Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[tom ehlert via Freedos-user]

> On Fri, Nov 3, 2023 at 12:31 PM Ralf Quint via Freedos-user
>  wrote:
>>
>> In which way is "FreeDOS" limited to 2GB sized files? (Sorry, never
>> bothered wit such large files on DOS (any DOS)? The file size entry in
>> the FAT32 directory entry is a 4 byte integer. As a filesize can't be
>> negative, this should be a UINT_32/unsigned long and thus allow for
>> files up to 4GB.
FAT files definitively can't be bigger then 4GB (ignoring FAT+) because the 
'file size field' has only 32 bits.


I am *mostly* sure that 
file size was limited to 2GB in MSDOS < 6.2
file could grow to 4GB if you indicated 'I am aware of signed/unsigned 
problems'
  at file creation/opening time

I am *mostly* sure that 
   FreeDOS just has a 4GB limit.

it's not that complicate to test this - and ascertain or deny this.

as a side note: disks bigger then 1GB just weren't available at MSDOS times.
so this was never a theme.



Tom
 



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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!

I said it before but I'll re-iterate - any filesystem with proper 
journaling would be a total banger. I still remember how Rayman ate my 
FreeDOS and I still have dosfsck in my fdauto as a preventative measure. 
It's slow as molasses in January however. The same program under Linux 
blows it out of the water.


Do you have enough cache (Jack's drivers or lbacache for example)
and enough RAM, and/or made sure that CWSDPMI will not use swap?

See the documentation for CWSDPMI, or try using another DPMI,
such as DOS32A or DPMIONE, to run the DOS version of DOSFSCK.

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Michał Dec via Freedos-user]

Hi,


I'm not entirely sure NT (Win XP etc.) ever supported such a thing atop FAT32 
either (via DOS calls).


Via DOS calls in NT? Not sure. But in ordinary operations, it was as 
normal as pie. I remember pretty well that I had to cut up >4GiB files 
into pieces so that we could transfer them on USB drives back in the day 
to the odd person who used a Mac (no NTFS drivers back then), or to 
someone who still used Windows 98.



Not sure I'd even want exFAT support in FreeDOS, personally. I'd prefer HPFS or 
ext2 instead.


I said it before but I'll re-iterate - any filesystem with proper 
journaling would be a total banger. I still remember how Rayman ate my 
FreeDOS and I still have dosfsck in my fdauto as a preventative measure. 
It's slow as molasses in January however. The same program under Linux 
blows it out of the water.


BR,

Michał

W dniu 04.11.2023 o 01:04, Rugxulo via Freedos-user pisze:

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 3, 2023 at 12:31 PM Ralf Quint via Freedos-user
  wrote:

In which way is "FreeDOS" limited to 2GB sized files? (Sorry, never
bothered wit such large files on DOS (any DOS)? The file size entry in
the FAT32 directory entry is a 4 byte integer. As a filesize can't be
negative, this should be a UINT_32/unsigned long and thus allow for
files up to 4GB.

I'm not exactly sure, but I think 4 GB files were somewhat uncommon
(in DOS programs). And I'm not entirely sure NT (Win XP etc.) ever
supported such a thing atop FAT32 either (via DOS calls).

DJGPP 2.04 "beta" (and 2.05 "current") apps *should* work, but I don't
know for sure (ask Martin Stromberg). I do know that DJGPP's *nix file
utilities like "df" and "du" only use the corresponding FAT32 calls if
the DOS major version is reported as 7.


If the FAT32 enabled file functions of INT 21h do
handle this properly with a unsigned long, any program that does the
same and the programmer of an application didn't get lazy and just
assumes "signed long is big enough for everyone", then this should be a
problem of that application, not FreeDOS.

I believe it's something weird like int 21h, 716Ch is needed to create
the file. (Maybe ecm can chime in, I think we've had this conversation
before.)


If the respective routines in
the FreeDOS kernel do in fact handle the FAT32 file size entry as a
signed long, than this is a bug that needs to be fixed IMHO...

Yes, that's precisely the problem (according to Eric Auer, years ago).


FAT32 is free, but IIRC there a patents problems with other newer formats

FAT32 itself was never patented, it was the long file name format and
handling that was covered by patents, which by now have expired.

