Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On 2007-01-19 15:21, Ceri Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 09:42:54AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: I think the biggest problem with Microsoft MUAs is not where they position the cursor, but the difficulty they cause in editing the text. My editor also positions the cursor at the very top when I reply to a message. But it also makes it possible to tidy things up. To be fair to Microsoft (or perhaps this makes it even worse), their Mac development team clearly understand this, as Entourage (the Mac equivalent of Outlook) doesn't do any of the tens of stupid things that Outlook does. Quite right. I have been talking with some colleagues recently about some of the things that *even* Entourage fails to do (i.e. wrapping of text and quoted material), but it is definitely a huge improvement over Outlook :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On Thursday January 18, 2007 at 08:33:32 (PM) Jay Chandler wrote: Murray Taylor wrote: -Original Message- From: Greg Albrecht [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 19 January 2007 11:42 AM To: Murray Taylor Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term) On 18/01/07, Murray Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. Greg Exactly! And not only my .sig which I do have control over whether I add it or not, and also the [EMAIL PROTECTED] stupid corporate disclaimer also (over which I have no control) sigh mjt (no .sig) since i seem to be in the mood to muddy the waters today: have you considered using a mail address outside of your corporation? one which doesn't automatically add that disclaimer. i've never been fond of using my work email address for anything outside of work, but that's me. maybe this is an obvious answer but it is one way to please the etiquette overlords. -g -- Greg Albrecht ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) I started using the lists from work years ago when I was establishing the FreeBSD servers and it was easier to get QA stuff done... Since then the weenies have come along and changed out a perfectly servicable Postfix / Cyrus mail system with M$ Exchg(barf), and the beanies wanted the disclaimers .. Well, if they pay the bills then it is their right to do as they please. I guess you could always start your own company and enforce any regulations you desired. sigh Have any of these disclaimers ever proven to be even the slightest bit legally enforceable? I mean, for God's sake, they're at the bottom of the message, essentially telling you not to read the message you just read. I read something in a computer magazine, I am not sure which one, that clearly stated that those disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on. -- Gerard ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 03:24:44PM -0800, Greg Albrecht wrote: On 18/01/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top-posting defined simply ... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, so the bad habit has developed across the world both domestically and in businesses, to write there, rather than continuing the email thread at the bottom. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. i've been wanting to chime in on this. perhaps it should be taken into consideration that a good number of MODERN email clients support automatic threading of messages. this allows me to see each reply to a message after the original message, in succession. i understand that different people configure and use their email clients in different ways, but why is there such a pandering towards one versus the other. my email software (gmail right now but has been mutt and thunderbird in the past) makes it really easy for me to get the context of a message as soon as it arrives. perhaps it's time for the rest of the world to step up and add auto-threading to their mta's? Emails can arrive in a different order than they were sent, and people do not always keep all the emails they receive. There it is often the case that people do not have the original message to get the context from. -- Insert your favourite quote here. Erik Trulsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 04:31:41PM +1100, Murray Taylor wrote: Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, Actually, Entourage does not. While we're on the subject of etiquette, those insist on having this much crap at the bottom of their mails, might like to include a sig delimiter: --- The information transmitted in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of it, or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons and/or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please inform the sender and/or addressee immediately and delete the material. E-mails may not be secure, may contain computer viruses and may be corrupted in transmission. Please carefully check this e-mail (and any attachment) accordingly. No warranties are given and no liability is accepted for any loss or damage caused by such matters. --- ### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses by Bytecraft ### ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ceri -- That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere pgpZWW6EOFbpu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 09:42:54AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: I think the biggest problem with Microsoft MUAs is not where they position the cursor, but the difficulty they cause in editing the text. My editor also positions the cursor at the very top when I reply to a message. But it also makes it possible to tidy things up. To be fair to Microsoft (or perhaps this makes it even worse), their Mac development team clearly understand this, as Entourage (the Mac equivalent of Outlook) doesn't do any of the tens of stupid things that Outlook does. