[FRIAM] Apple vs the DOJ so far

[Gillian Densmore]

This was just a matter of time:
https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/22/apple-vs-us-antitrust-lawsuit-everything-we-know-so-far-on-the-dojs-iphone-case/
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Re: [FRIAM] Sleep trackers

[Gillian Densmore]

Pokemon sleep is one


Maybe this'll help sleep. It does for me.


maybe this to 

See if any of these help

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 11:39 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I wore the cheapest fitness tracker I could find on Amazon, an Amazfit,
> for a while.  It believed it could distinguish all the phases of my sleep
> and give me a colorful chart of my night every morning.  The charts
> appeared reasonable but there was never anything I could do about it, the
> tracker's only consistent advice was to try to go to bed at a regular and
> reasonable time.  I got tired of wearing and caring for the band so it's in
> a drawer now somewhere.
>
> My greatest disappointment with the band, however, turned out to be a
> mistake.  I though the pulse readings it was giving me didn't make any
> sense, because they bounced around all over the place.  But the actual
> problem was my atrial fibrillation.  My pulse rate was bouncing around all
> over the place.  Finally got that fixed last fall.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 8:47 AM Alexander Rasmus 
> wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> If you look around in google scholar you can find comparisons between
>> smart watches and medical devices for monitoring sleep stages, e.g.,
>> https://mhealth.jmir.org/2019/6/e13384?utm_campaign=JMIR_TrendMD_0_medium=cpc_source=TrendMD
>>
>> In general, you should be fairly skeptical of specifics but trends may
>> still be useful. The only way to establish whether it's reliable in your
>> case is through detailed comparison between your own observations of sleep
>> behavior/outcomes and the watch. This is likely to be a useful exercise
>> regardless. I use one, and the sleep quality number is generally fairly
>> good.
>>
>> Jochen, I am sorry for your loss.
>>
>> Best,
>> Alex
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Everybody I know sleeps badly.  Has any of you had any lu from
>>> heartrate?  ck with a sleeptracker.  Did it teach you anything you did not
>>> already know?I borrowed a fit bit from my daughter and it tells me my
>>> sleep efficiency is lousy, and I don't bet much rem or deep sleep.  Does it
>>> know what it is talking about.   Can you get all of that.
>>>
>>> Any experience to share out there?
>>>
>>> Nick
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Re: [FRIAM] Generative AI Images and 'stylization'

[Gillian Densmore]

Ugh "ai", It's not even fully hear yet. And I'm getting fatigued by news
about it. At the moment Nvidias investment has all the makings of being a
bubble, Stability Ai has an id chrisis and is getting stale. Stable
diffusion can spend 30 minutes making pictures, and nightmare fuel hands,
and I guess we can also make nightmare fuel  meme, and rickroll videos from
prompts(ok that one is at least amusing )   Wake me up when machamp can
help with spring cleaning, and R2D2 with C3PO can help drive people to the
mall.
My issue comes from how even the little I read just the synopsis of the odd
news article "ai" is used to a degree that it might  have a chance of being
NP complete and a genuine Wat?! "ai assisted networking power tools for
SaaP ai certified cloud services coming from Oracle" (uh translator!),
"nvidia's "ai assisted generative frames to assist with 4k gaming.(leaving
out neutering ram and bus speed for real propper 1080p and 2k anying) " and
my favorite "adobe investing into it's Ai generated, Ai assisted photo
edditing sweet and generative video suite..." someone get the Linus Tech
Tips, and NY times a copy editor, that's almost incoherent!
And those real headlines was just from last friday alone! that kind tech
reporting, and development is why. I for one, are getting tired of people
saying Ai, like a broken record.  Sam Altman might think, and try to be, a
rockstar of LLM's, and that much is (potentially) great. but that's like a
Jallopy car compared to what full propper Ai  (is? or will be? a fine tuned
mustang, or Volvo)
Just my opinion.

On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 5:14 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> glen wrote:
>
> > I'm fond of eyeball attempts to determine whether images are from
> > generative AI. Your 1st one definitely looks like it. The 2nd one, I
> > can't tell. (It's cheating to look at the alt description or the
> > filename.)
> I'm far from an expert but I have spent a bit of time generating images
> for various (mostly useless purposes) and feel there must be some
> reserved, finite set of "stylizations" which even when overlayed or
> convolved-with overt stylizations (e.g. in the style of a dutch master),
> some kind of attractor or canalization get invoked.   I wonder if there
> is some sort of explicit or implicit taxonomies of stylization?
> > But the very prominent slur on the coin kinda sorta gives it away.
> > DALL-E is obviously not very safe ... or maybe it's been trained on
> > too much UK/Aussie content.
>
> I almost didn't share that one because of the implied perjorative... I
> forget what I asked for, I think it was "POTUS inscribed on the coin"
> but was not surprised a bit when it did something else entirely, and in
> fact I don't think it "knew" what it was writing... I generally ignore
> any specific language that gets included in DALL-E's hallucionations,
> they are so often illegible (including alphabets that probably don't
> align with any real human ones) and rarely properly spelled.  I also
> rarely try to get it to generate any text for this reason.   Even
> getting a "T" on the trump spoof-sneakers I generated was nearly
> impossible but one happy accident yielded a "T" that looked a lot like
> it had cyrillic origens.
>
> The second image is very reminiscent of one of the regular New Yorker
> cartoonists (contemporary or past?) IMO.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] 0 years ago today - Our Owen Densmore as a leading star on stage with Jobs unveiling the first Macintosh

[Gillian Densmore]

Jobs and Dad (Owen) had some differences (being polite). Was one of the
reasons he went to SUN, IIRC it also had a infamously unhealthy work/life
balance. The mac team also was cutting it very close to get a working(ish)
computer for steve jobs to show off. The mac team had some 'unexpected
features' (bugs) at least on the software level, and IIRC hardware side as
well before it could be shipped. I always thought it sounded a little like
steve hawkings.

On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 1:54 PM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> The 1984 Macintosh Ad
> 
> shown during the Jan 22 Superbowl teased the Jan 26, 1984 introduction of
> the Mac at the  Apple Shareholders meeting (I don't have the video).  Jobs
> did a demo and then a panel discussion with 8 members of the software and
> hardware team  The whole presentation including the developer panel was
> repeated 4 days later at a Boston Computer Society meeting. Our Owen
> Densmore is one of those 8 as the software engineer lured from Xerox to
> work on WYSIWIG printing and embedding a software rendering engine in the
> printer itself. here's the time codes of these discussions
>
>- https://youtu.be/1tQ5XwvjPmA?feature=shared=1336 – Jobs explaining
>the printer
>- https://youtu.be/1tQ5XwvjPmA?feature=shared=1741 - Owen
>introduction
>- https://youtu.be/1tQ5XwvjPmA?feature=shared=2379 - Randy Wigginton
>nods to Owen’s printer work
>- https://youtu.be/1tQ5XwvjPmA?feature=shared=2683 - Printing
>question answered by Jobs and Owen
>- https://youtu.be/1tQ5XwvjPmA?feature=shared=3352 - Owen gets up to
>get a floppy disk :]
>- https://youtu.be/1tQ5XwvjPmA?feature=shared=3744 - Owen comments
>on the Mac’s multi-tasking abilities
>
> Owen left Apple to join Sun in the last half of the 80s and worked on NeWS
> - postscipt-based windowing system.
> NeXT would later adopt instead of QuickDraw for its windowing system.
>
> When Jobs was at NeXT, he gave this talk at MIT Sloan School
> 
>  ~8
> years later. In the talk, I find his observations interesting esp wrt to
> how important printing and desktop publishing would be for the Mac and they
> didn't predict it.
>
> *When we did the Macintosh, we never anticipated desktop publishing when we 
> created the Mac. Sounds funny, because that turned out to be the Mac's 
> compelling advantage, right? The thing that it did not one and a
> half or two times better than everything else, but four or five times better 
> than anything else, where you had to have one. We never anticipated it. We 
> anticipated bitmap displays and laser printers, but we never thought about 
> pagemaker, that whole industry really coming down to the desktop. Maybe we 
> weren't smart enough.*
>
>
> *But we were smart enough to see it start to happen nine to 12 months later. 
> And we changed our entire marketing and business strategy to focus on desktop 
> publishing, and it became the Trojan horse that eventually got the Mac into 
> corporate America, where it could show its owners all the other wonderful 
> things it could do.*
>
> Apple has Owen to thank for that!
>
> Redfish, btw, was an Apple VAR in the early 90s helping commercial
> printers to prepress - digital scanning, digital halftoning, color
> separation, digital imaging (early photoshop), plate-ready film printing,
> and page layout (QuarkXpress and PageMaker). Of course, I didn't know Owen
> yet - I would first meet him at the 2000 Complex Systems Summer School
> where we were both students from the BusNet. I was from BiosGroup and Owen
> from Sun R Labs.
>
> Mad respect for your changing the world, Owen! And you ain't done yet. :-)
>
> -Stephen
>
> _
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com
> stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu
> Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab
> 
> mobile: (505)577-5828
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Re: [FRIAM] metathesis

[Gillian Densmore]

In order to go to Infinting and beyond. Have Rex and woody get the
zargle type one flux repair module for a type 3 warp cleared space craft.
Then the evil forces of Lord Zedd and Emperror Zurg  can be thwarted.
I'll be around all week.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2023 at 5:18 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Nick -
>
> i used to faint-dead when people used "inform" to mean "shape" as in,"My
> thinking  was informed by Glen's concept, Steelmanning," but I am trying to
> get over that.  Turns out it's a perfectly valid meaning of the verb, and I
> don't have a leg to stand on.   I still hate it, but I hate it quietly. I
> don't object when people say it.  I just think about ways to kill them
> later.
>
>  I will try to let that inform my articulations and constructions
> herein, henceforth 
>
> FWIW I did punch this meta-answer through GPT-4 to get feedback on its
> grammaricity (my neologism for grammatically correct) and it gave me basic
> permission to use it but with myriad warnings about possible misconstruals.
>
> And for recursive fascination, GPT-4 offered the following rewrite of the
> above:
>
> "For what it's worth, I submitted this meta-answer to GPT-4 for feedback
> on its grammaticality, and it provided suggestions, cautioning me about
> possible misunderstandings."
>
> I could probably benefit from a GPT-4 based agent-filter to my FriAM posts
> (or all my writing)... but doing so seems to risk getting closer to the
> fall-line of one slippery slope or another, whether inviting AI to become
> my overlord or risking becoming post/transhuman. I'll save the tangential
> riff this is triggering for a followup post (which I may or may not
> actually release into the FriAMstreamOconsciousness)...
>
> - Steve
>
> *"I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not
> sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"*
>
> vs GPT's attempt to deconvolute this affected (attributed to John
> McCloskey) convolution:
>
> *"You might have misunderstood my intended meaning, despite believing you
> understood what I said."*
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Is the American political system broken?

[Gillian Densmore]

Yes! The Op wrote long and, frankly, to theoretical a email to ask why
american politics is so [redacted because steve asked nicely].
It boils down to greed, and no accountability, what are effectively
guaranteed contracts get a cushy job for 2-4 years at a time.  The dumb way
people say "that side over their blocked my ridiculous microphallus
compensating bill to be a big fat jerk as revenge for Karen not going out
with me, so now i'll have tantrum."
-as mere mortal citizens: we can't vote/fire them if they do an awful job.
-they constantly tell a big pack of lies
-they pick the most ridiculous things to have a stuck thing about.
-Show boat and act like bullies, with sound bites to sound cool with no
substance.
-multiple decades strait of the same fundamentally broken ways of doing
things.
-lol not very many well adjusted people go into politics as a result of the
god awful "wretched hive of scum and villainy.".
Ranked choice voting, I suspect, alas alas, would confuse people...and I
want to be wrong very desperately about that line of thinking. Man, how
many people vote absentee so they can read up on what the bills are? What
particular pack of nonsense, who is selling, and it sucks a ton that it
feels so...soul degradingly terrible: that I for one have picked a few
people only because the rest were so much worse.
  I think the leadership, top to bottom, is only going to get better when
dweebs like Kevin Mcarthy aren't on TV bragging about "forcing the poor and
unfortunate to work" (reality check: did he even read or think about that
sound bite?)
And pick from who and who and who?  So ok 45 SOMEHOW gets in because of I
can't even guess why.  Sooo who else would I pick from?  Is the RNC going
to have what amunts to 3 compete brands of bad on the same ticket?  What
about the DNC?


This sucks to type:  My hunch is people are picking the most sucky people
because how cool they sound, or (I kid you not) being rich and white.  :(
I suspect it'd then be 3 bitter, angry old white dudes vs I can't even
guess what. and that sucks.



On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 3:12 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Wow Qadaffi hisself!   I've read some Marx, some Lenin, some Mao, some
> Castro and others (enemies of democracy in the US vernacular) but this is
> new to me... thanks for the reference.
>
> I definitely find "Democracy is the tyranny of the majority over the
> minority" to be apt for all forms of democracy, with 2-party systems and
> charismatic/populist (elected) leaders to be the worst extreme of this,
> with multi-party systems improving it piecewise but not perfectly.
>
> The representative nature of the US House/Senate and of Parliaments adds
> another dimension to the problem while aggravating the underlying problem.
>
> A *direct* democracy (if that is possible) still suffers the "tyranny"
> problem, I sure don't want to be one of the 49 against the 51 having to do
> everything "their way" "because majority".
>
> But then Churchill's "worst form of government, except for all the others
> we've tried to date" still holds me in it's thrall even if my higher self
> wishes for something better if acutely underspecified.
> On 9/3/23 3:47 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>
> In this context, I would like to share the thoughts of an important world
> leader (not very popular with successive US governments) on 1 party, 2
> party and multi-party systems. I found his (poorly translated) analysis
> very perceptive even if the alternatives he proposed instead were a bit
> prosaic. (For the USA substitute Congress / Senate for Parliament).
>
> *Parliaments, therefore, have become a means of plundering and usurping
> the authority of the people. It has thus become the right of the people to
> struggle, through popular revolution, to destroy such instruments – the
> so-called parliamentary assemblies which usurp democracy and sovereignty,
> and which stifle the will of the people. The masses have the right to
> proclaim reverberantly the new principle: no representation in lieu of the
> people.*
>
> *If parliament is formed from one party as a result of its winning an
> election, it becomes a parliament of the winning party and not of the
> people. It represents the party and not the people, and the executive power
> of the parliament becomes that of the victorious party and not of the
> people. The same is true of the parliament of proportional representation
> in which each party holds a number of seats proportional to their success
> in the popular vote. The members of the parliament represent their
> respective parties and not the people, and the power established by such a
> coalition is the power of the combined parties and not that of the people.
> Under such systems, the people are the victims whose votes are vied for by
> exploitative competing factions who dupe the people into political circuses
> that are outwardly noisy and frantic, but inwardly powerless and
> irrelevant. Alternatively, the people are seduced into standing in long,

Re: [FRIAM] The Three Toed Sloth meets the Shoggoth

[Gillian Densmore]

Sooo a derpy animal, meets  a literal eldritch nightmare creature. Now does
this encounter include both speakable, and unspeakable PTSD inducing
nightmares? or did the derps mind just turn into something about the
consistency of jello?

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 2:56 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I was trawling through my saved bookmarks looking for insights into
> Prigozhin's mutiny, when I stumbled to http://bactra.org/weblog/ and
> found that Henry Farrell and Cosma Shalizi have just published an essay in
> The Economist,
> https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2023/06/21/artificial-intelligence-is-a-familiar-looking-monster-say-henry-farrell-and-cosma-shalizi,
> paywalled of course, but there is a twitter listicle version at
> https://twitter.com/henryfarrell/status/1671547591262191618
>
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[FRIAM] in other tech news reddit is imploding

[Gillian Densmore]

I haven't followed all of the drama
a fairly biased post from a user:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelSnap/comments/148zdb2/rmarvelsnaps_update_on_the_reddit_blackout_and_a/
The TLDR as best I can tell is reddit had planed a IPO, and before that
announced to use reddits API's would cost more.  Somewhere along the line a
3rd party reddit app called apollo and reddit were talking business for a
contract, and that went south quickly. The upshot being it'd cost a
bokamillionsofbucks to pay reddit for user data and api access. So now a
bunch of reddit mods turned off access to their subreddits.
In the meantime their now over at...lemmy+kbin.social of all places.
I guess today the powers that be at reddit might be fixing to turn off the
private flag for the subs not hearing it about this apollo thing.

What I don't get at all is the amount of drama over one app. Then I haven't
used reddit in years. Muchless whatever this apollo thing is. And I'm also
beyond lost why reddit wants to go public.

On the other hand kbin seems vaguely like some bulletin boards, or forums
from back in the day. I keep waiting for a banner add with all of the
BY BALLBUSTER 9!!! FOR EXTREM ENERGY header tags to
show up on kbin or lemmy.world

any guesses who's the bigger dweeb: huffman or musk?
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Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[Gillian Densmore]

You can still get a voice number. For what it's worth. But they changed it
from a true seperate number to glorified call forwarding. -_-.. When I used
it's call screen feature people that wanted to call me. Would read me the
riot act (looking at you kim) And scam callers would get through to my land
line eventually anyway.  Among the worst offenders are debt collectors. I
don't have any. (not that I know of) but once in a while I'll get smashed
for hours on end from the same leach. I don't answer. And pretty quickly
one of my  blocking apps will block them.  For a while because I was in a
mood, I had one set up to randomly pick from: the infamous I am lucutus of
borg sound clip, the loudestset of horns I could find, a high pitched
whistle, them talking at themselves, and my favorite: a oldschool modem
dial tone. The hight of hilarity getting a scam email saying to stop stop
stop we give up! And then being disturbed to wonder how they got my email
address even if it went to spam.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 12:56 PM glen  wrote:

> Well, I'm not sure if you can still get a Google Voice number. But I just
> now added my landline as the "linked number" in my Google Voice account.
> And it now forwards there, screens calls, etc. So it's still there. Of
> course Google will/does kill things arbitrarily.
>
> On 4/19/23 08:37, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > I think Google has stopped its telephone service. It got enough samples
> of
> > voices to train its systems and needs no more.
> >
> > It's fairly easy to turn a phone that supports voice mail and caller ID
> > into a call blocker.
> >
> > - Have the phone answer on the first ring.
> > - Record your message saying that this is a screening and voice mail
> > system. Instruct people to introduce themselves. Tell them that if
> no one
> > answers, they should continue with their message.
> > - When the phone rings, look at the screen to see who's calling and
> > listen to the self-introduction. Then decide if you want to answer.
> >
> > Virtually all spam callers will either hang up before identifying
> > themselves or identify themselves in such a way that you know not to
> answer.
> >
> > -- Russ
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:46 AM glen  wrote:
> >
> >> You should be able to forward to your landline from a virtual number
> like
> >> Google Voice. Then only give out your virtual number. You should be
> able to
> >> pick up your landline and Google will talk to you with a phone menu of
> >> options.
> >>
> >> Of course, that doesn't solve people getting your landline number from a
> >> phone book ... do people still use phone books?
> >>
> >> On 4/19/23 07:17, Barry MacKichan wrote:
> >>> I like Frank’s solution, but I’m also interested in a solution for our
> >> land line. The other option for the land line is to cancel it entirely,
> but
> >> about six weeks ago I got a call from a friend who looked us up when he
> was
> >> in Santa Fe, which is when he found out we had moved. He found our land
> >> line number and I just happened to be around when his call came in, and
> his
> >> caller id was announced by voice bot that lives in our land line. We
> might
> >> not have reconnected had I discontinued the land line. TBH, though, I
> had
> >> been trying to get his number — we were both thinking about the upcoming
> >> 60th anniversary of our canoe trip to York Factory on Hudson’s Bay.
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> >>
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> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> >> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> >>1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
> >>
> >>
> >> I think Google has stopped its telephone service. It got enough samples
> of voices to train its systems and needs no more.
> >>
> >> It's fairly easy to turn a phone that supports voice mail and caller ID
> into a call blocker.
> >>
> >>   * Have the phone answer on the first ring.
> >>   * Record your message saying that this is a screening and voice mail
> system. Instruct people to introduce themselves. Tell them that if no one
> answers, they should continue with their message.
> >>   * When the phone rings, look at the screen to see who's calling and
> listen to the self-introduction. Then decide if you want to answer.
> >>
> >> Virtually all spam callers will either hang up before identifying
> themselves or identify themselves in such a way that you know not to answer.
> >>
> >> __-- Russ
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:46 AM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> You should be able to forward to your landline from a virtual
> number like Google Voice. Then 

Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[Gillian Densmore]

lol ed...oh I don't know just. I bet if you step on a lego you might be
able to match that person  the trick would be to record it, and have it on
stand by just in case. Now cursing them out and ranting them is encouraged,
lol you never now just how much you need to get out of your system.
One of my friends worked at ebay in customer support back in the day. Him
being him got tired of them calling him, at work. Him being him and IIRC in
the marines. I have no idea how he  held down a part time job and do
military stuff, but some he did. lol sooo one day pookie called him at
work. Since had a nasty argument with, I think it was his boyfriend. He
came up with a plan to read them the riot act for call him at work, and why
not at home! do your job right man! kind of thinking. So I guess he figured
how to right a perl script to trace the call somehow and did exactly that
while cursing them out and playing  eminem at full volume.
Most of them stopped neer instantly. This is the same man that while he
worked for a theater went full medieval on a projector that was wonky, and
didn't work conistantly. after 15 minutes it not only worked. but did so
better than it had before. and kept working for quite a while afterwords.

