[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
Follow-up Comment #4, bug #19524 (project freeciv): Hello again. On a sitenode I tried to register but there appears to be a problem with the registration form. And now i'm even more confused. You say we're using the same client, but the clicks are reversed on yours compared to mine... Are you left handed? --- I think you are STILL mistakenly thinking that what I said describes what I experienced. No, I described how things should be, I do not mention the current situation! That is just insulting. What i am saying is that the game is complicated enough, and i don't wish for the controls to be any more complicated. I'd like the game to appeal to a wide variety of players; forcing the user to focus on which element of the UI the cursor is over can only drive away players who have to give half their attention to their children or something. --- I did not mean for it to be insulting, neither do I think it is. It's a pretty apt analogy from where I stand and it examplifies the point that the usual function of LMB is not some sort of selection but instead the PRIMARY action on a specific element. With the risk to repeat myself, the primary action on the MM is obviously navigating to the desired point and not selection. If i understand correctly, you are arguing against consistency with the LMB, and for consistency with the RMB [in 'orthogonal' domains]. The only conclusion i can draw from this is that you don't change to viewpoint on the main map except by clicking on the mini map, and that you wish for me to give up a click that i use regularly because you don't use it. In a perfect world, you could reassign those clicks to suit yourself. However since nobody's stepped forward to write such an interface, we currently have to use the controls as assigned by the developers. --- I think you understood correctly what I described this time, but I'd discourage your use of inconsistent. The rationale behind your argument is Although the widgets are different, one button should do the same, regardless, despite how useless that is - because it would be too complicated for the user to remember otherwise. The rationale behind my argument is Controls for individual widgets should be tailored for that widget. If one has the freedom to choose, for example in the reasearch pane, the function of buttons in other situations should be considered and consistency achieved So the only problem you see with my suggestion is that users will be overchallenged if the LMB does not select a unit on the MM? How come then, if I may ask you, that almost any other game with a MM, LMB on the MM jumps to that position? I think can tell you why: Because it's a general consensus that the LMB performs the primary (expected) action on a widget, like jumping to the position, and THAT's what the user expects. You are probably not agreeing only because you are familiar with what every newcomer experiences as inconsistent and awkward behaviour. Would YOU be overchallenged if a click on a MM takes you to the desired area? ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
Follow-up Comment #5, bug #19524 (project freeciv): Sorry, I forgot to reply to your last paragraph: The only conclusion i can draw from this is that you don't change to viewpoint on the main map except by clicking on the mini map, --- No. I do not remove ANY possibility from the current situation. To navigate the view you have the following options: * Click the Mini Map * Drag MMB on the Main Map * Push the cursor towards one of the edges à la Autoscroll (I propose this just now) and that you wish for me to give up a click that i use regularly because you don't use it. --- Which click would that be? In a perfect world, you could reassign those clicks to suit yourself. However since nobody's stepped forward to write such an interface, we currently have to use the controls as assigned by the developers. --- I think the control I suggest are more widely accepted, more intuitive and more consistent (with themselves and with other programs) than what you suggest. I think, as I said, you are only insisting on your point because you are used to it. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
Follow-up Comment #6, bug #19524 (project freeciv): Oh, and you can, of course, also still use the scrollbars, as before. -- ManDay ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
Follow-up Comment #2, bug #19524 (project freeciv): Reporter here (aka ManDay). Your comment has caused me more confusion than clearing things out. First of all I must add that this is the gtk2-client. I did not pay much attention to reporting this correctly for I assumed they were the same as for functionality. With that being said we should at least be sure of talking about the same thing now. But instead, I feel like you are talking about a completely different experience than me. To be clear: I don't want to dive into a discussion about what has changed some time in the past, what should be changed, etc. I'm in all simplicity claiming what it SHOULD BE. That said, why don't you limit your response to criticizing the issues which you reckon will arise in my suggestion, rather than defending the status quo by describing (for you might have thought I needed explanation of the controls) and endorsing it. I do not say that to rebuke you, of course, I just think you might have misunderstood my intentions. I do not require help understanding status quo. I claim that it's inconsistent and uneligible. Concerning the points you rose: Your argument that the controls on the Mini Map (MM) and the detailled map (DM) should be the same is well arguable, and I dissent. The MM and the DM are two completely domains with orthogonal use. Your argument is kind of like saying that if you click a button, you should get a caret. Because it would be too complicated for the user if a button and a textfield responded differently to a click. The opposite is in fact the case: Users expect LMB to perform the PRIMARY operation on a widget. While you certainly have a point that selection is often the primary operation of LMB, it surely is not in this case. It's not worth for much, that you can select a unit on the MM with enough accuracy. In my eyes, it's close to parodying that absurd dogma of same controls on every element. Could probably only be topped by MMB on the MM displaying an information of the completely undistinguishable tile underneath the cursor. Bottom line: Imposing identical controls on two completely different elements of the UI regardless of their differences and intrinsic application is absurd. Admitted, they are both maps - but that's about it. Its industry standard that a left click on the MM takes the camera to that point being clicked. Concerning your second bullet, RMB, you serve my argument on a silver tablet. RMB brings up an info in the Research Menu. So it would only be consistent if it brought up an info on the map, too, as I suggested. And yes, you currently can't select a foreign unit. Again, you make the impression that you misinterpreted this bug report as a request for help. No. I'm saying how things SHOULD BE. It would bring us a great deal forward if my suggestions were addressed accordingly and not indirectly, by elaborating on the current status quo. -- ManDay ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
