Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
Olivier Nicole wrote: Why not doing the parsing on the server? Is there a limit on the size of an HTTP GET request? Yes. Something like 4k springs to mind. That's what POST is for and would be easy in Perl, but then we can't use that :-( --Alex ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
Olivier Nicole wrote: pciconf -lv needs to be parsed, this being the hard step, into a string that can be sent via HTTP ... this is the hard part because it has to be done as/in a shell script ... anyone out there *really* good at shell programming? Why not doing the parsing on the server? Is there a limit on the size of an HTTP GET request? If not, the output of pciconf -v can fit in one single request, done. And limiting the number of requests, you also limit the amount of data xfered. I'd also go for: pciconf -l | sed s/\ /+/g | sed s/\ /%09/g| sed s/@/%40/g | sed s/:/%3a/g| sed s/=/%3d/g and you get lines like: hostb0%40pci0%3a0%3a0%3a%09class%3d0x06+card%3d0x341a8086+chip%3d0x254c8086+rev%3d0x01+hdr%3d0x00 none0%40pci0%3a0%3a1%3a%09class%3d0xff+card%3d0x341a8086+chip%3d0x25418086+rev%3d0x01+hdr%3d0x00 That are almost completely URL encoded. Remains to replace the newline into %0d, and you are done. Result is one line that is around 2000 characters. This is cool and all, but why are the concentration solely on PCI devices? pciconf output doesn't tell you directly what CPUs are in the system or even how many there are. It doesn't tell you exactly what sort of memory or disk drives the system uses -- all of which would be important information that might just persuade hardware manufacturers to provide more FreeBSD support. Surely a condensed version of /var/run/dmesg.boot is more to the point. It's not just about how many machines there are that might use a particular manufacturer's devices either, it's about how much money the users of those machines are prepared to spend. For instance, I could see that a manufacturer of, say, RAID controllers might well be more interested in providing FreeBSD support if they knew there was a pent up demand for using their models in top of the line servers rather than the same number of uses based on cheaper, small scale kit. I could take two identical motherboards stick 1GB of RAM, a single 40GB IDE drive and a low-spec single core processor in one, and in the other I could have two dual core top of the range processors, 8GB ECC RAM and a terabyte of storage using 15k rpm SAS drives. pciconf probably wouldn't distinguish between those two specifications. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Matthew Seaman wrote: This is cool and all, but why are the concentration solely on PCI devices? pciconf output doesn't tell you directly what CPUs are in the system or even how many there are. It doesn't tell you exactly what sort of memory or disk drives the system uses -- all of which would be important information that might just persuade hardware manufacturers to provide more FreeBSD support. Surely a condensed version of /var/run/dmesg.boot is more to the point. /var/run/dmesg.boot can't be relied on, unfortunately ... I've had *many* times where a reboot leaves that blank, or with non-dmesg like output ... if you can provide a non-dmesg method of adding this information that is consistent (ie. pciconf), then sure, we can add this sort of information ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On 4/08/2006 3:17 AM, User Freebsd wrote: On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Matthew Seaman wrote: This is cool and all, but why are the concentration solely on PCI devices? pciconf output doesn't tell you directly what CPUs are in the system or even how many there are. It doesn't tell you exactly what sort of memory or disk drives the system uses -- all of which would be important information that might just persuade hardware manufacturers to provide more FreeBSD support. Surely a condensed version of /var/run/dmesg.boot is more to the point. /var/run/dmesg.boot can't be relied on, unfortunately ... I've had *many* times where a reboot leaves that blank, or with non-dmesg like output ... if you can provide a non-dmesg method of adding this information that is consistent (ie. pciconf), then sure, we can add this sort of information ... Some of this information can be gathered from the hw.