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 5:07 PM Angel Edward  wrote:

> I tried Nick’s approach a while ago (before full employment) and the
> person on the other end starting crying. Made me feel terrible.
>
> Another time, I cursed at one who was telling me a series of lies. He
> responded with an admirable string of curses that I was unable to match.
>
> Ed
> __
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
> Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   edward.an...@gmail.com
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Apr 18, 2023, at 4:56 PM, Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Nick. I need to warn you. Talking to these spammers, at your stage of
> life. is very dangerous. They'll abuse how elderlies did like you did and
> try to get some good from the call. Now that they know it's a live human
> they won't stop. If the number comes back dead, sooner than latter its
> taken out of their database. They want to catch old people when their
> Bullshit and F you filters are off.
> Best thing to do is not to answer especially when you're talking to
> someone with a sharp knife   scalpel and a massive dose of pain killers!
> Scammers make * ton of money daily by wearing people down! They are at
> best sociopaths.
> 0-wear someone down
> 1-beg for money
> 2-for some surreal reason use teamviewer a remote controll app for windows.
> 3-more surreally pressure the weakened persson: ie YOU! into using a lot,
> like lots and lots of giftcards the ahole redeams in an account. often
> india, or china.
> 4-get you to use zelle to wire that money over
> 5???
> 6: you are so screwed and out of literally thousands of dollers
>
> so don't answer when the phone says spam/scam incoming. My friends and
> family leave a message, and or text if I didn't answer for whatever reason.
> Android has built in scam blocking. iOS does as well. Personally I also
> have nomorobo.
>
> These pitty party scammers are also in faceplant facebook groups! I
> kid you not, I'm in a blender for the masochist for people to do art
> in. After being frustrated how few of the pictures or models are from the
> poster. You get guys like someone who in the best engrish since 70s wireful
> and 80s anime said
> "I laptop need for blender, someone send me one it is new.,"  Now get
> this: Kid is in nigeria, claims to have parents that are royalty but poor
> me. they don't talk to me. and wants a new gizmo to make pretty pictures
> from blender.
> His profile was reported to facebook, and he was kicked from that group.
> Scarily enough their are tons, of people like that.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 2:30 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Nick -
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I  chatted up one of the callers.  I suggested that at a time of full
>> > employment, perhaps a bright guy like him might get a better job.  He
>> > replied that he was being paid quite well for his efforts!  Apparently
>> > the number of any fool who answers their phone is worth $7
>> Sounds like he got is money's worth on that call!
>> > .
>>
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>> FR

Re: [FRIAM] Call blockers

[Gillian Densmore]

Nick. I need to warn you. Talking to these spammers, at your stage of life.
is very dangerous. They'll abuse how elderlies did like you did and try to
get some good from the call. Now that they know it's a live human they
won't stop. If the number comes back dead, sooner than latter its taken out
of their database. They want to catch old people when their Bullshit and F
you filters are off.
Best thing to do is not to answer especially when you're talking to someone
with a sharp knife   scalpel and a massive dose of pain killers! Scammers
make * ton of money daily by wearing people down! They are at best
sociopaths.
0-wear someone down
1-beg for money
2-for some surreal reason use teamviewer a remote controll app for windows.
3-more surreally pressure the weakened persson: ie YOU! into using a lot,
like lots and lots of giftcards the ahole redeams in an account. often
india, or china.
4-get you to use zelle to wire that money over
5???
6: you are so screwed and out of literally thousands of dollers

so don't answer when the phone says spam/scam incoming. My friends and
family leave a message, and or text if I didn't answer for whatever reason.
Android has built in scam blocking. iOS does as well. Personally I also
have nomorobo.

These pitty party scammers are also in faceplant facebook groups! I kid
you not, I'm in a blender for the masochist for people to do art in.
After being frustrated how few of the pictures or models are from the
poster. You get guys like someone who in the best engrish since 70s wireful
and 80s anime said
"I laptop need for blender, someone send me one it is new.,"  Now get this:
Kid is in nigeria, claims to have parents that are royalty but poor me.
they don't talk to me. and wants a new gizmo to make pretty pictures from
blender.
His profile was reported to facebook, and he was kicked from that group.
Scarily enough their are tons, of people like that.

On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 2:30 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Nick -
>
>
> >
> > I  chatted up one of the callers.  I suggested that at a time of full
> > employment, perhaps a bright guy like him might get a better job.  He
> > replied that he was being paid quite well for his efforts!  Apparently
> > the number of any fool who answers their phone is worth $7
> Sounds like he got is money's worth on that call!
> > .
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Bing Chat vs ChatGPT

[Gillian Densmore]

On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 12:13 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I've read that Bing Chat is now available for everyone in this blog post..
> https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2023/03/14/Binging
>
> ..and it really seems to be available now for everyone. I have tried it
> and it feels horrible though. The overall experience is totally different
> from ChatGPT. Bing Chat is stubborn and repetitive. Do you remember Clippy
> the office assistant? Bing Chat is like Clippy: it is simply annoying. And
> if you say something that it doesn't like it aborts the conversation
> abruptly. Microsoft took something valuable and ruined it.
>
> -J.
> Aka MicrSoft as usual.
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Re: [FRIAM] Euler exploit

[Gillian Densmore]

lol how you put it reads like people putting together a band list and a
NSFW get together.
Person: ok The Multichain Bridges are for the really freeky people, Has
anyone heard from the Crypto Mixers? what about Soft Liquidation Logic that
hot new techno goth band?

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 7:10 AM glen  wrote:

> Euler attack causes locked tokens, losses in 11 DeFi protocols, including
> Balancer
>
> https://cointelegraph.com/news/euler-attack-causes-locked-tokens-losses-in-11-defi-protocols-including-balancer
>
> I'm so totally lost ... multichain bridges, crypto mixers, soft
> liquidation logic, 2/3 Gnosis Multisig, ?!?!? What in hell am I reading?
> Whippings with the clue stick welcome.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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[FRIAM] [off topic] exterminators for mice?

[Gillian Densmore]

Looking for a dude in the santa fe area that could help find hiding spots,
holes and blah blah that mice can use to get into the house.
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Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?

[Gillian Densmore]

 of the night, where are the lightswitches in
> this country and how do they work?), there clearly are whole sensory
> modalities that we have just taken for granted as long as we could. I have
> assumed that the audiovisual channel of watching a person say something was
> near the top of that list.
> >>
> >>  Clearly a few years ago, deepfakes suddenly took laziness off the
> table for that channel. The one help was that human-generated nonsense
> still takes human time, on which there is some limit.
> >>
> >>  But if we have machine-generated nonsense, delivered through
> machine-generated rendering, we can put whole servers onto it full-time.
> Sort of like bitcoin mining. Burn a lot of irreplaceable carbon fuel to
> generate something of no value and some significant social cost.
> >>
> >>  So I assume there is some component of the society that is bored
> and already doing this (?)
> >>
> >>  Eric
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Feb 28, 2023, at 9:10 PM, Gillian Densmore <
> gil.densm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>  This john oliver piece might either amus, and or mortify you.
> >>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4_channel=LastWeekTonight <
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4_channel=LastWeekTonight>
> >>
> >>  On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 4:00 PM Gillian Densmore <
> gil.densm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 2:06 PM Jochen Fromm <
> j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
> >>  The "Transformer" movies are like the "Resident evil" movies
> based on a similar idea: we take a simple, almost primitive story such as
> "cars that can transform into alien robots" or "a bloody fight against a
> zombie apocalypse" and throw lots of money at it.
> >>
> >>  But maybe deep learning and large language models are the
> same: we take a simple idea (gradient descent learning for deep neural
> networks) and throw lots of money (and data) at it. In this sense
> transformer is a perfect name of the architecture, isn't it?
> >>
> >>  -J.
> >>  樂
> >>
> >>   Original message 
> >>  From: Gillian Densmore 
> >>  Date: 2/28/23 1:47 AM (GMT+01:00)
> >>  To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> >>  
> >>  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?
> >>
> >>  Transformer architecture works because it's cybertronian
> technology. And is so advanced as to be almost magic.
> >>
> >>  On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:51 PM Jochen Fromm <
> j...@cas-group.net> wrote:
> >>  Terrence Sejnowski argues that the new AI super chatbots are
> like a magic Harry Potter mirror that tells the user what he wants to hear:
> "When people discover the mirror, it seems to provide truth and
> understanding. But it does not. It shows the deep-seated desires of anyone
> who stares into it". ChatGPT, LaMDA, LLaMA and other large language models
> would "take in our words and reflect them back to us".
> >>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/26/technology/ai-chatbot-information-t <
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/26/technology/ai-chatbot-information-t>
> >>  ruth.html
> >>
> >>  It is true that large language models have absorbed
> unimaginably huge amount of texts, but what if our prefrontal cortex in the
> brain works in the same way?
> >>
> https://direct.mit.edu/neco/article/35/3/309/114731/Large-Language-Mod <
> https://direct.mit.edu/neco/article/35/3/309/114731/Large-Language-Mod>
> >>  els-and-the-Reverse-Turing-Test
> >>
> >>  I think it is possible that the "transformer" architecture is
> so
> >>  successful because it is - like the cortical columns in the
> neocortex
> >>  - a modular solution for the problem what comes next in an
> >>  unpredictable world
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_column <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_column>
> >>
> >>  -J.
> >>
> >
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?

[Gillian Densmore]

This john oliver piece might either amus, and or mortify you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqa8Zo2XWc4_channel=LastWeekTonight

On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 4:00 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 2:06 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> The "Transformer" movies are like the "Resident evil" movies based on a
>> similar idea: we take a simple, almost primitive story such as "cars that
>> can transform into alien robots" or "a bloody fight against a zombie
>> apocalypse" and throw lots of money at it.
>>
>> But maybe deep learning and large language models are the same: we take a
>> simple idea (gradient descent learning for deep neural networks) and throw
>> lots of money (and data) at it. In this sense transformer is a perfect name
>> of the architecture, isn't it?
>>
>> -J.
>> 樂
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Gillian Densmore 
>> Date: 2/28/23 1:47 AM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?
>>
>> Transformer architecture works because it's cybertronian technology. And
>> is so advanced as to be almost magic.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:51 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>>> Terrence Sejnowski argues that the new AI super chatbots are like a
>>> magic Harry Potter mirror that tells the user what he wants to hear: "When
>>> people discover the mirror, it seems to provide truth and understanding.
>>> But it does not. It shows the deep-seated desires of anyone who stares into
>>> it". ChatGPT, LaMDA, LLaMA and other large language models would "take in
>>> our words and reflect them back to us".
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/26/technology/ai-chatbot-information-truth.html
>>>
>>> It is true that large language models have absorbed unimaginably huge
>>> amount of texts, but what if our prefrontal cortex in the brain works in
>>> the same way?
>>>
>>> https://direct.mit.edu/neco/article/35/3/309/114731/Large-Language-Models-and-the-Reverse-Turing-Test
>>>
>>> I think it is possible that the "transformer" architecture is so
>>> successful because it is - like the cortical columns in the neocortex - a
>>> modular solution for the problem what comes next in an unpredictable world
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_column
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
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>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?

[Gillian Densmore]

On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 2:06 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> The "Transformer" movies are like the "Resident evil" movies based on a
> similar idea: we take a simple, almost primitive story such as "cars that
> can transform into alien robots" or "a bloody fight against a zombie
> apocalypse" and throw lots of money at it.
>
> But maybe deep learning and large language models are the same: we take a
> simple idea (gradient descent learning for deep neural networks) and throw
> lots of money (and data) at it. In this sense transformer is a perfect name
> of the architecture, isn't it?
>
> -J.
> 樂
>
>  Original message 
> From: Gillian Densmore 
> Date: 2/28/23 1:47 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?
>
> Transformer architecture works because it's cybertronian technology. And
> is so advanced as to be almost magic.
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:51 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> Terrence Sejnowski argues that the new AI super chatbots are like a magic
>> Harry Potter mirror that tells the user what he wants to hear: "When people
>> discover the mirror, it seems to provide truth and understanding. But it
>> does not. It shows the deep-seated desires of anyone who stares into it".
>> ChatGPT, LaMDA, LLaMA and other large language models would "take in our
>> words and reflect them back to us".
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/26/technology/ai-chatbot-information-truth.html
>>
>> It is true that large language models have absorbed unimaginably huge
>> amount of texts, but what if our prefrontal cortex in the brain works in
>> the same way?
>>
>> https://direct.mit.edu/neco/article/35/3/309/114731/Large-Language-Models-and-the-Reverse-Turing-Test
>>
>> I think it is possible that the "transformer" architecture is so
>> successful because it is - like the cortical columns in the neocortex - a
>> modular solution for the problem what comes next in an unpredictable world
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_column
>>
>> -J.
>>
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>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] Magic Harry Potter mirrors or more?

[Gillian Densmore]

Transformer architecture works because it's cybertronian technology. And is
so advanced as to be almost magic.

On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 3:51 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Terrence Sejnowski argues that the new AI super chatbots are like a magic
> Harry Potter mirror that tells the user what he wants to hear: "When people
> discover the mirror, it seems to provide truth and understanding. But it
> does not. It shows the deep-seated desires of anyone who stares into it".
> ChatGPT, LaMDA, LLaMA and other large language models would "take in our
> words and reflect them back to us".
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/26/technology/ai-chatbot-information-truth.html
>
> It is true that large language models have absorbed unimaginably huge
> amount of texts, but what if our prefrontal cortex in the brain works in
> the same way?
>
> https://direct.mit.edu/neco/article/35/3/309/114731/Large-Language-Models-and-the-Reverse-Turing-Test
>
> I think it is possible that the "transformer" architecture is so
> successful because it is - like the cortical columns in the neocortex - a
> modular solution for the problem what comes next in an unpredictable world
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortical_column
>
> -J.
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT knows FRIAM

[Gillian Densmore]

just for grins I tried asking chatgpt to make a guess where Atlantis was.
it went in circles and wouldn't even hazard a guess. Though, I thought one
of the more likely inspirations came from a mixture of  Minoa,Crete, and
ancient spain. Though plato puts even me to shame as a world class BSer.


On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 5:49 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> FWIW when I asked ChatGPT about a fundraiser/just good fun called
> "Karoling with a Klingon." I have hosted for many years up to covid. It got
> the part about singing in Klingon and that it was a regular thing dead on.
> But where it went off the rails a bit was claiming it was a record. That is
> unless one of the numerous attendees have recoded it and I hadn't noticed.
> It did say it has to go through the internet, I did, however, get a plug
> once from a solo singer ("the klingon pop warrior"). And I think she has
> done a record. My guess is that it tries to google/equivilant. That
> sumerises what it finds. and kind of mashes it together.
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 3:51 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> I'd say ChatGPT knows FriAM at least as well as Dr. Strangelove
>> <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> does ( though he's been pretty easy
>> on us the last few years ).
>>
>> I found myself trying to parse bits of ChatGPT's response.
>>
>> To begin, not only do I not know of any project or effort at SFI entitled
>> "Focusing Research on Infinite Automated Models" but Dr. Google doesn't
>> seem to have found any reference to such a group.  This makes me think that
>> ChatGPT recognized FRIAM as an acronym and fished around in the
>> concept-linguistic-space of the *prominent* scientific institution (SFI)
>> related Santa Fe.   I don't know what to think about how it parsed out
>> "Infinite Automated" into "infinite dimensional" models?   The whole
>> passage suggests to me that ChatGPT's prime goal Is in fact to generate
>> *credible* or *plausable* narratives rather than accurate ones?
>>
>> Fascinating that the specific binding of specifically named FriAM
>> luminaries to specific roles at specific institutions associated with Santa
>> Fe.  Without doing the research to find Dopplynms within those
>> organizations, I'm pretty sure that at least Wimberly and Ropella are
>> uncommon enough names so as not to have parallels at LANL and Descartes.
>> This supports my feeling that ChatGPT is tuned for "plausability" over
>> other utility functions...
>>
>> This aligns with the implications of Glen's reference to the distinction
>> between bullshitting and lying.   ChatGPT is a definitely a strident
>> bullshitter.  But then most scriptwriters, showrunners, and directors in
>> Hollywood and too many politicians can be considered that way as well?
>>
>> The general conception of FriAM as a rolling group of participants is at
>> least superficially accurate, though I don't see that we have that much
>> turnover, nor does ChatGPT seem to recognize that our physical meetups
>> are/were the tip of the iceberg (tail of the dog) for the last umpteen
>> years...
>>
>> Also without looking I didn't know that there is a Nick Thompson who is
>> Editor-in-Chief of Wired, but take it for granted that this level of
>> specificity in the face of Wired Mag. being not particularly correlated
>> with Santa Fe suggests there IS and the BS factor comes in by being willing
>> to *assert* that these are the same Nick Thompson's with only the thinnest
>> of circumstantial evidence.
>>
>> The Eric Charles reference also seems specific enough to suggest that
>> there is a true dopplenym there.
>>
>> I was surprised by the error-of-attribution ChatGPT made to itself,
>> accusing itself of transposing "Vital" with "Mental" rather than to Jochen?
>>
>> Very well curated, interesting and relevant ChatGPT anecdote Jochen!
>>
>>
>> Me: Do you know the FRIAM group in Santa Fe?
>> ChatGPT: Yes, I'm aware of the FRIAM group in Santa Fe. FRIAM (Focusing
>> Research on Infinite Automated Models) is a research group located at the
>> Santa Fe Institute, a renowned research center dedicated to the study of
>> complex systems. FRIAM is a group of interdisciplinary researchers who
>> explore the use of mathematical models and computational methods to
>> understand complex systems and phenomena, with a focus on
>> infinite-dimensional systems. The group's research interests include
>> dynamical systems, machine learning, optimization, and more. FRIAM's work
>> has contributed to a deeper understanding of various sy

Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT knows FRIAM

[Gillian Densmore]

FWIW when I asked ChatGPT about a fundraiser/just good fun called "Karoling
with a Klingon." I have hosted for many years up to covid. It got the part
about singing in Klingon and that it was a regular thing dead on. But where
it went off the rails a bit was claiming it was a record. That is unless
one of the numerous attendees have recoded it and I hadn't noticed. It did
say it has to go through the internet, I did, however, get a plug once from
a solo singer ("the klingon pop warrior"). And I think she has done a
record. My guess is that it tries to google/equivilant. That sumerises what
it finds. and kind of mashes it together.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 3:51 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> I'd say ChatGPT knows FriAM at least as well as Dr. Strangelove
>  does ( though he's been pretty easy on
> us the last few years ).
>
> I found myself trying to parse bits of ChatGPT's response.
>
> To begin, not only do I not know of any project or effort at SFI entitled
> "Focusing Research on Infinite Automated Models" but Dr. Google doesn't
> seem to have found any reference to such a group.  This makes me think that
> ChatGPT recognized FRIAM as an acronym and fished around in the
> concept-linguistic-space of the *prominent* scientific institution (SFI)
> related Santa Fe.   I don't know what to think about how it parsed out
> "Infinite Automated" into "infinite dimensional" models?   The whole
> passage suggests to me that ChatGPT's prime goal Is in fact to generate
> *credible* or *plausable* narratives rather than accurate ones?
>
> Fascinating that the specific binding of specifically named FriAM
> luminaries to specific roles at specific institutions associated with Santa
> Fe.  Without doing the research to find Dopplynms within those
> organizations, I'm pretty sure that at least Wimberly and Ropella are
> uncommon enough names so as not to have parallels at LANL and Descartes.
> This supports my feeling that ChatGPT is tuned for "plausability" over
> other utility functions...
>
> This aligns with the implications of Glen's reference to the distinction
> between bullshitting and lying.   ChatGPT is a definitely a strident
> bullshitter.  But then most scriptwriters, showrunners, and directors in
> Hollywood and too many politicians can be considered that way as well?
>
> The general conception of FriAM as a rolling group of participants is at
> least superficially accurate, though I don't see that we have that much
> turnover, nor does ChatGPT seem to recognize that our physical meetups
> are/were the tip of the iceberg (tail of the dog) for the last umpteen
> years...
>
> Also without looking I didn't know that there is a Nick Thompson who is
> Editor-in-Chief of Wired, but take it for granted that this level of
> specificity in the face of Wired Mag. being not particularly correlated
> with Santa Fe suggests there IS and the BS factor comes in by being willing
> to *assert* that these are the same Nick Thompson's with only the thinnest
> of circumstantial evidence.
>
> The Eric Charles reference also seems specific enough to suggest that
> there is a true dopplenym there.
>
> I was surprised by the error-of-attribution ChatGPT made to itself,
> accusing itself of transposing "Vital" with "Mental" rather than to Jochen?
>
> Very well curated, interesting and relevant ChatGPT anecdote Jochen!
>
>
> Me: Do you know the FRIAM group in Santa Fe?
> ChatGPT: Yes, I'm aware of the FRIAM group in Santa Fe. FRIAM (Focusing
> Research on Infinite Automated Models) is a research group located at the
> Santa Fe Institute, a renowned research center dedicated to the study of
> complex systems. FRIAM is a group of interdisciplinary researchers who
> explore the use of mathematical models and computational methods to
> understand complex systems and phenomena, with a focus on
> infinite-dimensional systems. The group's research interests include
> dynamical systems, machine learning, optimization, and more. FRIAM's work
> has contributed to a deeper understanding of various systems, such as
> financial markets, climate models, and biological systems, among others.
>
> Me: No, I mean the Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group. It is
> organization of complexity researchers and software developers in Santa Fe,
> New Mexico, interested in applied complexity
>
> ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion. Yes, I'm also aware of the Friday
> Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group in Santa Fe. It is a group of
> complexity researchers and software developers who meet on Friday mornings
> to discuss and explore topics related to applied complexity. The group is
> open to anyone who is interested in the subject and is often attended by
> researchers, academics, entrepreneurs, and professionals from a variety of
> fields. The discussions at the group cover a wide range of topics,
> including complex systems, data science, artificial intelligence, and more.
> The group provides a forum for 

Re: [FRIAM] what do philosophers call feline roadkill?

[Gillian Densmore]

Oh yeah nick:
What do pirates be doing for fun?
Paaartying. har har har har.

On Thu, Feb 16, 2023 at 9:55 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> A category.
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Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT is not very smart...

[Gillian Densmore]

FWIW I think I read on reddit someplace chatGPT was made to be more family
friendly after people used it to write way less than family friendly
fanfictions. so stuff like F^^^ Sh*.* etc*.* .  Would be included in chat.
I think it's a hoot it's not just this popular. But also decently able to
have a convo. Now the Matrix would argue that it's a machine trying to
become sentient. With all the cons. and pros that come with it.
Do we know if (or when) MS buys it, that they'll further it's training?
Scarily enough I might prefer MS over Google because of their ADHD.

