Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On 13/1/09 05:29, aussieshepsrock ilovaussiesh...@yahoo.com wrote: The optical resolution of your scanner - say 600x600ppi for this purpose - is the limit for original capture - higher resolutions like 9600x9600ppi can only be provided by interpolation ... Your input is greatly appreciated, but I'm fully up on the Optical vs Interpolated with Scanners. snip done selectively per image in Pshop if you have it as ramping the edges to provide a sharper image can produce artifacts. You are quite right about the Unsharp Masking in Photoshop being an incredibly better tool than the ones in scanning software itself. However,.. snip All I'm pointing out about unsharp masking is the most important part of image capture via any device - originals vary enormously and some will benefit more than others from varying amounts of sharpening. Judging your originals used to be the byword of prepress scanning but that's my background - when drum scanners were the size of an estate car. Levels is a destructive process which affects the entire image - if you move the black point or white point by 10% you are not only disposing of 25 channel levels from each colour - you are creating 25 new ones for each colour as each channel must have 256 levels. I use the non destructive curves if at all possible and reserve level adjustment for very poor low key originals. I only have personal experience to draw upon because authoritative information about this has been difficult to find, but I have doubts as to your statement's.. snip Any adjustment of the levels is destructive - as is the brightness and contrast settings. Even if there is no data in the levels you are clipping the image editor must generate new levels to compensate for those lost as there must be 256. In generating new levels there is inevitably error as they must be whole numbers between 0 and 255 - the algorithm used generates new levels with partial values which are rounded up or down or the error carried over. An adjustment layer for levels could be used non destructively but the file size would reflect this. http://www.developertutorials.com/tutorials/photoshop/5-tips-for-photoshop -efficiency-8-03-26/page4.html Highest resolution? I would say around the 200/300ppi mark unless they are earmarked for substantial enlargement. The human eye can only resolve around 180 levels, b/w newspapers print photos at around 80 lines of dots per inch (the cheap paper limits the res) and we see them well as images. Glossy colour mags 133/150/175 lines of dots per inch and they look very acceptable even though the CMYK space is smaller than RGB. Computer monitors are limited by dot pitch and can only manage hardware res around 90ppi so any res above this is a software representation - tv's are worse with poorer dot pitch. This information is extremely valid, but I have a sense my thoughts on resolution and your's aren't entirely describing the same things. The Myth of DPI is worth a read... http://www.rideau-info.com/photos/mythdpi.html My archive of high res images is stored at 360ppi, medium res at 180ppi I think there is also the disconnect between the 'historical image archive' I'm contemplating and the 'working' image archive you seem to be describing because the ppi's are based upon the capabilities of your output source. I'm most concerned with archiving the maximum image capability of my source materials. The connection my project has to output methodologies is indirect at best. It will be a resource of source materials that on screen viewing, printing, or publishing, can then be derived from. The ppi's are corrected higher for output source - normally they would be 300ppi and 150ppi but many of these are A4 borderless so storage space is a vast issue - the 360's would be 400MB each at 1200ppi. Output of images is everything - without it we cannot see them - monitors, all printers and all publishing is output. Finally I would add the fact that re-resing is always possible with a good image editor - a 200/300ppi digital image can be easily upped to 1200ppi without problems. The image editor is simply doing what the scanner does over and above it's optical resolution - interpolation - but probably doing it much better in the case of Pshop. Accurate info, but not directly applicable to my methods and goals. Yes, photoshop is the best image upscaler around and is quite usable when wielded judiciously. I have most assuredly used it, especially when making 8x10's from 4x6 originals I need bigger prints off of. However, If I scan an image at 1200dpi and someone in the background turns out to be important to someone years down the road, there will be lots of pixels to fish out the best image that's possible. If I scanned it at 300dpi, there is no way to interpolate the missing 900dpi of information, the result would just be a really
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On 8/1/09 22:29, aussieshepsrock ilovaussiesh...@yahoo.com wrote: HiYa Pete and Everyone, My intended Scanning Methodology - Seperate from my Media Storage Options - is something like this. I've only done a 50 image or so 'test' run to sort out file size and physical process considerations at this point. Some of this is based on some comparative tests of various 'scanner driver' options. TIFF with internal compression OFF Photograph Fronts: 600 DPI Resolution 24 BIT Color Depth Digital ICE OFF - It's mucking much more than it's fixing. Unsharp Mask (in scanner software) at the High Setting because it appears to be a well behaved and subtle implementation in my testing up to this point. Photograph Backs: 300 DPI Resolution 8 Bit Grey Scale Unsharp Mask set to High All images receive Levels Adjustments Set Manually. The sliders for each color channel are tweaked individually so the sliders are just past the Highest and Lowest Point on the Histogram Display for Each Channel - ie the darkest/dimmest value is changed from zero to 9 if the scans histogram shows no info below 10. I am cautious about overpowering a particular channels level adjustments and making an image look 'wierd'. I believe this is called manually clipping the highlights and shadows. I can find very little 'standards or good practices' info via google or yahoo searches. This is just how I've learned to go about getting good scan results since my first encounter with a grayscale only flatbed back in the early nineties! Well you seem to have quite a job on so here's a few tips. The optical resolution of your scanner - say 600x600ppi for this purpose - is the limit for original capture - higher resolutions like 9600x9600ppi can only be provided by interpolation (guesswork from maths) and do not contain more detail from the original. So the lowest optical res of your scanner should give you your basic max scanning res - a 1200x600ppi scanner would be 600ppi - over and above this res you are only adding original data in one direction in the other direction the scanner is calculating the data - above 1200ppi it is calculqting the data in both directions. Unsharp masking is better done selectively per image in Pshop if you have it as ramping the edges to provide a sharper image can produce artifacts. Levels is a destructive process which affects the entire image - if you move the black point or white point by 10% you are not only disposing of 25 channel levels from each colour - you are creating 25 new ones for each colour as each channel must have 256 levels. I use the non destructive curves if at all possible and reserve level adjustment for very poor low key originals. Highest resolution? I would say around the 200/300ppi mark unless they are earmarked for substantial enlargement. The human eye can only resolve around 180 levels, b/w newspapers print photos at around 80 lines of dots per inch (the cheap paper limits the res) and we see them well as images. Glossy colour mags 133/150/175 lines of dots per inch and they look very acceptable even though the CMYK space is smaller than RGB. Computer monitors are limited by dot pitch and can only manage hardware res around 90ppi so any res above this is a software representation - tv's are worse with poorer dot pitch. My archive of high res images is stored at 360ppi, medium res at 180ppi - the odd numbers are due to my printer being an Epson inkjet which has a printing resolution divisible in both directions by 180 (5760 x 1440dpi) and the print results are much better and faster than if I ask it a difficult resolution recalculation - which it doesn't seem to be very good at - indeed the prorietary print driver's ability to convert well from RGB to six colour CMYK has always annoyed me - and b/w printing is awful - hopefully improved with their latest set of 8 colour printers - with three blacks. Black and white commercial printing of photographic images has always been a problem - solved usually by the use of duotone or tritone. If you come across a book of Bresson's work or Adams have a look closely with a magnifier - the b/w photos will probably be two or three colour. Finally I would add the fact that re-resing is always possible with a good image editor - a 200/300ppi digital image can be easily upped to 1200ppi without problems. The image editor is simply doing what the scanner does over and above it's optical resolution - interpolation - but probably doing it much better in the case of Pshop. Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Hello Dan, Your suggestion of an iPhoto Coffee Table Book might make an excellent add-on to go out with the copies of the optical disc sets I am planning to distribute. I could cherry pick some of the best images, caption them, and make a nice pre-packaged album. As a method of generating a hardcopy storage output of the images in the collection, it's pretty unsatisfactory due to it's a) not being a long lasting visual medium and b) the picture quality can be rather hit or miss without a rigorous matching of one's files to the book printing process and the resolution is rather on the low side. The books themselves are definitely a good idea and can offer the chance to Graphic Design an album rather than knocking together one from small prints. Thanks, Richard On Jan 9, 10:52 am, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: At 10:10 PM -0800 1/8/2009, Paul wrote: One thing that never got mentioned was how much storage this project will use. Are you talking about dozens of DVD's, or over 100? Have you considered making at least one hard copy of the whole thing, for the sake of redundancy and for the greatest accessibility? Not necessarily for the primary hardcopy storage - but doesn't iPhoto have the ability to make a pdf of a coffee table type book? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
HiYa Pete and Everyone! On Jan 12, 7:47 am, pdimage pdim...@btinternet.com wrote: On 8/1/09 22:29, aussieshepsrock ilovaussiesh...@yahoo.com wrote: HiYa Pete and Everyone, My intended Scanning Methodology - Seperate from my Media Storage Options - is something like this. I've only done a 50 image or so 'test' run to sort out file size and physical process considerations at this point. Some of this is based on some comparative tests of various 'scanner driver' options. TIFF with internal compression OFF Photograph Fronts: 600 DPI Resolution 24 BIT Color Depth Digital ICE OFF - It's mucking much more than it's fixing. Unsharp Mask (in scanner software) at the High Setting because it appears to be a well behaved and subtle implementation in my testing up to this point. Photograph Backs: 300 DPI Resolution 8 Bit Grey Scale Unsharp Mask set to High All images receive Levels Adjustments Set Manually. The sliders for each color channel are tweaked individually so the sliders are just past the Highest and Lowest Point on the Histogram Display for Each Channel - ie the darkest/dimmest value is changed from zero to 9 if the scans histogram shows no info below 10. I am cautious about overpowering a particular channels level adjustments and making an image look 'wierd'. I believe this is called manually clipping the highlights and shadows. I can find very little 'standards or good practices' info via google or yahoo searches. This is just how I've learned to go about getting good scan results since my first encounter with a grayscale only flatbed back in the early nineties! Let me dive in. :-) Well you seem to have quite a job on so here's a few tips. It is going to be a bit of a slog. It's the most photo scans I've ever done at once, although I have worked a couple times at jobs where high- speed document scanning was a part of what I had to do. A rather different beast that only in a narrow sense is the same as scanning photo's. :-) The optical resolution of your scanner - say 600x600ppi for this purpose - is the limit for original capture - higher resolutions like 9600x9600ppi can only be provided by interpolation ... Your input is greatly appreciated, but I'm fully up on the Optical vs Interpolated with Scanners. I have actually re-discovered the knowledge that my Epson 4870 PHOTO Perfection scanner only does Transparencies Film at 4800 dpi! Document/Reflective scans top out at a respectable 1200x1200 true optical resolution. If memory serves, it's because a different lens and a narrower scan path is used for film that gives the higher resolution, but don't quote me on it. Unsharp masking is better done selectively per image in Pshop if you have it as ramping the edges to provide a sharper image can produce artifacts. You are quite right about the Unsharp Masking in Photoshop being an incredibly better tool than the ones in scanning software itself. However, when the autoexposure system isn't used in the epson driver and it's harsh restoration and autopilot systems are avoided, the Unsharp set up in the Epson Scan has a very light touch in the 1200 dpi scan tests I've done. As a matter of fact, it's about a quarter of the strength my Photoshop Experience tells me that would be necessary to negatively effect an image's quality in any way. There is nothing dramatic about the differences between ON or OFF, it's there, measurable, but subtle. Levels is a destructive process which affects the entire image - if you move the black point or white point by 10% you are not only disposing of 25 channel levels from each colour - you are creating 25 new ones for each colour as each channel must have 256 levels. I use the non destructive curves if at all possible and reserve level adjustment for very poor low key originals. I only have personal experience to draw upon because authoritative information about this has been difficult to find, but I have doubts as to your statement's applicability to how I edit the levels and how I carefully monitor my levels adjustments and their effect regarding each level and how the levels act in conjunction to generate the whole image. I'll try to find a better way to write how I edit levels, how I approach them as a photo person, and what makes my methods seem to be 'non destructive' from my perspective as a photographer and someone trying to be faithful to what is or isn't in a scan. Highest resolution? I would say around the 200/300ppi mark unless they are earmarked for substantial enlargement. The human eye can only resolve around 180 levels, b/w newspapers print photos at around 80 lines of dots per inch (the cheap paper limits the res) and we see them well as images. Glossy colour mags 133/150/175 lines of dots per inch and they look very acceptable even though the CMYK space is smaller than RGB. Computer monitors are limited by dot pitch and can only manage hardware res around
