Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Tangentially related, but a system called lEET/OS has been linked here and there recently: "a graphical shell and partially posix-compliant multitasking operating environment that runs on top of a DOS kernel. /.../ lEEt/OS is slowly but surely migrating from FreeDOS to ST-DOS, its own DOS kernel." http://sininenankka.dy.fi/~sami/fdshell/index.php So it's a separate system, a Beta at this point, but nonetheless interesting (also considering a possible toy project of my own :). A video on the multitasking in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fInrnUvrVgQ Best, Mart On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 16:46, Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user wrote: > > Hello everyone. I have found this utility. It doesn't seem to work with > Freedos. The application starts but the configuration file not work. Probably > can't find any ms-dos files. > > A utility of this type would be interesting for Freedos. > > https://vetusware.com/download/PC-Mix/?id=8992 > > In any case, I am happy with SideKick's solution. > > Thanks all. > > Thanks Freedos !!! > > Ramon Riera > > El jue, 11 abr 2024 a las 19:39, Ramon Riera Marès () > escribió: >> >> Dear Liam and Tomas. >> >> Well, I'll be a good boy and won't do it anymore. The topic of hallucinating >> gives me a bad feeling. >> >> But searching I found the Pc-mix utility that if it works with Freedos we >> will have "Human Hallucination" :-) >> >> Today I will try it with Freedos. >> >> Thanks and regards, >> >> Ramón Riera >> >> El jue, 11 abr 2024 a las 14:33, Tomas By via Freedos-user >> () escribió: >>> >>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:10:24 +0200, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote: >>> > LLM bots are not "AI", they are marketing BS. >>> >>> True. >>> >>> > [...] and they emit total nonsense >>> >>> Well, not always. It's like 50/50. >>> >>> /Tomas >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Freedos-user mailing list >>> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Hello everyone. I have found this utility. It doesn't seem to work with Freedos. The application starts but the configuration file not work. Probably can't find any ms-dos files. A utility of this type would be interesting for Freedos. https://vetusware.com/download/PC-Mix/?id=8992 In any case, I am happy with SideKick's solution. Thanks all. Thanks Freedos !!! Ramon Riera El jue, 11 abr 2024 a las 19:39, Ramon Riera Marès () escribió: > Dear Liam and Tomas. > > Well, I'll be a good boy and won't do it anymore. The topic of > hallucinating gives me a bad feeling. > > But searching I found the Pc-mix utility that if it works with Freedos we > will have "Human Hallucination" :-) > > Today I will try it with Freedos. > > Thanks and regards, > > Ramón Riera > > El jue, 11 abr 2024 a las 14:33, Tomas By via Freedos-user (< > freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net>) escribió: > >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:10:24 +0200, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote: >> > LLM bots are not "AI", they are marketing BS. >> >> True. >> >> > [...] and they emit total nonsense >> >> Well, not always. It's like 50/50. >> >> /Tomas >> >> >> ___ >> Freedos-user mailing list >> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user >> > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Dear Liam and Tomas. Well, I'll be a good boy and won't do it anymore. The topic of hallucinating gives me a bad feeling. But searching I found the Pc-mix utility that if it works with Freedos we will have "Human Hallucination" :-) Today I will try it with Freedos. Thanks and regards, Ramón Riera El jue, 11 abr 2024 a las 14:33, Tomas By via Freedos-user (< freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net>) escribió: > On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:10:24 +0200, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote: > > LLM bots are not "AI", they are marketing BS. > > True. > > > [...] and they emit total nonsense > > Well, not always. It's like 50/50. > > /Tomas > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 14:10:24 +0200, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote: > LLM bots are not "AI", they are marketing BS. True. > [...] and they emit total nonsense Well, not always. It's like 50/50. /Tomas ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 13:30, Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user wrote: > > I asked AI Gemini and he answered me this: Do not do this. LLM bots are not "AI", they are marketing BS. They do not and cannot think, reason, or know anything. They are very fancy predictive text tools and they emit total nonsense -- such as this. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Sorry Thanks Jim. El mié., 10 abr. 2024 16:38, Ramon Riera Marès escribió: > Thanks Paul, Liam, Andrew, Kim. > > For the moment I will use SideKick which allows me to use the outliner > software and the SideKick editor. Although I also use Linux, I am a happy > Freedos user because I boot from my USB in a second and I am working in two > seconds. This does not happen with Linux or with any other OS that I know. > > Greetings and thanks again. > > Ramón Riera > > El mié., 10 abr. 2024 16:09, Jim Hall via Freedos-user < > freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> escribió: > >> > Ramon Riera Marès wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and >> collaborators. I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to >> have >> > >> > two applications running, for example an outliner and a text >> editor, and be able to switch from one to the other without having to >> > >> > exit the current application. Thanks and regards. Ramon Riera. >> > >> >> >> Paul and Liam both mentioned DESQview, which