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 11:05 PM Russ Abbott  wrote:

> Thanks for the pointer to this article. I found the new Bing chat engine
> quite impressive. To a surprising extent it felt like the author was
> interacting with an actual human being. The following brief exchange
> doesn't sound or feel like it was generated by stringing together words
> found during training. This was a part of the conversation in which the
> author accused the Bing chat engine of defaming him. He is claiming that
> the misinformation he was given (about an article he had written) was
> "published" and hence subject to libel laws.
>
> [image: image.png]
>
> -- Russ
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 11:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think it is necessarily the case a very large neural net would
>> need to backtrack.   It could devote more and more resources to different
>> hypotheses so long as it was not energy constrained.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Santafe
>> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 3:11 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT is not very smart...
>>
>> So probably this has all been analyzed to death already, by people who,
>> unlike me, know what they are talking about.
>>
>> But in re-reading it, I feel like the structure of the problem is
>> characterizable.
>>
>> It is as if “facts” that are constraints on the sentences to be composed
>> are ordered in a way that is somewhat like lexicographic ordering.
>>
>> Lexicographically, azzz is before zaaa; no subsequent letters
>> even get consideration (much less the set of them all in aggregate), until
>> the first letter has dictated as much of the sorting as its values can
>> index.
>>
>> Likewise, somewhere chatGPT was stuck in a local valley, where there was
>> a “fact” that a particular list of two states is “the core of the answer”
>> to this set of questions, and membership in the list is the first condition
>> in a selection-tree for replies.  However tortured, the following sentences
>> have to operate within a reality that has already been truncated by the
>> “first fact”.
>>
>> (Again, since this is obvious, my even belaboring it is kind of dull once
>> I see it on the page.)
>>
>> Come to think of it, it reminds me too of Vygotsky’s claim that children
>> first assign category terms by what he called “family resemblances”, and
>> only later at the age where some developmental threshold is crossed, do
>> they form “predicates” in the sense we would use the term in langauge
>> semantics.  “Family resemblances” can be, effectively, anything, are very
>> idiosyncratic to the experiential history of any particular
>> child-in-context, and in that sense are fragile categories.  The
>> distinction in predicates, once they emerge, is that they seem to be much
>> less fragile, which amounts to being exchangeable across thinkers and
>> across situations for a single thinker.
>>
>> As predicates, membership-in-a-list, letter-count, being-a-state-name,
>> are of quite unlike types.  As there is a kind of Venn-diagram intersection
>> logic that can be applied to letter-count and being-a-state-name, which
>> does not exist in general form for membership in arbitrary lists, we learn
>> that the latter predicates should get priority in navigating streams of
>> thoughts and of sentences.  But if, to chatGPT, those are not yet
>> predicates, but rather various modes of family resemblance, all comparably
>> eligible, one can scan how a dialog of the below form would be a derivable
>> outcome.
>>
>> If that is the right analysis, the step of getting stuck in a pre-emptive
>> membership-in-a-list commitment is not the revealing, or by that criterion
>> the interesting, part of the dialog below.  The interesting part becomes
>> the suddenly much-higher need for “cleverness”, to find flowing sentences
>> that can be forced to the far side of an unresolvable contradiction.  It’s
>> like my laptop, when some internet-check-in step becomes unsatisfiable, and
>> it will dump more and more CPU into trying to do something that got
>> mis-configured, the fan ramps up, and this will spiral indefinitely until I
>> stop what I am doing to kill the offending process.  One can imagine that
>> “learning” what predicates “are”, that they “have” logics, and what those
>> logics “are”, is a feedback loop of trying to avoid the mental 

[FRIAM] Morning Coffee thought: Good time for global warming bingo

[Gillian Densmore]

So far: hurricanes,
Extreme weather
Tornadoes,
Monsoons-
All in January.
LoL anything else to add to the global warming weather list?
Sidenote: just one more reason I avoid driving.
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Re: [FRIAM] [off topic] Bank of america problems

[Gillian Densmore]

For SnG's  asked chatgpt. it (erroneously ?) thinks credit unions are
marginally more accountable then the big banks. It does, however, note no
one has anything good to say about BofA.

For even more grins a short snippet for peoples enjoyment:

console.log("Banks are Dicks. And it's fine to hate them");

It warns that "using offensive language can be considered illegal in
coding". Me wonders if someone got the researchers in trouble.

On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 3:35 PM Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> One more bank story. About 35 years ago, 1987 I think, we were owed
> $40,000 by a German company that had developed a keyboard with programmable
> LCD symbols in the keys. We had a word processor for mathematics which
> allowed the user to design new characters. We handled the display and
> printing of the symbols, but we couldn’t change the keyboard symbols, so
> this company seemed like a good fit. Normally we required all our overseas
> distributors to pay us with a remote deposit to our account, but this
> company sent us checks.
>
> I took them to Citizens Bank in Las Cruces, and weeks later, they still
> hadn’t cleared. In the meantime, IBM announced their new PS/2, Which in
> retrospect was a non-event, but the German company’s investors panicked,
> and they went into bankruptcy.
>
> We were left holding an empty bag.
>
> —Barry
>
> On 10 Jan 2023, at 15:34, glen wrote:
>
> I can't answer directly. But I can tell a story. A non-profit I'm involved
> with tried and failed to open a bank account at BofA. The bureaucratic
> rigmarole they put us through was intense. 2 of us officers had something
> like 10 different conversations with 2 bureaucrats at 2 of their locations.
> And their defense boiled down to a combination of "The Government" and "to
> protect our customers", including tangents about the Patriot Act and all
> sorts of nonsense. We finally went down the (metaphorical) street to US
> Bank and opened the account lickety split with no hassle at all.
>
> What can you do about it? Maybe ditch BofA for a better organization. I'd
> recommend a (local) credit union. But a bank that gives a shit about local
> businesses (e.g. US Bank) would be a good alternative. If you need the ease
> of international banking, then maybe you're out of luck. But Trump had good
> success with Deutsche Bank. They seem to play fast and loose. >8^D
>
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Re: [FRIAM] [off topic] Bank of america problems

[Gillian Densmore]

I think you were on the phone with me! I called them up today to see what
the problem was. They said more or less the samethings they told you. They
also added "have to collect the funds" to the list of nonsense. It's a
check from first national that's physically speaking just around the corner
of a few branch. I got reely miffed and upset. Like it took a lot of effort
to not curse, yell or breakdown. The entire list of officers and front desk
types all towed the same line that came down to they don't want to work
better. The weird thing is the money itself is better than good because
it's both from the goverment  and a bank (physically speaking) right  next
to them in a few locations. Oh for me they also added: "protecting your
creddit and ensure it has enhanced standing" . Collecting funds? RLY, if
that were true a dude could go to the other side of devargis mall and say
to the bank the check on the uh check run it by them with a secret see you
for beer handshake or something. I feel somewhat confident if first
national santa fe nm  part of the SunFlower brand of banks was hard up for
money we'd read about it in the news.
Anyway thanks Glen.

On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 1:34 PM glen  wrote:

> I can't answer directly. But I can tell a story. A non-profit I'm involved
> with tried and failed to open a bank account at BofA. The bureaucratic
> rigmarole they put us through was intense. 2 of us officers had something
> like 10 different conversations with 2 bureaucrats at 2 of their locations.
> And their defense boiled down to a combination of "The Government" and "to
> protect our customers", including tangents about the Patriot Act and all
> sorts of nonsense. We finally went down the (metaphorical) street to US
> Bank and opened the account lickety split with no hassle at all.
>
> What can you do about it? Maybe ditch BofA for a better organization. I'd
> recommend a (local) credit union. But a bank that gives a shit about local
> businesses (e.g. US Bank) would be a good alternative. If you need the ease
> of international banking, then maybe you're out of luck. But Trump had good
> success with Deutsche Bank. They seem to play fast and loose. >8^D
>
> On 1/10/23 09:37, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > Another off topic, but I don't know to many large lists of people that
> might have some ideas to help.
> > In short I get a check from family to help cover grocery bills  weeks
> from first national here in santa fe. That is then deposisted at bank of
> america. For a while everything was going well. then Bank of America 2
> weeks ago put a hold on one check. and then a check I tried to deposit on
> monday.
> >
> >
> >
> > What in the actual f***x.
> > Mom (dede) and owen (my dad) and me (gil) are beyond angry and
> infuriated at this development, Is their anything meengful I can do on my
> end? Why would they do that out of the blue? and is their anything to be
> done about it?
> >
> >
> > Or is it just a depressing case of banks do that because they can? I
> needed that money to get groceries FFS.
> >
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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[FRIAM] [off topic] Bank of america problems

[Gillian Densmore]

Another off topic, but I don't know to many large lists of people that
might have some ideas to help.
In short I get a check from family to help cover grocery bills  weeks from
first national here in santa fe. That is then deposisted at bank of
america. For a while everything was going well. then Bank of America 2
weeks ago put a hold on one check. and then a check I tried to deposit on
monday.



What in the actual f***x.
Mom (dede) and owen (my dad) and me (gil) are beyond angry and
infuriated at this development, Is their anything meengful I can do on my
end? Why would they do that out of the blue? and is their anything to be
done about it?


Or is it just a depressing case of banks do that because they can? I needed
that money to get groceries FFS.
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[FRIAM] Wtf. Is going on with pnm

[Gillian Densmore]

No power all gd. Day and those Slackware. Penis breaths keep fing. With
when I get my gd. Lights back.
Can we pls fire them.?
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[FRIAM] Off topic home repair Q

[Gillian Densmore]

I think my google-fu skills are failing. I'm looking for track lighting
fixtures for bulbs propper. Ie not the track. just what makes light.  Alas
between home depot, amazon, and lows I can't find many that take
lightbulbs. much less for my type of track.
Anyone have experience with this?
I'm looking for ones that'd fit a cam that uses 3 prints in kind of a
sideways field-goal for football shape.
I ask because out of the blue 4 of 6 bulbs on monday went out all at once.
Amazon has a lot that combine light+thing to hold it in place as compared
to fixture and lightbulb being separate.
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Re: [FRIAM] keep getting mice.

[Gillian Densmore]

 any case too hard to try to
>> eliminate.   With the new finish it was just the opposite, and
>> thoughtlessly, the walnut-oil surface in the process of (many months long)
>> curing fully was a terrible attractive nuisance.I think the little
>> buggers thought it was a buffet laid just for them.  We had evidence of
>> quite a few mice living in there and even when we were catching and
>> expelling one per night, there was a never ending supply.   There were
>> nominally *no* holes for them to get in, but if you've seen my construction
>> techniques you might not be surprised to find that I actually *did* have a
>> few *hidden* weak spots where they might have entered.   Our 20 year old
>> cat had gone blind the Fall before (quite gracefully) and finally passed
>> away on her own that winter... so no more mouser or even the whiff of a
>> threat of a mouser in the house.
>>
>>  We then went away for 2 months with several different house-sitters in
>> the house who had not instruction nor reason to try to keep up with the
>> mouse flux.  Besides, I was used to mouse-infestation being entirely a
>> winter-time phenomena.   When we returned mid-summer I sat in the living
>> room with the final house-sitter who was scheduled to leave the next day
>> and I sequentially set, caught/released 6 mice in the space of a couple of
>> hours.   The trap was just outside the room we were sitting in and I could
>> see the little buggers playing chase on the floors, bancos, furniture as
>> well as dancing over the top of the trap and teasing their way in and out
>> of the trap before finally springing it.   I went on to catch several each
>> evening (at twilight and beyond) until we were down to rarely seeing more
>> than two chasing through the room... and catching one per night.   Hole
>> after potential hole was plugged during this time.   And yet they keep
>> coming.   There is a chance these are recycling, we haven't gone to the
>> effort of notching their ears or painting their tails or anything.   My
>> experience in this environment is that there will always be dozens
>> (hundreds) of field mice aspiring to become house-mice... so killing (or
>> hauling far away) the ones we catch probably doesn't change that much.   I
>> now wish I hadn't moved the three bullsnakes I caught eating eggs in our
>> chicken coop across the rio grande, but invited them to live in the
>> sunroom... I think they are better (yet) mousers than a cat.
>>
>> We now have a fresh mouser who doesn't have continuous free access to the
>> sunroom (lest the buggers re-invade the house proper) but who does spend
>> time out there stalking the hell out of every nook and cranny... she hasn't
>> caught any yet (though she did help catch a few who had gotten into the
>> house before we could trap them).
>>
>> My best recommendation is to eliminate any food-attractive-nuisances
>> (refrigerator, cupboard, animal-tight containers, etc), make sure you have
>> no known extgerior wall-penetrations (even the tiniest cracks they seem to
>> squeeze through) and then go on a trapping frenzy...  clean up any trace of
>> mice ASAP so that you *know* if you have any left as you trap them down to
>> near zero.   And I recommend a housecat (or two), though I know some do not
>> like keeping cats.  Maybe a ferret or a schnauzer?  My best ever
>> Gopher-Getter was a weimerainer who would sit for hours at the entrance to
>> a gopher burrow just to grab one... if allowed, she might have cleaned them
>> entirely out of the yard.   We limited her time OCDing out in front of
>> gopher holes... it was hard to watch.
>>
>> Or maybe a bullsnake (or one of many other rodent-eating varieties)?
>> On 1/3/23 11:52 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I buy traps from Amazon a couple dozen at a time.
>>
>> ===
>> Tom Johnson
>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>> 505-577-6482
>> ===
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2023, 10:45 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Another surge of mice Q: For all of Dismember  i've had nothing but an
>>> ongoing trickle of mice. what the is going on here? Is anyone else having
>>> mice issues as well?
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Re: [FRIAM] keep getting mice.

[Gillian Densmore]

I think my aunts friend had one for a while. Aunt couldn't go to the house
after sometime because they're infamous for a musky, and generally strange
BO. My cat was awful about playing with what ever he was hunting! Turned
out he was a birder more so than a mouse cat. Partiall proven because he'd
happly snake my baked chicken for dinner if I didn't watch him. He also
would try to catch birds chasing a cat and birdS out of a house, and the
casita? about how I imagine it's like to caclulate and derive  orbital
dynamics by hand.
LOL and he also tried to catch a lil baby bat while ma'n pa where teaching
JR how to get bugs.JR found a rafter in the casita Imagine calling animal
control at 6 am with: uh yeah I have some bats in my house, and my cat
keeps trying to hunt them.
I'm pretty bad about just yeeting the trap into the trash. with everything
in it. while going: ew ewewewew Fdge!

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 3:21 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Gil -
>
> Ferrets can be very unpleasant to smell...  I had a stepdaughter who kept
> two (along with a half-dozen cats and gawd knows what other pet-hoarding my
> mind has blanked on over 30 years ago).   They also are totally nocturnal
> and will romp *all night*, especially if there are more than one (or have a
> cat or a dog to harass/play with).   I'm sure ferrets (if they get outside)
> are hell on birds (especially eggs?), housecats (if they get outside) can
> be pretty bad too.   I think Ferrets will consume their prey unlike cats
> who will play with them for hours and hours and then bring at least a
> partial carcass to you as a gift.  Snakes even more better at
> full-consumption,  I understand they can defer defecation until 99% is
> digested?...
>
> I'm too frugal to throw kill-traps away, but you could follow Tom's advice
> and I'd bet by the time you threw a dozen traps (with head-crushed mice in
> them) into the trash, you might be done with them (for this season)... or a
> handful of kill traps re-used nightly might rid you over a week's time.   I
> don't know how territorial they are but I get the feeling that I never have
> more than *one* family in my house when they do infiltrate...  but their
> reproduction rate is pretty extreme and one family can become dozens in a
> short time.
>
>
> On 1/3/23 2:47 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> Steve, those are all great tips. I'll run a fine tooth come through the
> house. Their's this area by the coffee maker at the front they try to hide
> in as well as I think somehow behind a rubermaid recycle bin. lol a ferret?
> not a bad idea. Kim swears by his pet cat for keeping mice out. LOL one of
> my doctors tells me how his pet beagle  chases mice around. I guess the
> pooch also OCD's on anything not Human and barks or tries to hunt them.
> I've read tht ferrets can make preem pets, as long as you can keep them
> from getting bored. I think Santa Fe isn't fond of people having them
> forpets something about birds.
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 2:18 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>
>> Gil -
>>
>>  To misquote Leonard Cohen: "There is a crack in everything, that is how
>> the mice get in".
>>
>> I have lived with mouse-flux all of my time in my current (rural)property
>> 20 years).  The mice (and ground squirrels and packrats) in the environs
>> require that I remain vigilant to keep them living outside my home.   This
>> has involved a lot of care around making sure that doors fit (and close)
>> tight and that any wall-penetrations (dryer vent, etc) be well
>> managed/screened, etc.
>>
>> Virtually *every* Fall I recognize that one or more mice have taken up
>> residence in some nook or cranny inside my house...  evidenced primarily by
>> foodstuffs nibbled on my counter and of course "droppings".  Sometimes the
>> sight or sound of scurrying.   If I trap these invaders quickly enough I
>> don't have a whole family (or several) and even worse, multiple generations
>> take up residence.   I've been a vegetarian most of my life but I still
>> would stoop to kill-traps to stop this business right away.  When Mary
>> moved here (5 years ago now) her (yet) softer heart lead me to buy a decent
>> no-kill trap which was limited to a single-catch per night nominally.   It
>> still worked.   Equally important for me has been to have a live
>> mousing-cat in the house... even though I've never had one catch/kill more
>> than one or two in a season, I think the presence and threat helps to
>> reduce the number of mice willing to force their way in when the
>> opportunity is found... I don't know if any voluntarily move back out once
>> they realize what they are facing.
>>
>> Last winter I finally buttoned up a sunroom I'd

Re: [FRIAM] keep getting mice.

[Gillian Densmore]

wilight and beyond) until we were down to rarely seeing more
>> than two chasing through the room... and catching one per night.   Hole
>> after potential hole was plugged during this time.   And yet they keep
>> coming.   There is a chance these are recycling, we haven't gone to the
>> effort of notching their ears or painting their tails or anything.   My
>> experience in this environment is that there will always be dozens
>> (hundreds) of field mice aspiring to become house-mice... so killing (or
>> hauling far away) the ones we catch probably doesn't change that much.   I
>> now wish I hadn't moved the three bullsnakes I caught eating eggs in our
>> chicken coop across the rio grande, but invited them to live in the
>> sunroom... I think they are better (yet) mousers than a cat.
>>
>> We now have a fresh mouser who doesn't have continuous free access to the
>> sunroom (lest the buggers re-invade the house proper) but who does spend
>> time out there stalking the hell out of every nook and cranny... she hasn't
>> caught any yet (though she did help catch a few who had gotten into the
>> house before we could trap them).
>>
>> My best recommendation is to eliminate any food-attractive-nuisances
>> (refrigerator, cupboard, animal-tight containers, etc), make sure you have
>> no known extgerior wall-penetrations (even the tiniest cracks they seem to
>> squeeze through) and then go on a trapping frenzy...  clean up any trace of
>> mice ASAP so that you *know* if you have any left as you trap them down to
>> near zero.   And I recommend a housecat (or two), though I know some do not
>> like keeping cats.  Maybe a ferret or a schnauzer?  My best ever
>> Gopher-Getter was a weimerainer who would sit for hours at the entrance to
>> a gopher burrow just to grab one... if allowed, she might have cleaned them
>> entirely out of the yard.   We limited her time OCDing out in front of
>> gopher holes... it was hard to watch.
>>
>> Or maybe a bullsnake (or one of many other rodent-eating varieties)?
>> On 1/3/23 11:52 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I buy traps from Amazon a couple dozen at a time.
>>
>> ===
>> Tom Johnson
>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>> 505-577-6482
>> ===
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2023, 10:45 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Another surge of mice Q: For all of Dismember  i've had nothing but an
>>> ongoing trickle of mice. what the is going on here? Is anyone else having
>>> mice issues as well?
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Re: [FRIAM] keep getting mice.

[Gillian Densmore]

use-mice... so killing (or
> hauling far away) the ones we catch probably doesn't change that much.   I
> now wish I hadn't moved the three bullsnakes I caught eating eggs in our
> chicken coop across the rio grande, but invited them to live in the
> sunroom... I think they are better (yet) mousers than a cat.
>
> We now have a fresh mouser who doesn't have continuous free access to the
> sunroom (lest the buggers re-invade the house proper) but who does spend
> time out there stalking the hell out of every nook and cranny... she hasn't
> caught any yet (though she did help catch a few who had gotten into the
> house before we could trap them).
>
> My best recommendation is to eliminate any food-attractive-nuisances
> (refrigerator, cupboard, animal-tight containers, etc), make sure you have
> no known extgerior wall-penetrations (even the tiniest cracks they seem to
> squeeze through) and then go on a trapping frenzy...  clean up any trace of
> mice ASAP so that you *know* if you have any left as you trap them down to
> near zero.   And I recommend a housecat (or two), though I know some do not
> like keeping cats.  Maybe a ferret or a schnauzer?  My best ever
> Gopher-Getter was a weimerainer who would sit for hours at the entrance to
> a gopher burrow just to grab one... if allowed, she might have cleaned them
> entirely out of the yard.   We limited her time OCDing out in front of
> gopher holes... it was hard to watch.
>
> Or maybe a bullsnake (or one of many other rodent-eating varieties)?
> On 1/3/23 11:52 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>
> Yeah, I buy traps from Amazon a couple dozen at a time.
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
>
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2023, 10:45 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Another surge of mice Q: For all of Dismember  i've had nothing but an
>> ongoing trickle of mice. what the is going on here? Is anyone else having
>> mice issues as well?
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[FRIAM] keep getting mice.

