Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2009-01-04 Thread Brandon J. Van Every

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

I think this should be in the ticket, so I'm sending it to RT.

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Kevin Benton kben...@yitr.com wrote:
 Brandon J. Van Every wrote:

 I don't see any big deal
 with RT because it's not my first instinct to look for someone else's
 bug to work on.  My first instincts are to:


 Okay - I'm glad you don't care.  I do care, however, because I think RT is a
 piece of garbage when it comes to tracking software development projects.  I
 also hate the way it's currently configured to prevent others from being
 able to view bugs and look for duplicates.  It's discouraging to those of us
 who actively want to participate in other parts of development like QA,
 Reviews, etc.  It's also discouraging for those of us on the outside
 looking in trying to get a sense of where things are in the development
 process because things are pretty hidden unless you actively try to look at
 bugs that wouldn't show up in normal searches.

My experience in open source is you have to communicate with other
developers somehow.  I've been heavily involved in a couple of smaller
projects.  They communicated by active mailing lists, and that worked
fine.  I've perused the Mozilla bug tracker.  Culturally, they use it
for communication instead of mailing lists.  They're a huge project so
perhaps they are justified in using bug trackers and newsgroups to
communicate.  It is quite amusing, however, to see vast threads of bug
tracker discussion that never go anywhere.  Especially when the
discussion goes for years, with big lulls between.  It's like the
collective gestalt of such a system is extremely limited.  The bug
tracker is only as good as the people and the work they actually do.

 2) evaluate the readability of the source code.  So far, I find it
 readable.

 Again - great, but why not let the issue tracking system help in the review
 process to make sure it's better still?

Because I don't personally need or benefit from that much process.  I
think swimming through muck is a core skill in open source
development.  If a person can't do it, then they just don't get
anywhere, and probably find something else to go do.  Also, all the
small projects I've seen, that have actually survived for a few years,
have had decently readable code.  The ones that don't just die,
because nobody can figure out how to contribute.  Freeciv is long past
that stage.

 4) evaluate the political tone and management of the project.  What do
 people really spend their time on?  What do they stew and get to
 loggerheads about?  What do they fail to get done?  What do they
 actively obstruct?

 Again - what does this have to do with the issue tracking system?

Because it's a mistake to advance a technology to solve a cultural problem.

 If all
 you want to do is write code, great and bring it on.  The problem I see is
 at some point, it needs to be scrutinized by others, integration tested, and
 issues need to be tracked and easy to look at for those who want to write
 code themselves.  This is where a good issue tracking system comes in.

Can you point to any open source project that's about the size of
Freeciv, that actually has a lot of programmers doing QA testbeds
instead of core development of new features?  Most people find this
quite boring, and I say that as a build engineer who has tried to goad
people into more QA.  My experience is that on small projects, it
doesn't happen.  So there is a danger of overengineering a bug
tracker, like expecting Mozilla-size development, when in fact it will
never happen.

 As I said earlier in this ticket, I'm willing to provide the elbow grease
 necessary, however, I am not willing to host it personally because I can't
 guarantee that I won't get hit by a bus and therefore, I am not able to
 guarantee it to be up.

Ok how about providing the elbow grease to solve that problem?  I
Googled for a few minutes and found there are definitely open source
services that provide bug trackers.  Show us one that's gonna stay
alive independent of you.

 I don't take lightly the commitment I'd be making if I choose to become a
 contributor to the Freeciv (or any other) project.  I choose carefully
 because I have a life and I need to make sure I don't give up too much of
 what's really important to me.  Freeciv is a way for me to relax.  I would
 like to contribute to it in certain areas like the CMA because I really
 think it could be improved a lot.  [...and several other game design ideas.]

Most volunteer developers care mainly about relaxing.  At least that's
what I see, in practice, as far as what they actually put their energy
into.  I think you can see why bug trackers and QA end up at the back
of the queue.  If QA isn't the #1 thing you want to do, are you sure
you want to walk down this road?  Maybe you should just dig into the
CMA code and whatever else.  Possibly accept RT for what it is: an
adequate, not best of breed, but 

Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2008-12-30 Thread Brandon J. Van Every

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 4:44 AM, Kevin Benton kben...@bentonfam.org wrote:

 My experience is that open source projects benefit from transparency
 with users and developers.  When it's easy for a wanna-be developer to
 look through issue lists, they can often pick something that'll be easy
 for them to get their feet wet in contributing.