Follow-up Comment #3, bug #19524 (project freeciv): Your comment has caused me more confusion than clearing things out. First of all I must add that this is the gtk2-client. And now i'm even more confused. You say we're using the same client, but the clicks are reversed on yours compared to mine... Are you left handed? Your argument is kind of like saying that if you click a button, you should get a caret. That is just insulting. What i am saying is that the game is complicated enough, and i don't wish for the controls to be any more complicated. I'd like the game to appeal to a wide variety of players; forcing the user to focus on which element of the UI the cursor is over can only drive away players who have to give half their attention to their children or something. The MM and the DM are two completely domains with orthogonal use. (snip) RMB brings up an info in the Research Menu. So it would only be consistent if it brought up an info on the map, too, as I suggested. If i understand correctly, you are arguing against consistency with the LMB, and for consistency with the RMB [in 'orthogonal' domains]. The only conclusion i can draw from this is that you don't change to viewpoint on the main map except by clicking on the mini map, and that you wish for me to give up a click that i use regularly because you don't use it. In a perfect world, you could reassign those clicks to suit yourself. However since nobody's stepped forward to write such an interface, we currently have to use the controls as assigned by the developers. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
Follow-up Comment #1, bug #19524 (project freeciv): I'm still using the GTK2 client rather than GTK3, but i wonder that the controls are that different? For me, right click (RMB) has always changed the viewpoint [either Mini Map or Main Map] and left click (LMB) has always been used for interaction [select a unit, change a worker, etc]. I'm not sure if that got swapped in GTK3 or if you have a utility running on your laptop to reverse those? Gnome does have the Left-handed option... In any case, my personal view is that ease of use is improved through simplification: the user shouldn't have to think twice about what window they are looking at before deciding if a certain click is going to deliver a nasty surprise. So in general: * LMB should select things. That has been standard usage since two button mice were invented. FWIW, if you are very precise you can select a unit with a LMB click on the Mini Map. * RMB moves the map, since that is a function that is needed often in FreeCiv. This functionality does not currently exist in a city map with when variable city radii are in use, but it should. There doesn't seem to be a consensus as to what this button should do in non-map tabs or windows. RMB in the research tab brings up help about the technology under the cursor, selects a unit in the overview tab of the city window, and does nothing in other places. Consistency is certainly lacking here. * MMB is ignored for the most part. AFAIK it is only ever used in the Main Map [where it gives information] and the Editor [where it brings up the Property Editor window]. On my laptop MMB is emulated by Alt-LMB. This is the Emulate three button mouse option of X11. I concede your point about left dragging doing things depending upon whether you have units selected or not, but you can in fact turn off the Keyboardless goto. In GTK2 this is found in Options - Local Client - Interface. There are some other relevant options in here as well, namely Select cities before units and Clear unit orders on selection. I don't have an opinion as to selecting multiple units - i generally avoid having more than one unit in a tile at a time, and thus force myself to move units individually. Oh, and you can't actually select a foreign unit - this is treated the same as clicking on an empty tile. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #19524] Improved controls
URL: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 Summary: Improved controls Project: Freeciv Submitted by: None Submitted on: Sun 04 Mar 2012 12:59:00 PM UTC Category: client-gtk-3.0 Severity: 1 - Wish Priority: 5 - Normal Status: None Assigned to: None Originator Email: Open/Closed: Open Release: Discussion Lock: Any Operating System: GNU/Linux Planned Release: ___ Details: As a newcomer to freeciv I've found myself struggling a little with the controls, especially navigating the map and commanding units. I think the controls could be made more intuitive by the following bindings Besides, and for it's all kind of related, I add this here, selecting multiple units appears to be a little inconsistent. I'd like to first describe what I imagined and explain why afterwards. Mini Map: * Left click in Mini Map takes focuses on that sector * Right click in Mini Map has no effect on navigation * Middle click in Mini Map has no effect on navigation Main Map: - Regardless of selected units: ¯¯ * Right click anywhere shows details of the thing underneath (normally, for a tile - but if in the future there is room for it, it could additionally display info for a city, etc) * Middle drag anywhere pans the map If no unit(s) is/are selected: ¯ * Left click on an empty tile has no effect * Left drag anywhere drags out a rectangle which selects multiple owned units * Left click on a unit or city selects the unit/opens the city dialog If multiple units (all owned by the client) are selected: ¯ * Left click on an empty tile deselects all selected units * Left drag anywhere traces out a path for each unit(s) to take to that point (as it is) * Left click on a unitgroup opens the sub-selection window, and proceeds with... * Selecting (clicking onto) another unit, not owned by the client, deselects all currently selected units and instead selects the single, foreing unit * Selecting (clicking onto) another unit, also owned by the client adds that unit to the current selection. If a foreing unit (not owned by the client) is selected: * Left click on an empty tile deselects that unit * Left drag anywhere drags out a rectangle which selects multiple owned units * Left click on a unitgroup and subsequent selection/or clicking on another unit deselects the currently selected foreign unit. I hope I did not forget anything. I'm aware that's quite a request, especially from a newcomer. Here is what I think is currently problematic and could all be solved: I've not yet a figured a practical use for the LMB in the Mini Map (MM) in the current setup. Instead, the RMB triggers what's actually the primary function of the MM, that is, move to a specific sector. Therefore, I think the LMB should be used for the primary (only?) use of the MM. I generally discourage the use of MMB. As a Laptop/Tablet user I have no MMB or only an awkward emulation thereof, so that I think that all functions should be readily accessible through L- and RMB, which appears completely possible in our case, as, on the other hand, the LMB and RMB appear not to be completely exploited yet. As for selecting, I think it is a bug that normally, you are not able to select multiple units (is that what the RMB is thought for?), but then, on the other hand, if a single unit is selected (somewhere) and you click on a unit-group and therein select Select All, suddenly both, the old unit and every member of that group get selected. That's a little awkward at places. So I think that policy I outlined rectifies most if not all of the problems and gives a more intuitive use of FC :) ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?19524 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