As of 2017, yes, supposedly the LFN patents are expired. The main
problem with LFNs (besides the fact that you don't *need* them half
the time) is that the DOS drivers (e.g. DOSLFN) are super slow.


exFAT is  not really an extension like FAT12->FAT16->FAT32 where and doesn't
have such limitations, just doesn't have all that journal stuff that is
included in NTFS, which has become the standard file system ever since
Windows 2000 (and Microsoft intentionally limits the use/format of FAT32
partitions larger than 32GB).

Not sure I'd even want exFAT support in FreeDOS, personally. I'd
prefer HPFS or ext2 instead.


Disk size limit should be 8TB, just like with any other FAT32 implementation.

I still occasionally use a 128 GB USB jump drive with (only) FreeDOS
(FAT32) installed on my old (2010) Dell laptop without any obvious
problems. Granted, that's an older install (older 2041 kernel, older
stable shell 0.84-pre2 XMS_Swap).

In recent months I was writing a lot of Pascal code (ISO 7185 but 99%
TP compatible so that a simple script will let it compile either way).
But none of that needed large files at all. (I also typically test
atop a 200 MB FAT16 RAM disk.)


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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Rugxulo via Freedos-user]

Hi,

On Fri, Nov 3, 2023 at 12:31 PM Ralf Quint via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> In which way is "FreeDOS" limited to 2GB sized files? (Sorry, never
> bothered wit such large files on DOS (any DOS)? The file size entry in
> the FAT32 directory entry is a 4 byte integer. As a filesize can't be
> negative, this should be a UINT_32/unsigned long and thus allow for
> files up to 4GB.

I'm not exactly sure, but I think 4 GB files were somewhat uncommon
(in DOS programs). And I'm not entirely sure NT (Win XP etc.) ever
supported such a thing atop FAT32 either (via DOS calls).

DJGPP 2.04 "beta" (and 2.05 "current") apps *should* work, but I don't
know for sure (ask Martin Stromberg). I do know that DJGPP's *nix file
utilities like "df" and "du" only use the corresponding FAT32 calls if
the DOS major version is reported as 7.

> If the FAT32 enabled file functions of INT 21h do
> handle this properly with a unsigned long, any program that does the
> same and the programmer of an application didn't get lazy and just
> assumes "signed long is big enough for everyone", then this should be a
> problem of that application, not FreeDOS.

I believe it's something weird like int 21h, 716Ch is needed to create
the file. (Maybe ecm can chime in, I think we've had this conversation
before.)

> If the respective routines in
> the FreeDOS kernel do in fact handle the FAT32 file size entry as a
> signed long, than this is a bug that needs to be fixed IMHO...

Yes, that's precisely the problem (according to Eric Auer, years ago).

> > FAT32 is free, but IIRC there a patents problems with other newer formats
> FAT32 itself was never patented, it was the long file name format and
> handling that was covered by patents, which by now have expired.

As of 2017, yes, supposedly the LFN patents are expired. The main
problem with LFNs (besides the fact that you don't *need* them half
the time) is that the DOS drivers (e.g. DOSLFN) are super slow.

> exFAT is  not really an extension like FAT12->FAT16->FAT32 where and doesn't
> have such limitations, just doesn't have all that journal stuff that is
> included in NTFS, which has become the standard file system ever since
> Windows 2000 (and Microsoft intentionally limits the use/format of FAT32
> partitions larger than 32GB).

Not sure I'd even want exFAT support in FreeDOS, personally. I'd
prefer HPFS or ext2 instead.

> Disk size limit should be 8TB, just like with any other FAT32 implementation.

I still occasionally use a 128 GB USB jump drive with (only) FreeDOS
(FAT32) installed on my old (2010) Dell laptop without any obvious
problems. Granted, that's an older install (older 2041 kernel, older
stable shell 0.84-pre2 XMS_Swap).

In recent months I was writing a lot of Pascal code (ISO 7185 but 99%
TP compatible so that a simple script will let it compile either way).
But none of that needed large files at all. (I also typically test
atop a 200 MB FAT16 RAM disk.)


