Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Da Rock

On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 11:38 -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
 * Jeremy Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-14 14:56:26 -0800]:
 
 opinion But why are we interested in converting people?  That
 borders on religious, which an operating system should not be.
 
 
 I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half
 the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and
 improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert.  Build it
 (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come.
 
 Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like
 FreeBSD?
 
 Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases
 their profits.  But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to
 FreeBSD?  
 
 FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of
 developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps.  But even
 if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've
 done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves.  
 New users who are also developers can contribute to this effort,
 so it makes sense to actively recruit them.
 
 But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer
 users?  If these new users also contribute to the project, by working on
 documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to
 actively recruit them too.
 
 Perhaps there's an implicit calculation that only x percent of new users
 will actually contribute to the project, so if you want/need C new
 contributors, you should aim to recruit N = C / x new users.
 
 Some of the comments in this thread have expressed one of the problems
 new users can bring: an expectation and demand that things work the way
 they used to on their old OS.  People who voice these concerns want to
 preserve the Unix philosophy and culture, so they don't welcome
 immigrants who refuse to assimilate.  They don't see those immigrants as
 potential contributors to the project; they see them as people who want
 to replace it with a different project altogether.
 
 ...which perhaps explains why some people want to impose something like
 a Unix citizenship test.
 
 Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for
 software.  For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often
 discussed various graphics tools.  In his opinion, the Gimp is a
 powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist
 might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect
 the way artists actually do their work.  He says this isn't just that
 they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the
 nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural,
 effortless way.  He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software
 engineers rather than artists. 
 
 We need users like that, who aren't developers but who are experts in
 their own domain.  How much of FreeBSD's strength as a server derives
 from the fact that so many of its users have been sysadmins with a keen
 awareness of the day-to-day problems in that domain? (It's also been an
 important fact that many of them are developers too.)
 
 So when new users appear and start requesting changes to make things
 more like the system they came from, we shouldn't automatically classify
 them as unassimilable immigrants.  We should try to understand what
 they're really looking for, and whether or how our current software
 supports it.  
 
 It's especially important to understand why they left their old home.
 What was the need that inspired them to consider a change?  How did
 their old OS fail to meet that need?
 
 Sometimes our answer to them is going to be, No, sorry, our project
 isn't designed to do that or That isn't one of our project's goals.
 Maybe you should consider Project Y instead.  There's nothing wrong
 with that kind of answer.  It's coheres with the Unix philosophy of
 clarity of purpose (e.g., tools that do one thing and do it well.)
 
 So, in conclusion, we DON'T need new users because growing the userbase
 is good in itself. Sometimes growth is cancerous, and kills the body.
 We DO need new users insofar as they help us meet the goals of our
 project. 
 
 (And sometimes new users suggest new goals for us to pursue.)
 
 -- Charlie

Thats a very good point, and in my own case I'm not here to leach off
the systems here. I make points of driver issues, but I so far have
lacked the abilities to change this; ergo I turn to the lists... That
won't be forever, my skills as a developer have grown and now its simply
a matter of time to work on these projects.

I have a skill such as mentioned here, in the manner of my users have a
great deal of experience in their fields (including myself) and can make
valid suggestions as to how to make things better. Better yet I'm trying
enact some of those suggestions and test them locally with the users.
I'm also trying to train my users to use 

Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Da Rock

On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 11:54 -0800, Charlie Kester wrote:
 * Da Rock [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-16 15:21:27 +1000]:
 
 
 The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be
 deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way,
 and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server
 environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and
 software.
 
 To the extent that Linux succeeds in making things just work, it will
 prevent or at least delay the user's learning the Unix way.
 
 Most of us got our Unix knowledge the old-fashioned way: we earned it.
 We stumbled over one problem or another and fought our way through to a
 solution.
 
 When things just work, only the technically curious will explore
 beneath the hood to see exactly how they work.
 
 Maybe we shouldn't make it a goal that every user should have that kind
 of deep-water knowledge?
 
 Should it really be a goal that every user become familiar with the
 shell and commandline tools?  Why not let them live happily ever after
 in a point-and-click world?

Maybe, but they will still hit some issues, and they will still find
things very different than what they're used to in windows- this in
itself is deep enough water for most that are very M$-centric. Why make
it harder?

Let them get used to the environment, see what actually happens when
things are plugged in and what not, then eventually they will be forced
to go to the cli to do exactly what they want. Once they get passed the
initial chill of the water then they can ease into the *nix methods on
the cli, and then they will be more comfortable to use Unix outright,
solve the issues with the hardware/software/uses they wish to put it to.

Maybe we differ in opinion just a little this way...

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Da Rock

On Sun, 2008-11-16 at 22:53 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  Still it goes, the OP is trying to get away from MS-Win, not find some
  non-MS clone
 
 in EVERY such post i see exactly opposite. they want windoze clones!
 they don't ask about how to learn unix, what to read, they didn't read 
 even basic manuals, or if so - just glanced.
 
 actually - there is a market niche for true non-microsoft windoze clone!
 it's strange noone try to fill it. it's millions of $ to earn!
 

Try ReactOS- it's exactly that.

I think its a version of Wine on steroids...

Also I think thats what Xandros and some of it's partners are doing.


 something working like windoze, running windoze .exe/.dll binaries and 
 windows compatible installer but for example not requiring gig of RAM, 
 powerful CPU running 10 times faster (not difficult to achieve) etc...
 
 
 
 i remember many years ago installing linux first time (linux was quite 
 good that time). i spent 2 months on it reading everything needed and 
 learning BEFORE asking questions on mailing lists! because i knew nothing 
 about unix at first.
 
 I knew only DOS and windoze 95 before, DOS isn't an OS at all, but that 
 is adventage too. but i needed something that made full use of my 25Mhz 
 486.
 
 Windoze definitely wasn't good in it. it just wasted hardware resources 
 giving nothing. that's why i tried to seek something different.
 and found linux.. after some time NetBSD, then FreeBSD.
 
 
 
 today - most of these wannabe-FreeBSD-users just don't want to pay for 
 windoze. nothing else!
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Wojciech Puchar




Try ReactOS- it's exactly that.

