Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-12 Thread Ceri Davies
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 07:40:22AM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:

 While I do agree that FreeBSD does need work, the big pebble in my shoe
 right now is a journaling file system (try doing a fsck on a 1TB file
 system)

If you want journalling file system then the thing to do is to check out
-current, try out the journalling file system that it's had for the last
couple of months and send bug reports when it misbehaves.

Failing that it will eventually find its way into -stable when we assume
that the lack of bug reports means that it works ok for people, whereupon
you can all come here and bitch about how shit it is.

Your call, people.

Ceri
-- 
That must be wonderful!  I don't understand it at all.
  -- Moliere


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Description: PGP signature


Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Bill-Schoolcraft
At Thu, 11 Jan 2007 it looks like Nikolas Britton composed:

 On 1/10/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I dunno..Linux got _somewhere_ before big money came into it.
 
  Like I said..when Fbsd 2.5 was light _years_ ahead of Linux..sometime
  after that, focus was lost.
 
 
 USL v. BSDi happened.

I'm not that informed historically and was glad to get this little
tidbit a while ago when tracking down the history of Unix/Linux...

http://wiliweld.com/history.jpg

-- 
Bill Schoolcraft * http://wiliweld.com
  ~
When a fly lands on the ceiling, does
  it do a half roll or a half loop?


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread perryh
Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 10:59:20PM -0800, Jeff Mohler wrote:

  Not all of us can program..but let me ask this question.
  
  Linux is all volunteer, how did it get so far ahead?

 It isn't.  People in the know like FreeBSD as a server which
 is where it is mostly targeted - to the professional environment
 as apposed to being a playtop.

Linux sure isn't all volunteer*, but it is certainly ahead in
terms of available commercial applications, else why would
anyone have gone to the trouble of building FreeBSD's Linux
API support?

* Until Red Hat went to 'EL, all of their technical folks were
working full-time on free Linux.  It's now less than 100% -- some
effort goes into their payware versions -- but still considerably
more than 0% last I heard.  Then we have Novell supporting SuSE,
IBM supporting Yellow Dog, Intel and IBM supporting OSDL (which
employs Linus himself, among others), and that's probably not a
complete list of even the major commercial players.  On the BSD
side, we have Apple (Darwin); and maybe a few others although
none come to mind immediately.

So why is Linux ahead in commercial support?  I'm sure I don't
have a clue as to most of the factors, but the fact that Linux
has somehow managed to avoid schisms in its kernel development
can't help but be an advantage.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/11/07, Bill-Schoolcraft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At Thu, 11 Jan 2007 it looks like Nikolas Britton composed:

 On 1/10/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I dunno..Linux got _somewhere_ before big money came into it.
 
  Like I said..when Fbsd 2.5 was light _years_ ahead of Linux..sometime
  after that, focus was lost.
 

 USL v. BSDi happened.

I'm not that informed historically and was glad to get this little
tidbit a while ago when tracking down the history of Unix/Linux...

http://wiliweld.com/history.jpg



The differences between the GPL and BSD licenses come into play as
well. I'm sure it was a combination of the lawsuit, license, and
marketing at the right moments that gave Linux the huge lead it has
now... and had nothing to do with it being better.

With all the code locked up in the GPL license today it will be
impossible for the BSD's to ever out code Linux... We lost this
battle... Guerrilla tactics are needed now, but the old crusties in
the group still think we have a chance using the antiquated ones.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Howard Jones

Nikolas Britton wrote

Well that's just it... No way we could afford full rates, If we could
we would hire someone off the street to program x, y, and z to are
liking. I was talking about supporting someone who is already working
on x, y, and z because they have an itch to scratch... To help them
scratch that itch faster... What kind of funding would this type of
person need? ยง


But presumably the reason they aren't working fast enough for your 
liking is that they *are* doing it in their spare time. So anything 
beyond that is giving up the day job, which means paying as much as the 
day job did for that time... a man-hour is a man-hour, really. If you 
want to pay someone for *literally* what they are already doing, then 
I'm sure they would be happier, but it wouldn't make anything happen 
quicker, because it's still the same amount of time spent.

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Freminlins

On 10/01/07, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



A reason why you have less problems is I expect you using premium
hardware such as scsi, currently I am lucky enough to not be using
realtek lan cards although I am still having problems with intel nics.



I wouldn't term SCSI as premium. Maybe it used to be, but these days
machines are so cheap anyway. Nearly all our x86 boxes have Intel NICs. I
haven't had problems with them.

the specific nfs issues are related to mounting linux filesystems, I

am not the only one there is dozens of posts on these mailing lists
from users with the same problems, usually livelocks or panics caused
by mounting nfs filesystems on freebsd most seem to have no
resolution.



Funnily enough, I thought you were going to say you were mounting a Linux
NFS server. It is not surprising that Linux client to Linux server goes
together better than FreeBSD client to Linux server. It could of course be
the Linux NFS server implementation that is buggy, rather than the FreeBSD
client. As I've said, mounting NetApp filers I have no problems at all.

realtek isnt great hardware but is that a good reason for realtek

performing significantly worse then on linux, shouldnt it be on par?



I don't know. I haven't compared them. They are simply not high performance
network cards. I

issues of performance been worse, the biggest example is probably

mysql and uniprocessor performance, I understand with ule 2.0 mysql
performance is signficantly better so there is hope there, I would
like to see more performance from uniprocessor and the mp safe support
on nics set to disabled by default to put stability first.



Well, I agree with you on this. MySQL performance on FreeBSD is acceptable
for my purposes (not usually intensive), but it is not as good as Linux.
I've read as much about this as possible, and tried using options and thread
libraries. But this has not fixed the problem.

But, on many other things I don't see a performance problem at all. I think
it's important to give exact examples rather than saying performance has
been worse. If you said MySQL performance is worse. I've seen a
performance problem with ClamAV. Funnily enough, both ClamAV and MySQL are
threaded applications, so I'm guessing that the FreeBSD threading is the
source (cause) of the performance problem for these apps.

The installer well that comes down to using a variety of datacentres,

quite often datacentre staff are not too well trained and mainly used
to redhat and windows gui installers, so when it comes to freebsd
there is many datacentres who dont even support freebsd when I ask is
because they say it wont install, the ones that do support freebsd the
feedback I get off them is often related to both the installer been a
pain for them and hardware compatibility.



One of our Windows techies learned how to do a FreeBSD install in fifteen
minutes. If someone really cannot learn it, they shouldn't be anywhere near
datacentres. If they can't handle the FreeBSD install, I have no idea how
they would handle Solaris, which is much less friendly and definitely
belongs in  datacentres. And Solaris on non-Sun hardware has less
compatibiltiy than FreeBSD.

How much testing goes into heavy workloads such as heavy apache loads

and DDOS attacks?



I don't know. But you are free to vounteer to do this!

I expect my server to not livelock and come back to

responsiveness after such loads without having to reboot it.  Freebsd
4.x was incredibly stable under heavy ddos attacks, freebsd 5.x held
out but of course was very slow on UP, freebsd 6.x is faster but has
suffered stability problems.



I agree that the 4.x series was (is) very stable - we still have some in
use.


On the performance side get the sata and raid problems sorted for

improved hd performance tagged ququeing etc.

Is there a sort of hire a dev button on the freebsd website?



I guess you could make a contribution to the foundation.

Chris




Frem.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Freminlins

On 11/01/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



The basic reason is that a ../.. walk invalidates cached metadata, and
you end up with a pipe full of getattr's all of the time.  Freebsd-fs
has discussed this a bit, but no fixing is coming soon.  We use linux
to compile builds, we'd like to use Freebsd, but linux on Filers via
NFS is about 3x faster than the same builds on Fbsd to the same filer.
  ../.. baby.




Did you try different mount options on the FreeBSD clients. I have no idea,
but Linux may have different defaults.

Frem.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Oliver Fromme
Just a few small notes ...

Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  realtek isnt great hardware but is that a good reason for realtek
  performing significantly worse then on linux, shouldnt it be on par?

Mu old notebook (2001) has a realtek rl(4) card.  It's not
rocket fast, but it just works with FreeBSD.  There's also
an rl(4) card that came with my DSL modem, and it just
works in my FreeBSD router box, too.

When I buy a NIC for any purpose, I try to avoid realtek
cards, though.

  issues of performance been worse, the biggest example is probably
  mysql and uniprocessor performance, I understand with ule 2.0 mysql
  performance is signficantly better so there is hope there, I would
  like to see more performance from uniprocessor and the mp safe support
  on nics set to disabled by default to put stability first.

With the latest FreeBSD RELENG_6, libthr and optimized time
counter settings (TSC), I get the same mysql performance
under FreeBSD as under Linux.

  The installer well that comes down to using a variety of datacentres,
  quite often datacentre staff are not too well trained and mainly used
  to redhat and windows gui installers, so when it comes to freebsd
  there is many datacentres who dont even support freebsd when I ask is
  because they say it wont install, the ones that do support freebsd the
  feedback I get off them is often related to both the installer been a
  pain for them and hardware compatibility.

To be honest, I like the installer from DragonFly BSD.
It's easier and more intuitive to use.  However, FreeBSD's
sysinstall is _far_ better than NetBSD's or OpenBSD's
installers (at least when I last had to deal with them,
about one year ago).

Actually, as far as I know, DragonFly BSD's installer is
intended to be fairly portable, and I seem to remember
that someone was working on porting it to FreeBSD.  But
I have now idea what the status of that effort is.

  Is there a sort of hire a dev button on the freebsd website?

There's a donate button, though you can't select a
sepcific developer or area of interest that way.  If
you want to hire a dev, it might be helpful to post
a message to one of the more specialist lists (e.g.
if you want to hire someone for improving, say, the
file system code, then post to the freebsd-fs list).

If you're very lucky, someone might be interested in
your problem and even do it for free because it's an
interesting challenge, or he could use a solution for
that problem himself.  If you're even more lucky,
someone who had the same problem already did a fix
and shares it with you.

Somewhere on the web site there's also a list of
companies providing commercial support, some of which
also offer development/programming services (including
the company I work for).

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme,  secnetix GmbH  Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing
Dienstleistungen mit Schwerpunkt FreeBSD: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd
Any opinions expressed in this message may be personal to the author
and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of secnetix in any way.

It combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion different
sublanguages in one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C
with the readability of PostScript.
-- Jamie Zawinski, when asked: What's wrong with perl?
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 07:52:29PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

 On 1/10/07, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/01/07, Josef Grosch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:44:36AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
   On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
  
On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   

 ... much excised ...

 Monday
  morning quarterbacks.
 
  Josef
 
  --
  Josef Grosch   | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 6.1
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] |   Micro$oft free world  | Berkeley, Ca.
 
 
 What I think freebsd needs.
 
 1 - To fix stuff that works in linux but goes to crap in freebsd, one
 such example is NFS.
 2 - A better installer, this is probably the biggest single thing that
 puts people of freebsd, the less people using freebsd the less funds
 likely to be recieved.
 
 
 Could you articulate on point 2?... I don't really see that as a problem.

