Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[Frank Wimberly]

The student should focus on the word danger, which the Lab Tech should have
used.  I politely ignore bad advice.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 4:43 PM Eric Charles 
wrote:

> Frank,  let's run with that!
>
> Assuming it was stupid to bring up atoms, how SHOULD the student respond?
> Verbally and behaviorally?
>
> How do you typically respond to stupid advice? :- )
>
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:19 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> My conclusion:  the Lab Tech was dumb for mentioning atoms.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 3:21 PM Eric Charles <
>> eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Two preliminaries:
>>> 1) For what it's worth, I am trying to back Nick into a different corner
>>> than the one Mike thinks I am but Mike is correct in seeing that I
>>> don't want to let Nick weasel out of the confrontation. It is perfectly
>>> valid for Nick to point out that he is proud of any student who takes
>>> *anything *from one course to another, but that doesn't speak to
>>> whether he would be happy or not seeing this particular interaction play
>>> out due to the effects of his teaching.
>>>
>>> 2) Both Mike and Nick want to read into the lab tech something I was
>>> exactly excluding from the lab tech's reaction - a sophisticated
>>> understanding of the situation that matches what they would like to have a
>>> student glean from their classrooms. In the email I am currently replying
>>> to, Nick says something like "I don't recognize the student as saying what
>>> I would say" and to that I reply "Exactly!" The student isn't a stand in
>>> for you, they are a person your teachings have significantly influenced.
>>> The student, *like you*, doesn't see the role that "real" or "fact" play in
>>> the conversation, and *like you* any hint of "essentialism", especially
>>> connected with something that sounds like a crude "materialism", makes her
>>> scoff.
>>>
>>> The basics of the initial scenario are:
>>> A lab tech is giving a safety warning. The student, rather than
>>> complying with that warning, tries to initiate a conversation about how the
>>> words used in the warning make it seem like maybe the lab tech could learn
>>> a thing or two about philosophy from Dr. Thompson (a typical
>>> sophomoric-sophomore way to respond). The lab tech doesn't give a shit
>>> about any of that, and reiterates the safety warning, elaborating it in
>>> ways that make sense *to him* by adding in words like "fact" and "atoms".
>>> The student scoffs even harder now, because this poor fellow can't even
>>> understand that she is trying to help him learn how to think better. As you
>>> listen in the hall, the student's responses might not be *exactly* what you
>>> would say in her place, but it is obvious that she is *trying* to do the
>>> type of conversation you modeled in your class, and that what is happening
>>> is due to your influence as an instructor. The culmination of the back and
>>> forth is that, because the student is doing everything other than complying
>>> with the warning, the lab tech - in his role as the person charged with
>>> maintaining lab safety - kicks her out of the chemistry lab.
>>>
>>> And the basic questions to Nick were:
>>> How do you feel witnessing that? Proud, worried, confused? Does it sound
>>> like the student was getting the message you intended, or has the intended
>>> message gone awry?
>>>
>>> In the second version, I tried to make the culmination of the
>>> interaction even more extreme, so that the key aspect of the interaction -
>>> that the student was responding to a safety warning by talking philosophy -
>>> was even more obvious. As the conversation continues, the increasingly
>>> exasperated lab tech brings in more and more potentially-irrelevant terms
>>> and concepts for the student to smugly nit pick, until eventually the
>>> thing-being-warned-about actually occurs and several people are grievously
>>> injured.
>>>
>>> How was I hoping Nick would respond? I was hoping it would look
>>> something like this:
>>> 1) No, I would *not *be happy if I overheard that interaction.
>>> 2) She misunderstood X and/or she apparently didn't grok the part where
>>> I explained Y.
>>> 3) If I had done a better job in the classroom, she would have cared
>>> about understanding what his warning meant in terms of practice. (And I
>>> imagine anything that Nick adds to illustrate this point would lines up
>>> pretty well with Mike's dialog.)
>>>
>>> If Nick has finally wrapped his head around the scene being played out,
>>> I still want to hear from him what X and/or Y are. GIVEN that the student
>>> seems to have a reasonable - if imperfect - understanding of the
>>> conversational side of things, i.e., given that the student is saying
>>> things to the Lab Tech that are very close to what you (Nick) 

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[Eric Charles]

Frank,  let's run with that!

Assuming it was stupid to bring up atoms, how SHOULD the student respond?
Verbally and behaviorally?

