Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-11 Thread Per I. Mathisen

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Marko Lindqvist wrote:
 Is the coastline check at the end of a (goto) move or performed for
 every step a trireme might take?

 Every step.

 This is too harsh for triremes.

It is a bit harsh.

 They can transport units to other islands only if there is one or two 
 ocean tiles in between.

But this is not quite right. During testing I usually managed to find 
neighbouring islands easily. Maybe this was an artefact of the map 
generator and map seed I was using, but it is as clear cut as you make it 
sound.

Do you find it unacceptable as a step on the way to deep ocean?

   - Per



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-11 Thread Daniel Markstedt

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

On 2/11/07, Marko Lindqvist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

 On 2/11/07, Per I. Mathisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Marko Lindqvist wrote:
   They can transport units to other islands only if there is one or two
   ocean tiles in between.
 
  But this is not quite right. During testing I usually managed to find
  neighbouring islands easily. Maybe this was an artefact of the map
  generator and map seed I was using, but it is as clear cut as you make it
  sound.

  Well, if your testing shows that it's not too much of a problem...
 I'm not happy with this, but I can accept it. Have you tested with
 different landmass settings?

  Do you find it unacceptable as a step on the way to deep ocean?

  Actually, I wonder if there is much point in making temporary
 solutions when final solution is already so close. But then again, it
 might be a long time before we get that gfx.


  - ML


If we request it, I'm sure Eleazar could produce the missing graphics
quite easily.

http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=1846

 ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-11 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

Per I. Mathisen wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 
 
 On Sun, 11 Feb 2007, Marko Lindqvist wrote:
 Have you tested with different landmass settings?
 
 No, but I will do that before committing anything.
 
 Do you find it unacceptable as a step on the way to deep ocean?
 Actually, I wonder if there is much point in making temporary
 solutions when final solution is already so close. But then again, it
 might be a long time before we get that gfx.
 
 The temporary solution itself is very small. The big change is ripping out 
 the dangerous position related code, which would be done in any case.
 
 However, if we are to simplify the path finding code, we need the 
 dangerous position code cleaned up or removed first, and I would rather 
 not have that wait more than necessary.

This is a fine step for the development branch on the way to deep ocean.
 All it means is that we are committed to fixing up deep ocean before
the next release.

-jason



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-10 Thread Per I. Mathisen

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Christian Knoke wrote:
 This patch removes all unsafe terrain, both the unsafe terrain flag
 (currently unused, used to set for glaciers, but was removed since it
 was annoying) and unsafe ocean for triremes. Instead, triremes simply
 cannot travel into an ocean square with no coastline.

 Doesn't this mean it will be harder for triremes to discover new land?

Yes, unfortunately.

 There is an issue, though, which is that the server checks its global
 knowledge of coastlines to determine whether a trireme can go
 somewhere.

 Is the coastline check at the end of a (goto) move or performed for
 every step a trireme might take?

Every step.

   - Per



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-10 Thread Marko Lindqvist

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

On 2/10/07, Per I. Mathisen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Christian Knoke wrote:
  This patch removes all unsafe terrain, both the unsafe terrain flag
  (currently unused, used to set for glaciers, but was removed since it
  was annoying) and unsafe ocean for triremes. Instead, triremes simply
  cannot travel into an ocean square with no coastline.
 
  Doesn't this mean it will be harder for triremes to discover new land?

 Yes, unfortunately.

  There is an issue, though, which is that the server checks its global
  knowledge of coastlines to determine whether a trireme can go
  somewhere.
 
  Is the coastline check at the end of a (goto) move or performed for
  every step a trireme might take?

 Every step.

 This is too harsh for triremes. They can transport units to other
islands only if there is one or two ocean tiles in between.


 - ML



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-10 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

Per I. Mathisen wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 
 
 This patch removes all unsafe terrain, both the unsafe terrain flag
 (currently unused, used to set for glaciers, but was removed since it
 was annoying) and unsafe ocean for triremes. Instead, triremes simply
 cannot travel into an ocean square with no coastline.

No objection.

 There is an issue, though, which is that the server checks its global
 knowledge of coastlines to determine whether a trireme can go
 somewhere. So the user can try to move the trireme toward unexplored
 tiles and whether and if the unexplored tiles are coastline, the move
 will succeed and explore them, but if they are ocean, the move will
 fail. This might seem wrong - the trireme's refusal to leave the
 coastline should depend on the client knowledge, not the server
 knowledge. This looks quite a bit harder to implement, though. On the
 other hand, if we think about it in terms of deep vs shallow waters,
 there most likely is shallow water whereever the trireme is allowed to
 go - the client just cannot display it yet. So if this is just a step
 on the way to implementing deep vs shallow ocean, perhaps it is ok as
 it is.

Yes, this is unacceptable in the long run.  Deep-ocean is the solution.

-jason



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#35646) Remove unsafe terrain

2007-02-10 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 

Per I. Mathisen wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=35646 
 
 On Sat, 10 Feb 2007, Christian Knoke wrote:
 This patch removes all unsafe terrain, both the unsafe terrain flag
 (currently unused, used to set for glaciers, but was removed since it
 was annoying) and unsafe ocean for triremes. Instead, triremes simply
 cannot travel into an ocean square with no coastline.
 Doesn't this mean it will be harder for triremes to discover new land?
 
 Yes, unfortunately.

Not necessarily.  With shallow and deep ocean, triremes are allowed to
travel anywhere there is shallow ocean.  Once this is implemented,
depending on the settings (how much shallow versus deep ocean is
created) the range of triremes could actually be increased.

In the simplistic system Per is proposing where triremes are confined to
coastline, yes their range is lowered because they cannot cross
non-coastal areas.

-jason



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