Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-15 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Perfect. :-)

On Jan 14, 2008 10:46 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You're right. There you go.

 Joan

 2008/1/15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] :
 
  URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 
 
  On Jan 14, 2008 9:33 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   So, last patch (for now) for catalan.ruleset in 2.1.
  
   Basically, it's the same as the current ruleset, with no translatable
   strings changed, and:
  [...]
 
  It's almost perfect. You forgot to add  (ocean) to both Guardamar
 cities. :-)
 
 
  --
  Miguel Farah
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 





-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-14 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

This transaction appears to have no content
So, last patch (for now) for catalan.ruleset in 2.1.

Basically, it's the same as the current ruleset, with no translatable
strings changed, and:
- two more rulers.
- removed portuguese from civilwar_nations (they are too far) and added
french, which actually makes historical sense (several Catalan cities
became French after a war) in the XVII century.
- modified the comment to reflect that it corresponds to lands settled by
Catalans, where Catalan is still spoken today. There is also a historical
basis (of lands ruled by Catalans) but is not limited to the current
definition of Catalonia.
- added a few cities, including some Andorran ones, and removed the Occitan
city of Tolosa.

About medieval or not, your call. I'd leave it, since the Middle Ages is
usually considered the time of splendour of the Catalan empire.

Cheers,

Joan


2008/1/8, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 Daniel Markstedt wrote:
  Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone.
 
 Yeah, it was kinda fun spending several hours learning something entirely
 new to me

 There are a lot of parallels to arguments over Romans and Greeks and Kurds
 and Armenians, among others.


  I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans
  form while removing it from the 'medieval' group, leaving it simply
  European.
 
 Investigation showed the Catalans *were* medieval, the cities listed (with
 one exception) are properly from the medieval areas.  The Països
 Catalans
 are merely an attempt to reunite the culturally related areas.

 (Being of Scottish ancestry, and in communication with Scottish 2nd and
 3rd
 cousins, I understand and sympathize.)

 The silly idea that the label Crown of ... is more important is
 confusing
 heraldic precedence with reality.  The Aragonese princess was a child
 bride,
 the dominate dynasty was Catalan, the capital was Catalan.

 Aragonese culture wasn't the primary culture that was spread, and the
 present language distribution demonstrates the reality

 We've seen this before with Greeks.  Alexander the Great wasn't Greek
 (unless you subscribe to the theory that all French and Spanish are
 actually Italian because the language root is the same).  He *conquered*
 the Greeks.  The Empire was officially Macedonian.

 But the era is called Hellenic, because the Hellenic culture was spread.

 In a truly civilization spanning game, it's helpful to pay more attention
 to scientific archaeological and anthropological analysis instead of
 partisan bickering that the existence of Catalan is somehow insulting to
 the Spanish


  Creating a 'cultural' group is a great idea - I'd like to introduce it
  in 2.2 where we will have a lot more of this kind of nation in the
  default ruleset.
 
 Good idea.  But I'd add it in addition to the medieval, etc.  After all,
 it's just a group label.



So, last patch (for now) for catalan.ruleset in 2.1.Basically, its the same as the current ruleset, with no translatable strings changed, and:- two more rulers.- removed portuguese from civilwar_nations (they are too far) and added french, which actually makes historical sense (several Catalan cities became French after a war) in the XVII century.
- modified the comment to reflect that it corresponds to lands settled by Catalans, where Catalan is still spoken today. There is also a historical basis (of lands ruled by Catalans) but is not limited to the current definition of Catalonia.
- added a few cities, including some Andorran ones, and removed the Occitan city of Tolosa.About medieval or not, your call. Id leave it, since the Middle Ages is usually considered the time of splendour of the Catalan empire.
Cheers, Joan2008/1/8, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001
 Daniel Markstedt wrote: Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone.Yeah, it was kinda fun spending several hours learning something entirelynew to meThere are a lot of parallels to arguments over Romans and Greeks and Kurds
and Armenians, among others. I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans form while removing it from the medieval group, leaving it simply European.
Investigation showed the Catalans *were* medieval, the cities listed (withone exception) are properly from the medieval areas.The Països Catalansare merely an attempt to reunite the culturally related areas.
(Being of Scottish ancestry, and in communication with Scottish 2nd and 3rdcousins, I understand and sympathize.)The silly idea that the label Crown of ... is more important is confusing
heraldic precedence with reality.The Aragonese princess was a child bride,the dominate dynasty was Catalan, the capital was Catalan.Aragonese culture wasnt the primary culture that was spread, and the
present 

Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-14 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 14, 2008 9:33 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 So, last patch (for now) for catalan.ruleset in 2.1.

 Basically, it's the same as the current ruleset, with no translatable
 strings changed, and:
[...]

It's almost perfect. You forgot to add  (ocean) to both Guardamar cities. :-)


-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-14 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

This transaction appears to have no content
You're right. There you go.

Joan

2008/1/15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 On Jan 14, 2008 9:33 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  So, last patch (for now) for catalan.ruleset in 2.1.
 
  Basically, it's the same as the current ruleset, with no translatable
  strings changed, and:
 [...]

 It's almost perfect. You forgot to add  (ocean) to both Guardamar
 cities. :-)


 --
 Miguel Farah
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Youre right. There you go.Joan2008/1/15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:URL: 
http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 14, 2008 9:33 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, last patch (for now) for catalan.ruleset
 in 2.1. Basically, its the same as the current ruleset, with no translatable strings changed, and:[...]Its almost perfect. You forgot to add  (ocean) to both Guardamar cities. :-)
--Miguel Farah[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Index: catalan.ruleset
===
--- catalan.ruleset	(revision 14236)
+++ catalan.ruleset	(working copy)
@@ -10,10 +10,12 @@
  Ramon Berenguer IV,
  Jaume I,
  Pere II,
- Lluis Companys,
+ Pau Claris,
+ Francesc Macià,
+ Lluís Companys,
  Josep Tarradellas
 leader_sex=Male, Male, Male, Male,
-   Male, Male
+   Male, Male, Male, Male
 flag=catalan
 flag_alt = -
 city_style = Classical
@@ -31,28 +33,120 @@
 
 init_government=Despotism
 init_units=
-civilwar_nations = spanish, portuguese
+civilwar_nations = spanish, french
 