* sysctl's, at least on 6.x... -Antony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Antony Mawer wrote: On 4/08/2006 3:17 AM, User Freebsd wrote: On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Matthew Seaman wrote: This is cool and all, but why are the concentration solely on PCI devices? pciconf output doesn't tell you directly what CPUs are in the system or even how many there are. It doesn't tell you exactly what sort of memory or disk drives the system uses -- all of which would be important information that might just persuade hardware manufacturers to provide more FreeBSD support. Surely a condensed version of /var/run/dmesg.boot is more to the point. /var/run/dmesg.boot can't be relied on, unfortunately ... I've had *many* times where a reboot leaves that blank, or with non-dmesg like output ... if you can provide a non-dmesg method of adding this information that is consistent (ie. pciconf), then sure, we can add this sort of information ... Some of this information can be gathered from the hw.* sysctl's, at least on 6.x... 'k, what I'm going to work on this weekend is a first pass at both the periodic script, and the receiving database ... I will post the script when completed, so that we can test what has been discussed so far, then we can look at adding on 'features' from there to pull in more information ... Fair enough? Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, User Freebsd wrote: On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Antony Mawer wrote: On 4/08/2006 3:17 AM, User Freebsd wrote: On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Matthew Seaman wrote: This is cool and all, but why are the concentration solely on PCI devices? pciconf output doesn't tell you directly what CPUs are in the system or even how many there are. It doesn't tell you exactly what sort of memory or disk drives the system uses -- all of which would be important information that might just persuade hardware manufacturers to provide more FreeBSD support. Surely a condensed version of /var/run/dmesg.boot is more to the point. /var/run/dmesg.boot can't be relied on, unfortunately ... I've had *many* times where a reboot leaves that blank, or with non-dmesg like output ... if you can provide a non-dmesg method of adding this information that is consistent (ie. pciconf), then sure, we can add this sort of information ... Some of this information can be gathered from the hw.* sysctl's, at least on 6.x... 'k, what I'm going to work on this weekend is a first pass at both the periodic script, and the receiving database ... I will post the script when completed, so that we can test what has been discussed so far, then we can look at adding on 'features' from there to pull in more information ... Fair enough? BTW, if anyone out there likes doing HTML and web pages, please let me know ... anything *I* do will be as utilititarian as I can make them :) Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
pciconf -lv needs to be parsed, this being the hard step, into a string that can be sent via HTTP ... this is the hard part because it has to be done as/in a shell script ... anyone out there *really* good at shell programming? What needs to happen is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:0:2: class=0x060400 card=0x0044 chip=0x032a8086 rev=0x09 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '6700PXH PCI Express-to-PCI Express Bridge B' class= bridge subclass = PCI-PCI Needs to be converted into: device=pcibvendor=Intel+Corporationdevice=6700PXH+PCI+Express-to-PCI+Express+Bridge+Bclass=bridgesubclass=PCI-PCI So that the final query would look something like: fetch http://bsdstats.hub.org/report.php?id=`cat /tmp/getid`device=pcibvendor=Intel+Corporationdevice=6700PXH+PCI+Express-to-PCI+Express+Bridge+Bclass=bridgesubclass=PCI-PCI This will get you close. Just change the echo line... -- #!/bin/sh IFS= query_string= for line in `pciconf -lv` do echo $line | grep -qs ^[a-z] if [ $? -eq 0 ] then if [ -n $query_string ] then echo http://foo.com/bar.php?$query_string query_string= fi else query_string=$query_string`echo $line | sed -e 's/^ *//' -e 's/ *=/=/' -e 's/= */=/' -e 's/ $//'` fi done -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
Sweet, thanks ... On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Philip Hallstrom wrote: pciconf -lv needs to be parsed, this being the hard step, into a string that can be sent via HTTP ... this is the hard part because it has to be done as/in a shell script ... anyone out there *really* good at shell programming? What needs to happen is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:0:2: class=0x060400 card=0x0044 chip=0x032a8086 rev=0x09 hdr=0x01 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '6700PXH PCI Express-to-PCI Express Bridge B' class= bridge subclass = PCI-PCI Needs to be converted into: device=pcibvendor=Intel+Corporationdevice=6700PXH+PCI+Express-to-PCI+Express+Bridge+Bclass=bridgesubclass=PCI-PCI So that the final query would look something like: fetch http://bsdstats.hub.org/report.php?id=`cat /tmp/getid`device=pcibvendor=Intel+Corporationdevice=6700PXH+PCI+Express-to-PCI+Express+Bridge+Bclass=bridgesubclass=PCI-PCI This will get you close. Just change the echo line... -- #!/bin/sh IFS= query_string= for line in `pciconf -lv` do echo $line | grep -qs ^[a-z] if [ $? -eq 0 ] then if [ -n $query_string ] then echo http://foo.com/bar.php?$query_string query_string= fi else query_string=$query_string`echo $line | sed -e 's/^ *//' -e 's/ *=/=/' -e 's/= */=/' -e 's/ $//'` fi done -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
