Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
Many early CD-ROM drives used on PCs were SCSI, and all of those drivers work on the XT class (8088/8086/V20) CPUs. There were a lot of devices from Future Domain, Trantor, and Adaptec. The Adaptec cards generally required a 16 bit bus but the software runs fine on machines with 8 bit slots. (I've used a lot of the Adaptec SCSI drivers paired with a Future Domain or Trantor ASPI driver.) The Future Domain cards and Trantor cards were well supported in XT class machines. And then there were the parallel port to SCSI devices (many sold by Adaptec). Later/cheaper CD-ROMs came with proprietary IDE-like interfaces. And then finally things settled on ATAPI at the low end of the market. Just an opinion, but it's bad software design to assume that the presence or a peripheral implies a certain class of machine. The presence of a CD-ROM should not imply a 386 or better machine; it's orthogonal. -Mike ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
> The first one I can remember was the Mitsumi CRMC-LU005S single speed > drive, which was the one I had. It had its own card because it was > non-IDE despite the fact that the cable and plug looked exactly like > IDE. They did use a proprietary standard. They definitely worked on an > 80286, so I think we can conclude that CDROMs did not require an > 80386. I can remember some early Shareware CD's with stuff I couldn't > use because I only had a 80286. DJGPP springs to mind. The very first CD players that came out for computers were proprietary and required hardware-specific drivers. Later on there were standards like ATAPI. That's at least part of the reason MS divided the CD software into two separate pieces -- the hardware-specific driver (there are tons of those) and MSCDEX and its clones. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
On Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Danilo Pecher via Freedos-devel wrote: Yeah, around 1993 was when the first ones arrived. I know I was hearing about CD-ROM drives connected to the Apple IIgs when I was still in grade school (so no later than mid-1990)... -uso. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
Yeah, around 1993 was when the first ones arrived. On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 at 01:12, Steve Nickolas via Freedos-devel wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Danilo Pecher via Freedos-devel wrote: > > > The first one I can remember was the Mitsumi CRMC-LU005S single speed > > drive, which was the one I had. It had its own card because it was > > non-IDE despite the fact that the cable and plug looked exactly like > > IDE. They did use a proprietary standard. They definitely worked on an > > 80286, so I think we can conclude that CDROMs did not require an > > 80386. I can remember some early Shareware CD's with stuff I couldn't > > use because I only had a 80286. DJGPP springs to mind. > > I remember seeing an XT with an external CD-ROM drive at a library 30 > years ago. > > -uso. > > > ___ > Freedos-devel mailing list > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
On Mon, 7 Aug 2023, Danilo Pecher via Freedos-devel wrote: The first one I can remember was the Mitsumi CRMC-LU005S single speed drive, which was the one I had. It had its own card because it was non-IDE despite the fact that the cable and plug looked exactly like IDE. They did use a proprietary standard. They definitely worked on an 80286, so I think we can conclude that CDROMs did not require an 80386. I can remember some early Shareware CD's with stuff I couldn't use because I only had a 80286. DJGPP springs to mind. I remember seeing an XT with an external CD-ROM drive at a library 30 years ago. -uso. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
The first one I can remember was the Mitsumi CRMC-LU005S single speed drive, which was the one I had. It had its own card because it was non-IDE despite the fact that the cable and plug looked exactly like IDE. They did use a proprietary standard. They definitely worked on an 80286, so I think we can conclude that CDROMs did not require an 80386. I can remember some early Shareware CD's with stuff I couldn't use because I only had a 80286. DJGPP springs to mind. On Sun, 6 Aug 2023 at 23:59, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel wrote: > > > > On Aug 3, 2023, at 3:57 PM, Ralf Quint via Freedos-devel > wrote: > > On 8/3/2023 11:54 AM, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Bret Johnson via Freedos-devel > wrote: > > > > Yeah, USB and CD/DVD makes only sense for a 386+ ... > > USB, yes. CD/DVD, no. USB requires PCI which in turn requires 386+. > Actually, there were supposedly USB host controllers manufactured for the ISA > bus instead of PCI, but I've never