 ; This city list does not actually correspond to medieval Catalonia,
-; but rather to the Països Catalans of modern ethnolinguistic
+; but rather to all lands settled by Catalans, where Catalan is still spoken
+; nowadays. It corresponds to the Països Catalans of modern ethnolinguistic
 ; nationalists.
 cities =
-  Barcelona, Tarragona, Lleida, Girona, Perpinyà, Valencia,
-  Tolosa, Ripoll, Vic, La Seu d'Urgell, Cardona, Tortosa,
-  Montserrat (hills), Poblet, Santes Creus,
-  Vallbona de les Monges, Balaguer, Manresa, Terrassa,
-  Sabadell, Palma de Mallorca, Eivissa, Alacant, Elx,
-  Castelló de la Plana, Montblanc (hills), Igualada, Cervera,
-  Berga, Dénia, Reus, Granollers, Mataró, Figueres, Olot,
-  Badalona, Tàrrega, Amposta, El Bruc, Valls,
-  Vilafranca del Penedés, Manacor, Alcúdia, Sóller, Artà,
-  Llucmajor, Felanitx, Andratx, Ciutadella, Penyiscola,
-  Sitges, Vilanova i la Geltrú, Viella, L'Alguer, Perelló,
-  Torelló, Sant Cugat, Portbou (ocean), Palafrugell, Manlleu,
-  Sallent, Puigcerdà, Bellver, Sant Boi de Llobregat,
-  Vandellós, Cornellà, Tremp, Palamós, El Vendrell,
-  Sant Feliu de Guíxols, Sant Celoni, Martorell, L'Hospitalet,
-  Mollet del Vallès, Banyoles, Blanes, Lloret de mar (ocean),
-  Malgrat de mar (ocean), Canet de mar (ocean), Molins de Rei,
-  Pons, Súria, Llívia, La Bisbal d'Empurdà, Prada, Elna,
-  Ceret, Cadaqués, Begur, Olesa de Montserrat (hills)
+ Barcelona,
+ Tarragona,
+ Lleida,
+ Girona,
+ Perpinyà,
+ València,
+ Ripoll,
+ Vic,
+ La Seu d'Urgell,
+ Cardona,
+ Tortosa,
+ Montserrat (hills),
+ Poblet,
+ Santes Creus,
+ Vallbona de les Monges,
+ Balaguer,
+ Manresa,
+ Terrassa,
+ Sabadell,
+ Palma de Mallorca,
+ Eivissa,
+ Alacant,
+ Elx,
+ Maó,
+ Castelló de la Plana,
+ Montblanc (hills),
+ Igualada,
+ Cervera,
+ Berga,
+ Dénia,
+ Alcoi,
+ Reus,
+ Granollers,
+ Salses,
+ Mataró,
+ Figueres,
+ Xàtiva,
+ Olot,
+ Cadaqués,
+ Badalona,
+ Tàrrega,
+ Amposta,
+ El Bruc,
+ Valls,
+ Sant Fruitós de Bages,
+ Vilafranca del Penedès,
+ Manacor,
+ Alcúdia,
+ Sóller,
+ Guardamar del Segura (ocean),
+ Artà,
+ Llucmajor,
+ Felanitx,
+ Andratx,
+ Andorra la Vella,
+ Ciutadella,
+ Peníscola (hills, ocean),
+ Sant Salvador de Guardiola,
+ Fraga,
+ Almacelles,
+ Sitges,
+ Vilanova i la Geltrú,
+ Vielha,
+ L'Alguer,
+ El Perelló,
+ Torelló,
+ Sant Cugat,
+ Portbou (ocean),
+ Palafrugell,
+ Prada,
+ Manlleu,
+ Sallent,
+ Puigcerdà,
+ Bellver,
+ Sant Boi de Llobregat,
+ Vandellòs,
+ Cornellà,
+ Tremp,
+ Palamós,
+ El Vendrell,
+ Sant Feliu de Guíxols,
+ Sant Celoni,
+ Martorell,
+ L'Hospitalet,
+ Mollet del Vallès,
+ Banyoles,
+ Blanes,
+ Sant Julià de Lòria,
+ Lloret de mar (ocean),
+ Malgrat de mar (ocean),
+ Canet de mar (ocean),
+ Molins de Rei,
+ Ponts,
+ Encamp,
+ Súria,
+ Llívia,
+ La Bisbal d'Empordà,
+ Elna,
+ Ceret,
+ Roses,
+ Calonge,
+ Treumal,
+ Cambrils,
+ Tossa de Mar (ocean),
+ Solsona,
+ Agramunt,
+ Begur,
+ Guardamar de la Safor (ocean),
+ Olesa de Montserrat (hills),
+ Soldeu
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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-09 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 6, 2008 1:17 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 We basically agree. I think the key here is the definition of medieval and
 catalan. As I understand, medieval in Freeciv is used for a nation that
 existed at some time, but isn't independent nowadays. Since there isn't a
 cultural category (after all, culture and language is what all these
 cities have in common), medieval is the closest we have.

  And, indeed, during the Middle Ages these cities formed a nation (at least
 culturally, and, to some degree, also politically). Sure, there are a few
 cities in the ruleset that are not Catalan, but the King of the Crown of
 Aragon, who happened to live in Barcelona, ruled them. And the language
 spoken there is Catalan or some variant of it (I don't like the word
 dialect because it implies some hierarchy among different variants)


Er... that's kinda the point of contention: what exactly does catalan.ruleset
represent? The Counties/Principality/Region/Autonomy of Catalonia, the
crown of Aragon, or the Països Catalans?

It's an important question to determine, because the ruleset name and
the first few definition point towards the first, the medieval moniker
points to the second, and the city list (as currently exists) points to
the third, explicitly so.

The city list would be pretty useful for a ruleset for the Crown of
Aragon, provided that cities from Aragon (Kingdom/Region/Autonomy)
are added (Huesca, Zaragoza, Teruel, Sos, Jaca, etcétera).


BTW, I had an idea that might be good or might be utter crap. Joan
rightly states that grouping the current catalan ruleset as fictional,
as I proposed, is too drastic. So, how about creating a new category,
political or something like that, for rulesets that describe
non-independent countries that some people/parties want to create?
Països Catalans would be a natural fit for this, as would be a kurdistan
ruleset.


-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-09 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 6, 2008 2:27 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 
 Right, let's forget about present-day politics or the whole thing will get
 really complicated. History is what it is. Let's leave it like that.

 If everybody agrees, I'll add a couple Andorran cities to the ruleset. That
 was a good idea.

Did you see my proposed Andorran city list?

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-09 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 6, 2008 1:44 PM, William Allen Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I understand. But... if we were to keep catalan.ruleset as medieval,
  it would necessarily refer to the Principality of Catalonia, so the only
  cities it could contain would be the ones from Catalonia proper,
  Catalonia Nord and perhaps the Franja Ponent (see my previous post).

 (heavy sigh) No, apparently you don't understand.  We don't distinguish
 between the Roman Republic and Empire, in our current rulesets.

Yeah, I understand. The point is that the current catalan.ruleset contains
cities that are not catalan (as in part of Catalunya) and have never been
so (cities from the Kingdom/Region/Autonomy of Valencia, etc.). They're
there because they would form part of the Països Catalans that some
catalan nationalists advocate.


[...]
 Apparently, Valencians, Majorcans, Andorrans et alia became Catalan.  And

Not exactly. Catalans resettled Valencia and the Balearic Islands. So it's
more like catalans became valencians and majorcans.

 still speak something recognizably Catalan many hundreds of years later.
 Not even the Roman Empire can claim that!

 Those cities belong.

Not really... the disctintion between Catalonia and the concept of
Països Catalans
needs to be made.

-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-09 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 6, 2008 8:04 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 I have also noticed that one of the cities in the catalan list is not really
 Catalan. Tolosa (Toulouse, in its French name) was Occitan. Occitans and
 Catalans were traditional allies, and there were lots of ties between the
 two nations, but they never had the same ruler. In fact, Vielha is another
 city of Occitan culture, but it has been administratively Catalan for
 centuries, and now Catalan, Spanish and Occitan are spoken there. So, Vielha
 stays.

I concur.


 By the way, Occitania is another nation worth including in Freeciv: full of
 legends about the Holy Grail; where troubadours flourished and spread the
 Occitan poems all over Europe, ...

How this never occured to me, I'll never understand. Joan, you're
brighter than me.

Let's work on it! When we're done, I'll make a campaign playing Occitania and
Catalunya against the evil French! :-D

-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-09 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 8, 2008 7:42 AM, Daniel Markstedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone.

 I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans
 form while removing it from the 'medieval' group, leaving it simply
 European.

 Creating a 'cultural' group is a great idea - I'd like to introduce it
 in 2.2 where we will have a lot more of this kind of nation in the
 default ruleset.

I concur. Your cultural group name is better than my political idea.

-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-08 Thread Daniel Markstedt

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone.

I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans
form while removing it from the 'medieval' group, leaving it simply
European.