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 9, 2009, at 10:08 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: On Jan 9, 8:07 pm, Charles Davis c...@gamewood.net wrote: On Jan 9, 2009, at 7:30 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: Hi Chuck! Topic: Storing Original Prints As Best Option - A Discussion Upfront! Well Kept Prints Are By leaps and bounds this is UNEQUIVOCABLY The Best Option! Any and All Atempts To Explain Doing So Is Best Is To Be 'Preaching To The Choir'. My Photographic Skils Come Out Of Large Format Cameras And Sporting Darkroom Tans. Give me properly processed 4x5 negatives and fibre based prints or Cibachrome Color Prints and I'll be the Most Happy guy around! Which is why you are aware that 'photographic' (chemical/ paper/ negative) copies have the potential to NOT lose hidden data. [Talking about 'granularity' of the image, for BW, Color is a bit different, but still BOTH contain far more data than a 'granularity = 600 or 1200 dpi can record. I am still 'source material' limited here. Your arguments are exceptionally valid and I don't dispute them in any way. Being satisfied with the appearance of a 4x6 at 600 dpi, is fine, IF that 600 dpi is derived from 1200 dpi or 2400 dpi original data. Nice chunks of this collection have solidly visible film grain. Ouch!!! There goes that avenue of attack! I have almost NO negatives to confirm this, but I suspect 110 and Disc camera sources for some of these images. Even the ones sourced from 35mm were either shot on horrifically bad film stock, shot with astonishingly bad cameras, or printed quite poorly in a high volume situation - Likely combinations of all three at once! Blury highly visible film grain scanned at 1200 dpi is legitimately wasting at least half the pixels. :-) although, I do really like over scans of this type for doing heavy duty dust, speckle, and scratch removal activity in photoshop. You've been further into this than I was conscious of. you have the higher resolution data available, you can drop quality all you want when you are printing, with no problem. But there is a limit as to how much you can enlarge things depending on the dpi available to you AT THAT TIME. Once you cut the dpi information, that's the NEW limit. Can't magically get those pixels back. :-) Agreed! - I also face the loss of info from the horrific printing process these negatives experienced! Having established THAT data point! :-) I have to accept the photos in this box for what they mostly are. CHEAP Color Prints from the late Seventies to Early Nineties. By Definition that makes them NON-Archival. But you can transfer those pics to current 'photo quality' with attention to using archival grade materials when appropriate. I am trying to put together a print process to go alongside the digital storage arrangement. It might be the 2nd stage of the my project. That could work, more time to gather resources ($), methods, whatever. The later stuff will take a fair bit longer to self destruct, but self destruct they will. They have also lived a semi-rough life in the environs of my Grand Mothers home. Loved, but not well stored or temperature protected for the most part. The clock is ticking on these pictures. Fortunately, you shouldn't be having 'Next Week' deadline problems. :-) Agreed! I just wanted to differentiate these prints versus the much longer living black and white prints people might have in their heads. Color prints, especially early high volume stuff are an entirely different beast. Most of the Treasures in Grandma's Collection were BW and THEY ARE GONE. The ones that are physically gone, we can only commiserate over, the ones that are physically present, but lousy quality, can be looked at with the eye to eventually trying 'wild ideas' for restoration of detail' (Newer methods of processing, whatever.) I would like to have a Non Computer Based Solution to 'Saving' these images and distributing them. I actually have one, but the agreggate cost might be daunting. I can take the Digital Files I am making and print them at the local Professional Photo Lab we have in this town. It's actually a semi- major player nationally and draws clients globally. I used to work there 7 or 8 years ago. Great People. For anything beyond snapshots EVERYTHING I need printed goes to them. Period. They aren't overwhelmingly expensive, but their Quality is Many Orders Of Magnitude Better than using Walgreens or Walmart or Snapfish or Whatever. The only thing I would question Re: the commercial lab, is whether they are doing things via FILM, or using 'Digital' steps in their processing. People may never notice (to complain about) loss of 'foundational' data from the frames. Remember, as good as you say they are, you have already 'reduced' the grain/pixel information. The 'Reduction' of Information Argument you are presenting is Valid. The response I'm giving is to say that the Grain of The Paper
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 7:20 PM -0800 1/8/2009, aussieshepsrock wrote: TIFF with internal compression OFF 600 DPI Resolution IF you can stand the increase in file size, go for more DPI. Absent a rescan of the original, it's information that can never be duplicated. I am really leaning towards 1200 dpi, but aproximately 70% of these images I'm scanning were shot with the cheapest of cameras and are the cheapest of machine prints. 1200 dpi scans of originals that represent a resolving power less than half of that is a serious waste of effort ya. Gotta optimize. Im serious folks, these were taken with the $5 specials were grandma's camera of choice. A few years back, I scanned stuff taken with an old Brownie. Some of it was quite grainy / faded. Having the scans in higher resolution (I think I did maybe 800dpi) let me do some interesting manipulations, that made them look fantastic when printed! You may be pleasantly surprised by the amount of 'forgotten' information recoverable at your 'Naming Parties'. I am counting on that! I also know my family is going to have a blast remembering things. I just had the thought of videotaping the parties to record the stories and the people interacting. hm Definitely videotape them. Our family's collection... One of the most important items in it is a reel-to-reel audio tape of an Aunt talking about an old photo - then telling a story of her childhood in Russia. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 9, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Dan wrote: Definitely videotape them. Our family's collection... One of the most important items in it is a reel-to-reel audio tape of an Aunt talking about an old photo - then telling a story of her childhood in Russia. Garage Band makes it painfully simple (and I mean painfully...the PHB here figured it out on his own!) to record stuff like that. He simply connected the headphone output of his casette recorder to his powerbook and digitized his daughters' performance at a school play when they were 7 or 8. (they're in their 20's and 30's now...this was an old tape.) -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Topic: Storing Original Prints As Best Option - A Discussion Upfront! Well Kept Prints Are By leaps and bounds this is UNEQUIVOCABLY The Best Option! Any and All Atempts To Explain Doing So Is Best Is To Be 'Preaching To The Choir'. My Photographic Skils Come Out Of Large Format Cameras And Sporting Darkroom Tans. Give me properly processed 4x5 negatives and fibre based prints or Cibachrome Color Prints and I'll be the Most Happy guy around! Having established THAT data point! :-) I have to accept the photos in this box for what they mostly are. CHEAP Color Prints from the late Seventies to Early Nineties. By Definition that makes them NON-Archival. The later stuff will take a fair bit longer to self destruct, but self destruct they will. They have also lived a semi-rough life in the environs of my Grand Mothers home. Loved, but not well stored or temperature protected for the most part. The clock is ticking on these pictures. I would like to have a Non Computer Based Solution to 'Saving' these images and distributing them. I actually have one, but the agreggate cost might be daunting. I can take the Digital Files I am making and print them at the local Professional Photo Lab we have in this town. It's actually a semi- major player nationally and draws clients globally. I used to work there 7 or 8 years ago. Great People. For anything beyond snapshots EVERYTHING I need printed goes to them. Period. They aren't overwhelmingly expensive, but their Quality is Many Orders Of Magnitude Better than using Walgreens or Walmart or Snapfish or Whatever. It would likely cost 150+ dollars a copy just for each set of prints, but I have worked out a process of using Photoshop to divide an 8x10 into 5x8 halves showing each photo and an associated data block showing the available info for each photo. Going this route would buy in to the absolute best printing papers and high quality printing processes to give the longest living color prints I am likely to reasonably encounter. The high res scans would 'hold' more absolute photographic info, but the prints would have the benefit of only needing photon's and breathing people to be accessible in the future! The good ole Mark One Eyeball. Technology Extrordinaire! The likely availability of light and people 5-10 years from now is statistically pretty hopeful! The certainty of cd's, dvd's, or HD's a Decade out might be more squishy! LOL The issue for me is that 2 sets of prints and associated appropriate storage materials looks like a 500 dollar minimum buy in. It is definitely a goal to have this print set, but I don't see how to make it yet. Richard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 9, 2009, at 7:30 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: Topic: Storing Original Prints As Best Option - A Discussion Upfront! Well Kept Prints Are By leaps and bounds this is UNEQUIVOCABLY The Best Option! Any and All Atempts To Explain Doing So Is Best Is To Be 'Preaching To The Choir'. My Photographic Skils Come Out Of Large Format Cameras And Sporting Darkroom Tans. Give me properly processed 4x5 negatives and fibre based prints or Cibachrome Color Prints and I'll be the Most Happy guy around! Which is why you are aware that 'photographic' (chemical/ paper/ negative) copies have the potential to NOT lose hidden data. [Talking about 'granularity' of the image, for BW, Color is a bit different, but still BOTH contain far more data than a 'granularity = 600 or 1200 dpi can record. Being satisfied with the appearance of a 4x6 at 600 dpi, is fine, IF that 600 dpi is derived from 1200 dpi or 2400 dpi original data. IF you have the higher resolution data available, you can drop quality all you want when you are printing, with no problem. But there is a limit as to how much you can enlarge things depending on the dpi available to you AT THAT TIME. Once you cut the dpi information, that's the NEW limit. Can't magically get those pixels back. Having established THAT data point! :-) I have to accept the photos in this box for what they mostly are. CHEAP Color Prints from the late Seventies to Early Nineties. By Definition that makes them NON-Archival. But you can transfer those pics to current 'photo quality' with attention to using archival grade materials when appropriate. The later stuff will take a fair bit longer to self destruct, but self destruct they will. They have also lived a semi-rough life in the environs of my Grand Mothers home. Loved, but not well stored or temperature protected for the most part. The clock is ticking on these pictures. Fortunately, you shouldn't be having 'Next Week' deadline problems. I would like to have a Non Computer Based Solution to 'Saving' these images and distributing them. I actually have one, but the agreggate cost might be daunting. I can take the Digital Files I am making and print them at the local Professional Photo Lab we have in this town. It's actually a semi- major player nationally and draws clients globally. I used to work there 7 or 8 years ago. Great People. For anything beyond snapshots EVERYTHING I need printed goes to them. Period. They aren't overwhelmingly expensive, but their Quality is Many Orders Of Magnitude Better than using Walgreens or Walmart or Snapfish or Whatever. Remember, as good as you say they are, you have already 'reduced' the grain/pixel information. Maybe the solution to the 'photographic reproduction' problem is as simple (yeah right) as locating a willing amateur photo buff, that still runs his own dark room, and supplying materials. It would likely cost 150+ dollars a copy just for each set of prints, but I have worked out a process of using Photoshop to divide an 8x10 into 5x8 halves showing each photo and an associated data block showing the available info for each photo. Going this route would buy in to the absolute best printing papers and high quality printing processes to give the longest living color prints I am likely to reasonably encounter. The high res scans would 'hold' more absolute photographic info, but the prints would have the benefit of only needing photon's and breathing people to be accessible in the future! The good ole Mark One Eyeball. Technology Extrordinaire! This was what I was getting at with my comments about an 'archival system' The likely availability of light and people 5-10 years from now is statistically pretty hopeful! The certainty of cd's, dvd's, or HD's a Decade out might be more squishy! LOL The Digital solution has the advantage of being easily searched, reproduced, etc. The 'photographic method' is closer to an 'Archival solution'. Maybe a combination (gets things into two different physical systems right off the bat) would answer the overall problem best. The issue for me is that 2 sets of prints and associated appropriate storage materials looks like a 500 dollar minimum buy in. There go those darn $'s, rearing their ugly heads again! Chuck D. It is definitely a goal to have this print set, but I don't see how to make it yet. Richard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Thanks for the Support and Sympathy Bruce. I will swallow my diatribes about 'him' except to unequivocably state he has forfeited his status as member of the Human Race. There is no stepping back from the actions he took in this instance. Yet, it's just one of a collection of instances. Transatlantic Soccer Goals With His Testes is just a good start. ccoe! Richard On Jan 9, 6:29 pm, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:18 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: This box I temporarily have only exist because my Aunt happened to spot it atop the trash can at the curb when she dropped by unannounced. Unannounced visits are mostly the only way to see my Grandma because 'HE' finds ways to prevent or delay most visits. Yes, Grandma is in a Strong Cognitive Decline, but 'HE' has never knowingly 'Physically Harmed' her. The cognitive decline is the only way he was able to destroy her precious photograph collection. Absent physical or fiscal abuse the families ability to step in is severely limited. This is a classic sign of controlling behavior. Since she is in cognitive decline, physical and psychological abuse are very hard to diagnose, many municipalities have domestic violence agencies that can help you with this sort of thing, and make no mistake...what he did was domestic violence. Personally I'd have kicked him so hard I'd have scored field goals in Estonia and Turkey simultaneously with his balls, that's an unforgivable piece of assholery. (but I'm probably a bit sensitive. A great-aunt of mine had a similar vast collection of photos and genealogical information compiled about the family, including stuff from people who were long dead...she felt slighted by her sisters for some thing or another, went home and threw it all into the fireplace.) -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 9, 8:07 pm, Charles Davis c...