Re: clicky driver
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 02:11:55AM -0500, b. f. wrote: Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. Outside of X, our kbdcontrol(1) offers pitch and duration (but not volume) control for the console bell via the -b flag. The volume is often dependent upon the hardware and/or the bios, and in some cases cannot be easily changed. So, yet another man page; thanks for the datapoint. Unfortunately, our keyboard-handling code does not seem to allow the remapping of individual keys to strings -- I think that can be done in Linux -- so we can't add a bel to every keypress by defining an alternative keymap via kbdcontrol, without hacking the code (but since ed@ is working on a new console driver, this might be a good time to request features...). A BEL-per-key drove me beyond the limits back in '99; that isn't the answer, but to key a truncated bell, a click, at something well below middle-C: yes, this kind of thing is what I'm thinking of. What is ed's full email ed[at] where.org, please. If he'll give me the clues, I'll share in the hacking. It is time to get this feature builtin to the kernel. Off by default, and on at some user-tuneable values. If only 1 peraon in 10K uses it, that's fine. For me, it makes typing do-able. However, at a slightly higher level, many shells and editors will allow you to rebind keys. And some will allow you to redefine the action taken when the bell is sounded: for instance, out csh(1) has the nifty beepcmd. You could customize this to play a sound file of your own choice through your sound card, where you presumably have more control over the sound, and then try to use bindkey to issue bels with keypresses. Of course, this will only take effect while you're in that shell or editor, but you could use the idea to hack the syscons(4) driver to redefine sc_bell() if a certain sysctl is set... Well, as a last-resort kind of solution. I think it's time to get at this by hacking the driver. But since it has been so long since my last go, some/any help would be much appreciated. gary b. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On 12/27/09, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 02:11:55AM -0500, b. f. wrote: A BEL-per-key drove me beyond the limits back in '99; that isn't the answer, but to key a truncated bell, a click, at something well below middle-C: yes, this kind of thing is what I'm thinking of. Remember, you can control the pitch and duration of the bell, and this can change the character of the sound substantially. Try it and see. What is ed's full email ed[at] where.org, please. Guess: FreeB _ _.org. :) (He's cc'ed.) If he'll give me the clues, I'll share in the hacking. It is time to get this feature builtin to the kernel. Off by default, and on at some user-tuneable values. If you are talking about doing this by making the keymaps more flexible, it is easily user-configurable, though perhaps not in an on/off fashion. ed@ was writing a new console driver for other reasons, among them unicode support, and I don't know if he planned to tinker with the keyboard-handling code beyond what would be required for a interface to a different console driver, but he may be willing to help. b. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:07:34 -0800, Gary Kline wrote: On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 01:19:49AM +1100, Ian Smith wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800 Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: [..] Wow; the stuff I've never heard about:-) --I just tried spkrtest and have no /dev/speaker. # kldload speaker Thanks! I just listened to the opening few notes of Star Trek [!] But very faint and I don't know if the dinky BEL is a chip or a real speaker. Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. [..] Some laptops use the sound'card' for speaker, and provide a mixer level. Should be a way to send the beep to my desktop speakers, then, right? I've got volume and power, treble/bass. Depends entirely on whether the speaker is wired into the sound system. If so, mixer will show a speaker device, eg on my 10y.o. Armada 1500c: % mixer Mixer vol is currently set to 80:80 Mixer synthis currently set to 0:0 Mixer pcm is currently set to 92:92 Mixer speaker is currently set to 51:51 Mixer line is currently set to 0:0 Mixer mic is currently set to 0:0 Mixer cd is currently set to 0:0 Mixer line1is currently set to 0:0 Recording source: mic cheers, Ian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 07:54:02PM +1100, Ian Smith wrote: On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:07:34 -0800, Gary Kline wrote: On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 01:19:49AM +1100, Ian Smith wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800 Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: [..] Wow; the stuff I've never heard about:-) --I just tried spkrtest and have no /dev/speaker. # kldload speaker Thanks! I just listened to the opening few notes of Star Trek [!] But very faint and I don't know if the dinky BEL is a chip or a real speaker. Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. [..] Some laptops use the sound'card' for speaker, and provide a mixer level. Should be a way to send the beep to my desktop speakers, then, right? I've got volume and power, treble/bass. Depends entirely on whether the speaker is wired into the sound system. If so, mixer will show a speaker device, eg on my 10y.o. Armada 1500c: % mixer Mixer vol is currently set to 80:80 Mixer synthis currently set to 0:0 Mixer pcm is currently set to 92:92 Mixer speaker is currently set to 51:51 Mixer line is currently set to 0:0 Mixer mic is currently set to 0:0 Mixer cd is currently set to 0:0 Mixer line1is currently set to 0:0 Recording source: mic cheers, Ian interesting what you can find out by googling around and following the online docs! oN my old/present Dell I have a CS461x which is probably in the museum by now. On the new Dell, catting /dev/sndstat says there are dual chip there. cut/paste, c p6 11:50 tao [5001] cat /dev/sndstat FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm: 32bit 2007061600/i386) Installed devices: pcm0: CS461x PCM Audio at irq 17 [GIANT] p3 11:50 ethic [874] t /dev/sndstat FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm: 32bit 2007061600/i386) Installed devices: pcm0: HDA Realtek ALC888 PCM #0 Analog at cad 2 nid 1 on hdac0 kld snd_hda [MPSAFE] (1p:1v/1r:1v channels duplex default) pcm1: HDA Realtek ALC888 PCM #1 Analog at cad 2 nid 1 on hdac0 kld snd_hda [MPSAFE] (1p:1v/1r:1v channels duplex) p3 11:50 ethic [875] Well, I just spend awhile tried to connect the sound plug on my KVM unit ... I have vim built; the BEL is the same slight beep as before. I only had a few inches and a dim flashlight. Seattle is like Siberia in lots of ways. it's time to try to find somebody who can check out my wires, cables, and so forth. later on, gary -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 03:18:51AM -0500, b. f. wrote: On 12/27/09, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 02:11:55AM -0500, b. f. wrote: A BEL-per-key drove me beyond the limits back in '99; that isn't the answer, but to key a truncated bell, a click, at something well below middle-C: yes, this kind of thing is what I'm thinking of. Remember, you can control the pitch and duration of the bell, and this can change the character of the sound substantially. Try it and see. Can you give me a few suggestions, pul-eze! What is ed's full email ed[at] where.org, please. Guess: FreeB _ _.org. :) (He's cc'ed.) Sorry; it was late and my mid wa s fried. AT least that my excuse! If he'll give me the clues, I'll share in the hacking. It is time to get this feature builtin to the kernel. Off by default, and on at some user-tuneable values. If you are talking about doing this by making the keymaps more flexible, it is easily user-configurable, though perhaps not in an on/off fashion. ed@ was writing a new console driver for other reasons, among them unicode support, and I don't know if he planned to tinker with the keyboard-handling code beyond what would be required for a interface to a different console driver, but he may be willing to help. By 'console driver', do you mean a tty driver? That my my first serious driver a *long* time ago. I'm thinking of something much simpler like the keyboard driver. Not even that; rather, the speaker driver that works via the console. I'm grepping around in /usr/src/sys/dev/*. I *will* find it, or wherever the code goes. It may take awhile. b. -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
Gary Kline wrote: The short answer [Guess] is no, I dont think so. If getting the keys to have an auditory feedback with beeps or shorter clicks were that easy, it would have been done after 15 years. Even Linux lacks this--and I'd bet Minux too. Uh, it was done years ago. Look at the xset(1) manual page -- there are options there to turn on key-click. They've been there since before the millennium as I recall. Most people find key-click intensely annoying (even more so if it's on someone else's machine) so it's turned off by default. As it's an X windows thing, it should be available on any OS where you can run an X server, so any Linux or FreeBSD. Of course, you will need some sort of speaker in the machine to generate the noises, but that can be very rudimentary. If your machine can emit a beep, then it can probably do key click too. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: clicky driver
At 2009-12-26 09:36:14+, Matthew Seaman writes: Uh, it was done years ago. Look at the xset(1) manual page -- there are options there to turn on key-click. They've been there since before the millennium as I recall. Most people find key-click intensely annoying (even more so if it's on someone else's machine) so it's turned off by default. I seem to recall an irritating colleague who had click turned on, circa 1990. Nick B ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