Creating a 'cultural' group is a great idea - I'd like to introduce it
in 2.2 where we will have a lot more of this kind of nation in the
default ruleset.

Will be happy to review any new nations threwn in my direction. :)

Best,
 ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-08 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone.
 
Yeah, it was kinda fun spending several hours learning something entirely
new to me

There are a lot of parallels to arguments over Romans and Greeks and Kurds
and Armenians, among others.


 I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans
 form while removing it from the 'medieval' group, leaving it simply
 European.
 
Investigation showed the Catalans *were* medieval, the cities listed (with
one exception) are properly from the medieval areas.  The Països Catalans
are merely an attempt to reunite the culturally related areas.

(Being of Scottish ancestry, and in communication with Scottish 2nd and 3rd
cousins, I understand and sympathize.)

The silly idea that the label Crown of ... is more important is confusing
heraldic precedence with reality.  The Aragonese princess was a child bride,
the dominate dynasty was Catalan, the capital was Catalan.

Aragonese culture wasn't the primary culture that was spread, and the
present language distribution demonstrates the reality

We've seen this before with Greeks.  Alexander the Great wasn't Greek
(unless you subscribe to the theory that all French and Spanish are
actually Italian because the language root is the same).  He *conquered*
the Greeks.  The Empire was officially Macedonian.

But the era is called Hellenic, because the Hellenic culture was spread.

In a truly civilization spanning game, it's helpful to pay more attention
to scientific archaeological and anthropological analysis instead of
partisan bickering that the existence of Catalan is somehow insulting to
the Spanish


 Creating a 'cultural' group is a great idea - I'd like to introduce it
 in 2.2 where we will have a lot more of this kind of nation in the
 default ruleset.
 
Good idea.  But I'd add it in addition to the medieval, etc.  After all,
it's just a group label.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-08 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

And from the point of view of someone who actually has to put up with
this kind of historical distortions on a regular basis, it's
refreshing to see that dispassionate persons with the will to
understand facts can see through all the troll's propaganda.

Miguel's excellent summary of Iberian history should be taught in all
schools. From that solid base, we may have had slight disagreements on
Freeciv concepts and rules, but the discussion was honest and
intelligent. You made my day.

Joan


On 1/8/08, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 Daniel Markstedt wrote:
  Very enlightening discussion. Thanks everyone.
 
 Yeah, it was kinda fun spending several hours learning something entirely
 new to me

 There are a lot of parallels to arguments over Romans and Greeks and Kurds
 and Armenians, among others.


  I propose keeping the Catalan nation in its current Països Catalans
  form while removing it from the 'medieval' group, leaving it simply
  European.
 
 Investigation showed the Catalans *were* medieval, the cities listed (with
 one exception) are properly from the medieval areas.  The Països Catalans
 are merely an attempt to reunite the culturally related areas.

 (Being of Scottish ancestry, and in communication with Scottish 2nd and 3rd
 cousins, I understand and sympathize.)

 The silly idea that the label Crown of ... is more important is confusing
 heraldic precedence with reality.  The Aragonese princess was a child bride,
 the dominate dynasty was Catalan, the capital was Catalan.

 Aragonese culture wasn't the primary culture that was spread, and the
 present language distribution demonstrates the reality

 We've seen this before with Greeks.  Alexander the Great wasn't Greek
 (unless you subscribe to the theory that all French and Spanish are
 actually Italian because the language root is the same).  He *conquered*
 the Greeks.  The Empire was officially Macedonian.

 But the era is called Hellenic, because the Hellenic culture was spread.

 In a truly civilization spanning game, it's helpful to pay more attention
 to scientific archaeological and anthropological analysis instead of
 partisan bickering that the existence of Catalan is somehow insulting to
 the Spanish


  Creating a 'cultural' group is a great idea - I'd like to introduce it
  in 2.2 where we will have a lot more of this kind of nation in the
  default ruleset.
 
 Good idea.  But I'd add it in addition to the medieval, etc.  After all,
 it's just a group label.






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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 5, 2008 10:21 PM, Daniel Markstedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 While we're on the topic, I'd like to discuss this:
 http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=4216

 The poster is mainly trolling, but he brings up the legit question of
 whether the Catalonia described in our ruleset existed in the middle
 ages or not. From Freeciv's nations policy: a nation listed as
 ancient or medieval should have
 had an independent dynasty or state in ancient or medieval times
 respectively (
 http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/freeciv/trunk/doc/README.nations?rev=14172view=auto
 )

 I'm not well versed in Iberian history, so please educate me on the issue. :)


Indeed, Daniel, the poster is mostly trolling (if he dislikes so much
the ruleset, he could simply erase that file from his installation and
be done with it, instead of uninstalling the whole game).

He's confusing several key points in the history he mentions to
downplay Catalonia.

Quick recap of Iberian history from 711 onwards:

The Visigoth kingdom is overrun by the muslim invaders, who decided the
Iberian Peninsula is a great place to live. Many locals actually join
them, preferring them over the visigoth ruling class.

Years later, the extreme north, not fully conquered, sees the formation
of the first christian kingdom (in the west side): Asturias, which
begins the process of reconquering the peninsula. Asturias begat Galicia
and León, which begat Portugal and Castilla. As the centuries move
forward, Castilla becomes the dominant kingdom and absorbs all except
for Portugal.


On the east side, the Carolingian Empire created the Spanish March to
contain the muslims. Over time, this March developed into several
independent kingdoms and counties. Aragon was one of those kingdoms,
which grew by absorbing other smaller fiefs (Ribagorza, Sobrarbe, etc.)
and to the south, retaking muslim lands. What today is called Catalonia
began as a series of independent counties (Ausona, Gerona, Besalú,
Conflent, Barcelona, etc.) which ended up united under the rule of the
Count of Barcelona.

Later, a dynastic union joined the Counties of Catalonia (by now
Principality of Catalonia) and the Kingdom of Aragon, forming the CROWN
of Aragon, which expanded southwards, conquering and creating the
Kingdom of Valencia and the Kingdom of Majorca (taken from the muslims),
and eastwards, taking Sicily, Naples and Sardinia (and others).

The KINGDOM of Aragon was a single realm within the CROWN of Aragon. The
capital city of the crown was Barcelona. The Crown was joined in 1479 in
a PERSONAL union with the Crown of Castilla. Only later the separate
Crowns were fused together into a single Crown (the crown of Spain).

It's important to note that the Crown, as the maritime empire it was,
was only loosely connected between its different realms - it worked more
like a confederacy of kingdoms.


Now, for some specific claims of the troll:

- Catalonia wasn't a province of Aragon (the kingdom) - it was an
independent realm within the Crown.

- Jaume is the catalan form of Jaime (James), so for catalan
speakers Rei [King] Jaume I is correct.

- Ramon Berenguer IV was the Count of Barcelona who, by marriage to
Petronila, son of the King of Aragon, became the first King of the Crown
of Aragon [1] - but he was catalan first and foremost.

- Both Peter/Pedro/Pere II [2] and James/Jaime/Jaume I were kings of the
Crown of Aragon, so they qualify as Counts of Barcelona as well.


[1] Actually, he was just prince - I'm simplifying a bit here.
[2] Pere II refers to Peter III of Aragon (known as Peter II of Barcelona),
who conquered Sicily.

All that said, there is one point that the guy does have, even if he's a
bit confused.