Hi, I'm a developer, but not a wannabe.  That is to say, I'm an expert
coder and have used more than one bug tracker in more than one open
source project over the years.  I'm possibly interested in modifying
the Freeciv sources, I'm still evaluating that.  Your choice of bug
tracker has nothing whatsoever to do with my evaluation.  I think
perhaps you're assuming a particular target audience, a newbie or
intermediate level coder who doesn't quite know what they want to do,
that you as more senior developers want to structure and direct
somehow.  There are other kinds of potential project contributors out
there and perhaps considering their motivations and tastes would be of
greater benefit to your ongoing efforts.  I don't see any big deal
with RT because it's not my first instinct to look for someone else's
bug to work on.  My first instincts are to:

1) get the source code built.  If I can't build it, good chance the
project isn't mature and I move on.  I've been able to build Freeciv,
although on Windows it's less pleasurable than it could be.

2) evaluate the readability of the source code.  So far, I find it readable.

3) evaluate the modifiability of the source code.  So far, I'm not
sure the AI code conceptualizes anything the way I would.  My instinct
is to throw chunks of it out.  Either start from scratch, or determine
if a plugin architecture is reasonable.  But, I haven't finished
looking at it, so I will patiently evaluate what is reasonable to do.

4) evaluate the political tone and management of the project.  What do
people really spend their time on?  What do they stew and get to
loggerheads about?  What do they fail to get done?  What do they
actively obstruct?

To the last point: I went back and read the full history of this
ticket.  This has been all talk and no action for 2 years.  In an open
source community, if someone steps forward and provides the elbow
grease to get something done, just go for it.  Maybe RT vs. Bugzilla
isn't super valuable in the scheme of things, as you don't have that
many tickets, or developers willing to work on tickets.  Gosh, have
you ever looked through Mozilla's tickets and seen all the stuff
that's been sitting around for years and years, that again was all
talk and no action?  It's documentation and process for it's own sake,
it has no end result.  BUT, if you've got a gung ho volunteer who
actually will steward a new bug tracker, it's worth something just to
add that guy's ongoing manpower to the project.  I imagine Bugzilla
*is* better than RT in some fashion, that some kind of gain can be
made from changing, even if it is only a long term incremental gain.
The more important consideration is you get this guy working on the
project, stewarding something he considers Good.  That's how you build
project loyalty.

Resources, schmesources.  Don't any of you guys have a back pocket?
For cheapskates, I Googled a little.  What about these guys?
http://teamforge.net/


Cheers,
Brandon Van Every



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2008-12-29 Thread Roger Light

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

FWIW, the launchpad developers would help you import your bug
history into launchpad. I can't say for certain that it does RT
imports, but it does already integrate with RT instances - so you
can add bugs to the freeciv bug tracker through launchpad right now
so that any freeciv bugs related to ubuntu come back to freeciv as
well.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/bugtrackers/freeciv-rt
https://bugs.launchpad.net/freeciv

You can interact with bugs on launchpad through email as well as the
web interface.

One possible issue is that launchpad uses global bug numbers, so
there wouldn't be a direct mapping from old numbers to new numbers.
It may be possible to have bugs tagged with their RT bug number so
you could still search by that.

Cheers,

Roger



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-12-04 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

Daniel,

 If Bugzilla is indeed as easy to maintain as you say, I could volunteer
 to take responsibility for it.

 The question of hosting remains. AFAIK, four alternatives have been
 proposed over the years:

 freeciv.org
 sourceforge.net
 icculus.org
 seul.org

 Let's go through them:

 freeciv.org: Our own aging servers in Paul's basement. Are they up to
 the task? 
 sourceforge.net: The question was if bugzilla could run on SF.net webspace?
 icculus.org: IIRC, this was Per's contact. Status?
 seul.org: IIRC, this was Egor's contact. Status?

  ~Daniel
   

Bugzilla is pretty easy to administer these days.  You can try it out on
your own system if you'd like.  The installation guide is very good and
covers Linux well as well as Windows.  It requires: A web server
(preferrably Apache), a database server (preferrably MySQL), and Perl
(5.8.6 or greater IIRC).  One of the Bugzilla systems I manage at work
takes less than 200MB of disk with about 50,000 bugs and all its
associated data (attachments, code and templates included).  Bugzilla
has a tremendous reporting system and doing the queries you discussed in
your email 2-3 hours after this one are all well covered.  Users can
sign themselves up for Bugzilla if it is configured to allow it and it
now includes fairly good support for receiving emailed bug reports.

I strongly encourage giving it a try on your own system first.  Please
let me know if you need help.

Kevin



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-12-04 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

   
 sourceforge.net: The question was if bugzilla could run on SF.net webspace?
   
 Would be nice.
 
