Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-11 Thread Erik Sabowski

 On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, James Hicks wrote:
 require any kind of defrag? I was told by my UNIX instructor that
 freebsd had hardware recognition trouble. Is this true and if so has it
 been fixed?

of the 3 or 4 linux distros I have experience with, one 1 has not required me 
to manually add a device driver or two. despite the lack of prettyness of 
freebsd's installer, I find freebsd to be by far quicker and easier to 
install. I have also found that freebsd's ports are easier to install and 
maintain that linux's rpms.

 to use freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that linux has? Do
 you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better stability
 than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply. Thanks

you aren't really going to get a truly partial answer to that question on this 
mailing list, I think just about everyone will tell you that freebsd wins in 
the stability department. but in all my dealings with linux, i never once 
heard someone say linux was more stable than freebsd :)

erik

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread Roman Neuhauser
# [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 2003-01-09 21:26:10 -0800:
 I have been doing a lot of reading in magazines like pcmagazine and
 sought info online using sources like the freebsd homepage, zdnet,
 cnet, etc. I'm hearing alot of your UNIX os. I have a few questions
 about the system. First of all,  is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm
 asking whether or not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone
 just like linux is?

I'm not competent enough to give you an answer, so here's an url:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/explaining-bsd/

 Second, what type of file system does it use?

ufs/ffs. i'm a bit confused as to which name is right, and I see
both names used.
the documentation is the canonical source of course:

/usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs/paper.ascii.gz

 Does it have a journaling one like ext3?

ufs has a feature called Soft Updates, which should get you the
same result by different means.

 I was told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition
 trouble.  Is this true and if so has it been fixed?

FreeBSD itself has no problems with hardware recognition. There
might not be a driver for your hardware, though. :)

Seriously, though: some hardware vendors are more likely to create
GPL'd drivers for their products, thinking along the lines of if I
have to give up the knowledge of this portion of my stuff, no one
else will make money from it either. Think nVidia.

 I have also read that a lot of sysadmins are nervous of putting
 mission critical apps on a enterprise linux system and prefer to use
 freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that linux has?

Quite a few people will say: stability; I say: bloat. But some
sysadmins are nervous of putting mission critical apps on anything
but Solaris. It's mostly what you know: the best OS in the world is
worthless if you can't administer it.

 Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better
 stability than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply.

yes, but what I believe is irrelevant.

also, keep in mind that we're talking about the operating system,
which I here define as the kernel plus supporting programs; IOW the
stuff that you can get from the FreeBSD CVS repository. you might
find that an application critical for you is unstable or displays
unusual quirks on anything but linux because it does not get enough
testing on other unices.

This, unfortunately for quite a few people (that now covers even my
mother and me as I have installed FreeBSD on her computer), covers
KDE, OpenOffice, and lots of other, office-oriented software.

Vietse Venema uses BSD unices as the primary development platforms.

DJB's site runs on {Open,Free}BSD. Seems he's had bad luck with
OpenBSD, see http://cr.yp.to/.

It is my understanding that FreeBSD is the primary development
platform for Apache, but given how many platforms it runs on, this
is not really important. The Apache Software Foundation uses FreeBSD
for their servers though.

-- 
If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore
your message.see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread Jack L. Stone
At 09:26 PM 1.9.2003 -0800, James Hicks wrote:
To whom it may concern,
My name is James. I'm a junior college graduate with an A.S. degree in 
Computer Applications. I took a class in UNIX about a year ago. The os we 
used was Mandrake Linux. I've learned to like Red Hat and have version 8.0 
on my home machine. I have been doing a lot of reading in magazines like 
pcmagazine and sought info online using sources like the freebsd homepage, 
zdnet, cnet, etc. I'm hearing alot of your UNIX os. I have a few questions 
about the system. First of all,  is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm asking 
whether or not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone just like 
linux is? Second, what type of file system does it use? Does it have a 
journaling one like ext3? Do UNIX systems require any kind of defrag? I was 
told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition trouble. Is 
this true and if so has it been fixed? I have also read that a lot of 
sysadmins are nervous of putting mission critical apps on a enterprise linux 
system and prefer to use freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that 
linux has? Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better 
stability than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply. Thanks

James Hicks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


You said:
I was told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition
trouble

Sounds like your instructor needs to do his homework. That is a real
distortion of the facts and shouldn't be taught to students at such an
important junction as it influences which path the student will take.
James, at least you had the impetus to ask this list about it. Good for
you. Follow this list a while and you will learn a tremendous amount about
FBSD. For that matter, follow all of the OS lists available for that is a
great resource. The handbook at:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/
is another rich resource about FBSD.

