Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[[GlassNerves] via Freedos-user]

Good talk and tips, thank you all. I will test the mentioned methods soon.

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--- Original Message ---

Em domingo, 13 de fevereiro de 2022 às 3:20 PM, Ray Davison 
 escreveu:

> Ray Davison wrote:
>
> > [GlassNerves] via Freedos-user wrote:
> >
> > > Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?
> >
> > You all work much too hard. When things were in transition I had
> >
> > multiple DOS as well as "DOS based" Win all on a single 2G FAT 16 at the
> >
> > front of the drive.
> >
> > You just need a real boot manager. I did it with System Commander. All
> >
> > I did was a normal install of each OS. I did not need to fiddle with
> >
> > anything. SC did all that for me.
>
> And, when Win got it's own OS, I gave them their own partition, but
>
> there was/is only one primary: FAT 16 at the front. Every OS/2 and Win
>
> is on a logical, including W7.
>
> My desk tops all have two Win. two OS/2, and FreeDOS. My laptops have
>
> two W7.
>
> Ray
>
> Freedos-user mailing list
>
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Ray Davison]

Ray Davison wrote:

[GlassNerves] via Freedos-user wrote:

Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?



You all work much too hard.  When things were in transition I had 
multiple DOS as well as "DOS based" Win all on a single 2G FAT 16 at the 
front of the drive.


You just need a real boot manager.  I did it with System Commander.  All 
I did was a normal install of each OS.  I did not need to fiddle with 
anything.  SC did all that for me.


And, when Win got it's own OS, I gave them their own partition, but 
there was/is only one primary: FAT 16 at the front.  Every OS/2 and Win 
is on a logical, including W7.


My desk tops all have two Win. two OS/2, and FreeDOS.  My laptops have 
two W7.


Ray





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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Ray Davison]

[GlassNerves] via Freedos-user wrote:

Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?



You all work much too hard.  When things were in transition I had 
multiple DOS as well as "DOS based" Win all on a single 2G FAT 16 at the 
front of the drive.


You just need a real boot manager.  I did it with System Commander.  All 
I did was a normal install of each OS.  I did not need to fiddle with 
anything.  SC did all that for me.


Ray


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Björn Morell]

Yes, when booting to Freedos (or DrDos) it wll be C: and my W95 will be 
D: and a logical partiton E:


booting to W95 it will be C: and freedos/drdos will be D: and te logical E:

booting to linux it will be on hd1 (swap on hda2 and backup on hda3) and 
freedos on hb1 and drdos on hb2 and w95 on hdc1


Den 2022-02-12 kl. 13:02, skrev Liam Proven:

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 at 01:52, Travis Siegel  wrote:

Not true.

Sometimes true.


If both of the partitions are primary partitions, and the bootable flag is 
swapped from one to the other, then when one boots, the second will be drive 
d:, and vice versa.

It depends on the OSes in use.

The formal DOS schema is:

[1 primary and then one extended containing multiple logical drives] x per drive

Letter allocation is complicated:
DOS and DOS-based OSes:
[1] iterate through physical drives assigning letters to primary
partitions in drive order, starting at C
Then
[2] iterate through all logical drives on each drive assigning letters

So if there is:

1:[(primary){extended(logical 1)(logical 2)}]
2: [(primary){extended(logical 1)(logical 2)}]

Then you will get this:

1:[(primary C:){extended(logical 1 E:)(logical 2 F:)}]
2: [(primary D:){extended(logical 1 G:)(logical 2 H:)}]

Drive letters are not in physical drive sequence.

Note: there is only 1 permitted primary per drive.

If you have >1 visible primary per drive, Win NT 3-4 would fail with a BSOD.

Win95B and on, which support FAT32, might handle it, but might also
fail to boot. I've never managed to pin down all variations.

Win2K could handle it but would BSOD if the partitions were not in
numerical order:

1:[(primary){extended(logical 1)(logical 2)}] <- fine, works
1:[(primary){extended(logical 2)(logical 1)}] <- BSOD on boot-up

XP could handle it.

Vista and on dump all the old DOS-based logic and use a new system.

But DOS is tricky these days. Many people have extracted "MS-DOS 7.1"
from Win98 and use it standalone. I *think* these variants *can*
handle >1 visible (unhidden) primary, but I have a suspicion that the
old FAT16-only versions can't.

But you're not meant to do this; it wasn't in the DOS design.
Additional primaries were for non-DOS OSes with formats that DOS can't
read: back then, Netware, Xenix, etc.

It may work in later versions, but I advise against totally relying on it.




