Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-29 Thread mcelhanon
First, the response was in reference to a MS NT setup, that would
require commercial licensing fees that could easily run into hundreds
or even thousands of dollars, unless the idea was to try and get away
with operating an unlicensed setup and hope not to get sued. Of
course, a knowledgeable person could do it with open source software
as well. That just wasn't what was described.

Second, the setup required a php-based web interface to a database,
which would require a knowledgeable person to configure for the needs
of the convention. If that skill wasn't freely available to the
convention organizers, then they would have to pay for that work.

The hardware is minor. A satisfactory server-based system could
probably be put together with hardware currently considered obsolete
by industry standards for even less then you quoted. It is the cost of
legal use and skilled labor that could easily push it to 100x the cost
of the original setup described. Assuming that the organizers did all
the setup themselves, they probably didn't spend anything. Probably
sprang for some new floppy disks would be about it.

On 5/28/14, Christopher Evans aaxiomfin...@gmail.com wrote:
 100x the cost?  what the cost of a server ? 400. a couple of surplus
 laptops at 200 a wifi router for 150 = 750 estimate

 --
 -chris
 Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
 Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
 http://digitalatoll.com/
 http://tawakisoft.com/
 Cell: 916-612-6904
 Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming






 On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:09 AM, mcelha...@usnetizen.com wrote:

 A far superior arrangement for probably 100x the cost. Perhaps the
 convention organizers preferred to spend that money on things that
 were more meaningful to the convention attendees. Or maybe they just
 wanted to keep the money for themselves? Who knows?


 On 5/27/14, Christopher Evans aaxiomfin...@gmail.com wrote:
  I would have implemented WinNT networked laptops running a php
 registration
  signin/signup form in a browser that communicates with central
  database.
  and allow badge printing by network printer.
 
 
 
 
  --
  -chris
  Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
  Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
  http://digitalatoll.com/
  http://tawakisoft.com/
  Cell: 916-612-6904
  Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:14 PM, dmccunney
  dennis.mccun...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
  matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:
 
   So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it is
   nice
   to know it's being used. :)
 
  DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
  annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
  Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
  Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
  ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted from
  a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they swapped
  in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
  registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
  and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
  synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
  database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
  programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
  annoying stuff in DBase III.
 
  I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
  database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals connected
  to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
  networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
  MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several levels
  of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it was
  a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
  was impressed, and said so.
  __
  Dennis
  https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
 
 
 
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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-29 Thread Christopher Evans
My costs are based on my knowledge of building a server from scratch using
www.jdr.com as a basis.




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On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 7:26 AM, mcelha...@usnetizen.com wrote:

 First, the response was in reference to a MS NT setup, that would
 require commercial licensing fees that could easily run into hundreds
 or even thousands of dollars, unless the idea was to try and get away
 with operating an unlicensed setup and hope not to get sued. Of
 course, a knowledgeable person could do it with open source software
 as well. That just wasn't what was described.

 Second, the setup required a php-based web interface to a database,
 which would require a knowledgeable person to configure for the needs
 of the convention. If that skill wasn't freely available to the
 convention organizers, then they would have to pay for that work.

 The hardware is minor. A satisfactory server-based system could
 probably be put together with hardware currently considered obsolete
 by industry standards for even less then you quoted. It is the cost of
 legal use and skilled labor that could easily push it to 100x the cost
 of the original setup described. Assuming that the organizers did all
 the setup themselves, they probably didn't spend anything. Probably
 sprang for some new floppy disks would be about it.

 On 5/28/14, Christopher Evans aaxiomfin...@gmail.com wrote:
  100x the cost?  what the cost of a server ? 400. a couple of surplus
  laptops at 200 a wifi router for 150 = 750 estimate
 
  --
  -chris
  Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
  Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
  http://digitalatoll.com/
  http://tawakisoft.com/
  Cell: 916-612-6904
  Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:09 AM, mcelha...@usnetizen.com wrote:
 
  A far superior arrangement for probably 100x the cost. Perhaps the
  convention organizers preferred to spend that money on things that
  were more meaningful to the convention attendees. Or maybe they just
  wanted to keep the money for themselves? Who knows?
 
