Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
An update: The hard drive noise that gave rise to this thread turned out to be the fan after all. (Took my own advice, though rather backwardly, and turned on the computer with no HDs connected.) The fan near the hard drives, not the power supply fan - I think. It can be easily replaced, looks like. I'm less sure about replacing the power supply fan myself, in the event that's what it is. Evidently, there were G4s (such as certain Sawtooths) infamous as Windtunnel G4s (source: Wikipedia) because of noisy fans. I didn't know. The question is, noisy how? My old Gig-E had a rather loud fan, but that was white noise, unobtrusive and easily blocked out. The new Sawtooth noise is a faintly metallic, slightly buzzing, wavering, constant hum. A colony of agitated bees in the computer. Not so loud, but very annoying. Worse still, after the computer's been on for an extended time, the noise gets worse, sounding very much to my ears exactly like a slipping and struggling hard drive! (Still no odd system behavior I can trace to a HD.) That new development, not noticed at first, prompted me to hurry to install the new HD after I'd had it for a couple days but was still in wait and see mode (and prepared as I could be in terms of backup) about the old HDs. No regrets about installing a new, larger HD, and if the old ones are still all right, so much the better. I've learned a lot (much of it here) and been inspired to think of certain upgrades to this old Mac as opposed to just holding on until I can afford a new one. I can only hope that the fan problem is *just* a fan problem, not evidence of more underlying it and not something that's going to cause new problems before I can replace the fan. I'll have to open the computer when the bad noise starts and check on it (and also, outside, feel for air flow from the power supply fan). So far it appears that the fan is functional, just noisy. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Jan 4, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: Evidently, there were G4s (such as certain Sawtooths) infamous as Windtunnel G4s (source: Wikipedia) because of noisy fans. I didn't know. The question is, noisy how? The 'Wind Tunnel' G4's were very early Mirror Drive Door models, and the fans were REALLY loud, Apple instituted a free power supply/fan replacement program along with a firmware update that tamed the noise. This did NOT apply to any other model. There were very few of these systems actually released to the public before the fix was initiated; and the publicity and Apples quick response (uncharacteristically quick) meant that an unmodified loud one is quite rare. (and getting rarer along with all the G4 models) -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Thanks, Kris. The THD-MW isn't the right card, it has a place for a 2.5 notebook HD which most people don't need, and it appears to not be bootable to boot. I noticed the notebook HD thing and had an oh well, so what reaction, but I'm glad I asked about the bootability thing. I would not have been happy to learn the hard way. If you're going to buy a PCI HD card, you might as well get an SATA card so that you can use larger/cheaper HDs. The 3rd link above is a cheap SATA card with free RAM perhaps. Thanks for the links. A SATA card has been suggested and seems advisable. We'll see. The sweet spot has moved on past the Sawtooth and all the G4 PowerMacs of less than 1 GHz. Yes. My options are limited and grow more so. By and by, I'll have to consider getting a newer old Mac just to stay in the old Mac game at all. At any rate, I need this Sawtooth to be the best old Mac it can be for at least 6 more months. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
I've been booting from these cards with no problem. Just specify startup disk in Preferences or startup with option key held down. I've never had problems with these cards - they are completely transparent. My choice of Sonnet brand has nothing to do with research into technical matters such as firmware. They were offered by a supplier I have been using for years - macsales.com (Otherworld Computing) - and I knew I would be able to return them if I had any problems. I've had two in operation on two G4s for at least 3 years. Do you know the model number of these cards, Dale? It was actually easier for me to find Sonnet SATA PCI cards in the course of my searches. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 28, 2010, at 9:06 PM, peterh...@cruzio.com wrote: I've looked at the Sonnet Tempo HD PCI card (part # THD-MW). A question: What does Bootability - Not supported mean? Not (gulp) what seems the most obvious, that you couldn't boot up from a drive connected to it, right? That wouldn't be good. Especially after I was so proud of myself for picking up on the fact that I'd need cables to go along with the card. Those ATA cards all model the attached devices as if they were SCSI. In most cases, at least in the cases where the controlling firmware was licensed from Firmkek, the actual originator of ATA add-on cards for Macs, the attached devices are bootable, just as SCSI drives are fully bootable. It could be that Sonnet wrote their own firmware, possibly to save the license fees from Firmtek, and equally possibly they took some shortcuts. Whatever the real reason, the Firmtek-licensed cards are bootable, and so also are the ACARD cards, which use their own firmware, but which is architecturally compatible with Firmtek's. Indeed, Firmtek made some boo-boos in its SCSI implementation, which ACARD duplicated in order to be compatible. You can initialize a drive on an ACARD card and subsequently transport it to a Firmtek-licensed card and it will be plug-and-play. Needless to say, I don't buy Sonnet's products because they tend to cut corners and produce products with incompatibilities or other obvious limitations. Many non-Mac drive controller cards can be used on a Mac but you can't boot from them. This is because the ROM on the board (if any) doesn't have code for a Mac. To be bootable the card needs a Mac compatible ROM. Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 29, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Clark Martin wrote: Many non-Mac drive controller cards can be used on a Mac but you can't boot from them. This is because the ROM on the board (if any) doesn't have code for a Mac. To be bootable the card needs a Mac compatible ROM. This is true, but . . . if any competent programmer would look into the source code for XPostFacto, the key innovation of XPostFacto was the ability to start the boot process on one bootable hardware device, and load some of the extensions that will enable another unbootable hardware device, and then hand-off the boot to this other normally unbootable device. In XPostFacto this is called the Helper Disk boot option, and it's extremely useful for making normally unbootable PCI cards such as PCI Firewire cards or PCI ATA cards bootable. This means that theoretically ANY unbootable card or device could be made bootable by a simple little program that does what XPostFacto does. I wish someone would get the XPostFacto source and write a new little universal application called something like Boot Helper that would do just this, and make all these cheap but unbootable PC-version cards bootable in all Macs. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 28, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: On Dec 26, 7:16 pm, Dale Hoffman dh...@margnat.com wrote: I have two Sawtooths which I equipped with Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI cards. They support drives larger than 128GB. No Voodoo. The cards extended the usefulness of these G4s. I've looked at the Sonnet Tempo HD PCI card (part # THD-MW). A question: What does Bootability - Not supported mean? Not (gulp) what seems the most obvious, that you couldn't boot up from a drive connected to it, right? That wouldn't be good. Especially after I was so proud of myself for picking up on the fact that I'd need cables to go along with the card. Sean I've been booting from these cards with no problem. Just specify startup disk in Preferences or startup with option key held down. I've never had problems with these cards - they are completely transparent. My choice of Sonnet brand has nothing to do with research into technical matters such as firmware. They were offered by a supplier I have been using for years - macsales.com (Otherworld Computing) - and I knew I would be able to return them if I had any problems. I've had two in operation on two G4s for at least 3 years. Dale -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Right on Al! As an ex-mechanic I learned that in order to find the source of a noise, you really need a stethoscope (water pump vs A/C compressor vs air pump, etc). I had a commercial one from Snap-On but even a hose with a metal probe (or a paper towel tube) will be of benefit. Something that transmits local noise is a BIG help! ;^) - Peter - Original Message - From: Al Poulin alfred.pou...@gmail.com To: G-Group g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 6:39:53 AM Subject: Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4 On Dec 26, 7:26 pm, Sean Carroll cedarwaxw...@att.net wrote: Open the PowerMac and stick your ear in there, to verify that the sounds are coming from the drives. I did and I have - I have just distrusted my ears (being a musician teaches you to, ironically). I am as satisfied as I can be that the noise is from the drives. It occurs to me a little belatedly that a test that would absolutely determine whether it was the hard drives would be to disconnect the power from them and start up. Unless that's a no-no for some reason. The only possible source of noise in this situation would be the fan, yes? An optical drive is silent unless it's reading something, no? I would try a stethoscope, or a low tech 11 inch cardboard core from your last roll of paper towels, or make yourself an ear trumpet from paper. Al Poulin -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 26, 7:16 pm, Dale Hoffman dh...@margnat.com wrote: I have two Sawtooths which I equipped with Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI cards. They support drives larger than 128GB. No Voodoo. The cards extended the usefulness of these G4s. I've looked at the Sonnet Tempo HD PCI card (part # THD-MW). A question: What does Bootability - Not supported mean? Not (gulp) what seems the most obvious, that you couldn't boot up from a drive connected to it, right? That wouldn't be good. Especially after I was so proud of myself for picking up on the fact that I'd need cables to go along with the card. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
I've looked at the Sonnet Tempo HD PCI card (part # THD-MW). A question: What does Bootability - Not supported mean? Not (gulp) what seems the most obvious, that you couldn't boot up from a drive connected to it, right? That wouldn't be good. Especially after I was so proud of myself for picking up on the fact that I'd need cables to go along with the card. Those ATA cards all model the attached devices as if they were SCSI. In most cases, at least in the cases where the controlling firmware was licensed from Firmkek, the actual originator of ATA add-on cards for Macs, the attached devices are bootable, just as SCSI drives are fully bootable. It could be that Sonnet wrote their own firmware, possibly to save the license fees from Firmtek, and equally possibly they took some shortcuts. Whatever the real reason, the Firmtek-licensed cards are bootable, and so also are the ACARD cards, which use their own firmware, but which is architecturally compatible with Firmtek's. Indeed, Firmtek made some boo-boos in its SCSI implementation, which ACARD duplicated in order to be compatible. You can initialize a drive on an ACARD card and subsequently transport it to a Firmtek-licensed card and it will be plug-and-play. Needless to say, I don't buy Sonnet's products because they tend to cut corners and produce products with incompatibilities or other obvious limitations. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 28, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: I've looked at the Sonnet Tempo HD PCI card (part # THD-MW). A question: What does Bootability - Not supported mean? Not (gulp) what seems the most obvious, that you couldn't boot up from a drive connected to it, right? That wouldn't be good. Especially after I was so proud of myself for picking up on the fact that I'd need cables to go along with the card. The THD-MW isn't the right card, it has a place for a 2.5 notebook HD which most people don't need, and it appears to not be bootable to boot. Here are some better cards: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=26068625490 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=400140875982 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=220715663063 If you're going to buy a PCI HD card, you might as well get an SATA card so that you can use larger/cheaper HDs. The 3rd link above is a cheap SATA card with free RAM perhaps. The sweet spot has moved on past the Sawtooth and all the G4 PowerMacs of less than 1 GHz. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Thanks, Jeff and Dan. Currently, the drive will not eject even if I hold the door open for it (and it's certainly not being a lady.) Also tried propping up the rear end with a nice thick book, no change. Looks like a new case would be around $60 + $30 shipping, plus a lot of disassembly. At this point I can't afford to replace it, so I may have to part it out. That's a shame since everything works, with the exception of the drive. It's also drawing too much power with a space heater and a quad intel on the same circuit - already blew a breaker once. I may have to build a cheap, efficient Hackintosh to replace it. Thanks, folks... Eric -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Sorry folks, replied to the wrong thread. My apologies... Eric On 27 Dec 2010 06:30, Eric Volker evol...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks, Jeff and Dan. Currently, the drive will not eject even if I hold the door open for it (and it's certainly not being a lady.) Also tried propping up the rear end with a nice thick book, no change. Looks like a new case would be around $60 + $30 shipping, plus a lot of disassembly. At this point I can't afford to replace it, so I may have to part it out. That's a shame since everything works, with the exception of the drive. It's also drawing too much power with a space heater and a quad intel on the same circuit - already blew a breaker once. I may have to build a cheap, efficient Hackintosh to replace it. Thanks, folks... Eric -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 26, 7:26 pm, Sean Carroll cedarwaxw...@att.net wrote: Open the PowerMac and stick your ear in there, to verify that the sounds are coming from the drives. I did and I have - I have just distrusted my ears (being a musician teaches you to, ironically). I am as satisfied as I can be that the noise is from the drives. It occurs to me a little belatedly that a test that would absolutely determine whether it was the hard drives would be to disconnect the power from them and start up. Unless that's a no-no for some reason. The only possible source of noise in this situation would be the fan, yes? An optical drive is silent unless it's reading something, no? I would try a stethoscope, or a low tech 11 inch cardboard core from your last roll of paper towels, or make yourself an ear trumpet from paper. Al Poulin -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Many G4 Macs can have the 48-bit LBA Property added persistently (that is, semi-permanently) to their PRAMs. Sure, once the PRAM is cleared, the property reverts to 24-bit mode. However, as long as the PRAM is NOT cleared, perhaps for many years, the property is available, and this means that ANY sized drive can be supported, even for booting. However, it is ALWAYS better to play safe and partition each drive into a partition which is 131,072 MB, with the remainder being partitioned as desired. The 131,072 MB partition may also be sub-partitioned, just so no sub-partition straddles the 131,072 MB line. Thanks. Interesting. Am I to understand, then, that it is advisable to do both of the above when attempting to install a HD larger than 128 GB in a Sawtooth Power Mac G4, and that the partitioning is necessary only IF you force recognition of the larger HD? Not that I would know how to add the 48-bit LBA Property (or anything) to the PRAM... Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Without a patch you can format / access up to 128Gb of it. Disk Utility will show it as only 128Gb in size and format it accordingly. I have used a couple of 160 Gb drives on G4s formatted to 128Gb. They work just fine, you just have 32Gb that is unusable. Ah, that clears that up. Thanks, Clark. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
I have two Sawtooths which I equipped with Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI cards. They support drives larger than 128GB. No Voodoo. The cards extended the usefulness of these G4s. Thanks, Dale. Good info. Maybe I won't have to send the HD I ordered back. I might anyway, but it's good to know that I don't HAVE to, that there's yet another option. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
I would try a stethoscope, or a low tech 11 inch cardboard core from your last roll of paper towels, or make yourself an ear trumpet from paper. Thanks, Al. Next time I have any suspicions, I think I'll go the disconnect power cables route first. I should have thought of that before I bothered anyone with the noise question. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Thanks, Dan. Before I even realized there'd been a response to my post (Wayne Stewart's) (I viewed it at Google Groups first, having not seen it in my email at that point), I ordered a Seagate 7200.10 Barracuda 160 MB Ultra ATA/100 HD. (The 40 GB drives I'm afraid are failing are also Seagate Barracudas, Ultra ATA/100, 7200 RPM.) I could send it back, if I have to, though I suspect I won't have to. First, go everymac.com and *positively* identify exactly which Power Mac you gots. Then check its HD bus specs to see if it supports the bigger drives. There are hacks available to support those larger drives, but IMO they're just a PITA - at that point it's better to get a PCI card to make a new bus (SATA). Went to everymac.com - this new old computer of mine is the Sawtooth, the model M7825LL/B. (System Profiler shows the graphics card as ATY[Rage128Pro] for some reason, though.) So... does not natively supported (128 GB+ hard drives) mean won't work at all without mystery voodoo or maybe even with it? Here's something from the Seagate 7200.10 Barracuda description notes: This hard drive operates at SATA 1.5Gb/s by default, you must change the jumper settings for the hard drive to operate at SATA 3.0Gb/s. Before doing so please make sure your motherboard can support SATA 3.0Gb/s. I saw that to begin with. Aside from the question of whether all 160 GB would be recognized, I reasoned that the new Seagate is supposed to be an Ultra ATA/100 HD, like my existing HDs, so it oughta work somehow. OK, I'm over my head again. IF I don't decide to return the new HD and opt for external as the stopgap (I DO intend to keep this old Power Mac G4 even after my probable move to a new Mac mini, and I'd only give it up willingly in a swap for some other old Mac), I'll probably have some follow-up questions on the PCI card and making a new SATA bus. No, make that definitely have some questions. As simple as it might be, I'll find something in it to confuse me, left on my own. Aside - never a good idea to use an internal drive as a backup. The point of a backup is to make sure your data *survives* a catastrophe. An internal drive is 1) always electrically connected to the computer and 2) always accessable - corruptable. Good advice, as Clark also mentioned. The 2-HD idea was originally for the purpose of keeping OS 9.2.2 around when I moved to (my first) Mac OS X, 10.3 Panther. When OS 9 fell into disuse, at some point I hit upon the idea of using the spare as an entire HD backup, which seemed ingenious to me at the time. The smart thing to do in that case would be to keep the HD anywhere but in the same computer, of course. Not as smart as an external HD, but that always seemed so extravagant to me, as I was never anywhere close to using up the 40 GB I had until recently. Open the PowerMac and stick your ear in there, to verify that the sounds are coming from the drives. I did and I have - I have just distrusted my ears (being a musician teaches you to, ironically). I am as satisfied as I can be that the noise is from the drives. It occurs to me a little belatedly that a test that would absolutely determine whether it was the hard drives would be to disconnect the power from them and start up. Unless that's a no-no for some reason. The only possible source of noise in this situation would be the fan, yes? An optical drive is silent unless it's reading something, no? Venues like LEM Swap, sites like Other World Computing (macsales.com), Meritline, etc, all have good deals on drives these days. Office Despot has some good sales this week also! In general, a good target is 10 to 30c per GB. I got the HD I mentioned above for $44. Ok. Back-up. Punt - the work of replacing that internal HDs isn't necessary at this point. Forget all of the above. Just get an *external* firewire hard drive. Plug it in. Use Disk Utility to set it up. Use CarbonCopyCloner to clone (backup) the stuff from your internal drives into it. Then BOOT on it. From that point on, use that external drive! Use the internals as scratch space or something. NOW you tell me. Where were you 4 days ago? (I'm kidding.) When the idea that I might be hearing a failing HD first confronted me, a easy way out that flashed before me was putting my system on an external HD. It might be an outdated notion or one that was never true to begin with, but I thought booting from an external HD would make everything noticeably and maybe intolerably slower, even the relatively basic stuff I'm doing with the computer now (I'm such an under-utilizer). Not true? What about this here computer having a FireWire 400 bus? Would that need/ought to be remedied? Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
So... does not natively supported (128 GB+ hard drives) mean won't work at all without mystery voodoo or maybe even with it? Many G4 Macs can have the 48-bit LBA Property added persistently (that is, semi-permanently) to their PRAMs. Sure, once the PRAM is cleared, the property reverts to 24-bit mode. However, as long as the PRAM is NOT cleared, perhaps for many years, the property is available, and this means that ANY sized drive can be supported, even for booting. However, it is ALWAYS better to play safe and partition each drive into a partition which is 131,072 MB, with the remainder being partitioned as desired. The 131,072 MB partition may also be sub-partitioned, just so no sub-partition straddles the 131,072 MB line. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Thank you, Clark. They can work with drives larger than 128Gb but only up to a size of 128Gb (without patches). So a 160 GB hard drive compatible in other respects would at least work (and be seen as a 128 GB HD) in a Sawtooth Power Mac G4? Or get a (somewhat) newer PowerMac that does support the larger drives (2002 QuickSilver, MDD or a G5). Circumstances dictate that any serious money I spend now (or I should say 6 months or so from now) be spent on a new Mac for the sake of getting with the Intel program at last. I wish I could afford an array of older Macs - heck, I wish I still had the 7100 I started out using (sorry, can't remember the prefix - Power Macintosh?) - but for me to move to a newer old Power Mac would have to involve trade somehow, and it's hard to arrange trading what you've got when it's all you have and you need it every day. And it's [an internal HD as a backup drive] always physically with the computer which means if the computer is stolen or crushed by a tree the drive gets the same treatment. True. My backup plan wasn't very well thought out. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 22, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: About time I discovered Low End Mac and this group, after 10+ years of owning a G4. My question: What are my limitations in terms of selecting a new hard drive that I can install without any additional upgrades/replacement as far as ATA, Ultra ATA/100, SATA and all that (giving myself away here) goes? Sean, I have two Sawtooths which I equipped with Sonnet Tempo ATA 133 PCI cards. They support drives larger than 128GB. No Voodoo. The cards extended the usefulness of these G4s. Dale Hoffman Louisville, KY -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