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. When they are correctly formatted (line-feed,hyphen,hyphen,space), good MUAs can do this automatically. Ceri -- That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere pgpkqYP0AYgtW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 11:32:38AM +1100, Murray Taylor wrote: Exactly! And not only my .sig which I do have control over whether I add it or not, and also the [EMAIL PROTECTED] stupid corporate disclaimer also (over which I have no control) sigh Though you could presumably add an empty .sig which would prevent others from having to delete the rubbish every time they wanted to reply to you :) Ceri -- That must be wonderful! I don't understand it at all. -- Moliere pgp4p88nr0FyI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On Friday January 19, 2007 at 10:21:24 (AM) Ceri Davies wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 09:42:54AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: I think the biggest problem with Microsoft MUAs is not where they position the cursor, but the difficulty they cause in editing the text. My editor also positions the cursor at the very top when I reply to a message. But it also makes it possible to tidy things up. To be fair to Microsoft (or perhaps this makes it even worse), their Mac development team clearly understand this, as Entourage (the Mac equivalent of Outlook) doesn't do any of the tens of stupid things that Outlook does. Actually, the MS Live Beta version can be configured to place the cursor at the end when replying. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. No one needs a 10+ line signature. Perhaps they are compromising for other shortcomings. When they are correctly formatted (line-feed,hyphen,hyphen,space), good MUAs can do this automatically. I think the problem can be more readily attributed to the theory of PEBKC. -- Gerard ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
Gerard Seibert wrote: On Friday January 19, 2007 at 10:21:24 (AM) Ceri Davies wrote: On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 09:42:54AM +1030, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: I think the biggest problem with Microsoft MUAs is not where they position the cursor, but the difficulty they cause in editing the text. My editor also positions the cursor at the very top when I reply to a message. But it also makes it possible to tidy things up. To be fair to Microsoft (or perhaps this makes it even worse), their Mac development team clearly understand this, as Entourage (the Mac equivalent of Outlook) doesn't do any of the tens of stupid things that Outlook does. Actually, the MS Live Beta version can be configured to place the cursor at the end when replying. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. No one needs a 10+ line signature. Perhaps they are compromising for other shortcomings. When they are correctly formatted (line-feed,hyphen,hyphen,space), good MUAs can do this automatically. I think the problem can be more readily attributed to the theory of PEBKC. There are also patches for Outlook to implement proper quoting and replying. Ta, Joe ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, so the bad habit has developed across the world both domestically and in businesses, to write there, rather than continuing the email thread at the bottom. This behavior of business-oriented email systems (not just M$ -- CC:Mail does the same thing IIRC) may have originated with customer preference. The reasoning, which *does not* apply to News or to archived email lists, goes something like this: * A good many business threads start out as informal conversations between two, or among a few, often not including any archived mailing list. It is not at all uncommon for such a thread to develop a need for a larger audience along the way, and in such cases those joining later need a way to review the entire history -- not just a few selective quotes which at best were intended to remind participants of the context. The critical aspect is that, by the time the participants realize that this particular discussion really should have been archived, it's a bit late in the game to do so; thus this argument clearly does not apply to lists which are archived at the outset. * To allow for that eventuality, some (many?) businesses encourage participants in informal discussion threads to retain the whole message history (so that, when someone needs to be added mid- stream, the history is inherently included with the forwarded message). This argument implicitly presumes that email bandwidth, and to a lesser extent storage, are of little consequence -- which certainly was not true of widely-distributed lists in the days when most message traffic was carried over voice-grade phone lines at 9600 BPS or less and a *large* disk farm contained maybe 1GB! * If one is going to retain the whole history anyway, it is easier for the recipients to read the latest contribution at the top. The only time someone has to navigate to the bottom is when they initially become involved in an ongoing discussion. The bottom line is that top-posting makes no sense at all in News, or on an archived email list, because the history can easily be retrieved as needed. It may have a legitimate place in unarchived, informal discussions, especially in business situations where the audience may need to expand. Outfits like M$ probably believe, and perhaps with some justification, that most of their customers fall into the latter usage pattern. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
From: Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dak Ghatikachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting ,
What do we mean by top-posting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting
And those who are pedantic and whiney about it are pathetic twits.