 
  On 5/27/14, Christopher Evans aaxiomfin...@gmail.com wrote:
   I would have implemented WinNT networked laptops running a php
  registration
   signin/signup form in a browser that communicates with central
   database.
   and allow badge printing by network printer.
  
  
  
  
   --
   -chris
   Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
   Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
   http://digitalatoll.com/
   http://tawakisoft.com/
   Cell: 916-612-6904
   Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming
  
  
  
  
  
  
   On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:14 PM, dmccunney
   dennis.mccun...@gmail.comwrote:
  
   On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
   matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:
  
So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it
 is
nice
to know it's being used. :)
  
   DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
   annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
   Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
   Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
   ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted from
   a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they
 swapped
   in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
   registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
   and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
   synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
   database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
   programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
   annoying stuff in DBase III.
  
   I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
   database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals connected
   to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
   networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
   MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several levels
   of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it was
   a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
   was impressed, and said so.
   __
   Dennis
   https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
  
  
  
 
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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-29 Thread Dale E Sterner
You can buy 44 pin laptop (made in China) cf adapters on Amazom for less
than $5.
The DOS image can be made using GHOST 2001 or xcopy loaded onto a floppy.
Most laptop hardrives are easy to remove, DELL uses a removable drawer.
Copy the hardrive using the floppy then pop out the hardrive and replace
it with the chip.
I find 4 gigs good for DOS. Use 2 FAT 16 partitions or for FREEDOS 1 FAT
32.
Used 4 gig chips useily sell for $10 to $15 on Amazon. I leave the screws
out of my laptop
so that I can replace the chip quickly - 30 second about. A little slower
than floppy.

cheers
DS

On Wed, 28 May 2014 13:23:23 -0400 dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com
writes:
 On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Dale E Sterner 
 sunbeam...@juno.com wrote:
  If they ran DOS on a CF chip; they could pull out the chip DOS 
 included
  and send it it in.
  Smaller than a flopppy and less easily damaged by magnets..
 
 You just won't let that notion go.
 
 They would have to *have* DOS and the application software on a CF
 chip, and install a chip in each machine used.  This has the expense
 of getting the chips, and the skilled labor involved in loading the
 image on the chips and equipping the machines to be used with the
 chips. Then you have the question for getting the data off the chip,
 because you *don't* want to have to open the machine and pull the 
 chip
 to do it.
 
 This operation used ancient laptops available for next to nothing,
 with no hard drive and only a floppy.  Floppies were dirt cheap, and
 it was quick and simple to duplicate as many copies of the program
 diskette and data diskette as needed. There were used for a 5 day
 period, because the convention runs from Thursday through Monday.
 Damage by magnet was not a concern, as the equipment was all used at 
 a
 registration area set up in the convention center that all Worldcon
 attendees went to to pick up their badges and other con material (if
 they had pre-registered), or fill out a form and pay for a 
 membership
 at the door.  When registration was not operating, the laptops and
 floppies were in a storage area,
 
 And because each laptop had a data disk with its own copy of the
 registration database, there were multiple backups by the nature of
 the process.  At the end of the convention, the final cpoy of the
 registration database was transferred to a server for conversion to
 other formats and archival storage.
 
 What you suggest would simply have been more trouble than it was 
 worth.
 _
 Dennis
 https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
 

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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-28 Thread mcelhanon
A far superior arrangement for probably 100x the cost. Perhaps the
convention organizers preferred to spend that money on things that
were more meaningful to the convention attendees. Or maybe they just
wanted to keep the money for themselves? Who knows?


On 5/27/14, Christopher Evans aaxiomfin...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would have implemented WinNT networked laptops running a php registration
 signin/signup form in a browser that communicates with central database.
 and allow badge printing by network printer.