As has already been mentioned - SF has its own issue tracking system.
 Disk Quota: Each project is provided 100MB of disk space for their
 usage. I'm quite sure the RT database ecxeeds that already. (
 http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=4297group_id=1#acceptable_use
 )

   
Why is that?  What is causing the the high disk space usage?
Attachments?  Issues (unlikely)?  Code?  Something else?
 icculus.org: IIRC, this was Per's contact. Status?
 seul.org: IIRC, this was Egor's contact. Status?
   
 Is that any better than freeciv.org?

 

 Dunno. Haven't yet seen their terms of use.

   
 What about GNA?

 

 If you mean the tracker, there was the problem that all projects use
 common bug numbering. If we were to import a database of tens of
 thousands of reports, it'd upset that system.

   
Bugzilla provides the ability to use an alias for a bug, so it wouldn't
be a problem to create FCRTissueid as an alias for those that want
to use the old issue numbers.  That makes it easy to move to from
system and not worry about renumbering.  JIRA uses numbering per-project
so the same is true there.

 

 To me the biggest issue is carrying over the bug database.  Not that
 this is a show-stopper since it's clear that RT is not going to last
 forever and the longer we wait the worst the problem there will get -
 but, as RT is a simple database and bugzilla (or whatever) is a simple
 database it really shouldn't be too hard to transfer the whole thing over.
 

Jason, I agree.  The good thing about Bugzilla is that it does have the
ability to import XML.  The question is, how to deal with the bug's
history.  So - before migrating to any system, I think it's fair to ask
- what are the requirements for data coming from the old system?  How
much of it must be carried over versus what parts can be left behind?  I
would have to assume that the RT system would be available for at least
a short period after a migration was completed at least so that old data
could still be looked up.

Typically, the way I've done migrations like these is to write an import
script that imports data from an existing system into the new system,
first from a backed-up copy for development and testing purposes, then
on migration day, from the live system.

Kevin




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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-12-02 Thread Per I. Mathisen

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

On Dec 2, 2007 1:11 AM, Jason Dorje Short [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  We have to ask to get clarity on this matter. Who was in contact the
  gna.org folks when we migrated to svn? Vasco? Jason?

 Vasco or Per.

I do not recall doing that. In any case, all you need is to place a
support request at https://gna.org/support/?group=admin

  - Per



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-12-01 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 
 
 [wsimpson - Fri Nov 30 07:30:12 2007]:

 [snippet]

 Should GNA be willing to run bugzilla, that would be an option once
 everything has been converted.


 
 We have to ask to get clarity on this matter. Who was in contact the
 gna.org folks when we migrated to svn? Vasco? Jason?

Vasco or Per.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-30 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

I'm pretty sure that sourceforge runs its own tracking system.

My preference would be to at least do the conversion to bugzilla on the
current systems in place.  There are scripts available that do the
conversion from RT, easily found by Googling.

   http://www.socialtext.net/lite/page/open/bugzilla_migration_methodology

Although somebody with PERL ability (not me) should modify the scripts to
move everything, rather than only open tickets.

Should GNA be willing to run bugzilla, that would be an option once
everything has been converted.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-30 Thread Erik Johansson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

On Nov 30, 2007 9:25 AM, Jason Dorje Short [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

 William Allen Simpson wrote:
  URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 
 
  I'm pretty sure that sourceforge runs its own tracking system.
 
  My preference would be to at least do the conversion to bugzilla on the
  current systems in place.  There are scripts available that do the
  conversion from RT, easily found by Googling.
 
 http://www.socialtext.net/lite/page/open/bugzilla_migration_methodology
 
  Although somebody with PERL ability (not me) should modify the scripts to
  move everything, rather than only open tickets.
 
  Should GNA be willing to run bugzilla, that would be an option once
  everything has been converted.

 Sounds good.

 Who currently has access (an account) in the RT machine?


Per...

I have a mysql  dump of the RT database, from ca. januari 2007.



-- 
/emj



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-30 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

William Allen Simpson wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 
 
 I'm pretty sure that sourceforge runs its own tracking system.
 
 My preference would be to at least do the conversion to bugzilla on the
 current systems in place.  There are scripts available that do the
 conversion from RT, easily found by Googling.
 
http://www.socialtext.net/lite/page/open/bugzilla_migration_methodology
 
 Although somebody with PERL ability (not me) should modify the scripts to
 move everything, rather than only open tickets.
 
 Should GNA be willing to run bugzilla, that would be an option once
 everything has been converted.

Sounds good.

Who currently has access (an account) in the RT machine?

-jason



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-30 Thread Daniel Markstedt

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

On 11/30/07, Jason Dorje Short [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

 Daniel Markstedt wrote:

  freeciv.org: Our own aging servers in Paul's basement. Are they up to
  the task?