How do you typically respond to stupid advice? :- )

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:19 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> My conclusion:  the Lab Tech was dumb for mentioning atoms.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 3:21 PM Eric Charles 
> wrote:
>
>> Two preliminaries:
>> 1) For what it's worth, I am trying to back Nick into a different corner
>> than the one Mike thinks I am but Mike is correct in seeing that I
>> don't want to let Nick weasel out of the confrontation. It is perfectly
>> valid for Nick to point out that he is proud of any student who takes
>> *anything *from one course to another, but that doesn't speak to whether
>> he would be happy or not seeing this particular interaction play out due to
>> the effects of his teaching.
>>
>> 2) Both Mike and Nick want to read into the lab tech something I was
>> exactly excluding from the lab tech's reaction - a sophisticated
>> understanding of the situation that matches what they would like to have a
>> student glean from their classrooms. In the email I am currently replying
>> to, Nick says something like "I don't recognize the student as saying what
>> I would say" and to that I reply "Exactly!" The student isn't a stand in
>> for you, they are a person your teachings have significantly influenced.
>> The student, *like you*, doesn't see the role that "real" or "fact" play in
>> the conversation, and *like you* any hint of "essentialism", especially
>> connected with something that sounds like a crude "materialism", makes her
>> scoff.
>>
>> The basics of the initial scenario are:
>> A lab tech is giving a safety warning. The student, rather than complying
>> with that warning, tries to initiate a conversation about how the words
>> used in the warning make it seem like maybe the lab tech could learn a
>> thing or two about philosophy from Dr. Thompson (a typical
>> sophomoric-sophomore way to respond). The lab tech doesn't give a shit
>> about any of that, and reiterates the safety warning, elaborating it in
>> ways that make sense *to him* by adding in words like "fact" and "atoms".
>> The student scoffs even harder now, because this poor fellow can't even
>> understand that she is trying to help him learn how to think better. As you
>> listen in the hall, the student's responses might not be *exactly* what you
>> would say in her place, but it is obvious that she is *trying* to do the
>> type of conversation you modeled in your class, and that what is happening
>> is due to your influence as an instructor. The culmination of the back and
>> forth is that, because the student is doing everything other than complying
>> with the warning, the lab tech - in his role as the person charged with
>> maintaining lab safety - kicks her out of the chemistry lab.
>>
>> And the basic questions to Nick were:
>> How do you feel witnessing that? Proud, worried, confused? Does it sound
>> like the student was getting the message you intended, or has the intended
>> message gone awry?
>>
>> In the second version, I tried to make the culmination of the interaction
>> even more extreme, so that the key aspect of the interaction - that the
>> student was responding to a safety warning by talking philosophy - was even
>> more obvious. As the conversation continues, the increasingly exasperated
>> lab tech brings in more and more potentially-irrelevant terms and concepts
>> for the student to smugly nit pick, until eventually the
>> thing-being-warned-about actually occurs and several people are grievously
>> injured.
>>
>> How was I hoping Nick would respond? I was hoping it would look something
>> like this:
>> 1) No, I would *not *be happy if I overheard that interaction.
>> 2) She misunderstood X and/or she apparently didn't grok the part where I
>> explained Y.
>> 3) If I had done a better job in the classroom, she would have cared
>> about understanding what his warning meant in terms of practice. (And I
>> imagine anything that Nick adds to illustrate this point would lines up
>> pretty well with Mike's dialog.)
>>
>> If Nick has finally wrapped his head around the scene being played out, I
>> still want to hear from him what X and/or Y are. GIVEN that the student
>> seems to have a reasonable - if imperfect - understanding of the
>> conversational side of things, i.e., given that the student is saying
>> things to the Lab Tech that are very close to what you (Nick) would say in
>> the student's place, what exactly is it that she failed to appreciate about
>> the point of view you were presenting?
>> 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 11:51 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Friends,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eric has prompted me to wade into this thread, but I confess I have not
>>> well understood the issues, even from the start.   So much of subsequent
>>> 

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[thompnickson2]

And the student for mentioning pragmatism.  

 

Get those chemicals off the bench, and THEN you can ride your high horses. 

 

That’s the little-p pragmatist in me speaking. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2022 6:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

 

My conclusion:  the Lab Tech was dumb for mentioning atoms.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 3:21 PM Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Two preliminaries:
1) For what it's worth, I am trying to back Nick into a different corner than 
the one Mike thinks I am but Mike is correct in seeing that I don't want to 
let Nick weasel out of the confrontation. It is perfectly valid for Nick to 
point out that he is proud of any student who takes anything from one course to 
another, but that doesn't speak to whether he would be happy or not seeing this 
particular interaction play out due to the effects of his teaching. 