 --
 -chris
 Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
 Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
 http://digitalatoll.com/
 http://tawakisoft.com/
 Cell: 916-612-6904
 Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming






 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:14 PM, dmccunney
 dennis.mccun...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
 matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:

  So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it is
  nice
  to know it's being used. :)

 DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
 annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
 Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
 Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
 ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted from
 a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they swapped
 in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
 registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
 and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
 synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
 database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
 programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
 annoying stuff in DBase III.

 I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
 database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals connected
 to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
 networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
 MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several levels
 of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it was
 a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
 was impressed, and said so.
 __
 Dennis
 https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519


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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-28 Thread Dale E Sterner
If they ran DOS on a CF chip; they could pull out the chip DOS included
and send it it in.
Smaller than a flopppy and less easily damaged by magnets..

cheers
DS

On Tue, 27 May 2014 23:14:18 -0400 dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com
writes:
 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
 matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:
 
  So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it 
 is nice
  to know it's being used. :)
 
 DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
 annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
 Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
 Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
 ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted 
 from
 a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they 
 swapped
 in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
 registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
 and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
 synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
 database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
 programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
 annoying stuff in DBase III.
 
 I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
 database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals 
 connected
 to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
 networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
 MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several 
 levels
 of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it 
 was
 a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
 was impressed, and said so.
 __
 Dennis
 https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
 

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***


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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-28 Thread dmccunney
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:09 AM,  mcelha...@usnetizen.com wrote:
 A far superior arrangement for probably 100x the cost. Perhaps the
 convention organizers preferred to spend that money on things that
 were more meaningful to the convention attendees. Or maybe they just
 wanted to keep the money for themselves? Who knows?

*I* know, because I work on such things.  SF conventions like the one
I mentioned are put on by sponsoring groups that are 501c3 tax exempt
non-profit corporations.  They are hobbyist efforts put on by unpaid
volunteers.  People working on the convention are reimbursed for
expenses they incurred on behalf of the convention.   If the
convention generates sufficient revenue to pay the bills, those who
worked on it may get their membership fee refunded.  (Not all SF
conventions do well enough to manage that.)

LACon IV's organizers chose to allocate convention funds to other
areas, and found an effective solution for reducing what would have to
be spent for the convention registration function.
__
Dennis
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-28 Thread dmccunney
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com wrote:
 If they ran DOS on a CF chip; they could pull out the chip DOS included
 and send it it in.
 Smaller than a flopppy and less easily damaged by magnets..

You just won't let that notion go.

They would have to *have* DOS and the application software on a CF
chip, and install a chip in each machine used.  This has the expense
of getting the chips, and the skilled labor involved in loading the
image on the chips and equipping the machines to be used with the
chips. Then you have the question for getting the data off the chip,
because you *don't* want to have to open the machine and pull the chip
to do it.

This operation used ancient laptops available for next to nothing,
with no hard drive and only a floppy.  Floppies were dirt cheap, and
it was quick and simple to duplicate as many copies of the program
diskette and data diskette as needed. There were used for a 5 day
period, because the convention runs from Thursday through Monday.
Damage by magnet was not a concern, as the equipment was all used at a
registration area set up in the convention center that all Worldcon
attendees went to to pick up their badges and other con material (if
they had pre-registered), or fill out a form and pay for a membership
at the door.  When registration was not operating, the laptops and
floppies were in a storage area,

And because each laptop had a data disk with its own copy of the
registration database, there were multiple backups by the nature of
the process.  At the end of the convention, the final cpoy of the
registration database was transferred to a server for conversion to
other formats and archival storage.