I think its a version of Wine on steroids...


does it really work - i mean all (or most at least) programs work.

can user simply put say - M$ Office CD/DVD and click setup?

if yes - they NEED MORE ADVERTISEMENT.

i will check it today on second disk. if it's OK i will start recommending 
it all people i know that use windoze.


thanks for info.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Jeremy Chadwick
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:23:07AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:


 Try ReactOS- it's exactly that.

 I think its a version of Wine on steroids...

 does it really work - i mean all (or most at least) programs work.

 can user simply put say - M$ Office CD/DVD and click setup?

 if yes - they NEED MORE ADVERTISEMENT.

 i will check it today on second disk. if it's OK i will start 
 recommending it all people i know that use windoze.

ReactOS is somewhat of a joke at this point.  I've personally tried it,
and I cannot see how it can be taken seriously until its cleaned up and
made much more user-friendly.  There's also been some developer drama
in recent days, which literally halted the project for months on end,
and I don't know what became of that.

But does it work (e.x. does it function)?  Yes, it does.

-- 
| Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com |
| Parodius Networking   http://www.parodius.com/ |
| UNIX Systems Administrator  Mountain View, CA, USA |
| Making life hard for others since 1977.  PGP: 4BD6C0CB |

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Wojciech Puchar


Try ReactOS- it's exactly that.


well it's an alpha state now as stated on their webpage.

i wish they will finalize it withing reasonable time.
it would be great.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Wojciech Puchar


ReactOS is somewhat of a joke at this point.  I've personally tried it,
and I cannot see how it can be taken seriously until its cleaned up and
made much more user-friendly.  There's also been some developer drama
in recent days, which literally halted the project for months on end,
and I don't know what became of that.


quite bad, as their donation page. if they want to do something real 
then more people (but less than 10) are needed and finally implement all 
functionality.


they could sell it, instead of begging for donations



But does it work (e.x. does it function)?  Yes, it does.

--
| Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com |
| Parodius Networking   http://www.parodius.com/ |
| UNIX Systems Administrator  Mountain View, CA, USA |
| Making life hard for others since 1977.  PGP: 4BD6C0CB |



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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Bruce Cran
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 22:41:27 +0100 (CET)
Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert.  Build
  it (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come.
 
  Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like
  FreeBSD?
 
 to some level - better driver support. but 
 windows-converters-seeking-for-nicer-windows don't write drivers.
 
 this level is OK, more users can make only harm.
 
 exactly what happened with linux.
 
 as heavyweight sponsors did. they pay but request not just adding 
 drivers but to add strange-but-trendy features and solutions that
 take system's quality down quickly.
 
 exactly that happened to NetBSD. i recently installed newest NetBSD 
 version just to look at it. it was damn slow and even slower under
 high load!!
 
 not mentioning linux that got just billion$ total sposoring from IBM.
 

Could you point out some of those strange-but-trendy features?  I tried
Ubuntu for a while on my laptop and it more or less Just Works.  It
boots up quickly, detects all my devices, has accelerated 3D etc.
Now I did move back to FreeBSD because I had problems with its
autodetection system - in particular the graphics card wasn't
configured properly. But that's a problem with Ubuntu specifically, and
I could just as easily have switched to Debian or Gentoo where more
manual configuration is required - just like in FreeBSD.   One of the
strengths of Linux is that if you find one of the new trendy features
doesn't work, you can generally just build a new kernel - without
including it. If it's user-space you don't like - well, that's a
problem with the distribution, not linux itself.

-- 
Bruce Cran
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Da Rock

On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:23 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 
 
  Try ReactOS- it's exactly that.
 
  I think its a version of Wine on steroids...
 
 does it really work - i mean all (or most at least) programs work.
 
 can user simply put say - M$ Office CD/DVD and click setup?
 
 if yes - they NEED MORE ADVERTISEMENT.
 
 i will check it today on second disk. if it's OK i will start recommending 
 it all people i know that use windoze.
 
 thanks for info.

Its currently a VM image so just use that - saves scratching a hard
drive...

Go to the vmware site and its located in the appliances section.

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Da Rock

On Mon, 2008-11-17 at 10:40 +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 
  ReactOS is somewhat of a joke at this point.  I've personally tried it,
  and I cannot see how it can be taken seriously until its cleaned up and
  made much more user-friendly.  There's also been some developer drama
  in recent days, which literally halted the project for months on end,
  and I don't know what became of that.
 
 quite bad, as their donation page. if they want to do something real 
 then more people (but less than 10) are needed and finally implement all 
 functionality.
 
 they could sell it, instead of begging for donations
 

If you start selling software like that, you end up just like another M
$.

Me personally I don't like the software and system introduced by M$, so
thats why I've moved to more secure systems like FOSS. I'd rather spend
my time working with a community like this fixing issues than wasting
time solving issues with win32 setups which simply don't hold water.


 
  But does it work (e.x. does it function)?  Yes, it does.
 
  -- 
  | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com |
  | Parodius Networking   http://www.parodius.com/ |
  | UNIX Systems Administrator  Mountain View, CA, USA |
  | Making life hard for others since 1977.  PGP: 4BD6C0CB |
 
 
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Wojciech Puchar

they could sell it, instead of begging for donations



If you start selling software like that, you end up just like another M
$.


of course not like that. but with total of ca 2000$ donations over 2 years 
it doesn't make sense.




Me personally I don't like the software and system introduced by M$, so
thats why I've moved to more secure systems like FOSS. I'd rather spend
my time working with a community like this fixing issues than wasting
time solving issues with win32 setups which simply don't hold water.


me too. i don't use windows and windows-like environments. but again - 
there is a place for competition on that field.



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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-17 Thread Wojciech Puchar

not mentioning linux that got just billion$ total sposoring from IBM.



Could you point out some of those strange-but-trendy features?  I tried
Ubuntu for a while on my laptop and it more or less Just Works.  It


very slow and badly under high load
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Da Rock

On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 16:39 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
 
  On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote:
 
 
  On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote:
   Dear sirs
  
   please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from
   windows vista
  
   but i cannot understand which system to use
  
   i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software
  
   kind regards
  
   Peter
 
  Welcome to the free world Peter!
 
  FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
  very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
  This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.
 
  This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful.
  This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know
  their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is
  not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system.
 
