Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 06:54:01AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19:33AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> > > of a comma
> > 
> > If we are now going to evaluate all proposed changes to FreeBSD on the
> > same rigid principles as the US legal system, I'm done.
> 
> I do not think "all" is in scope here,
> but I do feel should excercise care about procedure.
> And FYI, the case law above I am pretty sure was not US.
> 
> I also believe that what is at issue here can be fixed
> rather easily without ever going down the minor vs major
> slippery slope by some rather simple changes to order
> of events and careful steps.
> 
> Warner came very close, I think he just applied his correct
> "fix" to 1/2 of the problem.
> 
> There is the stage where the FCP is before core being voted
> on, and there is the stage that the FCP has been approved.
> He only addressed 1 of those, and he did so by allowing core
> to trivially modify the document during the voting process,
> and I am actually fine with that idea, its good, it is what
> should be allowed.  I trust core to know what is minor vs
> major.
> 
> BUTT it still does not cover the issue of the author/submitter
> modifying the document while it is in core being reviewed and
> possibly modified.  I have issue with that.  It is very hard
> to vote/formally review on something that is fluid.
> I have not been asked to trust these people with the trust I
> give core, so I would like to remove that.

There are technical measures in place that do much of this already.
Right now, authors can't directly change the documents (unless they are
repo admins which means core and former core members in practice).  We
require that pull requests be reviewed before they are merged and random
people don't have commit access.  We could make the restriction to core
members or core members and fcp-editors explicit if that was desirable.

> We could add that once the document is submitted to core
> any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires
> core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change
> has been made to what was submitted.

I agree.  We'll need to think on how best to do this.

-- Brooks


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Description: PGP signature

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> Rodney W. Grimes wrote this message on Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19 -0700:
> > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor".
> 
> For those currious about this case:
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/03/16/lack-oxford-comma-costs-maine-company-millions-overtime-dispute/BIxK837fA2C06qavQMDs5J/story.html

For those more interested:
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca1/16-1901/16-1901-2017-03-13.html

And I was wrong, it is a US case, though I am sure there is other
similiar case law on other books.

-- 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[John-Mark Gurney]

Rodney W. Grimes wrote this message on Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19 -0700:
> And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor".

For those currious about this case:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/03/16/lack-oxford-comma-costs-maine-company-millions-overtime-dispute/BIxK837fA2C06qavQMDs5J/story.html

-- 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Alexey Dokuchaev]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:38:46AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> ...
> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.

Warner, I had mentioned [*] that I'm using sf(4), would you please be more
careful when collecting "NICs still in use" data?  We really do need a wiki
page and carefully relect all the feedback we've received so far and also
upcoming one.

./danfe

[*] Message-ID: <20181004084411.ga50...@freebsd.org>
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[rb]

> On 24 Oct 2018, at 14:39, Warner Losh  wrote:
> 
> [stuff trimmed]
> 
>> >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
>> >> I think this should be clarified.
>> >> 
>> >> It is much more clear on post approval:
>> >>Changes after acceptance
>> >> 
>> >>FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
>> >>accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
>> >>FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
>> >>If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
>> >>and restarted.
>> >> 
>> > 
>> > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the
>> > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes,
>> > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no 
>> > confusion.
>> > 
>> > diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
>> > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
>> > --- a/fcp-.md
>> > +++ b/fcp-.md
>> > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable
>> > and acceptable close it
>> > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
>> > 
>> > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The
>> > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
>> > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The
>> > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core
>> > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that
>> > +need to be addressed.
>> 
>> This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is 
>> minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for 
>> so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; this 
>> worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word “not” 
>> in a particular place was clearly a clerical error.
> 
> This documents procedure. It's not law. Trying to read it as law is a 
> mistake: it's written to be brief and descriptive, not through and 
> prescriptive. And that's on purpose. Axiom 1 of the bylaws is that you can 
> trust the core team, which is why the power grant is total and unequivocal: 
> Core is the governing body of the project. If you can't trust the core team 
> and need anything more, you've already list. And over the years core's 
> biggest failing isn't some fleet of black helicopters dispatched to take out 
> critics or other shenanigans. It's either been not doing enough for the 
> situation (due to too little time and/or a mistaken impression that they 
> couldn't do anything), or it's lack of clear communication either between the 
> different 'hats' and core or between core and the rest of the project.
> 
> Warner 

No problem with any of that. If the intent is that “core MAY make unrestricted 
changes to the FCP and/or MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are 
problems that need to be addressed” then say so.

--
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r...@gid.co.uk m: +44 (0)783 626 4518





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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote:
> > We could add that once the document is submitted to core
> > any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires
> > core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change
> > has been made to what was submitted.
> 
> Yes !

And to expand on that further since core is under a 2 week
timeline to complete this process any submitted change acceptable
to core resets the 2 week timer, if core rejects the change the
timer continues as original.


-- 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:19 AM Rodney W. Grimes <
freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

> > > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> -- Start of PGP signed section.
> > >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs,
> > >> wb, sn,
> > >> smc,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > >> thread, and
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age
> > >> today.
> > 
> >  vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> >  http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> >  vr0: flags=8843 metric
> > >> 0 mtu
> > >> 1500
> > options=82808
> > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast
> > >> 192.168.91.255
> > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> > >> )
> > status: active
> > 
> >  Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade
> > >> soon
> >  when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN
> > >> server.
> > >>>
> > >>> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > >>>
> > >>> -- Brooks
> > >> Brooks,
> > >>Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that
> > >> reflects the
> > >> feedback which is what core is voting on?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to
> see,
> > > submit pull requests against and track:
> > 
> >  I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
> >  submit a change request other than through direct email to
> >  brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
> > 
> > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
> > 
> >  Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
> >  which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
> > 
> >  Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
> > >>>
> > >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
> > >>> to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
> > >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was
> material.  I
> > >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value
> in
> > >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that
> led
> > >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.
> > >>
> > >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
> > >> I think this should be clarified.
> > >>
> > >> It is much more clear on post approval:
> > >>Changes after acceptance
> > >>
> > >>FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
> > >>accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
> > >>FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
> > >>If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
> > >>and restarted.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes
> during the
> > > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar
> mistakes,
> > > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no
> confusion.
> > >
> > > diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
> > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
> > > --- a/fcp-.md
> > > +++ b/fcp-.md
> > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a
> suitable
> > > and acceptable close it
> > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
> > >
> > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the
> FCP. The
> > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> The
> > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes.
> Core
> > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems
> that
> > > +need to be addressed.
> >
> > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is
> minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for
> so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc;
> this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word
> ?not? in a particular place was clearly a clerical error.
>
> And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor".
>
> Use of words minor and major should be 

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Bob Bishop]

> On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> 
>> -- Start of PGP signed section.
>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs,
>> wb, sn,
>> smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
>> thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age
>> today.
 
 vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
 vr0: flags=8843 metric
>> 0 mtu
>> 1500
options=82808
ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast
>> 192.168.91.255
media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
>> )
status: active
 
 Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade
>> soon
 when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN
>> server.
>>> 
>>> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
>>> 
>>> -- Brooks
>> Brooks,
>>Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that
>> reflects the
>> feedback which is what core is voting on?
>> 
> 
> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> submit pull requests against and track:
 
 I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
 submit a change request other than through direct email to
 brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
 
> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
 
 Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
 which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
 
 Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
>>> 
>>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
>>> to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
>>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
>>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
>>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
>>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.
>> 
>> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
>> I think this should be clarified.
>> 
>> It is much more clear on post approval:
>>Changes after acceptance
>> 
>>FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
>>accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
>>FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
>>If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
>>and restarted.
>> 
> 
> Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the
> voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes,
> table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion.
> 
> diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
> index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
> --- a/fcp-.md
> +++ b/fcp-.md
> @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable
> and acceptable close it
> SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
> 
> At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The
> -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The
> +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core
> +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that
> +need to be addressed.

