Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report to _Inspect

2007-11-28 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Committed as part of S2_1 revision 14100.
Committed as part of S2_2 revision 14101.
Committed as part of trunk revision 14102.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Christian Knoke wrote:
 No, I didn't. Which PR number?
 
Your reply included the PR# in your second message, so we know you've
previously seen it


 'Update' is misleading. It's rather 'change'. But you also have
 'change' in the production submenue.
 
As I suspected, a language problem.  Alter, Change, Edit, Modify, and
Update are all relatively synonymous.  Update is a technically clearer
choice here than change (which is a very ambiguous generic term).

   http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=change
   http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=update

_Change would of course conflict with many screens -- as would C_hange,
Ch_ange, Cha_nge, Chan_ge, Chang_e -- so we cannot use it here.

_Modify would conflict with _Map (which is *always* displayed).

_Update (or _Upgrade on other tabs) is a much *safer* menu choice.


 The prob is the 1:n ratio in the UI city report/window.
 
I suspect the user will only make this mistake once  OTOH, it appears
that the screen designer had this intent, as otherwise there isn't much
use for the Select button.

Note that _Update isn't allowed (grayed out) until a city is selected.
Visual indication of its direct relationship to a city.

The same would happen with any imperative command with many selections.
Note that _Buy will cause a similar multiple incidents, and Cen_ter has
no possible meaning (somebody should look at that).

Perhaps Buy, Center, and Update should be grayed out whenever more than
one city is selected.


 This is something I haven't really checked, or had had the time to do
 up to now. Thank you for pointing out.
 
A language problem compounded by lack of understanding the menu system.

You are welcome.  I look forward to your further feedback when you've
checked *all* of the translations for possibilities (as I already did).
Each translator is responsible for their own Alt-key conflict resolution.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread Erik Johansson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

On Nov 26, 2007 1:21 PM, William Allen Simpson

 You are welcome.  I look forward to your further feedback when you've
 checked *all* of the translations for possibilities (as I already did).
 Each translator is responsible for their own Alt-key conflict resolution.

Are there tools available for this, or guidelines, is there anyway to
mark strings that are active on the same screen? Because the times
I've done translation it's almost impossible to know what you should
use as a shortcut key. I think in most cases it might not be a good
idea to add shortcut keys.

Further I think Escape should be used to access the map, it's the most
important of all the shortcut keys but is the most awkward to use.
Pluss that would also free up alt-m.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread Christian Knoke

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 


Hello, William,

  'Update' is misleading. It's rather 'change'. But you also have
  'change' in the production submenue.
  
 As I suspected, a language problem.  Alter, Change, Edit, Modify, and
 Update are all relatively synonymous.  Update is a technically clearer
 choice here than change (which is a very ambiguous generic term).
 
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=change
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=update

Thank you. Quote:

Verb

* S: (v) update (modernize or bring up to date) We updated the
kitchen in the old house
* S: (v) update (bring up to date; supply with recent information)
* S: (v) update (bring to the latest state of technology)

That supports me in my standing opinion that 'Update' is the wrong term
here.

[opening mistakingly a dozen of city windows]

 I suspect the user will only make this mistake once

Yes, because he or she stopps playing Freeciv after that ...

 A language problem compounded by lack of understanding the menu system.

Choosing UI terms for the sake of fitting shortcuts instead of meaning?

Christian

-- 
Christian Knoke* * *http://cknoke.de
* * * * * * * * *  Ceterum censeo Microsoft esse dividendum.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Christian Knoke wrote:
 * S: (v) update (modernize or bring up to date) We updated the
 kitchen in the old house
 * S: (v) update (bring up to date; supply with recent information)
 * S: (v) update (bring to the latest state of technology)
 
 That supports me in my standing opinion that 'Update' is the wrong term
 here.
 
That is exactly the *correct* meaning.  Just as you update a kitchen to
remove or replace its appliances, you update the city to remove or replace
its workers and infrastructure.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Erik Johansson wrote:
 Are there tools available for this, 

Not that I'm aware of.


 ... or guidelines, 

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Aa511258.aspx


 ... is there anyway to
 mark strings that are active on the same screen?

Nope.  Pretty straightforward: bring up a game, hit F1, F2, ..., look at
the menu items, and try out the shortcut keys to make sure they work.


 ... Because the times
 I've done translation it's almost impossible to know what you should
 use as a shortcut key. I think in most cases it might not be a good
 idea to add shortcut keys.
 
Actually, *every* action needs a shortcut key, so that disabled users can
select them without a mouse.  Which is a specified goal for 2.1, and what
the previous bug report described.


 Further I think Escape should be used to access the map, it's the most
 important of all the shortcut keys but is the most awkward to use.
 Pluss that would also free up alt-m.
 