@gamewood.net wrote: On Jan 9, 2009, at 7:30 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: Hi Chuck! Topic: Storing Original Prints As Best Option - A Discussion Upfront! Well Kept Prints Are By leaps and bounds this is UNEQUIVOCABLY The Best Option! Any and All Atempts To Explain Doing So Is Best Is To Be 'Preaching To The Choir'. My Photographic Skils Come Out Of Large Format Cameras And Sporting Darkroom Tans. Give me properly processed 4x5 negatives and fibre based prints or Cibachrome Color Prints and I'll be the Most Happy guy around! Which is why you are aware that 'photographic' (chemical/ paper/ negative) copies have the potential to NOT lose hidden data. [Talking about 'granularity' of the image, for BW, Color is a bit different, but still BOTH contain far more data than a 'granularity = 600 or 1200 dpi can record. I am still 'source material' limited here. Your arguments are exceptionally valid and I don't dispute them in any way. Being satisfied with the appearance of a 4x6 at 600 dpi, is fine, IF that 600 dpi is derived from 1200 dpi or 2400 dpi original data. Nice chunks of this collection have solidly visible film grain. I have almost NO negatives to confirm this, but I suspect 110 and Disc camera sources for some of these images. Even the ones sourced from 35mm were either shot on horrifically bad film stock, shot with astonishingly bad cameras, or printed quite poorly in a high volume situation - Likely combinations of all three at once! Blury highly visible film grain scanned at 1200 dpi is legitimately wasting at least half the pixels. :-) although, I do really like over scans of this type for doing heavy duty dust, speckle, and scratch removal activity in photoshop. you have the higher resolution data available, you can drop quality all you want when you are printing, with no problem. But there is a limit as to how much you can enlarge things depending on the dpi available to you AT THAT TIME. Once you cut the dpi information, that's the NEW limit. Can't magically get those pixels back. :-) Agreed! - I also face the loss of info from the horrific printing process these negatives experienced! Having established THAT data point! :-) I have to accept the photos in this box for what they mostly are. CHEAP Color Prints from the late Seventies to Early Nineties. By Definition that makes them NON-Archival. But you can transfer those pics to current 'photo quality' with attention to using archival grade materials when appropriate. I am trying to put together a print process to go alongside the digital storage arrangement. It might be the 2nd stage of the my project. The later stuff will take a fair bit longer to self destruct, but self destruct they will. They have also lived a semi-rough life in the environs of my Grand Mothers home. Loved, but not well stored or temperature protected for the most part. The clock is ticking on these pictures. Fortunately, you shouldn't be having 'Next Week' deadline problems. :-) Agreed! I just wanted to differentiate these prints versus the much longer living black and white prints people might have in their heads. Color prints, especially early high volume stuff are an entirely different beast. Most of the Treasures in Grandma's Collection were BW and THEY ARE GONE. I would like to have a Non Computer Based Solution to 'Saving' these images and distributing them. I actually have one, but the agreggate cost might be daunting. I can take the Digital Files I am making and print them at the local Professional Photo Lab we have in this town. It's actually a semi- major player nationally and draws clients globally. I used to work there 7 or 8 years ago. Great People. For anything beyond snapshots EVERYTHING I need printed goes to them. Period. They aren't overwhelmingly expensive, but their Quality is Many Orders Of Magnitude Better than using Walgreens or Walmart or Snapfish or Whatever. Remember, as good as you say they are, you have already 'reduced' the grain/pixel information. The 'Reduction' of Information Argument you are presenting is Valid. The response I'm giving is to say that the Grain of The Paper is being used to reproduce huge film grain in minute detail. A 600 dpi scan of Film Grain I can sometimes measure with a Ruler! Were these prints made from ANY camera I've Used Routinely - even the 'Bad' stuff from my early days they would merit MUCH higher resolution scans. I have a Shot on ordinary Kodak Gold shot with a K-mart Focal Brand Wide Angle that has incredibly more detail at 8x10 than many of these 3x5's. I am not disparaging her Camera's or her Pictures by comparing them to what I would have gotten from my Zeiss, my Rolleiflex, or my 4x5 from back in my Film Days. I am factually stating that a Fuji Single Use 35mm Camera would have been a Giant step up in Image Quality! Please Trust Me On This! I have seen Higher
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 8:15 PM -0500 1/9/2009, John Callahan wrote: Haven't read anything in this discussion about the use of flash memory for archiving photographs etc. Would someone expand on this? Flash is one of the least reliable medias available. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 9, 8:15 pm, John Callahan jcalla...@stny.rr.com wrote: On Jan 9, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Dan wrote: Hi John! At 10:10 PM -0800 1/8/2009, Paul wrote: One thing that never got mentioned was how much storage this project will use. Are you talking about dozens of DVD's, or over 100? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth I did a Post re: archive size - nothing definite yet. My Options on file size, dpi variables, and potential individual file compression usage, are not locked in place yet. I WANT to keep it to 10-15 DVD's but still prefering CDR's at this point. Research is ongoing. Haven't read anything in this discussion about the use of flash memory for archiving photographs etc. Would someone expand on this? Great discussion, one of the best and most informative I've seen on LEM. Excellent Question! Easily Answered! Flash Memory IS NOT ARCHIVAL. Period! To Over Simplify The Reason - The fast changing materials which 'flash' on and off to store the 1's and 0's are inherently unstable. For the Memory to be quick it has to change fast, but a quickly changing material generally doesn't resist change well. Over time the material evolves to give an incorrect 1 or 0 or an indeterminate answer. Compared to the volatile system ram in our mac's they last a really flippin long time. But long term storage it isn't. I can over personal experience of having encountered messed up files on my CF cards that were sitting unused for a couple of months. I usually keep em empty for quick use as needed, but a 128mb card and an 8mp dSLR is essentially an exercise in futility! The 128's sat in a draw as soon as my 20D came on the scene! John Callahan Richard If there are no dogs in Heaven, when I die I want to go where they went.¨ . Ah - What He Said Times TEN. Go Will Rogers! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Flash Memory IS NOT ARCHIVAL. Period! To Over Simplify The Reason - The fast changing materials which 'flash' on and off to store the 1's and 0's are inherently unstable. For the Memory to be quick it has to change fast, but a quickly changing material generally doesn't resist change well. Over time the material evolves to give an incorrect 1 or 0 or an indeterminate answer. Compared to the volatile system ram in our mac's they last a really flippin long time. But long term storage it isn't. Yes, I know I muffed my analogies in that expanation, but the essence is valid. The method the 1's and 0's are stored is inherently unstable and the 1's and 0's don't stay as specified in a durable manner. The 'data' in a sense evolves on it's own and can't be relied upon in a 'calendar' based measurement of time. Is that phrased better? Richard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Fri, 2009-01-09 at 21:21 -0800, aussieshepsrock wrote: The method the 1's and 0's are stored is inherently unstable and the 1's and 0's don't stay as specified in a durable manner. The 'data' in a sense evolves on it's own and can't be relied upon in a 'calendar' based measurement of time. Is that phrased better? Howdy, The way I would say it is that Flash memory stores bits as voltages for a bunch of memory cells. The voltage decays over time and so Flash memory is not suitable for archival. If you want to get a little more technical, most Flash memory these days is MLC where each memory cell represents 2 or 3 bits of storage. MLC is even worse to consider for archival, because even smaller voltage drops will change the value that is represented in the memory cell. Good luck, Ralph --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Ralph Green wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 21:13 -0800, aussieshepsrock wrote: Has anyone heard of Taiyo Yuden the japanese cdr dvdr media manufacturer? Taiyo Yuden is generally considered to be the best producer of media out there. They are rarely the cheapest. At one time, Taiyo Yuden manufactured the premium Fuji disks. I don't know if they still do. The key to the stability of the Taiyo Yuden disk seems to be their consistency in their dye formulation. It is usually the fading dyes of CDR and DVDR disk that cause them to become unreadable. If you want a good deal on Taiyo Yuden, look in the stores for Fuji disks manufactured in Japan. Those all seem to be Taiyo Yuden disks. Skip the ones made in other countries. Good luck, Ralph As a side source to this discussion I was in Office Depot (Midwest City, OK store) yesterday. They were running a clearance on Ativa Gold DVD+R or DVD-R 50 pack price on shelf $14.00 price at register $10.50 I know nothing about the brand/media, but for that price it's worth buying some to test. Now to go steal the external burner back from the kid. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On 7/1/09 23:00, aussieshepsrock ilovaussiesh...@yahoo.com wrote: Original Poster here.. This jpeg vs tiff question is pretty important to me. My personal experience with jpegs is that the inherent nature of how the compression it uses works, very little quantities of data loss equate with the Functional Loss of the image. My limited knowledge of the 'nature' of TIFF is that (to some extent) it is more resistant to losing the entire image if data describing specific pixels is lost or compromised. Does anyone know if this is correct? A further question I have is that the TIFF 'standards' site I was looking at indicates that a previously 'patented' compression option inside of TIFF -I believe the LZW option- was transfered to the public domain -or something similar- so it is considered an open standard that Archive and Library folks and companies are more comfortable using it. My question is whether the LossLess Internal File Compression option makes the individual files be more at risk in the presence of 'partial' file loss? :-) Richard Uncompressed tiff is possibly the simplest format for 24 bit digital storage with a view to perfect repro. The RGB data is stored as three xy pixelmaps of the 8 bit channel values in uint8 (unsigned 8 bit integer) or the binary equivalent of nought to 255 (signed would add a negative or positive symbol). So you have three channels of colour data - one for each of RGB - and 256 available integers for the levels in each channel. In the case of a simple one pixel solid colour like Pantone Process Cyan the tiff file saves the channels as 0 Red, 157 Green and 217 Blue. Matlab will open uncompressed tiff files and displays the image as three pages of values from 0 - 255. I don't know of anything which will open a jpeg as text or binary info.. Worth bearing in mind is the effect of differing colour profiles - an image which has been optimised on a monitor in the sRGB colourspace will look very different on a monitor which uses a wider profile like the Adobe wide Gamut space - as the channel/level info will be recalculated up to suit and similarly the other way - data from a wider colourspace is shrunk - or in the case of absolute colorimetric dumped - to fit the smaller space. I don't actually use the Fuji Pro black discs for image storage at all - I use them for Red Book CD Audio - and no coasters or failures yet though I imagine audio is the most punishing use of CDR - in and out of jewel cases etc Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