[Gillian Densmore]

Another surge of mice Q: For all of Dismember  i've had nothing but an
ongoing trickle of mice. what the is going on here? Is anyone else having
mice issues as well?
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Gillian Densmore]

Hey! anime is a good thing. Or at least that's what I tell myself with
guilty pleasure anime like HighSchool DXD. :P
now back to you glen and your rant. So what you're saying is: what the
actual [redacted]?  It's down to lipservices to fix the issue of people
going postal or snapping in some other awful way. Sure it'd be good for
them to take a look how some non-trivial amount of people are just hardly
putting food on the table. And be all like: we can either fund that stupid
wall or do a universal base income of so much a week for everyone. I think
the point of the opening question being open is in this odd thing normals
call: health in context. or what I call small talk while the dr. does paper
work . Some nothing burger thing to fill dead time. And believe me I'm not
great about bsing about myself either so you have my comiserations.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 10:50 AM glen  wrote:

> I've mostly been neutral about "the holidays". But as I age and my
> productivity tanks, I look upon all the little "reports" we get from
> friends and family with increasing sadness. It used to simply feel odd that
> "The So-and-so Family" year end report talked about how little Bobby has
> taken his amateur anime to new heights or whatever. But now it feels less
> odd, more normal ... and more digusting somehow. I guess it's a bit like
> the difference between the haughty _curriculum vitae_ and the more
> pedestrian, reflective, _résumé_.
>
> I went in for a "wellness check" with my GP group the other day. Don't ask
> me what they mean by "wellness check". I don't know. But because I don't
> really care which GP of the group sees me, this was a new one. She asked me
> that bane of the cocktail party question "Tell me about yourself." WTF?!? I
> *should* have said something like "I want to be an apocalyptic nomad and
> you breeder/settler types annoy the hell out of me." (She's pregnant with a
> 1st kid at home.) I might have, had we been at a cocktail party. Instead I
> just hemmed and hawed and asked her what she wanted to know, specifically.
> [sigh] It ended the typical way. You drink too much. You're too fat. Your
> cholesterol's too high. Yaddayaddayadda. Nothing to see here. Move along.
>
> I think the problem is I haven't been to a job interview in a while. Maybe
> that's what I should do this year ... try to line up a few job interviews
> so I'm forced to practice my narrative self elevator pitch.
>
> Happy New Year, y'all.
>
>
> On 12/30/22 16:36, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 12/30/22 1:32 PM, glen wrote:
> >> Interesting tangent. As always, I only post when I feel like I have
> something to disagree with (or fine-tune in a way that might seem
> contrarian). I feel like the closing on whim or choosing hours that may be
> inconvenient for a population is how we *should* do business. There's
> nothing more inhuman/inhumane than, say, shopping at Safeway at 2am because
> you *know* a multinational corporation is trying to squeeze that last blood
> from the market (and its employees).
> >>
> >> Convenience is one face of the Janus. Another is the optimized self ...
> e.g. tracking your footsteps to make sure you get them all in for the day
> ... or counting calories ... or Amazon-style, Taylorist "quantified self".
> *In*convenience is life. Attempts to avoid it are akin to suicide. And
> inconvenience is also pro-social. There's nothing more inconvenient than
> providing social support for a fellow human, sick puppy, or diseased
> ecosystem.
> >>
> >> So, when I see a "gone fishing" sign on a local business, I get a bit
> of a dopamine kick. Good for you, dude.
> >
> > It might also be worth noting that this "renormalization" leaves room
> for excellence...  surely there will be *some* small businesses and
> individuals who will excel by striving to expand or refine their "value
> proposition"...
> >
> > I can see silver linings throughout but I  think there will be "ringing"
> in many dimensions. As for me, I am happy with my new "lowered
> expectations" and even, as you suggest, can applaud a "gone fishing" sign...
> >
> > My own interests in optimization tend toward expanding circles of
> context... in my youth (at least into my 30s) the circle was rarely much
> larger than my self, my nuclear family, my neighborhood, my workplace.
> Nowadays it has become dizzyingly large and too often abstract... probably
> to the point of absurdity and ineffectuality.
> >
> >   It was safer and perhaps saner when I limited my optimization
> ideations to people and places I interacted with daily...   I also
> discovered "satisficing" vs "optimising"  in my 30s which was a significant
> relief, and allowed more degrees of freedom in my optimization/satisficing
> intentions/habits.
> >
> > "Good enough for who it's for" is a much better mantra, IMO than the
> usual "... for government work".
> >
> >>
> >> On 12/30/22 12:16, Steve Smith wrote:
> >>>
>  OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is 

[FRIAM] perplexed and frustrated by inflation

[Gillian Densmore]

I am having bad flash backs to the 80s when (us) inflation and day to day
living costs were unreal. Is the main culprits really down to supply and
demand? This is coming from constant sticker shock at day to day stuff. For
instance in a surreal twist: it's now cheaper for me use insta cart than
refill on gas.
Do we have any clue how much longer inflation and the joys of fragile
complex supply chains will, frankly, constantly truck people?
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday AM

[Gillian Densmore]

(insert a stupid joke about tomorrow being saturday)

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 10:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> I'll meet you at saveur
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:37 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> OPT Cafe is closed as well. What a way to run a business this is peak
>> Family dining out Time.  John Dobson and I are headed to Saveur which we
>> have confirmed to be open. It's at the corner of Galileo and cerrillos Road
>> downtown. It's next to the new courthouse.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm heading to Pecos Trail Cafe.  Gorge will appreciate us coming.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2022, 9:05 AM Frank Wimberly 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 To my surprise St John's Peterson Center is locked. I've never seen
 that before

 As an alternative I'm wondering about the Old Pecos trail Cafe which is
 on Old Pecos trail just south of Zia Road. They have excellent food and
 coffee and lots of room it's about halfway between my house and John
 Dobson's house.  I'll wait till someone else arrives at St John's as a
 sanity check and then probably head for Old Pecos trail Cafe. If anything
 changes I'll send another email.

 Frank


 ---
 Frank C. Wimberly
 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
 Santa Fe, NM 87505

 505 670-9918
 Santa Fe, NM

 On Thu, Dec 29, 2022, 8:43 PM Frank Wimberly 
 wrote:

> Is anyone planning to be at St John's tomorrow morning?
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

[Gillian Densmore]

Hmmm. Are we? I am skeptical it is. Ok so if it's not...how would we even
check? Gravity lensing and guesstimate?

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:18 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> Ah, but are we sure the expansion IS uniform?
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 10:01 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> AH! egad, that's so large and far away I can almost get my head around
>> it. lol no wonder we want infra-red. that's practically going backwards by
>> then
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:57 AM Roger Frye  wrote:
>>
>>> They are shifted so far to the red that when they reach us, they are
>>> stop lights.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 9:42 AM Gillian Densmore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so
>>>> it'd be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the
>>>> show because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows
>>>> more about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw
>>>> it's the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In aj NYTimes article:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
>>>>> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
>>>>> millennia".
>>>>>
>>>>> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
>>>>> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
>>>>> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than 
>>>>> light.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Owen
>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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>>>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

[Gillian Densmore]

AH! egad, that's so large and far away I can almost get my head around it.
lol no wonder we want infra-red. that's practically going backwards by then

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:57 AM Roger Frye  wrote:

> They are shifted so far to the red that when they reach us, they are stop
> lights.
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 9:42 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so
>> it'd be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the
>> show because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows
>> more about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw
>> it's the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In aj NYTimes article:
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
>>> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
>>> millennia".
>>>
>>> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
>>> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
>>> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>>>
>>> -- Owen
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

[Gillian Densmore]

(using a bad analogy) and those photons record what's going on like a on
going WEBB stream? so we now have essentially the ability to see old
streams (as it were) from photons any anything else that can get a snippet
of that. and basically light  does take time to show up.  it's not exactly
instant on the galatic scale (see also: Relativity). and so by the time
WEBB or any other other telescopes s mirrors cameras and blah blah blah
send that to our eyes those photons are now old reeely old. And the grand
expansion is  fast enough to go faster then light? or is it because the
universe is stupendously big. so it takes a while to get to where we can
snag some photons?

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:49 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> My guess:  stars, including the Sun, are constantly producing and emitting
> new photons.  This happens as a result of fusion and other processes.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022, 9:21 AM Owen Densmore  wrote:
>
>> In aj NYTimes article:
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
>> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
>> millennia".
>>
>> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
>> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
>> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>>
>> -- Owen
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] The WEBB seeing back to the first millennia

[Gillian Densmore]

Same Q! My guess is what they meen is that stuff is reely far away so it'd
be like looking at events that had happened but we can catchup to the show
because of distance somehow due to lag essentially. Someone that knows more
about this then I do hopefully has a much more concrete answer. Fwiw it's
the kind of things that keeps NDGT ( Niel DeGrasse Tyson) up lol

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 10:21 AM Owen Densmore  wrote:

> In aj NYTimes article:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/27/science/astronomy-webb-telescope.html
> ..there is the usual discussion on "seeing back to the first several
> millennia".
>
> But, and be kind, why haven't these photons already sped past us? I
> suppose it is because the exanssion is uniformly everywhere, we just kept
> ahead of them? That seems unlikely given the expansion is slower than light.
>
> -- Owen
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Didn't Tessela have steampunk level ideas his coild could charge flying
machines somehow? We have static driven motors already. They lack umpf
though.

On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 10:08 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Don't give him ideas. He's gone more off the deep end than usual.
>
> On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 11:01 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 12/23/22 7:47 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>>
>> Instead of a cable - maybe Tesla’s unrealized broadcast technology? I
>> don’t remember the details but he was going to send power from Long Island,
>> via the ionosphere, to light the world expo in Paris.
>>
>> How could that ever go wrong?
>>
>> What kinds of upgrades do the tinfoil hat crowds need for that?
>> Constantly driving ground spikes and clipping-in to plumbing wherever you
>> go?
>>
>> A little modulation and maybe lightning (aka semi-directed energy) could
>> be weaponized?
>>
>> Musk probably has a plan to integrate this into his Super(Duper) charging
>> network.
>>
>> Forget Jewish Space Lasers, Afrikaaner Particle Beams R' US !
>>
>> HAARP: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.3032
>>
>> Jet Lightning:
>> https://www.gtri.gatech.edu/newsroom/new-research-will-study-mysterious-effects-gigantic-jet-lightning
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Don't give him ideas. He's gone more off the deep end than usual.

On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 11:01 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 12/23/22 7:47 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>
> Instead of a cable - maybe Tesla’s unrealized broadcast technology? I
> don’t remember the details but he was going to send power from Long Island,
> via the ionosphere, to light the world expo in Paris.
>
> How could that ever go wrong?
>
> What kinds of upgrades do the tinfoil hat crowds need for that?
> Constantly driving ground spikes and clipping-in to plumbing wherever you
> go?
>
> A little modulation and maybe lightning (aka semi-directed energy) could
> be weaponized?
>
> Musk probably has a plan to integrate this into his Super(Duper) charging
> network.
>
> Forget Jewish Space Lasers, Afrikaaner Particle Beams R' US !
>
> HAARP: https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.3032
>
> Jet Lightning:
> https://www.gtri.gatech.edu/newsroom/new-research-will-study-mysterious-effects-gigantic-jet-lightning
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] For Steve Smith eta all re gadgets reviewing

[Gillian Densmore]

t.  My rocket-mass
> stove is pretty happy eating typical yard-waste, I don't want to spoil it
> with high-test plastic!
>
> On my trip to EU I upgraded the fairly lame solar-rechargeable 6500 mAh
> battery packs to 30k versions suitable for multiple phone recharges and
> even driving a heated travel blanket.   I have been handing out $5 bills,
> chocolate bars, and hand-toe warmers to folks flying signs on the street
> and I *hope* one of them can make good use of on of these (now 10+ year
> old) power banks even though they A) barely top up a half-empty
> contemporary cell phone, and B) take several days of full sun to recharge
> without plugging into a USB source.   I do have an older Android whose,
> battery is only good for an hour or two I suppose I could pair with one of
> these...  I haven't been able to get the 2 hand-me-down iPads I have
> updated well enough to do *anything*...   first significant "planned
> obselescence" I've seen in Apple Products... or I'd pass those along as
> well.
>
> I just reconnected with the SF MakerSpace (you should check them out if
> you don't know them) and I'm hoping they can absorb some of my
> duplicate/triplicate shop/hand tools that several dead/retiring men left to
> me over the last decade or two.   The coming population collapse (next
> pandemic, next assault-rifle-armed-MAGA temper tantrum, next rogue
> authoritarion with nuclear codes?) will leave us (or not) all with way more
> gak than we know what to do with... time to start being clever upcyclers!
>
> 
>
> - Steve
>
>
> On 12/20/22 12:12 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> First up is samsungs note 10. In a nutshell fun af, and complete, It's old
> phone that feals modern af. love the option to use a stylus for notes. It's
> a chonker of a phone. This one was refurbed*. It came from amazon and it's
> good as new. fantastic reception. and yeah just a cool phone. android
>
> A external keyboard: (don't have a link atm): Omg what a difference for
> quick texts when going to googles messages from the web is overkill. The
> one I have Is more meant for inplace typing. and meant to be used with a
> case and I think on a desktop or something. Sigh RIPish phones with
> keyboards.
>
> Elecom Deft:
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GQZVH78?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details=1>
> (arg gmails weird way to format!!): at any rate: in short? love it. It's
> trackball. I had one  like it for a few years before it broke.  I got it on
> impulse because I got frustrated with the small mousing area of my desk. It
> pleasantly surprised me how fast I adjusted. This one is wireless which is
> fantastic when you have a small space. I have no clue about the mechanical
> side. Just after a week and change of use it's  my favorite mouse so far.
> I've tried one with a bajillion dpi and polling rates and blah blah. but
> this relatively simple guy is just...fun? to use. I haven't tried it with
> games yet. if it's like the other trackball I suspect i'll be good. Has
> function buttons, I think those are for macros. All in all just  great.
> uses 2.4 ghtz usb dongle to connect and a AA battery.
> *I've gotten to prefer used gizmos because of being very concerned about
> the environment.
> Back to our regularly scheduled geek out about Ai.
>
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[FRIAM] For Steve Smith eta all re gadgets reviewing

[Gillian Densmore]

First up is samsungs note 10. In a nutshell fun af, and complete, It's old
phone that feals modern af. love the option to use a stylus for notes. It's
a chonker of a phone. This one was refurbed*. It came from amazon and it's
good as new. fantastic reception. and yeah just a cool phone. android

A external keyboard: (don't have a link atm): Omg what a difference for
quick texts when going to googles messages from the web is overkill. The
one I have Is more meant for inplace typing. and meant to be used with a
case and I think on a desktop or something. Sigh RIPish phones with
keyboards.

Elecom Deft:

(arg gmails weird way to format!!): at any rate: in short? love it. It's
trackball. I had one  like it for a few years before it broke.  I got it on
impulse because I got frustrated with the small mousing area of my desk. It
pleasantly surprised me how fast I adjusted. This one is wireless which is
fantastic when you have a small space. I have no clue about the mechanical
side. Just after a week and change of use it's  my favorite mouse so far.
I've tried one with a bajillion dpi and polling rates and blah blah. but
this relatively simple guy is just...fun? to use. I haven't tried it with
games yet. if it's like the other trackball I suspect i'll be good. Has
function buttons, I think those are for macros. All in all just  great.
uses 2.4 ghtz usb dongle to connect and a AA battery.
*I've gotten to prefer used gizmos because of being very concerned about
the environment.
Back to our regularly scheduled geek out about Ai.
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[FRIAM] A star talk on Fusion because the DOE's anouncement needed a translator

[Gillian Densmore]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2ynUAJ5ZU

It is indeed a hopeful achievement. I hope the list doesn't take my pro
fission bend as foo-fooing and dunking on fusion. Anyway just leaving it
here for another take on the recent announcement.
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Re: [FRIAM] Another spin on AI

[Gillian Densmore]

Speaking of Ai. A youtube video I watched the other day says that a battle
bot named Honest Abe might be one of the first mostly autonomous  bots for
battle bots. It some house uses machine learning and machine vision to make
it's way around the pit.  It's surreal seeing this 200 pound machine be a
better driver than humans. Sounds like something you might keep an eye on.
Anyone know more on the story? the video only said the judges were debating
if it'd be safe to try it. Some other bot makers got a bot to self drive
and it made it to the semi finals before being yeeted out of the arena.

On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 10:08 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> Subscribed to too many listservs
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
>
> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:56 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> How on earth do you find these things? lol.
>> And two AI links in a row?
>>  are we sure you're not a bot? :P
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 8:46 AM Tom Johnson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/12/1064751/the-viral-ai-avatar-app-lensa-undressed-me-without-my-consent/?utm_source=engagement_email_medium=email_campaign=wklysun_term=gift-promo1-121822_content=12.18.22.non-subs_eng_cid=89856a4cda_eid=4866eb5609
>>>
>>> ===
>>> Tom Johnson
>>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>>> 505-577-6482
>>> ===
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Re: [FRIAM] Another spin on AI

[Gillian Densmore]

How on earth do you find these things? lol.
And two AI links in a row?
 are we sure you're not a bot? :P


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 8:46 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

>
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/12/12/1064751/the-viral-ai-avatar-app-lensa-undressed-me-without-my-consent/?utm_source=engagement_email_medium=email_campaign=wklysun_term=gift-promo1-121822_content=12.18.22.non-subs_eng_cid=89856a4cda_eid=4866eb5609
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
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Re: [FRIAM] Who wrote the essay?

[Gillian Densmore]

I also somehow feel that calling using a chatbot for writing isn't
plagiarism. Clever and to slacker maybe. Definatly not in the spirit of a
human in the loop doing the typing or dictation to prove they didn't
completely sleep in class. Just that Plagiarism is inherently taking a
humans thing and saying you made that thing. Or does this also cover Ai as
well?


Sigh and just to be *that  *kind of person. I kind of feel this teacher is
wiffing on the chance to use this (and likely other) papers as part of a
object lesson in a class. (see Carl long sentences :P)  To be all like: now
class  if you use a chatbot as your paper, are thinking about it, just
don't lol.




On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 4:04 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 12:20 PM Carl Tollander  wrote:
>
>> Inconsistent use of punctuation.  Run-on sentences.  Human, or a chatbot
>> that's trying too hard to look human.
>>
>> C
>>
> I thought bad prose. Amature writing and archiach, random use of
> punctualization was my job :P
>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's a human.   No selfrespecting bot could write that badly.
>>>
>>> n
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 11:09 PM Tom Johnson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/5722102/posts/pfbid0D8i4GuCUJeRsDJjM1JJtfkDYDMCb7Y7RdK2EoyVhRuctg9z2fhvpo1bB2WAxGBzcl/?sfnsn=mo=ijjfgs
>>>>
>>>> ===
>>>> Tom Johnson
>>>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>>>> 505-577-6482
>>>> ===
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Re: [FRIAM] Who wrote the essay?

[Gillian Densmore]

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 12:20 PM Carl Tollander  wrote:

> Inconsistent use of punctuation.  Run-on sentences.  Human, or a chatbot
> that's trying too hard to look human.
>
> C
>
I thought bad prose. Amature writing and archiach, random use of
punctualization was my job :P

>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 11:39 AM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it's a human.   No selfrespecting bot could write that badly.
>>
>> n
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 11:09 PM Tom Johnson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/5722102/posts/pfbid0D8i4GuCUJeRsDJjM1JJtfkDYDMCb7Y7RdK2EoyVhRuctg9z2fhvpo1bB2WAxGBzcl/?sfnsn=mo=ijjfgs
>>>
>>> ===
>>> Tom Johnson
>>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>>> 505-577-6482
>>> ===
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

gt; via wires?
>
> my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.tntdrama.com%2fsnowpiercer=E,1,3632M-ARYoh18WP4Ebg9xB7ZSdj5vN7EfteAgA48GjtVg9HnSQwm-8NYZq16dpKsqI3NXxIlv9VWQRQ5t-Lf__nO18TM9jkB_qZEUbaE=1>
> style earth-circumscribing rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep
> into the earth's crust that they are tapped into the earth's inner heat,
> the rails can be the DC conduit Marcus suggests.   There can be as many
> windmills and tidal turbines placed along the line as one feels they
> need/can-afford/stand-to-see as well as a PV/thermo solar continuous
> collector/shade-roof which can also enhance gradient by radiating into the
> (2.73-273 deg K
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f153839%2fwhat-is-the-temperature-of-the-clear-night-sky-from-the-surface-of-earth=E,1,Mym_MVP2YQQpG8ShnGwNgqA7mlDs-14HRuNLYPSrS_TLcWTQJS93tLKc4WuPtM4hKFR6eL-VrRsD-AeTXOFgpPm7pZnaTZp62gbUe8d3bxk3j7LI9ZTRZjXrHA,,=1>)
> sky at night.   The Snowpiercer rail-cars can move (make them pneumatic or
> evacuated-ballistic (~18mi/sec?)) physical goods and materials
> continuously...   (thank you Elon Musk).  Mount a few Spinlaunch
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.spinlaunch.com%2f=E,1,MOTshsb7TvaaZ3PnkdVodS1gcu9F7R_4CgYU2PKnxxnEl1alwhxwZZvlgvTDntZXW0c2_jWEyWazC5Q0iiFKcDMQ6dKv7VFywXQXnP6W-gqfLUIwrenxbQ,,=1>
> units on train units and squirt things into orbit at-will?
>
> Wait, maybe it can become a strip-city modeled on SA's "Line"
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia>... at 100 miles
> long and 9million population, the circumferential "line" would be 240 times
> as long and have a carrying capacity of >2 Billion based on their predicted
> precedent.Place three of these orthogonal to one another like an armillary
> sphere <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere> and we are up to
> 6B?   A modest bump in scale (cube root of 1.5) could accommodate 9B!   A
> few of us (DaveW, GaryS, ... myself)  rebellious non-urban renegades could
> live in the remaining landscape NOT covered by these 3 circumscribing strip
> cities and live our lives in the spirit of Sean Connery's character Zed in
> Zardoz <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/>!
>
> Heck, just a nice precursor to Larry Niven's Ringworld
> <https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11183/could-we-build-a-ringworld-17166651/>
> tell Musk he can keep his claims to Mars... at least until the rest of us
> need the mass to integrate into a proper Dyson Sphere
> <https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11098/dyson-sphere/>
> ...
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
> there are no such things.
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
> sroy...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
> What you are missing includes
> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
> fission plants
> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and c

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable.   That would
> enable solar power to be distributed around the world.   It would reduce
> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar.   Of course, you raise
> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream.  It would be
> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
> there are no such things.
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
> sroy...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
> What you are missing includes
> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
> fission plants
> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>
>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day.
> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I
> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>
>
> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>
> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>
> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
> remaining D vs T.
>
> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
> has taken decades to get to this point?
>
> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>
> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>
> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
>
> 

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Gotcha!
I don't know man. You can swim in the same water used to cool rods because
water  close to the rods blocks neutrons. My concern about  the DOE putting
so many eggs in the fusion basket and ignoring the day to day year to year.
Breeder reactors as a proven reliable start aren't without their own
issues. not the least of witch is the production of weaponizable fissile
materials (:( ) .
And yeah you bring up a good point need something like CERN or the Large
Hagon collider to get even enough raw material to heat a tea cup for 30
minutes.
Do you know if that's something we can over come?
I guess i'm staring in mortified terror that global warming is here.
needing just a few huge changes. I mean don't get me wrong fusion has huge
potential. But at the same time Fission is here. just to get the proverbial
ball rolling it'd be pretty sweet to start with that wouldn't it?