This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is minor. 
I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for so-called 
clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; this worked just 
fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word “not” in a particular 
place was clearly a clerical error.

> FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected.
> See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information.
> 
> Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't use
> github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your concerns
> before doing so.
> 
> Warner
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--
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r...@gid.co.uk




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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19:33AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> of a comma

If we are now going to evaluate all proposed changes to FreeBSD on the
same rigid principles as the US legal system, I'm done.

mcl
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 05:19:33AM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> > of a comma
> 
> If we are now going to evaluate all proposed changes to FreeBSD on the
> same rigid principles as the US legal system, I'm done.

I do not think "all" is in scope here,
but I do feel should excercise care about procedure.
And FYI, the case law above I am pretty sure was not US.

I also believe that what is at issue here can be fixed
rather easily without ever going down the minor vs major
slippery slope by some rather simple changes to order
of events and careful steps.

Warner came very close, I think he just applied his correct
"fix" to 1/2 of the problem.

There is the stage where the FCP is before core being voted
on, and there is the stage that the FCP has been approved.
He only addressed 1 of those, and he did so by allowing core
to trivially modify the document during the voting process,
and I am actually fine with that idea, its good, it is what
should be allowed.  I trust core to know what is minor vs
major.

BUTT it still does not cover the issue of the author/submitter
modifying the document while it is in core being reviewed and
possibly modified.  I have issue with that.  It is very hard
to vote/formally review on something that is fluid.
I have not been asked to trust these people with the trust I
give core, so I would like to remove that.

We could add that once the document is submitted to core
any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires
core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change
has been made to what was submitted.

-- 
Rod Grimes rgri...@freebsd.org
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Julian H. Stacey]

"Rodney W. Grimes" wrote:
> We could add that once the document is submitted to core
> any change to it between submitting and vote by core requires
> core to be involved, even if it is simply an ack of a change
> has been made to what was submitted.

Yes !

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
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 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
http://exitbrexit.ukhttps://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 5:02 AM Bob Bishop  wrote:

>
> > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh  wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> >
> >> -- Start of PGP signed section.
> >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> >
> >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs,
> >> wb, sn,
> >> smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> >> thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age
> >> today.
> 
>  vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
>  http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
>  vr0: flags=8843 metric
> >> 0 mtu
> >> 1500
> options=82808
> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast
> >> 192.168.91.255
> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> >> )
> status: active
> 
>  Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade
> >> soon
>  when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN
> >> server.
> >>>
> >>> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> >>>
> >>> -- Brooks
> >> Brooks,
> >>Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that
> >> reflects the
> >> feedback which is what core is voting on?
> >>
> >
> > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > submit pull requests against and track:
> 
>  I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
>  submit a change request other than through direct email to
>  brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
> 
> > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
> 
>  Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
>  which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
> 
>  Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
> >>>
> >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
> >>> to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
> >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
> >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
> >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
> >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.
> >>
> >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
> >> I think this should be clarified.
> >>
> >> It is much more clear on post approval:
> >>Changes after acceptance
> >>
> >>FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
> >>accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
> >>FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
> >>If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
> >>and restarted.
> >>
> >
> > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during
> the
> > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes,
> > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no
> confusion.
> >
> > diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
> > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
> > --- a/fcp-.md
> > +++ b/fcp-.md
> > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a
> suitable
> > and acceptable close it
> > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
> >
> > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP.
> The
> > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> The
> > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes.
> Core
> > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems
> that
> > +need to be addressed.
>
> This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is
> minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for
> so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc;
> this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word
> “not” in a particular place was clearly a clerical error.
>

This documents procedure. It's not law. Trying to read it as law is a
mistake: it's written to be brief and descriptive, not through and
prescriptive. And that's on purpose. Axiom 1 of the bylaws is that you can
trust the core team, which is why the power grant is total and unequivocal:
Core is the governing body of the project. If you can't trust the core team
and need anything more, you've already list. And over the years 

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

... deleted ...
... cc list trimmed, getting too many recepient gripes from mailman ...

> > > > diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
> > > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
> > > > --- a/fcp-.md
> > > > +++ b/fcp-.md
> > > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a
> > suitable
> > > > and acceptable close it
> > > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
> > > >
> > > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the
> > FCP. The
> > > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> > > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> > The
> > > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes.
> > Core
> > > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems
> > that
> > > > +need to be addressed.
> > >
> > > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is
> > minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for
> > so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc;
> > this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word
> > ?not? in a particular place was clearly a clerical error.
> >
> > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
> > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor".
> >
> > Use of words minor and major should be red flags unless both
> > or explicitly defined, and even then those definitions often
> > have issues themselves.
> >
> 
> I'm not going to define every single word. FCP documents describe process.
> They are not legal documents, nor should they be. Major and minor have
> common enough meanings, and the basis of bylaws is that we trust core@.

The trust isssue is not core (though in this specific case it is
a core member submitting the FCP, that is not going to be the
case always).  The trust issue is do we allow the Author to make
this minor/major change decission and how does core get informed
that it has happened?

-- 
Rod Grimes rgri...@freebsd.org
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh  wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> -- Start of PGP signed section.
> >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > 
> >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs,
> >> wb, sn,
> >> smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> >> thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age
> >> today.
>  
>  vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
>  http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
>  vr0: flags=8843 metric
> >> 0 mtu
> >> 1500
> options=82808
> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast
> >> 192.168.91.255
> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> >> )
> status: active
>  
>  Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade
> >> soon
>  when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN
> >> server.
> >>> 
> >>> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> >>> 
> >>> -- Brooks
> >> Brooks,
> >>Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that
> >> reflects the
> >> feedback which is what core is voting on?
> >> 
> > 
> > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > submit pull requests against and track:
>  
>  I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
>  submit a change request other than through direct email to
>  brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
>  
> > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
>  
>  Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
>  which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
>  
>  Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
> >>> 
> >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
> >>> to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
> >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
> >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
> >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
> >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.
> >> 
> >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
> >> I think this should be clarified.
> >> 
> >> It is much more clear on post approval:
> >>Changes after acceptance
> >> 
> >>FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
> >>accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
> >>FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
> >>If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
> >>and restarted.
> >> 
> > 
> > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the
> > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes,
> > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion.
> > 
> > diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
> > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
> > --- a/fcp-.md
> > +++ b/fcp-.md
> > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable
> > and acceptable close it
> > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
> > 
> > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The
> > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The
> > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core
> > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that
> > +need to be addressed.
> 
> This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is 
> minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for 
> so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; this 
> worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word ?not? 
> in a particular place was clearly a clerical error.

And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence
of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor".

Use of words minor and major should be red flags unless both
or explicitly defined, and even then those definitions often
have issues themselves.

> > FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected.
> > See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information.
> > 
> > Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but 

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn,
> > > smc,
> > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > > thread, and
> > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > > > >
> > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu
> > > 1500
> > > > > options=82808
> > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> > > )
> > > > > status: active
> > > > >
> > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
> > > >
> > > > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > > >
> > > > -- Brooks
> > > Brooks,
> > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
> > > feedback which is what core is voting on?
> > >
> > 
> > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > submit pull requests against and track:
> 
> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
> submit a change request other than through direct email to
> brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
> 
> > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
> 
> Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
> which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
> 
> Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?

I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.

-- Brooks


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
... deleted un relavent text ...

> > > > > > Brooks,
> > > > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that
> > reflects the
> > > > > > feedback which is what core is voting on?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > > > > submit pull requests against and track:
> > > >
> > > > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
> > > > submit a change request other than through direct email to
> > > > brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
> > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
> > > > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
> > > >
> > > > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
> > >
> > > I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
> > > to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
> > > that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
> > > suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
> > > the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
> > > to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.
> >
> > The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
> > I think this should be clarified.
> >
> > It is much more clear on post approval:
> > Changes after acceptance
> >
> > FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
> > accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
> > FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
> > If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
> > and restarted.
> >
> 
> Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the
> voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes,
> table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion.