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Bret Johnson]

>> The problem with this approach is that the programs are almost
>> never on C:, and they may not be on D: either.  The way I manage
>> that is to set myself up an S: ("System") drive which is where the
>> programs are located.  I use whatever tools I have available in the
>> DOS I'm using to do that (usually SUBST or SWSUBST, but e.g. in
>> DOSBox I need to use MOUNT).  I have the programs and batch files
>> set up to assume S: instead of C: for the default drive.
>>
>> That's probably too complicated of a setup for most people, but is
>> how I do it.
>
> Aha. That's a good idea. Thank you -- I may try that.

Just as an FYI, if you're going to do something like that, as you're booting 
you'll also want to set up environment variable(s) to indicate which VM you're 
in and possibly which version/manufacturer of DOS you're using.  You may need 
that in some of the batch files since there are certain times when things work 
a little differently depending on the operating environment.

The main one that pops to mind right now is that I have a batch file called 
ETHERNET that sets up the LAN packet driver.  When I'm running in "real" DOS, 
the driver that needs to get loaded is the one for the real NIC in the 
computer.  In a VM the NIC is always virtualized, and exactly which NIC is 
virtualized varies by VM.  The ETHERNET.BAT file looks at the environment 
variables to determine which packet driver to load.  The ETHERNET.BAT file will 
also unload the packet driver if it is unloadable (some are and some aren't).

I know I have a few other batch files where the operating environment makes a 
difference, though most of the time it doesn't matter.  The main VM I have a 
problem with sometimes is DOSBox, since it's actually a Virtual DOS rather than 
just a Virtual Machine, so (among other things) not all of the DOS internal 
structures are there which causes problems with some programs.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Liam Proven]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 at 01:52, Travis Siegel  wrote:
>
> Not true.

Sometimes true.

> If both of the partitions are primary partitions, and the bootable flag is 
> swapped from one to the other, then when one boots, the second will be drive 
> d:, and vice versa.

It depends on the OSes in use.

The formal DOS schema is:

[1 primary and then one extended containing multiple logical drives] x per drive

Letter allocation is complicated:
DOS and DOS-based OSes:
[1] iterate through physical drives assigning letters to primary
partitions in drive order, starting at C
Then
[2] iterate through all logical drives on each drive assigning letters

So if there is:

1:[(primary){extended(logical 1)(logical 2)}]
2: [(primary){extended(logical 1)(logical 2)}]

Then you will get this:

1:[(primary C:){extended(logical 1 E:)(logical 2 F:)}]
2: [(primary D:){extended(logical 1 G:)(logical 2 H:)}]

Drive letters are not in physical drive sequence.

Note: there is only 1 permitted primary per drive.

If you have >1 visible primary per drive, Win NT 3-4 would fail with a BSOD.

Win95B and on, which support FAT32, might handle it, but might also
fail to boot. I've never managed to pin down all variations.

Win2K could handle it but would BSOD if the partitions were not in
numerical order:

1:[(primary){extended(logical 1)(logical 2)}] <- fine, works
1:[(primary){extended(logical 2)(logical 1)}] <- BSOD on boot-up

XP could handle it.

Vista and on dump all the old DOS-based logic and use a new system.

But DOS is tricky these days. Many people have extracted "MS-DOS 7.1"
from Win98 and use it standalone. I *think* these variants *can*
handle >1 visible (unhidden) primary, but I have a suspicion that the
old FAT16-only versions can't.

But you're not meant to do this; it wasn't in the DOS design.
Additional primaries were for non-DOS OSes with formats that DOS can't
read: back then, Netware, Xenix, etc.

It may work in later versions, but I advise against totally relying on it.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Björn Morell]

Hmm.

 I have two  primary partitions, Freedos and DrDos on a drive and only 
the active one is visible.


 I have 3 drives, first one has Damn Small Linux and LILO as boot 
manager second has Freedos and Drdos and the third Windows 95 (with Lite 
Step shell).


In DSL I can mount them all, booting to Freedos I can see Windows but 
not DrDos, if I boot to DrDos I can see Windows but not Freedos.


I have not tried regular fdisk though only xfdisk there one activates or 
deactivates and Show and Hide in fdisk there is only activate or 
deactivate so that could work, I guess you have to run fdisk and 
rebooteach time you want to change though.




Den 2022-02-12 kl. 01:50, skrev Travis Siegel:


Not true.

If both of the partitions are primary partitions, and the bootable 
flag is swapped from one to the other, then when one boots, the second 
will be drive d:, and vice versa.  I used to use the fdisk method all 
the time, I dual booted linux, and dos, so I see no reason why it 
wouldn't work with windows and dos as well.  Obviously,, I couldn't 
access the linux partition from dos, because it didn't read the linux 
file system, but linux had no trouble seeing the dos partition, and 
another friend I had used dos/windows (as requested in the original 
post), and that worked just fine, he could see both drives no matter 
which os he booted.