Well, for me, I find that the installer problems are that some of the 
wording for some of the choices seems unclear and sometimes you seem 
to have to go back to go forward and things like that.   I know that 
there is an intent to allow you to back up any time (as long as you 
haven't passed a point of no return like writing the disklabel) and 
make changes and add or subtract things, but still, it could make it
more clear what stage you are at, what is finished and what is next
to do, etc. 

But, as others have said, I have found it to be quite functional
and installation really quite easy outside of some of the awkwardnesses.

As for his point on funds, I am not sure, but I suppose he is
presuming that if people get turned off by the installer, then
they won't be FreeBSD enthusiasts who make donations or something.

jerry

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Re: Porting Acrobat 9 to FBSD Mozilla / Opera and OT: installer promotion (was Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?)

2007-01-11 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 11:07:04PM -0500, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote:

 I think it is about time that FREEBSD OS gets the act together  by
 integrating  all the plugins for firefox.
 
 I have been trying to make these plugins work,

Really, isnt't that a Firefox/Mozilla thing, plus possibly the
creaters/maintainers of the plugins?
FreeBSD does not create or maintain Firefox or the plugins.
FreeBSD only accepts the port[s] to be in the FreeBSD ports 
collection.  That's the way ports work.

So, maybe you should get on the horn to the Firefox people.
and maybe some people who support some of the plugins.

jerry


 not sure what more we need  countering all plugins for firefox
 
 which could make work all, right now I could only view the video in cnn.com.
 
 Others like ABC news, google video, youtube, msnbc.ocm,  and so many other
 news networks, in general anything   the videos from web browser are not
 working
 
 either it is expecting the flash player ( I configured this but does not
 seem to work) or shockwave player
 
 I found this  linux tutorial giving some insight
 http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxTutorialMozillaConfiguration.html#PLUGINS
 
 This is such a big deal, that we could not view any videos in firefox,
 
 I have compiled the mplayer, but that makes he cnn.com work not sure the
 same mplayer can be used in the place of  all those plugins out here.
 
 and then there is that big discussion I see in freebsd last month
 
 http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2006-December.txt.gz
 
 
 regards
 Dak
 
 
 
 
 On 1/10/07, Garrett Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Scott Mitchell wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 02:32:41PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
  Scott and Nikolas,
   I'll try to get the linuxplugin-wrapper port to work with Flash9
  for Linux and then I'll submit the change upstream to the maintainer. I
  too am tired of the fact that Flash is so ubiquitous, but don't have
  much choice but to get it working.
   Aw well.. when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do.. even if
  it involves hideous plugins/content :).
 
  Garrett,
 
  That would be cool - I've not tried anything newer than Flash 7,
 although I
  guess there wasn't anything newer until recently, for Linux
 anyway.  Would
  be great if you could get it to work.
 
  I've just noticed that there's a www/opera-linuxplugins port that
 appears
  to install Opera 9.10 with the necessary configuration tweaks to use
 Linux
  plugins.  It should just be a matter of installing that, then adding the
  install dirs of the various plugins to Opera's plugin path...
 
  Cheers,
 
Scott
 
 Yup, I know. I'll take a look into the opera linuxplugin wrapper port
 too so I can get both Mozilla and Opera sync'ed. I should start work
 sometime this weekend because I need to finish off another project
 (Javascript / HTML-based installer and package updater for work) before
 I move to California.
 
 Speaking of which, any Windows admins on this list want me to post the
 source for the installer / updater / package manager on sourceforge? It
 may come in handy. I don't expect anyone to use it for Unix since
 scripting in Unix is excellent already, but I'm going to automatically
 add in Windows support and maybe Mac OSX support as well, but that's
 iffy.. I'm only going to working for my IT firm for a while, so support
 would be beer-based funding, if anyone's interested :D.
 
 - -Garrett
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v2.0.1 (FreeBSD)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
 
 iD8DBQFFpa8DEnKyINQw/HARAtEGAJ4tKn0wA9VjttQK4WO3xDpwNGXJOgCfV23U
 sVzMixzcti0ss4J9nUTv9lg=
 =dOMI
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Jeff Mohler

Yes, they dont solve this whatsoever.  Its a severely broken code
issue in the attr caching mechanism.

Honest..give it a shot.  Even with very very slow ATA, local builds of
the kernel or world are faster than over 1G NFS to an F6000 series
filer, and the filer will still thrash on WAFL metadata requests for
the client, cuz everytime ../.. walks somewhere the client knows
nothing and it's all sent over the wire again.  Over and over and
over.

Thats as much as I understand about it, freebsd-fs has great detail on
this bug.

On 1/11/07, Freminlins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 11/01/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The basic reason is that a ../.. walk invalidates cached metadata, and
 you end up with a pipe full of getattr's all of the time.  Freebsd-fs
 has discussed this a bit, but no fixing is coming soon.  We use linux
 to compile builds, we'd like to use Freebsd, but linux on Filers via
 NFS is about 3x faster than the same builds on Fbsd to the same filer.
   ../.. baby.



Did you try different mount options on the FreeBSD clients. I have no idea,
but Linux may have different defaults.

Frem.


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Nuno Henriques

Oliver Iberien wrote:
At least this thread got me (desktop user, not especially technically 
sophisticated) to go make a little donation to the FreeBSD Foundation, as it 
is the one way I can help out, and show that I'm grateful for FreeBSD. 

On Wednesday 10 January 2007 08:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:



So, if you cannot contribute time and effort and your business is
so valuable, then consider contributing money - to support someone
to work in the project, at least part time.


If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
in the wrong world.

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I bought a FreeBSD Subscription 
(http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdsub6.2?id=Ja6Hth8umv_pc=70) 
and the FreeBSD Handbook Set 
(http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdhandbk3.set?id=Ja6Hth8umv_pc=187), 
and to this day, I'm still patiently awaiting for FreeBSD to support the 
590SLI Nforce chipset. Both OpenBSD and NetBSD support this chipset FYI. :)
BTW, there are no replies to my emails from freebsdmall.com. What's 
going on here? :(


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Andrew Pantyukhin

On 1/12/07, Nuno Henriques [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I bought a FreeBSD Subscription
(http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdsub6.2?id=Ja6Hth8umv_pc=70)
and the FreeBSD Handbook Set
(http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdhandbk3.set?id=Ja6Hth8umv_pc=187),
and to this day, I'm still patiently awaiting for FreeBSD to support the
590SLI Nforce chipset. Both OpenBSD and NetBSD support this chipset FYI. :)
BTW, there are no replies to my emails from freebsdmall.com. What's
going on here? :(


It's a scam! You pay for a subscription and a
handbook and all you get is (surprise!)
a subscription and a handbook.

;)
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Nuno Henriques

Andrew Pantyukhin wrote:

On 1/12/07, Nuno Henriques [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I bought a FreeBSD Subscription
(http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdsub6.2?id=Ja6Hth8umv_pc=70)
and the FreeBSD Handbook Set
(http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdhandbk3.set?id=Ja6Hth8umv_pc=187), 


and to this day, I'm still patiently awaiting for FreeBSD to support the
590SLI Nforce chipset. Both OpenBSD and NetBSD support this chipset 
FYI. :)

BTW, there are no replies to my emails from freebsdmall.com. What's
going on here? :(


It's a scam! You pay for a subscription and a
handbook and all you get is (surprise!)
a subscription and a handbook.

;)
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LOL :D

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-11 Thread Dak Ghatikachalam

Hi FreeBSD

I am looking to know how to use perform the dialup using the chatscript for
the wireless card  Ac850.

Is t this right place to ask this question.


Wow this is longest thread I have seen in my entire life about 73 people
replying about same topic and nearly he the same email. over and over.

Thanks
Dak


On 1/8/07, Jim Pazarena [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions
-
Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause


http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause

The big license mess, part 2


http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2
--
Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 01:12:46AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/10/07, Rico Secada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:01:51 -0600
 Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
   Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
   for you to get busy and contribute.
  
 
  I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
  well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
  work... so I can get real things done.
 
 So you need people to work freely, without any pay, to make things work
 for you, so you can complain when something isn't working like you
 want it to!? So you can get real things done!?
 
 If you have a business to manage, and just need this to work, made by
 people who contribute for free, maybe its time you start to pay someone!?
 

 Repost:
 I'm more then willing to pay real money to support the sub-projects
 that are of interest to me. I need to see some real progress being
 made in return though. Feel free to start working on any of the
 problems I listed. When you have something to show me I'll send some
 cash. Maybe core needs to make it easier to direct are funds to the
 sub-projects of are choice and still qualify it as a deductible
 expense.

You know how unconvincing that sounds, right?  What successful
projects have you paid the authors for after the fact, in the past?



Ok then. Start with a written plan with measurable goals and
milestones. As far as passed sub-projects I've helped fund... not many
as it's not tax deductible. And If I send money to the main project
(this is tax deductible) I have no control over the distribution of my
funds to the people or sub-projects I want to support. It's a no win
situation. Solve it and you'll solve your funding problems. How does
Linux handle these types of funding issues?
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Greg 'groggy' Lehey
[irrelevant cruft removed]

On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 23:54:02 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 17:08:45 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers
 on it promises?

 You shouldn't.  You obviously don't understand the issues.  We don't
 owe you anything.  Play an active part or go away.

 Fuck off Greg,

You've proved my assumptions.  Clearly you don't want to play an
active part.  Go away.  You may learn to grow up elsewhere, though I
wouldn't bet on it.

 Sincerely.

You've got to be joking.

Greg
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread perryh
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Maybe core needs to make it easier to direct are funds to the
 sub-projects of are choice and still qualify it as a deductible
 expense.

For accounting/tax purposes, aren't salary and benefits just as
deductible as contributions?  Hire someone qualified as your
own full- or part-time employee, and assign them to work on the
projects that you want to support.  As just one example, that's
effectively Red Hat's entire operation AFAIK.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[irrelevant cruft removed]

On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 23:54:02 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 17:08:45 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers
 on it promises?

 You shouldn't.  You obviously don't understand the issues.  We don't
 owe you anything.  Play an active part or go away.

 Fuck off Greg,

You've proved my assumptions.  Clearly you don't want to play an
active part.  Go away.  You may learn to grow up elsewhere, though I
wouldn't bet on it.

 Sincerely.

You've got to be joking.



I'm going to answer why I said what I said above with a parallel
example that hopefully points out one of the problems with some,
conservative, members of the FreeBSD community...

Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

It's a simple question, isn't it? We all know that amputated legs do
not spontaneously regenerate in response to prayer. Amputees get no
miracles from God. If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit
that it's an interesting question:

- On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs miracles.

- On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees
when they pray for miracles.

How do you deal with this discrepancy? As an intelligent Christian,
you have to deal with it, because it makes no sense. In order to
handle it, notice that you have to create some kind of
rationalization. You have to invent an excuse on God's behalf to
explain this strange fact of life. You might say: Well God must have
some kind of special plan for amputees. So you invent your excuse,
whatever it is, and then you stop thinking about it because it is
uncomfortable.

Here's another example. As a Christian, you believe that God cares
about you and answers your prayers. So the second question is: Why are
there so many starving people in our world?

