Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Jochen Fromm]

Thanks everybody for the kind words. Here is a video from better times (I think 
last summer)  which shows her at a favorite activity: eating green 
grasshttps://youtube.com/shorts/tHbNmjjxi2g?si=LInNxKEyq7H0GNTMAnd here is one 
that shows her on a weekend ride. We got her accidentally because the riding 
school where my wife was taking lessons closed and the owner who wanted to 
retire sold all her horses. 
https://youtube.com/shorts/u0I0gYomxD0?si=IQcS5EMcyjljEnQFI am not sure if we 
should buy a new one again, the last days were quite painful. Maybe after a 
year or two if we can afford it. They are fascinating animals, so easily 
frightened and yet so much stronger and faster than we are. They also have 
totally different sleep patterns and can sleep while standing. 
https://sleepopolis.com/education/sleep-habits-of-the-animal-kingdom-infographic-J.
 Original message From: Frank Wimberly  
Date: 3/20/24  1:46 PM  (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity 
Coffee Group  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers I am so 
sorry, Jochen.---Frank C. Wimberly140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505505 
670-9918Santa Fe, NMOn Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 12:59 AM Jochen Fromm 
 wrote:I believe you can track your sleep using an iPhone 
and an Apple watch (but I have neither so I can't tell if it works 
well)https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211685Personally I don't sleep well 
since Sunday when our horse died after a 3h colic operation in the clinic. 
Non-human animals like cats, dogs or horses do not cry tears to express 
emotion, but they express emotions in other ways and it was still a terrible 
experience to see her suffer without being to help.-J. Original message 
From: Nicholas Thompson  Date: 3/20/24  4:13 
AM  (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
 Subject: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers Everybody I know sleeps 
badly.  Has any of you had any lu from heartrate?  ck with a sleeptracker.  Did 
it teach you anything you did not already know?    I borrowed a fit bit from my 
daughter and it tells me my sleep efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem 
or deep sleep.  Does it know what it is talking about.   Can you get all of 
that.Any experience to share out there?  Nick 
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Re: [FRIAM] the inequities of uniquity

[Frank Wimberly]

What's wrong with "unusual"?  It avoids the problem.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 1:55 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 3/20/24 12:54 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Everyday as I am listening to CNN I say, "There are no degrees of
> uniqueness," multiple times.
>
>
> I'm hung up on the usage of qualified  "uniqueness"  as well, but in
> perhaps the opposite sense.
>
> I agree with the premise that "unique" in it's purest, simplest form does
> seem to be inherently singular.  On the other hand, this mal(icious)
> propensity of qualifying uniqueness (uniqueish?) is so common, that I have
> to believe there is a concept there which people who use those terms are
> reaching for.  They are not wrong to reach for it, just annoying in the
> label they choose?
>
> I had a round with GPT4 trying to discuss this, not because I think LLMs
> are the authority on *anything* but rather because the discussions I have
> with them can help me brainstorm my way around ideas with the LLM nominally
> representing "what a lot of people say" (if not think).   Careful prompting
> seems to be able to help narrow down  *all people* (in the training data)
> to different/interesting subsets of *lots of people* with certain
> characteristics.
>
> GPT4 definitely wanted to allow for a wide range of gradated, speciated,
> spectral uses of "unique" and gave me plenty of commonly used examples
> which validates my position that "for something so obviously/technically
> incorrect, it sure is used a lot!"
>
> We discussed uniqueness in the context of evolutionary biology and
> cladistics and homology and homoplasy.  We discussed it in terms of cluster
> analysis.  We discussed the distinction between objective and subjective,
> absolute and relative.
>
> The closest thing to a conclusion I have at the moment is:
>
>1. Most people do and will continue to treat "uniqueness" as a
>relative/spectral/subjective qualifier.
>2. Many people like Frank and myself (half the time) will have an
>allergic reaction to this usage.
>3. The common (mis)usage might be attributable to conflating "unique"
>with "distinct"?
>
> - Steve
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[FRIAM] the inequities of uniquity

[Steve Smith]

On 3/20/24 12:54 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
Everyday as I am listening to CNN I say, "There are no degrees of 
uniqueness," multiple times.