HiYa Pete and Everyone, My intended Scanning Methodology - Seperate from my Media Storage Options - is something like this. I've only done a 50 image or so 'test' run to sort out file size and physical process considerations at this point. Some of this is based on some comparative tests of various 'scanner driver' options. TIFF with internal compression OFF Photograph Fronts: 600 DPI Resolution 24 BIT Color Depth Digital ICE OFF - It's mucking much more than it's fixing. Unsharp Mask (in scanner software) at the High Setting because it appears to be a well behaved and subtle implementation in my testing up to this point. Photograph Backs: 300 DPI Resolution 8 Bit Grey Scale Unsharp Mask set to High All images receive Levels Adjustments Set Manually. The sliders for each color channel are tweaked individually so the sliders are just past the Highest and Lowest Point on the Histogram Display for Each Channel - ie the darkest/dimmest value is changed from zero to 9 if the scans histogram shows no info below 10. I am cautious about overpowering a particular channels level adjustments and making an image look 'wierd'. I believe this is called manually clipping the highlights and shadows. I can find very little 'standards or good practices' info via google or yahoo searches. This is just how I've learned to go about getting good scan results since my first encounter with a grayscale only flatbed back in the early nineties! I'm scanning Fronts and Backs using the scanners auto name and numbering setup to coordinate The front and back of image scans in my files. I am using a file name system of '12-15-08 Scans - Back -005.tif' where the Date describes the date the scan was made on, if it's the front or back, and 005 is the 5th image scanned that day. The physical process is that I arrange the photos on the scanner, do the multiple marquee's for the different images with attendant Levels adjustments, hit SCAN and verify the file name is correct and so is the auto number start point. After the fronts finish scanning, I carefully flip the images, switch to greyscale and lower resolution, and make sure the file name is changed and the auto number start point is rolled back to the right point. My theory is to scan the fronts and backs in order to capture things written on the backs of the photo's themselves. I am physically scanning ALL the backs - even those with nothing marked on them - because it was more efficient to just flip the images over to scan all the backs with a filename and auto number adjustment than coordinate which image with stuff written on it matched up with which file name and number and manually set each name for each scan that needed to be made. By scanning every damn picture back it makes it a lot simpler and faster to get the file names right, if I muff the filename having scanned the back becomes totally meaningless as source of information. Also scanning ALL of them helps avoid missing photo backs that I want scanned. At the conclusion I intend to simply delete all the scans of photo backs nobody wrote anything on. :-) This is the extent of my plan to this point. I'll be kicking off the scanning soon, so valuable suggestions on this side of my project would be really cool so I don't have to rescan stuff! :-) My Intention/Plan is to have 'picture naming' memory parties with various family members in order to view the photo's and add the appropriate info to the image files. Each images specific info will be kept integrat to each specific image file. I haven't researched the exact way to put the info in the tiff's themselves, but I'm feeling confident that the EXIF info I love in my Digital Photography are part of an international standards setup and I can easily access and use that process using Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture, and the like. This whole name/date/event side of the project is a work in progress at this point. Richard Worth bearing in mind is the effect of differing colour profiles - an image which has been optimised on a monitor in the sRGB colourspace will look very different on a monitor which uses a wider profile like the Adobe wide Gamut space - as the channel/level info will be recalculated up to suit and similarly the other way - data from a wider colourspace is shrunk - or in the case of absolute colorimetric dumped - to fit the smaller space. I don't actually use the Fuji Pro black discs for image storage at all - I use them for Red Book CD Audio - and no coasters or failures yet though I imagine audio is the most punishing use of CDR - in and out of jewel cases etc Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Comments below! On Jan 8, 2009, at 5:29 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: HiYa Pete and Everyone, My intended Scanning Methodology - Seperate from my Media Storage Options - is something like this. I've only done a 50 image or so 'test' run to sort out file size and physical process considerations at this point. Some of this is based on some comparative tests of various 'scanner driver' options. TIFF with internal compression OFF Photograph Fronts: 600 DPI Resolution IF you can stand the increase in file size, go for more DPI. Absent a rescan of the original, it's information that can never be duplicated. 24 BIT Color Depth Digital ICE OFF - It's mucking much more than it's fixing. Unsharp Mask (in scanner software) at the High Setting because it appears to be a well behaved and subtle implementation in my testing up to this point. Photograph Backs: 300 DPI Resolution Adequate for pencil/pen text data. 8 Bit Grey Scale Unsharp Mask set to High All images receive Levels Adjustments Set Manually. The sliders for each color channel are tweaked individually so the sliders are just past the Highest and Lowest Point on the Histogram Display for Each Channel - ie the darkest/dimmest value is changed from zero to 9 if the scans histogram shows no info below 10. I am cautious about overpowering a particular channels level adjustments and making an image look 'wierd'. I believe this is called manually clipping the highlights and shadows. I can find very little 'standards or good practices' info via google or yahoo searches. This is just how I've learned to go about getting good scan results since my first encounter with a grayscale only flatbed back in the early nineties! Youve worked out something that you are satisfied with, go for it! I'm scanning Fronts and Backs using the scanners auto name and numbering setup to coordinate The front and back of image scans in my files. I am using a file name system of '12-15-08 Scans - Back -005.tif' where the Date describes the date the scan was made on, if it's the front or back, and 005 is the 5th image scanned that day. The physical process is that I arrange the photos on the scanner, do the multiple marquee's for the different images with attendant Levels adjustments, hit SCAN and verify the file name is correct and so is the auto number start point. After the fronts finish scanning, I carefully flip the images, switch to greyscale and lower resolution, and make sure the file name is changed and the auto number start point is rolled back to the right point. My theory is to scan the fronts and backs in order to capture things written on the backs of the photo's themselves. I am physically scanning ALL the backs - even those with nothing marked on them - because it was more efficient to just flip the images over to scan all the backs with a filename and auto number adjustment than coordinate which image with stuff written on it matched up with which file name and number and manually set each name for each scan that needed to be made. By scanning every damn picture back it makes it a lot simpler and faster to get the file names right, if I muff the filename having scanned the back becomes totally meaningless as source of information. Also scanning ALL of them helps avoid missing photo backs that I want scanned. At the conclusion I intend to simply delete all the scans of photo backs nobody wrote anything on. :-) This is the extent of my plan to this point. I'll be kicking off the scanning soon, so valuable suggestions on this side of my project would be really cool so I don't have to rescan stuff! :-) My Intention/Plan is to have 'picture naming' memory parties with various family members in order to view the photo's and add the appropriate info to the image files. IF you can add text to the 'back' images, that would simplify things. Also maybe make use of those 'blank' backs? You may be pleasantly surprised by the amount of 'forgotten' information recoverable at your 'Naming Parties'. Also, work out in advance how YOU are going to handle 'conflicting' memory information. (Avoid any fights if at all possible.) Each images specific info will be kept integrat to each specific image file. I haven't researched the exact way to put the info in the tiff's themselves, but I'm feeling confident that the EXIF info I love in my Digital Photography are part of an international standards setup and I can easily access and use that process using Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture, and the like. This whole name/date/event side of the project is a work in progress at this point. Richard Chuck D. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Hi Chuck, TIFF with internal compression OFF Photograph Fronts: 600 DPI Resolution IF you can stand the increase in file size, go for more DPI. Absent a rescan of the original, it's information that can never be duplicated. I am really leaning towards 1200 dpi, but aproximately 70% of these images I'm scanning were shot with the cheapest of cameras and are the cheapest of machine prints. 1200 dpi scans of originals that represent a resolving power less than half of that is a serious waste of effort and file size. Im serious folks, these were taken with the $5 specials were grandma's camera of choice. Name Brand Single Use Cameras had better optics! I have to do some math in regards to total number of images and what the final file collection may represent in terms of aggregate total Gig's I will be dealing with. I want to keep the 'Disc Set' in either the 5 disc or 10 disc range. I think I'll be forced into DVD-r's by the agregate file size. I don't want to drop a huge quantity of CD-r's on people, but they would be my preference. Photograph Backs: 300 DPI Resolution Adequate for pencil/pen text data. That's what my experiments told me. :-) 8 Bit Grey Scale Unsharp Mask set to High All images receive Levels Adjustments Set Manually. The sliders for each color channel are tweaked individually so the sliders are just past the Highest and Lowest Point on the Histogram Display for Each Channel - ie the darkest/dimmest value is changed from zero to 9 if the scans histogram shows no info below 10. I am cautious about overpowering a particular channels level adjustments and making an image look 'wierd'. I believe this is called manually clipping the highlights and shadows. I can find very little 'standards or good practices' info via google or yahoo searches. This is just how I've learned to go about getting good scan results since my first encounter with a grayscale only flatbed back in the early nineties! Youve worked out something that you are satisfied with, go for it! Thanks! I plan to! My Intention/Plan is to have 'picture naming' memory parties with various family members in order to view the photo's and add the appropriate info to the image files. IF you can add text to the 'back' images, that would simplify things. Also maybe make use of those 'blank' backs? I hadn't thought of that option! I don't particularly think I can make it work well from an implementation viewpoint. I think taking advantage of the EXIF Standards that already exist for Photographic Creators, Distributors, and Users to include full and complete information about Who/What/Where/When along with a TON of other information in the Professional Digital Photography Images will be my best bet. I have more research to do, but I think it would be a complete gift to my relatives of the future in searching for specific pictures of specific people. You may be pleasantly surprised by the amount of 'forgotten' information recoverable at your 'Naming Parties'. I am counting on that! I also know my family is going to have a blast remembering things. I just had the thought of videotaping the parties to record the stories and the people interacting. hm Also, work out in advance how YOU are going to handle 'conflicting' memory information. (Avoid any fights if at all possible.) Since little of the photos remain from Grandma's early days of photographing her kids and the photo's of earlier generations, exact photograph dates and events and names aren't an option. I will note the uncertainty in some manner in my files and notes. I am thinking of having some sort of 'Data Sheet' printed and having people at the events write their notes on them. Each Sheet would have a matching file name or small preview image on them. Maybe I would then scan them and line the file names up in my file naming structure somehow. As well as distilling the info into tags on the files. By the way, I have an aging parent who is showing an accelerating presence of Alzheimers like symptoms. I also have a very unusual way of storing and recalling memories. Exact names and textual type info and exact procedural memories are quite the mish mash. My relationship with the sensing and remembering of things related to days, dates, and times is quite problematic. It's like the the file cards in my head get shuffled and redealt on a routine basis. Mis-remembered events and the blending of stories or people is a part of my everyday life in one way or another! Richard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 8, 2009, at 10:20 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: Hi Chuck, TIFF with internal compression OFF Photograph Fronts: 600 DPI Resolution IF you can stand the increase in file size, go for more DPI. Absent a rescan of the original, it's information that can never be duplicated. I am really leaning towards 1200 dpi, but aproximately 70% of these images I'm scanning were shot with the cheapest of cameras and are the cheapest of machine prints. 