Once you have installed and tried FBSD, I suspect you find out quickly
about the power and capability of the system.

Good luck (BTW, you can tell your instructer what I said and I'd be
glad to debate that issue with him -- if that is what he really meant)

Best regards,
Jack L. Stone,
Administrator

SageOne Net
http://www.sage-one.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread Andrew Y Ng
On  0, P. U. Kruppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And ... if you know Linux you can easily install and setup
 FreeBSD on your machine and find out everything yourself.

that's not really true, the RH installer is a lot easier to use for most ppl
than sysinstall. for some reason I prefer sysinstall though, probably because
I used to install NetBSD with their textbased installer and never had a
problem with it.

and James, also look into Gentoo, they got some interesting ideas, and Gentoo
developers and users are usually more knowlegeable than other disto. I have
RH8 at work and I hate it, it looks pretty with their Bluecurve theme and the
nice fonts with xft2, but it's so bloated, my fbsd laptop with half the MHz
count runs faster than this RH8 workstation. of the main disto's Debian is
probably the best. Gentoo is closer to BSD and I like it the most.

the biggest problem of running fbsd is probably the lack of support with
some commercial software like Ximian Connector, VMWare (as host OS), etc. 
but I don't need those on my personal laptop or servers and what are in the
port collection is more than sufficient.

check out the handbook and the FAQ on freebsd.org, you will find more than
enough information.

/ayn

 On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, James Hicks wrote:
 
  To whom it may concern,
  My name is James. I'm a junior college graduate with an A.S. degree in
  Computer Applications. I took a class in UNIX about a year ago. The os we
  used was Mandrake Linux. I've learned to like Red Hat and have version 8.0
  on my home machine. I have been doing a lot of reading in magazines like
  pcmagazine and sought info online using sources like the freebsd homepage,
  zdnet, cnet, etc. I'm hearing alot of your UNIX os. I have a few questions
  about the system. First of all,  is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm asking
  whether or not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone just like
  linux is? Second, what type of file system does it use? Does it have a
  journaling one like ext3? Do UNIX systems require any kind of defrag? I was
  told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition trouble. Is
  this true and if so has it been fixed? I have also read that a lot of
  sysadmins are nervous of putting mission critical apps on a enterprise linux
  system and prefer to use freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that
  linux has? Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better
  stability than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply. Thanks
 
  James Hicks
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
 
  _
  Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
  http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
 
 
  To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
 
 
 *---*
 *Peter Ulrich Kruppa*
 *  -  Wuppertal -   *
 *  Germany  *
 *---*
 
 
 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message

-- 
andrew y ng  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://andrewng.com

gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 9BFC594C
fingerprint : 46a1 29ff 893a 0381 dc81  1e1e bed8 e882 9bfc 594c 




msg14975/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread Mike Meyer
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Hicks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
typed:

 First of all, is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm asking whether or
 not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone just like linux
 is?

It's not a clone like Linux is, but there is no longer any
ATT-derived code in it. See the reference previously posted for
details.

 Second, what type of file system does it use?

It's called ffs (fast file system). It's sometimes called ufs as well.

 Does it have a journaling one like ext3?

No, but softupdates gives you the features you probably want from one.

 Do UNIX systems require any kind of defrag?

The answer depends on the file system. Historically, it's been no for
most file systems. There aren't defrag tools in the FreeBSD ports
tree, so I'd say no one who knows enough to write one has felt that
there was any need for one.

 I was told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware
 recognition trouble. Is this true and if so has it been fixed?

FreeBSD recognizes a different set of hardware - probably smaller -
than Linux. Making new hardware work on either system is an ongoing
volunteer effort, and FreeBSD has fewer volunteers than Linux. In
practice, I've never had hardware that wasn't recognized that I
couldn't return.

 I have also read that a lot of sysadmins are nervous of putting
 mission critical apps on a enterprise linux system and prefer to use
 freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that linux has?