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:22 PM Barry MacKichan 
wrote:

> I am a long-time environmentalist (I think I joined the Wilderness Society
> in the early 60’s) and I opposed fission power plants because of safety
> issues and because of the long-lived waste products. My feeling is that
> even if you make the probability of a screw-up very low, given 10,000
> yearsm *something* will happen.
>
> Now with global warming imminent, I support some fission plants as a
> back-up to solar and wind (and tide, …) generators.
>
> The problem with antimatter is, what kind of bottle will you put it in?
> Also, to make antimatter, you need to put as much (actually more:
> conservation of energy — bummer) into it as you will get out, so one step
> forward, then one and a half back.
>
> --Barry
>
> On 15 Dec 2022, at 16:28, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E>  . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>>
>>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another
>> day. I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case
>> I only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>>
>>
>> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>>
>> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>>
>> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>>
>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>>
>> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
>> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
>> remaining D vs T.
>>
>> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
>> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
>> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
>> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
>> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
>> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
>> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
>> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
>> has taken decades to get to this point?
>>
>> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:

[FRIAM] yet another global warming thread

[Gillian Densmore]

Ok so my brain hurts a little now.
We as humans in the very least accelerated climate change because to many
carbons is bad. ok cool. got that.
-Fusion is the new hotness.
And here we have the problem:
What's with avoiding research into if matter/antimatter would be practical?
-Fusion (for now) is not practical
Fission is. If we don't want more cabins from coal plants. What's stopping
us from either bringing back online, and or building breeder reactor
plants? is it just NIMBY and feers of a 3 mile island? or is their some
other deeper problem to fission breeder reactors?
I meen I don't know man if you were to tell me: hey: for the same cost of
lifetime of clean up and PR costs of one coal plant you can refurbish 2
fission plants and as a bonus have some of the cleanest air quality
available. I'd say yes. but then I think Fission(breeder style) Is super
duper cool. Hell you can swim in water used for cooling "spent" rods.

Back to our regularly scheduled debates about the meaning of life.
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gillian Densmore]

Ok so this is cool and all.
Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
on f'n fire   . As far as I
know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as much
money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute amounts
of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by product are
xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created would be a
massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
and safer than oil and coal I say)
I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?

On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>
>   https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen  wrote:
>
> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day.
> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I
> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>
>
> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
>
> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
>
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>
> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
> remaining D vs T.
>
> My understanding is that D-T  fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
> portions.   An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely...   tricky business, no wonder it
> has taken decades to get to this point?
>
> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>
> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
>
> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions <
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions>
>
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> <
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> >
>
> On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
>
> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd
> track the rarer part more closely, right?
>
>
> On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> DT = deuterium?
>
>
> ---
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>
> 505 670-9918
>
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen  geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
>
>
> What is "DT"?
>
>
> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
>  > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE
> administrators talk:
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for
> maintaining symmetry.  Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial
> precision of 5e-12 meter were needed. This was thought to be the main
> explanation for the achievement.
>
>  >
>
>  > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
>
>  >
>
>  > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.
> Developing software to do the counting.
>
>  >
>
>  > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and
> their 

Re: [FRIAM] Competitive Excel

[Gillian Densmore]

theatlantic.com

The Excel World Championship Is the Internet at Its Best
Jacob Stern
1–2 minutes
--


The World Cup of Microsoft Excel

How can watching people fiddle with spreadsheets possibly be this fun?
[image: People dancing in front of the Microsoft Excel logo]
Getty; The Atlantic

A few weeks ago, you very likely missed what were very likely the most
thrilling moments in the history of Microsoft Excel. Allow me to set the
scene: The semifinal of the Excel World Championship was streaming
 live on YouTube and ESPN3.
Defending champion Andrew Ngai had steamrolled his previous three
opponents, but he now trailed the unseeded newcomer Brittany Deaton
316–390—not an insignificant margin, but by no means insurmountable.
“Andrew is lost,” GolferMike1 commented in the YouTube chat. “He’s shaken.”
The game clock ticked under four minutes.

Never miss a story. Start your free trial.

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Your support ensures a bright future for independent journalism.

Get Started


Already have an account? Sign in. 

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 9:53 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> A new armchair and mouse sport.
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2022/12/world-cup-microsoft-excel/672320/?utm_campaign=article_email_content=article-9334_source=sg_medium=email
>
>
> TJ
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
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Re: [FRIAM] THUam

[Gillian Densmore]

Got it!
I was worried for a bit.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 2:21 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> No.  Spring!  Something about hope in our darkest hours.  N
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 12:41 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> spring? do you meen winter?
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 12:25 PM Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am holding the meeting open for another half an hour or so in case
>>> anybody wants to rant a rant.  Not  feeling very ranty myself today.
>>> I know.
>>>
>>> Nice spring day here in Santa fe.
>>>
>>> n
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] THUam

[Gillian Densmore]

spring? do you meen winter?

On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 12:25 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> I am holding the meeting open for another half an hour or so in case
> anybody wants to rant a rant.  Not  feeling very ranty myself today.
> I know.
>
> Nice spring day here in Santa fe.
>
> n
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Re: [FRIAM] First Sign of Spring

[Gillian Densmore]

Spring?
or did you mean cogs?
or winter?
or yes cogs in the winter?

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 11:10 AM George Duncan  wrote:

> For lots of detail check out
> Sunrise and sunset times in New Mexico (timeanddate.com)
> 
>
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
> luminous chaos.
>
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
> power." Joanna Macy.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly 
> wrote:
>
>> But the shortest day is around the 21st so that means that sunrise must
>> be later than usual at this time.  Right?
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022, 9:43 AM Nicholas Thompson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Today is the shortest afternoon of the year.  Tomorrow, the afternoons
>>> will start getting longer by a few msec.  Unclear whether this is because
>>> the sun is setting later or noon is occurring earlier, but we'll take it.
>>> Welcome to Spring, 2023!
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Art via AI

[Gillian Densmore]

Ah!  Yes well points taken. Aaaah ok so from my skim of the article is it
that part of the problem is silicon valley is being [expletive bleeped]
jerks to workers? I had no idea it was so... Orwellian in Ai work. lame. I
don't know man, I'd (personally) be kind of flattered if DallE while
combing the intertubes used one of my cartoon characters as part of its
development. but then I'm not trying to use that to make a living. I'd
think that's more of Creative Commons pls pay the usage percentage per so
many training hours. I'd say it'd be the classic units sold but this is ai
training, or do they also lease Dall-E in  which case per a lease as well.
(15% each).
But I am not a Lawyer.


On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 8:43 AM glen  wrote:

> Well, it's not *merely* "puff puff puff 'ma privacy":
>
> The Exploited Labor Behind Artificial Intelligence
>
> https://www.noemamag.com/the-exploited-labor-behind-artificial-intelligence/
>
> It's also people who are just trying to keep the lights on and put food on
> the table ... like some people on this very mailing list.
>
> On 11/19/22 10:14, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > Have you read the absolute keniption some people are having about
> publicly found pictures DALL-E and some other Ai's training caused.? A lot
> of "puff puff puff ma' privacy and Ai bad 'n stuff"teeth gnashing.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 9:11 PM Tom Johnson  <mailto:jtjohnson...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > A recent FRIAM live conversation topic
> >
> >
> https://www.wired.com/story/picture-limitless-creativity-ai-image-generators/?bxid=5bea123b24c17c6adf1d2a27=9635641=WIR_CLEANUP_201407=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ_brand=wired_campaign=aud-dev_content=WIR_Daily_111722_mailing=WIR_Daily_111722_medium=email_source=nl_term=P4
> <
> https://www.wired.com/story/picture-limitless-creativity-ai-image-generators/?bxid=5bea123b24c17c6adf1d2a27=9635641=WIR_CLEANUP_201407=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ_brand=wired_campaign=aud-dev_content=WIR_Daily_111722_mailing=WIR_Daily_111722_medium=email_source=nl_term=P4
> >
> >
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Art via AI

[Gillian Densmore]

Thanks for the article btw.

On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 11:14 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Have you read the absolute keniption some people are having about publicly
> found pictures DALL-E and some other Ai's training caused.? A lot of "puff
> puff puff ma' privacy and Ai bad 'n stuff"teeth gnashing.
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 9:11 PM Tom Johnson 
> wrote:
>
>> A recent FRIAM live conversation topic
>>
>>
>> https://www.wired.com/story/picture-limitless-creativity-ai-image-generators/?bxid=5bea123b24c17c6adf1d2a27=9635641=WIR_CLEANUP_201407=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ_brand=wired_campaign=aud-dev_content=WIR_Daily_111722_mailing=WIR_Daily_111722_medium=email_source=nl_term=P4
>>
>> ===
>> Tom Johnson
>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>> 505-577-6482
>> ===
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>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Art via AI

[Gillian Densmore]

Have you read the absolute keniption some people are having about publicly
found pictures DALL-E and some other Ai's training caused.? A lot of "puff
puff puff ma' privacy and Ai bad 'n stuff"teeth gnashing.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 9:11 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> A recent FRIAM live conversation topic
>
>
> https://www.wired.com/story/picture-limitless-creativity-ai-image-generators/?bxid=5bea123b24c17c6adf1d2a27=9635641=WIR_CLEANUP_201407=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ_brand=wired_campaign=aud-dev_content=WIR_Daily_111722_mailing=WIR_Daily_111722_medium=email_source=nl_term=P4
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
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[FRIAM] dictation question

[Gillian Densmore]

Hello everyone!
I hope everyone is doing well!
Recently I have been into dictating my emails.

 I have noticed the quality of at least Google's dictation or voice typing
software as it calls itself. has at some point since I last used it become
noticeably better. Where I can speak modestly fast and it keeps up
surprisingly well.

What wonderful black magic has improved in the background? How has it
become more accurate since about 2-3 years ago when I last tried?

Neural nets? or just some improvement in how it hears me?
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Re: [FRIAM] Eero wifi just not connecting

[Gillian Densmore]

Thanks man. Helps get things sorted out.

On Wed, Nov 9, 2022 at 6:51 PM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> I have the Erro base station and three nodes. The nodes chain to each
> other, NOT the internet, and ultimately back to the base station which
> connects by cable to the modem.  I have found eero to be terrific, stable
> technology.
> Tom
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2022, 6:23 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Minor family feud. Owen says  oh but it has great reviews. I'm saying:
>> uuuh k. but 2 of the 3 refuse to let me connect to the internet when I
>> use them. I'm inclined towards cut the losses and score a lynksis or
>> something. I can connect if I plug directly into my cable modem.And forums
>> say they're infamous for issues.
>> Is either of us right?
>> I haven't changed anything outside give one a SSID. I also tend to take
>> glowing refuse with a hefty pinch of salt. Probably an entire cans worth
>> more like it. Paid reviews and review bots are a problem on amazon. at
>> least in my experience. I'm sure that's an entire subject of complexity
>> (programing and "rly!") that I know nothing about.
>> How can I tell if it's a configuration issue (no idea how). or a router
>> just not working(seems most likely)?
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[FRIAM] Eero wifi just not connecting

[Gillian Densmore]

Minor family feud. Owen says  oh but it has great reviews. I'm saying: uuuh
k. but 2 of the 3 refuse to let me connect to the internet when I use
them. I'm inclined towards cut the losses and score a lynksis or something.
I can connect if I plug directly into my cable modem.And forums say they're
infamous for issues.
Is either of us right?
I haven't changed anything outside give one a SSID. I also tend to take
glowing refuse with a hefty pinch of salt. Probably an entire cans worth
more like it. Paid reviews and review bots are a problem on amazon. at
least in my experience. I'm sure that's an entire subject of complexity
(programing and "rly!") that I know nothing about.
How can I tell if it's a configuration issue (no idea how). or a router
just not working(seems most likely)?
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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[FRIAM] Snow boots in...wide?

[Gillian Densmore]

HelloAll,

Alas I need snow boots that are wide with a I guess tall instep.  Does
anyone have experience with this if so what brands and or store do you
recommend?
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Re: [FRIAM] Getting Verbed...

[Gillian Densmore]

 >
> > [⛧] Capital "E" to indicate that the current batch is really too
> > stupid to be actually evil.
> >
> > [∝] Of course, this ignores the regime/freezing argument where a
> > unipolar "driver" for a given homeostatic state allows for finer
> > grained wiggling inside. Even if Thiel and ilk are thinking in this
> > "heterodox" way, they might be blind to the idea their upsetting the
> > cart will destroy their own fortunes as well ... beyond the veil of
> > ignorance.
> >
> > On 11/7/22 18:05, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> After being a fly on the wall at SFI and similar places, this sounds
> >> exactly right to me.  Nixon too.
> >>
> >> original.jpg
> >> Elon. Trump. Resentment.
> >> <https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/11/elon-trump-r
> >> esentment/672030/>
> >> theatlantic.com
> >> <https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/11/elon-trump-r
> >> esentment/672030/>
> >>
> >> <https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/11/elon-trump-r
> >> esentment/672030/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Nov 7, 2022, at 1:58 PM, Gillian Densmore
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> Oh and SCOTUSed, the tech sector getting Biden'd and Demed. The
> >>> Sunshine Protection act getting tantrum'd. Yes I will stay petty
> >>> about the dems and the house have a chance to do /something / other
> >>> than complain about other people and be in campaign mode all the
> >>> time I get news'd a retarded poloticioned (so poloticion.) your a
> >>> senator that's 900 years old acting like a 3 year old eh? congrats
> >>> on being a waste of air.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 2:47 PM Gillian Densmore
> >>> mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You forgot getting Bushed twice.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 1:59 PM Steve Smith  >>> <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We been Musked, we been Trumped, the Russians and Ukranians
> >>> and much of
> >>> Europe has been Putined and perhaps Balsinaro (and his
> >>> followers have
> >>> been sumarrily Lula'd)?  One of the more satisfying targets
> >>> for my own
> >>> doomscrolling is to find examples of Corporate Execs and
> >>> Republican
> >>> AHoles being KatiePortered.  SNL fans love watch loving
> >>> people get
> >>> McKinnoned.
> >>>
> >>> I'm probably just begging to get Ropella'd here...
> >>>
> >>> On 11/7/22 12:04 PM, glen wrote:
> >>> > Musk *is* the joke. A joke of a person ... like we now use
> >>> the verb Borked. "Musk" could be shorthand for Poe's Law,
> >>> exquisitely explained in the recent Onion friend of the court filing.
> >>> >
> >>> > "You were totally Musked, man. It's not even bad faith.
> >>> That guy couldn't joke his way out of a paper bag."
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On November 7, 2022 10:33:38 AM EST, Marcus Daniels
> >>> mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
> >>> >> Where’s the sense of humor now?
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-bo
> >>> ot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
> >>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-bo
> >>> ot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html>>
> >>>
> >>> >> [64260315-0-image-a-4_1667788476734.jpg]
> >>> >> Musk threatens to boot Twitter account
> >>> impersonators<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk
> >>> -threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
> >>> <https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-bo
> >>> ot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html>>
> >>>
> >>> >> dailymail.co.uk
> >>> <http://dailymail.co.uk><https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11
> >>> 397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitt

[FRIAM] Hockey as a great test of modeling software

[Gillian Densmore]

After trying to watch a overly Badly officiated football game umn the NFL
kind.I submit that hockey is barely contained Chaos on ice It seems to me
the Nexus of the chaos tends to center around the puck. I further submit
that it might make for a interesting and Fun Study for someone's
agent-based modeling software. looking at you Steve.
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Re: [FRIAM] Getting Verbed...

[Gillian Densmore]

Oh right I forgot that Nixon was President silly me.



On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 7:06 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> After being a fly on the wall at SFI and similar places, this sounds
> exactly right to me.  Nixon too.
>
> [image: original.jpg]
>
> Elon. Trump. Resentment.
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/11/elon-trump-resentment/672030/>
> theatlantic.com
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/11/elon-trump-resentment/672030/>
>
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/11/elon-trump-resentment/672030/>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 7, 2022, at 1:58 PM, Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Oh and SCOTUSed, the tech sector getting Biden'd and Demed.  The Sunshine
> Protection act getting tantrum'd. Yes I will stay petty about the dems and
> the house have a chance to do *something * other than complain about
> other people and be in campaign mode all the time
> I get news'd a retarded poloticioned (so poloticion.) your a senator
> that's 900 years old acting like a 3 year old eh? congrats on being a waste
> of air.
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 2:47 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> You forgot getting Bushed twice.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 1:59 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> We been Musked, we been Trumped, the Russians and Ukranians and much of
>>> Europe has been Putined and perhaps Balsinaro (and his followers have
>>> been sumarrily Lula'd)?  One of the more satisfying targets for my own
>>> doomscrolling is to find examples of Corporate Execs and Republican
>>> AHoles being KatiePortered.  SNL fans love watch loving people get
>>> McKinnoned.
>>>
>>> I'm probably just begging to get Ropella'd here...
>>>
>>> On 11/7/22 12:04 PM, glen wrote:
>>> > Musk *is* the joke. A joke of a person ... like we now use the verb
>>> Borked. "Musk" could be shorthand for Poe's Law, exquisitely explained in
>>> the recent Onion friend of the court filing.
>>> >
>>> > "You were totally Musked, man. It's not even bad faith. That guy
>>> couldn't joke his way out of a paper bag."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On November 7, 2022 10:33:38 AM EST, Marcus Daniels <
>>> mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>>> >> Where’s the sense of humor now?
>>> >>
>>> >> <
>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
>>> >
>>> >> [64260315-0-image-a-4_1667788476734.jpg]
>>> >> Musk threatens to boot Twitter account impersonators<
>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
>>> >
>>> >> dailymail.co.uk<
>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>
>>> >> On Nov 6, 2022, at 5:53 PM, glen  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>  That you call Mastodon 'twitter-like' is discomforting. ActivityPub
>>> is fundamentally different.I guess the premature registration is
>>> reasonable, given the politics of the moment. But the 'fediverse' really is
>>> distributed, very unlike twitter. I really love that the Gab twits ported
>>> to Mastodon. That, unlike Musk's perverted conception, is a real example of
>>> free speech. You really are free to turn open source and open protocol to
>>> your weirdo subculture. We just don't have to link to you.
>>> >>
>>> >> Don't think 'twitter-like'. Think 'decentralized'.
>>> >>
>>> >> On November 6, 2022 5:51:40 PM EST, Steve Smith 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Trying to understand BookWyrm vs StoryGraph vs GoodReads and Twitter
>>> vs Mastadon (and beyond), I found this aggregator of alternative
>>> recommendations:
>>> >>
>>> >> https://alternativeto.net/
>>> >>
>>> >> which doesn't necessarily solve anything, it just makes it obvious
>>> how challenging "too many choices" can be...
>>> >>
>>> >> After a lame attempt to go with Mastadon I decided to abandond
>>> Twitter-like things altogether.  I doubt I will be willing to throw
>>> GoodReads over for anything else because of the participating base of my
>>> own personal/family networ

Re: [FRIAM] election day distractions

[Gillian Densmore]

Does beer, chilli and stupid anime  count as distracting? or just being me?

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 5:46 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptonomicon
>
> Has a similar cast of characters. I don't know how i made my through it
> (carefully?)
> movie wise their's the marx brothers
> and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Distinguished_Gentleman
> their's also a classic about presidential candidate
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ>
> So is this one <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Groove>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 5:19 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>> Just found Adventures of  a Mathematician free with Amazon Prime:
>>
>> The warmhearted story of Polish immigrant and mathematician Stan Ulam,
>>> who moved to the U.S. in the 1930s. Stan deals with the difficult losses of
>>> family and friends all while helping to create the hydrogen bomb and the
>>> first computer.
>>
>>
>> With supporting roles for Robert Oppenheimer, Johnny von Neumann, Edward
>> Teller, Klaus Fuchs, and Mathematician from Los Alamos.
>>
>> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6875374/
>>
>> -- rec --
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] election day distractions

[Gillian Densmore]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptonomicon

Has a similar cast of characters. I don't know how i made my through it
(carefully?)
movie wise their's the marx brothers
and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Distinguished_Gentleman
their's also a classic about presidential candidate

So is this one 


On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 5:19 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Just found Adventures of  a Mathematician free with Amazon Prime:
>
> The warmhearted story of Polish immigrant and mathematician Stan Ulam, who
>> moved to the U.S. in the 1930s. Stan deals with the difficult losses of
>> family and friends all while helping to create the hydrogen bomb and the
>> first computer.
>
>
> With supporting roles for Robert Oppenheimer, Johnny von Neumann, Edward
> Teller, Klaus Fuchs, and Mathematician from Los Alamos.
>
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6875374/
>
> -- rec --
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Getting Verbed...

