Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Jesse St.John]

hi, fwiw, years before i owned a powermac, i used slackware  
exclusively on a tyan tiger dual palomino board with 4 gigs of ram and  
had a firegl card that needed a molex connection for extra power to  
the gpu. now all of the finery of my memory is gone from this  
experience, but the quirks from this setup left an imprint.  pc's  
experience this phenomenon as well, and as i recall you should always  
plug the molex connector of any optical drives, soundcards, gpu's  
(anything using one)on different plugs than the hdd. something about  
how they dont play nice sticks out.  i had this issue as well until i  
had figured it out. you'll need to segregate the hard drive to its own  
power source, and no there is not route around this.  when the  
computer posts and boots is similar to a automobile, using more  
fuel(or in this case, electricity)upon start up than during normal  
operation.  the observation of the mdd needing a bit to cool to start  
with gpu is somewhat troubling. it seems as though your P/S is on its  
way out as well. just sayin.

On Dec 7, 2012, at 3:34 PM, frrob wrote:


Hello!

I have a MDD G4, 1.25 GHz DP, 10.5.8. Last night I installed a  
Radeon 9800 Pro 128M AGP (DVI) card, replacing the stock Radeon 9000  
68M (ADC). My main motivation for doing this was to have a 128M  
card, so as to run a larger monitor at full resolution. I didn't  
really look for the 9800 Pro, but I found it at a good price, and  
the info I found indicated that it would work in the MDD. One  
salient point if you're not familiar with the 9800 pro - apparently  
the AGP bus doesn't provide enough power for it, so it requires a  
secondary power connection from a molex connector, using a splitter  
from one of the hard drive power connectors.


In fact, the card does work, more or less. I get great display at  
1920 x 1080. But there are two problems. If I shut down the machine  
and then try to power it back on, one of two things happens: (1) it  
won't power on at all. I press the power button, and literally  
nothing happens. (2) It will power up and give me the boot chime,  
but then show in the center of the screen a small picture/icon of  
the Radeon card, with a little ATI logo in the corner, and in the  
upper right corner of the graphic a flashing red molex connector and  
its wires, signifying that it's not getting power from the molex. Of  
course, it was working and getting said power before I shut it down,  
so something changed on shutdown, it would seem.


The solution I have found to this problem is (if it powered on and  
gave me the flashing molex icon) is to manually power it down with  
the power button, and (if it didn't power up at all just do this)  
unplug the machine for 30 seconds to a minute, then plug it back in.  
Then it will start up normally.


Furthermore, if I try to restart, I invariably get the flashing  
molex graphic. I then have to manually shut down, unplug, replug,  
and power on.


The machine seems to sleep OK. I can put it to sleep and wake it,  
seemingly regardless of how long it has been asleep, with no problem.


When this first happened, I thought perhaps a cable or something was  
physically pressing the motherboard reset button (it is pretty  
cramped in there). But no, the button is clear.


I never had these problems with the stock Radeon 9000 ADC card.

So, what is going on? Something seems to be messing with the card's  
ability to get power. Is something interfering somehow with the  
machine's power management?


I'd like to use the 9800, but if I can't properly start up and  
restart, that's a pretty big PITA. Is the 9800 just too much card  
for the MDD?


Is there some solution to this problem that will allow me to use the  
9800? Or should I stick with the 9000 or another ADC card?


Thanks!

Rob J.


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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Mac User #330250]

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card
Date:Saturday, 08. December 2012
From:Jesse St.John jesselorenstj...@gmail.com
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
 […] you'll need to segregate the hard drive to its own
 power source, and no there is not route around this.
 […] it seems as though your P/S is on its
 way out as well. […]

I’ve immediately had the same thought.

My guess is that the power from the PSU—at this very molex connector—does not 
provide enough power for the HDD and the graphics card on start-up. The HDD 
requires a lot more power on spin-up compared to its running state, and the 
graphics card may as well draw more power on start-up than when running.

Try a different molex. I ususally use the one from the optical drive for the 
splitter. You may find an unused molex connector to use for the graphics card 
exclusively, or—if it is too short—use the splitter only to extend it.

The second thought is that maybe the PSU itself isn’t capable of providing 
enought power for all of the components. And: warmed-up components may draw 
more power.


Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Frank Dutra]

The second thought is that maybe the PSU itself isn't capable of providing
enought power for all of the components. And: warmed-up components may draw
more power.



FWIW I had the same problem when updating my Mystic to the flashed 
version of a 9800 pro card (taped pins). The general consensus found 
by browsing internet forums was that there just wasn't enough power 
in the OEM PSU (360 watt?) to handle everything (2 internal SATA, 2 
ATA drives, DVD drive, and 9800 card). This thought was reinforced by 
the fact that only one of the SATA drives would boot up, but work 
fine with the other disconnected, or with the original card 
re-installed.