What you suggest would simply have been more trouble than it was worth.
_
Dennis
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-28 Thread Christopher Evans
100x the cost?  what the cost of a server ? 400. a couple of surplus
laptops at 200 a wifi router for 150 = 750 estimate

--
-chris
Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
http://digitalatoll.com/
http://tawakisoft.com/
Cell: 916-612-6904
Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming






On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:09 AM, mcelha...@usnetizen.com wrote:

 A far superior arrangement for probably 100x the cost. Perhaps the
 convention organizers preferred to spend that money on things that
 were more meaningful to the convention attendees. Or maybe they just
 wanted to keep the money for themselves? Who knows?


 On 5/27/14, Christopher Evans aaxiomfin...@gmail.com wrote:
  I would have implemented WinNT networked laptops running a php
 registration
  signin/signup form in a browser that communicates with central database.
  and allow badge printing by network printer.
 
 
 
 
  --
  -chris
  Computer Consultant  Repair Tech
  Digitalatoll Solutions Group (Tawhaki Software)
  http://digitalatoll.com/
  http://tawakisoft.com/
  Cell: 916-612-6904
  Webpages, Email hosting, Cloud FTP Hosting, and Custom programming
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:14 PM, dmccunney
  dennis.mccun...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
  matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:
 
   So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it is
   nice
   to know it's being used. :)
 
  DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
  annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
  Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
  Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
  ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted from
  a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they swapped
  in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
  registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
  and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
  synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
  database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
  programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
  annoying stuff in DBase III.
 
  I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
  database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals connected
  to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
  networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
  MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several levels
  of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it was
  a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
  was impressed, and said so.
  __
  Dennis
  https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
 
 
 
 --
  Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
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  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
 
 


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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-27 Thread Matej Horvat
If you read the actual article, it was not a problem in DOS or the  
software running on it, but later on:

After the elections are over the results are loaded on a 3.5-inch floppy  
disk and shipped to the canton headquarters where the disks are fed into  
another computer that adds up the votes before sending the results to the  
ministry. It was there that the problem occurred, the spokesman said,  
adding that the votes that ended up on the disks were correct.

So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it is nice  
to know it's being used. :)

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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-27 Thread dmccunney
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:

 So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it is nice
 to know it's being used. :)

DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted from
a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they swapped
in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
annoying stuff in DBase III.

I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals connected
to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several levels
of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it was
a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
was impressed, and said so.
__
Dennis
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

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Re: [Freedos-user] they could change to freedos :P

2014-05-27 Thread Christopher Evans
I would have implemented WinNT networked laptops running a php registration
signin/signup form in a browser that communicates with central database.
and allow badge printing by network printer.




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On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 8:14 PM, dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Matej Horvat
 matej.hor...@guest.arnes.si wrote:

  So the fact that DOS was used is completely irrelevant, though it is nice
  to know it's being used. :)

 DOS pops up in odd places.  In 2006, I attended LACon IV, the 54th
 annual World Science Fiction Convention, held that year in Los
 Angeles, CA.  The Worldcon attracts  about 5,000 attendees.
 Registration for the event was handled in DOS.  They had a batch of
 ancient laptops with a 3.5 floppy drive but no HD.  They booted from
 a DOS floppy, and ran DBase III.  Once DBase was running, they swapped
 in a data disk where registration info was stored as people
 registered.  When registration got busy, they added more registrars
 and handed out more old laptops.  Once an hour or so, they'd do a
 synchronization operation so everyone had a current copy of the
 database.  The registration head who set up the system had been a
 programmer at Ashton-Tate back when, and wrote some of the more
 annoying stuff in DBase III.

 I was tickled.  Most such conventions use networked PCs with the
 database residing on a backend server, or perhaps terminals connected
 to a multi-user server running Linux.  This dispensed with servers,
 networks, and current PCs, using only ancient recycled hardware and
 MS-DOS era software.  It did the job while eliminating several levels
 of complexity and cost.  I told the guy who set it all up that it was
 a perfectly valid approach, and one I would not have thought of.  I
 was impressed, and said so.
 __
 Dennis
 https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519


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 Time is money. Stop wasting it! Get your web API in 5 minutes.
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 Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
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