Agreed.

> 
> diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
> index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
> --- a/fcp-.md
> +++ b/fcp-.md
> @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable
> and acceptable close it
>  SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.
> 
>  At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The
> -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
> +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The
> +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core
> +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that
> +need to be addressed.

This allows and clarifies that core may modify it,
it does not address if the author/submitter can modify it.

> 
>  FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected.
>  See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information.
> 
> Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't use
> github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your concerns
> before doing so.

I thank you very much for that consideration,
-- 
Rod Grimes rgri...@freebsd.org
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

> -- Start of PGP signed section.
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > > > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs,
> wb, sn,
> > > > > smc,
> > > > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > > > > thread, and
> > > > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age
> today.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric
> 0 mtu
> > > > > 1500
> > > > > > > options=82808
> > > > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast
> 192.168.91.255
> > > > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> > > > > )
> > > > > > > status: active
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade
> soon
> > > > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN
> server.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- Brooks
> > > > > Brooks,
> > > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that
> reflects the
> > > > > feedback which is what core is voting on?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > > > submit pull requests against and track:
> > >
> > > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
> > > submit a change request other than through direct email to
> > > brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
> > >
> > > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
> > >
> > > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
> > > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
> > >
> > > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
> >
> > I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
> > to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
> > that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
> > suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
> > the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
> > to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.
>
> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
> I think this should be clarified.
>
> It is much more clear on post approval:
> Changes after acceptance
>
> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
> FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
> and restarted.
>

Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes during the
voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar mistakes,
table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no confusion.

diff --git a/fcp-.md b/fcp-.md
index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644
--- a/fcp-.md
+++ b/fcp-.md
@@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a suitable
and acceptable close it
 SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state.

 At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the FCP. The
-result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state.
+result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. The
+core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. Core
+MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems that
+need to be addressed.

 FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected.
 See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information.

Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't use
github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your concerns
before doing so.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:26 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb,
> sn,
> > > smc,
> > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > > thread, and
> > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > > > >
> > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0
> mtu
> > > 1500
> > > > > options=82808
> > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast
> 192.168.91.255
> > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> > > )
> > > > > status: active
> > > > >
> > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN
> server.
> > > >
> > > > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > > >
> > > > -- Brooks
> > > Brooks,
> > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
> > > feedback which is what core is voting on?
> > >
> >
> > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > submit pull requests against and track:
>
> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
> submit a change request other than through direct email to
> brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
>

The fcp process was officially approved by core.9. You can make suggestions
to core for improvements to the process. Lord knows this FCP hasn't been
trouble free (though we've learned some valuable lessons). Submissions to
the author is always an option should you choose not to use the widely used
technology we've chosen to automate this process. Some FreeBSD users don't
have accounts, however, many non-developers have github accounts and I
think it's a reasonable way to do outreach to the larger community w/o
requiring everybody to get a freebsd account (since they are already likely
to have a github account, and if not they are trivial to get).

So yea, it's a flawed process, and we'd love feedback on actionable items
we can do to make it better.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

-- Start of PGP signed section.
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> > > freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, 
> > > > > > > sn,
> > > > smc,
> > > > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > > > thread, and
> > > > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu
> > > > 1500
> > > > > > options=82808
> > > > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 
> > > > > > 192.168.91.255
> > > > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> > > > )
> > > > > > status: active
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > > > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN 
> > > > > > server.
> > > > >
> > > > > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Brooks
> > > > Brooks,
> > > > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
> > > > feedback which is what core is voting on?
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> > > submit pull requests against and track:
> > 
> > I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
> > submit a change request other than through direct email to
> > brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.
> > 
> > > https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md
> > 
> > Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
> > which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".
> > 
> > Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?
> 
> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only
> to notice a bug in table rendering.  I submitted a pull request fix
> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was material.  I
> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value in
> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that led
> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line.

The FCP process itself is unclear on this point,
I think this should be clarified.

It is much more clear on post approval:
Changes after acceptance

FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the
accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the
FCP to reflect the final conclusions.
If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn
and restarted.

-- 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
> freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
> 
> > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn,
> > smc,
> > > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > thread, and
> > > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > > >
> > > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu
> > 1500
> > > > options=82808
> > > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> > > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> > )
> > > > status: active
> > > >
> > > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
> > >
> > > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > >
> > > -- Brooks
> > Brooks,
> > Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
> > feedback which is what core is voting on?
> >
> 
> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
> submit pull requests against and track:

I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to
submit a change request other than through direct email to
brooks or another gh user.  This is fundementally flawed.

> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md

Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD,
which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago".

Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes?


-- 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:06:48PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, 
> > > > smc,
> > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, 
> > > > and
> > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > > 
> > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500
> > > options=82808
> > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX 
> > > )
> > > status: active
> > > 
> > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
> > 
> > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> > 
> > -- Brooks
> Brooks,
>   Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
> feedback which is what core is voting on?

https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md has been updated
throughout the feedback process as drivers were moved to the STAY list,
errors were found, etc.  It also contains a summary of responses and the
hard data we have.

-- Brooks


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 3:57 PM Julian H. Stacey  wrote:

> Doug Hardie wrote:
> > I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see
> that listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as
> it has not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on
> boards so they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the
> machines are about a 4 hour drive from here and would require
> reconfiguration (an error prone process when you are tired).
>
> bge is also used by my main laptop with current Oct 15 18:33
> /boot/kernel/kernel
>
> bge0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500
>
> options=c019b
> media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT )
>
> Doug, I think bge must be safe as man 4 bge:
> "bge - Broadcom BCM57xx/BCM590x Gigabit/Fast Ethernet driver"
> & Brooks proposal was ... "a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet
> drivers"
>

Indeed. https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md shows bge is
not on the list to go.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes <
freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn,
> smc,
> > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> thread, and
> > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > >
> > > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu
> 1500
> > > options=82808
> > > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> > > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX
> )
> > > status: active
> > >
> > > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
> >
> > The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> >
> > -- Brooks
> Brooks,
> Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
> feedback which is what core is voting on?
>

Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to see,
submit pull requests against and track:

https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > 
> > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500
> > options=82808
> > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX 
> > )
> > status: active
> > 
> > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
> 
> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.
> 
> -- Brooks
Brooks,
Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that reflects the
feedback which is what core is voting on?

-- 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Hi, Reference:
> From: Brooks Davis 
> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:10:37 +

Brooks Davis wrote:
> 
> --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, sm=
> c,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, a=
> nd
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> >=20
> > vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> > http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> > vr0: flags=3D8843 metric 0 mtu 15=
> 00
> > options=3D82808
> > ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> > inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> > media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX  pause,txpause>)
> > status: active
> >=20
> > Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> > when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.
> 
> The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.

Great, Thanks.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich.
 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
http://exitbrexit.ukhttps://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> 
> vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
> vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500
> options=82808
> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX 
> )
> status: active
> 
> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.

The above was a typo.  vr is on the the STAY list.

-- Brooks


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Doug Hardie wrote:
> I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that 
> listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has 
> not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on boards so 
> they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are 
> about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error 
> prone process when you are tired).

bge is also used by my main laptop with current Oct 15 18:33 /boot/kernel/kernel

bge0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500

options=c019b
media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT )

Doug, I think bge must be safe as man 4 bge:
"bge - Broadcom BCM57xx/BCM590x Gigabit/Fast Ethernet driver"
& Brooks proposal was ... "a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers"

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich.
 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
http://exitbrexit.ukhttps://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Julian H. Stacey]

> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.

vr is used by my TV driver laptop:
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/
vr0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500
options=82808
ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38
inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.91.255
media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX 
)
status: active

Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade soon
when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN server.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich.
 Brexit referendum stole 3,700,000 Brits votes abroad, inc. 700,000 in EU.
 Campaign lies, criminal funding, economy & pound down. Time for an honest ref.
http://exitbrexit.ukhttps://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition
https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Matthieu Volat]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:27:48 -0600
Warner Losh  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM Matthieu Volat  wrote:
> 
> > Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the
> > current status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people
> > to look at their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every
> > answer to this thread...
> >  
> 
> The FCP is being updated and will be uploaded when that's done. At
> this point, it seems that we have all the data to make the right decisions,
> at least to tag the drivers deprecated for the 12.0 release when I'm sure
> will get us additional data.
> 
> Warner


Thanks for the info!