[Gillian Densmore]

Oh and SCOTUSed, the tech sector getting Biden'd and Demed.  The Sunshine
Protection act getting tantrum'd. Yes I will stay petty about the dems and
the house have a chance to do *something * other than complain about other
people and be in campaign mode all the time
I get news'd a retarded poloticioned (so poloticion.) your a senator that's
900 years old acting like a 3 year old eh? congrats on being a waste of air.

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 2:47 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> You forgot getting Bushed twice.
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 1:59 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> We been Musked, we been Trumped, the Russians and Ukranians and much of
>> Europe has been Putined and perhaps Balsinaro (and his followers have
>> been sumarrily Lula'd)?  One of the more satisfying targets for my own
>> doomscrolling is to find examples of Corporate Execs and Republican
>> AHoles being KatiePortered.  SNL fans love watch loving people get
>> McKinnoned.
>>
>> I'm probably just begging to get Ropella'd here...
>>
>> On 11/7/22 12:04 PM, glen wrote:
>> > Musk *is* the joke. A joke of a person ... like we now use the verb
>> Borked. "Musk" could be shorthand for Poe's Law, exquisitely explained in
>> the recent Onion friend of the court filing.
>> >
>> > "You were totally Musked, man. It's not even bad faith. That guy
>> couldn't joke his way out of a paper bag."
>> >
>> >
>> > On November 7, 2022 10:33:38 AM EST, Marcus Daniels <
>> mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>> >> Where’s the sense of humor now?
>> >>
>> >> <
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
>> >
>> >> [64260315-0-image-a-4_1667788476734.jpg]
>> >> Musk threatens to boot Twitter account impersonators<
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
>> >
>> >> dailymail.co.uk<
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On Nov 6, 2022, at 5:53 PM, glen  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  That you call Mastodon 'twitter-like' is discomforting. ActivityPub
>> is fundamentally different.I guess the premature registration is
>> reasonable, given the politics of the moment. But the 'fediverse' really is
>> distributed, very unlike twitter. I really love that the Gab twits ported
>> to Mastodon. That, unlike Musk's perverted conception, is a real example of
>> free speech. You really are free to turn open source and open protocol to
>> your weirdo subculture. We just don't have to link to you.
>> >>
>> >> Don't think 'twitter-like'. Think 'decentralized'.
>> >>
>> >> On November 6, 2022 5:51:40 PM EST, Steve Smith 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Trying to understand BookWyrm vs StoryGraph vs GoodReads and Twitter
>> vs Mastadon (and beyond), I found this aggregator of alternative
>> recommendations:
>> >>
>> >> https://alternativeto.net/
>> >>
>> >> which doesn't necessarily solve anything, it just makes it obvious how
>> challenging "too many choices" can be...
>> >>
>> >> After a lame attempt to go with Mastadon I decided to abandond
>> Twitter-like things altogether.  I doubt I will be willing to throw
>> GoodReads over for anything else because of the participating base of my
>> own personal/family network there.   I can at least avoid clicking through
>> a GoodReads recommendation to order from Amazon.
>> >>
>> >> https://alternativeto.net/software/bookwyrm/
>> >>
>> >> I haven't begun (tried?) to evaluate AlternativeTo.Net itself...
>> >>
>> >> Is this the tragedy of the "free market" (subset of "commons")?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 11/4/22 3:00 PM, glen wrote:
>> >> I'd forgotten about this until the release yesterday:
>> >>
>> >> https://joinbookwyrm.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 11/2/22 14:52, Steve Smith wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 11/2/22 9:43 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>> >> Thanks, Glen.
>> >>
>> >> It would be nice if there were a public bibliographic reference url
>> that one could use to name a book that only conveyed the thing in itself.
>> G

Re: [FRIAM] Getting Verbed...

[Gillian Densmore]

You forgot getting Bushed twice.

On Mon, Nov 7, 2022 at 1:59 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> We been Musked, we been Trumped, the Russians and Ukranians and much of
> Europe has been Putined and perhaps Balsinaro (and his followers have
> been sumarrily Lula'd)?  One of the more satisfying targets for my own
> doomscrolling is to find examples of Corporate Execs and Republican
> AHoles being KatiePortered.  SNL fans love watch loving people get
> McKinnoned.
>
> I'm probably just begging to get Ropella'd here...
>
> On 11/7/22 12:04 PM, glen wrote:
> > Musk *is* the joke. A joke of a person ... like we now use the verb
> Borked. "Musk" could be shorthand for Poe's Law, exquisitely explained in
> the recent Onion friend of the court filing.
> >
> > "You were totally Musked, man. It's not even bad faith. That guy
> couldn't joke his way out of a paper bag."
> >
> >
> > On November 7, 2022 10:33:38 AM EST, Marcus Daniels <
> mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote:
> >> Where’s the sense of humor now?
> >>
> >> <
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
> >
> >> [64260315-0-image-a-4_1667788476734.jpg]
> >> Musk threatens to boot Twitter account impersonators<
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
> >
> >> dailymail.co.uk<
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11397213/Musk-threatens-boot-Twitter-account-impersonators.html
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Nov 6, 2022, at 5:53 PM, glen  wrote:
> >>
> >>  That you call Mastodon 'twitter-like' is discomforting. ActivityPub
> is fundamentally different.I guess the premature registration is
> reasonable, given the politics of the moment. But the 'fediverse' really is
> distributed, very unlike twitter. I really love that the Gab twits ported
> to Mastodon. That, unlike Musk's perverted conception, is a real example of
> free speech. You really are free to turn open source and open protocol to
> your weirdo subculture. We just don't have to link to you.
> >>
> >> Don't think 'twitter-like'. Think 'decentralized'.
> >>
> >> On November 6, 2022 5:51:40 PM EST, Steve Smith 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Trying to understand BookWyrm vs StoryGraph vs GoodReads and Twitter vs
> Mastadon (and beyond), I found this aggregator of alternative
> recommendations:
> >>
> >> https://alternativeto.net/
> >>
> >> which doesn't necessarily solve anything, it just makes it obvious how
> challenging "too many choices" can be...
> >>
> >> After a lame attempt to go with Mastadon I decided to abandond
> Twitter-like things altogether.  I doubt I will be willing to throw
> GoodReads over for anything else because of the participating base of my
> own personal/family network there.   I can at least avoid clicking through
> a GoodReads recommendation to order from Amazon.
> >>
> >> https://alternativeto.net/software/bookwyrm/
> >>
> >> I haven't begun (tried?) to evaluate AlternativeTo.Net itself...
> >>
> >> Is this the tragedy of the "free market" (subset of "commons")?
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/4/22 3:00 PM, glen wrote:
> >> I'd forgotten about this until the release yesterday:
> >>
> >> https://joinbookwyrm.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/2/22 14:52, Steve Smith wrote:
> >>
> >> On 11/2/22 9:43 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> >> Thanks, Glen.
> >>
> >> It would be nice if there were a public bibliographic reference url
> that one could use to name a book that only conveyed the thing in itself.
> Goodreads was that once, then Amazon bought them.  Ditto for video and
> audio recordings and other objects of public interest.
> >>
> >> I admit to continuing to use Goodreads this way in spite of two
> problems... the Amazon affiliation/ownership of course, but also the too
> often spotty reviews...  I don't provide many nor particularly good reviews
> myself, so I've no room to complain really.
> >>
> >> So I suppose I agree with your "public bibliographic reference url"
> point.   It seems as if Wikipedia is a good candidate but I haven't done
> the work to understand how new entries are made... are they always required
> to be made by a citizen of the community who is NOT affiliated with the
> book (publisher, author, etc)? I find a *lot* of the books I seek in
> Wikipedia and prefer them for reference when their book-description (and
> cross links to related works, author, etc) are particularly apt, but that
> is also spotty.   I use Goodreads mostly to follow what family/friends are
> reading and what *they* think of their reads.
> >>
> >> The trend toward crowd-sourced public-use corpii being acquired by
> private interests (even public corporations are private interests) is
> disturbing (FB <-Mapillary, Amazon<-Goodreads)...   Twitter->BoringCo, etc)
> >>
> >>
> >> Eugenia Cheng has other books and a pile of youtube videos.
> Interestingly, her primary institutional affiliation is the Art Institute
> of Chicago, where as resident scientist she teaches math to 

[FRIAM] ai upscaling is still magical

[Gillian Densmore]

Eli5 how img GAN(sp) like used here: http://waifu2x.udp.jp/
 can take a small picture and expand it to a bigger one. I know I asked
before. it still seems like magic.  I come across creative common pictures
that small (like on morg files) or low quality. and sometimes an Ai
upscaller or something to resample the img to be just better quality. I
swear does black magic with the pixels, so that for my use (artistic) I
have something good to work with.
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Re: [FRIAM] Obligatory (and gratuitous?) screed about time changes.

[Gillian Densmore]

lol pretty much


On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 11:02 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 11/5/22 10:50 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> I'll leave this here then:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20160112000701/http://www.timecube.com/
> and no it doesn't make sense.
>
> Geeze Gil!  What are you trying to do to me?  That lead to some serious
> Klein-Bottle Navel-Gazing!
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Good one Carl/Ken ...
>>
>> And don't even get me started on converting calendars and clocks to
>> *metric* (y'all know how much I prefer fractions over decimals for everyday
>> measures and calculations).
>>
>> As  a child, WWV was one of the very few constant signals I could tune in
>> on my parent's antique (even then) "Zenith Wave Magnet" they let me keep in
>> my bedroom... I can still see the dull orange glow seeping out of the back
>> of the set when the tubes were cooking...   now-adays when I fire it up I
>> also smell the dust burning off.   Deeply visceral... "beep, beep,
>> beep..."  WWV-Fort Collins.
>>
>> I haven't cared "much" about DST in any part of my life... it has just
>> been an opportunity to stir the pot and be contrarian about something I
>> know to be arbitrarily arbitrary really.   Same for metric/english/archaic
>> measures.  All those things exist for good reason even if they persist for
>> bad ones.
>> On 11/4/22 10:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>>
>> OK, then.  Ken Nordine on Time.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVYpCdY4Y_0
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:33 PM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Protection_Act#:~:text=The%20bill%20received%20bipartisan%20support,consent%20on%20March%2015%2C%202022.
>>> steeeve
>>> It's a BFD to me because of GP. mucking about with the clock a ruining
>>> winter is dumb.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:26 PM glen  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Honestly, I just don't get why it's such a big deal. Sure, it's
>>>> obsolete. And maybe it kills a few people, raises cortisol, etc. But there
>>>> are so many other things that affect our (sleep) cycles soo much more,
>>>> like obesity, alcoholism, wage slavery, TikTok fomo, ... on and on. Passing
>>>> such a law feels like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Or maybe
>>>> complaining about how a reporter discussing Putin mispronounces "nukular"
>>>> ... an odd thing to complain about while the ICBM heads your way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/4/22 15:17, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > On 11/4/22 4:14 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>>>> >> Didn't the sunshine act already pass? but yes I agree I despise the
>>>> clock change bull sh It takes effect next year unless Turtle neck had
>>>> his usual tantrum.
>>>> >
>>>> >  From the linked article:
>>>> >
>>>> > /Earlier this year, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed bipartisan
>>>> legislation to abolish clock changes and make daylight saving time
>>>> permanent, beginning in 2023. Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida,
>>>> introducedthe Sunshine Protection Act <
>>>> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>//, and
>>>> Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Oregon, was among the co-sponsors./
>>>> >
>>>> > /"Glad the Senate has passed the Sunshine Protection Act so
>>>> Oregonians aren’t springing back & forth each year in a silly exercise that
>>>> hurts everybody’s health & our economy," Wyden tweeted March 15. "Time now
>>>> for the House to act."/
>>>> >
>>>> > /In June 2022, the U.S. House failed to pass the bill, which is
>>>> now stalled and scheduled to expire in December./
>>>> >
>>>> > /Let the debate resume in March 2023./
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:10 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> as we all know I'm no fan of semi-annual clock changes... and I
>>>> thought the Sunshine Act <
>>>> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>would put
>>>> an end to that nonsense even if did fall on the "wrong side" with a
>>>> year-round DST timesqew.   Looks like it is going to fail

Re: [FRIAM] Obligatory (and gratuitous?) screed about time changes.

[Gillian Densmore]

I'll leave this here then:
http://web.archive.org/web/20160112000701/http://www.timecube.com/
and no it doesn't make sense.

On Sat, Nov 5, 2022 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Good one Carl/Ken ...
>
> And don't even get me started on converting calendars and clocks to
> *metric* (y'all know how much I prefer fractions over decimals for everyday
> measures and calculations).
>
> As  a child, WWV was one of the very few constant signals I could tune in
> on my parent's antique (even then) "Zenith Wave Magnet" they let me keep in
> my bedroom... I can still see the dull orange glow seeping out of the back
> of the set when the tubes were cooking...   now-adays when I fire it up I
> also smell the dust burning off.   Deeply visceral... "beep, beep,
> beep..."  WWV-Fort Collins.
>
> I haven't cared "much" about DST in any part of my life... it has just
> been an opportunity to stir the pot and be contrarian about something I
> know to be arbitrarily arbitrary really.   Same for metric/english/archaic
> measures.  All those things exist for good reason even if they persist for
> bad ones.
> On 11/4/22 10:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>
> OK, then.  Ken Nordine on Time.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVYpCdY4Y_0
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:33 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Protection_Act#:~:text=The%20bill%20received%20bipartisan%20support,consent%20on%20March%2015%2C%202022.
>> steeeve
>> It's a BFD to me because of GP. mucking about with the clock a ruining
>> winter is dumb.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:26 PM glen  wrote:
>>
>>> Honestly, I just don't get why it's such a big deal. Sure, it's
>>> obsolete. And maybe it kills a few people, raises cortisol, etc. But there
>>> are so many other things that affect our (sleep) cycles soo much more,
>>> like obesity, alcoholism, wage slavery, TikTok fomo, ... on and on. Passing
>>> such a law feels like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Or maybe
>>> complaining about how a reporter discussing Putin mispronounces "nukular"
>>> ... an odd thing to complain about while the ICBM heads your way.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/4/22 15:17, Steve Smith wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On 11/4/22 4:14 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>>> >> Didn't the sunshine act already pass? but yes I agree I despise the
>>> clock change bull sh It takes effect next year unless Turtle neck had
>>> his usual tantrum.
>>> >
>>> >  From the linked article:
>>> >
>>> > /Earlier this year, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed bipartisan
>>> legislation to abolish clock changes and make daylight saving time
>>> permanent, beginning in 2023. Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida,
>>> introducedthe Sunshine Protection Act <
>>> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>//, and
>>> Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Oregon, was among the co-sponsors./
>>> >
>>> > /"Glad the Senate has passed the Sunshine Protection Act so
>>> Oregonians aren’t springing back & forth each year in a silly exercise that
>>> hurts everybody’s health & our economy," Wyden tweeted March 15. "Time now
>>> for the House to act."/
>>> >
>>> > /In June 2022, the U.S. House failed to pass the bill, which is
>>> now stalled and scheduled to expire in December./
>>> >
>>> > /Let the debate resume in March 2023./
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:10 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> as we all know I'm no fan of semi-annual clock changes... and I
>>> thought the Sunshine Act <
>>> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>would put
>>> an end to that nonsense even if did fall on the "wrong side" with a
>>> year-round DST timesqew.   Looks like it is going to fail despite
>>> bipartisan support in the Senate (unsurprising that Florida, closest to the
>>> equator, effected least, would be the one to sponsor/promote it?)...
>>> >>
>>> >> Oregon (in coordination with CA/WA) have tried to take things
>>> into their own hands independent of the rest of the country?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2022/11/03/oregon-daylight-saving-time-november-march/69613463007/
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> I suppose I could liv

Re: [FRIAM] Obligatory (and gratuitous?) screed about time changes.

[Gillian Densmore]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Protection_Act#:~:text=The%20bill%20received%20bipartisan%20support,consent%20on%20March%2015%2C%202022.
steeeve
It's a BFD to me because of GP. mucking about with the clock a ruining
winter is dumb.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:26 PM glen  wrote:

> Honestly, I just don't get why it's such a big deal. Sure, it's obsolete.
> And maybe it kills a few people, raises cortisol, etc. But there are so
> many other things that affect our (sleep) cycles soo much more, like
> obesity, alcoholism, wage slavery, TikTok fomo, ... on and on. Passing such
> a law feels like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Or maybe
> complaining about how a reporter discussing Putin mispronounces "nukular"
> ... an odd thing to complain about while the ICBM heads your way.
>
>
> On 11/4/22 15:17, Steve Smith wrote:
> >
> > On 11/4/22 4:14 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> >> Didn't the sunshine act already pass? but yes I agree I despise the
> clock change bull sh It takes effect next year unless Turtle neck had
> his usual tantrum.
> >
> >  From the linked article:
> >
> > /Earlier this year, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed bipartisan
> legislation to abolish clock changes and make daylight saving time
> permanent, beginning in 2023. Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida,
> introducedthe Sunshine Protection Act <
> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>//, and Sen.
> Ron Wyden, D-Oregon, was among the co-sponsors./
> >
> > /"Glad the Senate has passed the Sunshine Protection Act so
> Oregonians aren’t springing back & forth each year in a silly exercise that
> hurts everybody’s health & our economy," Wyden tweeted March 15. "Time now
> for the House to act."/
> >
> > /In June 2022, the U.S. House failed to pass the bill, which is now
> stalled and scheduled to expire in December./
> >
> > /Let the debate resume in March 2023./
> >
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:10 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
> >>
> >> as we all know I'm no fan of semi-annual clock changes... and I
> thought the Sunshine Act <
> https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>would put an
> end to that nonsense even if did fall on the "wrong side" with a year-round
> DST timesqew.   Looks like it is going to fail despite bipartisan support
> in the Senate (unsurprising that Florida, closest to the equator, effected
> least, would be the one to sponsor/promote it?)...
> >>
> >> Oregon (in coordination with CA/WA) have tried to take things into
> their own hands independent of the rest of the country?
> >>
> >>
> https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2022/11/03/oregon-daylight-saving-time-november-march/69613463007/
> >>
> >>
> >> I suppose I could live with the sqew and just change the idioms
> from 12 noon and 12 midnight to 11 noon and 11 midnight and call it a
> day/year/life.   Seems like it would just make more sense to sqew the 8-5
> (or 9-4) for bankers) an hour earlier instead, but what is the point of
> having a state/federal/global government if it isn't going to decide for
> you how we index time?
> >>
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Obligatory (and gratuitous?) screed about time changes.

[Gillian Densmore]

how in the f*** do we ...nevermind. I was looking forward to no more clock
nonsense. and sick and tired of how incompetent the government is. just
pass the gd bill it hurts no one and helps everyone. I guess I'll be moving
to Arizona, they got at least that much right.
God I despise the goverment.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:17 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 11/4/22 4:14 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> Didn't the sunshine act already pass? but yes I agree I despise the clock
> change bull sh   It takes effect next year unless Turtle neck had his
> usual tantrum.
>
> From the linked article:
>
> *Earlier this year, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed bipartisan
> legislation to abolish clock changes and make daylight saving time
> permanent, beginning in 2023. Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida, introduced* *the
> Sunshine Protection Act
> <https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>**, and
> Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Oregon, was among the co-sponsors.*
>
> *"Glad the Senate has passed the Sunshine Protection Act so Oregonians
> aren’t springing back & forth each year in a silly exercise that hurts
> everybody’s health & our economy," Wyden tweeted March 15. "Time now for
> the House to act."*
>
> *In June 2022, the U.S. House failed to pass the bill, which is now
> stalled and scheduled to expire in December.*
>
> *Let the debate resume in March 2023.*
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:10 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> as we all know I'm no fan of semi-annual clock changes... and I thought
>> the Sunshine Act
>> <https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623>would put
>> an end to that nonsense even if did fall on the "wrong side" with a
>> year-round DST timesqew.   Looks like it is going to fail despite
>> bipartisan support in the Senate (unsurprising that Florida, closest to the
>> equator, effected least, would be the one to sponsor/promote it?)...
>>
>> Oregon (in coordination with CA/WA) have tried to take things into their
>> own hands independent of the rest of the country?
>>
>>
>> https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2022/11/03/oregon-daylight-saving-time-november-march/69613463007/
>>
>>
>> I suppose I could live with the sqew and just change the idioms from 12
>> noon and 12 midnight to 11 noon and 11 midnight and call it a
>> day/year/life.   Seems like it would just make more sense to sqew the 8-5
>> (or 9-4) for bankers) an hour earlier instead, but what is the point of
>> having a state/federal/global government if it isn't going to decide for
>> you how we index time?
>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Obligatory (and gratuitous?) screed about time changes.

[Gillian Densmore]

Didn't the sunshine act already pass? but yes I agree I despise the clock
change bull sh   It takes effect next year unless Turtle neck had his
usual tantrum.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 4:10 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> as we all know I'm no fan of semi-annual clock changes... and I thought
> the Sunshine Act
> would put
> an end to that nonsense even if did fall on the "wrong side" with a
> year-round DST timesqew.   Looks like it is going to fail despite
> bipartisan support in the Senate (unsurprising that Florida, closest to the
> equator, effected least, would be the one to sponsor/promote it?)...
>
> Oregon (in coordination with CA/WA) have tried to take things into their
> own hands independent of the rest of the country?
>
>
> https://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2022/11/03/oregon-daylight-saving-time-november-march/69613463007/
>
>
> I suppose I could live with the sqew and just change the idioms from 12
> noon and 12 midnight to 11 noon and 11 midnight and call it a
> day/year/life.   Seems like it would just make more sense to sqew the 8-5
> (or 9-4) for bankers) an hour earlier instead, but what is the point of
> having a state/federal/global government if it isn't going to decide for
> you how we index time?
>
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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[FRIAM] Phone for that?