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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Ralf Quint via Freedos-user]

On 11/3/2023 5:55 AM, Alain Mouette via Freedos-user wrote:

Hi, I would like to clarify some things:

FreeDOS is limited to 2Gb files, some special programs can use 4Gb 
(full 32 bits sector number) but it is not the norm.
In which way is "FreeDOS" limited to 2GB sized files? (Sorry, never 
bothered wit such large files on DOS (any DOS)? The file size entry in 
the FAT32 directory entry is a 4 byte integer. As a filesize can't be 
negative, this should be a UINT_32/unsigned long and thus allow for 
files up to 4GB. If the FAT32 enabled file functions of INT 21h do 
handle this properly with a unsigned long, any program that does the 
same and the programmer of an application didn't get lazy and just 
assumes "signed long is big enough for everyone", then this should be a 
problem of that application, not FreeDOS. If the respective routines in 
the FreeDOS kernel do in fact handle the FAT32 file size entry as a 
signed long, than this is a bug that needs to be fixed IMHO...


FAT32 is free, but IIRC there a patents problems with other newer formats
FAT32 itself was never patented, it was the long file name format and 
handling that was covered by patents, which by now have expired. exFAT 
is  not really an extension like FAT12->FAT16->FAT32 where and doesn't 
have such limitations, just doesn't have all that journal stuff that is 
included in NTFS, which has become the standard file system ever since 
Windows 2000 (and Microsoft intentionally limits the use/format of FAT32 
partitions larger than 32GB).


Disk size is not a problem, I have routinely installed very big 
partitions and FreeDOS can handle that just fine. Remember that 
FerrDOS has evolved a lot over time. 


Disk size limit should be 8TB, just like with any other FAT32 
implementation.



Ralf




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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question / Sound in DOS and FAT huge file support

[Michał Dec via Freedos-user]

Hi,

Isn't HX that unfinished DOS extender from 15 years ago that wanted to 
make it possible to run Windows-only binaries on DOS, and had some 
success in that field?


BR,

Michał

W dniu 03.11.2023 o 18:14, Joao Silva via Freedos-user pisze:

Hi!
HX DOS Extender work with dos games that require speaker (beep)?

Last time i tryed with a eeepc and nothings.

Thanks

On Thu, Nov 2, 2023 at 5:15 AM Mart Zirnask via Freedos-user 
 wrote:


On 01/11/2023, Eric Auer via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> It should be possible to use MPXPLAY to get DOS sound
> with modern hardware: https://mpxplay.sourceforge.net/

I can confirm that MPXPLAY may work out of the box with Intel HDA.
Tested on a Dell Mini 9, which has the Realtek ALC268 card.
Played back mp3 and also a 24bit 48kHz wav file flawlessly on SvarDOS.

(In case there's no sound from speakers, read about the "-scc"  flag
in docs/FAQ.txt. The documentation is comprehensive and great.)

Really happy about all this, since a minor part of my work includes
using at least 24-bit audio. Hoping to cobble together some
mpxplay-based script for wav slicing now -- for Getting To Do More
Real Work In Actual DOS, yay. :)

Will try 32-bit wav with mpxplay soon as well.

Haven't tested sbemu, but here are some more projects for HDA and-or
AC97 support on DOS (haven't tried any of these either):

- HX DOS Extender 2.17+ added HDA support in 2016:

http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=14645=0=time=0



- VSBHDA, a recent dosemu fork:
https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/VSBHDA

- A bare metal wav player (not TSR) and HDA status controller:
https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/HDAutils

- "micro or nano" extender with an example for HDA playback:
https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/DOS32pae

- An AC97 wav player: https://github.com/volkertb/ich2player

- ICH sound driver development: https://github.com/volkertb/ail32-ich

Best,
Mart


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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question / Sound in DOS and FAT huge file support

[Joao Silva via Freedos-user]

Hi!
HX DOS Extender work with dos games that require speaker (beep)?

Last time i tryed with a eeepc and nothings.