I'm hung up on the usage of qualified  "uniqueness"  as well, but in 
perhaps the opposite sense.


I agree with the premise that "unique" in it's purest, simplest form 
does seem to be inherently singular.  On the other hand, this 
mal(icious) propensity of qualifying uniqueness (uniqueish?) is so 
common, that I have to believe there is a concept there which people who 
use those terms are reaching for.  They are not wrong to reach for it, 
just annoying in the label they choose?


I had a round with GPT4 trying to discuss this, not because I think LLMs 
are the authority on *anything* but rather because the discussions I 
have with them can help me brainstorm my way around ideas with the LLM 
nominally representing "what a lot of people say" (if not think).   
Careful prompting seems to be able to help narrow down  *all people* (in 
the training data) to different/interesting subsets of *lots of people* 
with certain characteristics.


GPT4 definitely wanted to allow for a wide range of gradated, speciated, 
spectral uses of "unique" and gave me plenty of commonly used examples 
which validates my position that "for something so obviously/technically 
incorrect, it sure is used a lot!"


We discussed uniqueness in the context of evolutionary biology and 
cladistics and homology and homoplasy.  We discussed it in terms of 
cluster analysis.  We discussed the distinction between objective and 
subjective, absolute and relative.


The closest thing to a conclusion I have at the moment is:

1. Most people do and will continue to treat "uniqueness" as a
   relative/spectral/subjective qualifier.
2. Many people like Frank and myself (half the time) will have an
   allergic reaction to this usage.
3. The common (mis)usage might be attributable to conflating "unique"
   with "distinct"?

- Steve
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Re: [FRIAM] Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Frank Wimberly]

Thanks, Barry.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 9:58 AM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> You might tell him that Jane Goodall does not spell her last name as
> Godall. I always feel like a jerk when I correct somebody like this, but
> perhaps he has a chance to change it.
>
> —Barry
>
> On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:24, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he seemed
> very proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to people I
> thought would be interested.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
> To: Cyril Christo 
>
>
> Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From:* "ettore spacewow.org" 
>> *Date:* March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
>> *To:* Cyril Christo 
>> *Subject:* *FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass*
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Frank Wimberly]

Everyday as I am listening to CNN I say, "There are no degrees of
uniqueness," multiple times.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 9:58 AM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> You might tell him that Jane Goodall does not spell her last name as
> Godall. I always feel like a jerk when I correct somebody like this, but
> perhaps he has a chance to change it.
>
> —Barry
>
> On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:24, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he seemed
> very proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to people I
> thought would be interested.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
> To: Cyril Christo 
>
>
> Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From:* "ettore spacewow.org" 
>> *Date:* March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
>> *To:* Cyril Christo 
>> *Subject:* *FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass*
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Steve Smith]

 * Nick -
 * I don't know the specifics of your sleep difficulties but  I have
   always been interested in sleep and perhaps dreaming even moreso...
 * The following "Great Course" I listened to from Audible a few months
   ago was really fascinating and covered the whole territory from
   history to contemporary research in both human and animal sleep
   science.
 *

 o


 Secrets of Sleep Science: From Dreams to Disorders

 o By:Craig H. Heller
   
,The
   Great Courses
   

 o Narrated by:Craig H. Heller
   

 o Series:The Great Courses: Better Living
   

 o

I myself have used both phone apps (you leave the phone on your bed, for 
example under your pillow)  and fitness (e.g. fitbit) trackers.   I 
haven't tried the former for years and found them (at the time) to be 
somewhat limited, but mildly informative (based on detecting micro/macro 
inertial motions?).   The latter (several brands over the years) have 
gotten progressively better.


By better, I mean that what the app (connected to the band) reports fits 
my overnight experience.   It has sometimes surprised me,  but overall 
it mostly confirms what I already knew.   I am perhaps an unusual case, 
seeking the liminal sleep states (hypnogogic/hypnopompic) for the 
dreaming that comes with it (perhaps I should just give over to the 
popular pursuit through psychedelics?)...   My idea of a "good night's 
sleep" involves a lot of drifting in/out... the trackers don't always 
report this well, reporting long periods of deep sleep which I 
experienced as otherwise, but probably not leading to any changes in my 
"stillness"?