At 6:26 PM -0600 12/26/2010, Sean Carroll wrote: Before I even realized there'd been a response to my post (Wayne Stewart's) (I viewed it at Google Groups first, having not seen it in my email at that point), I ordered a Seagate 7200.10 Barracuda 160 MB Ultra ATA/100 HD. But later in your reply you talk about SATA settings - that's contrary to it being ATA. (see below) First, go everymac.com and *positively* identify exactly which Power Mac you gots. Then check its HD bus specs to see if it supports the bigger drives. There are hacks available to support those larger drives, but IMO they're just a PITA - at that point it's better to get a PCI card to make a new bus (SATA). Went to everymac.com - this new old computer of mine is the Sawtooth, the model M7825LL/B. (System Profiler shows the graphics card as ATY[Rage128Pro] for some reason, though.) http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/stats/powermac_g4_450.html So... does not natively supported (128 GB+ hard drives) mean won't work at all without mystery voodoo or maybe even with it? Correct - as is, on that bus, the system will only see the first 128 GB of the drive. You'd have to install the hacks to make it support the larger drives to see the whole thing. Here's something from the Seagate 7200.10 Barracuda description notes: This hard drive operates at SATA 1.5Gb/s by default, you must change the jumper settings for the hard drive to operate at SATA 3.0Gb/s. Before doing so please make sure your motherboard can support SATA 3.0Gb/s. *Exactly* which model Seagate drive did you buy? SATA (Serial ATA) is NOT the same as PATA (Parallel ATA), aka ATA or IDE. You CANNOT connect a SATA drive to your Mac's built-in IDE (PATA) buses. I saw that to begin with. Aside from the question of whether all 160 GB would be recognized, I reasoned that the new Seagate is supposed to be an Ultra ATA/100 HD, like my existing HDs, so it oughta work somehow. Double check that you're getting the ATA version, NOT the SATA version. Look *carefully* at the model number. ST3160215A is the ATA version. ST3160215AS is the SATA version. http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_barracuda_7200_10.pdf Open the PowerMac and stick your ear in there, to verify that the sounds are coming from the drives. I did and I have - I have just distrusted my ears (being a musician teaches you to, ironically). I am as satisfied as I can be that the noise is from the drives. It occurs to me a little belatedly that a test that would absolutely determine whether it was the hard drives would be to disconnect the power from them and start up. Unless that's a no-no for some reason. That's fine. We do that all the time to quickly disable one bit of hardware or another, to reduce variables in the problem etc. The only possible source of noise in this situation would be the fan, yes? An optical drive is silent unless it's reading something, no? Correct*2. Ok. Back-up. Punt - the work of replacing that internal HDs isn't necessary at this point. Forget all of the above. Just get an *external* firewire hard drive. Plug it in. Use Disk Utility to set it up. Use CarbonCopyCloner to clone (backup) the stuff from your internal drives into it. Then BOOT on it. From that point on, use that external drive! Use the internals as scratch space or something. NOW you tell me. Where were you 4 days ago? (I'm kidding.) When the idea that I might be hearing a failing HD first confronted me, a easy way out that flashed before me was putting my system on an external HD. It might be an outdated notion or one that was never true to begin with, but I thought booting from an external HD would make everything noticeably and maybe intolerably slower, even the relatively basic stuff I'm doing with the computer now (I'm such an under-utilizer). Not true? What about this here computer having a FireWire 400 bus? Would that need/ought to be remedied? The Mac's ATA/66 bus maxes out at 66.7 MB/sec, actual throughput is around 80% of that. That's faster than Firewire's 400 Mbps. But... most drives only do half that anyway. Add to that the fact that your Mac is only 450 MHz, in practice booting on a firewire drive shouldn't feel slow at all, IMO. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 26, 2010, at 4:26 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: Open the PowerMac and stick your ear in there, to verify that the sounds are coming from the drives. I did and I have - I have just distrusted my ears (being a musician teaches you to, ironically). I am as satisfied as I can be that the noise is from the drives. It occurs to me a little belatedly that a test that would absolutely determine whether it was the hard drives would be to disconnect the power from them and start up. Unless that's a no-no for some reason. The only possible source of noise in this situation would be the fan, yes? An optical drive is silent unless it's reading something, no? In addition to listening, try using your finger. If you place your finger on the drive you can often feel some of the sounds and your finger is much better at localizing the source. Plus it's a lot easier getting your finger in to touch the drive than your ear. Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