2) Both Mike and Nick want to read into the lab tech something I was exactly 
excluding from the lab tech's reaction - a sophisticated understanding of the 
situation that matches what they would like to have a student glean from their 
classrooms. In the email I am currently replying to, Nick says something like 
"I don't recognize the student as saying what I would say" and to that I reply 
"Exactly!" The student isn't a stand in for you, they are a person your 
teachings have significantly influenced.  The student, *like you*, doesn't see 
the role that "real" or "fact" play in the conversation, and *like you* any 
hint of "essentialism", especially connected with something that sounds like a 
crude "materialism", makes her scoff.  

 

The basics of the initial scenario are: 

A lab tech is giving a safety warning. The student, rather than complying with 
that warning, tries to initiate a conversation about how the words used in the 
warning make it seem like maybe the lab tech could learn a thing or two about 
philosophy from Dr. Thompson (a typical sophomoric-sophomore way to respond). 
The lab tech doesn't give a shit about any of that, and reiterates the safety 
warning, elaborating it in ways that make sense *to him* by adding in words 
like "fact" and "atoms". The student scoffs even harder now, because this poor 
fellow can't even understand that she is trying to help him learn how to think 
better. As you listen in the hall, the student's responses might not be 
*exactly* what you would say in her place, but it is obvious that she is 
*trying* to do the type of conversation you modeled in your class, and that 
what is happening is due to your influence as an instructor. The culmination of 
the back and forth is that, because the student is doing everything other than 
complying with the warning, the lab tech - in his role as the person charged 
with maintaining lab safety - kicks her out of the chemistry lab. 

And the basic questions to Nick were:
How do you feel witnessing that? Proud, worried, confused? Does it sound like 
the student was getting the message you intended, or has the intended message 
gone awry?

In the second version, I tried to make the culmination of the interaction even 
more extreme, so that the key aspect of the interaction - that the student was 
responding to a safety warning by talking philosophy - was even more obvious. 
As the conversation continues, the increasingly exasperated lab tech brings in 
more and more potentially-irrelevant terms and concepts for the student to 
smugly nit pick, until eventually the thing-being-warned-about actually occurs 
and several people are grievously injured.  

 

How was I hoping Nick would respond? I was hoping it would look something like 
this: 

1) No, I would not be happy if I overheard that interaction.
2) She misunderstood X and/or she apparently didn't grok the part where I 
explained Y.
3) If I had done a better job in the classroom, she would have cared about 
understanding what his warning meant in terms of practice. (And I imagine 
anything that Nick adds to illustrate this point would lines up pretty well 
with Mike's dialog.) 


 

If Nick has finally wrapped his head around the scene being played out, I still 
want to hear from him what X and/or Y are. GIVEN that the student seems to have 
a reasonable - if imperfect - understanding of the conversational side of 
things, i.e., given that the student is saying things to the Lab Tech that are 
very close to what you (Nick) would say in the student's place, what exactly is 
it that she failed to appreciate about the point of view you were presenting? 

 

 

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 11:51 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > 

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[Frank Wimberly]

My conclusion:  the Lab Tech was dumb for mentioning atoms.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 3:21 PM Eric Charles 
wrote:

> Two preliminaries:
> 1) For what it's worth, I am trying to back Nick into a different corner
> than the one Mike thinks I am but Mike is correct in seeing that I
> don't want to let Nick weasel out of the confrontation. It is perfectly
> valid for Nick to point out that he is proud of any student who takes
> *anything *from one course to another, but that doesn't speak to whether
> he would be happy or not seeing this particular interaction play out due to
> the effects of his teaching.
>
> 2) Both Mike and Nick want to read into the lab tech something I was
> exactly excluding from the lab tech's reaction - a sophisticated
> understanding of the situation that matches what they would like to have a
> student glean from their classrooms. In the email I am currently replying
> to, Nick says something like "I don't recognize the student as saying what
> I would say" and to that I reply "Exactly!" The student isn't a stand in
> for you, they are a person your teachings have significantly influenced.
> The student, *like you*, doesn't see the role that "real" or "fact" play in
> the conversation, and *like you* any hint of "essentialism", especially
> connected with something that sounds like a crude "materialism", makes her
> scoff.
>
> The basics of the initial scenario are:
> A lab tech is giving a safety warning. The student, rather than complying
> with that warning, tries to initiate a conversation about how the words
> used in the warning make it seem like maybe the lab tech could learn a
> thing or two about philosophy from Dr. Thompson (a typical
> sophomoric-sophomore way to respond). The lab tech doesn't give a shit
> about any of that, and reiterates the safety warning, elaborating it in
> ways that make sense *to him* by adding in words like "fact" and "atoms".
> The student scoffs even harder now, because this poor fellow can't even
> understand that she is trying to help him learn how to think better. As you
> listen in the hall, the student's responses might not be *exactly* what you
> would say in her place, but it is obvious that she is *trying* to do the
> type of conversation you modeled in your class, and that what is happening
> is due to your influence as an instructor. The culmination of the back and
> forth is that, because the student is doing everything other than complying
> with the warning, the lab tech - in his role as the person charged with
> maintaining lab safety - kicks her out of the chemistry lab.
>
> And the basic questions to Nick were:
> How do you feel witnessing that? Proud, worried, confused? Does it sound
> like the student was getting the message you intended, or has the intended
> message gone awry?
>
> In the second version, I tried to make the culmination of the interaction
> even more extreme, so that the key aspect of the interaction - that the
> student was responding to a safety warning by talking philosophy - was even
> more obvious. As the conversation continues, the increasingly exasperated
> lab tech brings in more and more potentially-irrelevant terms and concepts
> for the student to smugly nit pick, until eventually the
> thing-being-warned-about actually occurs and several people are grievously
> injured.
>
> How was I hoping Nick would respond? I was hoping it would look something
> like this:
> 1) No, I would *not *be happy if I overheard that interaction.
> 2) She misunderstood X and/or she apparently didn't grok the part where I
> explained Y.
> 3) If I had done a better job in the classroom, she would have cared about
> understanding what his warning meant in terms of practice. (And I imagine
> anything that Nick adds to illustrate this point would lines up pretty well
> with Mike's dialog.)
>
> If Nick has finally wrapped his head around the scene being played out, I
> still want to hear from him what X and/or Y are. GIVEN that the student
> seems to have a reasonable - if imperfect - understanding of the
> conversational side of things, i.e., given that the student is saying
> things to the Lab Tech that are very close to what you (Nick) would say in
> the student's place, what exactly is it that she failed to appreciate about
> the point of view you were presenting?
> 
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 11:51 PM  wrote:
>
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric has prompted me to wade into this thread, but I confess I have not
>> well understood the issues, even from the start.   So much of subsequent
>> characterization of my position feels so foreign to me that I don’t now how
>> to
>>
>> relate it to what I believe.   As understand the three of us, Mike is
>> trying to represent the True Peirce, I am trying to represent the Peirce
>> position insofar as it is a monist position, and Eric is trying to
>> understand Peirce insofar as he agrees 

Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interuption, for questions about banking apps

[glen]

You're predilections to the CSA and micro-lending are good. But, like you, I 
haven't pulled the trigger on much of that. I am a member of 2 credit unions 
and am a member of Co-Ops for books, beer, and (until they shut down) 
accounting.

This site has a lot of good ideas, many of which you're probably already doing 
to some extent (like composting):

https://ilsr.org/

Most importantly, they (and other organizations) argue for Public Banks. North Dakota is the only 
state that has one. And I've been peripherally advocating for WA to do the same since we moved here 
, as 
well as the push for statewide healthcare 


Not much of that is very practical. If you can't look into someone's face, share 
virus-laden spittle, and press the flesh, then you're guaranteed to be feeding a grifter 
like Uihlein, Cathy, et al, shaving sub-pennies off every transaction then pumping the 
profits into whatever ideological direction they've been hypnotized by. Every chicken 
sandwich you buy  promotes anti-Trans rhetoric. Every 
box of plastic sheeting you buy  routes money to Turning 
Point USA or some other batshit organization.

At least when/if you do business with a small company owned by a right-winger, 
you know less (or none) of that goes to right-wing rhetoric on the internet 
because that person is working too hard to waste time on that stupidity. But, 
whatever. It's a free country ... at least for now.

On 9/30/22 08:53, Steve Smith wrote:


Any thoughts/insight/advice on going even further than a "local bank"? 