1200 dpi scans of originals that represent a resolving power less than half of that is a serious waste of effort and file size. Im serious folks, these were taken with the $5 specials were grandma's camera of choice. Name Brand Single Use Cameras had better optics! Which is a valid consideration. Maybe keep in mind that ALL the pictures do not have to come out to the same size. I have to do some math in regards to total number of images and what the final file collection may represent in terms of aggregate total Gig's I will be dealing with. I want to keep the 'Disc Set' in either the 5 disc or 10 disc range. I think I'll be forced into DVD-r's by the agregate file size. I don't want to drop a huge quantity of CD-r's on people, but they would be my preference. This bring s convenient point to mention a part of this overall problem that hasn't come up. The BEST (most useful with the least ancillary needs), is multiple sets of photographic prints. Yeah, we are a bunch of 'computer junkies', and it's fun to figure out how to combine interests, BUT, what you are getting into with this program, is NOY Archival storage of 'pictures data', But an ARCHIVE SYSTEM, which REQUIRES equipment to 'retrieve/ view' the Archive', which can complicate (at some time in the future) use of the 'Archive' to the point of practical loss. Your 'sets' of CDs, need to have an accompanying PAPER TEXT description of what is there, the method to retrieve the data [to an 'anal retentive' level], and probably a description of the hardware needed. Photograph Backs: 300 DPI Resolution Adequate for pencil/pen text data. That's what my experiments told me. :-) 8 Bit Grey Scale Unsharp Mask set to High All images receive Levels Adjustments Set Manually. The sliders for each color channel are tweaked individually so the sliders are just past the Highest and Lowest Point on the Histogram Display for Each Channel - ie the darkest/dimmest value is changed from zero to 9 if the scans histogram shows no info below 10. I am cautious about overpowering a particular channels level adjustments and making an image look 'wierd'. I believe this is called manually clipping the highlights and shadows. I can find very little 'standards or good practices' info via google or yahoo searches. This is just how I've learned to go about getting good scan results since my first encounter with a grayscale only flatbed back in the early nineties! Youve worked out something that you are satisfied with, go for it! Thanks! I plan to! My Intention/Plan is to have 'picture naming' memory parties with various family members in order to view the photo's and add the appropriate info to the image files. IF you can add text to the 'back' images, that would simplify things. Also maybe make use of those 'blank' backs? I hadn't thought of that option! I don't particularly think I can make it work well from an implementation viewpoint. Won't hurt to look into it though. I think taking advantage of the EXIF Standards that already exist for Photographic Creators, Distributors, and Users to include full and complete information about Who/What/Where/When along with a TON of other information in the Professional Digital Photography Images will be my best bet. I have more research to do, but I think it would be a complete gift to my relatives of the future in searching for specific pictures of specific people. You may be pleasantly surprised by the amount of 'forgotten' information recoverable at your 'Naming Parties'. I am counting on that! I also know my family is going to have a blast remembering things. I just had the thought of videotaping the parties to record the stories and the people interacting. hm That is a VERY good thought --- even if you don't Video things, an Audio record of what happens could prove useful. Also, work out in advance how YOU are going to handle 'conflicting' memory information. (Avoid any fights if at all possible.) Since little of the photos remain from Grandma's early days of photographing her kids and the photo's of earlier generations, exact photograph dates and events and names aren't an option. I will note the uncertainty in some manner in my files and notes. I am thinking of having some sort of 'Data Sheet' printed and having people at the events write their notes on them. Each Sheet would have a matching file name or small preview image on them. Maybe I would then scan them and
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
One thing that never got mentioned was how much storage this project will use. Are you talking about dozens of DVD's, or over 100? Have you considered making at least one hard copy of the whole thing, for the sake of redundancy and for the greatest accessibility? I think the safest method would be to use two different kinds of media; e.g., one optical and one magnetic. And all this just reminded me about magneto optical storage. Some time in the 1990's, I bought a 230 MB SCSI MO drive for about $150, at a time when CD writers cost much more than that. (I still have it, too.) Back then, all Macs had a SCSI port in the back, and I was able to get a used SCSI card for my PC. They still make MO devices, with capacity up to a few GB per disc. Sony audio mini-discs use MO technology, too. As for CD's and DVD's, Verbatim and Taiyo Yuden are the brands I see most often mentioned in media forums as high quality. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
I forgot to mention how fragile that recorded surface of a CD or DVD can be. Just a little tape on the painted surface can ruin it. I got a DVD once that had been taped to a sheet of paper, and when I peeled off the tape, that part of the upper layer of the disc came off with it. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
I think digital will be around for a long time (possibly forever) so this is another good reason for a external HD. On Jan 5, 5:16 pm, aussieshepsrock ilovaussiesh...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Miko, I happen to personally 'like' your DNG suggestion and am a genuine devotee of RAW files and actively shoot and store them! However, the archive I am creating is NOT an archive for ME or being created for MY use. It's being created for two equally important 'future' relatives - Someone who is looking for pictures of relatives AND someone (like me) who wants great image files to do beautiful things with. The 'Image Archive Industry' relies on the 100% NON-Proprietary nature of TIFF so it's 'future' isn't tied to ANY corporation or group of corporations AND the nature of the file format itself is designed for storing lots of information in the headers (in my case an excellent parking space for my 'exif type info/names,dates,titles). Further benefits come from the fact Any Tiff file is openable many decades from now because even if it falls into total disuse 'generally' all it takes is a programmer to write a program to read the info and retrieve the image in the file. This is a seperate question from the current 'media' choice for storing the group of image files I'm grappling with. No matter how wonderful your raw/dng file suggestion is, it's trumped by the 'benefits' TIFF brings to my specific situation. In my own personal archive I see the incredible merits of DNG when it comes to my personal image making. Sorry Miko, The purpose of my project disqualifies your suggestion for reasons seperate to what makes dng raw so wonderful. I dearly hope that 5-10 years from now DNG has the status of TIFF. LONG LIVE ADOBE - LONG LIVE PHOTOSHOP! Richard On Jan 5, 6:22 pm, MIKO .. miko.supp...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Sam Macomber wrote: At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, I don't see many calls for images older than that, even than with images more than 2-3 years old i only get a request maybe once a year ... I can see that for stock images, but for art images that develop some clout, a good print could be requested at any time. I'd love it if there was a 50 megapixel dng out there of Ansel Adams' Moonrise! or Half Dome- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 6, 2009, at 10:38 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: Hello All! Original Poster Here. Looks like I've kicked up a diverse conversation here. I think I've gleaned a great deal of thoughts from what's been discussed and I'll check on the NIST info soon. I want to comment on the RAW image file discussions. It occurs to me that the proper way to think of a camera's RAW file is to consider it a 'piece of undeveloped film'. The conversion and manipulation of a RAW file into a TIFF or JPEG is incredibly analagous to the astonishing ways Film can be manipulated to change the outcome of it's development into a finished Slide or Negative. Let along the changes one can introduce when taking that slide or negative to the print stage. I personally would NEVER consider an Undeveloped Piece Of Film to be ARCHIVAL. Currently, I don't see how RAW in it's current technological status can be considered ARCHIVAL. There is to much proprietary, licensed, and secret(?) tied up in how Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, etc have things structured. Maybe ADOBE can give DNG to the Library Of Congress as a repository of profiles and processes and such. How are all these zillions of important images be stored for posterity let alone people's family snapshots and memories??? Richard I should note I was just talking about digital camera files being best in RAW format...In your situation, TIFF is certanly the way to go. Since most consumer or even prosumer scanners and software already interpolate the raw sensor data into TIFF format (there are some that generate RAW type file, though the cost of such machines is quite high) So converting those TIFF images into DNG would be a waste. If you can, scan and create a 16bit/pixel TIFF. -sam --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 7, 2009, at 7:30 AM, Sam Macomber wrote: Since most consumer or even prosumer scanners and software already interpolate the raw sensor data into TIFF format (there are some that generate RAW type file, though the cost of such machines is quite high) ViewScan will save the raw CCD output. http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc14.htm#topic11 This works with any scanner VueScan supports which is a rather gargantuan list. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 6, 2009, at 7:36 PM, Vic wrote: PDF, JPG and other formats, while they might be de facto standards, are still proprietary formats, PDF is an open ISO standard, no longer controlled by Adobe; although Adobe PDF's can have proprietary parts, the pdf created by, say printing to PDF in OS X is not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/A JPEG is also an ISO standard, and open source implementations exist. http://www.jpeg.org/jpeg/index.html Probably the largest and most important contribution however was the work of the Independent JPEG Group (IJG), and Tom Lane in particular. Their Open Source software implementation, as well as being one of the major Open Source packages was key to the success of the JPEG standard and was incorporated by many companies into a variety of products such as image editors and Internet browsers. TIFF is recommended as the best, not because it's an open standard, but because it's about the only widely used lossless image standard. JPEG is lossy. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:34 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Jan 7, 2009, at 7:30 AM, Sam Macomber wrote: Since most consumer or even prosumer scanners and software already interpolate the raw sensor data into TIFF format (there are some that generate RAW type file, though the cost of such machines is quite high) ViewScan will save the raw CCD output. http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc14.htm#topic11 This works with any scanner VueScan supports which is a rather gargantuan list. ah, sweet!only ones I'd seen in the past were things like the imacon flextight, drum scanners, etc. last time I bought a scanner was 7 years ago though :) (Epson that still serves what little use I have for it quite well) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 8:36 AM -0700 1/7/2009, Bruce Johnson wrote: JPEG is also an ISO standard, and open source implementations exist. But apparently it's not a fully free public standard? You have to pay the licensing fee for JPEG2000. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Dan wrote: At 8:36 AM -0700 1/7/2009, Bruce Johnson wrote: JPEG is also an ISO standard, and open source implementations exist. But apparently it's not a fully free public standard? You have to pay the licensing fee for JPEG2000. JPEG != JPEG2000 Per the JPEG group JPEG2K is licensed, but the license is available free of charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000 http://www.jpeg.org in particular this page http://tinyurl.com/ ypsh8e which talks both about licensing and patent issues. Also this is an official statement by the JPEG on JPEG 2000 part 1 (the basic format): Part 1 also includes guidelines and examples, a bibliography of technical references, and a list of companies from whom patent statements have been received by ISO. JPEG 2000 was developed with the intention that Part 1 could be implemented without the payment of licence fees or royalties, and a number of patent holders have waived their rights toward this end. However, the JPEG committee cannot make a formal guarantee, and it remains the responsibility of the implementer to ensure that no patents are infringed. Basically the techniques used may have patents. Bilski, however, really makes these sorts of patents iffy, at best. http://tinyurl.com/6rygvc -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On 6/1/09 16:35, Sam Macomber s...@macomber.com wrote: RAW format is all the information captured by the camera's sensor in an unaltered state(though sometimes lossless compression is used, depends on the camera). To generate a TIFF that sensor data has to be altered and when you do so information is lost. Raw data from the sensor is in the form of electron counts from each pixel of the array. Each pixel is further divided into cells - usually four - which are filtered to be sensitive to the red, green and blue areas of the visual spectrum - one red, two green and one blue in the vast majority of digi capture - though Kodak tried one red, one blue and six green in the early days http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9306cs.html Conversion to tiff or any other format on import into an image editor will not affect the raw data unless the original is destroyed after conversion. Unfortunately sensor data is not the only form of image data called 'raw' - some proprietary systems use the term 'raw' very loosely for uncalibrated binary data - hence the compression. For archiving images I use the Fuji CD-R printable Inkjet Black UV Pro which is recommended for the purpose http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/recmedia/site/product/product.asp?pid=145 not easy to get hold of and not cheap but a pod of one hundred goes a very long way. Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Original Poster here.. This jpeg vs tiff question is pretty important to me. My personal experience with jpegs is that the inherent nature of how the compression it uses works, very little quantities of data loss equate with the Functional Loss of the image. My limited knowledge of the 'nature' of TIFF is that (to some extent) it is more resistant to losing the entire image if data describing specific pixels is lost or compromised. Does anyone know if this is correct? A further question I have is that the TIFF 'standards' site I was looking at indicates that a previously 'patented' compression option inside of TIFF -I believe the LZW option- was transfered to the public domain -or something similar- so it is considered an open standard that Archive and Library folks and companies are more comfortable using it. My question is whether the LossLess Internal File Compression option makes the individual files be more at risk in the presence of 'partial' file loss? :-) Richard On Jan 7, 2:18 pm, Doug McNutt dougl...