Obviously, I've not tried this in years, but I see no reason why 
things would have changed in this regard.



On 2/11/2022 5:08 PM, Björn Morell wrote:


If you want to access one from the other you cannot as it will be 
hidden, for that to work you need separat drives or the coplcated 
method, if not xfdisk on a bootable floppy or usb will be handy while 
installing.


Den 2022-02-11 kl. 22:14, skrev [GlassNerves] via Freedos-user:

Thanks for the answers guys. I see i have a lot of options.
I don't wanna to install FreeDOS in the same partition of Windows 98 
because this is complicated as hell. I will make two partitions and 
will be using the xfdisk method.


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--- Original Message ---
Em sexta-feira, 11 de fevereiro de 2022 às 2:36 AM, [GlassNerves] 
 escreveu:

Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Travis Siegel]

Not true.

If both of the partitions are primary partitions, and the bootable flag 
is swapped from one to the other, then when one boots, the second will 
be drive d:, and vice versa.  I used to use the fdisk method all the 
time, I dual booted linux, and dos, so I see no reason why it wouldn't 
work with windows and dos as well. Obviously,, I couldn't access the 
linux partition from dos, because it didn't read the linux file system, 
but linux had no trouble seeing the dos partition, and another friend I 
had used dos/windows (as requested in the original post), and that 
worked just fine, he could see both drives no matter which os he booted.


Obviously, I've not tried this in years, but I see no reason why things 
would have changed in this regard.



On 2/11/2022 5:08 PM, Björn Morell wrote:


If you want to access one from the other you cannot as it will be 
hidden, for that to work you need separat drives or the coplcated 
method, if not xfdisk on a bootable floppy or usb will be handy while 
installing.


Den 2022-02-11 kl. 22:14, skrev [GlassNerves] via Freedos-user:

Thanks for the answers guys. I see i have a lot of options.
I don't wanna to install FreeDOS in the same partition of Windows 98 
because this is complicated as hell. I will make two partitions and 
will be using the xfdisk method.


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--- Original Message ---
Em sexta-feira, 11 de fevereiro de 2022 às 2:36 AM, [GlassNerves] 
 escreveu:

Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?

Sent with ProtonMail  Secure Email.




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Liam Proven]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 at 00:28, Bret Johnson  wrote:
>
> Even in Virtual machines, I always set up very small "boot drive" (usually 
> only a few MB) as C:.  It only contains the things required to boot and a few 
> basic utilities (including a simple text editor).

Yep, when I was putting in Windows NT boxes on customers' networks,
that's what I did too. Handy for BIOS reflashing, emergency recovery
and so on. I usually tried to make it big enough to hold the swap file
-- that reduced fragmentation on the NT system drive, and also FAT16's
big clusters make for good swapfile performance (faster than NTFS or
FAT32).


> All of the useful programs are on a separate drive (usually D:, but it 
> depends on the specific environment).  That way I only need to manage one 
> copy of all the programs and can use them consistently no matter how DOS 
> booted.

Good plan.

> The problem with this approach is that the programs are almost never on C:, 
> and they may not be on D: either.  The way I manage that is to set myself up 
> an S: ("System") drive which is where the programs are located.  I use 
> whatever tools I have available in the DOS I'm using to do that (usually 
> SUBST or SWSUBST, but e.g. in DOSBox I need to use MOUNT).  I have the 
> programs and batch files set up to assume S: instead of C: for the default 
> drive.
>
> That's probably too complicated of a setup for most people, but is how I do 
> it.

Aha. That's a good idea. Thank you -- I may try that.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Bret Johnson]

> Small primary FAT16 partition with FreeDOS. Bigger primary FAT32
> partition with Win9x. Then an extended partition, with some logical
> drives in it, which will be visible to both.

Even in Virtual machines, I always set up very small "boot drive" (usually only 
a few MB) as C:.  It only contains the things required to boot and a few basic 
utilities (including a simple text editor).  All of the useful programs are on 
a separate drive (usually D:, but it depends on the specific environment).  
That way I only need to manage one copy of all the programs and can use them 
consistently no matter how DOS booted.

The problem with this approach is that the programs are almost never on C:, and 
they may not be on D: either.  The way I manage that is to set myself up an S: 
("System") drive which is where the programs are located.  I use whatever tools 
I have available in the DOS I'm using to do that (usually SUBST or SWSUBST, but 
e.g. in DOSBox I need to use MOUNT).  I have the programs and batch files set 
up to assume S: instead of C: for the default drive.