//* OFFLIST On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 15:50:48 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 10:53:43PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: There are a few who actually *do* have text-only pages. And fewer do have alt= and longdesc= for included images. Being suitable for blind users doesn't mean to completely look boring to viewing users. Careful HTML coding is the key. But sadly, it's not considered modern... :-( Right on the money there! I suppose it's easier to slap up some pix. maybe I do things with fewer photos because I hand-code html. In any case, I'm very conscious of my markup; I always check it via lynx . I work the same way, but I even apply the step of validating the HTML code through W3C validator. I would appreciate an urge to web developers to code valid HTML. And web browsers should implement it. Then all the scary non-HTML pages could not be viewable anymore, the browser shows nothing, or gives an error message: The page you're intending to view does not contain valid HTML and cannot be displayed. Contact the author to request a valid version of the document. :-) Education is the only solution, even tho it will take generations. That's why I think the XO is a win++ It can help, if properly used. Wrong use can lead into the opposite. I can only tell you from Germany where school and education are epically failing since 1990, even though they employ modern means of education... a joke from an educational (scientifical) point of view. Are there regional differences, still? East/west? whatever? Of course. First off all, basic education in the eastern part (GDR) is still a bit better due to better teachers who are still on duty. In the western part (FRG), education is worse, basically. Then, there are differences between the federal countries. There's no common educational concept. Schools are organized differently (different layers, different names, different degrees), horizontally and vertically. Degrees are not comparable inside Germany, so for example when you leave Gymnasium (high school) in Hamburg, you can join a university in Hamburg, but you cannot join a university in Munich because it doesn't recognize your degree from Hamburg. There are no common teaching plans. If you move from Leipzig to Hannover, you're doomed. The GDR didn't have those problems. Teaching plans were the same in every school. Same plans, same books, same speed. Results were comparable. Sweden has adopted the unified GDR educational system, with success. In the FRG, education selects the future of the children by the income of their parents. If you have rich parents, you can affort to go to Gymnasium (high school, 13 years) and go to university later on. If your parents are poor, e. g. unemployed, you have to go to Hauptschule (main school, 8 years), and maybe Realschule (real school, 10 years), but you cannot go to university with such a degree. You will even have major problems finding a professional education in order to get a job. The levels of how good schools are considered in society have lowered through the years. In approx. 1995, Gymnasium was over-qualified, Realschule was ideal for a very good job and Hauptschule was good for a normal job. 10 years later, in approx. 2005, everything was shifted , with Hauptschule now just for a helper job, e. g. carrying sand bags on a building site. Today, this is what Real- schule was, again shifted , and Hauptschule is the direct way to unemployment after school. And how does GErmany stack up compared to the rest of the EU? Quite bad. The reason is simple: Basal knowledge isn't taught in schools anymore. After 8 or 10 years, there are still massive deficites in reading and basic calculating. Other copuntries in the EU are already recognizing the development and are investigating about how to improve the educational system. The FRG, of course, can't do that. Today's educational system is the same as of Kaiser's and Hitler's time. So it CANNOT BE CHANGED. Period. A good comparison is Japan or China. The first stages of education are quite frontal. Basic things are repeated until you can rely on them. Later on, there's no repeatition anymore. And why? Because it isn't needed. Pupils and teachers can rely on their presence. The GDR had the concept of the Kindergarten, which prepared children for school, equipping them with basic knowledge and some handcrafting skills. And the States. I always considered the States to have not a very good educational system (this is due to how Americans are precepted here, especially on TV), but it has one advantage which I consider very modern: It gives you the right NOT to send your kids to a public school (where they have to wear weapons and are slapped into the face by classmates if they don't hand over their money or mobile phone),
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 02:43:56 +0100, Roland Smith rsm...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 12:47:49PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote: Nothing tactile, and because neither Linux nor BSD has an audio click, not even that. Sun does have a command line It should. The X window system provides a way to get keyclicks with xset(1). The command 'xset c 100' whould generate the loudest click possible. Whether you hear something depends e.g. on how the X server is started, and wether the hardware supports it. On my PC I hear the 'bell' from the PC speaker, but no clicks. Same here, too. Even xset c on (as mentioned in man xset) doesn't work. Maybe the AT / USB keyboard is missing a speaker. The Sun type = 4 keyboards included one. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: What I've got to do is pick up where I kwit ten years ago with the kernel driver code and drop the the code to make the speaker-audio create tiny, brief clicks, preferably low, thunky sounds like ye ancient IBM Selectrics. Connect an IBM 3270 to your server and you'll have the keyclicks implemented in hardware. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 13:01:07 +0100, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: //* OFFLIST Sorry, hit the wrong button - I hope it doesn't bother anyone. If it does, don't read it. Outdoor concert will start today at 3 p.m., but if it rains a 3 p.m., we'll already begin at 1 p.m. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800 Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 01:10:45AM +, Chris Whitehouse wrote: Gary Kline wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. Hi Gary, someone posted recently about the play-string language for /dev/speaker, see speaker(4). Could you do something with that? btw thanks to whoever posted the play-string code for frere jaques - cracked me up :) Chris Yeah :) I play little tunelets on certain battery power events, when some IP gets blacklisted by some logtailing script, things like that. Wow; the stuff I've never heard about:-) --I just tried spkrtest and have no /dev/speaker. # kldload speaker device speaker isn't in kernel GENERIC. If it doesn't work immediately, try adding speaker_load=YES to /boot/loader.conf .. this assumes that your box _has_ a working speaker, eg beeps once while booting? Some laptops use the sound'card' for speaker, and provide a mixer level. The short answer [Guess] is no, I dont think so. If getting the keys to have an auditory feedback with beeps or shorter clicks were that easy, it would have been done after 15 years. Even Linux lacks this--and I'd bet Minux too. What I've got to do is pick up where I kwit ten years ago with the kernel driver code and drop the the code to make the speaker-audio create tiny, brief clicks, preferably low, thunky sounds like ye ancient IBM Selectrics. You can do quite a lot with various tempos, intervals and frequencies; see speaker(4) and play around. Making a short click or thunk! should be easy enough, but spkrtest and echoing playstrings /dev/speaker are userland processes; I've no idea how much 'fun' it would be to invoke /dev/speaker ioctls from the kbd drivers. But if you're really keen: % find /sys/ -name speaker* -o -name spkr* cheers, Ian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 09:36:14AM +, Matthew Seaman wrote: Gary Kline wrote: The short answer [Guess] is no, I dont think so. If getting the keys to have an auditory feedback with beeps or shorter clicks were that easy, it would have been done after 15 years. Even Linux lacks this--and I'd bet Minux too. Uh, it was done years ago. Look at the xset(1) manual page -- there are options there to turn on key-click. They've been there since before the millennium as I recall. Most people find key-click intensely annoying (even more so if it's on someone else's machine) so it's turned off by default. Oh, yeah. In the late 80's when I joined my Nth startup and worked with several fellow hackers in a large room, my Sun was the only one with the click turned on. It drove my fellow programmers nuts, but that wasn't much I could do. If there were a speaker jack on the 3/80 computers, I would have been willing to wear earphones... As it's an X windows thing, it should be available on any OS where you can run an X server, so any Linux or FreeBSD. Of course, you will need some sort of speaker in the machine to generate the noises, but that can be very rudimentary. If your machine can emit a beep, then it can probably do key click too. It beep--my old Dell, just extremely faint. My hearing is still good--it's amazing I'm not out chasing cars. But I've tried turing on the key click. Zero. This older computer was high end in 2003 but I don't remember seeing a real speaker, so if it's some IC that's producing the 'beep', I'm outta luck. ...I'm staring at xset.c; maybe the clues are in there. Nothin in the README. gary PS: HA: the click percent is set to the SERVER_DEFAULT. (-1) well, golly-gee-wilikers... . Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard Flat 3 PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate Kent, CT11 9PW -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 01:14:46PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: What I've got to do is pick up where I kwit ten years ago with the kernel driver code and drop the the code to make the speaker-audio create tiny, brief clicks, preferably low, thunky sounds like ye ancient IBM Selectrics. Connect an IBM 3270 to your server and you'll have the keyclicks implemented in hardware. :-) [Heart throb.] about one of those beasts is my limit. An office full of people thunk-thunking on those things would have driven me around the bend. ... . gary -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 13:42:33 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: Oh, yeah. In the late 80's when I joined my Nth startup and worked with several fellow hackers in a large room, my Sun was the only one with the click turned on. It drove my fellow programmers nuts, but that wasn't much I could do. If there were a speaker jack on the 3/80 computers, I would have been willing to wear earphones... On early 386 PCs where there was a real powerful speaker inside the box, I created a headphone out by removing the speaker and replacing it by a 3.5mm jack, so I could attach earphones. A program I wrote could output waveform data through the PC speaker (in absence of a real sound card), so this was a kind of do it yourself soundcard. Imagine the fun of connecting a PA. :-) This older computer was high end in 2003 but I don't remember seeing a real speaker, so if it's some IC