Thanks

On Thu, Nov 2, 2023 at 5:15 AM Mart Zirnask via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> On 01/11/2023, Eric Auer via Freedos-user
>  wrote:
> >
> > It should be possible to use MPXPLAY to get DOS sound
> > with modern hardware: https://mpxplay.sourceforge.net/
>
> I can confirm that MPXPLAY may work out of the box with Intel HDA.
> Tested on a Dell Mini 9, which has the Realtek ALC268 card.
> Played back mp3 and also a 24bit 48kHz wav file flawlessly on SvarDOS.
>
> (In case there's no sound from speakers, read about the "-scc"  flag
> in docs/FAQ.txt. The documentation is comprehensive and great.)
>
> Really happy about all this, since a minor part of my work includes
> using at least 24-bit audio. Hoping to cobble together some
> mpxplay-based script for wav slicing now -- for Getting To Do More
> Real Work In Actual DOS, yay. :)
>
> Will try 32-bit wav with mpxplay soon as well.
>
> Haven't tested sbemu, but here are some more projects for HDA and-or
> AC97 support on DOS (haven't tried any of these either):
>
> - HX DOS Extender 2.17+ added HDA support in 2016:
>
> http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=14645=0=time=0
>
> - VSBHDA, a recent dosemu fork:
> https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/VSBHDA
>
> - A bare metal wav player (not TSR) and HDA status controller:
> https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/HDAutils
>
> - "micro or nano" extender with an example for HDA playback:
> https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/DOS32pae
>
> - An AC97 wav player: https://github.com/volkertb/ich2player
>
> - ICH sound driver development: https://github.com/volkertb/ail32-ich
>
> Best,
> Mart
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Alain Mouette via Freedos-user]

Hi, I would like to clarify some things:

FreeDOS is limited to 2Gb files, some special programs can use 4Gb (full 
32 bits sector number) but it is not the norm.


FAT32 is free, but IIRC there a patents problems with other newer formats

Disk size is not a problem, I have routinely installed very big 
partitions and FreeDOS can handle that just fine. Remember that FerrDOS 
has evolved a lot over time.


Alain

On 11/2/23 16:53, Rugxulo via Freedos-user wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 2:55 PM Michał Dec via Freedos-user
 wrote:

Do you know maybe where do these limits come from?

I thought it should be 4GiB for both since this is the file size limit
for FAT32.

IIRC, FAT16 in something like classic MS-DOS 6.22 supports max ~65000
files and 2 GB max file size and 2 GB max partition size. (But you can
have four primary partitions.)

FreeDOS supports FAT32 of much larger partition (2 TB?) and 2 GB max per file.


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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Rugxulo via Freedos-user]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 2:55 PM Michał Dec via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> Do you know maybe where do these limits come from?
>
> I thought it should be 4GiB for both since this is the file size limit
> for FAT32.

IIRC, FAT16 in something like classic MS-DOS 6.22 supports max ~65000
files and 2 GB max file size and 2 GB max partition size. (But you can
have four primary partitions.)

FreeDOS supports FAT32 of much larger partition (2 TB?) and 2 GB max per file.


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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question / Sound in DOS and FAT huge file support

[Mart Zirnask via Freedos-user]

On 01/11/2023, Eric Auer via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> It should be possible to use MPXPLAY to get DOS sound
> with modern hardware: https://mpxplay.sourceforge.net/

I can confirm that MPXPLAY may work out of the box with Intel HDA.
Tested on a Dell Mini 9, which has the Realtek ALC268 card.
Played back mp3 and also a 24bit 48kHz wav file flawlessly on SvarDOS.

(In case there's no sound from speakers, read about the "-scc"  flag
in docs/FAQ.txt. The documentation is comprehensive and great.)

Really happy about all this, since a minor part of my work includes
using at least 24-bit audio. Hoping to cobble together some
mpxplay-based script for wav slicing now -- for Getting To Do More
Real Work In Actual DOS, yay. :)

Will try 32-bit wav with mpxplay soon as well.

Haven't tested sbemu, but here are some more projects for HDA and-or
AC97 support on DOS (haven't tried any of these either):

- HX DOS Extender 2.17+ added HDA support in 2016:
http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=14645=0=time=0

- VSBHDA, a recent dosemu fork: https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/VSBHDA

- A bare metal wav player (not TSR) and HDA status controller:
https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/HDAutils

- "micro or nano" extender with an example for HDA playback:
https://github.com/Baron-von-Riedesel/DOS32pae

- An AC97 wav player: https://github.com/volkertb/ich2player

- ICH sound driver development: https://github.com/volkertb/ail32-ich

Best,
Mart


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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question / Sound in DOS and FAT huge file support

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!


You use to promote MSdos 7.1. Have you ever found
a way to get sound on it.