{^_-}
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Re: What is this mean by this term
In response to jdow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dak Ghatikachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting And those who are pedantic and whiney about it are pathetic twits. What was the point to that comment? -- Bill Moran Collaborative Fusion Inc. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
Bill Moran wrote: In response to jdow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dak Ghatikachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting And those who are pedantic and whiney about it are pathetic twits. What was the point to that comment? Hardly, top posting breaks the logical order of conversation, and makes tracing conversations difficult. Joe ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
Bill Moran wrote: In response to jdow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From: Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dak Ghatikachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting And those who are pedantic and whiney about it are pathetic twits. What was the point to that comment? Please don't feed the trolls. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:51, Hugo Silva wrote: Please don't feed the trolls. The weird thing is that I'd personally vouch for jdow not being a troll. I'm not sure where that came from. -- Kirk Strauser pgp1HsMf6qBzQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
[heavily trimmed, subject line clarified, format breakage recovered] On Thursday, 18 January 2007 at 16:31:41 +1100, Murray Taylor wrote: On Thursday, 18 January 2007 11:48 AM, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote: What if someone is emailing from a thread while I am replying at the same time, would that not happen ? Would I be getting complains again that I am top-posting Top-posting defined simply ... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? Yes, that's a nice one. Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, so the bad habit has developed across the world both domestically and in businesses, to write there, rather than continuing the email thread at the bottom. I think the biggest problem with Microsoft MUAs is not where they position the cursor, but the difficulty they cause in editing the text. My editor also positions the cursor at the very top when I reply to a message. But it also makes it possible to tidy things up. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers. pgpw5QifRmGZU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On 18/01/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top-posting defined simply ... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, so the bad habit has developed across the world both domestically and in businesses, to write there, rather than continuing the email thread at the bottom. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. i've been wanting to chime in on this. perhaps it should be taken into consideration that a good number of MODERN email clients support automatic threading of messages. this allows me to see each reply to a message after the original message, in succession. i understand that different people configure and use their email clients in different ways, but why is there such a pandering towards one versus the other. my email software (gmail right now but has been mutt and thunderbird in the past) makes it really easy for me to get the context of a message as soon as it arrives. perhaps it's time for the rest of the world to step up and add auto-threading to their mta's? just my $0.02. -g ps: there's no need to reiterate how 'hard' it is for you to have to 'scroll down' to read the original message in a reply, how is that any different than me having to scroll down to read your reply? -- Greg Albrecht ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) An Indie, Hip Hop and IDM Podcast: The Letter G http://theletterg.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 03:24:44PM -0800, Greg Albrecht wrote: On 18/01/07, Greg 'groggy' Lehey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. i've been wanting to chime in on this. perhaps it should be taken into consideration that a good number of MODERN email clients support automatic threading of messages. this allows me to see each reply to a message after the original message, in succession. i understand that different people configure and use their email clients in different ways, but why is there such a pandering towards one versus the other. my email software (gmail right now but has been mutt and thunderbird in the past) makes it really easy for me to get the context of a message as soon as it arrives. perhaps it's time for the rest of the world to step up and add auto-threading to their mta's? Just a nitpick: wouldn't it be the MUA's job? Also, threading in the MUA isn't perfect because sometimes the headers are munged and the threading gets broken. The MUA can try to correct this, though it may well be unable to. Gmail, itself, appears susceptible--haven't you ever seen singleton messages that are clearly part of a mail thread? ps: there's no need to reiterate how 'hard' it is for you to have to 'scroll down' to read the original message in a reply, how is that any different than me having to scroll down to read your reply? Two points here: 1) Inconsistent top/bottom posting within the same thread is a pain for everyone to read through. This almost demands that consistency be maintained, and that consistency must be determined by the community. This community generally prefers bottom-posting. which leads to: 2) As an outsider coming into a new group, it's generally considered nice to follow that group's conventions, /especially/ when it's not particularly hard to do so. While you're right that scrolling to read the original is not difficult, if the majority of people on the list (including the list admins) prefer bottom-posting, it would seem appropriate to change your own behavior rather than to expect everyone else to change theirs. Etiquette is generally just a way of showing respect for other people while interacting with them. It's not required, and it's not always easy (certainly it's harder than just doing whatever we want) but in general, I think the world is a nicer place when everyone is respectful of other people's (and their community's) wishes, as long as the wishes aren't too onerous. Erik ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