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:52 AM Matthieu Volat  wrote:

> Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the
> current status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people
> to look at their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every
> answer to this thread...
>

The FCP is being updated and will be uploaded when that's done. At
this point, it seems that we have all the data to make the right decisions,
at least to tag the drivers deprecated for the 12.0 release when I'm sure
will get us additional data.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Matthieu Volat]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 21:05:16 +
Brooks Davis  wrote:

> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<  
> 
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> 
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> 
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> 
> The criteria for exception are:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>  deemed satisfy the "popular"
>  requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
> 
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
> 
> -- Brooks
> 
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis 
> state: feedback
> ---
> 
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> 
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
> 
> ## Problem Statement
> 
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
> 
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
> 
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
> 
> ## Proposed Solution
> 
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>to FreeBSD 12.
>  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>devices.
> 
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>  deemed satisfy the "popular"
>  requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> ### Exceptions to removal
> 
> Device | Reason
> ---|-
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
> vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
> xl | Popular device for CardBus card.
> 
> Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.
> 
> ### Device to be removed
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> ## Final Disposition
> 
> TBD

Would it be possible to set a wiki page/section in 12 that display the current 
status of removal of those devices? That might be easier for people to look at 
their hardware actual state rather than try to trace every answer to this 
thread...

Thanks a lot!

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Nikita Druba]

04.10.2018 0:05, Brooks Davis пишет:

Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<

FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.

The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:

dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl

The criteria for exception are:
  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
  deemed satisfy the "popular"
  requirement.
  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)

Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.

The full FCP-0101 is included below.

-- Brooks

---
authors: Brooks Davis 
state: feedback
---

# FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
FreeBSD 13.

## Problem Statement

Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
iflib, but each additional driver takes work.

10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.

For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).

## Proposed Solution

We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
will entail:
  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
to FreeBSD 12.
  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
devices.

Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
  deemed satisfy the "popular"
  requirement.
  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)

### Exceptions to removal

Device | Reason
---|-
ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project.
dc | Popular device for CardBus card.
hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
xl | Popular device for CardBus card.

Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.

### Device to be removed

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

## Final Disposition

TBD

Hello!

My servers use rl and bfe devices from deprecated list. Also I have some 
ed devices for replacement failed adapters.


Also I can try do convertion to iflib for bfe, rl and ed devices, but 
still no one not showed good example driver that has already been 
converted...


P.S. So late, because I was away and just returned.



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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[John-Mark Gurney]

Warner Losh wrote this message on Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 09:53 -0600:
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert 
> wrote:
> 
> > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not
> > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs,
> > including wireless, currently installed here.
> >
> 
> There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has
> evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and
> committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current
> iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend.

Can you recommend one?  It'd be nice to just document which driver you
should use as a reference in the iflib man page...

I looked briefly at converting awg over to iflib,
but the iflib man pages were very sparce in any text to describe what
each function needs to do...  It says it in very high level, which is
useful if you already know what needs to be done..  for example:
   ifdi_tx_queues_alloc()
   Mandatory function that is called during iflib_attach to allocate
   transmit queues.  vaddrs and paddrs are arrays of virtual and
   physical addresses respectively of the hardware transmit queues.
   ntxqs is the number of queues per qset.  ntxqsets is the number of
   qsets.

It says it allocates memory for the queue, but upon allocation where
does it put the values?  It sounds like vaddrs and paddrs arrays are
already allocated and you just use these addresses...  But there is no
way I can write code from this description...

Also, lots of terminology is missing, like what is a qset?

-- 
  John-Mark Gurney  Voice: +1 415 225 5579

 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not."
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Jamie Landeg-Jones]

Brooks Davis  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 04:18:22PM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote:
> > Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig.
> > 
> > I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc 
> > driver:
> > 
> > alc0:  port 0x2000-0x207f mem 
> > 0xe050-0xe053 irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1
>
> There are no plans to touch such drivers.

Yep, sorry I wasn't clear. That's what I meant - I was responding to someone
who was worried that the support was being dropped for 100Mbps cards.

cheers, Jamie
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 04:18:22PM +0100, Jamie Landeg-Jones wrote:
> Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig.
> 
> I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc driver:
> 
> alc0:  port 0x2000-0x207f mem 
> 0xe050-0xe053 irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1

There are no plans to touch such drivers.

-- Brooks


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Julian H. Stacey]

Thanks for the reply warner,

Warner Losh wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey  wrote:
> 
> > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> > >
> > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> > >
> > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> > >
> > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one
> > using xe or ex.  That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril.
> >
> 
> Later in the thread rl was removed from the list.

That's a partial relief.


> What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no
> reports of people using the latter two in about a decade.

I can look more later, but for a quick partial reply:
I keep an incomplete ad hoc occasionaly/rarely updated list of logs,
useful for odd questions such as this, so I can run quick checks

cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ;grep ed0: * */* | grep port # ... vi
dual film flip lapn loft slim wind
cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ed0: * */*
dual film flip lapl loft park rain snow wall wind

cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ;grep xe0: * */*
lapd lapo
cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep xe0: * */*
nothing

cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ;grep ex0: * */*
nothing
cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ex0: * */*
nothing

Hosts above are custom PCs no model numbers, but these are standard laptops:
 xe: lapd: Digital HiNote Ultra2000 
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/digital/
 ed: lapl: Toshiba Libretto 70CT
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/toshiba/libretto/
 ed: lapn: Dell Latitude XPi P133ST 
http://berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/dell_latitude_xpi_p133st
 xe: lapo: Novatech (MiTAC) 8355
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/

( PS ed0 is also used by Hewlett Packard Network ScanJet 5 a multi sheet
feeder with FreeBSD built inside, however that's stuck on a seriously
old release, still a great device though - http://berklix.com/scanjet/ )

PS My master kernel config from pre 4.11 to current:
http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/jhs/sys/amd64/conf/HOLZ

So quick summary:
ex: I dont seem to use
ed: I use on many of my hosts, not just those above, & I have some 
spare 
to stick in to any PCI or ISA box I work on if needed.
ed & xe I also have on pcmcia & cardbus, so they move around between 
laptops.


> Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers,
> > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade
> > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc.
> >
> 
> You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of
> maintenance yourself.

Didn't know drivers could be farmed out to ports/, sounds like a
recipe for breakage sooner or later.


> > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping
> > live code is offensive.  Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions
> > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except
> > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ...
> > until their nets don't work.
> >
> 
> I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to
> 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs.
> There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced
> and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to
> show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes
> non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will
> be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case
> that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you
> look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made
> compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future
> to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words
> will not.
> 
> I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone
> is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing
> with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data
> for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these
> periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware
> that's no longer used.
> 
> Warner

Yes, needs careful balance.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, 

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Andrew Turner]

> On 5 Oct 2018, at 16:19, Warner Losh  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:05 AM Andrew Turner  > wrote:
> 
> > On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis  > > wrote:
> > 
>  Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> > 
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md 
> > )
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> > 
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> > 
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I’ve seen it in the 
> Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it’s also in the other 
> models, but don’t have a license for them to check.
> 
> Do we currently support those simulators? I see it is in the VERSATILEPB 
> simulator that QEMU provides. Does that still work?

Yes, I boot FreeBSD/arm64 on them in a local Jenkins instance.

Andrew

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Jamie Landeg-Jones]

Remember, it's not simply deprecating cards less than 1Gig.