There are two problems. First, the focus on Linux development seems to
be on performance rather than stability. FreeBSD does things the other
way around. Performance shortages you can cover by spending a bit
extra. Stability performances you can't cover at all. For desktop
applications, there's just barely enough difference to notice. For
mission critical applications - well, minor changes are a problem.

Second, most linux distributions are aimed at the desktop. This makes
adopting them to a server application difficult. There are linux
distributions that are targeted to the server market, but by moving to
those you've moved into a smaller user base than FreeBSD has, negating
some of the advantages of Linux. Given that FreeBSD can run Linux
applications, you might as well stay with FreeBSD for most things in
this case.

 Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better 
 stability than the GNU systems?

Having carefully examined one Linux device driver, and done work on a
couple of BSD ones, yes, I believe that to be the case. I still
shudder whenever I think about the Linux device driver. And it was
from one of the stars of the Linux community.

mike
-- 
Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread P. U. Kruppa
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Andrew Y Ng wrote:

 On  0, P. U. Kruppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  And ... if you know Linux you can easily install and setup
  FreeBSD on your machine and find out everything yourself.

 that's not really true, the RH installer is a lot easier to use for most ppl
 than sysinstall. for some reason I prefer sysinstall though, probably because
 I used to install NetBSD with their textbased installer and never had a
 problem with it.
You are right. When I started playing around with Linux (it was
Slackware at that time) the installation menu looked like
sysinstall. So it was easy to convert to FreeBSD.
Though, sysinstall gives you the chance to start with a lean,
minimal system and extend things the way you like.

 /ayn

  On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, James Hicks wrote:
 
   To whom it may concern,
   My name is James. I'm a junior college graduate with an A.S. degree in
   Computer Applications. I took a class in UNIX about a year ago. The os we
   used was Mandrake Linux. I've learned to like Red Hat and have version 8.0
   on my home machine. I have been doing a lot of reading in magazines like
   pcmagazine and sought info online using sources like the freebsd homepage,
   zdnet, cnet, etc. I'm hearing alot of your UNIX os. I have a few questions
   about the system. First of all,  is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm asking
   whether or not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone just like
   linux is? Second, what type of file system does it use? Does it have a
   journaling one like ext3? Do UNIX systems require any kind of defrag? I was
   told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition trouble. Is
   this true and if so has it been fixed? I have also read that a lot of
   sysadmins are nervous of putting mission critical apps on a enterprise linux
   system and prefer to use freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that
   linux has? Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better
   stability than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply. Thanks
  
   James Hicks
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  
  
  
   _
   Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
   http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
  
  
   To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
  
 
  *---*
  *Peter Ulrich Kruppa*
  *  -  Wuppertal -   *
  *  Germany  *
  *---*
 
 
  To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message

 --
 andrew y ng  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://andrewng.com

 gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 9BFC594C
 fingerprint : 46a1 29ff 893a 0381 dc81  1e1e bed8 e882 9bfc 594c



*---*
*Peter Ulrich Kruppa*
*  -  Wuppertal -   *
*  Germany  *
*---*


To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread Roman Neuhauser
# [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 2003-01-10 17:23:29 +:
 On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Andrew Y Ng wrote:
 
  On  0, P. U. Kruppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   And ... if you know Linux you can easily install and setup
   FreeBSD on your machine and find out everything yourself.
 
  that's not really true, the RH installer is a lot easier to use for most ppl
  than sysinstall. for some reason I prefer sysinstall though, probably because
  I used to install NetBSD with their textbased installer and never had a
  problem with it.
 You are right. When I started playing around with Linux (it was
 Slackware at that time) the installation menu looked like
 sysinstall. So it was easy to convert to FreeBSD.
 Though, sysinstall gives you the chance to start with a lean,
 minimal system and extend things the way you like.

I think the slackware installer still looks like that. at least in
8.0 it looked like a poor man's /stand/sysinstall.

[75 lines of bottom-quote snipped. please trim the quoted material.]

-- 
If you cc me or remove the list(s) completely I'll most likely ignore
your message.see http://www.eyrie.org./~eagle/faqs/questions.html

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread BSD baby
  I was told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition
  trouble.  Is this true and if so has it been fixed?

I find the OPPOSITE to be true!

Hell if Windows isn't recognizing some ethernet card, video card, sound card,
I stick it in my FreeBSD machine where it's instantly recognized, and tells 
me what it is, so I can go back to the Windows machine and try to make it
reognize it.

