I would be 
completely satisfied:



the speaker of the quote is not to be the
basis for categorizing the quote as offensive.


In fact, I do not think that the quotes should be removed from the database 
itself, my only objection is that by having hitler quotes on the front 
page, we are virtually monopolizing the page to this topic.


Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com
- Original Message - 
From: Erik Osterholm [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: eBoundHost: Artur [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: who wrote this



On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 05:53:54PM -0600, eBoundHost: Artur wrote:

I would appreciate if someone would help me find the person who can
help to
modify the text on this page.
http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html
I think it can be worded differently and get the point accross
without
giving any extra attention to this monster.

Best Regards,

Artur


Do I understand correctly that you are not concerned so much with the
inclusion of quotes by Adolf Hitler, but you don't like the way the
web page is presented?

If that's the case, my argument for maintaining the current state of
the webpage is that it's going to become a repeated issue.  Without
the notice that Hitler quotes are not automatically considered
offensive, a lot of people will probably see a non-offensive Hitler
quote and argue that it should be moved to the offensive file simply
due to the attribution.

Put another way, the quote What luck for the rulers that men do not
think. is not considered offensive.  Merely adding the attribution,
then, should not cause it to be moved to the offensive file.  That
said, people have argued in the past that it should be, simply because
Hitler is in the text.  Putting the notice on the webpage at
http://www.freebsd.org/internal/fortunes.html is a public expression
that the speaker of the quote is not to be the basis for categorizing
the quote as offensive.

Erik




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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread Giorgos Keramidas
On 2007-11-25 19:43, eBoundHost: Artur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you are not bothered by the fact that the fortune cookie database
 contains Hitler quotes, but you merely want to ammend the text of the
 web site, then you are more than welcome to post patches to the
 freebsd-www list.  That's where most of the work on the website is
 discussed, and reviewed

 I'm not going to reply to your personal attack but will only say that you
 are definitely much smarter, more web savy and better looking than me.

It's not an ``attack'', but merely a request to avoid what may be
considered as a ``fault'' of the FreeBSD Project.

 As far as the rest of your comment, yes, I am only interested in
 removing the reference to hitler from the front page of that topic
 that's all.  And unfortunately I do not know how to post patches to
 the freebsd-www list so if you would be so kind as to send me an email
 with a pointer, I would sincerely appreciate it.

You don't have to spend a lot of time working with HTML, SGML or the CVS
tree.  A mere proposal for a text that improves what you consider buggy
in the web page, should be fine.  We can do the rest.

- Giorgos

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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread eBoundHost: Artur



I'm not going to reply to your personal attack but will only say that you
are definitely much smarter, more web savy and better looking than me.


It's not an ``attack'', but merely a request to avoid what may be
considered as a ``fault'' of the FreeBSD Project.


As far as the rest of your comment, yes, I am only interested in
removing the reference to hitler from the front page of that topic
that's all.  And unfortunately I do not know how to post patches to
the freebsd-www list so if you would be so kind as to send me an email
with a pointer, I would sincerely appreciate it.


You don't have to spend a lot of time working with HTML, SGML or the CVS
tree.  A mere proposal for a text that improves what you consider buggy
in the web page, should be fine.  We can do the rest.

- Giorgos


Ok, thank you, I will submit the proposed changes.  I appreciate your reply. 


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Re: who wrote this

2007-11-25 Thread eBoundHost: Artur

PS. What should be abolished on the grounds of decency is top posting
 rehashing topics that have been gone on about ad nauseum,  on the
wrong mailing list.


My apologies for top posting, will never happen again.  I've never posted to 
a list before.



Learn to
moderate yourselves, this is what freedom is all based on, being good 
to

others.


Nonsense. Freedom is about the right to voice disagreement with
others amongst other things.


Do you even notice the irony in what you said?

Best Regards,

Artur
eBoundHost.com
http://www.eboundhost.com

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