Look out at are world and notice that millions of children are dieing
of starvation, It really is horrific. Why would God be worried about
you getting a raise, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of
these desperate, innocent little children? It really doesn't make any
sense, does it? Why would a loving god do this? To explain it, you
have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God. Like:
God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine,
mysterious reason. Then you push it out of your mind because it
absolutely does not fit with your view of a loving, caring God.

Do you see what has happened here? When we assume that God exist, the
answers to these questions make absolutely no sense. But if we assume
that God is imaginary, our world makes complete sense. It's
interesting, isn't it? Actually, it's more than interesting. It is
incredibly important. Our world only makes sense when we understand
that God is imaginary. This is how intelligent, rational people know
that God is imaginary. When you use your brain, and when you think
logically about your religious faith, you can reach only one possible
conclusion... The god that you have heard about since you were an
infant is completely imaginary. You have to willfully discard
rationality, and accept hundreds of bizarre rationalizations to
believe in your god.

Why should you care? What difference does it make if people want to
believe in a god, even if he is imaginary? It matters because people
who believe in imaginary beings are delusional. It matters because
people who talk to imaginary beings are delusional. It matters because
people who believe in imaginary superstitions like prayer are
delusional. It's that simple, and that obvious. Your religious beliefs
hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are
delusional.

As Carl Sagan once said: It is far better to grasp the Universe as it
really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and
reassuring.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Maybe core needs to make it easier to direct are funds to the
 sub-projects of are choice and still qualify it as a deductible
 expense.

For accounting/tax purposes, aren't salary and benefits just as
deductible as contributions?  Hire someone qualified as your
own full- or part-time employee, and assign them to work on the
projects that you want to support.  As just one example, that's
effectively Red Hat's entire operation AFAIK.



Interesting... I'm not sure the owner would go for it though. Maybe a
1099 contractor. Would anyone in the group at large be interested in
arrangements such as this? What kind of money (rate) would you expect
if you got payed to work on stuff your already working on in your
spare time?
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread DAve

Jeff Mohler wrote:

Fbsd needs SAN support before it can cope with
virtualization..virtualization requires a lot of disk..spindles..and
FCP/iSCSI is a great way to drive this condensation.

I mean..when you have to read this list, and see people wonder which
end of a SAN connection owns the responsibility for fsck'ing a SAN
filesystem, I wonder how quickly I can bone up on Linux.


Sorry for wasting your time. I'll neither post nor respond on the iSCSI 
thread any longer.


DAve
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

 On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
 Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
 for you to get busy and contribute.
 
 
 I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
 well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
 work... so I can get real things done.

Yah, well the people doing it are also busy and working at things
which are supposed to make them a living.   Most make their
FreeBSD contribution work on the side - in addition to their
paying jobs although some are in the fortunate position of working
for someone who recognizes it as also contributing to their
productivity on the job.

There are many ways to contribute.  Not all are writing code.
Some are in documentation and in other services.   And, although
it is a volunteer project, it does require money to support such 
things as servers and test machines and network access.

So, if you cannot contribute time and effort and your business is
so valuable, then consider contributing money - to support someone
to work in the project, at least part time.

If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
in the wrong world.

jerry

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 10:59:20PM -0800, Jeff Mohler wrote:

 Not all of us can program..but let me ask this question.
 
 Linux is all volunteer, how did it get so far ahead?

It isn't.  People in the know like FreeBSD as a server which
is where it is mostly targeted - to the professional environment
as apposed to being a playtop.

jerry

 
 Granted I'll take ports over RPM's and such any day, but..ports hasnt
 sucked up all of the Fbsd oxygen by itself in the last handful of
 years.
 
 On 1/9/07, Rico Secada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:01:51 -0600
 Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
   Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
   for you to get busy and contribute.
  
 
  I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
  well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
  work... so I can get real things done.
 
 So you need people to work freely, without any pay, to make things work
 for you, so you can complain when something isn't working like you
 want it to!? So you can get real things done!?
 
 If you have a business to manage, and just need this to work, made by
 people who contribute for free, maybe its time you start to pay someone!?
 
 Now just shut up and go away!!!
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 01:12:46AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

 On 1/10/07, Rico Secada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:01:51 -0600
 Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
   Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
   for you to get busy and contribute.
  
 
  I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
  well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
  work... so I can get real things done.
 
 So you need people to work freely, without any pay, to make things work
 for you, so you can complain when something isn't working like you
 want it to!? So you can get real things done!?
 
 If you have a business to manage, and just need this to work, made by
 people who contribute for free, maybe its time you start to pay someone!?
 
 
 Repost:
 I'm more then willing to pay real money to support the sub-projects
 that are of interest to me. I need to see some real progress being
 made in return though. Feel free to start working on any of the
 problems I listed. When you have something to show me I'll send some
 cash. Maybe core needs to make it easier to direct are funds to the
 sub-projects of are choice and still qualify it as a deductible
 expense.

Then maybe you need to spend that money getting something you
need done.   Hire someone or assign one of your better employees
to work part of their time on some aspect that is important to see done.

Some of the people who work on the FreeBSD project may do contract
work, but the project in itself, in general does not do contract work.  
It does not work from a list of demands from customers, but from
things that the people who are both using it and working on it take
the time and effort to get done - primarily because they want/need
to have that thing done.

This leave you lots of room to do something positive.

jerry




 
 Now just shut up and go away!!!
 
 
 No.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Josef Grosch
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 09:08:03PM -0800, Jeff Mohler wrote:
 Fbsd needs SAN support before it can cope with
 virtualization..virtualization requires a lot of disk..spindles..and
 FCP/iSCSI is a great way to drive this condensation.
 
 I mean..when you have to read this list, and see people wonder which
 end of a SAN connection owns the responsibility for fsck'ing a SAN
 filesystem, I wonder how quickly I can bone up on Linux.
 
 In ten years at Network Appliance..wanna know exactly how many FreeBSD
 host installs ive seen besides Yahoo?
 
 2.
 
 How many -non- Linux SAN configurations?  Probly 80% of all SAN I see
 and work with are Linux based.
 
 Fbsd NFS client performance is 1/3'd that of a tuned linux box, can
 you say ../..?  If you can, you know what its like to never have a
 valid directory attr cache on your mounts.  (ick)  Automount...dont
 even go there.
 
 Im in this for the long haul..I like Fbsd, and as long s lynx and
 apache still work on it, im happy.  As for the future..I just dont see
 much serious future there unless it grows up.
 
 Rememer when Linux couldnt do _crap_ and Fbsd 2.5 was the bomb?  I
 do...I want like to see that again.


While I do agree that FreeBSD does need work, the big pebble in my shoe
right now is a journaling file system (try doing a fsck on a 1TB file
system), FreeBSD does do SAN right now. At work (Juniper Networks), I have
a FreeBSD 6.1-p10 system with a Qlogic card talking to a Hitachi SAN
through a Brocade fiber switch. Works like a charm. We have done tests
where we compared compiling all of our product on my SAN setup with
compiling on local SCSI disk in a RAID 10. The SAN is only 6% to 10%
slower. Considering how much easier it is to manage a farm of servers
talking to a SAN instead of each server having it's own disk array, a 10%
hit in disk performance is considered acceptable.

I have a meeting setup for Thursday to talk to your people, Network
Appliance, about SAN attaching to our new 6030 filers. The answer we keep
getting, and I'm sure this is right, is this should work like a charm. 

SAN on FreeBSD does work. The only problems we have is 1) There is only 1
card that really works. We tried LSI cards but they were dodgy 2) can't
seem to get dual channel working. 


Josef

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Josef Grosch
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:44:36AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 
  On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
  Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
  for you to get busy and contribute.
  
  
  I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
  well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
  work... so I can get real things done.
 
 Yah, well the people doing it are also busy and working at things
 which are supposed to make them a living.   Most make their
 FreeBSD contribution work on the side - in addition to their
 paying jobs although some are in the fortunate position of working
 for someone who recognizes it as also contributing to their
 productivity on the job.
 
 There are many ways to contribute.  Not all are writing code.
 Some are in documentation and in other services.   And, although
 it is a volunteer project, it does require money to support such 
 things as servers and test machines and network access.
 
 So, if you cannot contribute time and effort and your business is
 so valuable, then consider contributing money - to support someone
 to work in the project, at least part time.
 
 If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
 in the wrong world.


Hear, hear.

Nikolas, there are many things that FreeBSD need, a large number of them do
not require programming. As a Christian here is a saying that I'm sure you
are familiar with, It's better to light one candle than to curse the
darkness. So brother Nikolas, what candles have you lit today? You
certainly have produced a lot of smoke.

One of the things you could have done instead of wasting your and our time
on this thrash is to sit down a write a detailed description of some of the
things you find lacking in FreeBSD. By detailed I mean a series of bullet
points that describe what is the problem, what you tried, what your setup
was, OS version, hardware configuration, etc. This would be a whole lot
more helpful than standing on a street corner and screaming, FreeBSD is
FUCKED! Linux is taking over!

Many hands make lite work. Are you going to lend a hand or are you going to
stand on the sidelines and tell us how we are screwing up. If it is going
to be the latter please go away, we have more than our fair share of Monday
morning quarterbacks.



Josef

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Robert Huff

Nikolas Britton writes:

   For accounting/tax purposes, aren't salary and benefits just as
   deductible as contributions?  Hire someone qualified as your
   own full- or part-time employee, and assign them to work on the
   projects that you want to support.  As just one example, that's
   effectively Red Hat's entire operation AFAIK.
  
  Interesting... I'm not sure the owner would go for it
  though. Maybe a 1099 contractor. Would anyone in the group at
  large be interested in arrangements such as this?

Consider looking up the developers who most recently worked on
the projects of interest; if they're not available, perhaps they
can recommend someone.

  What kind of money (rate) would you expect if you got payed to
  work on stuff your already working on in your spare time?

Unless you have a fairy godparent, expect to pay standard
commercial rates based on the task and the qualifications of the
programer.


Robert Huff
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 04:35:12AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

 On 1/10/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [irrelevant cruft removed]
 
 On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 23:54:02 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
  On 1/9/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 17:08:45 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
  Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers
  on it promises?
 
  You shouldn't.  You obviously don't understand the issues.  We don't
  owe you anything.  Play an active part or go away.
 
  Fuck off Greg,
 
 You've proved my assumptions.  Clearly you don't want to play an
 active part.  Go away.  You may learn to grow up elsewhere, though I
 wouldn't bet on it.
 
  Sincerely.
 
 You've got to be joking.
 
 
 I'm going to answer why I said what I said above with a parallel
 example that hopefully points out one of the problems with some,
 conservative, members of the FreeBSD community...
 
 Why Won't God Heal Amputees?

Sorry for top posting this part of the rant, but it works out easier.

This is first of all, irrelevant to the topic, just a private rant.
Second, it completely either misrepresents or misunderstands the
Christian concept of God or a god and of prayer - although, I admit, 
some people do cherish such immature ways of thinking/believing.

Even if it was complete and accurate, it still does not negate your 
responsibility for making whatever contribution you can toward the 
project you use so freely and claim that you need and love and that 
needs some serious work done.   Nothing in prayer relieves a person
of personal responsibility.

jerry

 
 It's a simple question, isn't it? We all know that amputated legs do
 not spontaneously regenerate in response to prayer. Amputees get no
 miracles from God. If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit
 that it's an interesting question:
 
 - On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs 
 miracles.
 