As fate would have it my 10 year old OEM PSU failed shortly after 
installing the card,,, perhaps it was on it's way out anyway? Problem 
solved by replacing it with a 500 watt PC PSU, though I have had some 
intermittent sleep issues (crashes), presumably from the PC PSU not 
having a 28 volt standby voltage lead into the motherboard, which 
again presumably could be corrected by adding one independently or 
other hacks, which I haven't felt compelled to tackle.


Replacing the PSU with a PC version is not for the faint of heart as 
it involves rewiring 22 output leads to the corresponding correct 
voltage inputs on the motherboard, and possible mounting issues, and 
may not be feasible with other G4 models.



--
Frank Dutra

PO Box 3402
Nantucket MA  02584

mailto: fdut...@gmail.com

Voice: (508) 292-1528
FAX:   (815) 377-2407


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Re: imac g5 help needed asap

[JHPArizona]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 2:54:55 AM UTC-7, Tina Holm wrote:

 Den Torsdag, 6/12 2012, 02:05, Valter Prahlad skrev: 
  Il giorno 06/12/12 01:57, ti...@nehaia.dk javascript: ha scritto: 
  
  i had one behave exactly like this when I tried to boot it from a cd, 
  and 
  with no memory and harddrive installed 
  
  AFAIK, with no memory the Mac should beep one time 
  (see http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1547 ) 
  and do not chime (like the OP's Mac did). 
  
  BTW, did you think your Mac could boot without memory? :-) 
  

 he-he, no I didn't think so - I didn't know 

 I got it for free with the message that the power supply was dead and the 
 harddrive was pulled 

 so, after replacing the power supply, I obviously thought I could boot it 
 from a system dvd 

 sorry, I can't remember if there were beeps or chimes, but the fans came 
 on full speed and scared the s... out of me 

 /tina 


Check the Capacitors as suggested above. Once you get a display you work on 
getting an OS installed if you have a HDD installed.

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Wayne Stewart]

If it is a failing or marginal power supply you could try removing other 
cards and running the hard drives off an external power supply. Then if it 
does reboot when hot, you'll know it's your power supply. If it still 
doesn't then maybe there's something wrong with the video card.

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[frrob]

Thanks everyone, for all the feedback and suggestions. 

I will try taking the power off the optical drive connectors next, and see 
what happens. I have the molex for the 9800 running off the hard drive 
connector for the drive cage under the optical bay, where I have two SCSI 
drives (RAID). 

As far as power goes in general, I *do* have four drives. But I have one 
empty PCI slot. So I'm not sure if I'm maxing out power or not. 

Regarding heat as the issue, I'm not so sure. According to iStat, the 
processor temps hover around 49 degrees C. I've been checking it from time 
to time, sometimes after doing more processor-intensive tasks, and I've 
never seen a temp over 50 C. It seems to me that that's an acceptable temp 
for the processor. 

Thanks!

Rob J. 



On Saturday, December 8, 2012 1:18:20 PM UTC-5, Wayne Stewart wrote:

 If it is a failing or marginal power supply you could try removing other 
 cards and running the hard drives off an external power supply. Then if it 
 does reboot when hot, you'll know it's your power supply. If it still 
 doesn't then maybe there's something wrong with the video card.



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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Richard Gerome]

  From my knowledge on the PC cards you need to tape the #3 and #11 pin and the rom needs to flashed for it to work... I plug one in on an old G4 and it didn't boot up at all... Now I never heard or knew of a MAC 9800??? If that is what it is does this card have a fan on it? Maybe if it does it might not be spinning or the heat sink fins are packed with dust and dirt? This was the problem with my wife's PC and I ended up putting that 9800 card in her computer with a new fan and that problem simular to what you are having went away!!! I don't know if anyone else may have posted about this because I only read a few of the posts here???  -Original Message-
From: frrob 
Sent: Dec 7, 2012 4:34 PM
To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

Hello!I have a MDD G4, 1.25 GHz DP, 10.5.8. Last night I installed a Radeon 9800 Pro 128M AGP (DVI) card, replacing the stock Radeon 9000 68M (ADC). My main motivation for doing this was to have a 128M card, so as to run a larger monitor at full resolution. I didn't really look for the 9800 Pro, but I found it at a good price, and the info I found indicated that it would work in the MDD. One salient point if you're not familiar with the 9800 pro - apparently the AGP bus doesn't provide enough power for it, so it requires a secondary power connection from a molex connector, using a splitter from one of the hard drive power connectors.In fact, the card does work, more or less. I get great display at 1920 x 1080. But there are two problems. If I shut down the machine and then try to power it back on, one of two things happens: (1) it won't power on at all. I press the power button, and literally nothing happens. (2) It will power up and give me the boot chime, but then show in the center of the screen a small picture/icon of the Radeon card, with a little ATI logo in the corner, and in the upper right corner of the graphic a flashing red molex connector and its wires, signifying that it's not getting power from the molex. Of course, it was working and getting said power before I shut it down, so something changed on shutdown, it would seem. The "solution" I have found to this problem is (if it powered on and gave me the flashing molex icon) is to manually power it down with the power button, and (if it didn't power up at all just do this) unplug the machine for 30 seconds to a minute, then plug it back in. Then it will start up normally. Furthermore, if I try to restart, I invariably get the flashing molex graphic. I then have to manually shut down, unplug, replug, and power on. The machine seems to sleep OK. I can put it to sleep and wake it, seemingly regardless of how long it has been asleep, with no problem. When this first happened, I thought perhaps a cable or something was physically pressing the motherboard reset button (it is pretty cramped in there). But no, the button is clear. I never had these problems with the stock Radeon 9000 ADC card.So, what is going on? Something seems to be messing with the card's ability to get power. Is something interfering somehow with the machine's power management? I'd like to use the 9800, but if I can't properly start up and restart, that's a pretty big PITA. Is the 9800 just too much card for the MDD? Is there some solution to this problem that will allow me to use the 9800? Or should I stick with the 9000 or another ADC card? Thanks!Rob J.-- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs.The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtmlTo post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.comFor more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Mac User #330250]

