Re: Not an easy install
On Saturday 25 March 2006 16:26, Kevin Kinsey wrote: Installer, yes. good system for installing programs ... some would differ. Ease of use isn't the only thing that FreeBSD ports offers, and I'm not sure that PCBSD has that figured out; obviously, that's open for discussion. Seems to me, and some others, that PCBSD's implementation of 3rd party software may get its users in the same sort of libc hell that many Linux users find themselves in someplace down the road. I tried PC-BSD a couple of weeks ago. What they seem to do is include all the necessary libs with a program, and install each program into a dedicated library. So while there is bloat, a library hell there shouldn't be. Cheers Benjamin pgptKaoLS1aOB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Not an easy install
Benjamin Lutz wrote: On Saturday 25 March 2006 16:26, Kevin Kinsey wrote: Installer, yes. good system for installing programs ... some would differ. Ease of use isn't the only thing that FreeBSD ports offers, and I'm not sure that PCBSD has that figured out; obviously, that's open for discussion. Seems to me, and some others, that PCBSD's implementation of 3rd party software may get its users in the same sort of libc hell that many Linux users find themselves in someplace down the road. I tried PC-BSD a couple of weeks ago. What they seem to do is include all the necessary libs with a program, and install each program into a dedicated library. So while there is bloat, a library hell there shouldn't be. Cheers Benjamin I appreciate that comment; do we dare discuss it further? (And, it will take a more knowledgeable guru than me to do so, probably). What happens if there is an API/ABI change of the type that occurs once in a FBSD full moon ... 'please recompile all ports', or at least, 'all ports dependent on /usr/ports/foo/bar'? I suppose from an end-user standpoint, it's no worse than taking your (MSFT) computer to the shop and them flattening it, and you have to reinstall and restore a backup. But from my perspective, (and I've got to admit not giving it a whole lot of thought just yet) this could be off-putting to users, to say the least, and how will PCBSD handle this (reinstallation requirement). In leaving the traditional FBSD system, what's taking its place for upgrading/ updating, etc.? If you've got a good case, you might want to take it over to ##freebsd at freenode --- seems PCBSD gets badmouthed a little over there at times. And, I'm in danger of going way OT; if we need to continue, we should probably go chat@ KDK -- If I'm over the hill, why is it I don't recall ever being on top? -- Jerry Muscha ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens It won't happen. The standard answer you will get here is we don't care about fancy installers, as long as it's working great or if you want it, do it yourself. But I suggest that you take a look at pc-bsd (http://www.pcbsd.org/). It is bsd with a nice and easy installer and a good system for installing programs. Hope this helps, Beni. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens 1. Troll, I command thee, begone! :-D 2. FreeBSD *is* user-friendly; it's just picky about who those friends are (might read that as newbs are expected to RTF*M like the rest of us) ;-) Seriously, Tim, this is an issue that's *not* going to be resolved any time soon. There are plenty of reasons why, and some of them are good (not to mention, in the words of the immortal JKH, 'libncurses makes the baby Jesus cry') and some aren't. If you want FreeBSD with a GUI installer and KDE (I don't, necessarily), head on over to www.desktopbsd.org. Some of us are O.K. with our stone knives and bearskins, as long as they work. As for you, install what you want. That's what free, as in FreeBSD, is really about. My $0.02, and I'm out of change on this one Kevin Kinsey *Friendly! Read the **friendly** manual!! P.S. Oh, golly; I forgot the part about become a committer and fix it yourself. But, that's really not necessary, I don't think P.P.S. Anyone got a procmail recipe for sysinstall flames? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens It won't happen. The standard answer you will get here is we don't care about fancy installers, as long as it's working great or if you want it, do it yourself. But I suggest that you take a look at pc-bsd (http://www.pcbsd.org/). It is bsd with a nice and easy installer and a good system for installing programs. Installer, yes. good system for installing programs ... some would differ. Ease of use isn't the only thing that FreeBSD ports offers, and I'm not sure that PCBSD has that figured out; obviously, that's open for discussion. Seems to me, and some others, that PCBSD's implementation of 3rd party software may get its users in the same sort of libc hell that many Linux users find themselves in someplace down the road. And, incidentally, Tim, judging an OS by its installer is about as useful as judging women by their appearance. There's more to it than that. ;-) KDK -- If your aim in life is nothing; you can't miss. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
