Re: [Freedos-user] Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[tsiegel--- via Freedos-user]

The original version of open dos (when it was still caldera dos version 
7.01), had a multitasking program you could load on top of the base dos 
system that allowed multitasking.  I don't recall the name of the 
program, and I have no idea if it could be made to run on freedos or 
not, but my guess is probably not, since it depended on the caldera 
version of some utilities to do it's job.  On the other hand, It's 
possible those utilities were included when opendos was released, so it 
might be possible to obtain said programs and give them a try.


I think it was a shell program that loaded when the pc booted that 
allowed the multitasking.  I never it got working myself, but I also 
didn't try very hard, I do know others made it work just fine though.


There's also a program/version called doubledos, which did this as well, 
though I don't know the status of that program at all, so some research 
is in order if you want to use that.


PTS dos may have a multitasking stack as well, it's been many many years 
since I messed with PTS dos, so I could be mistaken on that, and 
probably am, but I do seem to recall it did have that capability if it 
was configured properly.


There's also a product called concurrent dos, though I never saw that 
version myself, so have no idea how well it worked.


Thenk, there's the most popular method of multitasking dos, which was 
the program desqview 386 which was used heavily by many bbs operators, 
so they could have multi line bbs systems.  (I just used multiple 
computers, and ran wildcat),


There was also a shareware program called vm386 that handled 
multitasking on dos quite well, that one I did use, and in fact, it 
worked too well for me, because when I ran multiple programs, I'd get 
speech feedback from both programs, which as you can imagine, didn't 
work very well for me, so unfortunately, I had to stop using that 
program, since a screen reader was necessary for me to use the computer 
due to being blind.


I'm sure there are other programs not listed here that did the trick, 
but I have no experience with them, so can't point them out, but perhaps 
some judicial googling will turn up others, though upon first glance at 
search results myself, I'm not really seeing any, just most pages saying 
it wasn't possible, which is obviously not true.


On 4/10/2024 10:33 AM, Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user wrote:
First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  
I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have two 
applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and 
be able to switch from one to the other without having to exit the 
current application. Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[tsiegel--- via Freedos-user]

Actually, I did find one article that explains the multitasking versions 
of dos quite clearly.


https://lunduke.locals.com/post/4363978/myth-dos-does-not-multitask

it doesn't cover all the versions of dos, but it does a good job of 
hitting most of the major ones that did multitask dos programs.



On 4/10/2024 10:33 AM, Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user wrote:
First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  
I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have two 
applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and 
be able to switch from one to the other without having to exit the 
current application. Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos-user Digest, Vol 2595, Issue 3

[John via Freedos-user]

> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 08:56:58 -0500
> From: Jim Hall 
> 
> I think you have experienced what is known as "AI Hallucination" where
> the AI just makes stuff up.

"I asked ELIZA about this in-depth technical question and here's what
she babbled, can you tell me if it's anything approaching conventional
flesh-brain notions of 'correct?'" is definitely getting to be A Thing
on computing fora/lists of late :/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user]

Sorry

Thanks Jim.

El mié., 10 abr. 2024 16:38, Ramon Riera Marès 
escribió:

> Thanks Paul, Liam, Andrew, Kim.
>
> For the moment I will use SideKick which allows me to use the outliner
> software and the SideKick editor. Although I also use Linux, I am a happy
> Freedos user because I boot from my USB in a second and I am working in two
> seconds. This does not happen with Linux or with any other OS that I know.
>
> Greetings and thanks again.
>
> Ramón Riera
>
> El mié., 10 abr. 2024 16:09, Jim Hall via Freedos-user <
> freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> escribió:
>
>> > Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and
>> collaborators.  I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to
>> have
>> > >> >  two applications running, for example an outliner and a text
>> editor, and be able to switch from one to the other without having to
>> > >> > exit the current application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.
>> >
>>
>>
>> Paul and Liam both mentioned DESQview, which was a popular
>> multitasking system on MS-DOS in the 1990s. I haven't tried it with
>> FreeDOS, so I can't comment how well it works or if it uses MS-DOS
>> features that aren't in FreeDOS.
>>
>> I'll add that MS-DOS also had a "task swapping" feature in DOSSHELL
>> that was pretty neat. That feature showed up in MS-DOS 5 (1991) and I
>> used it all the time when I was a university student. My typical use
>> case was swapping between a word processor and a spreadsheet, such as
>> when I wrote my physics lab reports.
>>
>> An archive of the Microsoft Knowledgebase article about it is copied here:
>> https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/071/Q71870/
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user]

Thanks Paul, Liam, Andrew, Kim.

For the moment I will use SideKick which allows me to use the outliner
software and the SideKick editor. Although I also use Linux, I am a happy
Freedos user because I boot from my USB in a second and I am working in two
seconds. This does not happen with Linux or with any other OS that I know.

Greetings and thanks again.