--
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Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interuption, for questions about banking apps

[Steve Smith]

On 9/30/22 9:01 AM, glen wrote:
But the real question is: Why are you using BofA? I mean, loads of 
passive investing rent-seekers will *thank* you for allowing them to 
suck money from you into their accounts (2.87% dividends for BAC!). 
Why not use something more local?


Any thoughts/insight/advice on going even further than a "local 
bank"?    I dove in with Los Alamos National Bank when I moved there 
because it seemed to be the epitome of "local".   I had two mortgages 
there which never got sold off to a national (even though they were FHA 
and had that clause).  When I cashed out of LANL I put some of my 
ill-gotten gains into shares in the bank. Even Bank Officers seemed to 
think that was a bad investment.   I did it anyway...  It didn't earn 
(not rent-seekey enough?) but it was no worse than leaving it sitting in 
one of their savings accounts, but maybe worse than a T-bill?


During my last mortgage, they had a big outside investor buy in and 
mortgages started getting sold off, then the whole thing got sold to a 
national (Enterprise).  For the most part, things haven't changed that 
much, *but* I know that some guy dressed and looking exactly like the 
Monopoly Bankster is rubbing his hands and cackling over my tiny 
fraction of a drop in his fat-pockets bucket.  Because he knows that 
"profit by a thousand pennies" works, even though I rarely follow the 
inverse with Franklin's saved/earned aphorism.




   When I finally payed off my final mortgage last year, I got the idea
   that given the low mortgage rates I could re-up with another 30 and
   pay it down monthly (even on an accelerated schedule) from a fund I
   set up for the purpose, gather tax advantages (haven't had those in
   a while with a low mortgage and a raised standard deduction) and
   make a profit off of uncle sam or papi FED or everyone else on the
   planet I wasn't already gouging.   "Rent Seeking" by another name,
   "taking advantage" by an old fashioned one, "doing what everyone
   else does and the system expects of you" by standard parlance, and
   "smart business" to quote DT.

   So I went to my Credit Union where I hadn't held more than a token
   amount for decades (mainly cuz they didn't offer mortgages and their
   customer service was mildly clunky)...   they were happy to give me
   a fully competitive ReFi, just fill out the paperwork!   Somewhere
   in that process I twigged to just how usurious the whole
   gamesmanship was/would-be.  I mean I knew it all along, I just
   followed the "everyone does it" clause above to help ignore it.  Of
   course my spectrum of friends includes people who live virtually
   hand-to-mouth (month to month) and I know *they* don't do it, cuz
   they aint' got nothin' to do it *with*!  Long story short, I
   declined to refinance and (ab)use the homeowner-incentives of the
   'Gov (that I sometimes love to hate on) to arbitrage my blood money.

   On the backlash to that I then went looking around for local
   investment opportunities and found a few local institutions/funds
   that give loans to small, entrepreneurial activities, small-farmers
   in particular.   I'm still looking askance at them as a possible way
   to lower my guilt over the blood money I normally call retirement
   savings that is out there doing my "rent seeking" for me.   I could
   maybe dodecatuple down on the pre-paid CSA with a small organic farm
   I try to support (and depend on for healthy food) and buy them a new
   greenhouse or another 500sq ft of PV to run the fans and well pump
   when the acequia isn't running, and take it back in bumper crop
   (last year they dumped their end-of-season excess my way on several
   crops and I shared and canned and dried and froze) year after year.



So, as I pump my tiny fist at the TV (in encouragement) every time 
Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders or Katie Porter takes some Bankster 
or Oilster or Amazonster or SpaceMogulster to task, I wonder at why I 
haven't moved my ill-gotten gains to the Credit Union?   And why aren't 
credit unions (more) competitive with big fat banks?  I mean in *my 
mind*?  Or am I just too damned lazy to do the research or do the 
transfers and get used to a new "schtick"?


Thanks to Gil and Glen for the reminder that *I* have (yet another) 
tangled bit of karma to tease at here.   Geeze, I think I'll just order 
another widget from Amazon, try to avert my attention.