 - On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees
 when they pray for miracles.
 
 How do you deal with this discrepancy? As an intelligent Christian,
 you have to deal with it, because it makes no sense. In order to
 handle it, notice that you have to create some kind of
 rationalization. You have to invent an excuse on God's behalf to
 explain this strange fact of life. You might say: Well God must have
 some kind of special plan for amputees. So you invent your excuse,
 whatever it is, and then you stop thinking about it because it is
 uncomfortable.
 
 Here's another example. As a Christian, you believe that God cares
 about you and answers your prayers. So the second question is: Why are
 there so many starving people in our world?
 
 Look out at are world and notice that millions of children are dieing
 of starvation, It really is horrific. Why would God be worried about
 you getting a raise, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of
 these desperate, innocent little children? It really doesn't make any
 sense, does it? Why would a loving god do this? To explain it, you
 have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God. Like:
 God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine,
 mysterious reason. Then you push it out of your mind because it
 absolutely does not fit with your view of a loving, caring God.
 
 Do you see what has happened here? When we assume that God exist, the
 answers to these questions make absolutely no sense. But if we assume
 that God is imaginary, our world makes complete sense. It's
 interesting, isn't it? Actually, it's more than interesting. It is
 incredibly important. Our world only makes sense when we understand
 that God is imaginary. This is how intelligent, rational people know
 that God is imaginary. When you use your brain, and when you think
 logically about your religious faith, you can reach only one possible
 conclusion... The god that you have heard about since you were an
 infant is completely imaginary. You have to willfully discard
 rationality, and accept hundreds of bizarre rationalizations to
 believe in your god.
 
 Why should you care? What difference does it make if people want to
 believe in a god, even if he is imaginary? It matters because people
 who believe in imaginary beings are delusional. It matters because
 people who talk to imaginary beings are delusional. It matters because
 people who believe in imaginary superstitions like prayer are
 delusional. It's that simple, and that obvious. Your religious beliefs
 hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are
 delusional.
 
 As Carl Sagan once said: It is far better to grasp the Universe as it
 really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and
 reassuring.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 08:17:21AM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:

 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:44:36AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
  
   On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
   Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
   for you to get busy and contribute.
   
   I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
   well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
   work... so I can get real things done.
  
  There are many ways to contribute.  Not all are writing code.
  Some are in documentation and in other services.   And, although
  it is a volunteer project, it does require money to support such 
  things as servers and test machines and network access.
  
  If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
  in the wrong world.
 
 Hear, hear.
 
 Nikolas, there are many things that FreeBSD need, a large number of them do
 not require programming. As a Christian here is a saying that I'm sure you
 are familiar with, It's better to light one candle than to curse the
 darkness. So brother Nikolas, what candles have you lit today? You
 certainly have produced a lot of smoke.
 
 One of the things you could have done instead of wasting your and our time
 on this thrash is to sit down a write a detailed description of some of the
 things you find lacking in FreeBSD. By detailed I mean a series of bullet
 points that describe what is the problem, what you tried, what your setup
 was, OS version, hardware configuration, etc. 

Yes, for sure.   Making a _well documented_ list of things that
could be improved in or added to FreeBSD is another good way of
contributing.   Just remember that not everyone may agree with
your list of needs.  Some of those items may be seen by others
as a step in the wrong direction, regardless of how well documented.
But, at least a thorough description of a perceived need will be
a worthy contribution and a starting point for serious discussion.
Whining about people not doing your work for you for free will not
lead to serious useful discussion.

jerry

   This would be a whole lot
 more helpful than standing on a street corner and screaming, FreeBSD is
 FUCKED! Linux is taking over!
 
 Many hands make lite work. Are you going to lend a hand or are you going to
 stand on the sidelines and tell us how we are screwing up. If it is going
 to be the latter please go away, we have more than our fair share of Monday
 morning quarterbacks.
 
 
 
 Josef
 
 -- 
 Josef Grosch   | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 6.1
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |   Micro$oft free world  | Berkeley, Ca.


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Chris

On 10/01/07, Josef Grosch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:44:36AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

  On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
  Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
  for you to get busy and contribute.
  
 
  I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
  well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
  work... so I can get real things done.

 Yah, well the people doing it are also busy and working at things
 which are supposed to make them a living.   Most make their
 FreeBSD contribution work on the side - in addition to their
 paying jobs although some are in the fortunate position of working
 for someone who recognizes it as also contributing to their
 productivity on the job.

 There are many ways to contribute.  Not all are writing code.
 Some are in documentation and in other services.   And, although
 it is a volunteer project, it does require money to support such
 things as servers and test machines and network access.

 So, if you cannot contribute time and effort and your business is
 so valuable, then consider contributing money - to support someone
 to work in the project, at least part time.

 If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
 in the wrong world.


Hear, hear.

Nikolas, there are many things that FreeBSD need, a large number of them do
not require programming. As a Christian here is a saying that I'm sure you
are familiar with, It's better to light one candle than to curse the
darkness. So brother Nikolas, what candles have you lit today? You
certainly have produced a lot of smoke.

One of the things you could have done instead of wasting your and our time
on this thrash is to sit down a write a detailed description of some of the
things you find lacking in FreeBSD. By detailed I mean a series of bullet
points that describe what is the problem, what you tried, what your setup
was, OS version, hardware configuration, etc. This would be a whole lot
more helpful than standing on a street corner and screaming, FreeBSD is
FUCKED! Linux is taking over!

Many hands make lite work. Are you going to lend a hand or are you going to
stand on the sidelines and tell us how we are screwing up. If it is going
to be the latter please go away, we have more than our fair share of Monday
morning quarterbacks.



Josef

--
Josef Grosch   | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 6.1
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |   Micro$oft free world  | Berkeley, Ca.





What I think freebsd needs.

1 - To fix stuff that works in linux but goes to crap in freebsd, one
such example is NFS.
2 - A better installer, this is probably the biggest single thing that
puts people of freebsd, the less people using freebsd the less funds
likely to be recieved.
3 - Better hardware compatability, freebsd has poor hardware support,
worst then both linux and windows, one such example is realtek cards
have no problems in windows and linux but do in freebsd, sata support
is very poor as well.  Often when people say anything the response is
go out and buy premium hardware.
4 - Better attitude to bug fixing, not always possible to provide
backtraces as such from remote servers but can tell the devs how to
repeat problem so they can do on their own local machines.
5 - journaling filesystem.

Ultimately I think freebsd is in real danger of losing its stable tag,
more and more things are not stable on freebsd as they get ignored,
some of the network drivers appear to be poorly maintained, and its
lagging behind in the performance charts.  All this considering it
used to be ahead in the game is a sad state of affairs.

Would I pay for freebsd? yes but in the right circumstances I fully
understand its voluntary work in many cases but the worst it gets the
less inclined people will be to pay.

Chris
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Garrett Cooper

Jerry McAllister wrote:

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 08:17:21AM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:

  

On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:44:36AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:


On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

  

On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
for you to get busy and contribute.
  

I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
work... so I can get real things done.


There are many ways to contribute.  Not all are writing code.
Some are in documentation and in other services.   And, although
it is a volunteer project, it does require money to support such 
things as servers and test machines and network access.


If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
in the wrong world.
  

Hear, hear.

Nikolas, there are many things that FreeBSD need, a large number of them do
not require programming. As a Christian here is a saying that I'm sure you
are familiar with, It's better to light one candle than to curse the
darkness. So brother Nikolas, what candles have you lit today? You
certainly have produced a lot of smoke.

One of the things you could have done instead of wasting your and our time
on this thrash is to sit down a write a detailed description of some of the
things you find lacking in FreeBSD. By detailed I mean a series of bullet
points that describe what is the problem, what you tried, what your setup
was, OS version, hardware configuration, etc. 



Yes, for sure.   Making a _well documented_ list of things that
could be improved in or added to FreeBSD is another good way of
contributing.   Just remember that not everyone may agree with
your list of needs.  Some of those items may be seen by others
as a step in the wrong direction, regardless of how well documented.
But, at least a thorough description of a perceived need will be
a worthy contribution and a starting point for serious discussion.
Whining about people not doing your work for you for free will not
lead to serious useful discussion.

jerry

  

  This would be a whole lot
more helpful than standing on a street corner and screaming, FreeBSD is
FUCKED! Linux is taking over!
As for the comments made in regard to Linux, I think it's just because 
of the widespread use in various distros and the range of use for 
individuals--from newbies to tech savvy admins / hackers. FreeBSD is 
mainly designed for those who are more into diving into manuals (which 
is a plus I've noticed over Linux when I started using FreeBSD 3 years ago).


FreeBSD has improved, but as many have mentioned there is a long way to 
go with many things. Making a centralized list of things which should be 
changed and submitting it to the FreeBSD folks would be helpful. 
Furthermore, some of the goals/milestones can be made available for 
several projects, one of which is Google's Summer of Code project (this 
will be the third year running). Various changes were made by 
volunteers and by having a list of things which should be modified, 
FreeBSD can be better made into a finalized product.


So, instead of fighting one another--personally and otherwise, why don't 
we combine our thinking in order to make a good OS even better :)?


Cheers,
-Garrett
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Vince
havent much to contribute here but...
 5 - journaling filesystem.
 
This exists in current, patches are available for 6-stable. I've not
stress tested it too much but its been nicely stable for me so far on
6-stable (non root partition as i havent yet had time to set that up)
see
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2006-November/030803.html
for links.


Vince

 Ultimately I think freebsd is in real danger of losing its stable tag,
 more and more things are not stable on freebsd as they get ignored,
 some of the network drivers appear to be poorly maintained, and its
 lagging behind in the performance charts.  All this considering it
 used to be ahead in the game is a sad state of affairs.
 
 Would I pay for freebsd? yes but in the right circumstances I fully
 understand its voluntary work in many cases but the worst it gets the
 less inclined people will be to pay.
 
 Chris
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Giorgos Keramidas
On 2007-01-10 00:48, Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 05:07:08PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 Why then?

 Various administrative delays, mostly.  e.g. the main ftp distribution
 server had hardware failure for a few weeks.

 Shit happens and we did just change out the core team, specifically
 the release engineering team... so that's understandable...

You are mixing the Core team with the Release Engineering team.  They
are two separate entities, even though they work closely together.

 I guess my comment was mainly targeted at the general state of affairs
 for the last two years.

By following the thread, I can see that you have been having serious
problems with your FreeBSD installations.  It is understandable that a fair
amount of aggravation has resulted from the problems you are describing,
and it is more than understandable that you feel Someone Ought to(TM) fix
these problems.

Several of the posted messages have come out as very wrong though, not
because you don't have a point, but because it's hard to discern from what
you write what the point really *is*.

You wrote, for example, that 6.2-RELEASE has been delayed, and assumed that
this was because of the Gentoo/FreeBSD blog post you have read.  There _is_
a reason why 6.2-RELEASE has been delayed, but it is *not* related to
Gentoo/FreeBSD -- as you already know by now.

The rest of the bullet items you posted about (Xen Dom0 support; SATA RAID
driver problems; better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo
systems; ZFS support; better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays;
speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff; better SMP support; GIANT lock in RAID/LAN
drivers) are not really *blockers* for pushing out 6.2-RELEASE, right?