  My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other
  derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this
  is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The
  software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will
  usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a
  lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get
  your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content.
 
  This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system
  when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like
  comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll
  gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD.
 
  This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier
  to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse
  I often have to use for some servers at work.
 
 Amen to that.  I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot  
 themselves in the foot.  They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV
 
 ed
 
  You can learn them all if you want and use them all.
  But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder
  than the Lunix flavors out there.
 

The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be
deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way,
and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server
environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and
software.

I think FreeBSD is great, but when you hit hardware issues -
particularly new hardware - linux has the greater support for the new
user. And there is no reason to hide heads in the sand, especially with
new desktop hardware like multimedia (which is growing in popularity for
the average user), support will come but it will take time. I have to
use Fedora (of all systems) on some of my units because it is still more
hands on and it supports my tv card and other multimedia hardware. Where
I don't need this I use FreeBSD, and then I will eventually get around
to perhaps writing drivers for the hardware I use.

I appreciate your views, but I face these issues all the time and I wish
all the time that I could use the stability of FreeBSD to run the
multimedia systems I run. As a new user once myself at one stage I
remember how frustrating it was to just get some stuff running I used
regularly and how hard it was (and even then still not quite right) to
get it doing what I needed. For a server and workstation its fantastic,
but for some home uses it ran out of features, ergo linux backup.

Plus learning linux taught me even more about the advantages and
abilities of FreeBSD and how to make it work.


  jerry
 
 
  My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even
  PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten
  used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the
  final level of FreeBSD straight-up :)
 
  Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered
  no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and
  the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my
  recommendation).
 
  Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its
  security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just
  about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly
  any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD.
 
  Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again
 
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD.

But not from Windows.


Come on, lose your thickness and let the guy be free from Vista.


I DO NOT say don't free from microsoft!

you may change Toyota to Nissan, and just sit down and drive.

But you can't change windoze to unix without learning unix from scratch.

Unix is completely different way of computing. 1000 times better IMHO, but 
you HAVE to learn it from scratch.


All this windoze-like desktop environments like KDE, Gnome etc. is just 
crap and nonsense.


Use unix as unix. it's great. but learn it.

It is NOT an alternative to windoze!
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

no - because it's not alternative for Windows Vista.


He is trying to get out of Vista, not trying to be Vista with another name.

well this is a big difference. XP is few years less of f...ng up software 
:)

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Polytropon
Excuse me for entering this discussin. You're completely right
in what you're saying, and I'ld like to add this:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 21:03:45 -0500, Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So, let him learn a meaningful server environment.

FreeBSD isn't a server only OS, it's versatile and can be used
as an excellent desktop solution. That's what I'm doing since 4.0 -
using it exclusively (!) on the desktop. And it's completely possible
without the feeling to have something missing. I'm not joking at
you, that's my real individual experience.

I changed from Linux to FreeBSD, so I had good basic knowledge,
and I never had used any Windows before, so I wasn't spoiled
by MICROS~1's strange concepts of how to do certain things, so
I cannot speak for the vast majority of computer users. :-)

To summarize: Unlike the different Windows things, you can use
FreeBSD as a desktop, as a server, and for any mixed form of
these appliances without any problems. Of course, you'll have to
learn *how* to do this, but it's not that you can't learn or do
it.

FreeBSD will open the door for you to other interesting fields
of information technology. The things you've learned using FreeBSD
will help you using OpenBSD or NetBSD, or Solaris and oder UNIXes.
If you've understood the generic principles, the whole world is
open to you.

FreeBSD always meant fun to me using the computer. I hope you'll
feel so, too.

In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?!
:-)

Don't be frightened, try out FreeBSD.


-- 
Polytropon
From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 01:00:34PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD.
 
 But not from Windows.
 
 Come on, lose your thickness and let the guy be free from Vista.
 
 I DO NOT say don't free from microsoft!
 
 you may change Toyota to Nissan, and just sit down and drive.
 
 But you can't change windoze to unix without learning unix from scratch.
 
 Unix is completely different way of computing. 1000 times better IMHO, but 
 you HAVE to learn it from scratch.
 
 All this windoze-like desktop environments like KDE, Gnome etc. is just 
 crap and nonsense.
 
 Use unix as unix. it's great. but learn it.
 
 It is NOT an alternative to windoze!

Still it goes, the OP is trying to get away from MS-Win, not find some 
non-MS clone.So, why are you trying so hard to continue to stick 
him with something MS-Win.  Allow the guy some freedom to move out of 
that mess without trying to play word games about alternatives on him.

If he wants out of MS, then let him out of MS and not consign him to
something he doesn't want.

jerry

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 03:21:27PM +1000, Da Rock wrote:

 
 On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 16:39 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
  
   On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote:
  
  
   On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote:
Dear sirs
   
please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from
windows vista
   
but i cannot understand which system to use
   
i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software
   
kind regards
   
Peter
  
   Welcome to the free world Peter!
  
   FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
   very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
   This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.
  
   This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful.
   This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know
   their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is
   not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system.
  
   My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other
   derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this
   is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The
   software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will
   usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a
   lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get
   your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content.
  
   This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system
   when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like
   comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll
   gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD.
  
   This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier
   to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse
   I often have to use for some servers at work.
  
  Amen to that.  I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot  
  themselves in the foot.  They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV
  
  ed
  
   You can learn them all if you want and use them all.
   But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder
   than the Lunix flavors out there.
  
 
 The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be
 deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way,
 and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server
 environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and
 software.

Sure they will.  Linux has lots of driver lag problems.
All but the most obscure hardware will run FreeBSD just fine too.
We have had lots of battles with Redhat and Suse.

jerry


 
 I think FreeBSD is great, but when you hit hardware issues -
 particularly new hardware - linux has the greater support for the new
 user. And there is no reason to hide heads in the sand, especially with
 new desktop hardware like multimedia (which is growing in popularity for
 the average user), support will come but it will take time. I have to
 use Fedora (of all systems) on some of my units because it is still more
 hands on and it supports my tv card and other multimedia hardware. Where
 I don't need this I use FreeBSD, and then I will eventually get around
 to perhaps writing drivers for the hardware I use.
 