I have a card that is 10/100 only, but works fine with the gigabit alc driver:

alc0:  port 0x2000-0x207f mem 
0xe050-0xe053 irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1

cheers, jamie
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 9:05 AM Andrew Turner  wrote:

>
> > On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis  wrote:
> >
>  Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> >
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> >
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I’ve seen it in the
> Foundation and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it’s also in the
> other models, but don’t have a license for them to check.
>

Do we currently support those simulators? I see it is in the VERSATILEPB
simulator that QEMU provides. Does that still work?

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey  wrote:

> > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> >
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> >
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
>
> I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one
> using xe or ex.  That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril.
>

Later in the thread rl was removed from the list.

What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no
reports of people using the latter two in about a decade.

Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers,
> stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade
> again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc.
>

You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of
maintenance yourself.


> Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping
> live code is offensive.  Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions
> forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except
> maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ...
> until their nets don't work.
>

I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to
12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs.
There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced
and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to
show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes
non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will
be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case
that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you
look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made
compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future
to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words
will not.

I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone
is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing
with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data
for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these
periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware
that's no longer used.

Warner


> Cheers,
> Julian
> --
> Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix,
> Munich
>  Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits
> in EU
>  Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum
> needed.
> http://exitbrexit.uk
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Andrew Turner]

> On 3 Oct 2018, at 22:05, Brooks Davis  wrote:
> 
 Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> 
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> 
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

smc is found in the Arm models (simulators) [1]. I’ve seen it in the Foundation 
and Architecture Envelope Models. I assume it’s also in the other models, but 
don’t have a license for them to check.

Andrew

[1] https://developer.arm.com/products/system-design/fixed-virtual-platforms

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Julian H. Stacey]

> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> 
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> 
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one
using xe or ex.  That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril.

Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers,
stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade
again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc.

Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping
live code is offensive.  Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions
forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except
maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ...
until their nets don't work.

Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich
 Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU
 Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed.
http://exitbrexit.uk
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Matthew Macy]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:55 PM Doug Hardie  wrote:
>
> I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that 
> listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has 
> not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on boards so 
> they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are 
> about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error 
> prone process when you are tired).
>
To this day servers ship with bge. My Talos 2 with 2x22x4 P9s has dual
onboard bge.
-M


> I also have two production machines with ue devices.  There is no provision 
> for replacing them.  They are running an early version of 12 as 11 doesn't 
> run on those machines.  I don't see ue listed in either category.
>
> -- Doug
>
> > On 3 October 2018, at 14:05, Brooks Davis  wrote:
> >
>  Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> >
> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> > improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> > core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> >
> > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> >
> > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> >
> > The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> >
> > dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> >
> > The criteria for exception are:
> > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
> >   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
> >   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
> > deemed satisfy the "popular"
> > requirement.
> > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
> > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> >
> > Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
> >
> > The full FCP-0101 is included below.
> >
> > -- Brooks
> >
> > ---
> > authors: Brooks Davis 
> > state: feedback
> > ---
> >
> > # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> >
> > Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> > FreeBSD 13.
> >
> > ## Problem Statement
> >
> > Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> > improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> > 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> > NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> > interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> > iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
> >
> > 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> > and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> > are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> > removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
> >
> > For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> > systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> > machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> > retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> > removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> > drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> > 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
> >
> > ## Proposed Solution
> >
> > We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> > will entail:
> > - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
> > - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
> >   attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
> >   to FreeBSD 12.
> > - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
> >   freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
> > - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
> >   devices.
> >
> > Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> > list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> > the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
> > - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
> >   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
> >   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
> > deemed satisfy the "popular"
> > requirement.
> > - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
> > - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> >
> > ### Exceptions to removal
> >
> > Device | Reason
> > ---|-
> > ffec   

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Peter Jeremy]

On 2018-Oct-04 08:44:11 +, Alexey Dokuchaev  wrote:
>Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.  What exactly
>is the burden here?

As various others have stated, this isn't true.  All the code in FreeBSD has
an ongoing maintenance cost and is an impediment to adding new features.
There is no point in spending valuable developer effort to update drivers
and test them with unusual/obsolete hardware unless those drivers are going
to actually be used.

>Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill
>non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff?

That language is uncalled for.

>We offer probably
>the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink
>one of the few areas where we shine.  WTF?!

Supporting NICs that no-one uses doesn't benefit anyone.  No-one is talking
about removing NICs that are in active use.

>ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers.

Those netbooks are more than a decade old now and I don't expect many are
still functional.  Will people still expect to use them with FreeBSD 13 in 5
years time?

>As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no
>one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10.  So how about making this
>proposal cover only 10 cards,

What is the purpose in keeping unused FastEthernet cards in the tree?

>if you can't resist the itch to remove
>something from the tree?

Again, that language is uncalled for.

-- 
Peter Jeremy


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Pete French]

On 04/10/2018 20:54, Doug Hardie wrote:

I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that 
listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has 
not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on boards so 
they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are 
about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error 
prone process when you are tired).



bge is gigabit (I believe it actually stands for Broadcom Gigabit 
Ethernet) and thus wont be covered, as its only the 10/100 devices being 
propsed for removal. I too have a lot of machines with bge onboard, 
though we only use them on 100 meg ether in the main.


-pete.

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Doug Hardie]

I have a number of production servers that only have bge and I don't see that 
listed in either category.  None of them are running FreeBSD 12 yet as it has 
not been released.  Also there are some with rl.  Those are add-on boards so 
they could be changed, but would require extensive effort as the machines are 
about a 4 hour drive from here and would require reconfiguration (an error 
prone process when you are tired).

I also have two production machines with ue devices.  There is no provision for 
replacing them.  They are running an early version of 12 as 11 doesn't run on 
those machines.  I don't see ue listed in either category.

-- Doug

> On 3 October 2018, at 14:05, Brooks Davis  wrote:
> 
 Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> 
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> 
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> 
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> 
> The criteria for exception are:
> - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
> deemed satisfy the "popular"
> requirement.
> - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
> - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
> 
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
> 
> -- Brooks
> 
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis 
> state: feedback
> ---
> 
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> 
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
> 
> ## Problem Statement
> 
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
> 
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
> 
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
> 
> ## Proposed Solution
> 
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
> - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
> - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>   attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>   to FreeBSD 12.
> - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>   freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
> - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>   devices.
> 
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
> - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
> deemed satisfy the "popular"
> requirement.
> - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
> - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> ### Exceptions to removal
> 
> Device | Reason
> ---|-
> ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
> fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project.
> dc | Popular device for CardBus card.
> hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
> le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
> sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, 

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Cy Schubert]

In message <11826345-1b82-46cb-894c-e567725f8...@bway.net>, Charles 
Sprickman v
ia freebsd-fcp writes:
> 
>
> > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Cy Schubert  wrote:
> > 
> > I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, a
> nd sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I
>  can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too.
>
> I also have a stack of old stuff (almost certain there’s at least one vx in
>  there - VORTEX power!).  If anyone needs cards, please contact me and if I h
> ave it, I’ll send it your way.  Also have some old video (AGP), sound (ISA)
> , SATA (PCI-X) and other total rando stuff.
>
> One place I see the older cards are in some firewall boxes that are in SFF bo
> xes. Old PCI 10/100 NICs are more than adequate for backup WAN purposes (xDSL
> , cable, etc.) and some of the SFF boxes have one pci-e plus one pci slot and
>  that’s it.

My firewall has most of them. It has 2 sk(4), 2 nfe(4), fxp(4), and 
xl(4), with xl and fxp connected to my ISP and the others on my 
internal network. My testbed has sk(4), nfe(4), and dc(4), connected to 
my DMZ, for ipfilter testing. My main build machine and my current 
laptop have sk(4), nfe(4), bge(4), while my i386 testbed (an old 
laptop) has rl(4).

I have a spare motherboard (in case something breaks, while I purchase 
a replacement) with nv(4). All parts, including CPUs, are 
interchangeable.