(System Profiler shows the graphics card as ATY[Rage128Pro] for some reason, though.) As an aside on an aside, I should clarify that this comment of mine was wonderment that my own system (by way of the app System Profiler) is misspelling what should be ATI. Unless there really such a thing as an ATY Rage128Pro card, perhaps a cheap and ancient Soviet knock- off of the ATI graphics card, miraculously predating the probable existence of ATI cards to begin with. I shouldn't joke. Maybe ATY exists and is well known, what do I know. So... does not natively supported (128 GB+ hard drives) mean won't work at all without mystery voodoo or maybe even with it? Correct - as is, on that bus, the system will only see the first 128 GB of the drive. You'd have to install the hacks to make it support the larger drives to see the whole thing. But not seeing the whole thing doesn't mean that my Power Mac G4 will refuse to have anything to do with it, right? Here's something from the Seagate 7200.10 Barracuda description notes: This hard drive operates at SATA 1.5Gb/s by default, you must change the jumper settings for the hard drive to operate at SATA 3.0Gb/s. Before doing so please make sure your motherboard can support SATA 3.0Gb/s. This must be a case of the notes containing information for both versions, because... Double check that you're getting the ATA version, NOT the SATA version. Look *carefully* at the model number. ST3160215A is the ATA version. ST3160215AS is the SATA version. ... ST3160215A is the model number of the hard drive I ordered. The Mac's ATA/66 bus maxes out at 66.7 MB/sec, actual throughput is around 80% of that. That's faster than Firewire's 400 Mbps. But... most drives only do half that anyway. Add to that the fact that your Mac is only 450 MHz, in practice booting on a firewire drive shouldn't feel slow at all, IMO. So it's a choice between an external HD with no complications and an internal one with some complications. The possible advantage the former offers is obvious. The possible advantage of the latter - it seems to me - would be that I end up with (through the PCI card and SATA) with a better Power Mac G4 which becomes itself an external FireWire HD once I have a brand-new Mac, besides being useful for the older operating systems it could run. Practically, I like simple and relatively cheap better. But this older Mac isn't a throwaway to me, and beginning to learn something about tinkering with it, besides straightforward changing of the hard drives, wouldn't hurt. The only time pressure on deciding is how long the hard drives in it now are going to last. The first hard drive failure, of the originally installed one just inside of 2 years, came with no warning whatsoever. So the noise I'm hearing now probably doesn't tell me anything more than soon. I suppose that's warning enough. Most of the vital stuff is already backed up. Time to finish the job. Thanks, Dan. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 26, 2010, at 6:39 PM, Sean Carroll wrote: (System Profiler shows the graphics card as ATY[Rage128Pro] for some reason, though.) As an aside on an aside, I should clarify that this comment of mine was wonderment that my own system (by way of the app System Profiler) is misspelling what should be ATI. Unless there really such a thing as an ATY Rage128Pro card, perhaps a cheap and ancient Soviet knock-off of the ATI graphics card, miraculously predating the probable existence of ATI cards to begin with. I shouldn't joke. Maybe ATY exists and is well known, what do I know. ATY is how the card reports itself. It is from ATI. Nothing to worry about. So... does not natively supported (128 GB+ hard drives) mean won't work at all without mystery voodoo or maybe even with it? Correct - as is, on that bus, the system will only see the first 128 GB of the drive. You'd have to install the hacks to make it support the larger drives to see the whole thing. But not seeing the whole thing doesn't mean that my Power Mac G4 will refuse to have anything to do with it, right? Without a patch you can format / access up to 128Gb of it. Disk Utility will show it as only 128Gb in size and format it accordingly. I have used a couple of 160 Gb drives on G4s formatted to 128Gb. They work just fine, you just have 32Gb that is unusable. Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
At 8:39 PM -0600 12/26/2010, Sean Carroll wrote: The first hard drive failure, of the originally installed one just inside of 2 years, came with no warning whatsoever. So the noise I'm hearing now probably doesn't tell me anything more than soon. I suppose that's warning enough. Most of the vital stuff is already backed up. Time to finish the job. yea. It's a bit Shakespearean, really. Sometimes they take a stab to the gut and die quick, and sometimes they blither on forever announcing I die! repeatedly. Just keep good backups. Then you won't be upset when the drive finally bricks out. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
Thanks, Wayne. see if it's really the hard drives that are making the noise and not a fan or optical drive. Indeed, that's part of my problem. As near as I can tell, having listened and doubted and listened again many times, the noise is from the hard drives. And noise is really the only problem as yet - no weirdness with the system. (Unfortunately, I have nothing like the old Apple Hardware Test I got with OS 9, assuming that its diagnostic capability was beyond that of Disk Utility.) I disconnected power from the one acting as the main drive. No change. I disconnected and removed both drives and reinstalled them to my satisfaction. No change. I saw that the repair shop had jumpered both drives to Cable Select, whereas I had set them to Master and Slave all those years ago. I considered changing it back, but since the system was registering them as 0 and 1 just fine as it was, I let it be. The repair shop had connected the drives to different power cables. I put them on the same one (as they had been before) to see if this would tell me anything (it didn't). I disconnected the ancient and unused Zip Drive just to remove it from the equation in case it was even there. There are probably even more variables - cables? power supply? - but since a new and larger-capacity hard drive won't be wasted in any case, I've ordered one, having figured out the compatibility question. It's a 160 GB Seagate. I recall reading something to the effect that my system might not recognize more than 128 GB on it, but that's not a problem or