 I appreciate your views, but I face these issues all the time and I wish
 all the time that I could use the stability of FreeBSD to run the
 multimedia systems I run. As a new user once myself at one stage I
 remember how frustrating it was to just get some stuff running I used
 regularly and how hard it was (and even then still not quite right) to
 get it doing what I needed. For a server and workstation its fantastic,
 but for some home uses it ran out of features, ergo linux backup.
 
 Plus learning linux taught me even more about the advantages and
 abilities of FreeBSD and how to make it work.
 
 
   jerry
  
  
   My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even
   PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten
   used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the
   final level of FreeBSD straight-up :)
  
   Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered
   no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and
   the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my
   recommendation).
  
   Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its
   security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just
   about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly
   any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD.
  
   Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again
  
   

Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Charlie Kester

* Jeremy Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-14 14:56:26 -0800]:


opinion But why are we interested in converting people?  That
borders on religious, which an operating system should not be.


I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half
the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and
improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert.  Build it
(and secure/stabilise it) and they will come.


Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like
FreeBSD?

Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases
their profits.  But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to
FreeBSD?  


FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of
developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps.  But even
if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've
done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves.  
New users who are also developers can contribute to this effort,

so it makes sense to actively recruit them.

But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer
users?  If these new users also contribute to the project, by working on
documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to
actively recruit them too.

Perhaps there's an implicit calculation that only x percent of new users
will actually contribute to the project, so if you want/need C new
contributors, you should aim to recruit N = C / x new users.

Some of the comments in this thread have expressed one of the problems
new users can bring: an expectation and demand that things work the way
they used to on their old OS.  People who voice these concerns want to
preserve the Unix philosophy and culture, so they don't welcome
immigrants who refuse to assimilate.  They don't see those immigrants as
potential contributors to the project; they see them as people who want
to replace it with a different project altogether.

...which perhaps explains why some people want to impose something like
a Unix citizenship test.

Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for
software.  For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often
discussed various graphics tools.  In his opinion, the Gimp is a
powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist
might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect
the way artists actually do their work.  He says this isn't just that
they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the
nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural,
effortless way.  He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software
engineers rather than artists. 


We need users like that, who aren't developers but who are experts in
their own domain.  How much of FreeBSD's strength as a server derives
from the fact that so many of its users have been sysadmins with a keen
awareness of the day-to-day problems in that domain? (It's also been an
important fact that many of them are developers too.)

So when new users appear and start requesting changes to make things
more like the system they came from, we shouldn't automatically classify
them as unassimilable immigrants.  We should try to understand what
they're really looking for, and whether or how our current software
supports it.  


It's especially important to understand why they left their old home.
What was the need that inspired them to consider a change?  How did
their old OS fail to meet that need?

Sometimes our answer to them is going to be, No, sorry, our project
isn't designed to do that or That isn't one of our project's goals.
Maybe you should consider Project Y instead.  There's nothing wrong
with that kind of answer.  It's coheres with the Unix philosophy of
clarity of purpose (e.g., tools that do one thing and do it well.)

So, in conclusion, we DON'T need new users because growing the userbase
is good in itself. Sometimes growth is cancerous, and kills the body.
We DO need new users insofar as they help us meet the goals of our
project. 


(And sometimes new users suggest new goals for us to pursue.)

-- Charlie



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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Charlie Kester

* Da Rock [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-16 15:21:27 +1000]:



The reason for sending the OP to linux first is they will not be
deterred by the driver and hardware issues. Linux IS easier in this way,
and has a greater support for hardware that is used outside of a server
environment. It also allows them to learn the *nix methodology and
software.


To the extent that Linux succeeds in making things just work, it will
prevent or at least delay the user's learning the Unix way.

Most of us got our Unix knowledge the old-fashioned way: we earned it.
We stumbled over one problem or another and fought our way through to a
solution.

When things just work, only the technically curious will explore
beneath the hood to see exactly how they work.

Maybe we shouldn't make it a goal that every user should have that kind
of deep-water knowledge?

Should it really be a goal that every user become familiar with the
shell and commandline tools?  Why not let them live happily ever after
in a point-and-click world?

-- Charlie
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread R Dicaire
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Charlie Kester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Users can also contribute by helping to refine the requirements for
 software.  For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often
 discussed various graphics tools.  In his opinion, the Gimp is a
 powerful tool which provides almost every tool or technique an artist
 might want, but it's unusable because its user interface doesn't reflect
 the way artists actually do their work.  He says this isn't just that
 they're used to Photoshop or whatever; there's something about the
 nature of the task that the Gimp fails to accommodate in a natural,
 effortless way.  He says the Gimp feels like a tool designed by software
 engineers rather than artists.

Interesting analogy, and your overall point makes sense. Here's a
question regarding the attitude towards moves to new software and the
expectation it behave like $OTHER_PROGRAM. Photoshop had to be learned
to be used initially. The questions are, does a user *want* to spend
the time to learn a new interface? What do they gain by doing so? Is
there a commercial drive behind the change?
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert.  Build it
(and secure/stabilise it) and they will come.


Indeed, what IS the value of more users to a volunteer project like
FreeBSD?


to some level - better driver support. but 
windows-converters-seeking-for-nicer-windows don't write drivers.


this level is OK, more users can make only harm.

exactly what happened with linux.

as heavyweight sponsors did. they pay but request not just adding 
drivers but to add strange-but-trendy features and solutions that take 
system's quality down quickly.


exactly that happened to NetBSD. i recently installed newest NetBSD 
version just to look at it. it was damn slow and even slower under high 
load!!


not mentioning linux that got just billion$ total sposoring from IBM.


Microsoft, Apple, etc. want more users on their OS because it increases
their profits.  But who gets more money if ten thousand users switch to
FreeBSD?


we - don't

FreeBSD developers may get, but not much more than now. but the danger of 
getting heavyweight sponsor is increasing.



FreeBSD already has a large enough user base to attract the attention of
developers deciding which platforms to target with their apps.  But even
if it didn't, it has a large developer community of its own, and they've
done a great job porting apps, as well as creating new apps themselves.  New


exactly. more users means more developers only to some amount!!

myself for example. i don't classify myself as expert, but IMHO i know 
more about unix than 80-90% people on that list, and i did no contribution 
except few sent-pr, some with patches!!


will adding 10 times more less-than-average skilled people help at all?