Sound, network and graphics are not related to DOS as
operating system: Because the kernel does not support
those, the applications, not the operating system, are
the ones who have to support it. This also means that
apps with support for those will have support for them
on all versions and brands of DOS.

It should be possible to use MPXPLAY to get DOS sound
with modern hardware: https://mpxplay.sourceforge.net/

It might even be possible to get old games which expect
ISA SoundBlaster hardware to work on modern hardware
with the help of SBEMU or DOSBOX-X. Those have drivers
for modern sound chips (AC97 and HDA standard, I guess)
and provide simulations of old SoundBlaster soundcards:

https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=20131=0=time=0

https://dosbox-x.com/

I have never tested those two myself, so I would love
to hear from others how well they work :-)


I deleted a command called KILL on it. Do you know
what that command does because I don't?


It might be for killing tasks. DOS itself does not
support multitasking, but MS DOS 7 is the DOS which
ships with Windows 95 and 98, so maybe it simply is
a Windows command line tool to stop Windows tasks.


I love the large file size that it supports. Freedos
is limited to 2 gigs and PCdos stops a 8 gigs.


It would surprise me if PC DOS supports 8 GB files.
Technically, the bottlenecks are the ability to seek
and the file size. For relative seek, you can only
go +/- 2 GB from the current point. Absolute seeks
could be defined as 0 to 4 GB from the start or the
end of a file. A flag when opening/creating a file
with int 21.6c determines whether int 21.42 seeks
should work 2 GB style or 4 GB style for that file.

According to our kernel source code at
https://github.com/FDOS/kernel/blob/master/kernel/dosfns.c
FreeDOS does not yet support 4 GB file open and seek!

But it does treat dirent.dir_size as ULONG, max 4 GB.

The file size can be up to 4 GB on FAT filesystems,
but one could check the cluster chain length or put
a few extra bits somewhere in the directory entries?

I do not know which DOS and Windows brands support
such extensions for FAT filesystems, but I think
EDR-DOS is one of the brands working on this and
proposing an interface for it?

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Michał Dec via Freedos-user]

Do you know maybe where do these limits come from?

I thought it should be 4GiB for both since this is the file size limit 
for FAT32.


Best regards,

Michał Dec

W dniu 01.11.2023 o 21:33, Dale E Sterner via Freedos-user pisze:

You use to promote MSdos 7.1. Have you ever found
a way to get sound on it.
I deleted a command called KILL on it. Do you know
what that command does because I don't?
I love the large file size that it supports. Freedos is
limited to 2 gigs and PCdos stops a 8 gigs.


cheers
DS


On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user
 writes:

Thanks Eric,
you are a prince.
Karen



On Tue, 31 Oct 2023, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:


Hi! According to



https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/te
st/report.html

you can download



http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/unst
able/archiver/p7zip.zip

for 7zip. Regards, Eric




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**
 From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***



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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user]

sound..in what way?
If you are using the install package, it includes  sound drivers.
Will need more specifics, i. e. you have a sound card that is not working 
how?

Kare



On Wed, 1 Nov 2023, Dale E Sterner via Freedos-user wrote:


You use to promote MSdos 7.1. Have you ever found
a way to get sound on it.
I deleted a command called KILL on it. Do you know
what that command does because I don't?
I love the large file size that it supports. Freedos is
limited to 2 gigs and PCdos stops a 8 gigs.


cheers
DS


On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user
 writes:

Thanks Eric,
you are a prince.
Karen



On Tue, 31 Oct 2023, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:



Hi! According to





https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/te
st/report.html


you can download





http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/unst
able/archiver/p7zip.zip


for 7zip. Regards, Eric




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**
From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***



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Re: [Freedos-user] MSdos 7.1 question

[Dale E Sterner via Freedos-user]

You use to promote MSdos 7.1. Have you ever found
a way to get sound on it.
I deleted a command called KILL on it. Do you know
what that command does because I don't?
I love the large file size that it supports. Freedos is
limited to 2 gigs and PCdos stops a 8 gigs.


cheers
DS


On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 19:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user
 writes:
> Thanks Eric,
> you are a prince.
> Karen
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi! According to
> >
> > 
>
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/te
st/report.html
> >
> > you can download
> >
> > 
>
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/unst
able/archiver/p7zip.zip
> >
> > for 7zip. Regards, Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Freedos-user mailing list
> > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> >
> >
> 
> 
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***



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