Hi Marc, On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:30:08 -0300 (ADT) you wrote: Okay, there has been alot of discussion on this in the other thread, some of it tangent'd to the original, so, I'm starting off a new thread as a sort of summary ... Great idea, but should be introduced with care... I've been doing some thinking on it this afternoon, and think I've figured out about the simpliest way of doing it ... it still doesn't deal with fakers and such, but, IMHO, I don't think that that is a *huge* problem that needs to be addressed ... some might do it for a lark, but, overall, it just sounds like something that is more worth then its worth, so over time, it should eventually balance out ... ...taking into consideration *why* do we want to do the stats. *If* we plan (and this is one of the goals of the project) to have those stats as a serious argument for a Big Business then we *must* prove that those numbers are not faked. Or even more strict: that those numbers can't (or even very, no VERY hard to) be faked. It's useless (as a serious argument) if it can be faked: imagine that a virus (warm or else) is written to fake it. [Can't comment on the rest right now, thus skipped] WBR -- Boris Samorodov (bsam) Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone Internet SP FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
--- Boris Samorodov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Marc, On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:30:08 -0300 (ADT) you wrote: Okay, there has been alot of discussion on this in the other thread, some of it tangent'd to the original, so, I'm starting off a new thread as a sort of summary ... Great idea, but should be introduced with care... I've been doing some thinking on it this afternoon, and think I've figured out about the simpliest way of doing it ... it still doesn't deal with fakers and such, but, IMHO, I don't think that that is a *huge* problem that needs to be addressed ... some might do it for a lark, but, overall, it just sounds like something that is more worth then its worth, so over time, it should eventually balance out ... ...taking into consideration *why* do we want to do the stats. *If* we plan (and this is one of the goals of the project) to have those stats as a serious argument for a Big Business then we *must* prove that those numbers are not faked. Or even more strict: that those numbers can't (or even very, no VERY hard to) be faked. It's useless (as a serious argument) if it can be faked: imagine that a virus (warm or else) is written to fake it. [Can't comment on the rest right now, thus skipped] WBR -- Boris Samorodov (bsam) Research Engineer, http://www.ipt.ru Telephone Internet SP FreeBSD committer, http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personally I don't think this stuff should be tracked in any centralized fashion. I don't particullarly like when our freedom to choose to do something is tracked or monitored; because it is no longer a freedom. Maybe that is just paranoia speaking. I think a much more productive goal is to get all the users that have unsupported hardware to write into the vendor that created it and ask them why they don't support a spawn of the OS that allowed what we call the internet to exist. Put this message on FreeBSD.org, get people in this list to do it, get on a soap box and scream it. I think giving them numbers of systems will just be ignored. But getting 1000 emails a day in multiple languages from around the world will get them thinking maybe its worth at least releasing the specs just to shut these people up. I know I would get sick of it, and would have to especially if I were a bossman. Why do I want to pay poeple to deal with the same questions every single day when they aren't asking me to necessarily program a driver for them. All they want is the specs so they can do it themselves. Code is proprietary in todays world unfortunatley, but knowing what registers and what values go into them to make a RAID card work shouldn't be. But alas maybe big brother thinks it is, I still remember getting my commodore 64 (I was in hghschool, it was already 15years old then...) and having the full schematic of how to build the thing in the instructions. What has this