No - only make more mess, and will drive experienced unix users AWAY from 
FreeBSD just after reading that lists.


And yes - we WANT users of other unix-like systems to switch to FreeBSD
just because it's one of the best (if not the best) unix in the world.
And they WILL help making it even better.


But why should we want to increase the number of ordinary, non-developer
users?


we should NOT! i write  EVERY TIME about it.


documentation or other non-programming tasks, then it makes sense to
actively recruit them too.


is there much work needed on documentation.
it's EXCELLENT, contrary to linux with huge user base!


software.  For example, my son is an animator and he and I have often
discussed various graphics tools.  In his opinion, the Gimp is a


discussion about gimp and photoshop is OFF TOPIC.

it's not FreeBSD specific.

maybe discussion about gimp FreeBSD port - yes, but not about gimp itself 
and about it's pluses and minuses.


it's bad that over 50% of topics on that list (or more) are OFF TOPIC.

this list should have a moderator.

someone that will just keep this list on-topic. no questions like how to 
do this and this in KDE or is program A better than program B, but 
questions like


why KDE works faster/slower than under linux or why program A's 
function X crashes on FreeBSD, while working fine under Solaris or


i wrote program for linux some time ago. i want it to compile on FreeBSD, 
but i use  library function that doesn't exist/work different on 
FreeBSD. what should i do?


this list NEEDS A MODERATOR. DEFINITELY.

Even high skilled people keeps such off-topic thread going, because they 
want help someone. but it make a complete mess.

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar


Interesting analogy, and your overall point makes sense. Here's a
question regarding the attitude towards moves to new software and the
expectation it behave like $OTHER_PROGRAM. Photoshop had to be learned


exactly. for experienced gimp user moving to photoshop will not be easy 
too.


but it's completely off topic.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Still it goes, the OP is trying to get away from MS-Win, not find some
non-MS clone


in EVERY such post i see exactly opposite. they want windoze clones!
they don't ask about how to learn unix, what to read, they didn't read 
even basic manuals, or if so - just glanced.


actually - there is a market niche for true non-microsoft windoze clone!
it's strange noone try to fill it. it's millions of $ to earn!

something working like windoze, running windoze .exe/.dll binaries and 
windows compatible installer but for example not requiring gig of RAM, 
powerful CPU running 10 times faster (not difficult to achieve) etc...




i remember many years ago installing linux first time (linux was quite 
good that time). i spent 2 months on it reading everything needed and 
learning BEFORE asking questions on mailing lists! because i knew nothing 
about unix at first.


I knew only DOS and windoze 95 before, DOS isn't an OS at all, but that 
is adventage too. but i needed something that made full use of my 25Mhz 
486.


Windoze definitely wasn't good in it. it just wasted hardware resources 
giving nothing. that's why i tried to seek something different.

and found linux.. after some time NetBSD, then FreeBSD.



today - most of these wannabe-FreeBSD-users just don't want to pay for 
windoze. nothing else!

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning.

But it is NOT windoze replacement.


It is if you put it on the system instead of MS-Win stuff.
It will totally replace it if you use fdisk to create a FreeBSD slice


no need for slices. i don't create slices on any system.


and then partition that slice and install FreeBSD.   Win will be totally
gone and the user will be merrily using something better.

Of course, if the user had said he wanted something like Vista to
run on his machine, then it wouldn't fit that category.  But that is
not what he said.

but exactly what he expected. and you know this.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Charlie Kester

* Wojciech Puchar [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-11-16 22:41:27 +0100]:


discussion about gimp and photoshop is OFF TOPIC.


Agreed. I introduced it as an EXAMPLE of one way a new user might
contribute a valuable perspective and therefore why we might want to
recruit him into the FreeBSD community.  


I do NOT want to see a discussion of the Gimp versus Photoshop.

I *do* want to see a discussion of the FreeBSD project's goals, as part
of the answer the OP's question about which platform to use instead of
Windows. The more people understand what FreeBSD's design goals are, the
better they'll be able to decide if it also meets their goals.

Wojciech, you seem to be saying that accommodating Windoze users is
not and should not be a goal for FreeBSD.  I respect that opinion.  I
just want to know if it's shared by the project leaders.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:57:31PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning.
 
 But it is NOT windoze replacement.
 
 It is if you put it on the system instead of MS-Win stuff.
 It will totally replace it if you use fdisk to create a FreeBSD slice
 
 no need for slices. i don't create slices on any system.
 
 and then partition that slice and install FreeBSD.   Win will be totally
 gone and the user will be merrily using something better.
 
 Of course, if the user had said he wanted something like Vista to
 run on his machine, then it wouldn't fit that category.  But that is
 not what he said.
 but exactly what he expected. and you know this.

Now that wouldn't hold up in court.

jerry   
   
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

I *do* want to see a discussion of the FreeBSD project's goals, as part
of the answer the OP's question about which platform to use instead of
Windows. The more people understand what FreeBSD's design goals are, the
better they'll be able to decide if it also meets their goals.


they can read it on webpage.


Wojciech, you seem to be saying that accommodating Windoze users is
not and should not be a goal for FreeBSD.  I respect that opinion.  I
just want to know if it's shared by the project leaders.


me to. it's important. i'd like to plan ahead. if their opinion is 
opposite, FreeBSD will turn into crap within 2-3 years as every other 
project. there are no exceptions to that rule.

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Steven Susbauer
Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 I *do* want to see a discussion of the FreeBSD project's goals, as part
 of the answer the OP's question about which platform to use instead of
 Windows. The more people understand what FreeBSD's design goals are, the
 better they'll be able to decide if it also meets their goals.
 
 they can read it on webpage.
 
 Wojciech, you seem to be saying that accommodating Windoze users is
 not and should not be a goal for FreeBSD.  I respect that opinion.  I
 just want to know if it's shared by the project leaders.
 
 me to. it's important. i'd like to plan ahead. if their opinion is
 opposite, FreeBSD will turn into crap within 2-3 years as every other
 project. there are no exceptions to that rule.