On 3/25/06, Kevin Kinsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens 1. Troll, I command thee, begone! :-D 2. FreeBSD *is* user-friendly; it's just picky about who those friends are (might read that as newbs are expected to RTF*M like the rest of us) ;-) Seriously, Tim, this is an issue that's *not* going to be resolved any time soon. There are plenty of reasons why, and some of them are good (not to mention, in the words of the immortal JKH, 'libncurses makes the baby Jesus cry') and some aren't. If you want FreeBSD with a GUI installer and KDE (I don't, necessarily), head on over to www.desktopbsd.org. Some of us are O.K. with our stone knives and bearskins, as long as they work. As for you, install what you want. That's what free, as in FreeBSD, is really about. Some of us are not only ok with the stone knives and bearskins FreeBSD offers. Some of us actually would discard FreeBSD if it had a pretty GUI-installer. Some of us actually know why we need FreeBSD, and know why a gui any more friendly than ncurses would be a bad thing for FreeBSD. Some of us would actually like to be able to live without any GUI. Ever again. My $0.02, and I'm out of change on this one Kevin Kinsey *Friendly! Read the **friendly** manual!! P.S. Oh, golly; I forgot the part about become a committer and fix it yourself. But, that's really not necessary, I don't think P.P.S. Anyone got a procmail recipe for sysinstall flames? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. If you want simple installation why don't you stick to windows? This question is a faq, improving the installer is low priority. The fact is that most FreeBSD users don't really care: It works, it installs, and once you've got your system installed you'll never use it again. There is no need for an annual reinstallation as some other OS'es tend to require. So your initial effort to get started pays off, I think. Cheers, Erik -- Ph: +34.666334818 web: www.locolomo.org S/MIME Certificate: www.daemonsecurity.com/ca/8D03551FFCE04F06.crt Subject ID: 9E:AA:18:E6:94:7A:91:44:0A:E4:DD:87:73:7F:4E:82:E7:08:9C:72 Fingerprint: 5B:D5:1E:3E:47:E7:EC:1C:4C:C8:3A:19:CC:AE:14:F5:DF:18:0F:B9 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
in message [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote Kevin Kinsey thusly... Seems to me, and some others, that PCBSD's implementation of 3rd party software may get its users in the same sort of libc hell that many Linux users find themselves in someplace down the road. Do you have any pointers where above mentioned (pending) trouble for PC-BSD is discussed? - Parv -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
Kevin Kinsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, incidentally, Tim, judging an OS by its installer is about as useful as judging women by their appearance. There's more to it than that. ;-) Really? Such as? -- Bill Moran Potential Technologies http://www.potentialtech.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
On Saturday, 25 March 2006 at 9:36:04 -0500, Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Heh. As I read this, I'm trying to install Ubuntu. It's like pulling teeth. By the contrary, installing FreeBSD is *so* simple, I could do it in my sleep. OK, so when it comes to installing FreeBSD, I wrote the book (http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/). But maybe you should think that things are just different. FWIW, some very clever Linux friends of mine are also baffled by the problems I'm having. So, what's *your* problem? You haven't mentioned any details. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html See complete headers for address and phone numbers. pgpDrvN6xd2Y8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Not an easy install
Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens Hi Tim, I've been using FreeBSD for a few months now after an absence of about 10 years. Believe me when I say it's way easier now and pretty much just as easy if not easier as an initial install of say, Solaris(tm) or many Linux(tm) distros which vary widely in how easy they are to install. So anyway, hopefully you are installing the latest released version of FreeBSD intended for general use, FreeBSD 6.0. Here are the two most important things you can do! 1)Be open to learning something new and forget your expectations. There is a learning curve but it is not that bad. 2) Read the FreeBSD Handbook! I can't stress this enough. Don't try reading it from start to finish; just read the chapters on installing the system and basic setup. Personally I always enjoy reading the introduction and I probably read the installation chapter, Chapter 2, six or more times. Here is the URI for the Handbook, assuming you want the English edition. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html Now many on this list may disagree with me but I have always found that choosing the Custom instalaltion (even though it says it's for experts) has been the easiest and most likely to succeed method of installation for me. The installation chapter will help you with choosing your disk layout. My one issue is the recoomended size of some of the partitions. If you can spare the space I'd go with about 1GB for /, /tmp, and 2 GB for /var. This should let you get started without complications. They aren't the exact values recommended in the Handbook, if I recall correctly, bu they work for me. Oh yes, set your swap to 2 time your amount of RAM (I am assuming you have a modern system, more or less, with at least 256MB of RAM). After you partition and label your hard drive choose your distribution set. I recommend choosing All under distributions. As well, when prompted as to whether or not you want the Ports infrastructure, say yes. It will be worth it when (if) you really start using FreeBSD. Choose your media. CD works well and so does FTP. DHCP configuration of the network works well for me. I always use passive FTP for my installs because I am behind a firewall. If you keep and open frame of mind, ask for help on a specific issue, and provide details about your system and what you are trying to do you will receive a lot of help. No one likes being told that something they invest a lot of time in sucks by someone who does not use the system. Please remember that everyone here is a volunteer. If and when you get the base system up and running ask for help to get a GUI running and how to get different applications running and you will probably receive what you ask for. *** Always Read The Handbook First *** For what it is worth FreeBSD 6 is the only operating system on my computer. It didn't start off that way but for philosophical reasons that's the way it is now. I'd be more than happy to expound those reasons off-list to anyone who would care, but then everyone has their own reasons. These are my opinions. Your mileage may vary, use at your own risk, etc., etc. Best of luck to you. Sincerely, --Duane Whitty ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
Bill Moran wrote: Kevin Kinsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, incidentally, Tim, judging an OS by its installer is about as useful as judging women by their appearance. There's more to it than that. ;-) Really? Such as? Well, is it time to take it to chat@ ? ;) It all generalizations and speculations, but it's probably what I do best Gramma always said pretty is as pretty does. I have been blessed with a woman who's pretty pretty and very good. For 18 years, no less. So, I can't necessarily offer proof for a personal perspective, but --- Somewhere, *somewhere*, someone's crying in their $beverage over someone who grabbed 'em by the eyes, got a few $time_units down the road, and now she has his former house and a recurring portion of his livelihood and a different fellow to bed with at night. 'Nuff on that? ;-) You install FreeBSD, and you've a gal who doesn't look good on the surface at first glance, but will do most anything you ask if you treat her right and phrase the questions correctly. Not a bad deal, considering that the wedding ring costs $0.00. Aside from the time spent 'Reveling in The First (honey)Moon'. ;-) KDK -- Teachers have class. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
On Saturday 25 March 2006 06:36, Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens Who are you guys? I installed Ubuntu as my very first open source OS last Aug. Since then I've installed it on 5 computers and now FreeBSD on 2 computers. From a beginners viewpoint I find both installers pretty comparable and actually quite similar. Instead of issuing a blanket criticism that I'm not sure is even true, why don't you ask about the specific issues you are having a problem with? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Not an easy install
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006, Vayu wrote: On Saturday 25 March 2006 06:36, Tim wrote: Why couldn't you guys make a install easy instead of this and that, ok I am a newbie and it should be easy, I have installed Ubuntu, it was like a dream, smooth as silk, Fedora pretty much the same FreeBSD, its a nitemare if you have never done it, I am now reloading windows and then putting back Ubuntu, unless someone over there can make it simple even for me. Tim Stevens Hi Tim, most experienced FreeBSD users consider FreeBSD's high configurability and scalability (I hope this word is correct) its biggest advantage over alternative OS's. This - on the other hand - is its biggest disadvantage from a beginners point of view: You *have* to configure most stuff yourself, you *need* some idea what you are gong to do, beforehand. So, if you just need a ready made and working OS, you should stick with Ubuntu, Debian and friends. If you want to learn something about The Secret Life Of Your Computer (programming, administration, etc. ) stay patient with yourself and with FreeBSD and become one of us guys :-) Regards, Uli. Who are you guys? I installed Ubuntu as my very first open source OS last Aug. Since then I've installed it on 5 computers and now FreeBSD on 2 computers. From a beginners viewpoint I find both installers pretty comparable and actually quite similar. Instead of issuing a blanket criticism that I'm not sure is even true, why don't you ask about the specific issues you are having a problem with? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Peter Ulrich Kruppa - Wuppertal - Germany * * ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