Escape is *always* cancel.

I've tried out tab -- it doesn't seem to do anything yet.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

William Allen Simpson wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 
 
 Christian Knoke wrote:
 No, I didn't. Which PR number?

 Your reply included the PR# in your second message, so we know you've
 previously seen it

Please be polite.  Just because he asks a question that takes 10 seconds 
to answer, instead of spending 5-10 minutes re-scanning old texts, is 
not a good reason to be patronizing.  And you didn't answer the question.

 'Update' is misleading. It's rather 'change'. But you also have
 'change' in the production submenue.

 As I suspected, a language problem.  Alter, Change, Edit, Modify, and
 Update are all relatively synonymous.  Update is a technically clearer
 choice here than change (which is a very ambiguous generic term).

Neither update nor change is synonymous with opening a popup window. 
  Nor are any of the other synonyms.  In fact, nothing is updated or 
changed when the button is pressed.

 The same would happen with any imperative command with many selections.
 Note that _Buy will cause a similar multiple incidents, and Cen_ter has
 no possible meaning (somebody should look at that).

Buy is supposed to have a confirmation dialog (not sure if it's per-city 
or not).

 Perhaps Buy, Center, and Update should be grayed out whenever more than
 one city is selected.

The popup-city-dialog button should certainly NOT be greyed out when 
multiple cities are chosen.  This is an oft-needed feature for some 
players (to look closely at all cities fitting certain criteria).

Likewise buying in multiple cities is also quite useful at the later 
stages of the game.

The center button could be deselected with multiple cities selected.

 This is something I haven't really checked, or had had the time to do
 up to now. Thank you for pointing out.

 A language problem compounded by lack of understanding the menu system.
 
 You are welcome.  I look forward to your further feedback when you've
 checked *all* of the translations for possibilities (as I already did).
 Each translator is responsible for their own Alt-key conflict resolution.

This isn't a problem of translation, for as you've pointed out each 
translator is responsible for their own conflict resolution.  All we 
need to worry about therefore is the English system and in finding a way 
for translators to reasonably be able to deal with shortcut conflict 
resolution (currently impossible for most with a reasonable time 
investment IMO).

The fact remains that Update as a synonym for popup window is a 
non-starter.

-jason



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

William Allen Simpson wrote:

 ... Because the times
 I've done translation it's almost impossible to know what you should
 use as a shortcut key. I think in most cases it might not be a good
 idea to add shortcut keys.

 Actually, *every* action needs a shortcut key, so that disabled users can
 select them without a mouse.  Which is a specified goal for 2.1, and what
 the previous bug report described.

You've correctly identified the problem but I still see no solution 
proposed.  Leaving it all for the translators without any support is 
simply not going to work.

Improving documentation and differentiation among strings would be a 
quick improvement.  TRANS comments and translation prefixes (with one 
?window: prefix per different window that is self-conflicting) can help 
translators to tell which strings must avoid conflict.  This will 
probably require the use of Q_ to be added in many places.  And it will 
only go so far as it is still up to the translator to check for 
conflicts at the end.

Another useful tool might be listing all commands available on each 
screen, with shortcut.  A simple text output to do so can then be 
checked by translators and conflicts will be apparent.  But this output 
must not be tied to any GUI and therefore will be tedious to maintain.

A third tool would be auto-detection of conflicts at runtime.  An output 
message (or even a popup window) could alert the user to report a bug. 
This would be easy to maintain, once written, but requires the game to 
be run for conflicts to be checked.

None of these seems fully satisfactory to me.

-jason



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread Erik Johansson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

On Nov 26, 2007 5:21 PM, William Allen Simpson
 http://developer.apple.com/...

A better reference is
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Accessibility/Conceptual/AccessibilityMacOSX/index.html

  ... Because the times
  I've done translation it's almost impossible to know what you should
  use as a shortcut key. I think in most cases it might not be a good
  idea to add shortcut keys.
 
 Actually, *every* action needs a shortcut key, so that disabled users can
 select them without a mouse.

Perhaps, but there is such a thing as to many shotcut keys or buttons,
but I'm sure someone has discussed this to death on some mailinglist
somwhere.  but the popup city button seems kind of stupid anyways,
typical thing you would remove if you love GNOME hig.

Ha! I just spent the weekend with a guy working with SUN on a 3 year
Gnome accessiblity project. But we aren't using Gnome.


  Further I think Escape should be used to access the map, it's the most
  important of all the shortcut keys but is the most awkward to use.
  Pluss that would also free up alt-m.
 
 Escape is *always* cancel.