Carry On,

- SaviorComplexster



On 9/30/22 07:34, Gillian Densmore wrote:
Mmm BofA  for good or ill isdropping brick and mortar banks entirely. 
You can't even do much without finger print id.  On me and my rides 
sides of things going to any bank, even BofA isn't naturally within 
our paths (insert humours pun about traveling salesman and having to 
sale around...ok so that was a stretch)
I would hope that banks encrypt traffic. but then again...they were 
prone oddly specific, deep  things like intercepting traffic by 
there...computer monitors. As 

Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interuption, for questions about banking apps

[glen]

The paper check isn't the important thing anymore. It's the numbers and the 
security features (Microprint, SecurityWeave, etc.). All the exchange happens 
between the institutions. Even signatures don't really matter anymore. So what 
matters about the security between you and the bank is more about your identity 
than it is about your money (which is only a virtual set of virtual numbers). 
How much money you have is socially constructed, purely virtual (even in the 
case of gold buried with your go-bag out in the desert - you do have a go-bag 
buried nearby don't you? 8^D ). But your identity is still somewhat *real*.

I'm too ignorant on the bank-to-bank infrastructure to suggest ways it might be 
compromised. Maybe someone else can add detail there. But the real question is: 
Why are you using BofA? I mean, loads of passive investing rent-seekers will 
*thank* you for allowing them to suck money from you into their accounts (2.87% 
dividends for BAC!). Why not use something more local?

On 9/30/22 07:34, Gillian Densmore wrote:

Mmm BofA  for good or ill isdropping brick and mortar banks entirely. You can't 
even do much without finger print id.  On me and my rides sides of things going 
to any bank, even BofA isn't naturally within our paths (insert humours pun 
about traveling salesman and having to sale around...ok so that was a stretch)
I would hope that banks encrypt traffic. but then again...they were prone oddly 
specific, deep  things like intercepting traffic by there...computer monitors. 
As far as I know that's been patched into the age of the dodo's
I thought because banks use p2p and blockchains for connections that (in 
theory) provided they have a oops fat finger that'd be slightly less risk than 
when a human is in the loop (security wise). Human can  remember user 
passwords, but if a computer is asked to store those in a encrypted DB, not a 
chance short of a massive attack that's problem
But you say the week area is on your cellophane? I have no idea how that works, 
but it's not surprising.
I think fam (ie Mum)  is more concerned about basic user experience. rather 
than deep AF schenigans.  LoL I love my mom, but I made the mistake of pointing 
out that as long as groups like anonymous, poodlesec etc around...don't put 
something on the internet where you'd be super screwed...but theire's
She heard: two parts: Don't put. and screwed. LoL, man I just meant that 
their'd be a spectrum. Me, you(Glen) fam, and i'd guess short of folks on the 
list in redicously deep goverment orgs  or coded NDA, super dooper euphamism 
speach tricks. Just not that important. ie unless your pretty public target? 
not a chance.  But then I also got curius, how exactly do these banking apps do 
deposits by check. What common things go wrong? is security between me and the 
banks good 'nuf?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 8:15 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Well, I'd recommend against doing any banking on your phone, or doing 
anything important with it. But if you must, do it on an exclusive device that 
doesn't automatically send everything to Google or Apple, doesn't automatically 
connect to every coffee shop wifi, etc. Make sure the whole phone is encrypted. 
Don't carry it everywhere *or* have 2 that are cloned so when a skateboarder 
whips by and grabs it out of your hand, you can run home and lock everything 
down with the clone. Use another phone for arbitrary plebe things like selfies 
and Telegram. Use aliases. If they don't know your real name, they can't steal 
your ID.

Or, just don't do anything important on your phone. If it's important, 
there are other, better, ways to do it.

On 9/29/22 17:07, Gillian Densmore wrote:
 > I just recently got more of a proper bank account with BofA after a 
'misshap'  with a cashcard. Keeping it relevant to Friam I think family has some 
umm mmm concerns about data security, and...ok so what they really would like to 
know for using the apps to make deposits by check. is How likely is it for things 
to go sideways and suddenly deets from the check, everyone that might cares knows. 
 I suggested to them: we aren't /that / important. someone like Poodlesec, or 
lolPHPsec isn't going to find me interesting enough to bother. If or when they  
turn a places electric security into the consistency of /dev/null or worse. We're 
so screwed by then anyway.
 > Short of that: what's been folks experience? are they reasonable secure? 
 Personally I'd think i'd be more likely to run into problems from fat fingering 
something. Than a check going poof, but that'd still suck.