a bridge I can't cross later. As far as I can tell. Oh, I did notice an oddity that might not be new except in the noticing. I used to see S.M.A.R.T. status in System Profiler. Didn't know what it meant, but it seemed reassuring to see Verified there. Since I'm using Disk Utility (booting from the install disc and restoring one hard drive to the other) more often now, and with (possible) hard drive problems on my mind, I happened to notice that Disk Utility says the S.M.A.R.T. status is Not supported. Since I know what S.M.A.R.T. stands for now, I gather that my hard drives are in fact not capable of warning me that they're dying. At least not politely. One good option would be to get an external firewire hard drive to back everything up on. (On a G4 a USB hard drive is very very slow, even if you have a USB 2.0 card) Yes, an external FireWire drive is smart policy in any case. Living on a shoestring and until recently having lived comfortably with 40 GB has made that one of those I'll get around to it things. For now, I copy one hard drive to the other more frequently, banking on the unlikelihood of both failing simultaneously. I have a lot of irreplaceable stuff backed up elsewhere already. Another option is to pick up a SATA card and add a SATA drive to your machine. I did that to my G4 when it was my main machine. It was noticeably faster than my original drive and I never regretted for an instance. Such possibilities have dawned on me as I've researched and reeducated myself lately. Please clue me in on the specifics of how you did this (drive itself is simple enough, but the cables and cards and such are where I need the help), bearing in mind that my technical prowess is slight and my technical intuition naught, and that I'm likely to ask um, what is that? and um, where does that go? frequently. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
At 2:38 PM -0800 12/22/10, Sean Carroll wrote: What are my limitations in terms of selecting a new hard drive that I can install without any additional upgrades/replacement as far as ATA, Ultra ATA/100, SATA and all that (giving myself away here) goes? Any 3.5 IDE/ATA drive will plug into the existing internal IDE bus. Some of the built-in buses will not address drives larger than 128 GB, however (see below). Select a standard 3.5 LP (low profile) or HH (half height) drive. Most you'll find are LPs these days. 5400rpm is a bit slow. 7200rpm is the norm. 1 and 15000rpm is available but expensive. My personal preferences are for Seagate or Hitachi. Stay away from Western Digital (WD). work with my Power Mac G4 Sawtooth (I think - see below) 450 mHz single- processor, please do. Capacity (120 GB or so would be nice) is less of an issue than hassle-free compatibility. If it matters, I'm running Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.11. Background: In 2000, I (we - I was married then) purchased a new Gigabyte Ethernet Power Mac G4. First, go everymac.com and *positively* identify exactly which Power Mac you gots. Then check its HD bus specs to see if it supports the bigger drives. There are hacks available to support those larger drives, but IMO they're just a PITA - at that point it's better to get a PCI card to make a new bus (SATA). Sawtooth 350 to 500-MHz G4, AGP 2x Gigabit Ethernet 400 to 500-MHz G4, AGP 2x Sawtooth + gigE and ADC. [hardware problem resolutions] So now I have a new old machine that seems to be in excellent condition, but also a new problem - alarming noises from both of the hard drives (I've been using one to entirely back up the other and rotating them). Aside - never a good idea to use an internal drive as a backup. The point of a backup is to make sure your data *survives* a catastrophe. An internal drive is 1) always electrically connected to the computer and 2) always accessable - corruptable. The noise is like that of a car engine idling irregularly. The whirring varies in frequency and sometimes sounds very labored. No clicks or grinding. The hard drives are both 6 years old Open the PowerMac and stick your ear in there, to verify that the sounds are coming from the drives. Venues like LEM Swap, sites like Other World Computing (macsales.com), Meritline, etc, all have good deals on drives these days. Office Despot has some good sales this week also! In general, a good target is 10 to 30c per GB. I want this G4 to last for (at least) the 6 months it's going to be before I can afford a new Mac Ok. Back-up. Punt - the work of replacing that internal HDs isn't necessary at this point. Forget all of the above. Just get an *external* firewire hard drive. Plug it in. Use Disk Utility to set it up. Use CarbonCopyCloner to clone (backup) the stuff from your internal drives into it. Then BOOT on it. From that point on, use that external drive! Use the internals as scratch space or something. HTH, - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 25, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Paxton wrote: I am having trouble finding an external HD and case in my budget. ($40 total). Any idea where to look? http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=909114-01-Rcat=HDD -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
At 12:06 PM -0800 12/25/10, Paxton wrote: Ok. Back-up. Punt - the work of replacing that internal HDs isn't necessary at this point. Forget all of the above. Just get an *external* firewire hard drive. Plug it in. Use Disk Utility to set it up. Use CarbonCopyCloner to clone (backup) the stuff from your internal drives into it. Then BOOT on it. From that point on, use that external drive! Use the internals as scratch space or something. I am having trouble finding an external HD and case in my budget. ($40 total). Any idea where to look? I was able to get a160 gig Sata drive for under $20 but even used external cases cost more than that. LEM Swap, eBay, Geeks, Meritline, Cyberguys, Craigslist, Office Despot... I've often bought used firewire boxes, tossed the old/small HD, and put a new one in. Don't skimp on the case. You want something with a decent quality power supply and a modern full speed firewire chip... I keep an eye on the LEM swap list, but again, I am just not quick enough. (I get it on digest.) heh. Digests. Like that useless trash compactor in the kitchen... It takes n kilobytes of data and creates n kilobytes of data, that's so old it stinks by the time you move it. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