-- 
Cheers,
Cy Schubert 
FreeBSD UNIX: Web:  http://www.FreeBSD.org

The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.



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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Joel Dahl]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 12:23:17PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein  wrote:
> 
> > 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> >
> > vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as
> > it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports
> > in my home router).
> >
> 
> Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards
> after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver.

I mentioned vx. Working fine here:

vx0: <3COM 3C590 Etherlink III PCI> port 0x1100-0x111f irq 20 at device 0.0 on 
pci16

-- 
Joel
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

>FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)

Can I open a FCP to rename FCP to FBS (for FreeBSD BikeShed) ?

Guys... most if not all of these emails could have been sent to
directly Brooks without Cc'ing four mailing lists.

Then Brooks could revise his tallies and scores to match informed
reality and _then_ we could discuss if the criteria were sound
on the list(s).

Poul-Henning (singing an almost 20 year old refrain again)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Charles Sprickman via freebsd-stable]

> On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Cy Schubert  wrote:
> 
> I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, and 
> sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I 
> can test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too.

I also have a stack of old stuff (almost certain there’s at least one vx in 
there - VORTEX power!).  If anyone needs cards, please contact me and if I have 
it, I’ll send it your way.  Also have some old video (AGP), sound (ISA), SATA 
(PCI-X) and other total rando stuff.

One place I see the older cards are in some firewall boxes that are in SFF 
boxes. Old PCI 10/100 NICs are more than adequate for backup WAN purposes 
(xDSL, cable, etc.) and some of the SFF boxes have one pci-e plus one pci slot 
and that’s it.

Charles

> 
> ---
> Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
> Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
> Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.
> 
> Cy Schubert
>  or 
> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
> ---
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Macklem
> Sent: 04/10/2018 07:41
> To: Warner Losh; Alexey Dokuchaev
> Cc: FreeBSD Net; freebsd-...@freebsd.org; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE 
> Mailing List; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> 
> Warner Losh wrote:
> [lots of stuff snipped]
>> That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to
>> iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid,
>> common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not
>> dozens.
> 
> I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both.
> Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted,
> so I can see what needs to be done?
> 
> Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree.
> 
> [more stuff snipped]
> 
> rick
> 
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Alex McKeever]

  
  
  

PowerPC is a split between Gigabit and Megabit Ethernet, I hope those 
drivers aren’t getting removed.



Get Outlook for iOS

  




On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:13 PM -0400, "Andrea Venturoli via freebsd-stable" 
 wrote:










On 10/4/18 7:38 PM, Warner Losh wrote:

> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.

I still have a vr integrated on an old MotherBoard.

As I said, if it goes away I'll find another solution; if it stays, the 
better.

I doubt it will survive until late 2023, BTW.

  bye
av.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Eugene Grosbein]

04.10.2018 21:26, Mark Linimon wrote:

> You can buy used core i5 laptops for around $20 if you shop around.

And plus even more for overseas delivery.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Ian Lepore]

On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > tech-lists wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how
> > > > > > > common
> > it is.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to
> > > > > > Brooks.  Brooks
> > as
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I
> > > > > guessed wrong
> > > > here
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I
> > > > > knew it
> > was
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's
> > > > > popularity had
> > > > waned
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems
> > > > > with rl in
> > them
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the
> > > > > SBCs we
> > used
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > at
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old
> > > > > technology
> > > > because
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare
> > > > > availability...).
> > > > > 
> > > > > Warner
> > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of
> > > > Microchip) are
> > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping
> > > > software
> > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build
> > > > systems with a
> > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability
> > > > and
> > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a
> > > > BIG reason
> > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things.
> > > > 
> > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production
> > > years
> > > ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users
> > > of
> > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping.
> > > That's a
> > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the
> > > efforts that
> > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl.
> > > 
> > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should
> > > still
> > be
> > > 
> > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was
> > > one that
> > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used
> > > in around
> > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will
> > > ever be
> > > upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked
> > > during my
> > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times
> > > were
> > > later...
> > > 
> > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb,
> > > sn, smc,
> > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this
> > > thread, and
> > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> > > 
> > > Warner
> > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the
> > list
> > we still use appears to be rl.
> > 
> > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So
> > I'll
> > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too.
> > 
> I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and
> that you
> may someday upgrade them as well?  Which of the Vortex86 processors
> are you
> using, if you can answer that...
> 
> Warner

It's a DM Vortex86DX on a PCA-6743 board, which you can still buy.

32-bit only, BTW, which is why I hate hearing recent mumblings about
discarding 32-bit x86 support in freebsd.

-- Ian
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:18 PM Eugene Grosbein  wrote:

> 05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
>
> vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as
> it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports
> in my home router).
>

Sorry, I'd meant to type vx. :) It's for the first generation of 3com cards
after the 3C5x9 ones supported by the ep driver.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Eugene Grosbein]

05.10.2018 0:38, Warner Losh wrote:

> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.

vr(4) mentioned in the STAY list or else I would be first yelling as
it is still very common in embedded solutions (including integrated ports in my 
home router).


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Eugene Grosbein]

04.10.2018 23:22, Brooks Davis wrote:

> In an effort to save some email, we will be moving rl(4) to the list of
> drivers to STAY as it has proved itself to be popular.  A few others
> appear to be well on their way so keep the reports coming.

And ste(4) please, as these are hardly replaceable two- and four-ports cards.
In many cases it is impossible to replace them without replacement of whole 
boxes
that have no extra PCI slots.


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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Andrea Venturoli via freebsd-stable]

On 10/4/18 7:38 PM, Warner Losh wrote:


I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.


I still have a vr integrated on an old MotherBoard.

As I said, if it goes away I'll find another solution; if it stays, the 
better.


I doubt it will survive until late 2023, BTW.

 bye
av.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Ian Lepore]

On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > tech-lists wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.
> > > > > 
> > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as
> > > > far as I can see is just the messenger.
> > > > 
> > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong
> > here
> > > 
> > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was
> > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had
> > waned
> > > 
> > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them
> > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used
> > at
> > > 
> > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology
> > because
> > > 
> > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...).
> > > 
> > > Warner
> > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are
> > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software
> > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a
> > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and
> > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason
> > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things.
> > 
> OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years
> ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of
> FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a
> clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that
> it's taken them to keep things current with rl.
> 
> In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be
> good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that
> had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around
> 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be
> upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my
> time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were
> later...
> 
> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> 
> Warner

I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list
we still use appears to be rl.

One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll
just preemptively mention that we do use that one too.

-- Ian
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore  wrote:

> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > tech-lists wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common
> it is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks
> as
> > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger.
> > > > >
> > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong
> > > here
> > > >
> > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it
> was
> > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had
> > > waned
> > > >
> > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in
> them
> > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we
> used
> > > at
> > > >
> > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology
> > > because
> > > >
> > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...).
> > > >
> > > > Warner
> > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are
> > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software
> > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a
> > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and
> > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason
> > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things.
> > >
> > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years
> > ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of
> > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a
> > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that
> > it's taken them to keep things current with rl.
> >
> > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still
> be
> > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that
> > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around
> > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be
> > upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my
> > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were
> > later...
> >
> > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
> > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
> > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.
> >
> > Warner
>
> I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list
> we still use appears to be rl.
>
> One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll
> just preemptively mention that we do use that one too.
>

I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and that you
may someday upgrade them as well?  Which of the Vortex86 processors are you
using, if you can answer that...

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Ian Lepore]

On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > tech-lists wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.
> > > 
> > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as
> > far as I can see is just the messenger.
> > 
> Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong here
> in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was
> popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had waned
> much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them
> around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used at
> Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology because
> that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...).
> 
> Warner

11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are
still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software
updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a
lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and
compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason
to use freebsd rather than linux for such things.

