Re: About file systems and formats

2007-03-29 Thread Chuck Swiger

On Mar 29, 2007, at 1:25 PM, Andrew Falanga wrote:
Both drives are similar in capability.  They are both 7200 rpm  
drives, etc.

So what is so much different about NTFS from FFS?


All sorts of things.  :-)


Are the file systems
really that different that MS's system is simply dog slow, or is  
the format
for FreeBSD skipping some integrity checks on the surface of the  
drive or
whatever (this assumes that the MS install process is actually  
doing this).


The Windows format is probably doing a bad sector scan and testing  
each and every sector during the format.  The Unix newfs/mkfs doesn't  
perform bad-sector checking, but you can invoke things like the  
smartmon utilities to perform disk checking later on.


Please understand, I intend only to find the answer to the question  
with
this.  I'm looking for starting a war about who's file system  
rocks more
than the other.  The idea of an integrity check was just  
speculation between

my colleague and I because there such a speed difference in formatting
things (once windows is installed) when choosing between a Quick  
Format or

a Full Format.


A quick format is the Windows equivalent of what newfs does, yes.

P.S. on a side note, but related to this, in what directories under  
the
system sources will I find the source code for the FFS used by  
FreeBSD, and

how are those modules structured?


See:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/ufs/ufs/

...versus other filesystems found here:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/fs/

--
-Chuck

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Re: About file systems and formats

2007-03-29 Thread Ivan Voras
Andrew Falanga wrote:
 Yesterday while working on a problem at work, a colleague and I were
 talking
 about the various file systems and something that I have always wondered on
 is what are the various file systems doing when a format is being done. 
 For
 example, at home, my PC has 2 80gb drives.  One for Windows and the other
 for FreeBSD.  It took Windows nearly an hour (give or take) to format the
 80gb drive.  On the other hand, it took FreeBSD little more than 3 - 5
 minutes to format its 80gb drive.

This is too slow for the FreeBSD case. By default, Windows will do a
full format - in effect, will write zeroes all over the drive, with the
intent of checking if the drive is capable of it. Unix format (newfs)
will only initialize file system structures - in effect, will write out
(initially empty) file tables to the drive. This takes about 5-10
seconds on 250 GB drives, so 3-5 minutes you got is way too much.
There's no way of making newfs to the checking phase; there are
separate utilities for that.

 my colleague and I because there such a speed difference in formatting
 things (once windows is installed) when choosing between a Quick
 Format or
 a Full Format.

Yes, Quick format will just write the file tables (this is simplified,
but you'll get the picture) on Windows, too.



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Re: About file systems and formats

2007-03-29 Thread Andrew Falanga

On 3/29/07, Ivan Voras [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Andrew Falanga wrote:
 Yesterday while working on a problem at work, a colleague and I were
 talking
 about the various file systems and something that I have always wondered
on
 is what are the various file systems doing when a format is being done.
 For
 example, at home, my PC has 2 80gb drives.  One for Windows and the
other
 for FreeBSD.  It took Windows nearly an hour (give or take) to format
the
 80gb drive.  On the other hand, it took FreeBSD little more than 3 - 5
 minutes to format its 80gb drive.

This is too slow for the FreeBSD case. By default, Windows will do a
full format - in effect, will write zeroes all over the drive, with the
intent of checking if the drive is capable of it. Unix format (newfs)
will only initialize file system structures - in effect, will write out
(initially empty) file tables to the drive. This takes about 5-10
seconds on 250 GB drives, so 3-5 minutes you got is way too much.
There's no way of making newfs to the checking phase; there are
separate utilities for that.



Wow, I guess so!  I did this some time ago and was trying to be conservative
in my time table as I actually couldn't remember the exact time.



my colleague and I because there such a speed difference in formatting
 things (once windows is installed) when choosing between a Quick
 Format or
 a Full Format.

Yes, Quick format will just write the file tables (this is simplified,
but you'll get the picture) on Windows, too.




Sounds like we were on track.  The system just creates the appropriate data
structures using newfs and one can use the smartmon Chuck mentioned to keep
track of the surface, i.e. looking for disk defects.

Thanks for the links to the source (Chuck).

Andy
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Re: About file systems and formats

2007-03-29 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 02:25:57PM -0600, Andrew Falanga wrote:

 Yesterday while working on a problem at work, a colleague and I were talking
 about the various file systems and something that I have always wondered on
 is what are the various file systems doing when a format is being done.  For
 example, at home, my PC has 2 80gb drives.  One for Windows and the other
 for FreeBSD.  It took Windows nearly an hour (give or take) to format the
 80gb drive.  On the other hand, it took FreeBSD little more than 3 - 5
 minutes to format its 80gb drive.

 
 Both drives are similar in capability.  They are both 7200 rpm drives, etc.
 So what is so much different about NTFS from FFS?  Are the file systems
 really that different that MS's system is simply dog slow, or is the format
 for FreeBSD skipping some integrity checks on the surface of the drive or
 whatever (this assumes that the MS install process is actually doing this).
 Please understand, I intend only to find the answer to the question with
 this.  I'm looking for starting a war about who's file system rocks more
 than the other.  The idea of an integrity check was just speculation between
 my colleague and I because there such a speed difference in formatting
 things (once windows is installed) when choosing between a Quick Format or
 a Full Format.

Unix systems such as FreeBSD do not usually do an actual 'format' in the
way we used to think of Format.   When you do a newfs on a FreeBSD partition
it is creating a filesystem by writing file system tables and copies of
those tables in specific places across the partition.   It makes use of
the low level format that is already put there by the manufacturer.
I don't really know how much of that MS does when it builds an NTFS
file system.

jerry

 
 Can someone here offer some in depth information on this for me?  Thanks.
 
 Andy
 
 P.S. on a side note, but related to this, in what directories under the
 system sources will I find the source code for the FFS used by FreeBSD, and
 how are those modules structured?
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