On Dec 25, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Dan wrote: At 2:38 PM -0800 12/22/10, Sean Carroll wrote: What are my limitations in terms of selecting a new hard drive that I can install without any additional upgrades/replacement as far as ATA, Ultra ATA/100, SATA and all that (giving myself away here) goes? Any 3.5 IDE/ATA drive will plug into the existing internal IDE bus. Some of the built-in buses will not address drives larger than 128 GB, however (see below). They can work with drives larger than 128Gb but only up to a size of 128Gb (without patches). Select a standard 3.5 LP (low profile) or HH (half height) drive. Most you'll find are LPs these days. Half height drives are long gone, the standard 3.5 drive is 1/3rd height, or 1. 5400rpm is a bit slow. 7200rpm is the norm. 1 and 15000rpm is available but expensive. First, go everymac.com and *positively* identify exactly which Power Mac you gots. Then check its HD bus specs to see if it supports the bigger drives. There are hacks available to support those larger drives, but IMO they're just a PITA - at that point it's better to get a PCI card to make a new bus (SATA). Or get a (somewhat) newer PowerMac that does support the larger drives (2002 QuickSilver, MDD or a G5). Aside - never a good idea to use an internal drive as a backup. The point of a backup is to make sure your data *survives* a catastrophe. An internal drive is 1) always electrically connected to the computer and 2) always accessable - corruptable. And it's always physically with the computer which means if the computer is stolen or crushed by a tree the drive gets the same treatment. At the school where I worked, one day I had just finished the backup of the server then dismounted and disconnected the drive when a short time later we had a bit of a catastrophe which wiped the server. If the backup had been connected it would have been wiped too. Clark Martin Redwood City, CA, USA Macintosh / Internet Consulting I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
First thing I'd do is open the computers door and see if it's really the hard drives that are making the noise and not a fan or optical drive. If it is indeed the hard drive then what your options are depends a little on finances. One good option would be to get an external firewire hard drive to back everything up on. (On a G4 a USB hard drive is very very slow, even if you have a USB 2.0 card) Someplace like OWC can sell you a replacement hard drive. I too have hade good luck with Seagates but I know people that swear by other brands. Another option is to pick up a SATA card and add a SATA drive to your machine. I did that to my G4 when it was my main machine. It was noticeably faster than my original drive and I never regretted for an instance. Wayne -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
New internal hard drive for Power Mac G4
About time I discovered Low End Mac and this group, after 10+ years of owning a G4. My question: What are my limitations in terms of selecting a new hard drive that I can install without any additional upgrades/replacement as far as ATA, Ultra ATA/100, SATA and all that (giving myself away here) goes? I have had good experience with Seagate - if you can specifically recommend one of their models that would work with my Power Mac G4 Sawtooth (I think - see below) 450 mHz single- processor, please do. Capacity (120 GB or so would be nice) is less of an issue than hassle-free compatibility. If it matters, I'm running Mac OS X Tiger 10.4.11. Background: In 2000, I (we - I was married then) purchased a new Gigabyte Ethernet Power Mac G4. Until December 1 of this year, the only problems I ever had were a hard drive failure and the apparent death of the installed Zip Drive. Then, the internal power supply died without warning. I brought it to an authorized service provider, intending to have them repair or replace the power supply. Before they attempted this, they called to tell me they had a similar machine they could swap my hard drives (2) and RAM into. Waiting to have the power supply issue addressed - IF it could be addressed - would have meant waiting another 2 weeks or more. Time was of the essence. I hated to give up my original G4 - surely a bad deal if I was a trader or collector - but I needed a home computer back up in less than 2 weeks or a month or whatever the power supply issue required (and no, I wasn't interested in tackling that replacement myself - just not a good time for such a project.) So now I have a new old machine that seems to be in excellent condition, but also a new problem - alarming noises from both of the hard drives (I've been using one to entirely back up the other and rotating them). The noise is like that of a car engine idling irregularly. The whirring varies in frequency and sometimes sounds very labored. No clicks or grinding. The hard drives are both 6 years old, which makes me think I should suspect the health of the hard drives ahead of suspecting the repair shop of improper installation or of swapping my drives/RAM into a lemon. Straighten me out if I'm overlooking anything, which is likely. More background: I want this G4 to last for (at least) the 6 months it's going to be before I can afford a new Mac, at which point I plan for it to go into semi-retirement as an external storage device and guinea pig for tinkering (if you were I and had my technical skills, you'd save the tinkering for a secondary computer). All suggestions and comments are welcome, but particularly those pertaining to the original question, as I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to find a simple compatibility answer online. I haven't kept up with the world of hard drives since installing my current ones 6 years ago. Thanks. Sean -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
