Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-24 Thread David Schultz
Thus spake Cliff Sarginson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 03:09:12PM -0800, David Schultz wrote:
  Thus spake Cliff Sarginson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  FreeBSD support for ext2fs is a specific instance of the more
  general problem that features that very few people care about tend
  not to get maintained.  FreeBSD already has a filesystem that is
  more complete and faster than ext2fs,[1] so the only people using
  both UFS and ext2fs are also running Linux.  If you mount an
  ext2fs filesystem r/w, consider yourself a beta tester.
  
 Oh I am not comparing their relative merits. But the thing is there are
 people who for one reason or another run heterogenous networks. I mean
 it is not a crime to run both Linux and FreeBSD (or is it ?). My feeling
 is that it is a shame that is all. 
 
 As for your scathing comment about the evolution of EXT2, I have no comment
 since it sounds like opinion rather than fact. 

The point of my post was to point out why nobody is interested in
maintaining FreeBSD's ext2fs support.  But ext2fs really is a
simplified version of FFS!  Basically, they took out support for
fragments and vastly simplified the allocation policies.  Some of
the things they took out aren't even used anymore in FFS, like the
code to take rotational offsets on the disk into consideration.
On the other hand, they left out Kirk's realloc algorithm, which
has been shown to significantly reduce fragmentation as
filesystems age.

(FYI, some people have expressed interest in porting ReiserFS to
FreeBSD.  Hans Reiser is willing to negotiate special exceptions
to the license, as long as Microsoft can't build the next version
of Windows on top of FreeBSD and be able to use his filesystem for
free.)

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-21 Thread Kris Kennaway
On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 08:25:56AM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
 On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:12:12PM -0500, Chris Pepper wrote:
  At 7:50 PM -0800 2002/11/20, David Schultz wrote:
  Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 snip
  LINT says:
  #
  # Add support for the EXT2FS filesystem of Linux fame.  Be a bit
  # careful with this - the ext2fs code has a tendency to lag behind
  # changes and not be exercised very much, so mounting read/write could
  # be dangerous (and even mounting read only could result in panics.)
  #
  options EXT2FS
  
 This message has been in LINT since the dawn of time and is extremely
 mystifying. Be a bit careful .. meaning what ? You either mount it or
 don't mount it, use it or don't use it. What exactly are you supposed to
 be careful of :) Saying Boo!.

Data corruption.

Kris



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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-21 Thread Giorgos Keramidas
On 2002-11-20 19:50, David Schultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  I know they're distinct, but it's silly for a discussion of Linux
  applications to ignore the possibility of those apps residing on a
  Linux filesystem. I couldn't find ext2fs documented anywhere,
  which is the first issue. The second is adding a link  comment to
  the LABI chapter.

 Hmm...I think you're right.  I don't see any documentation for the
 option.  I would just as soon hook the module up to the default
 build like all the other modules, but maybe the license is an issue.

The license *is* an issue.  Distributing kernels that by default
include GPL'ed code can have many complications for people who make
commercial applications based on FreeBSD source.


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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-21 Thread David Schultz
Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  even into GENERIC.  To do the latter, the module must exist;
  it will be created if you make the kernel with -DWANT_EXT2FS_MODULE.
  It is also installed by sysinstall, IIRC.
 
[...]
 
 Hmm...I think you're right.  I don't see any documentation for the
 option.  I would just as soon hook the module up to the default
 build like all the other modules, but maybe the license is an issue.
 
   I think it's off by default for stability, but would like to 
 submit a patch to the LABI Handbook chapter  linking to a discussion 
 of the FS module. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a URL that 
 describes it.

Thus spake Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 The license *is* an issue.  Distributing kernels that by default
 include GPL'ed code can have many complications for people who make
 commercial applications based on FreeBSD source.

I'm not talking about linking ext2fs support into the kernel by
default, I'm talking about just *creating* the module by default.
See previous discussion.  Stability isn't an issue, except for
people who explicitly load the module.  I'm aware of the problems
with linking GPL'd code into the kernel, but that's not what is
being discussed here.  The license would only be a problem if
there are legal or religious reasons against people building
binaries that *could* be linked into the kernel.