The current catalan.ruleset does NOT represent the medieval counties of
Catalonia or the Crown of Aragon. Instead, it represents the Països
Catalans, a non-existing nation that some catalans want to create,
seceding from Spain, and taking all the areas that are catalan-speaking:
Catalonia, Valencia (either most or all of it), a strip of the current
Aragon autonomy, the Balearic islands, the strip of Catalonia dominated
by France (almost all of the Pyrénées-Orientales department), Andorra
and the Sardinian city of Alghero.

So, he is right in stating that this is NOT a medieval nation (a ruleset
for the Crown of Aragon would be). Instead, it should be marked as
fictional or, at most, modern.

Oh, and let's remove the portuguese nation from civilwar_nations while
we're at it.


Some references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C3%AFsos_Catalans


-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Daniel Markstedt wrote:
 ... the legit question of
 whether the Catalonia described in our ruleset existed in the middle
 ages or not. ...
 
The exact boundaries and title changed from time to time.  This article has
been around for a couple of years, and survived a couple of edit wars:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia

Apparently, it didn't merge with Aragon until 1137 CE, the result of
wedding a two-year-old princess.  That tells us there were separate
dynasties, meeting our criteria.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Statute_of_Autonomy

In September 2005, the Parliament of Catalonia approved the definition of
Catalonia as a nation in the preamble of the new Statute of Autonomy,
approved in referendum on June 18, 2006.  This meets our other criteria.

On this side of the pond, the idea that Freeciv (spanning all of history)
should reflect historically tiny adjustments of boundaries and titles
(lasting about 2 game turns) is fairly amusing.  There is no question that
the region, language, and culture called (in English) Catalan existed for
many centuries (and still exists).

I agree with your reply:

   If you miss the Castellans and Aragonese in Freeciv, feel free to write
   the nationsets and draw the flags and submit to the issue tracking system.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Trolling indeed, and it's not strange for Spanish radical nationalists to
deny Catalonia's nationhood. Having its own dinasty and laws for hundreds of
years, and speaking a different language even today doesn't seem to be
enough.

In fact, the wikipedia article he quotes is quite enlightening. Countries,
in the Middle Ages, were not what we think of nowadays. With poor
communications and a weak central power, nations (as we think of them now)
were just being built. The frontiers we see in the maps are mostly what
certain dinasties ruled. It was common for a king to rule over different
nations.

What he calls the Crown of Aragon was a real thing. It started when Ramiro
II, King of Aragon, who had no male son and wanted to retire, agreed with
Ramon Berenguer IV (of Freeciv fame) to give him the hand of his
one-year-old daughter (wow!) and his kingdom. From then on, Ramon
Berenguer's Dinasty were kings of Aragon and Counts of Barcelona. The kings
lived mainly in Barcelona and Montblanc (both Catalan cities), and they had
to respect the laws of both Aragon and Catalonia. The Aragonese people
didn't speak Catalan, so they probably translated the king's name into their
language (as is their prerrogative).

When the empire expanded (notably into the Balearic Islands and the Kingdom
of Valencia), the new lands were settled by Catalan-speaking people. The
internal organization of the kingdom was confederacy-like. Majorca,
Valencia, Aragon and Catalonia were considered separate kingdoms under the
same Crown. The wikipedia states that it was a Maritime Empire, so it's
easy to guess that the weight of the empire was not in landlocked Aragon,
although it bore its name.

As for the names of the kings, Jaume I (who is in the ruleset), and who, by
the way, would celebrate his 800th birthday this year, wrote his
autobiography. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llibre_dels_fets As you can
see in the wikipedia, it is written in Catalan, and the name is Jacme (which
is ancient Catalan for James).

So, the ruleset (in its original form, I haven't made any significant
changes to it) tries to reflect a very real (and powerful) medieval nation.
After the dynastic union with Castille in 1479, the four kingdoms kept their
own laws and institutions, and it wasn't until the XVIII century and the
Spanish succession war that these laws and institutions were revoked. In
fact, the Wikipedia
listshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_formation_dates1714
as the date of birth of Spain.

So, what does the ruleset mean, historically?: the part of the Crown of
Aragon settled by Catalan-speaking people (the three maritime kingdoms:
Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands), who have thus the same
cultural background. If we added Aragonese cities (and cities like Naples,
Athens, and so on), we could have a perfectly valid Crown of Aragon
ruleset, that would reflect the possessions of these kings (who, again, were
based in Catalonia). Nothing against that.

The present ruleset reflects a territory with a similar culture and
language. As for territorial claims, this is quite another story. The desire
for independence from Spain exists in very different degrees in each of the
territories, so it's not likely that this ruleset will become modern
without any changes.

Cheers,

  Joan

2008/1/6, Daniel Markstedt [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 While we're on the topic, I'd like to discuss this:
 http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=4216

 The poster is mainly trolling, but he brings up the legit question of
 whether the Catalonia described in our ruleset existed in the middle
 ages or not. From Freeciv's nations policy: a nation listed as
 ancient or medieval should have
 had an independent dynasty or state in ancient or medieval times
 respectively (

 http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/freeciv/trunk/doc/README.nations?rev=14172view=auto
 )

 I'm not well versed in Iberian history, so please educate me on the issue.
 :)

 ~Daniel




Trolling indeed, and its not strange for Spanish radical nationalists to deny Catalonias nationhood. Having its own dinasty and laws for hundreds of years, and speaking a different language even today doesnt seem to be enough.
In fact, the wikipedia article he quotes is quite enlightening. Countries, in the Middle Ages, were not what we think of nowadays. With poor communications and a weak central power, nations (as we think of them now) were just being built. The frontiers we see in the maps are mostly what certain dinasties ruled. It was common for a king to rule over different nations.
What he calls the Crown of Aragon was a real thing. It started when Ramiro II, King of Aragon, who had no male son and wanted to retire, agreed with Ramon Berenguer IV (of Freeciv fame) to give him the hand of his one-year-old daughter (wow!) and his kingdom. From then on, Ramon Berenguers 

Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Our replies crossed paths.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The current catalan.ruleset does NOT represent the medieval counties of
 Catalonia or the Crown of Aragon. Instead, it represents the Països
 Catalans, a non-existing nation that some catalans want to create,
 seceding from Spain, and taking all the areas that are catalan-speaking:
 Catalonia, Valencia (either most or all of it), a strip of the current
 Aragon autonomy, the Balearic islands, the strip of Catalonia dominated
 by France (almost all of the Pyrénées-Orientales department), Andorra
 and the Sardinian city of Alghero.
 
According to the self determination of the populace, an _existing_ nation.
And the ruleset specifically states the city list is modern.


 So, he is right in stating that this is NOT a medieval nation (a ruleset
 for the Crown of Aragon would be). Instead, it should be marked as
 fictional or, at most, modern.
 
You mean the Principality of Catalonia, the Crown of Aragon was later.

Actually, having cities from different eras in more than one nation is
fairly typical in our rulesets.

English are listed as Medieval, and British as Modern, but there's lots of
current cities in both.  And a fair number are actually Scottish

Greeks are listed as Ancient, and Hellenic as Modern, but there's lots of
current cities in both.  And a fair number are actually Macedonian



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Yeah, but the city list in the ruleset DOES contain cities
that have never been part of the Principality of Catalonia, or
the Region of Catalonia or the current Autonomy. There's even
a comment stating:

; This city list does not actually correspond to medieval Catalonia,
; but rather to the Països Catalans of modern ethnolinguistic
; nationalists.


So, what do we do?

Option 1: restrict the ruleset to Catalonia itself - cities like Alacant,
Elx, Palma de Mallorca, L'Alguer, et cetera, should be removed.

Option 2: accept outright that the ruleset corresponds to the
Països Catalans option. The only change needed would be replace
medieval with fictional. Let's not forget that there aren't any
aragonese NON-catalan-speaking cities in the list.