that's producing the 'beep', I'm outta luck. In modern PCs, the speaker is often replaced by a kind of micro-speaker, a black cylindrical object with 0.5mm radius and a small hole in its top. It's a kind of piezo-speaker, sufficient for a friendly little Beep! at boot time. The development of recent PCs, as well as of notebooks and netbooks, makes me think that there won't be a speaker (a physical one) in the future anymore. On some systems, e. g. a Siemens-Fujitsu notebook I own, the speaker's functionality is given by the sound card and through its speakers, but the control for the speaker is still the traditional way. Maybe this way - simply sending 0x07 / BEL, or something like /dev/speaker implements - won't be possible in the future... This will force the output of any sounds through the sound card (or its representation by the chipset respectively), requiring a specific driver to access the particular hardware. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 01:19:49AM +1100, Ian Smith wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800 Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 01:10:45AM +, Chris Whitehouse wrote: Gary Kline wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. Hi Gary, someone posted recently about the play-string language for /dev/speaker, see speaker(4). Could you do something with that? btw thanks to whoever posted the play-string code for frere jaques - cracked me up :) Chris Yeah :) I play little tunelets on certain battery power events, when some IP gets blacklisted by some logtailing script, things like that. Wow; the stuff I've never heard about:-) --I just tried spkrtest and have no /dev/speaker. # kldload speaker Thanks! I just listened to the opening few notes of Star Trek [!] But very faint and I don't know if the dinky BEL is a chip or a real speaker. Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. device speaker isn't in kernel GENERIC. If it doesn't work immediately, try adding speaker_load=YES to /boot/loader.conf .. this assumes that your box _has_ a working speaker, eg beeps once while booting? Probably help to be a dog! --That reminds me of what my parents generation were saying about mine [with its loud music]. That we'd all be nerve-deaf by age 55.-- Teh computer does beep as an error sound. How adjustable it is other than just beeping, dunno. Some laptops use the sound'card' for speaker, and provide a mixer level. Should be a way to send the beep to my desktop speakers, then, right? I've got volume and power, treble/bass. The short answer [Guess] is no, I dont think so. If getting the keys to have an auditory feedback with beeps or shorter clicks were that easy, it would have been done after 15 years. Even Linux lacks this--and I'd bet Minux too. What I've got to do is pick up where I kwit ten years ago with the kernel driver code and drop the the code to make the speaker-audio create tiny, brief clicks, preferably low, thunky sounds like ye ancient IBM Selectrics. You can do quite a lot with various tempos, intervals and frequencies; see speaker(4) and play around. Making a short click or thunk! should be easy enough, but spkrtest and echoing playstrings /dev/speaker are userland processes; I've no idea how much 'fun' it would be to invoke /dev/speaker ioctls from the kbd drivers. But if you're really keen: Def !fun, but not rocket science either. I'll poke around at this stuff. % find /sys/ -name speaker* -o -name spkr* I've found spkr.c; still there after all these months, :) thanks again, gary PS: this might be interesting: I just tried to get % xset c 50 and % xset on on my Ubuntu Thinkpad. Zip. At least here I've got the code! cheers, Ian -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 15:07:34 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: Thanks! I just listened to the opening few notes of Star Trek [!] But very faint and I don't know if the dinky BEL is a chip or a real speaker. You can determine it easily: If you plug something into the sound card in order to mute the built-in speakers, and you still hear a sound, it's a real speaker besides the sound card's speakers. If you don't hear anything, all audio output - sound card AND PC speaker - is done by the built-in speakers. Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. Early sound cards (e. g. the Logitech SoundMan 16) had an option to copy PC speaker output to the sound card output, even allowing to set the volume of this channel (treated like any other channel, e. g. CD, PCM, MIDI). Probably help to be a dog! --That reminds me of what my parents generation were saying about mine [with its loud music]. That we'd all be nerve-deaf by age 55.-- Teh computer does beep as an error sound. How adjustable it is other than just beeping, dunno. The kind of beep that is emitted (e. g. via BEL) doesn't seem to be adjustable. I had different systems, one of them just gave a clicking sound, where the other one made a long tone, and a third one made a normal tone. It seems to be determined by hardware. Should be a way to send the beep to my desktop speakers, then, right? I've got volume and power, treble/bass. If the PC speaker output is realized through the sound card (and its speakers), it will leave the computer through those speakers, or through the headphone jack. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 01:18:48PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 13:01:07 +0100, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: //* OFFLIST Sorry, hit the wrong button - I hope it doesn't bother anyone. If it does, don't read it. Ja vohl; I caught it. 'Most everybody know my leanings; just didnt want to waste that many electrons! Outdoor concert will start today at 3 p.m., but if it rains a 3 p.m., we'll already begin at 1 p.m. :-) Ah, life [tra-la, tra-la] ... . -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 03:07:34PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote: On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 01:19:49AM +1100, Ian Smith wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 20:23:22 -0800 Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 01:10:45AM +, Chris Whitehouse wrote: Gary Kline wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. Hi Gary, someone posted recently about the play-string language for /dev/speaker, see speaker(4). Could you do something with that? btw thanks to whoever posted the play-string code for frere jaques - cracked me up :) Chris Yeah :) I play little tunelets on certain battery power events, when some IP gets blacklisted by some logtailing script, things like that. Wow; the stuff I've never heard about:-) --I just tried spkrtest and have no /dev/speaker. # kldload speaker Thanks! I just listened to the opening few notes of Star Trek [!] But very faint and I don't know if the dinky BEL is a chip or a real speaker. Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. device speaker isn't in kernel GENERIC. If it doesn't work immediately, try adding speaker_load=YES to /boot/loader.conf .. this assumes that your box _has_ a working speaker, eg beeps once while booting? [[ ... ]] FWIW, I just got things set up on my new dell. But, like the '03 computer, the beep is too soft to do any good. Somehow, my Ubuntu desktop has the vim beep working thru the powered speakers on my Thinkpad. But the xset click simply does not work. Not here on my main desktop, not on the laptop. Some laptops use the sound'card' for speaker, and provide a mixer level. Should be a way to send the beep to my desktop speakers, then, right? I've got volume and power, treble/bass. The short answer [Guess] is no, I dont think so. If getting the keys to have an auditory feedback with beeps or shorter clicks were that easy, it would have been done after 15 years. Even Linux lacks this--and I'd bet Minux too. What I've got to do is pick up where I kwit ten years ago with the kernel driver code and drop the the code to make the speaker-audio create tiny, brief clicks, preferably low, thunky sounds like ye ancient IBM Selectrics. You can do quite a lot with various tempos, intervals and frequencies; see speaker(4) and play around. Making a short click or thunk! should be easy enough, but spkrtest and echoing playstrings /dev/speaker are userland processes; I've no idea how much 'fun' it would be to invoke /dev/speaker ioctls from the kbd drivers. But if you're really keen: Def !fun, but not rocket science either. I'll poke around at this stuff. % find /sys/ -name speaker* -o -name spkr* Another tidbit is that I found my audio code from 1996; it runs into compiler errors because some of the DSP things have been moved. holy bleep, batboy gary cheers, Ian -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
Anybody know how I can redirect the beep to my speakers? I miss the confirmation that vi/vim puts out. Outside of X, our kbdcontrol(1) offers pitch and duration (but not volume) control for the console bell via the -b flag. The volume is often dependent upon the hardware and/or the bios, and in some cases cannot be easily changed. Unfortunately, our keyboard-handling code does not seem to allow the remapping of individual keys to strings -- I think that can be done in Linux -- so we can't add a bel to every keypress by defining an alternative keymap via kbdcontrol, without hacking the code (but since ed@ is working on a new console driver, this might be a good time to request features...). However, at a slightly higher level, many shells and editors will allow you to rebind keys. And some will allow you to redefine the action taken when the bell is sounded: for instance, out csh(1) has the nifty beepcmd. You could customize this to play a sound file of your own choice through your sound card, where you presumably have more control over the sound, and then try to use bindkey to issue bels with keypresses. Of course, this will only take effect while you're in that shell or editor, but you could use the idea to hack the syscons(4) driver to redefine sc_bell() if a certain sysctl is set... b. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:47:49 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: If someone in the kernel-side would work with me and add the Audio click, I will look at some of the netbooks to see how usable they are. One problem might occur when the desired device doesn't have a PC speaker functionality and only offers sound output through the sound card (inside the chipset, which is a chip, and mostly is the CPU itself). Programming a PC speaker beep is, as far as I can imagine, more simple to implement than a sound generation by the DSP (which requires a driver to do so). There are millions of people world-wide with impaired speech who can type. There are also millions of blind people world-wide, but web developers don't pay any attention on them. :-) As a first cut, is there somebody on the kernel side I should check with to see about adding a click driver? You could initially have a look at the atkbd (or ukbd?) source files. Maybe just inserting some output of the ASCII character 0x07 (BEL) after each recognized keypress would be sufficient, but... no, it won't be that easy. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 10:01:31PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:47:49 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: If someone in the kernel-side would work with me and add the Audio click, I will look at some of the netbooks to see how usable they are. One problem might occur when the desired device doesn't have a PC speaker functionality and only offers sound output through the sound card (inside the chipset, which is a chip, and mostly is the CPU itself). Programming a PC speaker beep is, as far as I can imagine, more simple to implement than a sound generation by the DSP (which requires a driver to do so). at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. The xset utility let me turn off repeating keys so that I do type type that way. xset also has a key-click setting for click and loudness. Don't know about pitch. That would need to be integrated with what I'm thinking of. There are millions of people world-wide with impaired speech who can type. There are also millions of blind people world-wide, but web developers don't pay any attention on them. :-) There are a few who actually *do* have text-only pages. (That's another issue: getting espeak or festival to be able to read aloud: ``Hello, how's it going?'' ...) In the third-word are at least millions of disabled folks-- mostly mouldering. Some thinking: What the hey? Why not blow myself up and then wake up in paradise? I'll get 70 angels all to myself. Oh-boy. Education is the only solution, even tho it will take generations. That's why I think the XO is a win++ As a first cut, is there somebody on the kernel side I should check with to see about adding a click driver? You could initially have a look at the atkbd (or ukbd?) source files. Maybe just inserting some output of the ASCII character 0x07 (BEL) after each recognized keypress would be sufficient, but... no, it won't be that easy. :-) Circa fall, 1999 I did this; it was almost concurrent with a power-out-power-on-power-out-power-on all within 7 of 8 seconds. That blew mt almost new 9.1G SCSI drive. I said 'bleep it' and quit. ---this was when my shoulder started dislocate, c, so...-- Anyway, thanks for the clue, Polyt. Anybody else? I have written other k-side drivers, but that was in the mid-80s. They are a bear to test... . -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. The xset utility let me turn off repeating keys so that I do type type that way. xset also has a key-click setting for click and loudness. Don't know about pitch. That would need to be integrated with what I'm thinking of. There's xset b vol pitch duration; vol cannot be changed for the PC speaker, pitch is in Hz and duration in ms. If vol is 100, it's functionality is implemented by shortening the duration. A command like xset b 100 100 25 should give what you want. As far as I understood, the PC speaker has no volume control per se. There are a few who actually *do* have text-only pages. And fewer do have alt= and longdesc= for included images. Being suitable for blind users doesn't mean to completely look boring to viewing users. Careful HTML coding is the key. But sadly, it's not considered modern... :-( In the third-word are at least millions of disabled folks-- mostly mouldering. Some thinking: What the hey? Why not blow myself up and then wake up in paradise? I'll get 70 angels all to myself. Oh-boy. Hmmm... that sounds appealing. :-) Education is the only solution, even tho it will take generations. That's why I think the XO is a win++ It can help, if properly used. Wrong use can lead into the opposite. I can only tell you from Germany where school and education are epically failing since 1990, even though they employ modern means of education... a joke from an educational (scientifical) point of view. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 10:53:43PM +0100, Polytropon wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. The xset utility let me turn off repeating keys so that I do type type that way. xset also has a key-click setting for click and loudness. Don't know about pitch. That would need to be integrated with what I'm thinking of. There's xset b vol pitch duration; vol cannot be changed for the PC speaker, pitch is in Hz and duration in ms. If vol is 100, it's functionality is implemented by shortening the duration. A command like xset b 100 100 25 should give what you want. As far as I understood, the PC speaker has no volume control per se. you cmd example failed on my Konsole; the usage output was output. The beep is extremely low on the old Dell, and I'm still running without X11 on my server. I'll poke around for other, things that don't requie X. I'm looking at the drivers too. There are a few who actually *do* have text-only pages. And fewer do have alt= and longdesc= for included images. Being suitable for blind users doesn't mean to completely look boring to viewing users. Careful HTML coding is the key. But sadly, it's