There are literally hundreds of improvements going in the HEAD of the CVS
tree every month, but not all of them can be easily backported to the
RELENG_6 branch.  As you know (being a long-time FreeBSD user), the
developer team tries to merge changes from HEAD to the STABLE branch, but
the team tries to keep a pretty thin balance between two fairly divergent
lines of development:

* Merging useful and cool new stuff, but, at the same time,

* Avoid breaking backwards compatibility on STABLE branches

A lot of the bullet items you have mentioned have been the subject of a
great deal of work, and some of them are giving extremely fruitful results
in the HEAD branch of CVS (what is going to become 7.0-RELEASE).  Not all
of them _can_ be ported to RELENG_6 without breaking API and ABI
compatibility in one or more ways though.

Even so, the 6.2-RELEASE includes a lot of improvements from 6.1.

More improvements, are scheduled for later releases.  For example, some of
the areas of 7.0-CURRENT which have seen an outstanding set of fixes, speed
improvements, locking  SMP support improvements, and feature enhancements
are:

  * ZFS support (feature).  Pawel Jakub Dawidek has successfully ported ZFS
to FreeBSD, and he delivered an imporessive demo at EuroBSD Con 2006,
in November 2006.

  * FreeBSD 7.0-CURRENT includes already an astounding set of locking and
SMP improvements over STABLE, and it performs quite nicely on some of
the Intel Core 2 Duo systems which I have tested.

  * The network stack of 7.0-CURRENT has been improved even more, with many
drivers being updated to support a larger array of NIC hardware, with
performance and throughput improvements, and a lot more changes which I
can't even remember off-hand.

Projects in progress include:

  * Support for Xen.

  * Netperf: The netperf team targets performance monitoring and throughput
performance analyses of FreeBSD.  The project maintains parts of the
official FreeBSD web site, at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/netperf/,
where you can find out more about what the team is doing, get progress
reports, etc.

  * Java on FreeBSD, http://www.freebsd.org/java/index.html

The FreeBSD Java project and the FreeBSD Foundation have been working
on delivering Java support on FreeBSD for a long time.  The FreeBSD
Foundation has successfully negotiated a license with Sun, and they can
now deliver binary Java distributions[1].  Patch sets for Java 1.5.X
have been announced too.

[1] http://www.freebsd.org/java/newsflash.html

The active projects are al listed at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/ and
that list isn't even complete!  So the comment by Kris Kennaway below is
the best way to phrase it, IMHO:

 Some of these are already there, some are in progress, etc.
 
 I haven't been keeping track lately but that's good if true. Will see
 what happens when I upgrade my servers.

Great! :)

 I am unhappy but I care too much about FreeBSD to just up and leave, it
 may be time for a sabbatical though...

Or, alternatively, it may be the time to sit down and think which parts of
FreeBSD you have an interest in, and really 

Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Freminlins

On 10/01/07, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



What I think freebsd needs.

1 - To fix stuff that works in linux but goes to crap in freebsd, one
such example is NFS.



I don't actually have a problem with FreeBSD and NFS. This is using about
20+ clients and 2 NetApp filers. What problem are you having, rather than
just goes to crap?

2 - A better installer, this is probably the biggest single thing that

puts people of freebsd, the less people using freebsd the less funds
likely to be recieved.



Do you really think this puts people off? How do you know this? I find that
FreeBSD has the fastest installer for a complete OS. It may not look very
pretty, but it's logical and I can use it over serial console.

3 - Better hardware compatability, freebsd has poor hardware support,

worst then both linux and windows, one such example is realtek cards
have no problems in windows and linux but do in freebsd, sata support
is very poor as well.  Often when people say anything the response is
go out and buy premium hardware.



Well, everything has worse hardware support than Windows, so that's a
pointless comparison. Linux has more hardware support, this is true. But
some of this support is very bad. I have only had one box out of about 100
over the years which I couldn't make work to my liking with FreeBSD. Then I
went to Linux. I use Linux on a couple of large storage systems deliberately
because of the lack of a journalling FS in FreeBSD.

Realtek network cards, I am afraid to say, are cheap and nasty. Some, at
least, do work in FreeBSD. But I wouldn't consider them professional cards
for use with any OS. They are OK for home users with low end network needs.
Nothing mor than that.

SATA support was definitely a bid dodgy the last time I looked (about a
year), but I nearly always use SCSI so it's not usually a problem.

4 - Better attitude to bug fixing, not always possible to provide

backtraces as such from remote servers but can tell the devs how to
repeat problem so they can do on their own local machines.



That's asking a tiny bit too much IMHO. To get the best help you have to
offer the best information yourself. You are expecting someone else to
repeat your problems on hardware which they not have.

5 - journaling filesystem.


Yes, definitely this is needed and long overdue.

Ultimately I think freebsd is in real danger of losing its stable tag,

more and more things are not stable on freebsd as they get ignored,
some of the network drivers appear to be poorly maintained, and its
lagging behind in the performance charts.  All this considering it
used to be ahead in the game is a sad state of affairs.

Would I pay for freebsd? yes but in the right circumstances I fully
understand its voluntary work in many cases but the worst it gets the
less inclined people will be to pay.



The simple truth is, of course, that Linux has a large number of fully paid
developers. RedHat, for example, employs numerous programmers who fix bugs,
and these fixes end up in free distros of Linux.

Chris





Frem.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Garrett Cooper
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Scott Mitchell wrote:
 On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 10:54:11PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Garrett Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Don't know about some of the items, but...
-Flash support with Mozilla products is being done through Mozilla's
 ActionScript Engine:
 http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200611/110706Mozilla.html.
 So, I expect the latest version of Adobe's Flash Player to be supported
 on all Unix platforms to some extent in the future. Sound support will
 be interesting though.
 But I use Opera?? And It needs to work with youtube, without crashing
 and without install headaches. 'cd /usr/ports/www/flash; make install
 clean; exit;' then open browser to youtube.com and go. No library
 shuffle or libmap configuring.
 
 I'm not sure how it's FreeBSD's problem that Flash doesn't work in Opera,
 but anyway - the latest Opera release (9.10, in ports now) works very well
 with the Linux Flash 7 plugin, or at least the beta I tried a few weeks ago
 did, and I assume they didn't break it since.  YouTube worked fine, apart
 from some loss of sync between the audio  video, but that is apparently
 not a FreeBSD-specific problem.
 
 There was a thread about this on -questions about a month ago explaining
 what was needed to make it work, although the real 9.10 release, or the
 port, might make this easier.
 
 Cheers,
 
   Scott

Scott and Nikolas,
I'll try to get the linuxplugin-wrapper port to work with Flash9
for Linux and then I'll submit the change upstream to the maintainer. I
too am tired of the fact that Flash is so ubiquitous, but don't have
much choice but to get it working.
Aw well.. when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do.. even if
it involves hideous plugins/content :).
- -Garrett
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.1 (FreeBSD)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Chris

On 10/01/07, Freminlins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On 10/01/07, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What I think freebsd needs.

 1 - To fix stuff that works in linux but goes to crap in freebsd, one
 such example is NFS.

I don't actually have a problem with FreeBSD and NFS. This is using about
20+ clients and 2 NetApp filers. What problem are you having, rather than
just goes to crap?

 2 - A better installer, this is probably the biggest single thing that
 puts people of freebsd, the less people using freebsd the less funds
 likely to be recieved.

 Do you really think this puts people off? How do you know this? I find that
FreeBSD has the fastest installer for a complete OS. It may not look very
pretty, but it's logical and I can use it over serial console.

 3 - Better hardware compatability, freebsd has poor hardware support,
 worst then both linux and windows, one such example is realtek cards
 have no problems in windows and linux but do in freebsd, sata support
 is very poor as well.  Often when people say anything the response is
 go out and buy premium hardware.

Well, everything has worse hardware support than Windows, so that's a
pointless comparison. Linux has more hardware support, this is true. But
some of this support is very bad. I have only had one box out of about 100
over the years which I couldn't make work to my liking with FreeBSD. Then I
went to Linux. I use Linux on a couple of large storage systems deliberately
because of the lack of a journalling FS in FreeBSD.

Realtek network cards, I am afraid to say, are cheap and nasty. Some, at
least, do work in FreeBSD. But I wouldn't consider them professional cards
for use with any OS. They are OK for home users with low end network needs.
Nothing mor than that.

SATA support was definitely a bid dodgy the last time I looked (about a
year), but I nearly always use SCSI so it's not usually a problem.

 4 - Better attitude to bug fixing, not always possible to provide
 backtraces as such from remote servers but can tell the devs how to
 repeat problem so they can do on their own local machines.

That's asking a tiny bit too much IMHO. To get the best help you have to
offer the best information yourself. You are expecting someone else to
repeat your problems on hardware which they not have.

 5 - journaling filesystem.

Yes, definitely this is needed and long overdue.

 Ultimately I think freebsd is in real danger of losing its stable tag,
 more and more things are not stable on freebsd as they get ignored,
 some of the network drivers appear to be poorly maintained, and its
 lagging behind in the performance charts.  All this considering it
 used to be ahead in the game is a sad state of affairs.

 Would I pay for freebsd? yes but in the right circumstances I fully
 understand its voluntary work in many cases but the worst it gets the
 less inclined people will be to pay.

The simple truth is, of course, that Linux has a large number of fully paid
developers. RedHat, for example, employs numerous programmers who fix bugs,
and these fixes end up in free distros of Linux.

 Chris



Frem.


A reason why you have less problems is I expect you using premium
hardware such as scsi, currently I am lucky enough to not be using
realtek lan cards although I am still having problems with intel nics.

the specific nfs issues are related to mounting linux filesystems, I
am not the only one there is dozens of posts on these mailing lists
from users with the same problems, usually livelocks or panics caused
by mounting nfs filesystems on freebsd most seem to have no
resolution.

realtek isnt great hardware but is that a good reason for realtek
performing significantly worse then on linux, shouldnt it be on par?

issues of performance been worse, the biggest example is probably
mysql and uniprocessor performance, I understand with ule 2.0 mysql
performance is signficantly better so there is hope there, I would
like to see more performance from uniprocessor and the mp safe support
on nics set to disabled by default to put stability first.

The installer well that comes down to using a variety of datacentres,
quite often datacentre staff are not too well trained and mainly used
to redhat and windows gui installers, so when it comes to freebsd
there is many datacentres who dont even support freebsd when I ask is
because they say it wont install, the ones that do support freebsd the
feedback I get off them is often related to both the installer been a
pain for them and hardware compatibility.

How much testing goes into heavy workloads such as heavy apache loads
and DDOS attacks?  I expect my server to not livelock and come back to
responsiveness after such loads without having to reboot it.  Freebsd
4.x was incredibly stable under heavy ddos attacks, freebsd 5.x held
out but of course was very slow on UP, freebsd 6.x is faster but has
suffered stability problems.

On the performance side get the sata and raid problems sorted for
improved hd performance 

Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Scott Mitchell
On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 02:32:41PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
 
 Scott and Nikolas,
   I'll try to get the linuxplugin-wrapper port to work with Flash9
 for Linux and then I'll submit the change upstream to the maintainer. I
 too am tired of the fact that Flash is so ubiquitous, but don't have
 much choice but to get it working.
   Aw well.. when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do.. even if
 it involves hideous plugins/content :).