Option 3: create an aragonese ruleset for the CROWN of Aragon.

Options 2 and 3 are compatible, and -if it were for me-, I'd implement
both.


On Jan 6, 2008 11:22 AM, William Allen Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 Our replies crossed paths.

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The current catalan.ruleset does NOT represent the medieval counties of
  Catalonia or the Crown of Aragon. Instead, it represents the Països
  Catalans, a non-existing nation that some catalans want to create,
  seceding from Spain, and taking all the areas that are catalan-speaking:
  Catalonia, Valencia (either most or all of it), a strip of the current
  Aragon autonomy, the Balearic islands, the strip of Catalonia dominated
  by France (almost all of the Pyrénées-Orientales department), Andorra
  and the Sardinian city of Alghero.
 
 According to the self determination of the populace, an _existing_ nation.
 And the ruleset specifically states the city list is modern.


  So, he is right in stating that this is NOT a medieval nation (a ruleset
  for the Crown of Aragon would be). Instead, it should be marked as
  fictional or, at most, modern.
 
 You mean the Principality of Catalonia, the Crown of Aragon was later.

 Actually, having cities from different eras in more than one nation is
 fairly typical in our rulesets.

 English are listed as Medieval, and British as Modern, but there's lots of
 current cities in both.  And a fair number are actually Scottish

 Greeks are listed as Ancient, and Hellenic as Modern, but there's lots of
 current cities in both.  And a fair number are actually Macedonian




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-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Joan Creus wrote:
 So, what does the ruleset mean, historically?: the part of the Crown of
 Aragon settled by Catalan-speaking people (the three maritime kingdoms:
 Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands), who have thus the same
 cultural background. If we added Aragonese cities (and cities like Naples,
 Athens, and so on), we could have a perfectly valid Crown of Aragon
 ruleset, that would reflect the possessions of these kings (who, again, were
 based in Catalonia). Nothing against that.
 
The Crown of a Aragon was more of a loose empire than a nation.  I'm against
that for the same reason that we don't include all of Greece, Persia, Egypt,
etc. in the Romans.  And wouldn't include all of Greece, Persia, Egypt, etc.
in Macedonian (even though Philip of Macedon conquered them all).  And we
shouldn't include Baghdad in American, either :-)

If somebody puts together Aragonese and Castellan, let's keep them to the
actual Aragonese and Castellan cultural areas.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

William Allen Simpson wrote:
 Which ones?  Do they speak Catalan?  How did they end up speaking
 Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?  Autonomous colonies?
 
To clarify my question, our current rule is:

   An _ancient_ or _medieval_ nation may list any city that it at some
   point controlled.

For the purposes of this ticket, I opine that it is OK for historically
Catalan-speaking cities to be included, as former Catalan colonies,
whether founded under the Principality or a larger Empire (Crown).

We don't distinguish the Roman Republic from the Empire.  These are
cultural and political identity, as opposed to indigenous population or
nation.  Heck, it's hard to show that there was a Greek nation!
They were city-states.

For example, our Greek ruleset includes some cities that were actually
very distant colonies.  Likewise, our Roman ruleset (such as Londinium).

The same cities are included in other rulesets, such as Illyrian or
English or British, sometimes with different derivations of the name.

The same cities appear in multiple rulesets: for example, Edinburgh in
both British and Scottish.

The code prevents the identical city appearing twice.  A couple of years
ago, I'd suggested automatically checking/converting the name between
different variants as different nations build/conquer, but that hasn't
made it into the code yet.

For some odd reason, neither British nor English include colonies such as
Boston or Philadelphia  But under our current rules, they could!



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 6, 2008 11:53 AM, William Allen Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Yeah, but the city list in the ruleset DOES contain cities
  that have never been part of the Principality of Catalonia, or
  the Region of Catalonia or the current Autonomy.

 Which ones?  Do they speak Catalan?  How did they end up speaking
 Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?  Autonomous colonies?

All the cities in the current catalan.ruleset are catalan-speaking.

There are cities from Catalonia proper: Barcelona, Girona, Tarragona, Vic,
Granollers, etc.

There are cities from Valencia (Valencia, Alacant, Elx, etc.) and the Balearic
Islands (Palma de Majorca, Eivissa, etc.). After those regions/kingdoms/etc.
were reconquered from the muslim, they were repopulated with catalans, who
brought their language with them.

There are cities from the Franja Ponent (Fraga, etc.), a small strip from
present-day Aragon that speaks catalan. Besides, the frontier between the
principality and the Kingdom moved in historical times - Fraga used to be
catalan, for example.

There are cities from Catalunya Nord (Perpinyá, etc.) the area of Catalonia
taken by the french in 1659 that is still rightfully claimed to be a part of
Catalonia proper.

And then's the Sardinian city of Alghero (L'Alguer), which was resettled in
the 14th century by catalans.

Finally, Andorra (a catalan speaking country), doesn't have any cities
represented in the ruleset (Andorra la Vella, Sant Julià de Lòria, Encamp
and Soldeu could be added).

According to catalan nationalists, in order for a city or county or whatever
to be a part of the Països Catalans, it must be a catalan-speaking area.

-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 6, 2008 12:47 PM, William Allen Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 William Allen Simpson wrote:
  Which ones?  Do they speak Catalan?  How did they end up speaking
  Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?  Autonomous colonies?
 
 To clarify my question, our current rule is:

An _ancient_ or _medieval_ nation may list any city that it at some
point controlled.

 For the purposes of this ticket, I opine that it is OK for historically
 Catalan-speaking cities to be included, as former Catalan colonies,
 whether founded under the Principality or a larger Empire (Crown).

I understand. But... if we were to keep catalan.ruleset as medieval,
it would necessarily refer to the Principality of Catalonia, so the only
cities it could contain would be the ones from Catalonia proper,
Catalonia Nord and perhaps the Franja Ponent (see my previous post).
Valencia and Majorca were never part of the principality, nor were
colonies in the strict sense, so they can't be included if this is the
criteria to be used (nor Andorra, an independent entity).

-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

2008/1/6, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Yeah, but the city list in the ruleset DOES contain cities
  that have never been part of the Principality of Catalonia, or
  the Region of Catalonia or the current Autonomy.

 Which ones?  Do they speak Catalan?  How did they end up speaking
 Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?  Autonomous colonies?


You might call it like that. There is an ambiguity here. Catalans settled
the kingdoms of Valencia and the Balearic Islands, so people there ended up
speaking Catalan. However, they were considered different territories
(although, they had the same king).

 Option 3: create an aragonese ruleset for the CROWN of Aragon.
 
 I'm against this for the reasons stated in my previous message.

 An Aragonese ruleset for the landlocked kingdom might be OK.


A Crown of Aragon ruleset would be politically accurate. I'm not against it
being created, although I wouldn't do it. It shouldn't replace
catalan.ruleset, of course. They are different things.

As for the Catalan ruleset, I would leave it like it is. I don't like any of
Miguel's options: restricting to just cities inside present-day Catalonia
cripples a pretty cool ruleset, and forgets a rich history of Mediterranean
expansion. If Catalonia alone becomes independent in the future, this will
be a must for the nation to be considered modern. In the meantime, there
is no reason for it. As William says, the English ruleset could perfectly
have Boston, Philadelphia (and even Bombay). The cities listed have all been
at some time ruled by a king who spoke Catalan.

As for changing the classification to fictional, I think that it is too
drastic. Fictional is for literary, joke or impossible nations: like
martians, antarctic penguins, or the old Middle-Earth nations. Political
questions aside, there are strong cultural ties between this list of cities.
Heck, there is even an Internet top level domain (.cat) for sites related to
Catalan culture, and it's used in Catalonia, València, Majorca, Southern
France (AKA Northern Catalonia), ... And there are a few people who think
all these territories should become an independent state.