Ramón Riera

El mié., 10 abr. 2024 16:09, Jim Hall via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> escribió:

> > Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and
> collaborators.  I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to
> have
> > >> >  two applications running, for example an outliner and a text
> editor, and be able to switch from one to the other without having to
> > >> > exit the current application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.
> >
>
>
> Paul and Liam both mentioned DESQview, which was a popular
> multitasking system on MS-DOS in the 1990s. I haven't tried it with
> FreeDOS, so I can't comment how well it works or if it uses MS-DOS
> features that aren't in FreeDOS.
>
> I'll add that MS-DOS also had a "task swapping" feature in DOSSHELL
> that was pretty neat. That feature showed up in MS-DOS 5 (1991) and I
> used it all the time when I was a university student. My typical use
> case was swapping between a word processor and a spreadsheet, such as
> when I wrote my physics lab reports.
>
> An archive of the Microsoft Knowledgebase article about it is copied here:
> https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/071/Q71870/
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Jim Hall via Freedos-user]

> Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
> >>
> >> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  I 
> >> > want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have
> >> >  two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, 
> >> > and be able to switch from one to the other without having to
> >> > exit the current application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.
>


Paul and Liam both mentioned DESQview, which was a popular
multitasking system on MS-DOS in the 1990s. I haven't tried it with
FreeDOS, so I can't comment how well it works or if it uses MS-DOS
features that aren't in FreeDOS.

I'll add that MS-DOS also had a "task swapping" feature in DOSSHELL
that was pretty neat. That feature showed up in MS-DOS 5 (1991) and I
used it all the time when I was a university student. My typical use
case was swapping between a word processor and a spreadsheet, such as
when I wrote my physics lab reports.

An archive of the Microsoft Knowledgebase article about it is copied here:
https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/071/Q71870/


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Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Jim Hall via Freedos-user]

Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
>>
>> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  I 
>> > want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have
>> >  two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and 
>> > be able to switch from one to the other without having to
>> > exit the current application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.

Paul Dufresne wrote:
>>
[..]
>> There was a program, DESKVIEW, that was making an OS that was reentrant... 
>> as far as I understand,
>> that was running over a DOS. Making it easy to have more than one program 
>> running at a time.
>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview
[..]
>

Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul.
>
> I asked AI Gemini and he answered me this:
>
> Question:
>
>  Is there any utility in freedos that allows me to run two programs
>  at the same time?
>
> Gemini answers:
>
>  Yes, there are some utilities in FreeDOS that allow you to run two
>  programs at the same time:
>
>  1. TCC:
>
>  It is a command-line shell that allows you to execute multiple commands
>  in a single line.
>
>  You can use TCC to run two programs at the same time using the &
>  command.
>
>  For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the
>  same time, you would run the following command:
>
>  calc & notepad
>
>  The & command tells TCC to run the following command in the background.
>


This is describing the Take Command ("TCC") CMD shell drop-in
replacement for Windows systems, not DOS:
https://jpsoft.com/products/tcc.html

The only "TCC" programs for DOS that come to mind are Borland's Turbo
C Compiler and the Tiny C Compiler.


>  2. 4DOS:
>
>  It is a DOS shell that allows you to run multiple programs in a
>  single session.
>
>  You can use 4DOS to run two programs at the same time using the
>  START command.
>
>  For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the
>  same time, you would run the following command:
>
>  START calc START notepad
>
>  The START command starts a new program in a separate window.


I was not aware of this feature in 4DOS. In fact, the START command is
not listed in this copy of the 4DOS manual from 1991:

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/jpsoftware/4DOS_Reference_Manual.pdf

The command reference in the back of the manual goes from "SHIFT" (p.
285) to "SWAPPING" (p. 286). In the Index at the end of the manual, it
goes from "Standard output device" (p. 349) to "Startup options" (p.
350) to "StdColors directive (p. 350). So a "START" command isn't
listed anywhere.

4DOS has a "4START" but that is the name of a batch file
("4START.BTM") that runs whenever you start 4DOS, to set the
environment, colors, etc. But that's not the same as the "START"
command listed here.


Also: the way the "START" sample command line is organized, there is
nothing to suggest to the shell where the two commands should be
divided .. or should it run the command "calc" with the possibly valid
options (such as filenames) of "START" and "notepad"?

Also Also: "..in a separate window" should suggest that this is not
referring to a DOS environment, which doesn't run programs in
"windows."


>  3. W4DOS:
>
>  It is a graphical desktop environment for FreeDOS.
>
>  You can use W4DOS to run two programs at the same time by opening
>  two different windows.
>
>  To open a new window, click the "Start" button and then select "Run."
>
>  In the "Run" dialog box, type the name of the program you want to run,
>  and then click "OK."


"W4DOS" isn't familiar to me, and I wasn't able to find any graphical
desktop environment for DOS called "W4DOS." I don't think this one
exists either.