Garrett,

That would be cool - I've not tried anything newer than Flash 7, although I
guess there wasn't anything newer until recently, for Linux anyway.  Would
be great if you could get it to work.

I've just noticed that there's a www/opera-linuxplugins port that appears
to install Opera 9.10 with the necessary configuration tweaks to use Linux
plugins.  It should just be a matter of installing that, then adding the
install dirs of the various plugins to Opera's plugin path...

Cheers,

Scott

-- 
===
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Cambridge, England   | 0x54B171B9 |  don't get sucked into jet engines
scott at fishballoon.org | 0xAA775B8B |  -- Anon
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Scott Mitchell
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 10:54:11PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Garrett Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Don't know about some of the items, but...
 -Flash support with Mozilla products is being done through Mozilla's
 ActionScript Engine:
 http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200611/110706Mozilla.html.
 So, I expect the latest version of Adobe's Flash Player to be supported
 on all Unix platforms to some extent in the future. Sound support will
 be interesting though.
 
 But I use Opera?? And It needs to work with youtube, without crashing
 and without install headaches. 'cd /usr/ports/www/flash; make install
 clean; exit;' then open browser to youtube.com and go. No library
 shuffle or libmap configuring.

I'm not sure how it's FreeBSD's problem that Flash doesn't work in Opera,
but anyway - the latest Opera release (9.10, in ports now) works very well
with the Linux Flash 7 plugin, or at least the beta I tried a few weeks ago
did, and I assume they didn't break it since.  YouTube worked fine, apart
from some loss of sync between the audio  video, but that is apparently
not a FreeBSD-specific problem.

There was a thread about this on -questions about a month ago explaining
what was needed to make it work, although the real 9.10 release, or the
port, might make this easier.

Cheers,

Scott

-- 
===
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Cambridge, England   | 0x54B171B9 |  don't get sucked into jet engines
scott at fishballoon.org | 0xAA775B8B |  -- Anon
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread FreeBSD WickerBill

On 1/10/07, Scott Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 02:32:41PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:

 Scott and Nikolas,
   I'll try to get the linuxplugin-wrapper port to work with Flash9
 for Linux and then I'll submit the change upstream to the maintainer. I
 too am tired of the fact that Flash is so ubiquitous, but don't have
 much choice but to get it working.
   Aw well.. when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do.. even if
 it involves hideous plugins/content :).

Garrett,

That would be cool - I've not tried anything newer than Flash 7, although
I
guess there wasn't anything newer until recently, for Linux anyway.  Would
be great if you could get it to work.

I've just noticed that there's a www/opera-linuxplugins port that appears
to install Opera 9.10 with the necessary configuration tweaks to use Linux
plugins.  It should just be a matter of installing that, then adding the
install dirs of the various plugins to Opera's plugin path...

Cheers,

Scott

--

===
Scott Mitchell   | PGP Key ID | Eagles may soar, but weasels
Cambridge, England   | 0x54B171B9 |  don't get sucked into jet
engines
scott at fishballoon.org | 0xAA775B8B |  -- Anon
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For those of you that don't know what's in the works I've found this page to
be a handy reference for what is in the near future.

http://ivoras.sharanet.org/freebsd/freebsd7.html
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jeff Mohler

 1 - To fix stuff that works in linux but goes to crap in freebsd, one
 such example is NFS.


I don't actually have a problem with FreeBSD and NFS. This is using about
20+ clients and 2 NetApp filers. What problem are you having, rather than
just goes to crap?

---
If for example you do a make buildworld or a kernel build (anything
that uses a lot of ../.. to walk the dir structure) you will find that
it is way slower than the same builds on local disk.

The basic reason is that a ../.. walk invalidates cached metadata, and
you end up with a pipe full of getattr's all of the time.  Freebsd-fs
has discussed this a bit, but no fixing is coming soon.  We use linux
to compile builds, we'd like to use Freebsd, but linux on Filers via
NFS is about 3x faster than the same builds on Fbsd to the same filer.
 ../.. baby.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Robert Huff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Nikolas Britton writes:

   For accounting/tax purposes, aren't salary and benefits just as
   deductible as contributions?  Hire someone qualified as your
   own full- or part-time employee, and assign them to work on the
   projects that you want to support.  As just one example, that's
   effectively Red Hat's entire operation AFAIK.

  Interesting... I'm not sure the owner would go for it
  though. Maybe a 1099 contractor. Would anyone in the group at
  large be interested in arrangements such as this?

Consider looking up the developers who most recently worked on
the projects of interest; if they're not available, perhaps they
can recommend someone.

  What kind of money (rate) would you expect if you got payed to
  work on stuff your already working on in your spare time?

Unless you have a fairy godparent, expect to pay standard
commercial rates based on the task and the qualifications of the
programmer.




Well that's just it... No way we could afford full rates, If we could
we would hire someone off the street to program x, y, and z to are
liking. I was talking about supporting someone who is already working
on x, y, and z because they have an itch to scratch... To help them
scratch that itch faster... What kind of funding would this type of
person need?
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 10/01/07, Josef Grosch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 10:44:36AM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
  On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 12:01:51AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 
   On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
   Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
   for you to get busy and contribute.
   
  
   I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
   well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
   work... so I can get real things done.
 
  Yah, well the people doing it are also busy and working at things
  which are supposed to make them a living.   Most make their
  FreeBSD contribution work on the side - in addition to their
  paying jobs although some are in the fortunate position of working
  for someone who recognizes it as also contributing to their
  productivity on the job.
 
  There are many ways to contribute.  Not all are writing code.
  Some are in documentation and in other services.   And, although
  it is a volunteer project, it does require money to support such
  things as servers and test machines and network access.
 
  So, if you cannot contribute time and effort and your business is
  so valuable, then consider contributing money - to support someone
  to work in the project, at least part time.
 
  If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
  in the wrong world.


 Hear, hear.

 Nikolas, there are many things that FreeBSD need, a large number of them do
 not require programming. As a Christian here is a saying that I'm sure you
 are familiar with, It's better to light one candle than to curse the
 darkness. So brother Nikolas, what candles have you lit today? You
 certainly have produced a lot of smoke.

 One of the things you could have done instead of wasting your and our time
 on this thrash is to sit down a write a detailed description of some of the
 things you find lacking in FreeBSD. By detailed I mean a series of bullet
 points that describe what is the problem, what you tried, what your setup
 was, OS version, hardware configuration, etc. This would be a whole lot
 more helpful than standing on a street corner and screaming, FreeBSD is
 FUCKED! Linux is taking over!

 Many hands make lite work. Are you going to lend a hand or are you going to
 stand on the sidelines and tell us how we are screwing up. If it is going
 to be the latter please go away, we have more than our fair share of Monday
 morning quarterbacks.



 Josef

 --
 Josef Grosch   | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 6.1
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |   Micro$oft free world  | Berkeley, Ca.




What I think freebsd needs.

1 - To fix stuff that works in linux but goes to crap in freebsd, one
such example is NFS.
2 - A better installer, this is probably the biggest single thing that
puts people of freebsd, the less people using freebsd the less funds
likely to be recieved.



Could you articulate on point 2?... I don't really see that as a problem.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Oliver Iberien
At least this thread got me (desktop user, not especially technically 
sophisticated) to go make a little donation to the FreeBSD Foundation, as it 
is the one way I can help out, and show that I'm grateful for FreeBSD. 

On Wednesday 10 January 2007 08:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 So, if you cannot contribute time and effort and your business is
 so valuable, then consider contributing money - to support someone
 to work in the project, at least part time.

  If you only want to get something for nothing, then you live
  in the wrong world.
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Porting Acrobat 9 to FBSD Mozilla / Opera and OT: installer promotion (was Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?)

2007-01-10 Thread Garrett Cooper
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Scott Mitchell wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 02:32:41PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
 Scott and Nikolas,
  I'll try to get the linuxplugin-wrapper port to work with Flash9
 for Linux and then I'll submit the change upstream to the maintainer. I
 too am tired of the fact that Flash is so ubiquitous, but don't have
 much choice but to get it working.
  Aw well.. when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do.. even if
 it involves hideous plugins/content :).
 
 Garrett,
 
 That would be cool - I've not tried anything newer than Flash 7, although I
 guess there wasn't anything newer until recently, for Linux anyway.  Would
 be great if you could get it to work.
 
 I've just noticed that there's a www/opera-linuxplugins port that appears
 to install Opera 9.10 with the necessary configuration tweaks to use Linux
 plugins.  It should just be a matter of installing that, then adding the
 install dirs of the various plugins to Opera's plugin path...
 
 Cheers,
 
   Scott

Yup, I know. I'll take a look into the opera linuxplugin wrapper port
too so I can get both Mozilla and Opera sync'ed. I should start work
sometime this weekend because I need to finish off another project
(Javascript / HTML-based installer and package updater for work) before
I move to California.

Speaking of which, any Windows admins on this list want me to post the
source for the installer / updater / package manager on sourceforge? It
may come in handy. I don't expect anyone to use it for Unix since
scripting in Unix is excellent already, but I'm going to automatically
add in Windows support and maybe Mac OSX support as well, but that's
iffy.. I'm only going to working for my IT firm for a while, so support
would be beer-based funding, if anyone's interested :D.

- -Garrett
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Re: Porting Acrobat 9 to FBSD Mozilla / Opera and OT: installer promotion (was Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?)

2007-01-10 Thread Dak Ghatikachalam

I think it is about time that FREEBSD OS gets the act together  by
integrating  all the plugins for firefox.

I have been trying to make these plugins work,

not sure what more we need  countering all plugins for firefox

which could make work all, right now I could only view the video in cnn.com.

Others like ABC news, google video, youtube, msnbc.ocm,  and so many other
news networks, in general anything   the videos from web browser are not
working

either it is expecting the flash player ( I configured this but does not
seem to work) or shockwave player

I found this  linux tutorial giving some insight
http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/LinuxTutorialMozillaConfiguration.html#PLUGINS

This is such a big deal, that we could not view any videos in firefox,

I have compiled the mplayer, but that makes he cnn.com work not sure the
same mplayer can be used in the place of  all those plugins out here.

and then there is that big discussion I see in freebsd last month

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2006-December.txt.gz


regards
Dak




On 1/10/07, Garrett Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Scott Mitchell wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 02:32:41PM -0800, Garrett Cooper wrote:
 Scott and Nikolas,
  I'll try to get the linuxplugin-wrapper port to work with Flash9
 for Linux and then I'll submit the change upstream to the maintainer. I
 too am tired of the fact that Flash is so ubiquitous, but don't have
 much choice but to get it working.
  Aw well.. when in Rome, one must do as the Romans do.. even if
 it involves hideous plugins/content :).

 Garrett,

 That would be cool - I've not tried anything newer than Flash 7,
although I
 guess there wasn't anything newer until recently, for Linux
anyway.  Would
 be great if you could get it to work.