I do not believe there needs to be an actual *effort* to accommodate
Windows users, there are other projects with that as one of their goals
which are doing quite well. If accommodating a Windows user is simply
allowing for a usable desktop system, then FreeBSD works fine. One man's
crap is another man's favorite operating system. I do think there does
*not* need to be effort to run off  Windows users who may consider
switching to FreeBSD. There is nothing wrong with them using FreeBSD,
and if they don't like it they can choose something else. It doesn't
matter if they have previous experience with a *nix operating system, if
they are able to figure it out then it is just as good as figuring out
something else.

I find it a bit disheartening that at least one side of this topic has
begun to resemble Scott Adams' Unix quote, which I do think is a
misrepresentation of the community as a whole.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature


Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-16 Thread Wojciech Puchar

which are doing quite well. If accommodating a Windows user is simply
allowing for a usable desktop system, then FreeBSD works fine.


what you mean usable desktop system?
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-15 Thread Yeef CN
Windows XP is an alternative

On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Steven Susbauer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 
  opinion
  But why are we interested in converting people?  That borders on
  religious, which an operating system should not be.
 
  exactly.
 
  it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already
  using some flavor of unix.
 
  One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD,
  and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD.
 
  But not from Windows.
 
 I disagree strongly. If someone has the interest and ability (if only to
 read docs), they could certainly change from Windows to FreeBSD. The
 point from your quoted post appears to be that it is not a religion to
 be converted to from anything, rather a tool that some will use if they
 want to, or won't. There's nothing wrong with that.

 Depending on what someone is hoping to accomplish, I would certainly
 suggest FreeBSD as a suitable tool. It is no sweat off my back if they
 use something different though.


 To the OP if you're still reading; read through the handbook beforehand.
 At least, see if it's really what you want to get into. There are
 BSD-based desktop systems that may suit you better if you're looking for
 a more familiar experience. There are also many newbie-friendly Linux
 distributions that could suit you also.




-- 
new city  new thoughts  new men
please choose the freesoftware
to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-15 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Windows XP is an alternative


excellent for windows vista alternative. it is much faster (while still 
slow of course), and there are fixes available that allows to use any new drivers 
from vista under XP.

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-15 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 01:22:00AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 The OP asked advice on an OS alternative to Vista and asked about
 FreeBSD. Telling him that FreeBSD is a good choice is not making
 a religious statement.  It is just answering his question in an
 honest manner.
 
 no - because it's not alternative for Windows Vista.

He is trying to get out of Vista, not trying to be Vista with another name.

jerry


 
 Windows XP is an alternative.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-15 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 01:21:04AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 
 opinion
 But why are we interested in converting people?  That borders on
 religious, which an operating system should not be.
 
 exactly.
 
 it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already 
 using some flavor of unix.
 
 One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD, 
 and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD.
 
 But not from Windows.

Come on, lose your thickness and let the guy be free from Vista.
Tha is his purpose - not a religious conversion.
He wants to use the computer, but not be stuck with certain Northwest
USA environments.So, let him learn a meaningful server environment.

Quit niggling about things not part of the situation just because you
have some prejudices.

jerry

 
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-15 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 01:18:07AM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 
 FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
 very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
 This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.
 
 
 simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning.
 
 But it is NOT windoze replacement.

It is if you put it on the system instead of MS-Win stuff.
It will totally replace it if you use fdisk to create a FreeBSD slice
and then partition that slice and install FreeBSD.   Win will be totally 
gone and the user will be merrily using something better.

Of course, if the user had said he wanted something like Vista to
run on his machine, then it wouldn't fit that category.  But that is
not what he said.

jerry

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Aggelidis Nikos
You have to be more specific, if you need actual help

if you are not sure that FreeBSD will work with your hardware, you may
try it and see what happens For the software part: FreeBSD has a
large collection of software often refered to as ports.But again you
have to be more specific, tell the list what you want to do... and
people will help you

-nikos
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Wojciech Puchar
please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from windows 
vista


but i cannot understand which system to use


maybe windows XP?



i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software


simply check it.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Jim Pazarena

Wojciech Puchar wrote:
please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from 
windows vista


but i cannot understand which system to use


maybe windows XP?



i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software


simply check it.


unless you think this may be a troll,
your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD.
--
Jim Pazarena  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:19:34PM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:

 Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from 
 windows vista
 
 but i cannot understand which system to use
 
 maybe windows XP?
 
 
 i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software
 
 simply check it.
 
 unless you think this may be a troll,
 your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD.

Yes, curt answers are generally not helpful to newbies.
They might occasionally (rarely) be relevant for experienced userd
but are not welcome in circumstances like this.

The reply is suggesting the Original Poster (OP) just try out FreeBSD
and see if it works for him.   Really, that is a good idea.  But there is
help available before that in the FreeBSD Handbook and the FAQ and
some online publications available for free around the net.

So, go to the FreeBSD web page.   
Click on the  'Learn More'  and  'New to FreeBSD?' links  about 1/3 the way
down the page and read what is there and follow some of the more interesting
links.   Then click on 'Documentation' and get a little familiar with that.

By then, you should at least have some idea of what FreeBSD is all about.

Then you can ask more specific questions or more importantly, downlod the
most recent version (7.1 by then) and install it, preferably on a fresh 
disk, and play around.  You can't hurt anything that can't be fixed by 
just trashing it all and starting over.

FreeBSD is very different from Microsloth stuff.   Most especially it has
a completely different attitude toward the way to develop, install, administer
and use an Operating System.   There is much less GUI stuff and more learning
about how the system actually works -- but along with that there is much
more control over the system and much more freedom to make it do what
you really want rather than what some marketing suit thinks you should
want to do with it.   It is really all layed out wide open for you to dig
in and do what you want.  But, because of that, you have to take some
responsibility to learn the how and what and why of it.

So, have fun,

jerry


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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Matthew Seaman

peter wrote:

Dear sirs

please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from 
windows vista


but i cannot understand which system to use

i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software



FreeBSD (or any Unix/Linux for that matter) is very different to Windows, and 
it can be a daunting task to get up to speed with it.

FreeBSD in my humble opinion is the best-of-breed Unix out there for 
server-class applications.  Which is cool if you're one of those hairy 
Unix types that can wrangle the command line, and configure a dozen 
instances of Apache before breakfast, but maybe not if you are an 
ordinary mortal that just wants to surf the web, listen to a few tunes, 
send e-mail, chat on IRC, maybe edit the odd document.