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card
Date:Saturday, 08. December 2012
From:Wayne Stewart waynejstew...@gmail.com
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
 If it is a failing or marginal power supply you could try removing other
 cards and running the hard drives off an external power supply. Then if it
 does reboot when hot, you'll know it's your power supply. If it still
 doesn't then maybe there's something wrong with the video card.

You could also take the opportunity to replace your 4 IDE hard drives with 1 
SATA drive or even 1 SSD SATA drive. Both solutions will draw less power.

All you need is an IDE to SATA adapter, like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/HDE-SATA-Drive-Interface-Adapter/dp/B002Y2NI4M

or this one:

http://www.startech.com/HDD/Adapters/25in-and-35in-40-Pin-Male-IDE-to-SATA-
Adapter-Converter~IDE2SAT

You’ll propably find similar products on eBay or even at a local store nearby.

One HDD will definitely draw less power than 4 HDDs. And with modern SATA-II 
(3 GB/s) drives you can definitely use a green series that is designed be 
energy efficient, because the internal UltraATA/133 IDE bus is even slower than 
a slow SATA drive, so there won’t be a benefit from choosing a fast SATA drive 
anyway.

My recommendation:
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Intellipower-Desktop-
WD15EADS/dp/B0021L9HE6

Two things should be considered though:
1) PowerPCs use the APM partitioning scheme. Therefore the limit is 2 TB.
2) Modern SATA HDDs use 4096k sectors  (WD: “Advanced Format”). APM uses 512k.

Since Mac OS prior to 10.6.x isn’t aware of 4096k sectors, disks that use it 
will ultimately be formated wrongly and thus may suffer from a significant 
performace impact.
(AFAIK the metioned WD Caviar Green WD15EADS is still 512k.)
Weather 4096k sectors will actually reduce performance further than the 
already existing limit due to the speed of the IDE bus is far beyond my 
experience and knowledge.


BUT, before you try that, see if your MDD Power Mac runs stable with the 
Radoeon 9800 if you only use one HDD. If it does, this may be a convenient way 
to go.

Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Mac User #330250]

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card
Date:Saturday, 08. December 2012
From:Mac User #330250 macuser330...@gmx.net
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
 Modern SATA HDDs use 4096k sectors  (WD: “Advanced Format”). APM uses 512k.

It is of course
4096 bytes  i.e.  4k sectors
and
512 bytes sectors,

NOT 4096k/512k… such a nonsense…

Sorry,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[Mac User #330250]

--  Original message  --
Subject: Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card
Date:Saturday, 08. December 2012
From:frrob fr...@earthlink.net
To:  g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
 Regarding heat as the issue, I'm not so sure. According to iStat, the
 processor temps hover around 49 degrees C. I've been checking it from time
 to time, sometimes after doing more processor-intensive tasks, and I've
 never seen a temp over 50 C. It seems to me that that's an acceptable temp
 for the processor.

The processor temperature is okay. I have a 1.42 GHz MDD and its CPUs are 
around 65°C all the time and it is running stable.

However, the temperature may influence how much power a specific device draws 
from the PSU, and also how much power the PSU can provide. It may well be that 
a component requires less power when at room temperature. Once warmed up (at a 
higher than room temperature, which will very highly from component to 
component) it may require more… Talking about components such as PCI cards, 
and HDDs. You can also think at a very low level, like capacitors, inductors, 
ICs and such…

BTW, waking from sleep (suspend to RAM) initiates a different sequence of 
powering up, which is propably the reason why you don’t experience this 
problem then.


Cheers,
Andreas  aka  Mac User #330250

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Re: MDD G4 odd start/restart behavior - new video card

[peter]

I have one of these in my Gig Ethernet. Just be warned, it is sensitive to 
higher temps. Make sure you are cleaning out dust on a regular basis.  Once you 
get the power issue sorted, any future video issues, your first step should be 
to check airflow, and temps.

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