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-21 Thread David Schultz
Thus spake Cliff Sarginson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
  LINT says:
  #
  # Add support for the EXT2FS filesystem of Linux fame.  Be a bit
  # careful with this - the ext2fs code has a tendency to lag behind
  # changes and not be exercised very much, so mounting read/write could
  # be dangerous (and even mounting read only could result in panics.)
  #
  options EXT2FS
  
 This message has been in LINT since the dawn of time and is extremely
 mystifying. Be a bit careful .. meaning what ? You either mount it or
 don't mount it, use it or don't use it. What exactly are you supposed to
 be careful of :) Saying Boo!.

FreeBSD support for ext2fs is a specific instance of the more
general problem that features that very few people care about tend
not to get maintained.  FreeBSD already has a filesystem that is
more complete and faster than ext2fs,[1] so the only people using
both UFS and ext2fs are also running Linux.  If you mount an
ext2fs filesystem r/w, consider yourself a beta tester.


[1] The designers of ext2 basically took FFS and removed the parts
they didn't care for or were hard to implement.

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-20 Thread Chris Pepper
At 2:06 AM -0800 2002/11/19, David Schultz wrote:

Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 	I'm trying to get at a file on an ext2fs slice. I'm a bit

 confused about kernel recompiles vs. KLDs for Linux compatibility,
 though. Am I reading correctly at

  http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/linuxemu.html

  http://www.seabug.org/archive/2000-05/msg00086.html, that I can
 run Linux applications with a single command or rc.conf entry, but
 accessing files on ext2 file systems requires a kernel rebuild?

	This seems a bit backwards -- is anyone aware of work to make
 ext2fs a standard module, so it can be loaded under GENERIC?


Running Linux binaries and using Linux filesystems are two
completely different things.  To to the former, and the
appropriate rc.conf entry and install ports/emulators/linux_base
as described in the Handbook.  To use ext2fs, you can either add
the option EXT2FS to your kernel config to compile it statically
into your kernel, or you can load the ext2fs module dynamically,
even into GENERIC.  To do the latter, the module must exist;
it will be created if you make the kernel with -DWANT_EXT2FS_MODULE.
It is also installed by sysinstall, IIRC.


David,

	I know they're distinct, but it's silly for a discussion of 
Linux applications to ignore the possibility of those apps residing 
on a Linux filesystem. I couldn't find ext2fs documented anywhere, 
which is the first issue. The second is adding a link  comment to 
the LABI chapter.


	Thanks for the tip -- I used WANT_EXT2FS_MODULE=TRUE in 
/etc/make.conf, which will be persistent. I think if I ever need to 
use it just one time in the future, I'll try cd 
/usr/src/sys/modules/ext2fs; make install, which looks a bit easier 
to find now that I know what to look for.

	Interestingly, I don't have a copy from sysinstall, and I 
never manually removed it.


		Thanks,


		Chris Pepper
--
Chris Pepper:   http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/
Rockefeller University: http://www.rockefeller.edu/

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-20 Thread David Schultz
Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 To use ext2fs, you can either add
 the option EXT2FS to your kernel config to compile it statically
 into your kernel, or you can load the ext2fs module dynamically,
 even into GENERIC.  To do the latter, the module must exist;
 it will be created if you make the kernel with -DWANT_EXT2FS_MODULE.
 It is also installed by sysinstall, IIRC.
 
 David,
 
   I know they're distinct, but it's silly for a discussion of 
 Linux applications to ignore the possibility of those apps residing 
 on a Linux filesystem. I couldn't find ext2fs documented anywhere, 
 which is the first issue. The second is adding a link  comment to 
 the LABI chapter.

Hmm...I think you're right.  I don't see any documentation for the
option.  I would just as soon hook the module up to the default
build like all the other modules, but maybe the license is an issue.