Biphasic Cycles:

I don't know if this is relevant to you but I've recommended it to other 
friends who began to experience segmented or biphasic sleep, 
particularly as they got older... At Day's Close: Night in Times Past 
   by Roger Ekirch.    I found 
it (and the broad historical and contemporary research) around the 
phenomena of (typically) sleeping from soon after sundown until midnight 
(plus or minus), waking for a few hours, and then completing a day's 
sleep/rest into the morning, compelling.    In most cases, my friends 
reported that their waking after a few hours of sleep, unable to go back 
to sleep easily, as disturbing.   I wanted to relieve them of the 
disturbance by helping them (possibly) normalize the "midnight vigil" 
and put it to good use.


Many of us (perhaps) have experienced waking late in the night unable to 
return to sleep using reading to put us back to sleep. This is the 
closest I have come to the biphasic Ekirch and others describe... 
particularly when I have been reading an acutely fascinating book (fic 
or non) which then might capture me for an hour or two...


In college, after my first child was born and I was very very busy 
already, I found that I could perform better by going to sleep at dark 
(with the baby) and then when she needed midnight attention, staying up 
doing homework or paperwork for my business for an hour or two, I was 
much sharper then typically than if I simply stayed up late or got up 
early.   I know this doesn't apply to you directly (nor to me today) but 
I felt it validated the idea of biphasic sleep cycles.


In any case, best wishes with your sleep endeavors!

- Steve

On 3/20/24 8:47 AM, Alexander Rasmus wrote:

Nick,

If you look around in google scholar you can find comparisons between 
smart watches and medical devices for monitoring sleep stages, e.g., 
https://mhealth.jmir.org/2019/6/e13384?utm_campaign=JMIR_TrendMD_0_medium=cpc_source=TrendMD 



In general, you should be fairly skeptical of specifics but trends may 
still be useful. The only way to establish whether it's reliable in 
your case is through detailed comparison between your own observations 
of sleep behavior/outcomes and the watch. This is 

Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Gillian Densmore]

Pokemon sleep is one


Maybe this'll help sleep. It does for me.


maybe this to 

See if any of these help

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 11:39 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I wore the cheapest fitness tracker I could find on Amazon, an Amazfit,
> for a while.  It believed it could distinguish all the phases of my sleep
> and give me a colorful chart of my night every morning.  The charts
> appeared reasonable but there was never anything I could do about it, the
> tracker's only consistent advice was to try to go to bed at a regular and
> reasonable time.  I got tired of wearing and caring for the band so it's in
> a drawer now somewhere.
>
> My greatest disappointment with the band, however, turned out to be a
> mistake.  I though the pulse readings it was giving me didn't make any
> sense, because they bounced around all over the place.  But the actual
> problem was my atrial fibrillation.  My pulse rate was bouncing around all
> over the place.  Finally got that fixed last fall.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:47 AM Alexander Rasmus 
> wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> If you look around in google scholar you can find comparisons between
>> smart watches and medical devices for monitoring sleep stages, e.g.,
>> https://mhealth.jmir.org/2019/6/e13384?utm_campaign=JMIR_TrendMD_0_medium=cpc_source=TrendMD
>>
>> In general, you should be fairly skeptical of specifics but trends may
>> still be useful. The only way to establish whether it's reliable in your
>> case is through detailed comparison between your own observations of sleep
>> behavior/outcomes and the watch. This is likely to be a useful exercise
>> regardless. I use one, and the sleep quality number is generally fairly
>> good.
>>
>> Jochen, I am sorry for your loss.
>>
>> Best,
>> Alex
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Everybody I know sleeps badly.  Has any of you had any lu from
>>> heartrate?  ck with a sleeptracker.  Did it teach you anything you did not
>>> already know?I borrowed a fit bit from my daughter and it tells me my
>>> sleep efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem or deep sleep.  Does it
>>> know what it is talking about.   Can you get all of that.
>>>
>>> Any experience to share out there?
>>>
>>> Nick
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Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Roger Critchlow]

I wore the cheapest fitness tracker I could find on Amazon, an Amazfit, for
a while.  It believed it could distinguish all the phases of my sleep and
give me a colorful chart of my night every morning.  The charts appeared
reasonable but there was never anything I could do about it, the tracker's
only consistent advice was to try to go to bed at a regular and reasonable
time.  I got tired of wearing and caring for the band so it's in a drawer
now somewhere.