That's probably too complicated of a setup for most people, but is how I do it.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 at 23:09, Björn Morell  wrote:
>
> If you want to access one from the other you cannot as it will be hidden, for 
> that to work you need separat drives

Not really, no.

Small primary FAT16 partition with FreeDOS. Bigger primary FAT32
partition with Win9x. Then an extended partition, with some logical
drives in it, which will be visible to both.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Björn Morell]

If you want to access one from the other you cannot as it will be 
hidden, for that to work you need separat drives or the coplcated 
method, if not xfdisk on a bootable floppy or usb will be handy while 
installing.


Den 2022-02-11 kl. 22:14, skrev [GlassNerves] via Freedos-user:

Thanks for the answers guys. I see i have a lot of options.
I don't wanna to install FreeDOS in the same partition of Windows 98 
because this is complicated as hell. I will make two partitions and 
will be using the xfdisk method.


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--- Original Message ---
Em sexta-feira, 11 de fevereiro de 2022 às 2:36 AM, [GlassNerves] 
 escreveu:

Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[[GlassNerves] via Freedos-user]

Thanks for the answers guys. I see i have a lot of options.
I don't wanna to install FreeDOS in the same partition of Windows 98 because 
this is complicated as hell. I will make two partitions and will be using the 
xfdisk method.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) Secure Email.

--- Original Message ---
Em sexta-feira, 11 de fevereiro de 2022 às 2:36 AM, [GlassNerves] 
 escreveu:

> Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Liam Proven]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 at 18:17, Bret Johnson  wrote:
>
> I still have a computer (not hooked up to a keyboard or monitor any more) 
> which uses an old commercial program called System Commander.

I remember that. It was pretty good, yeah.

I was a PowerQuest fan back in the day, so for many years I used
PowerQuest BootMagic. It came with PartitionMagic, but it was also
made freeware at some point and featured on a few magazine cover CDs.

E.g. there seems to be a copy here, but I haven't tried it.
https://powerquest-bootmagic.software.informer.com/

Do run a virus scan though!

The config tool runs under DOS, so you need a DOS bootable partition
to change its settings. It needs to run from FAT, too, but FAT16 or
FAT32 will both do. It can hide and unhide partitions so incompatible
OSes can live side-by-side. It worked with PC and DR DOS, Linux,
BeOS/Haiku, Oberon A2/Bluebottle, and some other things I've thrown at
it -- OS/2 2/3/4, NT up to about XP, and so on.

I think I even had DOS and Win9x side by side using it. I think it
predates Vista and BCD boot so it might struggle with that.

It's my personal favourite, but System Commander was also very capable.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Bret Johnson]

I still have a computer (not hooked up to a keyboard or monitor any more) which 
uses an old commercial program called System Commander.  System Commander would 
let you load several different versions of DOS on the same C: drive.  I think I 
have about 10 different versions of DOS on the same C: partition (different 
versions of MS-DOS, PC-DOS, DR-DOS, etc.).  I don't remember the exact details, 
and I don't remember if it works with FreeDOS, and it would be a hassle to get 
the system booting again to see exactly what all I have on it.

What System Commander does is make copies of the hidden system files needed to 
boot (IO.SYS & MSDOS.SYS or IBMBIO.COM & IBMDOS.COM), along with COMMAND.COM, 
CONFIG.SYS, & AUTOEXEC.BAT for each version of DOS.  When you boot, you select 
from the System Commander boot menu exactly which version you want to load and 
it does all the manipulation of the hard drive needed to accomplish that 
(backups and copies the necessary files) and then finishes booting.  If you're 
wanting to experiment with several different versions of DOS, I found that the 
best program to use.

Since you're only wanting to experiment with two DOS versions, you probably 
don't need anything as sophisticated as that.  Something like Eric's METAKERN 
might work (I've never used it), or the other suggestion of using two separate 
partitions would also work but you would probably also want some kind of boot 
manager to go along with it.  IIRC the Ranish Partition Manager would let you 
build/manipulate the partitions and also provided a simple boot loader.

I personally use a commercial program called BootIt to manage my booting with 
DOS, Windows, and sometimes Linux.  I know lots of people use *nix utilities 
GRUB or LILO but I have never used those myself.  I also know there are other 
boot managers available out there but haven't used any of them.

Bottom line is that you can do it and there are several ways it can be done, 
and you'll get lots of opinions on the "best" way to do it.  I wouldn't suggest 
doing it the way I do (with commercial programs), though.  I use commercial 
programs because at the time (many, many years ago) the available free programs 
really didn't do what I needed.  I think you can find something free today to 
do what you want.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Björn Morell]

H !