Cheers,

Joan

2008/1/6, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Yeah, but the city list in the ruleset DOES contain cities that have never been part of the Principality of Catalonia, or the Region of Catalonia or the current Autonomy.Which ones?Do they speak Catalan?How did they end up speaking
Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?Autonomous colonies?You might call it like that. There is an ambiguity here. Catalans settled the kingdoms of Valencia and the Balearic Islands, so people there ended up speaking Catalan. However, they were considered different territories (although, they had the same king).
 Option 3: create an aragonese ruleset for the CROWN of Aragon.
Im against this for the reasons stated in my previous message.An Aragonese ruleset for the landlocked kingdom might be OK.A Crown of Aragon ruleset would be politically accurate. Im not against it being created, although I wouldnt do it. It shouldnt replace 
catalan.ruleset, of course. They are different things.As for the Catalan ruleset, I would leave it like it is. I dont like any of Miguels options: restricting to just cities inside present-day Catalonia cripples a pretty cool ruleset, and forgets a rich history of Mediterranean expansion. If Catalonia alone becomes independent in the future, this will be a must for the nation to be considered modern. In the meantime, there is no reason for it. As William says, the English ruleset could perfectly have Boston, Philadelphia (and even Bombay). The cities listed have all been at some time ruled by a king who spoke Catalan.
As for changing the classification to fictional, I think that it is too drastic. Fictional is for literary, joke or impossible nations: like martians, antarctic penguins, or the old Middle-Earth nations. Political questions aside, there are strong cultural ties between this list of cities. Heck, there is even an Internet top level domain (.cat) for sites related to Catalan culture, and its used in Catalonia, València, Majorca, Southern France (AKA Northern Catalonia), ... And there are a few people who think all these territories should become an independent state.
Cheers,Joan
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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And then's the Sardinian city of Alghero (L'Alguer), which was resettled in
 the 14th century by catalans.
 
Cool.  Try what I did for Illyrian, adding dates and alternative names:

   Scodra (hills, plains, river, !ocean), ;-400 42:04N 19:30E
   ; |Scutari|Shkodra|Shkoder

(If I were doing it today, I'd make that 3 lines instead, for readability.)


 Finally, Andorra (a catalan speaking country), doesn't have any cities
 represented in the ruleset (Andorra la Vella, Sant Julià de Lòria, Encamp
 and Soldeu could be added).
 
Under our rules, sounds like they should!  They must have been controlled
or colonized by Catalans in the past.  As mentioned earlier, it's OK for
the same city to be in multiple nations.  Dates of founding and alternative
names would be good here, too.

If somebody adds Andorran, can have it as a civil-war nation for Catalan.


 According to catalan nationalists, in order for a city or county or whatever
 to be a part of the Països Catalans, it must be a catalan-speaking area.
 
Well, this isn't a political organization.  We're more interested in using
historical information to make the game itself interesting!  We should
include formerly catalan-speaking areas, too, not only modern ones



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

We basically agree. I think the key here is the definition of medieval and
catalan. As I understand, medieval in Freeciv is used for a nation that
existed at some time, but isn't independent nowadays. Since there isn't a
cultural category (after all, culture and language is what all these
cities have in common), medieval is the closest we have.

 And, indeed, during the Middle Ages these cities formed a nation (at least
culturally, and, to some degree, also politically). Sure, there are a few
cities in the ruleset that are not Catalan, but the King of the Crown of
Aragon, who happened to live in Barcelona, ruled them. And the language
spoken there is Catalan or some variant of it (I don't like the word
dialect because it implies some hierarchy among different variants)

Joan

2008/1/6, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 On Jan 6, 2008 12:47 PM, William Allen Simpson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 
 
  William Allen Simpson wrote:
   Which ones?  Do they speak Catalan?  How did they end up speaking
   Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?  Autonomous colonies?
  
  To clarify my question, our current rule is:
 
 An _ancient_ or _medieval_ nation may list any city that it at some
 point controlled.
 
  For the purposes of this ticket, I opine that it is OK for historically
  Catalan-speaking cities to be included, as former Catalan colonies,
  whether founded under the Principality or a larger Empire (Crown).

 I understand. But... if we were to keep catalan.ruleset as medieval,
 it would necessarily refer to the Principality of Catalonia, so the only
 cities it could contain would be the ones from Catalonia proper,
 Catalonia Nord and perhaps the Franja Ponent (see my previous post).
 Valencia and Majorca were never part of the principality, nor were
 colonies in the strict sense, so they can't be included if this is the
 criteria to be used (nor Andorra, an independent entity).

 --
 Miguel Farah
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]




We basically agree. I think the key here is the definition of medieval and catalan. As I understand, medieval in Freeciv is used for a nation that existed at some time, but isnt independent nowadays. Since there isnt a cultural category (after all, culture and language is what all these cities have in common), medieval is the closest we have.
And, indeed, during the Middle Ages these cities formed a nation (at least culturally, and, to some degree, also politically). Sure, there are a few cities in the ruleset that are not Catalan, but the King of the Crown of Aragon, who happened to live in Barcelona, ruled them. And the language spoken there is Catalan or some variant of it (I dont like the word dialect because it implies some hierarchy among different variants)
Joan2008/1/6, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 On Jan 6, 2008 12:47 PM, William Allen Simpson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001  William Allen Simpson wrote:
  Which ones?Do they speak Catalan?How did they end up speaking  Catalan without ever being part of Catalonia?Autonomous colonies?  To clarify my question, our current rule is:
An _ancient_ or _medieval_ nation may list any city that it at somepoint controlled. For the purposes of this ticket, I opine that it is OK for historically Catalan-speaking cities to be included, as former Catalan colonies,
 whether founded under the Principality or a larger Empire (Crown).I understand. But... if we were to keep catalan.ruleset as medieval,it would necessarily refer to the Principality of Catalonia, so the only
cities it could contain would be the ones from Catalonia proper,Catalonia Nord and perhaps the Franja Ponent (see my previous post).Valencia and Majorca were never part of the principality, nor werecolonies in the strict sense, so they cant be included if this is the
criteria to be used (nor Andorra, an independent entity).--Miguel Farah[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

2008/1/6, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  And then's the Sardinian city of Alghero (L'Alguer), which was resettled
 in
  the 14th century by catalans.
 
 Cool.  Try what I did for Illyrian, adding dates and alternative names:

Scodra (hills, plains, river, !ocean), ;-400 42:04N 19:30E
; |Scutari|Shkodra|Shkoder

 (If I were doing it today, I'd make that 3 lines instead, for
 readability.)


That looks pretty cool. Is the syntax documented in the wiki?

 Finally, Andorra (a catalan speaking country), doesn't have any cities
  represented in the ruleset (Andorra la Vella, Sant Julià de Lòria,
 Encamp
  and Soldeu could be added).
 
 Under our rules, sounds like they should!  They must have been controlled
 or colonized by Catalans in the past.  As mentioned earlier, it's OK for
 the same city to be in multiple nations.  Dates of founding and
 alternative
 names would be good here, too.

 If somebody adds Andorran, can have it as a civil-war nation for Catalan.


That's fun. There's a joke  that says that, in order to gain independence,
Catalonia should declare war on Andorra, and then surrender. With such
brilliant strategists, it's no wonder we are not independent any more. More
seriously, yes, there is no reason not to have Andorran cities in the
ruleset, although Andorra has always been independent, as far as I know.
They speak Catalan because it's what was spoken in their area, not because
any one conquered or settled them.