@macnauchtan.com wrote: At 13:12 -0500 1/7/09, Dan wrote: At 8:36 AM -0700 1/7/2009, Bruce Johnson wrote: JPEG is also an ISO standard, and open source implementations exist. But apparently it's not a fully free public standard? You have to pay the licensing fee for JPEG2000. JPEG 2000 has an option for 12 bit resolution which might be important to purists who are into perfect rendition of real film. DICOM, the open format for medical graphics is also available though it is intrinsically monochrome - like an X-ray. Color information can be included by making linked red, blue, and green files. The medical folks are slowly moving toward JPEG 2000. I should hope that they also care about images at least a lifetime old. And while I'm at it, RAW formats are uncompressed representations of pixel values. Specifying the format is little more than providing the bit-length of a pixel, (8, 12, 24, 32,. . .) and the number of pixels that are in one complete scan line. A file of that sort would be far easier to figure out, next century on Mars, than the discrete 16x16 two-dimensional cosine transforms of a JPEG. -- -- From the U S of A, the only socialist country that refuses to admit it. -- --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 7, 2009, at 4:00 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: A further question I have is that the TIFF 'standards' site I was looking at indicates that a previously 'patented' compression option inside of TIFF -I believe the LZW option- was transfered to the public domain -or something similar- The patent on LZW compression simply expired, so it's now freely usable. http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/lzw/ GIFS can run free now... -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Howdy, On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 08:36 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Jan 6, 2009, at 7:36 PM, Vic wrote: PDF, JPG and other formats, while they might be de facto standards, are still proprietary formats, PDF is an open ISO standard, no longer controlled by Adobe; although Adobe PDF's can have proprietary parts, the pdf created by, say printing to PDF in OS X is not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/A This is partially true. Read the wikipedia page for some details. There is an ISO standard for PDF files. Not all pdf writers will write that format. I don't know if the current OSX will. I am not updated to the current version. My OSX system does not write ISO compliant files. JPEG is also an ISO standard, and open source implementations exist. http://www.jpeg.org/jpeg/index.html JPEG is an open standard, but not every program that writes jpegs will write fully compliant jpeg files. If long term archival of files is important to you, check that the program you use is a good implementation. Jpeg is likely to be supported for many years, but you have to decide if the images are good enough quality. ... TIFF is recommended as the best, not because it's an open standard, but because it's about the only widely used lossless image standard. JPEG is lossy. There are lots of varieties of TIFF files. It and PNG are the most common lossless formats available. I prefer PNG for most of my usage, because the compression algorithm in TIFF files is patent encumbered, which limits some program's abilities to handle TIFF files with compression. For simplicity, I can see how it might be a better choice for some people to stay with TIFF files. Before you embark on a major archival effort using TIFF files, find out what type of TIFF files you are going to write and be consistent so your entire library will always be readable by the same program. Good luck, Ralph --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
HiYa Pete, thanks for the tip on the 'Black' Fuji media. My only 'techie' relative mentioned these to me over the weekend. He's been a mac disciple since the begining having bought like the third one sold here in Michigan way back when. He's a programmer, engineer, optics, physics, etc etc etc expert currently doing his interdisciplinary thing managing multiple projects at an aerospace company. He used some of these Discs to send pictures and videos to his daughter across the country, but during a visit carrying his shiny new MacBook Pro he discovered their 'blackness' tripped up his drive. He said it was a laser disperion problem - the discs read perfectly in his wife's older ibook and his daughters pc's but choked in his MacBook. As incredibly wonderful these UV and Light defending discs are, they might be a little to exotically engineered for my particular application. I also intend for these discs to be in light tight storage anyway and the benefits derived from the 'engineered sunscreen' the black fuji's aren't really needed. Has anyone heard of Taiyo Yuden the japanese cdr dvdr media manufacturer? I am bumping into postings, pages, and vendors, hailing their discs as being the definite first choice for burning with. The postings are religiously devoted and the ancedotes widely expressed by buyers and audiophiles and such emphatically describe clean, consistent, and accurate burned discs. They also describe consistently NOT burning coasters when using the taiyo yuden media. Richard On Jan 7, 3:27 pm, pdimage pdim...@btinternet.com wrote: On 6/1/09 16:35, Sam Macomber s...@macomber.com wrote: RAW format is all the information captured by the camera's sensor in an unaltered state(though sometimes lossless compression is used, depends on the camera). To generate a TIFF that sensor data has to be altered and when you do so information is lost. Raw data from the sensor is in the form of electron counts from each pixel of the array. Each pixel is further divided into cells - usually four - which are filtered to be sensitive to the red, green and blue areas of the visual spectrum - one red, two green and one blue in the vast majority of digi capture - though Kodak tried one red, one blue and six green in the early days http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9306cs.html Conversion to tiff or any other format on import into an image editor will not affect the raw data unless the original is destroyed after conversion. Unfortunately sensor data is not the only form of image data called 'raw' - some proprietary systems use the term 'raw' very loosely for uncalibrated binary data - hence the compression. For archiving images I use the Fuji CD-R printable Inkjet Black UV Pro which is recommended for the purpose http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/recmedia/site/product/product.asp?pid=145 not easy to get hold of and not cheap but a pod of one hundred goes a very long way. Pete --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 21:13 -0800, aussieshepsrock wrote: Has anyone heard of Taiyo Yuden the japanese cdr dvdr media manufacturer? Taiyo Yuden is generally considered to be the best producer of media out there. They are rarely the cheapest. At one time, Taiyo Yuden manufactured the premium Fuji disks. I don't know if they still do. The key to the stability of the Taiyo Yuden disk seems to be their consistency in their dye formulation. It is usually the fading dyes of CDR and DVDR disk that cause them to become unreadable. If you want a good deal on Taiyo Yuden, look in the stores for Fuji disks manufactured in Japan. Those all seem to be Taiyo Yuden disks. Skip the ones made in other countries. Good luck, Ralph --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
I agree but use an archival storage box, acid free I shoot mostly 35mm and 120 film and use the digital for stuff that doesn't matter. I recently lost my wife and I am glad that my photos of her are mostly archived. I display copies that were digitized but the photos themselves are kept safe along with the negatives. Kirk He who has honor need not fear death. Eva Marie LeGrand Morrison 5/24/1958-6/26/2008 My beloved wife, and my best friend, I miss you Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:25:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Where do I learn becomes archiving files and images- the future From: tba...@nmia.com To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Well, for the ultimate in archivalness (is that a word?), to preserve things for future generations of your family, do what I plan to do: get rid of both magnetic and optical storage. Back to basics here. Sure, we all shoot digital now, but we don't have to store that way. Print out your most important digital images at high resolution on archival paper, using long-lasting pigmented inks, and then keep these prints in an album, dry, clean, and out of light, except when you look at them. They ought to last a generation or two that way (Epson says 200 years, at least). And then, to really save them for the ages, use a copy stand to shoot those prints with a camera that uses film, and the best film for the purpose is black and white. The black and white negatives will last practically forever, and any silver-based prints made from them (in an old-fashioned chemical darkroom, like I have) would last as long as the paper, which can also be centuries. In other words, get your important pictures out of the electronic devices altogether, and back into the shoebox, alongside Grandma's. All the future generations have to do then is pick them up and hold them in their hand, and look at them. Eyeballs never become obsolete. _ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 10:34 PM -0500 1/5/2009, insightinmind wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Dan wrote: From a pro perspective image quality of a TIFF is not good enough, RAW is much better. Never heard that before. In what way is TIFF lacking? I've always heard if you convert an image from one format into another, you probably lose something (loosely (not lossless) speaking). That's true to a point. Isn't RAW a first format for some cameras, so TIFF would be a first conversion? Is that where people might suspect loss of quality? The camera takes the CCD data, adjusts it, and converts it to ... something that the user can download. Whatever format you select in the camera is what it converts it to - RAW, TIFF, JPG, etc. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Dan wrote: At 5:42 PM -0500 1/5/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Dan wrote: At 1:55 PM -0800 1/5/2009, MIKO .. wrote: The photo industry believes that the highest quality version of an image is its RAW version, when available. Each company has its own variant of RAW. There will be no standard any time soon. TIFF is better. From a pro perspective image quality of a TIFF is not good enough, RAW is much better. Never heard that before. In what way is TIFF lacking? RAW format is all the information captured by the camera's sensor in an unaltered state(though sometimes lossless compression is used, depends on the camera). To generate a TIFF that sensor data has to be altered and when you do so information is lost. At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, DNG still bothers me a bit. It's an Adobe format, a container for their particular variant of RAW, based on TIFF. I don't trust Adobe much. Part of the reason we have not yet started to convert to DNG, I love the format but you are right all the eggs in one basket. of course we're still tied to the camera maker's format by not converting to DNG...What I'd love to see is something like DNG but totally open for any company to use, I feel it is leaning that way, but slowly. Hassleblad digital backs support DNG and Sinar is working in that direction as well... or so they say. Leaf(now owned by Kodak) works with adobe to keep their digital back compatible with CameraRAW But yeah, this is a problem and a fairly big one... --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 11:35 AM -0500 1/6/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Dan wrote: At 5:42 PM -0500 1/5/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: From a pro perspective image quality of a TIFF is not good enough, RAW is much better. Never heard that before. In what way is TIFF lacking? RAW format is all the information captured by the camera's sensor in an unaltered state(though sometimes lossless compression is used, depends on the camera). To generate a TIFF that sensor data has to be altered and when you do so information is lost. Ok. Been reading up on raw... It's interesting,,, and complicated. The direct CCD data (raw) is unusable unless you have a profile containing the necessary metrics, regarding that particular camera's ccd performance. Said profile is sometimes included in the metadata buried within the raw file, but not always. IOW, iffa you no gots that profile, the raw data is all but useless. My take: Like color profiles for printers and displays, this is a nightmare waiting to happen. We're going to have to have libraries of thousands of these profiles - just to hope to be able to handle a random raw image. The advantage of the raw data is that it hasn't had its range clipped yet; its still up to 14 bits per pixel (jpeg clips to 8 bits after gamma correction). That's good - if you can process it correctly. Bad - if you cannot process it fully - it leaves you with extra white noise. Most RAW file formats (note the caps now) are undocumented (trying to not say proprietary) extensions of TIFF 6.0. (DNG is also an extension to TIFF 6.0). ...This is kindof like what people are doing to MPEG-4, to create things like DivX and Xvid. LOL - a gotcha to be aware of - many cameras use a *lossy* compression on RAW by default. I'd venture anyone serious about wanting RAW needs to turn that off! In four diff places, I've now read comments to the affect that because RAW is a non-standard, it is NOT appropriate for long-term / archival storage use. They recommend TIFF or JPEG with a lossless or zero compression. I can see why RAW is good for a professional photographer's use in the short term. But all the above, taken together, makes me think this is a format that's not useful for archival / long-term use. For said archive, I guess it can't hurt to keep the RAW file, and the profile, as long as you *also* do a TIFF or something. At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, DNG still bothers me a bit. It's an Adobe format, a container for their particular variant of RAW, based on TIFF. I don't trust Adobe much. Part of the reason we have not yet started to convert to DNG, I love the format but you are right all the eggs in one basket. heh. Just ran across some old PDF files that I cannot seem to open anymore. Preview gives an empty window. Adobe Reader crashes. Tried full Acrobat on XP - it blue screens. That's a good example of how Adobe formats work - even the open ones. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Dan wrote: At 11:35 AM -0500 1/6/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:20 PM, Dan wrote: At 5:42 PM -0500 1/5/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: From a pro perspective image quality of a TIFF is not good enough, RAW is much better. Never heard that before. In what way is TIFF lacking? RAW format is all the information captured by the camera's sensor in an unaltered state(though sometimes lossless compression is used, depends on the camera). To generate a TIFF that sensor data has to be altered and when you do so information is lost. Ok. Been reading up on raw... It's interesting,,, and complicated. The direct CCD data (raw) is unusable unless you have a profile containing the necessary metrics, regarding that particular camera's ccd performance. Said profile is sometimes included in the metadata buried within the raw file, but not always. IOW, iffa you no gots that profile, the raw data is all but useless. My take: Like color profiles for printers and displays, this is a nightmare waiting to happen. We're going to have to have libraries of thousands of these profiles - just to hope to be able to handle a random raw image. another RAW advantage, it's NOT tagged and manipulated to any one particular color profile ;) The advantage of the raw data is that it hasn't had its range clipped yet; its still up to 14 bits per pixel (jpeg clips to 8 bits after gamma correction). That's good - if you can process it correctly. Bad - if you cannot process it fully - it leaves you with extra white noise. Most RAW file formats (note the caps now) are undocumented (trying to not say proprietary) extensions of TIFF 6.0. (DNG is also an extension to TIFF 6.0). ...This is kindof like what people are doing to MPEG-4, to create things like DivX and Xvid. LOL - a gotcha to be aware of - many cameras use a *lossy* compression on RAW by default. I'd venture anyone serious about wanting RAW needs to turn that off! In four diff places, I've now read comments to the affect that because RAW is a non-standard, it is NOT appropriate for long-term / archival storage use. They recommend TIFF or JPEG with a lossless or zero compression. I can see why RAW is good for a professional photographer's use in the short term. But all the above, taken together, makes me think this is a format that's not useful for archival / long-term use. For said archive, I guess it can't hurt to keep the RAW file, and the profile, as long as you *also* do a TIFF or something. You explained that much better than i could have. :) At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, DNG still bothers me a bit. It's an Adobe format, a container for their particular variant of RAW, based on TIFF. I don't trust Adobe much. Part of the reason we have not yet started to convert to DNG, I love the format but you are right all the eggs in one basket. heh. Just ran across some old PDF files that I cannot seem to open anymore. Preview gives an empty window. Adobe Reader crashes. Tried full Acrobat on XP - it blue screens. That's a good example of how Adobe formats work - even the open ones. oh what fun! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 1:13 PM -0500 1/6/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Dan wrote: The direct CCD data (raw) is unusable unless you have a profile containing the necessary metrics, regarding that particular camera's ccd performance. Said profile is sometimes included in the metadata buried within the raw file, but not always. IOW, iffa you no gots that profile, the raw data is all but useless. My take: Like color profiles for printers and displays, this is a nightmare waiting to happen. We're going to have to have libraries of thousands of these profiles - just to hope to be able to handle a random raw image. another RAW advantage, it's NOT tagged and manipulated to any one particular color profile ;) But the profile is all about the response of that particular camera's CCD array. To use the data, you have to first apply that profile. You can then tweak it from there... hum. Are you saying that there are times when you wouldn't want to use that camera's profile at all? I don't trust Adobe much. Part of the reason we have not yet started to convert to DNG, I love the format but you are right all the eggs in one basket. heh. Just ran across some old PDF files that I cannot seem to open anymore. Preview gives an empty window. Adobe Reader crashes. Tried full Acrobat on XP - it blue screens. That's a good example of how Adobe formats work - even the open ones. oh what fun! yea. We have now found that Acrobat 4, from 1999, is able to view the docs. Working on exporting the data now. Worst case is that we can print 'em, then rescan. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. So I just make many copies of my edited videos, burning them slowly (1X) in case that does it any better, distribute them widely among relatives, and then plan on continually copying them onto newer media as time goes by. When I'm gone, I would hope that anyone in the family who cares about these videos would continue such preservation efforts. Actually, it's probably the non-family comedy or instructional videos I've done for YouTube that will last the longest, since it's easy to download such videos, and interested people are no doubt doing that onto their hard drives all over the world. The quality stinks, but they'll probably live forever in the public domain. It's somewhat discouraging to think that if my family videos are lost to future generations of my family, they may only know me through these YouTube videos, as I crash into walls while riding a belt sander or as a slightly loopy art instructor (see http://tinyurl.com/7l767w and http://tinyurl.com/8wotmd). The person who said that it's bad to pen notes on the back of printed photos is correct. Use pencil, pressing very lightly. I once took a museum management class in which I was told that one of the best way to preserve artifacts is in brown paper bags or cardboard boxes with identification written on them in number 2 pencil. I was told of a museum whose basement, where they stored tons of stuff, was flooded, and after everything dried out the only readable records were the ones penciled, not penned, on the bags, boxes, or tags. Anything written in pen had smeared and was unreadable, whereas the penciled notes, after drying out, were just fine. Tom --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Tom tba...@nmia.com wrote: It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. In extreme terms you can print the video. Photoshop has the ability to take a video file and break it into individual frames. Saving according to your preset. At 30 fps the folders would of course, become massive. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 11:04 AM -0800 1/6/2009, Tom wrote: It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. And in the process of authoring the DVD-Video, they're also highly lossy compressed. So I just make many copies of my edited videos, burning them slowly (1X) in case that does it any better, distribute them widely among relatives, and then plan on continually copying them onto newer media as time goes by. When I'm gone, I would hope that anyone in the family who cares about these videos would continue such preservation efforts. Keep also the version *before* that final compression. That way, when future DVD formats come out, eg: Blu-Ray, you can re-author the disc with less or maybe even no compression. Just out of curiosity, how big are those pre-compression files? Are you doing this in 1080 or higher? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Tom wrote: It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. Another solution is to use your DV camera as a recorder...feed the finished project back out of iMovie or FCP/E to a tape in the camera, and store that away as well. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Hi Everyone, This subject has been a lot of fun to follow, I read every response ! I do have some info for those who are using DVD's. Check out these two sites. http://best-blank-dvd-review.gorungoreviews.com www.supermediastore.com for Taiyo Yuden DVD's I realize this is not the full answer but some help. It looks like these are good for a long time (100 years). I am in no way connected to this site or Co. Wm. Arnold ( Mac's Forever ) --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: From: Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu Subject: Re: Where do I learn becomes archiving files and images- the future To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 4:38 PM On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Tom wrote: It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. Another solution is to use your DV camera as a recorder...feed the finished project back out of iMovie or FCP/E to a tape in the camera, and store that away as well. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
and they say NOTHING about other brands tested... to me that just says 'hey, we think this is the best, look it burns at the fully rated speed on our DVD burner yipee!' a few years back i read a review that showed ALL their test data, it was an insane amount of information (wish i remember the site, but it was quite a while ago) In any case that one found Ritek G05 disks to be the best... I've been using those, burned about 1,200 of them at this point, nothing bad to report. I did have a streak of coasters, but that turned out to be a failing DVD recorder. -sam Hi Everyone, This subject has been a lot of fun to follow, I read every response ! I do have some info for those who are using DVD's. Check out these two sites. http://best-blank-dvd-review.gorungoreviews.com www.supermediastore.com for Taiyo Yuden DVD's I realize this is not the full answer but some help. It looks like these are good for a long time (100 years). I am in no way connected to this site or Co. Wm. Arnold ( Mac's Forever ) --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: From: Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu Subject: Re: Where do I learn becomes archiving files and images- the future To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 4:38 PM On Jan 6, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Tom wrote: It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. Another solution is to use your DV camera as a recorder...feed the finished project back out of iMovie or FCP/E to a tape in the camera, and store that away as well. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 2:14 PM -0800 1/6/2009, Wm. Arnold wrote: http://best-blank-dvd-review.gorungoreviews.com for Taiyo Yuden DVD's That review notwithstanding, TY media is excellent. I've been buying 'em in bulk for quite a while now. Can offer some thru LEM Swap if there's desire. Taiyo Yuden is one of the more behind the scenes type companies, that's had paws in our lives for decades without us knowing much about them. A good write up on them be here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyo_Yuden - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 6, 12:22 pm, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of curiosity, how big are those pre-compression files? Are you doing this in 1080 or higher? - Dan. How big are these movies, these video files? Well, a manual I have here on Final Cut says: the DV video that you work with in Final Cut features 5X compression, meaning that a DV clip uses 1/5 the data that raw, uncompressed video would. The format is listed as DV-NTSC: each frame is 720 X 480 pixels, and they play at about 30 frames per second. My latest family movie, 17 minutes long, exported from Final Cut, is listed in the Finder as 832 MB. iDVD created a disk image of it that is 956 MB. To create the actual DVD, I drop that disk image into Toast and burn it to a DVD-R. I can also export the finished video from Final Cut directly back to the video camera. The camera can then record it onto a blank mini-DV tape. So I have two ways to archive a finished movie project: DVD-R and mini-DV tape. I don't know which is more archival (longer lasting), but I would guess the tape. But I'll archive my movies onto both. For a comparison of visual quality, I have 8mm film movies that my father took of my brothers and I when we were little kids, back in the 1950s and 60s. They're pretty grainy, and the colors are fading. I think my digital videos, despite the DV compression, look better than his movies on film--certainly sharp enough to trigger the memories of family events that they are intended to evoke. Those video images, and the associated recorded sounds, bring old memories back to life quite effectively. Anybody with a Mac capable of using iMovie should be aware that you can plug a DV camera into your Mac (with a FireWire cable) and easily create movies. iMovie takes control of your camera for import, and then you can edit the imported video in iMovie, and afterward export it to iDVD to burn it to a disk. The ease of doing this is a revelation for some people--it sure was to me a few years ago, when I first tried it. Just make sure you buy a video camera that has a FireWire port, so you can connect it to your Mac. Tom --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 6, 10:42 am, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: heh. Just ran across some old PDF files that I cannot seem to open anymore. Preview gives an empty window. Adobe Reader crashes. Tried full Acrobat on XP - it blue screens. That's a good example of how Adobe formats work - even the open ones. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth This is a perfect illustration of why you don't want to use a proprietary format for archival storage. The future of the format remains in the hands of the owner, who can change it as they see fit. PDF, JPG and other formats, while they might be de facto standards, are still proprietary formats, and may not exist at all in a few years. TIFF is still the recommended solution. http://www.bcr.org/cdp/best/digital-imaging-bp.pdf This guide addresses all aspects of long-term archival best practices for visual documents. This was developed in collaboration with the Library of Congress and OCLC/Dublin Core. There may be many opinions as to how this sort of project should be undertaken, but the research has already been done, and the guidelines established. Good luck! V Mabus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Hello All! Original Poster Here. Looks like I've kicked up a diverse conversation here. I think I've gleaned a great deal of thoughts from what's been discussed and I'll check on the NIST info soon. I want to comment on the RAW image file discussions. It occurs to me that the proper way to think of a camera's RAW file is to consider it a 'piece of undeveloped film'. The conversion and manipulation of a RAW file into a TIFF or JPEG is incredibly analagous to the astonishing ways Film can be manipulated to change the outcome of it's development into a finished Slide or Negative. Let along the changes one can introduce when taking that slide or negative to the print stage. I personally would NEVER consider an Undeveloped Piece Of Film to be ARCHIVAL. Currently, I don't see how RAW in it's current technological status can be considered ARCHIVAL. There is to much proprietary, licensed, and secret(?) tied up in how Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, etc have things structured. Maybe ADOBE can give DNG to the Library Of Congress as a repository of profiles and processes and such. How are all these zillions of important images be stored for posterity let alone people's family snapshots and memories??? Richard On Jan 6, 2:22 pm, Dan dantear...