was a popular >> multitasking system on MS-DOS in the 1990s. I haven't tried it with >> FreeDOS, so I can't comment how well it works or if it uses MS-DOS >> features that aren't in FreeDOS. >> >> I'll add that MS-DOS also had a "task swapping" feature in DOSSHELL >> that was pretty neat. That feature showed up in MS-DOS 5 (1991) and I >> used it all the time when I was a university student. My typical use >> case was swapping between a word processor and a spreadsheet, such as >> when I wrote my physics lab reports. >> >> An archive of the Microsoft Knowledgebase article about it is copied here: >> https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/071/Q71870/ >> >> >> ___ >> Freedos-user mailing list >> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user >> > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Thanks Paul, Liam, Andrew, Kim. For the moment I will use SideKick which allows me to use the outliner software and the SideKick editor. Although I also use Linux, I am a happy Freedos user because I boot from my USB in a second and I am working in two seconds. This does not happen with Linux or with any other OS that I know. Greetings and thanks again. Ramón Riera El mié., 10 abr. 2024 16:09, Jim Hall via Freedos-user < freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> escribió: > > Ramon Riera Marès wrote: > > >> > > >> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and > collaborators. I want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to > have > > >> > two applications running, for example an outliner and a text > editor, and be able to switch from one to the other without having to > > >> > exit the current application. Thanks and regards. Ramon Riera. > > > > > Paul and Liam both mentioned DESQview, which was a popular > multitasking system on MS-DOS in the 1990s. I haven't tried it with > FreeDOS, so I can't comment how well it works or if it uses MS-DOS > features that aren't in FreeDOS. > > I'll add that MS-DOS also had a "task swapping" feature in DOSSHELL > that was pretty neat. That feature showed up in MS-DOS 5 (1991) and I > used it all the time when I was a university student. My typical use > case was swapping between a word processor and a spreadsheet, such as > when I wrote my physics lab reports. > > An archive of the Microsoft Knowledgebase article about it is copied here: > https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/071/Q71870/ > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
> Ramon Riera Marès wrote: > >> > >> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators. I > >> > want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have > >> > two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, > >> > and be able to switch from one to the other without having to > >> > exit the current application. Thanks and regards. Ramon Riera. > Paul and Liam both mentioned DESQview, which was a popular multitasking system on MS-DOS in the 1990s. I haven't tried it with FreeDOS, so I can't comment how well it works or if it uses MS-DOS features that aren't in FreeDOS. I'll add that MS-DOS also had a "task swapping" feature in DOSSHELL that was pretty neat. That feature showed up in MS-DOS 5 (1991) and I used it all the time when I was a university student. My typical use case was swapping between a word processor and a spreadsheet, such as when I wrote my physics lab reports. An archive of the Microsoft Knowledgebase article about it is copied here: https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/071/Q71870/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
>>
>> > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators. I
>> > want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have
>> > two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and
>> > be able to switch from one to the other without having to
>> > exit the current application. Thanks and regards. Ramon Riera.
Paul Dufresne wrote:
>>
[..]
>> There was a program, DESKVIEW, that was making an OS that was reentrant...
>> as far as I understand,
>> that was running over a DOS. Making it easy to have more than one program
>> running at a time.
>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview
[..]
>
Ramon Riera Marès wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul.
>
> I asked AI Gemini and he answered me this:
>
> Question:
>
> Is there any utility in freedos that allows me to run two programs
> at the same time?
>
> Gemini answers:
>
> Yes, there are some utilities in FreeDOS that allow you to run two
> programs at the same time:
>
> 1. TCC:
>
> It is a command-line shell that allows you to execute multiple commands
> in a single line.
>
> You can use TCC to run two programs at the same time using the &
> command.
>
> For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the
> same time, you would run the following command:
>
> calc & notepad
>
> The & command tells TCC to run the following command in the background.
>
This is describing the Take Command ("TCC") CMD shell drop-in
replacement for Windows systems, not DOS:
https://jpsoft.com/products/tcc.html
The only "TCC" programs for DOS that come to mind are Borland's Turbo
C Compiler and the Tiny C Compiler.
> 2. 4DOS:
>
> It is a DOS shell that allows you to run multiple programs in a
> single session.
>
> You can use 4DOS to run two programs at the same time using the
> START command.
>
> For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the
> same time, you would run the following command:
>
> START calc START notepad
>
> The START command starts a new program in a separate window.
I was not aware of this feature in 4DOS. In fact, the START command is
not listed in this copy of the 4DOS manual from 1991:
https://bitsavers.org/pdf/jpsoftware/4DOS_Reference_Manual.pdf
The command reference in the back of the manual goes from "SHIFT" (p.