An Andorran ruleset would be quite short of cities (Andorra is really
small), but it could be done.

 According to catalan nationalists, in order for a city or county or
 whatever
  to be a part of the Països Catalans, it must be a catalan-speaking area.
 
 Well, this isn't a political organization.  We're more interested in using
 historical information to make the game itself interesting!  We should
 include formerly catalan-speaking areas, too, not only modern ones

 Right, let's forget about present-day politics or the whole thing will get
really complicated. History is what it is. Let's leave it like that.

If everybody agrees, I'll add a couple Andorran cities to the ruleset. That
was a good idea.

Joan

2008/1/6, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And thens the Sardinian city of Alghero (LAlguer), which was resettled in the 14th century by catalans.Cool.Try what I did for Illyrian, adding dates and alternative names: Scodra (hills, plains, river, !ocean), ;-400 42:04N 19:30E
 ; |Scutari|Shkodra|Shkoder(If I were doing it today, Id make that 3 lines instead, for readability.)That looks pretty cool. Is the syntax documented in the wiki?
 Finally, Andorra (a catalan speaking country), doesnt have any cities represented in the ruleset (Andorra la Vella, Sant Julià de Lòria, Encamp and Soldeu could be added).Under our rules, sounds like they should!They must have been controlled
or colonized by Catalans in the past.As mentioned earlier, its OK forthe same city to be in multiple nations.Dates of founding and alternativenames would be good here, too.If somebody adds Andorran, can have it as a civil-war nation for Catalan.
Thats fun. Theres a joke that says that, in order to gain independence, Catalonia should declare war on Andorra, and then surrender. With such brilliant strategists, its no wonder we are not independent any more. More seriously, yes, there is no reason not to have Andorran cities in the ruleset, although Andorra has always been independent, as far as I know. They speak Catalan because its what was spoken in their area, not because any one conquered or settled them.
An Andorran ruleset would be quite short of cities (Andorra is really small), but it could be done.
 According to catalan nationalists, in order for a city or county or whatever to be a part of the Països Catalans, it must be a catalan-speaking area.Well, this isnt a political organization.Were more interested in using
historical information to make the game itself interesting!We shouldinclude formerly catalan-speaking areas, too, not only modern onesRight, lets forget about present-day politics or the whole thing will get really complicated. History is what it is. Lets leave it like that.
If everybody agrees, Ill add a couple Andorran cities to the ruleset. That was a good idea.Joan
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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Joan Creus wrote:
 ... yes, there is no reason not to have Andorran cities in the
 ruleset, although Andorra has always been independent, as far as I know.
 They speak Catalan because it's what was spoken in their area, not because
 any one conquered or settled them.
 
To be honest, on this side of the pond, we only know that Andorra is one of
the few remaining micro-states over there.  But they do seem to have been
both conquered and settled repeatedly (long ago).

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Andorra they speak
Catalan because they were conquered back in 8th century, were ruled by
catalans (the Count of Urgell, Bishop of Urgell, the Lord of Caboet), and
were briefly annexed to the Crown of Aragon twice, in 1396 and 1512.

It's interesting that many of the local toponyms are Iberian-Basque.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-06 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Yes, it's fascinating how Andorrans manage to navigate the balance of power
and remain independent. They have two heads of state (the co-princes): one
still is the Bishop of Urgell, and the other is the President of France
(Nicolas Sarkozy, now), as successor of the kings of France, who succeeded
the Counts of Foix.

They are the largest country in the world whose head of state is a priest
(that may change, though, if Huckabee wins the U.S. presidency B-)).

I'll try to write a ruleset for Andorra.

I have also noticed that one of the cities in the catalan list is not really
Catalan. Tolosa (Toulouse, in its French name) was Occitan. Occitans and
Catalans were traditional allies, and there were lots of ties between the
two nations, but they never had the same ruler. In fact, Vielha is another
city of Occitan culture, but it has been administratively Catalan for
centuries, and now Catalan, Spanish and Occitan are spoken there. So, Vielha
stays.

By the way, Occitania is another nation worth including in Freeciv: full of
legends about the Holy Grail; where troubadours flourished and spread the
Occitan poems all over Europe, ...

BTW, thanks everybody for a great discussion.

Joan

2008/1/6, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 Joan Creus wrote:
  ... yes, there is no reason not to have Andorran cities in the
  ruleset, although Andorra has always been independent, as far as I know.
  They speak Catalan because it's what was spoken in their area, not
 because
  any one conquered or settled them.
 
 To be honest, on this side of the pond, we only know that Andorra is one
 of
 the few remaining micro-states over there.  But they do seem to have been
 both conquered and settled repeatedly (long ago).

 According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Andorra they speak
 Catalan because they were conquered back in 8th century, were ruled by
 catalans (the Count of Urgell, Bishop of Urgell, the Lord of Caboet), and
 were briefly annexed to the Crown of Aragon twice, in 1396 and 1512.

 It's interesting that many of the local toponyms are Iberian-Basque.




Yes, its fascinating how Andorrans manage to navigate the balance of power and remain independent. They have two heads of state (the co-princes): one still is the Bishop of Urgell, and the other is the President of France (Nicolas Sarkozy, now), as successor of the kings of France, who succeeded the Counts of Foix.
They are the largest country in the world whose head of state is a priest (that may change, though, if Huckabee wins the U.S. presidency B-)).Ill try to write a ruleset for Andorra.I have also noticed that one of the cities in the catalan list is not really Catalan. Tolosa (Toulouse, in its French name) was Occitan. Occitans and Catalans were traditional allies, and there were lots of ties between the two nations, but they never had the same ruler. In fact, Vielha is another city of Occitan culture, but it has been administratively Catalan for centuries, and now Catalan, Spanish and Occitan are spoken there. So, Vielha stays.
By the way, Occitania is another nation worth including in Freeciv: full of legends about the Holy Grail; where troubadours flourished and spread the Occitan poems all over Europe, ...BTW, thanks everybody for a great discussion.
Joan2008/1/6, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 Joan Creus wrote: ... yes, there is no reason not to have Andorran cities in the
 ruleset, although Andorra has always been independent, as far as I know. They speak Catalan because its what was spoken in their area, not because any one conquered or settled them.
To be honest, on this side of the pond, we only know that Andorra is one ofthe few remaining micro-states over there.But they do seem to have beenboth conquered and settled repeatedly (long ago).According to 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Andorra they speakCatalan because they were conquered back in 8th century, were ruled bycatalans (the Count of Urgell, Bishop of Urgell, the Lord of Caboet), and
were briefly annexed to the Crown of Aragon twice, in 1396 and 1512.Its interesting that many of the local toponyms are Iberian-Basque.
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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-05 Thread William Allen Simpson

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 ... IIRC, the geographic features (hills,
 ocean, etc.) were supposed to be added when the city name explicitly
 states it, so a city name like Montserrat (meaning Serrated Mount) can
 get the  (hills) designation, but Barcelona can't have  (ocean) even
 if the real-life city is coastal. At least, that's the criteria I used
 back then.
 
I've been using real-life criteria elsewhere, that's OK.  There are very
few cities with geographic features in their names.



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-05 Thread Daniel Markstedt

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On 1/5/08, William Allen Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  ... IIRC, the geographic features (hills,
  ocean, etc.) were supposed to be added when the city name explicitly
  states it, so a city name like Montserrat (meaning Serrated Mount) can
  get the  (hills) designation, but Barcelona can't have  (ocean) even
  if the real-life city is coastal. At least, that's the criteria I used
  back then.
 
 I've been using real-life criteria elsewhere, that's OK.  There are very
 few cities with geographic features in their names.