--
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Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interuption, for questions about banking apps

[Gillian Densmore]

Mmm BofA  for good or ill isdropping brick and mortar banks entirely. You
can't even do much without finger print id.  On me and my rides sides of
things going to any bank, even BofA isn't naturally within our paths
(insert humours pun about traveling salesman and having to sale around...ok
so that was a stretch)
I would hope that banks encrypt traffic. but then again...they were prone
oddly specific, deep  things like intercepting traffic by there...computer
monitors. As far as I know that's been patched into the age of the dodo's
I thought because banks use p2p and blockchains for connections that (in
theory) provided they have a oops fat finger that'd be slightly less risk
than when a human is in the loop (security wise). Human can  remember
user passwords, but if a computer is asked to store those in a
encrypted DB, not a chance short of a massive attack that's problem
But you say the week area is on your cellophane? I have no idea how that
works, but it's not surprising.
I think fam (ie Mum)  is more concerned about basic user experience. rather
than deep AF schenigans.  LoL I love my mom, but I made the mistake of
pointing out that as long as groups like anonymous, poodlesec etc
around...don't put something on the internet where you'd be super
screwed...but theire's
She heard: two parts: Don't put. and screwed. LoL, man I just meant that
their'd be a spectrum. Me, you(Glen) fam, and i'd guess short of folks on
the list in redicously deep goverment orgs  or coded NDA, super dooper
euphamism speach tricks. Just not that important. ie unless your pretty
public target? not a chance.  But then I also got curius, how exactly do
these banking apps do deposits by check. What common things go wrong? is
security between me and the banks good 'nuf?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 8:15 AM glen  wrote:

> Well, I'd recommend against doing any banking on your phone, or doing
> anything important with it. But if you must, do it on an exclusive device
> that doesn't automatically send everything to Google or Apple, doesn't
> automatically connect to every coffee shop wifi, etc. Make sure the whole
> phone is encrypted. Don't carry it everywhere *or* have 2 that are cloned
> so when a skateboarder whips by and grabs it out of your hand, you can run
> home and lock everything down with the clone. Use another phone for
> arbitrary plebe things like selfies and Telegram. Use aliases. If they
> don't know your real name, they can't steal your ID.
>
> Or, just don't do anything important on your phone. If it's important,
> there are other, better, ways to do it.
>
> On 9/29/22 17:07, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > I just recently got more of a proper bank account with BofA after a
> 'misshap'  with a cashcard. Keeping it relevant to Friam I think family has
> some umm mmm concerns about data security, and...ok so what they really
> would like to know for using the apps to make deposits by check. is How
> likely is it for things to go sideways and suddenly deets from the check,
> everyone that might cares knows.  I suggested to them: we aren't /that
> / important. someone like Poodlesec, or lolPHPsec isn't going to find me
> interesting enough to bother. If or when they  turn a places electric
> security into the consistency of /dev/null or worse. We're so screwed by
> then anyway.
> > Short of that: what's been folks experience? are
> they reasonable secure?  Personally I'd think i'd be more likely to run
> into problems from fat fingering something. Than a check going poof, but
> that'd still suck.
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interuption, for questions about banking apps

[glen]

Well, I'd recommend against doing any banking on your phone, or doing anything 
important with it. But if you must, do it on an exclusive device that doesn't 
automatically send everything to Google or Apple, doesn't automatically connect 
to every coffee shop wifi, etc. Make sure the whole phone is encrypted. Don't 
carry it everywhere *or* have 2 that are cloned so when a skateboarder whips by 
and grabs it out of your hand, you can run home and lock everything down with 
the clone. Use another phone for arbitrary plebe things like selfies and 
Telegram. Use aliases. If they don't know your real name, they can't steal your 
ID.

Or, just don't do anything important on your phone. If it's important, there 
are other, better, ways to do it.

On 9/29/22 17:07, Gillian Densmore wrote:

I just recently got more of a proper bank account with BofA after a 'misshap'  
with a cashcard. Keeping it relevant to Friam I think family has some umm mmm 
concerns about data security, and...ok so what they really would like to know 
for using the apps to make deposits by check. is How likely is it for things to 
go sideways and suddenly deets from the check, everyone that might cares knows. 
 I suggested to them: we aren't /that / important. someone like Poodlesec, or 
lolPHPsec isn't going to find me interesting enough to bother. If or when they  
turn a places electric security into the consistency of /dev/null or worse. 
We're so screwed by then anyway.
Short of that: what's been folks experience? are they reasonable secure?  
Personally I'd think i'd be more likely to run into problems from fat fingering 
something. Than a check going poof, but that'd still suck.



--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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