-Original Message- From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 19 January 2007 10:13 AM To: Murray Taylor Cc: Dak Ghatikachalam; freebsd-questions Subject: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term) [heavily trimmed, subject line clarified, format breakage recovered] On Thursday, 18 January 2007 at 16:31:41 +1100, Murray Taylor wrote: On Thursday, 18 January 2007 11:48 AM, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote: What if someone is emailing from a thread while I am replying at the same time, would that not happen ? Would I be getting complains again that I am top-posting Top-posting defined simply ... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? Yes, that's a nice one. Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, so the bad habit has developed across the world both domestically and in businesses, to write there, rather than continuing the email thread at the bottom. I think the biggest problem with Microsoft MUAs is not where they position the cursor, but the difficulty they cause in editing the text. My editor also positions the cursor at the very top when I reply to a message. But it also makes it possible to tidy things up. Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. Greg -- Exactly! And not only my .sig which I do have control over whether I add it or not, and also the [EMAIL PROTECTED] stupid corporate disclaimer also (over which I have no control) sigh Mail etiquette and general netiquette are subjects that are not taught when the unwashed are given computers... mjt (no .sig) --- The information transmitted in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of it, or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons and/or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please inform the sender and/or addressee immediately and delete the material. E-mails may not be secure, may contain computer viruses and may be corrupted in transmission. Please carefully check this e-mail (and any attachment) accordingly. No warranties are given and no liability is accepted for any loss or damage caused by such matters. --- ### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses by Bytecraft ### ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On 18/01/07, Murray Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. Greg Exactly! And not only my .sig which I do have control over whether I add it or not, and also the [EMAIL PROTECTED] stupid corporate disclaimer also (over which I have no control) sigh mjt (no .sig) since i seem to be in the mood to muddy the waters today: have you considered using a mail address outside of your corporation? one which doesn't automatically add that disclaimer. i've never been fond of using my work email address for anything outside of work, but that's me. maybe this is an obvious answer but it is one way to please the etiquette overlords. -g -- Greg Albrecht ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) An Indie, Hip Hop and IDM Podcast: The Letter G http://theletterg.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
-Original Message- From: Greg Albrecht [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 19 January 2007 11:42 AM To: Murray Taylor Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term) On 18/01/07, Murray Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. Greg Exactly! And not only my .sig which I do have control over whether I add it or not, and also the [EMAIL PROTECTED] stupid corporate disclaimer also (over which I have no control) sigh mjt (no .sig) since i seem to be in the mood to muddy the waters today: have you considered using a mail address outside of your corporation? one which doesn't automatically add that disclaimer. i've never been fond of using my work email address for anything outside of work, but that's me. maybe this is an obvious answer but it is one way to please the etiquette overlords. -g -- Greg Albrecht ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) I started using the lists from work years ago when I was establishing the FreeBSD servers and it was easier to get QA stuff done... Since then the weenies have come along and changed out a perfectly servicable Postfix / Cyrus mail system with M$ Exchg(barf), and the beanies wanted the disclaimers .. sigh mjt ( .sig applies here ];-0 ) -- Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. --Albert Einstein -- --- The information transmitted in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of it, or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons and/or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please inform the sender and/or addressee immediately and delete the material. E-mails may not be secure, may contain computer viruses and may be corrupted in transmission. Please carefully check this e-mail (and any attachment) accordingly. No warranties are given and no liability is accepted for any loss or damage caused by such matters. --- ### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses by Bytecraft ### ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
Murray Taylor wrote: -Original Message- From: Greg Albrecht [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 19 January 2007 11:42 AM To: Murray Taylor Cc: freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term) On 18/01/07, Murray Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Top posting is only one issue. Others of great importance are trimming your posts, not breaking the lines into tiny fragments, and not writing one-line paragraphs. Your .sig is a good example of things that people should remove from replies. Greg Exactly! And not only my .sig which I do have control over whether I add it or not, and also the [EMAIL PROTECTED] stupid corporate disclaimer also (over which I have no control) sigh mjt (no .sig) since i seem to be in the mood to muddy the waters today: have you considered using a mail address outside of your corporation? one which doesn't automatically add that disclaimer. i've never been fond of using my work email address for anything outside of work, but that's me. maybe this is an obvious answer but it is one way to please the etiquette overlords. -g -- Greg Albrecht ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) I started using the lists from work years ago when I was establishing the FreeBSD servers and it was easier to get QA stuff done... Since then the weenies have come along and changed out a perfectly servicable Postfix / Cyrus mail system with M$ Exchg(barf), and the beanies wanted the disclaimers .. sigh Have any of these disclaimers ever proven to be even the slightest bit legally enforceable? I mean, for God's sake, they're at the bottom of the message, essentially telling you not to read the message you just read. -- Jay Chandler Network Administrator, Chapman University 714.628.7249 / [EMAIL PROTECTED] Today's Excuse: PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] mail disclaimers [ was Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term) ]
[ snip much ado about mail etiquette and sigs and whatnot ] I started using the lists from work years ago when I was establishing the FreeBSD servers and it was easier to get QA stuff done... Since then the weenies have come along and changed out a perfectly servicable Postfix / Cyrus mail system with M$ Exchg(barf), and the beanies wanted the disclaimers .. Have any of these disclaimers ever proven to be even the slightest bit legally enforceable? I mean, for God's sake, they're at the bottom of the message, essentially telling you not to read the message you just read. Probably just as enforceable as the shrink-wrap licence on Windows. (By using this CD, you agree to be bound by the EULA which you will get a chance to review when installing the software...) -- Matt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
On 1/19/07, Jay Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have any of these disclaimers ever proven to be even the slightest bit legally enforceable? I mean, for God's sake, they're at the bottom of the message, essentially telling you not to read the message you just read. [...] They *assume* that you will start reading the email bottom-up, as my experience says such disclaimers are added in those corporations where top-posting is a norm. :-) Cheers, Amarendra ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term)