world come too. Lets piss off these vendors instead of driving ourselves nutz trying to collect usage data, thats what spammers are for... my too cents -brian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Boris Samorodov wrote: Hi Marc, On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:30:08 -0300 (ADT) you wrote: Okay, there has been alot of discussion on this in the other thread, some of it tangent'd to the original, so, I'm starting off a new thread as a sort of summary ... Great idea, but should be introduced with care... I've been doing some thinking on it this afternoon, and think I've figured out about the simpliest way of doing it ... it still doesn't deal with fakers and such, but, IMHO, I don't think that that is a *huge* problem that needs to be addressed ... some might do it for a lark, but, overall, it just sounds like something that is more worth then its worth, so over time, it should eventually balance out ... ...taking into consideration *why* do we want to do the stats. *If* we plan (and this is one of the goals of the project) to have those stats as a serious argument for a Big Business then we *must* prove that those numbers are not faked. Or even more strict: that those numbers can't (or even very, no VERY hard to) be faked. It's useless (as a serious argument) if it can be faked: imagine that a virus (warm or else) is written to fake it. Personally, I do not believe that there is any *safe* way of protecting against this happening ... short of having a userid/passwd schema and forcing ppl to actually register ... of course, then less ppl would participate, since it would then be too much work ... The thing is to do as much as we possible can to 'tighten it down' without making it difficult to use ... over time, if something gets added to the OS that helps improve this, we can extend teh script to check for and use such features ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On 4/08/2006 7:30 AM, User Freebsd wrote: ... STEP 2: pciconf -lv needs to be parsed, this being the hard step, into a string that can be sent via HTTP ... this is the hard part because it has to be done as/in a shell script ... anyone out there *really* good at shell programming? See my comment in the other thread -- you don't need any of the text details, all yo uneed are teh class/card/chip/rev/hdr fields. The bits before it would be helpful to identify what drivers are attached on different versions (and also to see what drivers people disable vs leave enabled for bits of their hardware). Optimally, we'd love to have everyone report pciconf information, since knowing what vendors and devices are in use would definitely add more weight then *just* what version of FreeBSD, but in order to hopefully get as much buy into this as possible, the script should be written to allow it to be disabled ... again, I can't think of why someone would feel that that was 'sensitive information', but providing the option to shut it off is definitely a must ... Agreed - if someone wants to stand up and be counted, but they feel details of their hardware choices to be a gross violation of their personal privacy, then we shouldn't put that in their way as a barrier to adoption. -Antony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I don't think this stuff should be tracked in any centralized fashion. I don't particullarly like when our freedom to choose to do something is tracked or monitored; because it is no longer a freedom. Maybe that is just paranoia speaking. none of your freedoms will be in any way infringed upon with what is proposed ... you will always have the freedom to disable the reporting and not particpate *shrug* I think a much more productive goal is to get all the users that have unsupported hardware to write into the vendor that created it and ask them why they don't support a spawn of the OS that allowed what we call the internet to exist. Put this message on FreeBSD.org, get people in this list to do it, get on a soap box and scream it. I think giving them numbers of systems will just be ignored. But getting 1000 emails a day in multiple languages from around the world will get them thinking maybe its worth at least releasing the specs just to shut these people up. The above is an active campaign, which you will generally find doesn't yield anything, unfortunately, since its more work then 99.9% of the people will feel compelled to do ... As ScottL said in one of his emails, in a form ... We don't want to piss Adaptec off, which a letter writing campaign would ... what we want to do is give Adaptec something to think about in terms of 'market missed' ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