 To be avoided.

  sourceforge.net: The question was if bugzilla could run on SF.net webspace?

 Would be nice.


Disk Quota: Each project is provided 100MB of disk space for their
usage. I'm quite sure the RT database ecxeeds that already. (
http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=4297group_id=1#acceptable_use
)

  icculus.org: IIRC, this was Per's contact. Status?
  seul.org: IIRC, this was Egor's contact. Status?

 Is that any better than freeciv.org?


Dunno. Haven't yet seen their terms of use.

 What about GNA?


If you mean the tracker, there was the problem that all projects use
common bug numbering. If we were to import a database of tens of
thousands of reports, it'd upset that system.

 

 To me the biggest issue is carrying over the bug database.  Not that
 this is a show-stopper since it's clear that RT is not going to last
 forever and the longer we wait the worst the problem there will get -
 but, as RT is a simple database and bugzilla (or whatever) is a simple
 database it really shouldn't be too hard to transfer the whole thing over.

 -jason




 ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-29 Thread Daniel Markstedt

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

Requirements a la book, veteran warserver programmer:

Besides being reasonably avaliable, responsive and bugfree,
it should be easy to find the answer to such questions as:

- What are the most severe bugs and who (if anyone) is working on them?
- What is a given user working on right now?
- Given my level of programming skill, what can I do to help?
- What features are most required/requested?
- Who is working on said features?
- What is the work history of a given user?
- What are all the patchs dealing with a given feature/program component?

Oh, and it should not be susceptible to spamming.

From this forum thread (a good read, BTW) -
http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=4200

 ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-29 Thread Paul Zastoupil

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 


On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 15:33 -0800, Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Wed Nov 14 01:54:33 2007]:
  
  On Sun, 2007-11-11 at 09:07 -0800, Per Inge Mathisen wrote:
   URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 
   
   On Nov 11, 2007 5:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From the hosting standpoint, if freeciv.org becomes a 401c3, then it
could collect donations so that it could pay for its own hosting if it
had to.
   
   The problem has always been to find someone who could host it with an
   absolutely minimum of work needed to maintain it from our end.
   
   Registering and maintaining a charity is almost a full time job.
   
Has anyone looked into sourceforge?
   
   Last I checked, it could not run bugzilla.
   
 - Per
   
  
  Hosting Bugzilla is actually very lightweight on time intensiveness from
  an administrative perspective. It's now possible to give the ability to
  manage individual product configurations to individuals that are not
  administrators without giving away the keys to the rest of the
  installation.  In the past three years, I can count on one hand the
  number of times I had to fix things with Bugzilla, Apache, and MySQL
  (Linux based).
  
  In any case, I don't really care if it's Bugzilla, Sourceforge, Trac,
  Jira, or something else.  My point is that right now, the current issue
  tracking system could do a lot more to help foster contributions.
  Rather than spending a lot of resources fixing RT, why not use something
  that does a much better job meeting the needs out of the box?
  
  Kevin
  
  
  
 
 If Bugzilla is indeed as easy to maintain as you say, I could volunteer
 to take responsibility for it.
 
 The question of hosting remains. AFAIK, four alternatives have been
 proposed over the years:
 
 freeciv.org
 sourceforge.net
 icculus.org
 seul.org
 
 Let's go through them:
 
 freeciv.org: Our own aging servers in Paul's basement. Are they up to
 the task? 

For what it is worth, they are not in my basement, but in a real
datacenter.  They are old.  I do have a little money that has been
donated to buy some new ones, but I can no longer host it as I will be
in Africa (am actually here now for a few weeks.)  I can no longer
maintain the servers.

 sourceforge.net: The question was if bugzilla could run on SF.net webspace?
 icculus.org: IIRC, this was Per's contact. Status?
 seul.org: IIRC, this was Egor's contact. Status?
 
  ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#16811) Issue tracking system for Freeciv

2007-11-29 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=16811 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:

 freeciv.org: Our own aging servers in Paul's basement. Are they up to
 the task? 

To be avoided.

 sourceforge.net: The question was if bugzilla could run on SF.net webspace?

Would be nice.

 icculus.org: IIRC, this was Per's contact. Status?
 seul.org: IIRC, this was Egor's contact. Status?

Is that any better than freeciv.org?

What about GNA?



To me the biggest issue is carrying over the bug database.  Not that 
this is a show-stopper since it's clear that RT is not going to last 
forever and the longer we wait the worst the problem there will get - 
but, as RT is a simple database and bugzilla (or whatever) is a simple 
database it really shouldn't be too hard to transfer the whole thing over.

-jason



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