 I've just noticed that there's a www/opera-linuxplugins port that
appears
 to install Opera 9.10 with the necessary configuration tweaks to use
Linux
 plugins.  It should just be a matter of installing that, then adding the
 install dirs of the various plugins to Opera's plugin path...

 Cheers,

   Scott

Yup, I know. I'll take a look into the opera linuxplugin wrapper port
too so I can get both Mozilla and Opera sync'ed. I should start work
sometime this weekend because I need to finish off another project
(Javascript / HTML-based installer and package updater for work) before
I move to California.

Speaking of which, any Windows admins on this list want me to post the
source for the installer / updater / package manager on sourceforge? It
may come in handy. I don't expect anyone to use it for Unix since
scripting in Unix is excellent already, but I'm going to automatically
add in Windows support and maybe Mac OSX support as well, but that's
iffy.. I'm only going to working for my IT firm for a while, so support
would be beer-based funding, if anyone's interested :D.

- -Garrett
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.1 (FreeBSD)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFFpa8DEnKyINQw/HARAtEGAJ4tKn0wA9VjttQK4WO3xDpwNGXJOgCfV23U
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=dOMI
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jeff Mohler

I dunno..Linux got _somewhere_ before big money came into it.

Like I said..when Fbsd 2.5 was light _years_ ahead of Linux..sometime
after that, focus was lost.

Perhaps chosing to emulate instead of innovate (work smart not hard)
didnt pay off as well as everyone hoped.

..not that nobody worked hard..just that perhaps a decision was made
to let the linux community write the new code and Fbsd community would
polish it and/or emulate it once it was complete.

On 1/10/07, Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Jeff Mohler wrote:
 Not all of us can program..but let me ask this question.

 Linux is all volunteer, how did it get so far ahead?

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-825723.html

Brian



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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Brian

Jeff Mohler wrote:

Not all of us can program..but let me ask this question.

Linux is all volunteer, how did it get so far ahead?


http://news.com.com/2100-1001-825723.html

Brian

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Bob McIsaac

-- Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?  -

 This is a tired old thread
 Please put it to bed
 Don't keep it fed
 Think positive instead

 Cheers,
 - BobMc -



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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Jeff Mohler

Most of us are, understanding how we/it got here, IS positive.

What to do about it..is progress.

On 1/10/07, Bob McIsaac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

-- Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?  -

  This is a tired old thread
  Please put it to bed
  Don't keep it fed
  Think positive instead

  Cheers,
  - BobMc -



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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-10 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I dunno..Linux got _somewhere_ before big money came into it.

Like I said..when Fbsd 2.5 was light _years_ ahead of Linux..sometime
after that, focus was lost.



USL v. BSDi happened.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Kris Kennaway
On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions
 -
 Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause
 
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause
 
 The big license mess, part 2
 
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2
 --
 Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues

No.

Kris


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Description: PGP signature


Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions
 -
 Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause
 
 The big license mess, part 2

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2
 --
 Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues

No.

Kris




Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:
1. Xen Dom0 support?
2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?
3. Better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo systems?
4. ZFS support?
5. Better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays: (fsck, etc.)?
6. Speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff? checksum offloading, Interrupt load
problems, packet processing speed, etc?
7. Better SMP support, GIANT lock in RAID/LAN drivers, etc...

Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
it promises?
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Garrett Cooper

Nikolas Britton wrote:

On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions 


 -
 Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause 

 


 The big license mess, part 2

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2 


 --
 Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues

No.

Kris




Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:
1. Xen Dom0 support?
2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?
3. Better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo systems?
4. ZFS support?
5. Better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays: (fsck, etc.)?
6. Speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff? checksum offloading, Interrupt load
problems, packet processing speed, etc?
7. Better SMP support, GIANT lock in RAID/LAN drivers, etc...

Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
it promises?

Don't know about some of the items, but...
   -Flash support with Mozilla products is being done through Mozilla's 
ActionScript Engine: 
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200611/110706Mozilla.html. 
So, I expect the latest version of Adobe's Flash Player to be supported 
on all Unix platforms to some extent in the future. Sound support will 
be interesting though.

   -Isn't Xen handled by the Xen project and not FreeBSD?
   Seems like your comment (was related) but off-topic.
-Garrett
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Peter Giessel
On Tuesday, January 09, 2007, at 02:38PM, Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:

Why is another project's problems FreeBSD's problem?
Xorg isn't even in the base system.

If you install a port, that is your problem, but my server runs great without 
Xorg
and Xorg is not part of FreeBSD.  It will run on FreeBSD, but that is like
blaming Apple for Windows Media Player problems on Mac OS X.

2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?

If you buy a quality SATA Raid card, with quality support, this isn't an
issue.  3ware regularly updates the drivers for their cards and
regularly commits their updates back into the base system.  Buy
a cheep card, get cheep support, buy a quality card, get quality
support.

Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
it promises?

Why do you blame FreeBSD for other project's problems?
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Greg 'groggy' Lehey
On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 17:08:45 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:

 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions
 -
 Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause

 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause
 
 The big license mess, part 2

 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2
 --
 Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues

 No.

 Why then?
 [bitch and moan session removed]

 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers
 on it promises?

You shouldn't.  You obviously don't understand the issues.  We don't
owe you anything.  Play an active part or go away.

Greg
--
When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients.
If you don't, I may ignore the reply or reply to the original recipients.
For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Chris
Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
 
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions

  -
  Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause
 
 
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause

 
 
  The big license mess, part 2
 
 
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2

  --
  Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues

 No.

 Kris


 
 Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
 for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:
 1. Xen Dom0 support?
 2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?
 3. Better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo systems?
 4. ZFS support?
 5. Better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays: (fsck, etc.)?
 6. Speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff? checksum offloading, Interrupt load
 problems, packet processing speed, etc?
 7. Better SMP support, GIANT lock in RAID/LAN drivers, etc...
 
 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
 it promises?

You shouldn't! If you are that taken back - you certainly don't need the
issues of a project that does not deliver on it's promises.

On the other hand - feel free to use Microsoft's products because we all
know that they tend to keep promises AND, as a extra bonus, create an
ultra secure OS that never fails. And as an extra extra bonus - you have
the luxury of paying a poop-load for all that ... and more!

So - with such an obvious choice (as mentioned above), you really don't
need the failed promises that this project routinely makes to you,
Nikolas Britton!


-- 
Best regards,
Chris

Everything is revealed to he who turns over enough stones.
(Including the snakes that he did not want to find.)


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Andreas Rudisch
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:08:45 +0100, Nikolas Britton  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:


Since when is Xorg a part of FreeBSD?
Java ports / Java-diablo anyone?


1. Xen Dom0 support?
2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?
3. Better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo systems?
4. ZFS support?
5. Better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays: (fsck, etc.)?
6. Speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff? checksum offloading, Interrupt load
problems, packet processing speed, etc?
7. Better SMP support, GIANT lock in RAID/LAN drivers, etc...


?


Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
it promises?


Noone is forcing you to do so.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 05:08:45PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

 On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
  
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions
  -
  Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause
 
  
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause
  
  The big license mess, part 2
 
  
 http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2
  --
  Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues
 
 No.
 
 Kris
 
 
 
 Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
 for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:
 1. Xen Dom0 support?
 2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?
 3. Better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo systems?
 4. ZFS support?
 5. Better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays: (fsck, etc.)?
 6. Speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff? checksum offloading, Interrupt load
 problems, packet processing speed, etc?
 7. Better SMP support, GIANT lock in RAID/LAN drivers, etc...
 
 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
 it promises?

Don't. 
FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
Seems like you just posted a nice list of things 
for you to get busy and contribute.

jerry

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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Peter Giessel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tuesday, January 09, 2007, at 02:38PM, Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:

Why is another project's problems FreeBSD's problem?
Xorg isn't even in the base system.



It's FreeBSD's problem because Xorg doesn't hard lock the system on
other systems.
It's FreeBSD's problem because other systems don't have these problems.
It's FreeBSD's problem because DRM/DRI is a part of the kernel.


2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?

If you buy a quality SATA Raid card, with quality support, this isn't an
issue.  3ware regularly updates the drivers for their cards and
regularly commits their updates back into the base system.  Buy
a cheep card, get cheep support, buy a quality card, get quality
support.



I agree that if you buy a cheap RAID card you get cheap support, which
is why I buy $800 SATA RAID cards. I'm primarily talking about on
motherboard RAID 1 solutions. Native SATA RAID 1 support in FreeBSD is
in such disarray I not sure where to begin. How about reading and
writing metadata and failing gracefully, without a system panic, when
a drive momentary doesn't respond to commands. inband rebuilding after
a failure would be nice as well... I'm tired of fucking around with
this shit.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Garrett Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Don't know about some of the items, but...
-Flash support with Mozilla products is being done through Mozilla's
ActionScript Engine:
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200611/110706Mozilla.html.
So, I expect the latest version of Adobe's Flash Player to be supported
on all Unix platforms to some extent in the future. Sound support will
be interesting though.


But I use Opera?? And It needs to work with youtube, without crashing
and without install headaches. 'cd /usr/ports/www/flash; make install
clean; exit;' then open browser to youtube.com and go. No library
shuffle or libmap configuring.


-Isn't Xen handled by the Xen project and not FreeBSD?


Yes, and they have done their part. Now it's FreeBSD's turn to
integrate the changes needed to the kernel into the kernel to make
Dom0 support work. Linux has it, Solaris has it. NetBSD has it. Mac
has it? FreeBSD does not have it. Server virtualization is the next
big thing and FreeBSD has nothing going for it in this respect... Not
even VMware or any of the other big players works with FreeBSD as a
host OS.


Seems like your comment (was related) but off-topic.


It is off-topic... don't really care at this point.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Andreas Rudisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:08:45 +0100, Nikolas Britton
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Why then? Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
 for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:

Since when is Xorg a part of FreeBSD?
Java ports / Java-diablo anyone?



Java has come a long way as of late. Does FreeBSD still have that
stupid click through thing to download java?... That needs to go if
it's still there.


 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
 it promises?

Noone is forcing you to do so.



Let me restate that... I want to use FreeBSD, but the lack of progress
is driving me and others away.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Jeff Mohler

Fbsd needs SAN support before it can cope with
virtualization..virtualization requires a lot of disk..spindles..and
FCP/iSCSI is a great way to drive this condensation.

I mean..when you have to read this list, and see people wonder which
end of a SAN connection owns the responsibility for fsck'ing a SAN
filesystem, I wonder how quickly I can bone up on Linux.

In ten years at Network Appliance..wanna know exactly how many FreeBSD
host installs ive seen besides Yahoo?

2.

How many -non- Linux SAN configurations?  Probly 80% of all SAN I see
and work with are Linux based.

Fbsd NFS client performance is 1/3'd that of a tuned linux box, can
you say ../..?  If you can, you know what its like to never have a
valid directory attr cache on your mounts.  (ick)  Automount...dont
even go there.

Im in this for the long haul..I like Fbsd, and as long s lynx and
apache still work on it, im happy.  As for the future..I just dont see
much serious future there unless it grows up.

Rememer when Linux couldnt do _crap_ and Fbsd 2.5 was the bomb?  I
do...I want like to see that again.