[Gillian Densmore]

Marcos,
Which phone should I get to replace my pixel4a? Ideally has a real keyboard
because I don't like typing on glass. And also ideally is fun in someway,
because at 300 or 500 dollars that's a decent investment.
I like Uninhertz titan for checking all the boxes. But square screen
I like the Note 9 for price but no keyboard.
Others say: ollet see if this small keyboard and a case works .
ARGH where's my phone then? haalp!
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[FRIAM] they tell me to cast a ballot

[Gillian Densmore]

Since they insist:
ballot code humor:{{ballot.value | json}}
ballots cast: {{ballot.get(‘ballotInfo’).value | json}}

I'll C# my way out now.
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Re: [FRIAM] phones with keyboards, or a keyboard you can buy for a phone?

[Gillian Densmore]

Nice find roger! thanks man!

On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 7:03 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Gil --
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Keyboard-Rechargeable-Wireless-Smartphones/dp/B07XCP3THX
> is the right size for every day carry and error free thumb typing, but
> you'd have to figure out your own phone mount.
>
> Here's the list of all four phones with keyboards from earlier this year:
> https://www.androidauthority.com/keyboard-phones-845839/
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 6:52 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Mmm. Well what i'm looking for something that might work on the go. Like
>> shopping or or something. When/if I get texts, or remember to get or do
>> something kind of thing.  So I don't need to type in get milk, or call
>> therapist if I have the right day. 20 times  to a avoid 99 errors, have a
>> neck crink, tired, and be in a foul, or feline mood when I get home. How
>> would I search for a case where the KB slides down for when I need it? Do
>> they even exist?
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 4:37 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>>> Pity you can't just switch your computer keyboard to act as your phone's
>>> character input, as if you were swapping the phone in as another screen.
>>>
>>> Almost any bluetooth keyboard should work, and there are tons of them on
>>> amazon if you search "bluetooth mini keyboard", and they're cheap.  They're
>>> probably too cheap to last for very long.  So maybe look at the DIY
>>> keyboard makers, too.
>>>
>>> -- rec --
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:55 PM Gary Schiltz <
>>> g...@naturesvisualarts.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I get by with a two year old iPhone SE. I also hate typing on glass,
>>>> but I have a laptop for typing.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 11:01 AM Gillian Densmore
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hello, all looking for phone recommendations. My pixel 4a is 2 years
>>>> old feeling closer to 4.
>>>> > Are there any phones you can get with a keyboard? I know about
>>>> unihertz's titan. and it amuses me. But niche brand. I just don't like
>>>> typing on glass, and being frustrated with the amount of errors I get.
>>>> > What about a case that'd have a keyboard that'd slide out? that'd be
>>>> fine.
>>>> > after that I'm looking for good  battery, nice aesthetics and. fun
>>>> features also would be fantastic. I'm thinking of how apples phones now let
>>>> you use lidar to scan stuff to convert to photosomethingery  in 3D. Or how
>>>> older phones you could theme.
>>>> > I'd prefer the refurbed (on GP): both to reduce waste and sane
>>>> prices. 600-900+ for phones is just bad. Where as 300-500 is at least sane.
>>>> > What all do folks pay for phones? any recommendations?
>>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> > to (un)subscribe
>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] phones with keyboards, or a keyboard you can buy for a phone?

[Gillian Densmore]

Mmm. Well what i'm looking for something that might work on the go. Like
shopping or or something. When/if I get texts, or remember to get or do
something kind of thing.  So I don't need to type in get milk, or call
therapist if I have the right day. 20 times  to a avoid 99 errors, have a
neck crink, tired, and be in a foul, or feline mood when I get home. How
would I search for a case where the KB slides down for when I need it? Do
they even exist?

On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 4:37 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Pity you can't just switch your computer keyboard to act as your phone's
> character input, as if you were swapping the phone in as another screen.
>
> Almost any bluetooth keyboard should work, and there are tons of them on
> amazon if you search "bluetooth mini keyboard", and they're cheap.  They're
> probably too cheap to last for very long.  So maybe look at the DIY
> keyboard makers, too.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 12:55 PM Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
>> I get by with a two year old iPhone SE. I also hate typing on glass,
>> but I have a laptop for typing.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 11:01 AM Gillian Densmore
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello, all looking for phone recommendations. My pixel 4a is 2 years
>> old feeling closer to 4.
>> > Are there any phones you can get with a keyboard? I know about
>> unihertz's titan. and it amuses me. But niche brand. I just don't like
>> typing on glass, and being frustrated with the amount of errors I get.
>> > What about a case that'd have a keyboard that'd slide out? that'd be
>> fine.
>> > after that I'm looking for good  battery, nice aesthetics and. fun
>> features also would be fantastic. I'm thinking of how apples phones now let
>> you use lidar to scan stuff to convert to photosomethingery  in 3D. Or how
>> older phones you could theme.
>> > I'd prefer the refurbed (on GP): both to reduce waste and sane prices.
>> 600-900+ for phones is just bad. Where as 300-500 is at least sane.
>> > What all do folks pay for phones? any recommendations?
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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[FRIAM] phones with keyboards, or a keyboard you can buy for a phone?

[Gillian Densmore]

Hello, all looking for phone recommendations. My pixel 4a is 2 years old
feeling closer to 4.
Are there any phones you can get with a keyboard? I know about
unihertz's titan. and it amuses me. But niche brand. I just don't like
typing on glass, and being frustrated with the amount of errors I get.
What about a case that'd have a keyboard that'd slide out? that'd be fine.
after that I'm looking for good  battery, nice aesthetics and. fun features
also would be fantastic. I'm thinking of how apples phones now let you use
lidar to scan stuff to convert to photosomethingery  in 3D. Or how older
phones you could theme.
I'd prefer the refurbed (on GP): both to reduce waste and sane prices.
600-900+ for phones is just bad. Where as 300-500 is at least sane.
What all do folks pay for phones? any recommendations?
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
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Re: [FRIAM] cable modem?

[Gillian Densmore]

What's folks experience with all in one WiFi+modem? I ask because nighthawk
has a bunch of refurbed modems (prefer refurbed just to reduce waste). But
if it's actually a legit better idea to go wifi and modem for whatever
reasons, what're good wifirouters then?

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 12:34 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> wirecutter says motorola MB7621 for 600Mb plans, netgear CM500 for up to
> 300Mb plans, and motorola MB8600 for gigabit plans.
>
> I use the 600Mb recommended modem for my 300Mb comcast service on the
> theory that I get to use channels which 300Mb modems cannot see, so I have
> less resource contention interference, but I've never tried to verify that.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 11:27 AM Tom Johnson 
> wrote:
>
>> If you're using Xfinity, always buy.  They rent a very good modem, but
>> the cost/benefit ratio is a ripoff.  That said, Xfinity itself recommends a
>> good Motorola modem available at Best Buy.  I have one.  It's been fine.
>> Tom
>>
>> ===
>> Tom Johnson
>> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico
>> 505-577-6482
>> ===
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 7:23 AM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all, the  TLDR is this:
>>> -Needed a new cable modem because the one I have got flakey, temporarily
>>> leasing one.
>>> -What all do people suggest these days: rent or own?
>>> -If then: own: Who's good now?
>>> -If: Rent: any reasoning standout?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> Back to debating measuring consciousness. I think that is measured in
>>> the amount of  coffee consumed. I'll test that theory while black
>>> caffeinated liquid fills my Karrif.
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Owen Densmore, father of object-oriented postcript in NeWS object.ps, desktop publishing and relation to NEXT [was: Re: naive question]

[Gillian Densmore]

Here's a fun speculative question to: how different would the computing
landscape look now: if apple dug clones, and decided they were worth it?
and what if BeOS did become apples new OS?--I feel like I aged myself.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:50 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> IIRC very badly as was MacOS was held back by...games of all things. But
> IIRC Adobe was quickly onto apples because picky people liked how it
> handled colours. That is compared to Windows 3.1 and 94(?) lol and yes Dad
> is a hero. LOL and yes I am biased.
> Pagemaker ? wowsa that's a name from the past! LOL.
> The reason why games didn't help Apples (then) uncertain future, as well
> was because kids (teens) was  who pestered John, Chade, Kyle, or Karen to
> get a new computer. Apple didn't  have that for a long time, not allowing
> clones up to a 2 year golden renaissance  years later also hurt them. BeOS
> at the time was more macos then macos.. So you had a glorified printer and
> webpage publisher that'd cost 5-7k+. Compare that to the PC world a 900$ pc
> was keeping pace with apple, steve jobs and his ego. That when Chad was
> done with homework, or kyle done writing a report. They might sign into a
> BBS to play bolo, or a MUD.
> Apple had to sell the UI and UX.
>
> Sufficed  to say Dad was up all night  (almost literally). cursing at
> "the yapping dogs" and yelling "* ing hell steve[the steve jobs kind]
> what now!, oh would you like me to pull a rabbit out of my  while I'm
> at it, we need to give it a ipadress so it's adressable by postscript!" .
> But him, Steve Caserous eta all did it! and now the now speech isfamous
> speech.  And Dad doesn't think he's a good programmer still. lol. Eh well
> not all heroes were capes, He's a Hero IMO.
> Get him to tell you about the time he proved you as long as a device has
> some sense of network addressing, you can get it to do almost anything,
> including drive monitors.  Or when him and Ben Stalts pranked SkunkWorks
> Sun with upside down displays using nothing more than NeWS's postscript,
> scripting code.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 4:54 PM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 11:30 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>> My copy of Glenn Reid's 1990 Thinking in PostScript
>>> <https://w3-o.cs.hm.edu/users/ruckert/public_html/compiler/ThinkingInPostScript.pdf>
>>> sat on my shelf for two decades singing a siren song that wasn't ever quite
>>> strong enough for me to give it my full attention for the few weeks/months
>>> I believe it deserved.
>>>
>>> Someday (if humanity survives another century, or interstellar visitors
>>> bother to crack our rusty harddrives) this will all be as much fun as the
>>> vestigal (aka "junk") DNA we started finding when we started ubiquitous
>>> DNA/RNA sequencing.  It must all be "good for something"? Right?  Clearly
>>> was at one time!
>>>
>>> Fascinating that anyone (besides me) is even discussing such things 30
>>> years later:  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115946
>>>
>>
>> 40 years earlier: From the same site, here's the first public demo of the
>> Mac in Boston in 1984. with Steve Jobs and the full Mac team onstage. I
>> think Owen is the hero of the group, though I'm biased :-)
>>
>>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29295116
>>
>>
>> From that site:
>> He called out Owen Densmore for writing the printing routines at 10m45s:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqQJ-VnJ2uc=10m45s
>>
>> And Owen answered a question about printing at 15m:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqQJ-VnJ2uc=15m
>>
>> Owen is a brilliant programmer and "User Interface Flower Child", who led
>> the "Print Shop" group at Apple that created the printing architecture for
>> Apple's Lisa and Macintosh hardware, working closely with John Warnock and
>> other Adobe engineers on the LaserWriter.
>>
>>
>> Check out Steve Job's MIT Sloan Business school when he was at NEXT
>> referencing the importance of Owen's work that became desktop publishing on
>> Apple which was the Trojan Horse that launched Apple into mainstream
>> corporate:
>>
>>
>> https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-talks-leaving-apple-lessons-in-management-1992-mit-lecture-video-2018-5
>>
>> On the Macintosh's killer app and how he didn't see it coming (10:30):
>> "We never anticipated desktop publishing when we created the Mac. Sounds
>> funny because that turned out to be the Mac's compelling advantage, t

Re: [FRIAM] Owen Densmore, father of object-oriented postcript in NeWS object.ps, desktop publishing and relation to NEXT [was: Re: naive question]

[Gillian Densmore]

IIRC very badly as was MacOS was held back by...games of all things. But
IIRC Adobe was quickly onto apples because picky people liked how it
handled colours. That is compared to Windows 3.1 and 94(?) lol and yes Dad
is a hero. LOL and yes I am biased.
Pagemaker ? wowsa that's a name from the past! LOL.
The reason why games didn't help Apples (then) uncertain future, as well
was because kids (teens) was  who pestered John, Chade, Kyle, or Karen to
get a new computer. Apple didn't  have that for a long time, not allowing
clones up to a 2 year golden renaissance  years later also hurt them. BeOS
at the time was more macos then macos.. So you had a glorified printer and
webpage publisher that'd cost 5-7k+. Compare that to the PC world a 900$ pc
was keeping pace with apple, steve jobs and his ego. That when Chad was
done with homework, or kyle done writing a report. They might sign into a
BBS to play bolo, or a MUD.
Apple had to sell the UI and UX.

Sufficed  to say Dad was up all night  (almost literally). cursing at  "the
yapping dogs" and yelling "* ing hell steve[the steve jobs kind] what
now!, oh would you like me to pull a rabbit out of my  while I'm at it,
we need to give it a ipadress so it's adressable by postscript!" . But him,
Steve Caserous eta all did it! and now the now speech isfamous speech.  And
Dad doesn't think he's a good programmer still. lol. Eh well not all heroes
were capes, He's a Hero IMO.
Get him to tell you about the time he proved you as long as a device has
some sense of network addressing, you can get it to do almost anything,
including drive monitors.  Or when him and Ben Stalts pranked SkunkWorks
Sun with upside down displays using nothing more than NeWS's postscript,
scripting code.




On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 4:54 PM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 11:30 AM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> My copy of Glenn Reid's 1990 Thinking in PostScript
>> 
>> sat on my shelf for two decades singing a siren song that wasn't ever quite
>> strong enough for me to give it my full attention for the few weeks/months
>> I believe it deserved.
>>
>> Someday (if humanity survives another century, or interstellar visitors
>> bother to crack our rusty harddrives) this will all be as much fun as the
>> vestigal (aka "junk") DNA we started finding when we started ubiquitous
>> DNA/RNA sequencing.  It must all be "good for something"? Right?  Clearly
>> was at one time!
>>
>> Fascinating that anyone (besides me) is even discussing such things 30
>> years later:  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28115946
>>
>
> 40 years earlier: From the same site, here's the first public demo of the
> Mac in Boston in 1984. with Steve Jobs and the full Mac team onstage. I
> think Owen is the hero of the group, though I'm biased :-)
>
>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29295116
>
>
> From that site:
> He called out Owen Densmore for writing the printing routines at 10m45s:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqQJ-VnJ2uc=10m45s
>
> And Owen answered a question about printing at 15m:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqQJ-VnJ2uc=15m
>
> Owen is a brilliant programmer and "User Interface Flower Child", who led
> the "Print Shop" group at Apple that created the printing architecture for
> Apple's Lisa and Macintosh hardware, working closely with John Warnock and
> other Adobe engineers on the LaserWriter.
>
>
> Check out Steve Job's MIT Sloan Business school when he was at NEXT
> referencing the importance of Owen's work that became desktop publishing on
> Apple which was the Trojan Horse that launched Apple into mainstream
> corporate:
>
>
> https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-talks-leaving-apple-lessons-in-management-1992-mit-lecture-video-2018-5
>
> On the Macintosh's killer app and how he didn't see it coming (10:30):
> "We never anticipated desktop publishing when we created the Mac. Sounds
> funny because that turned out to be the Mac's compelling advantage, the
> thing it did, not 1.5 or 2 times better than everything else, but 4, 5
> times better than anything else, where you had to had one."
>
>
> "We anticipated bitmap displays and laser printers but we never thought
> about Pagemaker, that whole industry really coming down on the desktop.
> Maybe we weren't smart enough. But we were smart enough to see it happen
> 9-12 months later. And we changed our entire marketing and business
> strategy to focus on desktop publishing, and it became the Trojan Horse
> that finally got the Mac into corporate America.
>
>
>
>
>
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> 

[FRIAM] cable modem?

[Gillian Densmore]

Hi all, the  TLDR is this:
-Needed a new cable modem because the one I have got flakey, temporarily
leasing one.
-What all do people suggest these days: rent or own?
-If then: own: Who's good now?
-If: Rent: any reasoning standout?

Thank you.
Back to debating measuring consciousness. I think that is measured in the
amount of  coffee consumed. I'll test that theory while black
caffeinated liquid fills my Karrif.
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Is consciousness measurable?

[Gillian Densmore]

Umm fun fact: the reason so much Ai development uses female models first is
because of a much easier timer 'reading' the Ai's emotions.  Yeah yeah.
back in the day geeks being single males, was why. Now it turns out it's
much easier to predict and model female ai's . Male Ai's for what ever
reason, tend to get hostile, moody, and unpredictable quickly. I have no
idea why. Purely as a measuring stick for advances of  consciousness. those
kinds of things was when we knew we were close to neuro nets with at least
somewhat quantifiable spooky programing and some measuring stick for amount
of  consciousness. I have no idea how, or why that happened.
People that know vastly more about the field of Ai hopefully do know what
all the above tends to be true.


On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 11:16 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 10/18/22 10:21 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
>
> A deep learning system set up for next sentence prediction, one that
> consumed gigabytes of literature, would learn to mimic emotions as
> expressed in writing.   It would likely have mappings of context and events
> to plausible emotional descriptions.   It would have latent encodings about
> the same kinds of things that a person would care about, if exposed to the
> same information.   It might well have latent states for fear and love and
> such.   My conclusion would be that emotions are not to be taken so
> seriously.
>
> In the early days of N-gram (early for me, early also because CPU/Storage
> had gotten cheap enough for large corpii) analysis I was impressed with how
> prophetic something *that* simple could be was.   Today's
> spell-correction/suggestion etc. stuff is eerie (uncanny?) to me.   A few
> years ago I wouldn't have imagined that convincing "next sentence
> prediction" was imminent, but now I'm ready to expect it any second.
> Similar with body-language prediction as a corollary to this *and* to
> automated driving...
>
> In a couple of hours, Dick Gabriel will be giving his talk at SimTable on
> his Poetry Generator Inkwell, which I have had my doubts about in
> principle.   His scholarly essay on the topic The Nature of Poetic Order
> <http://www.natureoforder.com/library/nature-of-poetic-order.pdf> is too
> large (100 pages) and dense for me to have quaffed in the time available,
> but the bits I *have* been able to take in are very promising as one (of
> many possible?) perspectives on higher order semantic analysis of texts.
>
> I don't think writing or analyzing poetry is necessarily anything like the
> pinnacle of conscious processing, but it is probably an
> important/interesting edge/corner case.
>
> I'm still processing your concluding statement "emotions are not to be
> taken so seriously".   I watch my young puppy/kitty growing up together and
> virtually *all* I can parse from their interactions with one another, their
> people and their physical enviornment IS emotional, and they either take it
> all very seriously or not at all?
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2022, at 5:36 PM, Gillian Densmore 
>  wrote:
>
> 
> *terminator soundtrack here*
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 5:55 PM Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe lack of emotion, but ability to 'fake it' by repeating what it
>> read a being with that emotion would say only proves the AI is a sociopath
>> or psychopath.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>>
>> When Blake Lemoine claimed that LaMDA was conscious, it struck me that
>> one way to test that would be to determine whether one could evoke an
>> emotional response from it.  You can't cause it physical pain since it
>> doesn't have sense organs. But, one could ask it if it cares about
>> anything. If so, threaten to harm whatever it is it cares about and see how
>> it responds. A nice feature of this test, or something similar, is that you
>> wouldn't tell it what the reasonable emotional responses might be.
>> Otherwise, it could simply repeat what it read a being with that emotion
>> would say.  One might argue that emotion is not a necessary element of
>> consciousness, but I think a being without emotion would be at best a pale
>> version of consciousness.
>>
>> -- Russ Abbott
>> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
>> California State University, Los Angeles
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:14 PM Prof David West 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I an concurrently reading, *Nineteen Ways of Looking at Consciousness*,
>> by Patrick House and *Mountain in the Sea*, by Ray Nayler. The latter is
>> fiction. (The former, because it deals with consciousness may also be
>> fiction, but it purports to be neuro-scientific

Re: [FRIAM] Is consciousness measurable?

[Gillian Densmore]

*list of things Cybermen do to make even the Dr yell
RN! and book  it to the TARDIS as well here*


On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 6:35 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> *terminator soundtrack here*
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 5:55 PM Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe lack of emotion, but ability to 'fake it' by repeating what it
>> read a being with that emotion would say only proves the AI is a sociopath
>> or psychopath.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>>
>> When Blake Lemoine claimed that LaMDA was conscious, it struck me that
>> one way to test that would be to determine whether one could evoke an
>> emotional response from it.  You can't cause it physical pain since it
>> doesn't have sense organs. But, one could ask it if it cares about
>> anything. If so, threaten to harm whatever it is it cares about and see how
>> it responds. A nice feature of this test, or something similar, is that you
>> wouldn't tell it what the reasonable emotional responses might be.
>> Otherwise, it could simply repeat what it read a being with that emotion
>> would say.  One might argue that emotion is not a necessary element of
>> consciousness, but I think a being without emotion would be at best a pale
>> version of consciousness.
>>
>> -- Russ Abbott
>> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
>> California State University, Los Angeles
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:14 PM Prof David West 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I an concurrently reading, *Nineteen Ways of Looking at Consciousness*,
>> by Patrick House and *Mountain in the Sea*, by Ray Nayler. The latter is
>> fiction. (The former, because it deals with consciousness may also be
>> fiction, but it purports to be neuro-scientific / philosophical.)
>>
>> The novel is about Octopi and AI and an android, plus humans and
>> juxtaposes ideas about consciousness in comparison and contrast. A lot of
>> fun.
>>
>> Both books pose some interesting questions and both support glen's
>> advocacy of a typology.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 1:26 PM, glen wrote:
>> > There are many different measures of *types* of consciousness. But
>> > without specifying the type, such questions are not even philosophical.
>> > They're nonsense.
>> >
>> > For example, the test of whether one can recognize one's image in a
>> > mirror couldn't be performed by a chatbot. But it is one of the
>> > measures of consciousness. Another type of test would be those that
>> > measure conscious state before, during, and after anesthesia. Again,
>> > that wouldn't work the same for a chatbot. But both aggregate measures
>> > like EEG and fMRI connectomes might have analogs in tracing for
>> > algorithms like ANNs. If we could simply decide "Yes, *that* chatbot is
>> > what we're going to call conscious and, therefore, the traced patterns
>> > it exhibits in the profiler are the correlates for chatbot
>> > consciousness." Then we'd have a trace-based test to perform on other
>> > chatbots *with similar computational structure*.
>> >
>> > Hell, the cops have their tests for consciousness executed at drunk
>> > driving checkpoints. Look up and touch your nose. Recite the alphabet
>> > backwards. Etc. These are tests for types of consciousness. Of course,
>> > I feel sure there are people who'd like to move the goal posts and
>> > claim "That's not Consciousness with a big C." Pffft. No typology ⇒ no
>> > science. So if someone can't list off a few distinct types of
>> > consciousness, then it's not even philosophy.
>> >
>> > On 10/18/22 13:12, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>> >> Paul Buchheit asked on Twitter
>> >> https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600
>> >>
>> >> "Is consciousness measurable, or is it just a philosophical concept?
>> If an AI claims to be conscious, how do we know that it's not simply
>> faking/imitating consciousness? Is there something that I could challenge
>> it with to prove/disprove consciousness?"
>> >>
>> >> What do you think? Interesting question.
>> >>
>> >> -J.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>> >
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns

Re: [FRIAM] Is consciousness measurable?