[..]
> --
>
> Does anyone have experience with these utilities?  Which is the
> simplest?
>


I think you have experienced what is known as "AI Hallucination" where
the AI just makes stuff up. I'm afraid that is a problem with
generative AI. I find that generative AI is usually "ok" to "pretty
good" with summarizing current topics, but generally very poor in
describing things that are edge cases like FreeDOS or FORTRAN. (I
experimented with Bard before it was renamed "Gemini," and did
substantial testing with ChatGPT.)


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Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user]

Thanks Paul.

I asked AI Gemini and he answered me this:

Question:

 Is there any utility in freedos that allows me to run two programs at the
same time?

Gemini answers:

 Yes, there are some utilities in FreeDOS that allow you to run two
programs at the same time:

 1. TCC:

 It is a command-line shell that allows you to execute multiple commands in
a single line.

 You can use TCC to run two programs at the same time using the & command.

 For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the same
time, you would run the following command:

 calc & notepad

 The & command tells TCC to run the following command in the background.

 2. 4DOS:

 It is a DOS shell that allows you to run multiple programs in a single
session.

 You can use 4DOS to run two programs at the same time using the START
command.

 For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the same
time, you would run the following command:

 START calc START notepad

 The START command starts a new program in a separate window.

 3. W4DOS:

 It is a graphical desktop environment for FreeDOS.

 You can use W4DOS to run two programs at the same time by opening two
different windows.

 To open a new window, click the "Start" button and then select "Run."

 In the "Run" dialog box, type the name of the program you want to run, and
then click "OK."

 Tool choice:

 The best tool for you will depend on your needs and preferences.

 If you need a simple way to run two programs at the same time, TCC is a
good option.

 If you need a more flexible way to run two programs at the same time, 4DOS
is a good option.

 If you want to run two programs at the same time in a graphical
environment, W4DOS is a good option.

--

Does anyone have experience with these utilities?  Which is the simplest?

Thanks and regards,

Ramón Riera

El mié., 10 abr. 2024 13:21, Paul Dufresne  escribió:

>  Le mer., 10 avr. 2024 06:33:38 -0400 Ramon Riera Marès via
> Freedos-user  a écrit 
>
> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  I
> want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have
> >  two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor,
> and be able to switch from one to the other without having to
> > exit the current application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.
>
> It is possible, but very hard to write, because DOS is not reentrant:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reentrancy_(computing)
>
> DOS have a call to quit a program, but leaving it in memory Terminate
> Stay Resident (TSR).
> But such programs must respect special rules to avoid DOS to crash.
>
> There was a program, DESKVIEW, that was making an OS that was reentrant...
> as far as I understand,
> that was running over a DOS. Making it easy to have more than one program
> running at a time.
> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview
>
> I don't know how hard it would be to make FreeDOS reentrant... or what was
> the recent infos as
> I am mostly basing the info I give here to what I learns in the nineties.
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[andrew fabbro via Freedos-user]

On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 4:18 AM Liam Proven via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

>
> There are multitasking DOSes out there, but they are aimed at multiple
> people sharing one PC, such as MultiUser DOS. Some are even FOSS:
>
> https://github.com/roelandjansen/pcmos386v501
>

On the Wikipedia page for PC-MOS it says: "MMU support for 286 class
machines was provided using a proprietary hardware shim inserted between
the processor and its socket."

That's pretty wild.


> There are multitasking layers you can load on top of DOS, such as DESQview.
>

And TSR programs
.

-- 
andrew fabbro
and...@fabbro.org
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[Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Paul Dufresne via Freedos-user]

 Le mer., 10 avr. 2024 06:33:38 -0400 Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user  a 
écrit 

> First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  I want 
> to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have
>  two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and be 
> able to switch from one to the other without having to
> exit the current application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.

It is possible, but very hard to write, because DOS is not reentrant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reentrancy_(computing)

DOS have a call to quit a program, but leaving it in memory Terminate Stay 
Resident (TSR).
But such programs must respect special rules to avoid DOS to crash.

There was a program, DESKVIEW, that was making an OS that was reentrant... as 
far as I understand,
that was running over a DOS. Making it easy to have more than one program 
running at a time.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview

I don't know how hard it would be to make FreeDOS reentrant... or what was the 
recent infos as
I am mostly basing the info I give here to what I learns in the nineties.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Liam Proven via Freedos-user]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 11:36, Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
>  I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have two 
> applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and be able 
> to switch from one to the other without having to exit the current 
> application.

This is called "multitasking" and the fact that DOS didn't do it is
pretty much why DOS was replaced in the early 1990s by Windows, Linux,
and other OSes.

There are multitasking DOSes out there, but they are aimed at multiple
people sharing one PC, such as MultiUser DOS. Some are even FOSS:

https://github.com/roelandjansen/pcmos386v501

There are multitasking layers you can load on top of DOS, such as DESQview.

But no, unaided DOS can't do that. In the 21st century DOS is more or
less "the old PC OS that did not multitask." This is its defining
characteristic.


-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053


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[Freedos-user] Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running

[Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user]

First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators.  I
want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have two
applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and be
able to switch from one to the other without having to exit the current
application.  Thanks and regards.  Ramon Riera.
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