Yes, but it can be used and it's kind of logical, we can still keep
the 'm' key, you don't want to grab the tab key. ESC works for;
Dialogs just close the dialog and bring up the last used tab, tabs
(e.g. city list) you just switch to the map tab

So ESC works great for bringing up the map.

-- 
/emj



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Jason Dorje Short wrote:
 Neither update nor change is synonymous with opening a popup window. 
   Nor are any of the other synonyms.  In fact, nothing is updated or 
 changed when the button is pressed.
 
(heavy sigh)  Someday, somebody else will read the HIG before arguing.  Yes,
I've been an Apple developer since 1985, so I've certain expectations.  And
I'm much less familiar with Gnome HIG, as my expertise on Unix is primarily
network code.  But still, they don't seem that terribly different.

As I explained earlier (and I wish you'd read the entire thread before
replying), opening a popup window is a programming concept.  It is not a
user concept.

The user concepts here are phrased in action terms (all city related):

   Select, Display, Update, Buy, and Center.

Select does not select anything, it brings up a floating menu.

Display does not display anything, it brings up a floating checklist.

Update does not update anything, it brings up a floating window.  Nobody
cares that it is called a popup window in GTK (and has other names in
other GUI environments).

Popup is not something you can do to a city.  I'd like to see you try!
There are some fine SF stories along those lines

This is only one of two places this idiotic term was used, and I've fixed
both of them!


 Buy is supposed to have a confirmation dialog (not sure if it's per-city 
 or not).
  
That doesn't happen here.  But I agree that it should!



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-26 Thread Jason Dorje Short

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

William Allen Simpson wrote:
 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 
 
 Jason Dorje Short wrote:
 Neither update nor change is synonymous with opening a popup window. 
   Nor are any of the other synonyms.  In fact, nothing is updated or 
 changed when the button is pressed.

 As I explained earlier (and I wish you'd read the entire thread before
 replying), opening a popup window is a programming concept.  It is not a
 user concept.

Opening a window is a user concept.  popup, itself, is not even a word.

I have not read any apple HIG and have only skimmed the gnome HIG, but I 
find it hard to believe it doesn't say that actions should be 
self-explanatory.

 Select does not select anything, it brings up a floating menu.

Speaking as a user I have no idea what that does without trying it.

 Display does not display anything, it brings up a floating checklist.

Speaking as a user I have no idea what that does without trying it.

 Update does not update anything, it brings up a floating window.  Nobody
 cares that it is called a popup window in GTK (and has other names in
 other GUI environments).

Speaking as a user I have no idea what that does without trying it.

-jason



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report to _Inspect

2007-11-26 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 Instead I propose Inspect, as an analogy of you as the leader personally 
 visiting the city to inspect it.
 
Good idea; I'll do that tomorrow, after checking for conflicts.

Will need something else for _Update City in the Message tab.  (It opens
the city on the selected line.  Double clicking works, too.)  If we can
replace Chat, as I've proposed in PR#39912, I'd suggest Check City --
check is sorta like inspect.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-25 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 I thought we agreed that only clearly broken strings in S_1 were to be 
 touched...
 
Go back and read the report.  The old _Popup interfered with other _P.  Also,
this was the only place in the code that a button was called popup -- really
a programming concept, not a user concept.  Broken on two counts.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-25 Thread Christian Knoke

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 


 Just renamed from Popup (PR#23078).  Nobody complained (or otherwise
 commented) during the standard review period  There's another similar
 button elsewhere named Update City.  Would that be better here?

Update and Update City are both wrong. There's nothing to be
updated. Take Open City, Open City Window, or just city window.
Popup City or Popup might be ok as well.

Christian

-- 
Christian Knoke* * *http://cknoke.de
* * * * * * * * *  Ceterum censeo Microsoft esse dividendum.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-25 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

There must be a language barrier here, or you didn't read the relevant
problem report.

(1) The buttons (in this dialog) are phrased as a desired user action.
Select, Display, Update, etc.

(2) The user doesn't want to Open the city, they want to Change, Modify, or
Update the city itself.  Open Window or Popup have no actionable meaning
here (other than to a programmer).

(3) You cannot use any of _O, _C, or _W; they are already taken.  The
original problem report is about the inability to use Alt- to activate the
menu items, a serious usability issue!

(4) When translating, you do understand that you have to select _ keys
based on the GUI panes visible?  Each translation can have different keys,
correct?

Think about Human Interface Guidelines, not like a programmer.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#39900) _Update button in city report

2007-11-24 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=39900 

Just renamed from Popup (PR#23078).  Nobody complained (or otherwise
commented) during the standard review period  There's another similar
button elsewhere named Update City.  Would that be better here?

Probably the original authors didn't think you needed to know that it was
about a city in the city report window



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