How about making 2 partitions on the drive  and use xfdisk to make the 
partitions whitch have a boot  manager that hide and shows desired 
partition  ? Install Freedos and xfdisk on the first and then hide it 
and instal windows on the second.




Den 2022-02-11 kl. 09:40, skrev Eric Auer:


Hi!


Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?


It is possible, but not easy to install. Both Win98 and FreeDOS
can use the same FAT32 C: drive, so you need a boot sector side
boot menu such as my "metakern". You can also use a MBR style
boot menu which alternately hides one of two FAT partitions,
but I have no experience with that.

To install, you first have to install Windows 98. Then you need
a tool to make a copy of the Windows boot sector and store that
as a file. I think you can use options of our SYS tool to achieve
that. Also make a backup of your config.sys, then install FreeDOS.

Metakern is then used together with the backup of your Windows
boot sector to create a "kernel" file and you use FreeDOS SYS
to change the boot sector of your C: drive to one which loads
that "meta-kernel".

Booting C: will now open a menu where you can either continue
to boot FreeDOS or switch to booting Windows. You have to use
FDCONFIG.SYS for FreeDOS (if it finds one, it will use that
instead of CONFIG.SYS, so the latter stays free for Win98: If
the FreeDOS installer has overwritten the Windows config, you
can rename the FreeDOS config and copy back your backup of the
Windows config). Also, your FDCONFIG.SYS SHELL line has to say
that you want to use FreeDOS FreeCOM instead of command.com of
Win98 with a FreeDOS batch file other than AUTOEXEC.BAT, so you
can keep the latter free for Win98 use.

If anything goes wrong, simply use our SYS to copy your backup
of the Win98 boot sector over the C: boot sector, so you remove
the menu and boot directly into Win98 again. As mentioned, make
sure to backup your config.sys, autoexec.bat, command.com and
boot sector BEFORE you install FreeDOS. So in case any of them
gets overwritten, you can rename the FreeDOS version and copy
back the Windows version.

Regards, Eric

PS: Metakern can aloso offer to continue booting into WinNT/XP/...
or Linux primary partitions if it detects those in the MBR. Patching
the FreeDOS boot sector in RAM, it should be able to work from any
partition where FreeDOS works, but SYS may have started to show some
incompatibilities at any time since 2003. Use at your own risk :-)





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Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[Eric Auer]

Hi!


Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?


It is possible, but not easy to install. Both Win98 and FreeDOS
can use the same FAT32 C: drive, so you need a boot sector side
boot menu such as my "metakern". You can also use a MBR style
boot menu which alternately hides one of two FAT partitions,
but I have no experience with that.

To install, you first have to install Windows 98. Then you need
a tool to make a copy of the Windows boot sector and store that
as a file. I think you can use options of our SYS tool to achieve
that. Also make a backup of your config.sys, then install FreeDOS.

Metakern is then used together with the backup of your Windows
boot sector to create a "kernel" file and you use FreeDOS SYS
to change the boot sector of your C: drive to one which loads
that "meta-kernel".

Booting C: will now open a menu where you can either continue
to boot FreeDOS or switch to booting Windows. You have to use
FDCONFIG.SYS for FreeDOS (if it finds one, it will use that
instead of CONFIG.SYS, so the latter stays free for Win98: If
the FreeDOS installer has overwritten the Windows config, you
can rename the FreeDOS config and copy back your backup of the
Windows config). Also, your FDCONFIG.SYS SHELL line has to say
that you want to use FreeDOS FreeCOM instead of command.com of
Win98 with a FreeDOS batch file other than AUTOEXEC.BAT, so you
can keep the latter free for Win98 use.

If anything goes wrong, simply use our SYS to copy your backup
of the Win98 boot sector over the C: boot sector, so you remove
the menu and boot directly into Win98 again. As mentioned, make
sure to backup your config.sys, autoexec.bat, command.com and
boot sector BEFORE you install FreeDOS. So in case any of them
gets overwritten, you can rename the FreeDOS version and copy
back the Windows version.

Regards, Eric

PS: Metakern can aloso offer to continue booting into WinNT/XP/...
or Linux primary partitions if it detects those in the MBR. Patching
the FreeDOS boot sector in RAM, it should be able to work from any
partition where FreeDOS works, but SYS may have started to show some
incompatibilities at any time since 2003. Use at your own risk :-)





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[Freedos-user] Dual Boot winth Windows 98

[[GlassNerves] via Freedos-user]

Using only one HD, is this possible or can cause some conflit?

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