While the properties of FreeBSD that make it an excellent Server OS 
also make it an excellent foundation for a Desktop OS, it doesn't come 
with the layer of middle-ware that smooths over the user experience[*].  
Of course, such software is readily available, but -- catch 22 -- you 
don't have the sort of Window/Icons/MousePointer environment 
immediately available to let you easily install the desired WIMP environment.


I suggest going to http://www.pcbsd.org/ and grabbing an ISO of PC-BSD. 
This is an integrated user environment based on FreeBSD, but with much
more the sort of graphical interface you'ld be used to as a Windows 
user. It also has quantities of useful help and advice for people 
wanting to make that first step away from Windows, plus help with 
working out if all of your hardware is supported under the OS.


Windows software will not in general work under Free- or PC-BSD.  There 
are emulation environments that you can install, and these are 
sufficient to run a lot of software including a number of popular 
games, but there is no guarantee that any particular application will 
work.  There are Open Source alternatives to the majority of popular 
Windows Apps (Firefox instead of IE, Thunderbird instead of OutLook, 
OpenOffice instead of Word+Excel+PowerPoint+etc., Gimp instead of 
Photoshop, ...)  but these are independently developed applications 
with their own concepts of how things should be done, not slavish 
copies of the Windows equivalents.  The differences can be frustrating at first, but persistence will pay dividends.


Cheers,

Matthew

[*] Yes, all you pedants out there: the software is on the FreeBSD 
installation media and you can install it at the same time as you 
install the OS.  True.  The point is, however, that it won't 'just
work' without at least a bit of configuration involving doing some command-line stuff.  Plus you have to know /which/ of all those 
software packages it is you actually want to install -- there's 
actually two major contenders (KDE, Gnome) and any number of minor 
contenders to choose from, and any number of choices and optional bits 
to decide on -- fine if you're familiar with all that, but still a real 
hurdle for the uninitiated.


--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   7 Priory Courtyard
 Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Da Rock

On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote:
 Dear sirs
 
 please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from 
 windows vista
 
 but i cannot understand which system to use
 
 i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software
 
 kind regards
 
 Peter

Welcome to the free world Peter!

FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.

This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful.
This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know
their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is
not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system.

My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other
derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this
is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The
software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will
usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a
lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get
your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content.

This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system
when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like
comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll
gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD.

My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even
PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten
used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the
final level of FreeBSD straight-up :)

Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered
no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and
the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my
recommendation).

Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its
security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just
about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly
any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD.

Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote:

 
 On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote:
  Dear sirs
  
  please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from 
  windows vista
  
  but i cannot understand which system to use
  
  i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software
  
  kind regards
  
  Peter
 
 Welcome to the free world Peter!
 
 FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
 very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
 This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.
 
 This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful.
 This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know
 their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is
 not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system.
 
 My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other
 derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this
 is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The
 software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will
 usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a
 lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get
 your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content.
 
 This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system
 when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like
 comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll
 gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD.

This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier
to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse
I often have to use for some servers at work.

You can learn them all if you want and use them all.
But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder
than the Lunix flavors out there.

jerry

 
 My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even
 PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten
 used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the
 final level of FreeBSD straight-up :)
 
 Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered
 no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and
 the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my
 recommendation).
 
 Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its
 security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just
 about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly
 any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD.
 
 Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again
 
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread eculp

Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:


On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote:



On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote:
 Dear sirs

 please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from
 windows vista

 but i cannot understand which system to use

 i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software

 kind regards

 Peter

Welcome to the free world Peter!

FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.

This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful.
This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know
their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is
not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system.

My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other
derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this
is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The
software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will
usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a
lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get
your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content.

This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system
when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like
comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll
gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD.


This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier
to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse
I often have to use for some servers at work.


Amen to that.  I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot  
themselves in the foot.  They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV


ed


You can learn them all if you want and use them all.
But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder
than the Lunix flavors out there.

jerry



My suggestion would be to get used to the *nixes with Ubuntu or even
PCBSD (which is a FreeBSD variant for newer users), once you have gotten
used to that give yourself another steep learning curve and jump to the
final level of FreeBSD straight-up :)

Keep in touch with this list and you'll get all your questions answered
no matter how ridiculous they may seem to the seasoned users here, and
the Ubuntu list is nearly as helpful from my observation (hence my
recommendation).

Once you have the experience you'll definitely want FreeBSD for its
security, stability, and more. You can run a desktop, a server, or just
about whatever you want on it. The possibilties are endless with nearly
any *nix system, but the stability can only be found with BSD.

Good luck with your endeavours and welcome, again

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Jeremy Chadwick
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:19:34PM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
 Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from  
 windows vista

 but i cannot understand which system to use

 maybe windows XP?


 i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software

 simply check it.

 unless you think this may be a troll,
 your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD.

opinion
But why are we interested in converting people?  That borders on
religious, which an operating system should not be.

People should use whatever OS gets the job done for them, be it Windows,
FreeBSD, Linux, OS X, Solaris, DOS, whatever.  The OP's question is
vague in a sincere way; users who want to move away from an OS often
hope there is a simple answer, when in fact there isn't.

My point is that focusing on converting someone, I feel, is the wrong
way to go about showing the world the operating system is worth using.
To me, it's just just another manipulative form of marketing; and I
don't know about you, but marketing doesn't sway me when it comes to
most things (*especially* computing-oriented things).  Marketing often
turns people off to things, rather than on.

I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half
the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and
improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert.  Build it
(and secure/stabilise it) and they will come.

I guess I just see things in a different light than most.
/opinion

-- 
| Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com |
| Parodius Networking   http://www.parodius.com/ |
| UNIX Systems Administrator  Mountain View, CA, USA |
| Making life hard for others since 1977.  PGP: 4BD6C0CB |
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Glyn Millington
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:

 On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 08:00:23AM +1000, Da Rock wrote:


 On Fri, 2008-11-14 at 11:58 +0100, peter wrote:
  Dear sirs
 
  please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from
  windows vista
 
  but i cannot understand which system to use
 
  i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software


Take a look at the FreeBSD FAQ here - section 4 is the one you need.


http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/index.html

Some research om the hardware front can save you lots of pain later.



 
  kind regards
 
  Peter

 Welcome to the free world Peter!

 FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
 very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
 This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.

 This list is /very/ helpful, others may not be so friendly or helpful.
 This is great for newbies who need some real help in getting to know
 their system and fixing problems, but there are times when even this is
 not enough if you don't have enough experience with the system.

 My advice is this: get used to the *nix (linux, unix and other
 derivatives) systems and how they do things, and the best way to do this
 is to use linux which is like a halfway house for windows users. The
 software available for all systems is HUGE. And all this software will
 usually run on both systems. The difference is linux will take care of a
 lot of maintenance for you (like vista), but still allows you to get
 your hands dirty hacking the system to your hearts content.

 This is not to deter you from using FreeBSD - linux is a tough system
 when compared to windows, but FreeBSD is even tougher; bit like
 comparing a tank to fort knox. But the ease of use and experience you'll
 gain from using linux will be more forgiving than using FreeBSD.

 This is just wrong.I have always found FreeBSD to be easier
 to install and configure the way I want it that the Red Hat or Suse
 I often have to use for some servers at work.

 Amen to that.  I've converted many Ubuntu users who had shot
 themselves in the foot.  They are now happy freeBSD users. YMMV

 ed

 You can learn them all if you want and use them all.
 But, don't be bullied in to believing that FreeBSD is any harder
 than the Lunix flavors out there.

Well, depending on the needs, expectations and background of the learner
I guess that sometimes it might feel harder! Again YMMV.

One thing which makes the transition easier is the marvellous FreeBSD
handbook and documentation.  

Two websites I found helpful were (and are!) Roland Smith's FreeBSD page
here 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/freebsd/

(Thank you Roland!!)


and this one


http://www.math.colostate.edu/~reinholz/freebsd/freebsd.html

Good luck,


atb

Glyn
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Jerry McAllister
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 02:56:26PM -0800, Jeremy Chadwick wrote:

 On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:19:34PM -0800, Jim Pazarena wrote:
  Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  please can you help me i am totally confused i want to change from  
  windows vista
 
  but i cannot understand which system to use
 
  maybe windows XP?
 
 
  i am not sure if freebsd will work with my hardware and software
 
  simply check it.
 
  unless you think this may be a troll,
  your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD.
 
 opinion
 But why are we interested in converting people?  That borders on
 religious, which an operating system should not be.

The OP asked advice on an OS alternative to Vista and asked about 
FreeBSD. Telling him that FreeBSD is a good choice is not making
a religious statement.  It is just answering his question in an
honest manner.

jerry



 
 People should use whatever OS gets the job done for them, be it Windows,
 FreeBSD, Linux, OS X, Solaris, DOS, whatever.  The OP's question is
 vague in a sincere way; users who want to move away from an OS often
 hope there is a simple answer, when in fact there isn't.
 
 My point is that focusing on converting someone, I feel, is the wrong
 way to go about showing the world the operating system is worth using.
 To me, it's just just another manipulative form of marketing; and I
 don't know about you, but marketing doesn't sway me when it comes to
 most things (*especially* computing-oriented things).  Marketing often
 turns people off to things, rather than on.
 
 I'm not saying we don't need new users -- I'm saying: if we took half
 the energy used converting people and applied it to fixing bugs and
 improving FreeBSD, there wouldn't be a need to convert.  Build it
 (and secure/stabilise it) and they will come.
 
 I guess I just see things in a different light than most.
 /opinion
 
 -- 
 | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com |
 | Parodius Networking   http://www.parodius.com/ |
 | UNIX Systems Administrator  Mountain View, CA, USA |
 | Making life hard for others since 1977.  PGP: 4BD6C0CB |
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Wojciech Puchar

simply check it.


unless you think this may be a troll,
your comments seem a great way to chase away a potential convert to FreeBSD.

indeed.

conversion from windows to unix that way is bad idea.

if you/others will help them, soon we will have another linux - windows 
competitor and see discussions or even articles in newspapers about 
differences in windows and FreeBSD like well, FreeBSD has different 
windows coloration and icons.


Unix is NOT windows competitor. unix is completely different way of 
computing.


Now - linux is windows competitor, and i still remember times when it was 
nice and very usable OS.



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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Wojciech Puchar


FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable system, but that said it is also
very hands on - the opposite extreme of vista which is all hands off.
This means that you will have a very steep learning curve.



simply reading FreeBSD handbook will be the best move for the beginning.

But it is NOT windoze replacement.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Wojciech Puchar


opinion
But why are we interested in converting people?  That borders on
religious, which an operating system should not be.


exactly.

it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already 
using some flavor of unix.


One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD, 
and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD.


But not from Windows.

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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Wojciech Puchar

The OP asked advice on an OS alternative to Vista and asked about
FreeBSD. Telling him that FreeBSD is a good choice is not making
a religious statement.  It is just answering his question in an
honest manner.


no - because it's not alternative for Windows Vista.

Windows XP is an alternative.
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Re: re changing from vista

2008-11-14 Thread Steven Susbauer
Wojciech Puchar wrote:

 opinion
 But why are we interested in converting people?  That borders on
 religious, which an operating system should not be.
 
 exactly.
 
 it's a good idea to tell people about trying FreeBSD if they are already
 using some flavor of unix.
 
 One can be converted from Solaris to FreeBSD, from NetBSD to OpenBSD,
 and (sometimes) from linux to FreeBSD.
 
 But not from Windows.
 
I disagree strongly. If someone has the interest and ability (if only to
read docs), they could certainly change from Windows to FreeBSD. The
point from your quoted post appears to be that it is not a religion to
be converted to from anything, rather a tool that some will use if they
want to, or won't. There's nothing wrong with that.

Depending on what someone is hoping to accomplish, I would certainly
suggest FreeBSD as a suitable tool. It is no sweat off my back if they
use something different though.


To the OP if you're still reading; read through the handbook beforehand.
At least, see if it's really what you want to get into. There are
BSD-based desktop systems that may suit you better if you're looking for
a more familiar experience. There are also many newbie-friendly Linux
distributions that could suit you also.



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