My greatest disappointment with the band, however, turned out to be a
mistake.  I though the pulse readings it was giving me didn't make any
sense, because they bounced around all over the place.  But the actual
problem was my atrial fibrillation.  My pulse rate was bouncing around all
over the place.  Finally got that fixed last fall.

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:47 AM Alexander Rasmus 
wrote:

> Nick,
>
> If you look around in google scholar you can find comparisons between
> smart watches and medical devices for monitoring sleep stages, e.g.,
> https://mhealth.jmir.org/2019/6/e13384?utm_campaign=JMIR_TrendMD_0_medium=cpc_source=TrendMD
>
> In general, you should be fairly skeptical of specifics but trends may
> still be useful. The only way to establish whether it's reliable in your
> case is through detailed comparison between your own observations of sleep
> behavior/outcomes and the watch. This is likely to be a useful exercise
> regardless. I use one, and the sleep quality number is generally fairly
> good.
>
> Jochen, I am sorry for your loss.
>
> Best,
> Alex
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Everybody I know sleeps badly.  Has any of you had any lu from
>> heartrate?  ck with a sleeptracker.  Did it teach you anything you did not
>> already know?I borrowed a fit bit from my daughter and it tells me my
>> sleep efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem or deep sleep.  Does it
>> know what it is talking about.   Can you get all of that.
>>
>> Any experience to share out there?
>>
>> Nick
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Re: [FRIAM] Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Barry MacKichan]

You might tell him that Jane Goodall does not spell her last name as 
Godall. I always feel like a jerk when I correct somebody like this, but 
perhaps he has a chance to change it.


—Barry

On 19 Mar 2024, at 21:24, Frank Wimberly wrote:

I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he 
seemed
very proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to 
people I

thought would be interested.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-- Forwarded message -
From: Frank Wimberly 
Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
To: Cyril Christo 


Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.


---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  
wrote:





Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

*From:* "ettore spacewow.org" 
*Date:* March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
*To:* Cyril Christo 
*Subject:* *FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass*









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Re: [FRIAM] Walking Thunder one page first pass

[Roger Frye]

Then there is Buffalo Thunder, which I have been told is a euphemism for fart.

> On Mar 19, 2024, at 7:24 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
> I met the director of this film.  His enthusiasm was great and he seemed very 
> proud of his work.  I told him I would forward this poster to people I 
> thought would be interested.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
> Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Walking Thunder one page first pass
> To: Cyril Christo mailto:cc4si...@icloud.com>>
> 
> 
> Thanks, Cyril.  Will forward.
> 
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024, 10:39 AM Cyril Christo  > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> From: "ettore spacewow.org " >> >
>>> Date: March 18, 2024 at 9:33:14 PM MDT
>>> To: Cyril Christo mailto:cc4si...@icloud.com>>
>>> Subject: FW: Walking Thunder one page first pass
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Frank Wimberly]

I am so sorry, Jochen.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 12:59 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I believe you can track your sleep using an iPhone and an Apple watch (but
> I have neither so I can't tell if it works well)
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT211685
>
> Personally I don't sleep well since Sunday when our horse died after a 3h
> colic operation in the clinic. Non-human animals like cats, dogs or horses
> do not cry tears to express emotion, but they express emotions in other
> ways and it was still a terrible experience to see her suffer without being
> to help.
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Nicholas Thompson 
> Date: 3/20/24 4:13 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers
>
> Everybody I know sleeps badly.  Has any of you had any lu from heartrate?
> ck with a sleeptracker.  Did it teach you anything you did not already
> know?I borrowed a fit bit from my daughter and it tells me my sleep
> efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem or deep sleep.  Does it know
> what it is talking about.   Can you get all of that.
>
> Any experience to share out there?
>
> Nick
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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>
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