285) to "SWAPPING" (p. 286). In the Index at the end of the manual, it
goes from "Standard output device" (p. 349) to "Startup options" (p.
350) to "StdColors directive (p. 350). So a "START" command isn't
listed anywhere.
4DOS has a "4START" but that is the name of a batch file
("4START.BTM") that runs whenever you start 4DOS, to set the
environment, colors, etc. But that's not the same as the "START"
command listed here.
Also: the way the "START" sample command line is organized, there is
nothing to suggest to the shell where the two commands should be
divided .. or should it run the command "calc" with the possibly valid
options (such as filenames) of "START" and "notepad"?
Also Also: "..in a separate window" should suggest that this is not
referring to a DOS environment, which doesn't run programs in
"windows."
> 3. W4DOS:
>
> It is a graphical desktop environment for FreeDOS.
>
> You can use W4DOS to run two programs at the same time by opening
> two different windows.
>
> To open a new window, click the "Start" button and then select "Run."
>
> In the "Run" dialog box, type the name of the program you want to run,
> and then click "OK."
"W4DOS" isn't familiar to me, and I wasn't able to find any graphical
desktop environment for DOS called "W4DOS." I don't think this one
exists either.
[..]
> --
>
> Does anyone have experience with these utilities? Which is the
> simplest?
>
I think you have experienced what is known as "AI Hallucination" where
the AI just makes stuff up. I'm afraid that is a problem with
generative AI. I find that generative AI is usually "ok" to "pretty
good" with summarizing current topics, but generally very poor in
describing things that are edge cases like FreeDOS or FORTRAN. (I
experimented with Bard before it was renamed "Gemini," and did
substantial testing with ChatGPT.)
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Re: [Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Thanks Paul. I asked AI Gemini and he answered me this: Question: Is there any utility in freedos that allows me to run two programs at the same time? Gemini answers: Yes, there are some utilities in FreeDOS that allow you to run two programs at the same time: 1. TCC: It is a command-line shell that allows you to execute multiple commands in a single line. You can use TCC to run two programs at the same time using the & command. For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the same time, you would run the following command: calc & notepad The & command tells TCC to run the following command in the background. 2. 4DOS: It is a DOS shell that allows you to run multiple programs in a single session. You can use 4DOS to run two programs at the same time using the START command. For example, to run the calc program and the notepad program at the same time, you would run the following command: START calc START notepad The START command starts a new program in a separate window. 3. W4DOS: It is a graphical desktop environment for FreeDOS. You can use W4DOS to run two programs at the same time by opening two different windows. To open a new window, click the "Start" button and then select "Run." In the "Run" dialog box, type the name of the program you want to run, and then click "OK." Tool choice: The best tool for you will depend on your needs and preferences. If you need a simple way to run two programs at the same time, TCC is a good option. If you need a more flexible way to run two programs at the same time, 4DOS is a good option. If you want to run two programs at the same time in a graphical environment, W4DOS is a good option. -- Does anyone have experience with these utilities? Which is the simplest? Thanks and regards, Ramón Riera El mié., 10 abr. 2024 13:21, Paul Dufresne escribió: > Le mer., 10 avr. 2024 06:33:38 -0400 Ramon Riera Marès via > Freedos-user a écrit > > > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators. I > want to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have > > two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, > and be able to switch from one to the other without having to > > exit the current application. Thanks and regards. Ramon Riera. > > It is possible, but very hard to write, because DOS is not reentrant: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reentrancy_(computing) > > DOS have a call to quit a program, but leaving it in memory Terminate > Stay Resident (TSR). > But such programs must respect special rules to avoid DOS to crash. > > There was a program, DESKVIEW, that was making an OS that was reentrant... > as far as I understand, > that was running over a DOS. Making it easy to have more than one program > running at a time. > See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview > > I don't know how hard it would be to make FreeDOS reentrant... or what was > the recent infos as > I am mostly basing the info I give here to what I learns in the nineties. > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Ré : Way or utility in Freedos to have two applications running
Le mer., 10 avr. 2024 06:33:38 -0400 Ramon Riera Marès via Freedos-user a écrit > First of all, thanks to all the Freedos developers and collaborators. I want > to know if there is any way or utility in Freedos to have > two applications running, for example an outliner and a text editor, and be > able to switch from one to the other without having to > exit the current application. Thanks and regards. Ramon Riera. It is possible, but very hard to write, because DOS is not reentrant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reentrancy_(computing) DOS have a call to quit a program, but leaving it in memory Terminate Stay Resident (TSR). But such programs must respect special rules to avoid DOS to crash. There was a program, DESKVIEW, that was making an OS that was reentrant... as far as I understand, that was running over a DOS. Making it easy to have more than one program running at a time. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview I don't know how hard it would be to make FreeDOS reentrant... or what was the recent infos as I am mostly basing the info I give here to what I learns in the nineties. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