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-20 Thread Chris Pepper
At 7:50 PM -0800 2002/11/20, David Schultz wrote:

Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 To use ext2fs, you can either add
 the option EXT2FS to your kernel config to compile it statically
 into your kernel, or you can load the ext2fs module dynamically,
 even into GENERIC.  To do the latter, the module must exist;
 it will be created if you make the kernel with -DWANT_EXT2FS_MODULE.
 It is also installed by sysinstall, IIRC.

 David,

	I know they're distinct, but it's silly for a discussion of
 Linux applications to ignore the possibility of those apps residing
 on a Linux filesystem. I couldn't find ext2fs documented anywhere,
 which is the first issue. The second is adding a link  comment to
 the LABI chapter.


Hmm...I think you're right.  I don't see any documentation for the
option.  I would just as soon hook the module up to the default
build like all the other modules, but maybe the license is an issue.


	I think it's off by default for stability, but would like to 
submit a patch to the LABI Handbook chapter  linking to a discussion 
of the FS module. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a URL that 
describes it.

	LINT says:
#
# Add support for the EXT2FS filesystem of Linux fame.  Be a bit
# careful with this - the ext2fs code has a tendency to lag behind
# changes and not be exercised very much, so mounting read/write could
# be dangerous (and even mounting read only could result in panics.)
#
options EXT2FS



		Chris Pepper
--
Chris Pepper:   http://www.reppep.com/~pepper/
Rockefeller University: http://www.rockefeller.edu/

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-20 Thread Cliff Sarginson
On Wed, Nov 20, 2002 at 11:12:12PM -0500, Chris Pepper wrote:
 At 7:50 PM -0800 2002/11/20, David Schultz wrote:
 Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
snip
   LINT says:
 #
 # Add support for the EXT2FS filesystem of Linux fame.  Be a bit
 # careful with this - the ext2fs code has a tendency to lag behind
 # changes and not be exercised very much, so mounting read/write could
 # be dangerous (and even mounting read only could result in panics.)
 #
 options EXT2FS
 
This message has been in LINT since the dawn of time and is extremely
mystifying. Be a bit careful .. meaning what ? You either mount it or
don't mount it, use it or don't use it. What exactly are you supposed to
be careful of :) Saying Boo!.

I don't actually use it, but there have been occasional emails, and some
published stuff that says it works fine.

Just be a bit careful !

-- 
Regards
   Cliff Sarginson 
   The Netherlands

[ This mail has been checked as virus-free ]

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-19 Thread David Schultz
Thus spake Chris Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
   I'm trying to get at a file on an ext2fs slice. I'm a bit 
 confused about kernel recompiles vs. KLDs for Linux compatibility, 
 though. Am I reading correctly at 
 http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/linuxemu.html 
  http://www.seabug.org/archive/2000-05/msg00086.html, that I can 
 run Linux applications with a single command or rc.conf entry, but 
 accessing files on ext2 file systems requires a kernel rebuild?
 
   This seems a bit backwards -- is anyone aware of work to make 
 ext2fs a standard module, so it can be loaded under GENERIC?

Running Linux binaries and using Linux filesystems are two
completely different things.  To to the former, and the
appropriate rc.conf entry and install ports/emulators/linux_base
as described in the Handbook.  To use ext2fs, you can either add
the option EXT2FS to your kernel config to compile it statically
into your kernel, or you can load the ext2fs module dynamically,
even into GENERIC.  To do the latter, the module must exist;
it will be created if you make the kernel with -DWANT_EXT2FS_MODULE.
It is also installed by sysinstall, IIRC.

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Re: Confirmation: ext2fs requires kernel rebuild?

2002-11-18 Thread Kris Kennaway
On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 11:47:21PM -0500, Chris Pepper wrote:

   This seems a bit backwards -- is anyone aware of work to make 
 ext2fs a standard module, so it can be loaded under GENERIC?

xor# uname -a
FreeBSD xor.obsecurity.org 4.7-STABLE FreeBSD 4.7-STABLE #7: Sun Nov  3 17:11:34 PST 
2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/mnt/src-4.x/sys/compile/XOR  i386
xor# ls -l /modules/ext2fs.ko
-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  59428 Nov 17 19:21 /modules/ext2fs.ko

Kris



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