[Gillian Densmore]

*terminator soundtrack here*

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 5:55 PM Prof David West 
wrote:

> Maybe lack of emotion, but ability to 'fake it' by repeating what it read
> a being with that emotion would say only proves the AI is a sociopath or
> psychopath.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 4:44 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>
> When Blake Lemoine claimed that LaMDA was conscious, it struck me that
> one way to test that would be to determine whether one could evoke an
> emotional response from it.  You can't cause it physical pain since it
> doesn't have sense organs. But, one could ask it if it cares about
> anything. If so, threaten to harm whatever it is it cares about and see how
> it responds. A nice feature of this test, or something similar, is that you
> wouldn't tell it what the reasonable emotional responses might be.
> Otherwise, it could simply repeat what it read a being with that emotion
> would say.  One might argue that emotion is not a necessary element of
> consciousness, but I think a being without emotion would be at best a pale
> version of consciousness.
>
> -- Russ Abbott
> Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:14 PM Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
>
> I an concurrently reading, *Nineteen Ways of Looking at Consciousness*,
> by Patrick House and *Mountain in the Sea*, by Ray Nayler. The latter is
> fiction. (The former, because it deals with consciousness may also be
> fiction, but it purports to be neuro-scientific / philosophical.)
>
> The novel is about Octopi and AI and an android, plus humans and
> juxtaposes ideas about consciousness in comparison and contrast. A lot of
> fun.
>
> Both books pose some interesting questions and both support glen's
> advocacy of a typology.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 1:26 PM, glen wrote:
> > There are many different measures of *types* of consciousness. But
> > without specifying the type, such questions are not even philosophical.
> > They're nonsense.
> >
> > For example, the test of whether one can recognize one's image in a
> > mirror couldn't be performed by a chatbot. But it is one of the
> > measures of consciousness. Another type of test would be those that
> > measure conscious state before, during, and after anesthesia. Again,
> > that wouldn't work the same for a chatbot. But both aggregate measures
> > like EEG and fMRI connectomes might have analogs in tracing for
> > algorithms like ANNs. If we could simply decide "Yes, *that* chatbot is
> > what we're going to call conscious and, therefore, the traced patterns
> > it exhibits in the profiler are the correlates for chatbot
> > consciousness." Then we'd have a trace-based test to perform on other
> > chatbots *with similar computational structure*.
> >
> > Hell, the cops have their tests for consciousness executed at drunk
> > driving checkpoints. Look up and touch your nose. Recite the alphabet
> > backwards. Etc. These are tests for types of consciousness. Of course,
> > I feel sure there are people who'd like to move the goal posts and
> > claim "That's not Consciousness with a big C." Pffft. No typology ⇒ no
> > science. So if someone can't list off a few distinct types of
> > consciousness, then it's not even philosophy.
> >
> > On 10/18/22 13:12, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> >> Paul Buchheit asked on Twitter
> >> https://twitter.com/paultoo/status/1582455708041113600
> >>
> >> "Is consciousness measurable, or is it just a philosophical concept? If
> an AI claims to be conscious, how do we know that it's not simply
> faking/imitating consciousness? Is there something that I could challenge
> it with to prove/disprove consciousness?"
> >>
> >> What do you think? Interesting question.
> >>
> >> -J.
> >
> >
> > --
> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> >
> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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Re: [FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done

[Gillian Densmore]

hmmm so what does that about us when something is a royal PIT ?  is
the   then where your brain is located then? if so might explain a few
things. :P thank you, thank you. I'll see my self out.

On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 1:44 PM  wrote:

> A highly regarded pain expert, Dr. Carmen Green, talking about chronic
> pain on the pod cast of an equally highly regarded neurosurgeon, Dr.
> Sanjay Gupta:
>
>
>
> *“… pain is also perceived in the brain, so it’s not only in your head.”*
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] culinary Complexity question

[Gillian Densmore]

Oh neet. I didn't know their's more than one kind of capsaicin. I wonder if
part of the extra complexity for flavoring is somehow because of
endorphins. Plus having washed it down with beer (and milk if that's your
thing).  Then it'd become a question of what beer is best to battle the
fireball of chilli? I'm thinking a good belgium or IPA  (RIP second street)
would be solidly in the top 10 for flavor and alcohol.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 1:24 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> This article explains why spicy food tastes the way it does and why it
> burns so much: it activates the receptors for heat and pain.
>
> https://www.compoundchem.com/2014/01/15/why-chilli-peppers-are-spicy-the-chemistry-of-a-chilli/
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message ----
> From: Gillian Densmore 
> Date: 10/17/22 3:06 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: [FRIAM] culinary Complexity question
>
> I suspect because...fall. Been enjoying somewhat spicey food. Question is
> what, if any, science is their to green chile(as in the spice, like
> Jalapeno, or what ever). That brings out flavoring. I get that it adds
> dimension, ala MSG and Salts. But hadn't thought about: what in particular
> it is about peppers and spices science that'd do that. I gather
> that  Capsaicin found in peppers basically wakes the tongue up. Before
> introducing the heat. But ok so what about the rest? is it more flavoring
> science? kind of like how fudge or chocolate brings something to icecream?
> Just me waxing poetic while wondering why i had seconds of a dense dish.
> And also wondering what new state of matter i turned into. I feel as though
> I gained several stones and need forklift to move now.
>
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[FRIAM] culinary Complexity question

[Gillian Densmore]

I suspect because...fall. Been enjoying somewhat spicey food. Question is
what, if any, science is their to green chile(as in the spice, like
Jalapeno, or what ever). That brings out flavoring. I get that it adds
dimension, ala MSG and Salts. But hadn't thought about: what in particular
it is about peppers and spices science that'd do that. I gather
that  Capsaicin found in peppers basically wakes the tongue up. Before
introducing the heat. But ok so what about the rest? is it more flavoring
science? kind of like how fudge or chocolate brings something to icecream?
Just me waxing poetic while wondering why i had seconds of a dense dish.
And also wondering what new state of matter i turned into. I feel as though
I gained several stones and need forklift to move now.
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Re: [FRIAM] Wedtech Talk Oct 19: Richard Gabriel, AI, Creativity and the Inkwell Poetry Generator. (hybrid in-person/zoom)

[Gillian Densmore]

Ah found article about the Ai advancement I was thinking about:
https://aibusiness.com/document.asp?doc_id=780874#:~:text=Researchers%20from%20Google%20are%20the,Google%20unveiled%20back%20in%202021
.

Can someone ELi5 how they're doing it? very cool!

On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 3:33 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Coolness! Is it only writing? or going to advances in 3D where Ai shows
> some promise to do as well or better than mere mortal humans? Because a
> computes is coming to a practical wall of cost, amount of silicon and chip
> density. Is reaching a practical limit from power draw to to expenses. Ai,
> Tensor Cores, and asynchronous computing clocks at the system and chip
> levels, are looking to need Ai to coordinate things as well as boost power
> and blah blah blah. A fall out of that is Neuronets do weirdly great and
> vastly accelerating compute times in raytracing, and ray marching. I assume
> people on this list can Eli5 to me why.
> I seem to recall somewhat recently, someone showing off how Ai can do some
> amount of 3D modelling. Anyone know anything about that? I think it was a
> proof of concept. Someone from MIT and Nvidia shows how a neuronet if given
> some kind of description did a not to bad job making buildings and some
> limited simulated physics. I don't know anything about the stupendous
> effort that'd go into that though.
> Onestep closer to star trek! LOL, oh c'mon you know we're thinking it. I'm
> just typing it.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:52 AM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com> wrote:
>
>> Speaker: Richard Gabriel
>> Location: Simtable office
>> Time: Oct 19 1230p
>>
>> will be streamed at https://zoom.redfish.com
>>
>> pizza will be avail for lunch. $5 a slice.
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Steve Smith 
>>
>> My hack at the basics of an announcement for Gabriel/Wetdtech.
>>
>> Our FriAM member-at-large, Jenny Quillen is visiting Santa Fe this week
>> and has Richard Gabriel in tow.   He has agreed to give a WedTech talk this
>> week (10/19) and the nominal topic will be on AI and Creativity, using
>> examples from his Poetry Generator: Inkwell.
>>
>> Some of you know Richard's long and storied history and career much
>> better than I, so I will just drop a few links in here for those who do not:
>>
>> Richard Gabriel's Wikipedia page
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_P._Gabriel>
>>
>> Personal Website: Dreamsongs <https://dreamsongs.com/>
>>
>> Inkwell <https://dreamsongs.com/Files/InkWell.pdf>
>>
>> and a scholarly reflection on The Nature of Poetic Order
>> <http://www.natureoforder.com/library/nature-of-poetic-order.pdf> which
>> reflects on many of the ideas from Christopher Alexander's Opus: the Nature
>> of Order <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nature_of_Order> in the
>> context of poetry, what makes it work, and what makes it fail.  Among many
>> other things, Gabriel has been a significant figure in the Pattern's
>> community.
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Wedtech Talk Oct 19: Richard Gabriel, AI, Creativity and the Inkwell Poetry Generator. (hybrid in-person/zoom)

[Gillian Densmore]

Coolness! Is it only writing? or going to advances in 3D where Ai shows
some promise to do as well or better than mere mortal humans? Because a
computes is coming to a practical wall of cost, amount of silicon and chip
density. Is reaching a practical limit from power draw to to expenses. Ai,
Tensor Cores, and asynchronous computing clocks at the system and chip
levels, are looking to need Ai to coordinate things as well as boost power
and blah blah blah. A fall out of that is Neuronets do weirdly great and
vastly accelerating compute times in raytracing, and ray marching. I assume
people on this list can Eli5 to me why.
I seem to recall somewhat recently, someone showing off how Ai can do some
amount of 3D modelling. Anyone know anything about that? I think it was a
proof of concept. Someone from MIT and Nvidia shows how a neuronet if given
some kind of description did a not to bad job making buildings and some
limited simulated physics. I don't know anything about the stupendous
effort that'd go into that though.
Onestep closer to star trek! LOL, oh c'mon you know we're thinking it. I'm
just typing it.


On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> Speaker: Richard Gabriel
> Location: Simtable office
> Time: Oct 19 1230p
>
> will be streamed at https://zoom.redfish.com
>
> pizza will be avail for lunch. $5 a slice.
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Steve Smith 
>
> My hack at the basics of an announcement for Gabriel/Wetdtech.
>
> Our FriAM member-at-large, Jenny Quillen is visiting Santa Fe this week
> and has Richard Gabriel in tow.   He has agreed to give a WedTech talk this
> week (10/19) and the nominal topic will be on AI and Creativity, using
> examples from his Poetry Generator: Inkwell.
>
> Some of you know Richard's long and storied history and career much better
> than I, so I will just drop a few links in here for those who do not:
>
> Richard Gabriel's Wikipedia page
> 
>
> Personal Website: Dreamsongs 
>
> Inkwell 
>
> and a scholarly reflection on The Nature of Poetic Order
>  which
> reflects on many of the ideas from Christopher Alexander's Opus: the Nature
> of Order  in the
> context of poetry, what makes it work, and what makes it fail.  Among many
> other things, Gabriel has been a significant figure in the Pattern's
> community.
>
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[FRIAM] A few weeks with blender vs a student copy of Cinema 4D

[Gillian Densmore]

Cinema 4D might win in the important Undue button. And if this derp can
find a button and make a very basic thing. People better with 3D
definitely could...maybe. It's...nooo way, it's the WordPress of Modeling
and motion graphics? wowza just thought about that. But it is! If you don't
mind. Or can work with very cookie cutter workflow. You might like it for
taking all your complicated things to turn into something mere mortals can
(literally) see and get. But unfortunately for me that was where the wall
is. Just for trying to convert sketches into 3D or at least get to where I
could? as sexy as it's layer scheme, and Maxon's attempt to keep it
nondestructive is really cool. The UX and UI is...weird compared to even
blenders: what kind of fudge did they eat? UI and UX. Mirror a Object? much
less it's data? it might exist. make that a symmetrical virtual object?
sure NP. do even my basic level of texturing? The UV unwrap? sexy? the
adding a texture? Not so much.
And the other issues with things that ya'all know way more about than I do,
man it's something begging for love from adobe or something...because. It
almost but not quite: project map a premade very detailed texture? Well,
yeah, about that the UI for doing so is..weird and kind of clunkly
Even basic transforms get frustrating.

Blender:
>From what I recall steve knows all about this both elegant and cluster, er
um fudge recipe mess. Oh btw: Fudge: because in the world of the Friam mail
list no one says angry words. They eat fudge instead since no one actually
gets mad or upset about something. Off list you might, can say what you
actually want to say to stuff.
Anyway: blender 3.1 is surprising me I hadn't touched blender since 2.2 or
something and it was awful then. I am now seeing why people might like it:
tutorials! lots of them. And a certain kind of honesty from users. Like:
this thing it does, actually is weird, bad, or just sucks. Sufficed to say
the new to me UI and UX is...growing on me.  Don't get me wrong, some of
the stuff you *can * do with it's  procderial, node thingy, graph plug one
set of commands into another long string ala Modo or Designer is really
neet. and once you get the lane its in almost makes sense, but somethings.
Like Blender Guru, and somethers ask: how are you going to know to use: map
to actually meen a collision object for 'geometry' nodes or generators to
meen: pls make something that creates this other thing?
It falls flat on it's face for undue. it just does. save, save save.legacy
things also makes no fudge eating sense either. a origin cursor to meen:
the data of this mesh promitive or nurbe is still here, but you see it here
instead is...clunky.
On the other hand? Modifiers? OMG fantastic! wicked cool
And what i bet steve is curious about:
Yes Eevee is fast it's only raster data and objects rendering a scene or
animation? fast like  hyper kids fast.
Cycles it's engine for  Raytrace and Vecter renders is horribly slow.  I
don't know why either. I know RayTracing is how to abuse your CPU and GPU.
and that it can use CUDA or other performant systems and still be slow.
Even by raytrace and vector data standandars is super frustrating.
As a test I took a simple scene i made: it's eta? tomorrow, eventually. and
that's just 250 frames of animation with almost nothing going on.
Evee and Workbench or rockets by comparison because they cheat. Evee can do
glows, and reflections and some other things that I'd need to look up.
Which Cycles can't...yet but if you need absolutely everything rendered it
might not be a good choice.
the UI and UX 200 times better than the 2.x days.
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[FRIAM] Mice being unusually invassive, anyone else?

[Gillian Densmore]

Unless Steve has a different take, then I totally respect it and etc.

OmFG. This year they keep coming. It's been years since I've had a full on
mouse invasion. And wonder: what the fudge chocolates causes it (clean
house) and what folks do about it..beyond 999 mice traps.
Easily 10 yeated out of the house just this last week alone. Do mice
migrate? Get together and decide who to drive up the wall? How does this
work? and how do I convince them: enter, and die.? (barf).
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Re: [FRIAM] pardon the interuption,

[Gillian Densmore]

Steve, thanks again! And that's spot on.for I hoped existed but are
heartened that it'll be any month or year. that's reely cool. Love reading
about the cross section of Ai and 3D work for that!
Do they even bother with projection maps and UV mapping? Just from what
i've read that's a GD nightmare to make neural nets try to do. This mere
mortal being a novice, at best, to 3D as art finds it nightmare. IIR Nvidia
was working on Deep Learning, and Super Sampling so that it's Ai projects
could have a ton of visual references for things with a objectness...ie if
a door looked like it was a door it had no problem, but the instant the
images were at all lower quality (or just low polly) it'd fail. For some
reason humans can  do that better.
Any ideas why? just humans have a bunch of experience? Where if I look at
beer I go ooh yummy incoming, is it as simple as even the best neural
networks look at a cylinder and ask: what the--- is that?
I wonder how it handles odd things. Like a humanoid object that's
especially muscular. Does  guess what the back and sides would look like?


On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 1:56 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> 
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 9:11 PM Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>> Gil,
>>
>> in response to your desire to generate 3D from 2D
>>
>> I've been watching the "novel view synthesis" space using NeRF (
>> https://www.matthewtancik.com/NERF) over the last 2 years or so. It was
>> close but not exactly what you were asking for. now here's a diffusion
>> approach to generate 3D from 2D.
>> https://3d-diffusion.github.io/
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022, 3:54 PM Gillian Densmore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Complexity and what's right up peoples ally:
>>>
>>> I've gotten into sketching again. Ok that's nice you'll say. and what's
>>> have to do with a list about math you say? the fun of x z, and wtf axis!
>>> Is their a program where you can sketch stuff, and it' can figure out
>>> how to make what you have drawn into something 3D enough to chunk into
>>> artstation or other places to show off? or is this where someone first
>>> laughs, then says: you poor, inocent person, that's funny. let me sas out
>>> how wicked hard that would be!
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Re: [FRIAM] pardon the interuption,

[Gillian Densmore]



On Tue, Oct 4, 2022 at 9:11 PM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> Gil,
>
> in response to your desire to generate 3D from 2D
>
> I've been watching the "novel view synthesis" space using NeRF (
> https://www.matthewtancik.com/NERF) over the last 2 years or so. It was
> close but not exactly what you were asking for. now here's a diffusion
> approach to generate 3D from 2D.
> https://3d-diffusion.github.io/
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022, 3:54 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Complexity and what's right up peoples ally:
>>
>> I've gotten into sketching again. Ok that's nice you'll say. and what's
>> have to do with a list about math you say? the fun of x z, and wtf axis!
>> Is their a program where you can sketch stuff, and it' can figure out how
>> to make what you have drawn into something 3D enough to chunk into
>> artstation or other places to show off? or is this where someone first
>> laughs, then says: you poor, inocent person, that's funny. let me sas out
>> how wicked hard that would be!
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Pardon the interuption, for questions about banking apps

[Gillian Densmore]

Mmm BofA  for good or ill isdropping brick and mortar banks entirely. You
can't even do much without finger print id.  On me and my rides sides of
things going to any bank, even BofA isn't naturally within our paths
(insert humours pun about traveling salesman and having to sale around...ok
so that was a stretch)
I would hope that banks encrypt traffic. but then again...they were prone
oddly specific, deep  things like intercepting traffic by there...computer
monitors. As far as I know that's been patched into the age of the dodo's
I thought because banks use p2p and blockchains for connections that (in
theory) provided they have a oops fat finger that'd be slightly less risk
than when a human is in the loop (security wise). Human can  remember
user passwords, but if a computer is asked to store those in a
encrypted DB, not a chance short of a massive attack that's problem
But you say the week area is on your cellophane? I have no idea how that
works, but it's not surprising.
I think fam (ie Mum)  is more concerned about basic user experience. rather
than deep AF schenigans.  LoL I love my mom, but I made the mistake of
pointing out that as long as groups like anonymous, poodlesec etc
around...don't put something on the internet where you'd be super
screwed...but theire's
She heard: two parts: Don't put. and screwed. LoL, man I just meant that
their'd be a spectrum. Me, you(Glen) fam, and i'd guess short of folks on
the list in redicously deep goverment orgs  or coded NDA, super dooper
euphamism speach tricks. Just not that important. ie unless your pretty
public target? not a chance.  But then I also got curius, how exactly do
these banking apps do deposits by check. What common things go wrong? is
security between me and the banks good 'nuf?

On Fri, Sep 30, 2022 at 8:15 AM glen  wrote:

> Well, I'd recommend against doing any banking on your phone, or doing
> anything important with it. But if you must, do it on an exclusive device
> that doesn't automatically send everything to Google or Apple, doesn't
> automatically connect to every coffee shop wifi, etc. Make sure the whole
> phone is encrypted. Don't carry it everywhere *or* have 2 that are cloned
> so when a skateboarder whips by and grabs it out of your hand, you can run
> home and lock everything down with the clone. Use another phone for
> arbitrary plebe things like selfies and Telegram. Use aliases. If they
> don't know your real name, they can't steal your ID.
>
> Or, just don't do anything important on your phone. If it's important,
> there are other, better, ways to do it.
>
> On 9/29/22 17:07, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > I just recently got more of a proper bank account with BofA after a
> 'misshap'  with a cashcard. Keeping it relevant to Friam I think family has
> some umm mmm concerns about data security, and...ok so what they really
> would like to know for using the apps to make deposits by check. is How
> likely is it for things to go sideways and suddenly deets from the check,
> everyone that might cares knows.  I suggested to them: we aren't /that
> / important. someone like Poodlesec, or lolPHPsec isn't going to find me
> interesting enough to bother. If or when they  turn a places electric
> security into the consistency of /dev/null or worse. We're so screwed by
> then anyway.
> > Short of that: what's been folks experience? are
> they reasonable secure?  Personally I'd think i'd be more likely to run
> into problems from fat fingering something. Than a check going poof, but
> that'd still suck.
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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