- Original Message - From: Jay Chandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: freebsd-questions freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Mail etiquette (was: What is this mean by this term) Have any of these disclaimers ever proven to be even the slightest bit legally enforceable? No they are not. You cannot enforce something when you do not have the recipient make an informed commitment to it. For example, you can hold a gun to someone's head and make them sign a contract. The second you walk away they take the contract to a court and bam, it's invalidated because they signed under duress. And if you look at recent court decisions, the definition of signing under duress has been -exceedingly- stretched these days. Nowadays if someone can convince a court that the contract holder ddn't completely inform them of every last little condition, they can invalidate the contract. And this is a signed, notarized, witnessed contract we are talking about. The idea that something like these disclaimers, or for that matter, software shrink wrap licenses, would hold any legal water is just preposterous. I mean, for God's sake, they're at the bottom of the message, essentially telling you not to read the message you just read. It would make no difference where they were in the message. The people insisting on these disclaimers have absolutely no legal knowledge whatsoever. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
What is this mean by this term
I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting do I pickup the last thread from that email thread and reply ? is that right ? What if someone is emailing from a thread while I am replying at the same time, would that not happen ? Would I be getting complains again that I am top-posting Thanks Dak ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting Top-posting is when you put your reply above the orginal message. The problem is evident when you get many people responding to each other; it rapidly becomes difficult to determine who said what, and well-nigh impossible to follow the flow of the discussion. -- Chris Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** [ Busy Expunging | ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
Dak Ghatikachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
SO This is TOP-POSTING -- Actually this is normal behavior of my google mail On 1/17/07, Chris Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting Top-posting is when you put your reply above the orginal message. The problem is evident when you get many people responding to each other; it rapidly becomes difficult to determine who said what, and well-nigh impossible to follow the flow of the discussion. -- Chris Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** [ Busy Expunging | ] So this correct place to POST back the reply , interesting . Thanks a lot Dak ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
On 1/17/07, Bill Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dak Ghatikachalam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_posting Thanks a lot Wiki information Rocks, Wow I learnt more about top posting, bottom posting, inline replying and Double quoting. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is this mean by this term
On Wednesday 17 January 2007 15:48, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting do I pickup the last thread from that email thread and reply ? is that right ? What if someone is emailing from a thread while I am replying at the same time, would that not happen ? Would I be getting complains again that I am top-posting Thanks Dak You might want to look at the following: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html It's a very comprehensive guide for posting to these lists. Beech -- --- Beech Rintoul - Sys. Administrator - [EMAIL PROTECTED] /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Alaska Paradise Travel \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | 201 East 9Th Avenue Ste.310 X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Anchorage, AK 99501 / \ - Please visit Alaska Paradise - http://www.alaskaparadise.com --- pgpmd5qXymKeP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: What is this mean by this term
On 1/17/07, Beech Rintoul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 17 January 2007 15:48, Dak Ghatikachalam wrote: I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting do I pickup the last thread from that email thread and reply ? is that right ? What if someone is emailing from a thread while I am replying at the same time, would that not happen ? Would I be getting complains again that I am top-posting Thanks Dak You might want to look at the following: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html It's a very comprehensive guide for posting to these lists. Beech -- --- Beech Rintoul - Sys. Administrator - [EMAIL PROTECTED] /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Alaska Paradise Travel \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | 201 East 9Th Avenue Ste.310 X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Anchorage, AK 99501 / \ - Please visit Alaska Paradise - http://www.alaskaparadise.com --- Wow, That link above made a world of difference, Thanks a lot. I have learnt more. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What is this mean by this term
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dak Ghatikachalam Sent: Thursday, 18 January 2007 11:48 AM To: freebsd-questions Subject: What is this mean by this term I am confused 2 posters have told me that I am top posting , What do we mean by top-posting do I pickup the last thread from that email thread and reply ? is that right ? What if someone is emailing from a thread while I am replying at the same time, would that not happen ? Would I be getting complains again that I am top-posting Thanks Dak ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Top-posting defined simply ... A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? Unfortunately all Micro$lop 'standard' email clients and a few others put the cursor at the top of the email, so the bad habit has developed across the world both domestically and in businesses, to write there, rather than continuing the email thread at the bottom. mjt --- The information transmitted in this e-mail is for the exclusive use of the intended addressee and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of it, or the taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons and/or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please inform the sender and/or addressee immediately and delete the material. E-mails may not be secure, may contain computer viruses and may be corrupted in transmission. Please carefully check this e-mail (and any attachment) accordingly. No warranties are given and no liability is accepted for any loss or damage caused by such matters. --- ### This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses by Bytecraft ### ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