I've been doing some thinking on it this afternoon, and think I've figured out about the simpliest way of doing it ... it still doesn't deal with fakers and such, but, IMHO, I don't think that that is a *huge* problem that needs to be addressed ... some might do it for a lark, but, overall, it just sounds like something that is more worth then its worth, so over time, it should eventually balance out ... Excellent idea, and will be one of first to register! I don't believe at first it is that important to ensure no fake entries, it is more crucial to get this project started at first then deal with the more troublesome details. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
On 4/08/2006 10:38 AM, Tamouh H. wrote: I've been doing some thinking on it this afternoon, and think I've figured out about the simpliest way of doing it ... it still doesn't deal with fakers and such, but, IMHO, I don't think that that is a *huge* problem that needs to be addressed ... some might do it for a lark, but, overall, it just sounds like something that is more worth then its worth, so over time, it should eventually balance out ... Excellent idea, and will be one of first to register! I don't believe at first it is that important to ensure no fake entries, it is more crucial to get this project started at first then deal with the more troublesome details. The best approach is probably to start out with a v1 as an experiment - get interested parties involved, start testing, evaluate your results, modify as necessary... ... once you have something that's been proven on a smaller scale, you can look to expand the scope and get more wide-spread usage. -Antony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
pciconf -lv needs to be parsed, this being the hard step, into a string that can be sent via HTTP ... this is the hard part because it has to be done as/in a shell script ... anyone out there *really* good at shell programming? Why not doing the parsing on the server? Is there a limit on the size of an HTTP GET request? If not, the output of pciconf -v can fit in one single request, done. And limiting the number of requests, you also limit the amount of data xfered. I'd also go for: pciconf -l | sed s/\ /+/g | sed s/\ /%09/g| sed s/@/%40/g | sed s/:/%3a/g| sed s/=/%3d/g and you get lines like: hostb0%40pci0%3a0%3a0%3a%09class%3d0x06+card%3d0x341a8086+chip%3d0x254c8086+rev%3d0x01+hdr%3d0x00 none0%40pci0%3a0%3a1%3a%09class%3d0xff+card%3d0x341a8086+chip%3d0x25418086+rev%3d0x01+hdr%3d0x00 That are almost completely URL encoded. Remains to replace the newline into %0d, and you are done. Result is one line that is around 2000 characters. olivier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stand up and be counted - BSDStats Project
User Freebsd wrote: On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I don't think this stuff should be tracked in any centralized fashion. I don't particullarly like when our freedom to choose to do something is tracked or monitored; because it is no longer a freedom. Maybe that is just paranoia speaking. none of your freedoms will be in any way infringed upon with what is proposed ... you will always have the freedom to disable the reporting and not particpate *shrug* I think a much more productive goal is to get all the users that have unsupported hardware to write into the vendor that created it and ask them why they don't support a spawn of the OS that allowed what we call the internet to exist. Put this message on FreeBSD.org, get people in this list to do it, get on a soap box and scream it. I think giving them numbers of systems will just be ignored. But getting 1000 emails a day in multiple languages from around the world will get them thinking maybe its worth at least releasing the specs just to shut these people up. The above is an active campaign, which you will generally find doesn't yield anything, unfortunately, since its more work then 99.9% of the people will feel compelled to do ... As ScottL said in one of his emails, in a form ... We don't want to piss Adaptec off, which a letter writing campaign would ... what we want to do is give Adaptec something to think about in terms of 'market missed' ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSN . [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.orgICQ . 7615664 sometimes I think with my head not up in the air. I see you point. I guess I'll try to give them more of a market to be concered about. If I can convince the girls next door its simple and friendly to USE, then I think anybody can be convinced, Good luck with the project, maybe I'll find myself on the list someday wish me luck with this desktopbsd thiing; I'm in short supply of it lately and it will be coming in handy... -brian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