-- Ian

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore  wrote:

> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > tech-lists wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.
> > > >
> > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as
> > > far as I can see is just the messenger.
> > >
> > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong
> here
> > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was
> > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had
> waned
> > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them
> > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used
> at
> > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology
> because
> > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...).
> >
> > Warner
>
> 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are
> still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software
> updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a
> lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and
> compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason
> to use freebsd rather than linux for such things.
>

OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years
ago It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of
FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a
clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that
it's taken them to keep things current with rl.

In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still be
good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that
had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around
2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be
upgraded But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my
time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were
later...

I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc,
sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and
which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan 
wrote:

> tech-lists wrote:
> >
> > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.
> >
>
> I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as
> far as I can see is just the messenger.
>

Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong here
in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it was
popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had waned
much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in them
around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we used at
Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology because
that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...).

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<

A few points of clarification:

Rod correctly points out that this message makes it look like the FCP is
a done deal as written.  This is not the case and we welcome feedback
on the entire proposal.  IMO, soliciting input on the list of drivers
along with the proposed process is a way to keep discussion concrete so
we will proceed with both.

It was asked: when does iflib conversion need to occur to save a driver?
My proposed plan it to proceed with deprecation notices of otherwise
unpopular drivers, but conversion can come in and remove those notices
at and upto (or even after) removal from the tree.

In an effort to save some email, we will be moving rl(4) to the list of
drivers to STAY as it has proved itself to be popular.  A few others
appear to be well on their way so keep the reports coming.

Thanks,
Brooks

P.S. As a person who has edited every driver in the tree multiple times
in the last year (mostly in an external tree), I will consider this
process successful even if we keep the majority of listed drivers in the
tree.

On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +, Brooks Davis wrote:
> >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<
> 
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
> core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
> feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.
> 
> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe
> 
> The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:
> 
> dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl
> 
> The criteria for exception are:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>  deemed satisfy the "popular"
>  requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)
> 
> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.
> 
> The full FCP-0101 is included below.
> 
> -- Brooks
> 
> ---
> authors: Brooks Davis 
> state: feedback
> ---
> 
> # FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers
> 
> Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
> FreeBSD 13.
> 
> ## Problem Statement
> 
> Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
> improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
> 32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
> NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
> interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
> iflib, but each additional driver takes work.
> 
> 10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
> and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
> are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
> removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.
> 
> For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
> systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
> machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
> retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
> removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
> drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
> 12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).
> 
> ## Proposed Solution
> 
> We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
> will entail:
>  - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
>  - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
>attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
>to FreeBSD 12.
>  - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
>freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
>  - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
>devices.
> 
> Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
> list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
> the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
>  - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
>support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
>- 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
>  deemed satisfy the "popular"
>  requirement.
>  - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
>  - Ported to use iflib (reducing future 

Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:59 AM Rodney W. Grimes <
freebsd-...@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

> > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not
> > > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs,
> > > including wireless, currently installed here.
> > >
> >
> > There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has
> > evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and
> > committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the
> current
> > iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend.
>
> Nothing in the current state of the "freeze" would block a
> man page correction.
>

All commits, no matter how trivial, require re@ approval. That necessarily
slows things down, hence my phrase "as quickly as the freeze allows."

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Michelle Sullivan]

tech-lists wrote:


I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.



I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks.  Brooks as 
far as I can see is just the messenger.


--
Michelle Sullivan
http://www.mhix.org/

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RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Cy Schubert]

People need to submit patches then. OTOH, they can all be moved to ports. IMO, 
when pkgbase becomes a reality, much of this will become moot. People will be 
able to mix and match base and ports packages.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
 or 
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---

-Original Message-
From: Alexey Dokuchaev
Sent: 04/10/2018 08:11
To: Warner Losh
Cc: Mark Linimon; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org; freebsd-...@freebsd.org; 
FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List; FreeBSD Net
Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps.

Right.  My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one
basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used,
100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones.

That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps.
Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay.  Following up on Ricks'
question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would
help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable.

./danfe
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert 
> wrote:
> 
> > I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not
> > scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs,
> > including wireless, currently installed here.
> >
> 
> There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has
> evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and
> committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current
> iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend.

Nothing in the current state of the "freeze" would block a
man page correction.

-- 
Rod Grimes rgri...@freebsd.org
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 9:46 AM Cy Schubert 
wrote:

> I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not
> scheduled for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs,
> including wireless, currently installed here.
>

There's an iflib man page that's a decent place to start. The API has
evolved over time, so corrections to the man page would be welcome (and
committed as quickly as the freeze allows). I'm reading through the current
iflib drivers to see which one would be best to recommend.

Warner
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RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Cy Schubert]

I have rl, fxp, xl, dc, bge (which I have an uncommitted patch for), nfe, and 
sk. Not all are scheduled for removal but this is my inventory for which I can 
test and am willing to help out with. Add iwn and ath too.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
 or 
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---

-Original Message-
From: Rick Macklem
Sent: 04/10/2018 07:41
To: Warner Losh; Alexey Dokuchaev
Cc: FreeBSD Net; freebsd-...@freebsd.org; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing 
List; freebsd-a...@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Warner Losh wrote:
[lots of stuff snipped]
>That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to
>iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid,
>common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not
>dozens.

I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both.
Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted,
so I can see what needs to be done?

Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree.

[more stuff snipped]

rick

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RE: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Cy Schubert]

I'm willing to help out with rl(4) as I have one here. Others, not scheduled 
for removal, that I can help one way or another are are NICs, including 
wireless, currently installed here.

---
Sent using a tiny phone keyboard.
Apologies for any typos and autocorrect.
Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies.

Cy Schubert
 or 
The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
---

-Original Message-
From: Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: 04/10/2018 07:03
To: Warner Losh
Cc: Alexey Dokuchaev; Brooks Davis; FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List; FreeBSD Net; 
freebsd-a...@freebsd.org; freebsd-...@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers


In message 
, Warner Losh writes:

>Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the
>years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation
>because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the
>tree.

As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED!

It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Alexey Dokuchaev]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:43:33AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps.

Right.  My point was that original proposal put 10/100 drivers into one
basket, which is IMHO not fair: 10Mbps cards are rarely seen and used,
100mbps are not, just like 1000bps ones.

That said, I'm okay with deorbiting NICs that cannot do more than 10mbps.
Cards that can do at least 100mbps should stay.  Following up on Ricks'
question, seeing a good example of modernization a certain driver would
help interested people/hw owners to keep drivers for their cards viable.

./danfe
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 8:40 AM Alexey Dokuchaev  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:26:44PM +, Mark Linimon wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote:
> > > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen
> > > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
> > > are in fact 100.
> >
> > Sigh.  If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in
> > 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD.
>
> I don't quite understand why are you grouping 10/100 vs. 1000 rather than
> 10 vs. 100/1000.
>

As far as I know, none of the drivers listed could do 1Gbps. They were all
specifically 10Mbps or 10/100Mbps. Support for 10Mbps or 100Mbps isn't
being removed from the tree: there's still dozens of GigE drivers that can
do those speeds that have PCI or better bus attachments.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Alexey Dokuchaev]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 02:26:44PM +, Mark Linimon wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote:
> > OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen
> > one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
> > are in fact 100.
> 
> Sigh.  If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in
> 2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD.

I don't quite understand why are you grouping 10/100 vs. 1000 rather than
10 vs. 100/1000.

./danfe
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Rick Macklem]

Warner Losh wrote:
[lots of stuff snipped]
>That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to
>iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid,
>common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not
>dozens.

I can probably do this for bfe and fxp, since I have both.
Can someone suggest a good example driver that has already been converted,
so I can see what needs to be done?

Again, I don't care if they stay in the current/head tree.

[more stuff snipped]

rick

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Mark Linimon]

On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:44:11AM +, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote:
> OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't seen
> one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
> are in fact 100.

Sigh.  If you really plan to still be using i386 and 10/100 ether in
2024, perhaps you should consider NetBSD.