Some nations have a lot of this kind of city names, though only native
speakers would probably notice. It's a nice touch, still.

I embrace both standards, anyway, as long as either is applied
constantly throughout one nation.

 ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-05 Thread Joan Creus

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

This transaction appears to have no content
You call that being negative? No way! On the contrary, it's great to get
good feedback, particularly from the original author of the ruleset.

Guardamar is Guardamar del Segura, one of the four traditional extreme
points where the Catalan language is spoken (along with Salses, Fraga and
Maó, with permission from l'Alguer). I didn't even know there was a
Guardamar in la Safor, but I will add it.

Sant Fruitós natives never use de Bages to refer to their own town (I
know, I'm one), but you're right, we should have the whole name. I will do
the same with Guardiola (Sant Salvador de Guardiola, actually).

As for the geographical features, I didn't know about this criterion. It
makes sense, though. I didn't feel much comfortable with geographical
indications just for a few cities.

I will add both hills and ocean for Peníscola. Yes, only hills is
justified by the name, but I can't resist having ocean for a place like
that.

So, here you are, version two.

Joan

2008/1/5, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 Thanks, Joan, for improving on the ruleset I worked on quite some time
 ago. Adding Pau Claris, Salses and Fraga were nice touches, I think.

 Now, I hate to be negative, BUT... IIRC, the geographic features (hills,
 ocean, etc.) were supposed to be added when the city name explicitly
 states it, so a city name like Montserrat (meaning Serrated Mount) can
 get the  (hills) designation, but Barcelona can't have  (ocean) even
 if the real-life city is coastal. At least, that's the criteria I used
 back then.

 So, I think the added geographical features added to Amposta, Barcelona,
 Begur, Blanes, Cadaqués, Lleida, Maó (newly added), Palma de Mallorca,
 Tarragona and València have to be removed.

 By the way, the first time around, we forgot to add  (hills) to
 Peníscola (it's name derives from peña, meaning bouldery hill).

 I'd complete the name of newly added Sant Fruitós: Sant Fruitós de
 Bages.

 I'm not sure whether the newly added city name of Guardamar refers to
 Guardamar de la Safor or to Guardamar del Segura. Let's add both! :-) In
 both cases, the  (ocean) designation is warranted, and the latter
 might deserve the  (river) designation as well.



 On Jan 4, 2008 11:29 AM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 
 
  This transaction appears to have no content
 
  The catalan ruleset has a few typos in city names. In the attached
 patch, I
  have fixed them, added a few more cities, and added a couple new (long
 dead)
  rulers for good measure. No translatable string has been changed, for
  inclusion in 2.1.
 
  Thanks,
 
  Joan


 --
 Miguel Farah
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]



You call that being negative? No way! On the contrary, its great to get good feedback, particularly from the original author of the ruleset.Guardamar is Guardamar del Segura, one of the four traditional extreme points where the Catalan language is spoken (along with Salses, Fraga and Maó, with permission from lAlguer). I didnt even know there was a Guardamar in la Safor, but I will add it.
Sant Fruitós natives never use de Bages to refer to their own town (I know, Im one), but youre right, we should have the whole name. I will do the same with Guardiola (Sant Salvador de Guardiola, actually).
As for the geographical features, I didnt know about this criterion. It makes sense, though. I didnt feel much comfortable with geographical indications just for a few cities. I will add both hills and ocean for Peníscola. Yes, only hills is justified by the name, but I cant resist having ocean for a place like that.
So, here you are, version two.Joan2008/1/5, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:URL: 
http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 Thanks, Joan, for improving on the ruleset I worked on quite some timeago. Adding Pau Claris, Salses and Fraga were nice touches, I think.Now, I hate to be negative, BUT... IIRC, the geographic features (hills,
ocean, etc.) were supposed to be added when the city name explicitlystates it, so a city name like Montserrat (meaning Serrated Mount) canget the  (hills) designation, but Barcelona cant have  (ocean) even
if the real-life city is coastal. At least, thats the criteria I usedback then.So, I think the added geographical features added to Amposta, Barcelona,Begur, Blanes, Cadaqués, Lleida, Maó (newly added), Palma de Mallorca,
Tarragona and València have to be removed.By the way, the first time around, we forgot to add  (hills) toPeníscola (its name derives from peña, meaning bouldery hill).
Id complete the name of newly added Sant Fruitós: Sant Fruitós deBages.Im not sure whether the newly added city name of Guardamar refers toGuardamar de la Safor or to Guardamar del Segura. Lets add both! :-) In
both cases, the  (ocean) designation is warranted, and the 

Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-05 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

On Jan 5, 2008 4:38 PM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You call that being negative? No way! On the contrary, it's great to get
 good feedback, particularly from the original author of the ruleset.

Actually, I wasn't the original author - I did a lot of work on it, though.

 Guardamar is Guardamar del Segura, one of the four traditional extreme
 points where the Catalan language is spoken (along with Salses, Fraga and
 Maó, with permission from l'Alguer). I didn't even know there was a
 Guardamar in la Safor, but I will add it.

Cool. You forgot to add  (ocean) to both, though.

[...]
 I will add both hills and ocean for Peníscola. Yes, only hills is
 justified by the name, but I can't resist having ocean for a place like
 that.

You know what? Me neither. Peníscola is a special place. :-)

And, while we're at it, let's add some more cities as well:

Roses
Calonge
Treumal
Cambrils
Tossa de Mar (ocean)
Solsona
Agramunt

What do you think?

-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-05 Thread Daniel Markstedt

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

While we're on the topic, I'd like to discuss this:
http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=4216

The poster is mainly trolling, but he brings up the legit question of
whether the Catalonia described in our ruleset existed in the middle
ages or not. From Freeciv's nations policy: a nation listed as
ancient or medieval should have
had an independent dynasty or state in ancient or medieval times
respectively (
http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/freeciv/trunk/doc/README.nations?rev=14172view=auto
)

I'm not well versed in Iberian history, so please educate me on the issue. :)

 ~Daniel



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Re: [Freeciv-Dev] (PR#40001) Update to catalan.ruleset for 2.1

2008-01-04 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

Thanks, Joan, for improving on the ruleset I worked on quite some time
ago. Adding Pau Claris, Salses and Fraga were nice touches, I think.

Now, I hate to be negative, BUT... IIRC, the geographic features (hills,
ocean, etc.) were supposed to be added when the city name explicitly
states it, so a city name like Montserrat (meaning Serrated Mount) can
get the  (hills) designation, but Barcelona can't have  (ocean) even
if the real-life city is coastal. At least, that's the criteria I used
back then.

So, I think the added geographical features added to Amposta, Barcelona,
Begur, Blanes, Cadaqués, Lleida, Maó (newly added), Palma de Mallorca,
Tarragona and València have to be removed.

By the way, the first time around, we forgot to add  (hills) to
Peníscola (it's name derives from peña, meaning bouldery hill).

I'd complete the name of newly added Sant Fruitós: Sant Fruitós de
Bages.

I'm not sure whether the newly added city name of Guardamar refers to
Guardamar de la Safor or to Guardamar del Segura. Let's add both! :-) In
both cases, the  (ocean) designation is warranted, and the latter
might deserve the  (river) designation as well.



On Jan 4, 2008 11:29 AM, Joan Creus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 

 This transaction appears to have no content

 The catalan ruleset has a few typos in city names. In the attached patch, I
 have fixed them, added a few more cities, and added a couple new (long dead)
 rulers for good measure. No translatable string has been changed, for
 inclusion in 2.1.

 Thanks,

 Joan


-- 
Miguel Farah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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