actually seen one. But USB protocols > assume you're using a 32-bit (and in some cases 64-bit) CPU so USB really > only makes sense on 386+, though you could probably make things work on a > lesser CPU if you absolutely had to. > > But CD drivers existed back in the early days and they never required > anything special of the CPU. They would sometimes take advantage of special > features if they were available, but it wasn't required. AFAIK, there are no > DOS DVD drivers anyway since I don't think anything has ever supported UDF. > > I don’t recall any sub-386 ever shipping with a CD-ROM drive. But, there may > have been a couple very high end machines. > > The main problem why I consider a CD/DVD drive is that on pre-386 computers, > you rarely have an IDE/ATAPI controller to connect a common CD-ROM drive. > Yeah, theoretically, you could use a SCSI one, but that's a completely > different kettle of fish... > > The first time I used CD-ROM drives was at least on a 486 machine. You could > try to use and ATAPI controller on an AT class computer (80286, or lower), > but then you are getting down into a deep dark rabbit hole where you need to > know what you're doing anyway, so trying to adapt FreeDOS would be a manual > option. > > Hence, from a general, default installation option POV, I stick with my > assessment that it makes only sense for a 386+ machine... > > > Ralf > > > Yep. Same here. > > For some reason, I’m thinking that first CD drive came with a controller card > because it was a SCSI drive. > > However, I already had a SCSI scanner with a better card and just used that > card. > > But that was 30 years ago, I could be miss-remembering it as SCSI. > > Ah, SCSI terminators…. :-) > > Jerome > > > ___ > Freedos-devel mailing list > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] CD-ROMs was ANSI for DOS
> On Aug 3, 2023, at 3:57 PM, Ralf Quint via Freedos-devel > wrote: > > On 8/3/2023 11:54 AM, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-devel wrote: >> >>> On Aug 3, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Bret Johnson via Freedos-devel >>> wrote: >>> >>> Yeah, USB and CD/DVD makes only sense for a 386+ ... >>> USB, yes. CD/DVD, no. USB requires PCI which in turn requires 386+. >>> Actually, there were supposedly USB host controllers manufactured for the >>> ISA bus instead of PCI, but I've never actually seen one. But USB >>> protocols assume you're using a 32-bit (and in some cases 64-bit) CPU so >>> USB really only makes sense on 386+, though you could probably make things >>> work on a lesser CPU if you absolutely had to. >>> >>> But CD drivers existed back in the early days and they never required >>> anything special of the CPU. They would sometimes take advantage of >>> special features if they were available, but it wasn't required. AFAIK, >>> there are no DOS DVD drivers anyway since I don't think anything has ever >>> supported UDF. >> I don’t recall any sub-386 ever shipping with a CD-ROM drive. But, there may >> have been a couple very high end machines. > The main problem why I consider a CD/DVD drive is that on pre-386 computers, > you rarely have an IDE/ATAPI controller to connect a common CD-ROM drive. > Yeah, theoretically, you could use a SCSI one, but that's a completely > different kettle of fish... > > The first time I used CD-ROM drives was at least on a 486 machine. You could > try to use and ATAPI controller on an AT class computer (80286, or lower), > but then you are getting down into a deep dark rabbit hole where you need to > know what you're doing anyway, so trying to adapt FreeDOS would be a manual > option. > > Hence, from a general, default installation option POV, I stick with my > assessment that it makes only sense for a 386+ machine... > > > Ralf > Yep. Same here. For some reason, I’m thinking that first CD drive came with a controller card because it was a SCSI drive. However, I already had a SCSI scanner with a better card and just used that card. But that was 30 years ago, I could be miss-remembering it as SCSI. Ah, SCSI terminators…. :-) Jerome ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Virtual get-together?
On 8/6/2023 7:52 AM, Bernd Böckmann via Freedos-devel wrote: Am 30.07.2023 um 20:15 schrieb Jim Hall via Freedos-devel : Let's try again next month. Is this today or another Sunday? Jim had changed it from the original July 23 to July 30, due to being sick and then forgot about it last Sunday. So the next meeting will be on August 20, I guess... ;-) Ralf ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Virtual get-together?
> Am 30.07.2023 um 20:15 schrieb Jim Hall via Freedos-devel > : > > Let's try again next month. Is this today or another Sunday? Greetings, Bernd ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