You can buy used core i5 laptops for around $20 if you shop around.

mcl
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, Warner Losh writes:

>Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the
>years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation
>because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the
>tree.

As one who has been there, a couple of times: SECONDED!

It is particular unpleasant when you have no way to test the changes.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:45 AM Alexey Dokuchaev  wrote:

> Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.  What exactly
> is the burden here?
>

I believe that characterization is incorrect. There's a burden. And it's
death of a thousand cuts. And many of those cuts have been inflicted on
brooks@.

Most of these drivers have had dozens or hundreds of commits each over the
years to keep up with the API changes. This acts as a tax on innovation
because it's such a pain in the back side to change all the drivers in the
tree. I did a back of the envelope computation that this is on the order of
hundreds of hours of time, spread across all the drivers over all the years
we've supported them. Some of these drivers are clearly unused, and so
that's 100% wasted effort. Most of these drivers are on machines that most
likely won't be able to run 13.0 well when it comes out in 2 years due to
increased memory demands that it will almost certainly have. The declining
use means we anticipate that if we were to maintain them until 13, it would
be wasted effort for at least some on the list.

That's why that one way to get the driver off the list is to convert to
iflib. That greatly reduces the burden by centralizing all the stupid,
common things of a driver so that we only have to change one place, not
dozens.

At the root of this problem is the community's long resistance to having
data reported back to the project data about the machines running FreeBSD.
Absent any real and significant data, the only way to know if things are
unused is to ask. We cannot have the act of merely asking cause people to
freak out and hurl expletives all over the place. That's significantly not
cool.

Warner
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Dag-Erling Smørgrav]

Alexey Dokuchaev  writes:
> Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.

Please do not confuse “nobody is maintaining them” with “they don't need
maintenance”, because they do.  And please assume good faith.  Brooks
asked for people to speak up if they care about some of the drivers he
proposed to remove; all you had to do was say “I still use this driver”.
There was no need to attack him, much less to swear.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Christoph Moench-Tegeder]

## Alexey Dokuchaev (da...@freebsd.org):

> > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
> 
> Holy shit!  OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't
> seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
> are in fact 100.

Don't panic - they're talking about removing the 100 MBps NICS, not
the 100 GBps NICs.

Jokes aside - obviously there are very different populations of NICS.
Here, the only 100MBps interface is in the IP phone, and I would guess
that even most consumer hardware comes with a GBps interface on board
(heck, even RPis have a GBit interface, even if can't use more than 30%
of it's bandwith). Checking with a hardware-dealer: very few NICs in
their catalog are 100MBps, most are gigabit-grade.
I would have expected that things look different in the embedded world...
On the other hand, some data centers I know routinely use 10GBps, and
1 GBps is considered "legacy" there.

So, perceptions are very different... let's keep this rational and
make a list of cards still in use.

Regards,
Christoph

-- 
Spare Space
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[tech-lists]

On 03/10/18 22:05, Brooks Davis wrote:

  We are solictiting
feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.

The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe


Please do not remove rl. I have two rl interfaces in a machine built in 
2011 still in daily use. One rl interface is an aftermarket card bought 
new in *2016*. The other one is built into the motherboard. That's just 
the stuff I personally own. rl is in lots of machines which will 
probably still be running a decade from now.


I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common it is.

--
J.
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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Trev]

On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +, Brooks Davis wrote:
FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
improving the network stack. >
The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.


Sill using my Asus EeePC 701 (just bought a new battery pack) for 
FreeBSD with ae nic (and I do not foresee discontinuing its use any time 
soon as its serial port comes in handy for talking to other serial devices).

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Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Alexey Dokuchaev]

On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 09:05:16PM +, Brooks Davis wrote:
> FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
> outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12

Holy shit!  OK I guess I can understand removing 10 (I personally haven't
seen one in a very long time) but 100 are omnipresent and most of my NICs
are in fact 100.

> and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
> improving the network stack.

Looking at the commits they require near zero maintenance.  What exactly
is the burden here?  Another question: why the fuck FreeBSD likes to kill
non-broken, low-volatile and perfectly working stuff?  We offer probably
the best NIC driver support on the block, yet you're proposing to shrink
one of the few areas where we shine.  WTF?!

> The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:
> 
> ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
> ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

ae(4) was used in Asus EeePC 701/900 which are still popular among hackers.
My home router uses sf(4) happily.  It's a dual-port card and I don't want
to look for expensive and completely needless replacement.  Other people
have already told you about ed/rl/etc.

> Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.

As it can be seen this list tends to cover nearly all 100 cards, yet no
one (pardon me if I missed those) asks for 10.  So how about making this
proposal cover only 10 cards, if you can't resist the itch to remove
something from the tree?

./danfe
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FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers

[Brooks Davis]

>>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<<

FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md)
outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12
and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and
improving the network stack.  We have discussed this within the
core team and intend to move forward as proposed.  We are solictiting
feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal.

The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is:

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

The current list of drivers that will STAY in the tree is:

dc, ffec, fxpl, hme, le, sis, vr, xl

The criteria for exception are:
 - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
 deemed satisfy the "popular"
 requirement.
 - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
 - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)

Please reply to this message with nominations to the exception list.

The full FCP-0101 is included below.

-- Brooks

---
authors: Brooks Davis 
state: feedback
---

# FCP 101: Deprecation and removal of 10/100 Ethernet drivers

Deprecate most 10 and 10/100Mbps Ethernet drivers and remove them before
FreeBSD 13.

## Problem Statement

Each network driver creates drag for the project as we attempt to
improve the network stack or provide new features such as expanded
32-bit compatibility.  For example, the author has edited every single
NIC driver more than once in the past year to update management (`ioctl`)
interfaces.  We could improve this situation by converting drivers to
iflib, but each additional driver takes work.

10 and 100 megabit Ethernet drivers are largely irrelevant today
and we have a significant number of them in the tree.  The ones that
are no longer used and/or are not known to be working need to be
removed due to the significant ongoing 'tax' on new development.

For at least a decade, most systems (including small embedded
systems) have shipped with gigabit Ethernet devices and virtual
machines commonly emulate popular gigabit devices.  We wish to
retain support for popular physical and virtual devices while
removing support for uncommon ones.  With a few exceptions these
drivers are unlikely to be used by our user base by the time FreeBSD
12 is obsolete (approximately 2024).

## Proposed Solution

We propose to deprecate devices which are not sufficiently popular.  This
will entail:
 - (October 2018) Send this list to freebsd-net and freebsd-stable.
 - (Before FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - October 2018) Update the manpages and
   attach routines for each device to be removed and merge those changes
   to FreeBSD 12.
 - (One month after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - January 2018) Remind
   freebsd-net and freebsd-stable users of pending deletion.
 - (Two months after FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE - February 2019) Delete deprecated
   devices.

Through out this process, solicit feedback on additions to the exception
list and update this document as required.  For a device to be placed on
the exception list the device must meet one of the following criteria:
 - Popular in applications where it is likely to be deployed beyond the
   support lifetime of FreeBSD 12 (late 2023).
   - 5 reports of uses in the wild on machines running FreeBSD 12 will be
 deemed satisfy the "popular"
 requirement.
 - Required to make a well supported embedded or emulation platform usable.
 - Ported to use iflib (reducing future maintenance cost.)

### Exceptions to removal

Device | Reason
---|-
ffec   | Onboard Ethernet for Vybrid arm7 boards
fxp| Popular device long recommended by the project.
dc | Popular device for CardBus card.
hme| Built in interface on many supported sparc64 platforms.
le | Emulated by QEMU, alternatives don't yet work for mips64.
sis| Soekris Engineering net45xx, net48xx, lan1621, and lan1641.
vr | Soekris Engineering net5501, some Asus motherboards.
xl | Popular device for CardBus card.

Note: USB devices have been excluded from consideration in this round.

### Device to be removed

ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn,
ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe

## Final Disposition

TBD


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