not considered modern... :-( Right on the money there! I suppose it's easier to slap up some pix. maybe I do things with fewer photos because I hand-code html. In any case, I'm very conscious of my markup; I always check it via lynx . In the third-word are at least millions of disabled folks-- mostly mouldering. Some thinking: What the hey? Why not blow myself up and then wake up in paradise? I'll get 70 angels all to myself. Oh-boy. Hmmm... that sounds appealing. :-) lOL, really. Education is the only solution, even tho it will take generations. That's why I think the XO is a win++ It can help, if properly used. Wrong use can lead into the opposite. I can only tell you from Germany where school and education are epically failing since 1990, even though they employ modern means of education... a joke from an educational (scientifical) point of view. Are there regional differences, still? East/west? whatever? And how does GErmany stack up compared to the rest of the EU? And the States. Public school or university? Here it seems that lots of our grade schools are losing; grades 6-9 same. 9-12, same. Hey, the West is already losing to South and East Asia. I'm not entirely sorry. I say: let them muck around with global problems; see how they faire.Blah * 3. :) gary PS: any idea how I can get/fetch the kdbio modules from of 2.2 to of 3.1? -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
Gary Kline wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. Hi Gary, someone posted recently about the play-string language for /dev/speaker, see speaker(4). Could you do something with that? btw thanks to whoever posted the play-string code for frere jaques - cracked me up :) Chris ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 12:47:49PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote: Nothing tactile, and because neither Linux nor BSD has an audio click, not even that. Sun does have a command line It should. The X window system provides a way to get keyclicks with xset(1). The command 'xset c 100' whould generate the loudest click possible. Whether you hear something depends e.g. on how the X server is started, and wether the hardware supports it. On my PC I hear the 'bell' from the PC speaker, but no clicks. Roland -- R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) pgpD2cPfmd60u.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 01:10:45AM +, Chris Whitehouse wrote: Gary Kline wrote: On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:37:13 -0800, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote: at first I'm lookings for a cots (commericial, off-the-shelf) solution. The XO has stereo speakers and so do the notebooks. I am thinking of the 'PC speaker'; something that would sound for around a 25th/second, very low and with at least some loudness control. Hi Gary, someone posted recently about the play-string language for /dev/speaker, see speaker(4). Could you do something with that? btw thanks to whoever posted the play-string code for frere jaques - cracked me up :) Chris Wow; the stuff I've never heard about:-) --I just tried spkrtest and have no /dev/speaker. The short answer [Guess] is no, I dont think so. If getting the keys to have an auditory feedback with beeps or shorter clicks were that easy, it would have been done after 15 years. Even Linux lacks this--and I'd bet Minux too. What I've got to do is pick up where I kwit ten years ago with the kernel driver code and drop the the code to make the speaker-audio create tiny, brief clicks, preferably low, thunky sounds like ye ancient IBM Selectrics. gary -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: clicky driver
On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 02:43:56AM +0100, Roland Smith wrote: On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 12:47:49PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote: Nothing tactile, and because neither Linux nor BSD has an audio click, not even that. Sun does have a command line It should. The X window system provides a way to get keyclicks with xset(1). The command 'xset c 100' whould generate the loudest click possible. Whether you hear something depends e.g. on how the X server is started, and wether the hardware supports it. On my PC I hear the 'bell' from the PC speaker, but no clicks. Blow me away! Is there a version of xset without X11? Or: how do I get X up on my server? I.e.: what do I need to compile it and launch to get, say, twm up? I bought the loudest old-fashioned clicky keyboard (for like $80) and it's beautifully loud. Tactile Plus auditory feedback. It is beyond outstanding. But to bring this along with some notebook would not be practical. I can barely hear my desktop's beep when I have mail, so can't hear anything when I do % xset c 100 . Besides, in '99 I was able to gen up regular beep, beep, beep with each keystroke. --I killed that; after a minute it was driving me up the bloody wall. But that is the right approach. ---Nutshell, I would like someone with more kernel background than I have to help me. At least with the compile in diver, rebuild-install kernel script. Like Polyt noted, it won't be easy. But I think it's worth a couple weekends' of experimenting. What kind of desktop computer do you have? gary Roland -- R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 7.79a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