On 1/9/07, Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 1/9/07, Garrett Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Don't know about some of the items, but...
 -Flash support with Mozilla products is being done through Mozilla's
 ActionScript Engine:
 
http://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressreleases/200611/110706Mozilla.html.
 So, I expect the latest version of Adobe's Flash Player to be supported
 on all Unix platforms to some extent in the future. Sound support will
 be interesting though.

But I use Opera?? And It needs to work with youtube, without crashing
and without install headaches. 'cd /usr/ports/www/flash; make install
clean; exit;' then open browser to youtube.com and go. No library
shuffle or libmap configuring.

 -Isn't Xen handled by the Xen project and not FreeBSD?

Yes, and they have done their part. Now it's FreeBSD's turn to
integrate the changes needed to the kernel into the kernel to make
Dom0 support work. Linux has it, Solaris has it. NetBSD has it. Mac
has it? FreeBSD does not have it. Server virtualization is the next
big thing and FreeBSD has nothing going for it in this respect... Not
even VMware or any of the other big players works with FreeBSD as a
host OS.

 Seems like your comment (was related) but off-topic.

It is off-topic... don't really care at this point.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Rico Secada
On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 23:07:55 -0600
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
   it promises?
 
  Noone is forcing you to do so.
 
 
 Let me restate that... I want to use FreeBSD, but the lack of progress
 is driving me and others away.

Then just go away! If you have a problem with FreeBSD, then start working on 
the issue, pay someone else to do it, or just shut up! 
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


You shouldn't! If you are that taken back - you certainly don't need the
issues of a project that does not deliver on it's promises.

On the other hand - feel free to use Microsoft's products because we all
know that they tend to keep promises AND, as a extra bonus, create an
ultra secure OS that never fails. And as an extra extra bonus - you have
the luxury of paying a poop-load for all that ... and more!



Well... I already did this about 2 months back. After 2 years of
continuous desktop use (primary desktop) I ran into a problem (Xorg
DRI) that just completely burned me out corrupted file system through
multiple hard locks trying to debug FreeBSD). I broke down and
installed XP. The project has lost me as a desktop user. I do really
miss KDE, ports system, and the FreeBSD user tool chain but I cannot
come back, I've already upgraded my desktop hardware beyond that of
FreeBSD's capabilities. My servers are still 100% FreeBSD though...
But I am not sure how much longer this will be true.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tuesday,  9 January 2007 at 17:08:45 -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:
 On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 09:33:18AM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions
 -
 Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause
 
 The big license mess, part 2

 
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2
 --
 Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues

 No.

 Why then?
 [bitch and moan session removed]

 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers
 on it promises?

You shouldn't.  You obviously don't understand the issues.  We don't
owe you anything.  Play an active part or go away.



Fuck off Greg,

Sincerely.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
for you to get busy and contribute.



I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
work... so I can get real things done.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Rico Secada
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:01:51 -0600
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
  Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
  for you to get busy and contribute.
 
 
 I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
 well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
 work... so I can get real things done.

So you need people to work freely, without any pay, to make things work 
for you, so you can complain when something isn't working like you 
want it to!? So you can get real things done!?

If you have a business to manage, and just need this to work, made by
people who contribute for free, maybe its time you start to pay someone!?

Now just shut up and go away!!!
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Fbsd needs SAN support before it can cope with
virtualization..virtualization requires a lot of disk..spindles..and
FCP/iSCSI is a great way to drive this condensation.

I mean..when you have to read this list, and see people wonder which
end of a SAN connection owns the responsibility for fsck'ing a SAN
filesystem, I wonder how quickly I can bone up on Linux.

In ten years at Network Appliance..wanna know exactly how many FreeBSD
host installs ive seen besides Yahoo?

2.

How many -non- Linux SAN configurations?  Probly 80% of all SAN I see
and work with are Linux based.

Fbsd NFS client performance is 1/3'd that of a tuned linux box, can
you say ../..?  If you can, you know what its like to never have a
valid directory attr cache on your mounts.  (ick)  Automount...dont
even go there.

Im in this for the long haul..I like Fbsd, and as long s lynx and
apache still work on it, im happy.  As for the future..I just dont see
much serious future there unless it grows up.

Rememer when Linux couldnt do _crap_ and Fbsd 2.5 was the bomb?  I
do...I want like to see that again.



I'd like to see FreeBSD on top too, I really love and care for it but
I'm very disappointed and ambivalent with the projects current state
of affairs. I think one project that should be attempted is to get
FreeBSD running on top of a Linux kernel. This could potently solve
FreeBSD's biggest problems We could mold it (the Linux kernel)
into are own kernel while still maintaining compatibility with the
real Linux kernel tree. anyhow... it's something to think about.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/9/07, Kris Kennaway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 05:07:08PM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote:

 Why then?

Various administrative delays, mostly.  e.g. the main ftp distribution
server had hardware failure for a few weeks.



Shit happens and we did just change out the core team, specifically
the release engineering team... so that's understandable... I guess my
comment was mainly targeted at the general state of affairs for the
last two years.



 Are you guys ever going to do something about Xorg DRI/DRM
 for Radeon cards, Java, and Flash support? More importantly:
 1. Xen Dom0 support?
 2. Fix SATA RAID driver problems?
 3. Better chipset support for new 51xx Xeon and Core 2 Duo systems?
 4. ZFS support?
 5. Better support for 2TB, or greater, RAID arrays: (fsck, etc.)?
 6. Speed up GigE and 10GigE stuff? checksum offloading, Interrupt load
 problems, packet processing speed, etc?
 7. Better SMP support, GIANT lock in RAID/LAN drivers, etc...

Some of these are already there, some are in progress, etc.



I haven't been keeping track lately but that's good if true. Will see
what happens when I upgrade my servers.


 Why should I continue using FreeBSD when the project never delivers on
 it promises?

If you're unhappy, there's the door.  Pandering to complainers isn't
high on my personal list of interests.



I am unhappy but I care too much about FreeBSD to just up and leave,
it may be time for a sabbatical though... And I complain because I
care... like a parent.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Jeff Mohler

If I could program my way out of a _paper bag_ I would.  But I cant.

But ive helped drive some wonderful gifting Fbsd's way in my time..im
still a believer.

On 1/9/07, Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 1/9/07, Jeff Mohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Fbsd needs SAN support before it can cope with
 virtualization..virtualization requires a lot of disk..spindles..and
 FCP/iSCSI is a great way to drive this condensation.

 I mean..when you have to read this list, and see people wonder which
 end of a SAN connection owns the responsibility for fsck'ing a SAN
 filesystem, I wonder how quickly I can bone up on Linux.

 In ten years at Network Appliance..wanna know exactly how many FreeBSD
 host installs ive seen besides Yahoo?

 2.

 How many -non- Linux SAN configurations?  Probly 80% of all SAN I see
 and work with are Linux based.

 Fbsd NFS client performance is 1/3'd that of a tuned linux box, can
 you say ../..?  If you can, you know what its like to never have a
 valid directory attr cache on your mounts.  (ick)  Automount...dont
 even go there.

 Im in this for the long haul..I like Fbsd, and as long s lynx and
 apache still work on it, im happy.  As for the future..I just dont see
 much serious future there unless it grows up.

 Rememer when Linux couldnt do _crap_ and Fbsd 2.5 was the bomb?  I
 do...I want like to see that again.


I'd like to see FreeBSD on top too, I really love and care for it but
I'm very disappointed and ambivalent with the projects current state
of affairs. I think one project that should be attempted is to get
FreeBSD running on top of a Linux kernel. This could potently solve
FreeBSD's biggest problems We could mold it (the Linux kernel)
into are own kernel while still maintaining compatibility with the
real Linux kernel tree. anyhow... it's something to think about.


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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Jeff Mohler

Not all of us can program..but let me ask this question.

Linux is all volunteer, how did it get so far ahead?

Granted I'll take ports over RPM's and such any day, but..ports hasnt
sucked up all of the Fbsd oxygen by itself in the last handful of
years.

On 1/9/07, Rico Secada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:01:51 -0600
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
  Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
  for you to get busy and contribute.
 

 I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
 well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
 work... so I can get real things done.

So you need people to work freely, without any pay, to make things work
for you, so you can complain when something isn't working like you
want it to!? So you can get real things done!?

If you have a business to manage, and just need this to work, made by
people who contribute for free, maybe its time you start to pay someone!?

Now just shut up and go away!!!
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Colin Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Nikolas Britton wrote:
 I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
 well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
 work... so I can get real things done.

In other words, you want us to hurry up and do more unpaid work, so that
you can make more money?

Colin Percival
PS. http://www.freebsd.org/donations/
PPS. http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/



I'm more then willing to pay real money to support the sub-projects
that are of interest to me. I need to see some real progress being
made in return though. Feel free to start working on any of the
problems I listed. When you have something to show me I'll send some
cash. Maybe core needs to make it easier to direct are funds to the
sub-projects of are choice and still qualify it as a deductible
expense.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Rico Secada
On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:48:39 -0600
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I am unhappy but I care too much about FreeBSD to just up and leave,
 it may be time for a sabbatical though... And I complain because I
 care... like a parent.

Trolling.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Rico Secada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:01:51 -0600
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  FreeBSD is created and supported by volunteers.
  Seems like you just posted a nice list of things
  for you to get busy and contribute.
 

 I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
 well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
 work... so I can get real things done.

So you need people to work freely, without any pay, to make things work
for you, so you can complain when something isn't working like you
want it to!? So you can get real things done!?

If you have a business to manage, and just need this to work, made by
people who contribute for free, maybe its time you start to pay someone!?



Repost:
I'm more then willing to pay real money to support the sub-projects
that are of interest to me. I need to see some real progress being
made in return though. Feel free to start working on any of the
problems I listed. When you have something to show me I'll send some
cash. Maybe core needs to make it easier to direct are funds to the
sub-projects of are choice and still qualify it as a deductible
expense.


Now just shut up and go away!!!



No.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Colin Percival
Nikolas Britton wrote:
 I don't have time to contribute work, I have a business to manage as
 well as other obligations that come first... I need this stuff to just
 work... so I can get real things done.

In other words, you want us to hurry up and do more unpaid work, so that
you can make more money?

Colin Percival
PS. http://www.freebsd.org/donations/
PPS. http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-09 Thread Nikolas Britton

On 1/10/07, Rico Secada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 00:48:39 -0600
Nikolas Britton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I am unhappy but I care too much about FreeBSD to just up and leave,
 it may be time for a sabbatical though... And I complain because I
 care... like a parent.

Trolling.



Activism.
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Re: is THIS why the 6.2 release seems stalled ?

2007-01-08 Thread Gabor Kovesdan

Jim Pazarena schrieb:
http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/08/a-shadow-lies-upon-all-bsd-distributions 


-
Gentoo/FreeBSD: license problems require a development pause

http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/gentoo-freebsd-license-problems-requires-a-development-pause 



The big license mess, part 2

http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/articles/2007/01/07/the-big-license-mess-part-2 


--
Gentoo/FreeBSD On Hold Due To Licensing Issues
No, Gentoo/FreeBSD is an another project from Gentoo to port their 
infratructure to the FreeBSD kernel. That project is developed by the 
Gentoo people not by us.


Regards,
Gabor
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