I'm always AMAZED at how well FreeBSD (and OpenBSD) just recognize things
immediately: no special drivers-CD-or-floppy needed.


To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread Mike Hogsett

 I'm always AMAZED at how well FreeBSD (and OpenBSD) just recognize
 things immediately: no special drivers-CD-or-floppy needed.

The flip-side of this is that it is often very simple to lift a harddrive
with freebsd installed from one machine and place it in another and not
have the device driver nightmare that one has with Windows.

 - Mike

To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-10 Thread paul beard
I kicked this thread across to advocacy when it started, so it may 
be worth following it up over there.



--
Paul Beard
http://paulbeard.no-ip.org/movabletype/
8040 27th Ave NE Seattle WA 98115 / 206 529 8400

Genetics explains why you look like your father, and if you don't, why
you should.


To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message


Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-09 Thread P. U. Kruppa
There have been many long discussions about all your questions.

A good starting point to get all the answers you need is the
FreeBSD homepage www.freebsd.org .
And ... if you know Linux you can easily install and setup
FreeBSD on your machine and find out everything yourself.

Have fun!

Uli.


On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, James Hicks wrote:

 To whom it may concern,
 My name is James. I'm a junior college graduate with an A.S. degree in
 Computer Applications. I took a class in UNIX about a year ago. The os we
 used was Mandrake Linux. I've learned to like Red Hat and have version 8.0
 on my home machine. I have been doing a lot of reading in magazines like
 pcmagazine and sought info online using sources like the freebsd homepage,
 zdnet, cnet, etc. I'm hearing alot of your UNIX os. I have a few questions
 about the system. First of all,  is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm asking
 whether or not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone just like
 linux is? Second, what type of file system does it use? Does it have a
 journaling one like ext3? Do UNIX systems require any kind of defrag? I was
 told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition trouble. Is
 this true and if so has it been fixed? I have also read that a lot of
 sysadmins are nervous of putting mission critical apps on a enterprise linux
 system and prefer to use freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that
 linux has? Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better
 stability than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply. Thanks

 James Hicks
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]





 _
 Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
 http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message


*---*
*Peter Ulrich Kruppa*
*  -  Wuppertal -   *
*  Germany  *
*---*


To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message



Re: freebsd curiosity

2003-01-09 Thread P. U. Kruppa
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, P. U. Kruppa wrote:

 There have been many long discussions about all your questions.

 A good starting point to get all the answers you need is the
 FreeBSD homepage www.freebsd.org .
 And ... if you know Linux you can easily install and setup
 FreeBSD on your machine and find out everything yourself.
Oh ... I forgot:
I am afraid UNIX is just a registered Trademark of the OpenGroup.
If you have enough money to pay them, you may call your coffee
machine a UNIX-system.
Open software projects like FreeBSD of course don't pay.


 Have fun!

 Uli.


 On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, James Hicks wrote:

  To whom it may concern,
  My name is James. I'm a junior college graduate with an A.S. degree in
  Computer Applications. I took a class in UNIX about a year ago. The os we
  used was Mandrake Linux. I've learned to like Red Hat and have version 8.0
  on my home machine. I have been doing a lot of reading in magazines like
  pcmagazine and sought info online using sources like the freebsd homepage,
  zdnet, cnet, etc. I'm hearing alot of your UNIX os. I have a few questions
  about the system. First of all,  is freebsd a real UNIX? By that I'm asking
  whether or not there is real UNIX code in it or is it a clone just like
  linux is? Second, what type of file system does it use? Does it have a
  journaling one like ext3? Do UNIX systems require any kind of defrag? I was
  told by my UNIX instructor that freebsd had hardware recognition trouble. Is
  this true and if so has it been fixed? I have also read that a lot of
  sysadmins are nervous of putting mission critical apps on a enterprise linux
  system and prefer to use freebsd. What is the problem that I'm hearing that
  linux has? Do you believe the berkeley system to have code that has better
  stability than the GNU systems? I look forward to your reply. Thanks
 
  James Hicks
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
 
  _
  Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
  http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
 
 
  To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message
 

 *---*
 *Peter Ulrich Kruppa*
 *  -  Wuppertal -   *
 *  Germany  *
 *---*


 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message


*---*
*Peter Ulrich Kruppa*
*  -  Wuppertal -   *
*  Germany  *
*---*


To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with unsubscribe freebsd-questions in the body of the message