@gmail.com wrote: At 11:04 AM -0800 1/6/2009, Tom wrote: It's not preserving the still images that bothers me so much as the video---video of our little kids who have grown up or adults who are no longer with us. I can print out still images and preserve them in various ways, but there is no printing out video to save it; it's on disks or tape in order to exist at all. My video is shot on mini-DV, fed into my Mac through a firewire cable, edited in Final Cut, and burned to DVD. These edited videos have titles, captions, and brevity through cuts of unnecessary footage that make it watchable, unlike the raw tapes. And in the process of authoring the DVD-Video, they're also highly lossy compressed. So I just make many copies of my edited videos, burning them slowly (1X) in case that does it any better, distribute them widely among relatives, and then plan on continually copying them onto newer media as time goes by. When I'm gone, I would hope that anyone in the family who cares about these videos would continue such preservation efforts. Keep also the version *before* that final compression. That way, when future DVD formats come out, eg: Blu-Ray, you can re-author the disc with less or maybe even no compression. Just out of curiosity, how big are those pre-compression files? Are you doing this in 1080 or higher? - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Regarding the format of your archived photos: The photo industry believes that the highest quality version of an image is its RAW version, when available. The address this, and a global standard, the DNG format has been evolving and DNG format with the original RAW image embedded along the DNG conversion is supposedly going to be the most standard way of archiving images for the long term. I don't recommend CDs or DVDs because none seem high enough quality for me. If you were to go that route and wanted future compatibility, wouldn't you go with Blu-Ray? No physical media type (like CD-R) is going to remain in existence forever, but if you're concerned you should maybe store your images on SOLID STATE drives since they are probably the wave of the future... Maybe if you wait until the end of this year there will be a good sized solid-state drive out there. Toshiba is launching a 512gb solid state drive: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10125861-64.html Also, a drive used for archiving should be used and then set aside in a nice safe clean cool dry place and not used much- it will live more years that way. Acknowledge that even if a drive type does not become obsolete, its connector might- Apple is one of those impatient instigators of hardware upgrades and so they are killing FW400 and eventually there will be no FW800 nor USB 2.0. Hopefully the ISO/OSI Int'l standards people are thinking about a permanently backwards compatible connector type- if one develops to will probably be closer to USB or Sata I think, or FDDI, and not Firewire, since business/pc users aren't the biggest users of firewire (though Hollywood and Pixar may be big users, I don't know)... HOWEVER- My guess is that CABLES are going to finally become more obsolete because I'm seeing camera card flash-type drives with built in static wi-fi! See Eye-fi: http://www.eye.fi/ Get a storage medium that will have multiple ways to connect to over devices (or share with other devices) or will remain compatible with future enclosures or standards. I see wifi/wireless large-storage solid state drives as coming along very soon... I always store important files in two different ways, at least, to ensure useability of one over another. Another good idea is to always keep a computer around that will open the files you have now- if your current computer becomes obsolete instead of dying, store in in a clean cool dry place with keyboard and monitor and maybe it'll be there for you when you need to read a disk in 2025 that you made today. Peace, MIKO Miko's Support and Design in Seattle, WA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 1:55 PM -0800 1/5/2009, MIKO .. wrote: The photo industry believes that the highest quality version of an image is its RAW version, when available. Each company has its own variant of RAW. There will be no standard any time soon. TIFF is better. No physical media type (like CD-R) is going to remain in existence forever, but if you're concerned you should maybe store your images on SOLID STATE drives since they are probably the wave of the future... Maybe SSD will improve SOMEDAY to becoming a long-term storage solution, but for now the error rate is far too high. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Dan wrote: At 1:55 PM -0800 1/5/2009, MIKO .. wrote: The photo industry believes that the highest quality version of an image is its RAW version, when available. Each company has its own variant of RAW. There will be no standard any time soon. TIFF is better. From a pro perspective image quality of a TIFF is not good enough, RAW is much better. But yes, lack of standardization is a HUGE PITA!Particularly on very early digital images, stuff we've got from the mid 90's requires us to keep an old G3 in mothballs just incase.Shots with the older systems we're phasing out now are iffy.But the calls I get when pulling images from our archives usually require resizing, color adjustments made 10-15 years ago to the file are usually totally wrong (monitors, calibrators, etc have come a LONG way) etc that give MUCH better results from the RAW file rather than a TIFF. At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, I don't see many calls for images older than that, even than with images more than 2-3 years old i only get a request maybe once a year ... -sam --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 5, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Sam Macomber wrote: Each company has its own variant of RAW. There will be no standard any time soon. TIFF is better. Whoever wrote this is a bit rude. Yes of course I know that every form on RAW is different, which is EXACTLY why you convert it to DNG and embed the original RAW. The DNG is the standard. Do I have to state every obvious thing to not get a weird comment about it when I'm trying to help? I state what's necessary to convey the information. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 5, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Sam Macomber wrote: At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, I don't see many calls for images older than that, even than with images more than 2-3 years old i only get a request maybe once a year ... I can see that for stock images, but for art images that develop some clout, a good print could be requested at any time. I'd love it if there was a 50 megapixel dng out there of Ansel Adams' Moonrise! or Half Dome --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Hi Miko, I happen to personally 'like' your DNG suggestion and am a genuine devotee of RAW files and actively shoot and store them! However, the archive I am creating is NOT an archive for ME or being created for MY use. It's being created for two equally important 'future' relatives - Someone who is looking for pictures of relatives AND someone (like me) who wants great image files to do beautiful things with. The 'Image Archive Industry' relies on the 100% NON-Proprietary nature of TIFF so it's 'future' isn't tied to ANY corporation or group of corporations AND the nature of the file format itself is designed for storing lots of information in the headers (in my case an excellent parking space for my 'exif type info/names,dates,titles). Further benefits come from the fact Any Tiff file is openable many decades from now because even if it falls into total disuse 'generally' all it takes is a programmer to write a program to read the info and retrieve the image in the file. This is a seperate question from the current 'media' choice for storing the group of image files I'm grappling with. No matter how wonderful your raw/dng file suggestion is, it's trumped by the 'benefits' TIFF brings to my specific situation. In my own personal archive I see the incredible merits of DNG when it comes to my personal image making. Sorry Miko, The purpose of my project disqualifies your suggestion for reasons seperate to what makes dng raw so wonderful. I dearly hope that 5-10 years from now DNG has the status of TIFF. LONG LIVE ADOBE - LONG LIVE PHOTOSHOP! Richard On Jan 5, 6:22 pm, MIKO .. miko.supp...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 2:42 PM, Sam Macomber wrote: At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, I don't see many calls for images older than that, even than with images more than 2-3 years old i only get a request maybe once a year ... I can see that for stock images, but for art images that develop some clout, a good print could be requested at any time. I'd love it if there was a 50 megapixel dng out there of Ansel Adams' Moonrise! or Half Dome --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:16 PM, aussieshepsrock wrote: Sorry Miko, The purpose of my project disqualifies your suggestion for reasons seperate to what makes dng raw so wonderful. I dearly hope that 5-10 years from now DNG has the status of TIFF. LONG LIVE ADOBE - LONG LIVE PHOTOSHOP! No need to be sorry- I was being a purist, as a photographer. But when you provide further information, I'm fine with the TIFF for your purposes. Note that saving TIFFs has several options and one of them is compression. If you can afford to not compress, I'd recommend avoiding that. There are also two types of compression- LZW and ZIP- and I'm not certain if one is going to remain more standard than the other, so you might want to look into that. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 5:42 PM -0500 1/5/2009, Sam Macomber wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Dan wrote: At 1:55 PM -0800 1/5/2009, MIKO .. wrote: The photo industry believes that the highest quality version of an image is its RAW version, when available. Each company has its own variant of RAW. There will be no standard any time soon. TIFF is better. From a pro perspective image quality of a TIFF is not good enough, RAW is much better. Never heard that before. In what way is TIFF lacking? At this point with newer systems they're generally all supported by Photoshop CameraRAW and can be converted to DNG. i feel that's reasonably safe since I'm seeling the useful life right around 10 years for an image, DNG still bothers me a bit. It's an Adobe format, a container for their particular variant of RAW, based on TIFF. I don't trust Adobe much. - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
On Jan 5, 2009, at 7:34 PM, insightinmind wrote: I haven't read this entire enormous thread, but has anyone mentioned storing the data files in cyberspace? I definitely wanted to mention this but GUESS WHAT! I HAVE EXPERIENCE! I was storing music files onlinr and then the company suddenly went out of business without announcement and I lost a lot! Also, AOL Pictures DID warn its people this past week but still, millions of people lost images when AOL Pictures shut down on 12/31. SO Online means out of our hands and that makes me scared- I only recommend what I view as safest. If we could LEGALLY bind online storage companies to NEVER losing or deleting our data, I'd recommend cyberspace. But it definitely happens. So YEs, I thought about it, but according to my motto- I only say what people need to know, otherwise it clutters the usefulness of the reply. MIKO in Seattle Miko's Support and Design Services --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
At 9:09 PM -0800 1/5/2009, MIKO .. wrote: On Jan 5, 2009, at 7:34 PM, insightinmind wrote: I haven't read this entire enormous thread, but has anyone mentioned storing the data files in cyberspace? Nothing wrong with keeping a copy of your files up on a remote server somewhere. Apps like iWeb can make very nice albums. I wouldn't depend on the storage tho... I was storing music files onlinr and then the company suddenly went out of business without announcement and I lost a lot! ouch! :( If we could LEGALLY bind online storage companies to NEVER losing or deleting our data, I'd recommend cyberspace. After the off-line backup thread last week, I started perusing the various cloud storage solutions. Not pretty. They all have disclaimers in their TCs. And none are willing to give specifics as to their actual set-up and backup systems. :\ - Dan. -- - Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Where do I learn.... becomes archiving files and images- the future
Well, for the ultimate in archivalness (is that a word?), to preserve things for future generations of your family, do what I plan to do: get rid of both magnetic and optical storage. Back to basics here. Sure, we all shoot digital now, but we don't have to store that way. Print out your most important digital images at high resolution on archival paper, using long-lasting pigmented inks, and then keep these prints in an album, dry, clean, and out of light, except when you look at them. They ought to last a generation or two that way (Epson says 200 years, at least). And then, to really save them for the ages, use a copy stand to shoot those prints with a camera that uses film, and the best film for the purpose is black and white. The black and white negatives will last practically forever, and any silver-based prints made from them (in an old-fashioned chemical darkroom, like I have) would last as long as the paper, which can also be centuries. In other words, get your important pictures out of the electronic devices altogether, and back into the shoebox, alongside Grandma's. All the future generations have to do then is pick them up and hold them in their hand, and look at them. Eyeballs never become obsolete. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
