Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
Original message from smac0031, 2015-05-31 04:34: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's hooked up to a 133ATA card. I have 120GB boot drive and 300GB data drive. The computer just hangs on boot-up. The optical drive does nothing. Starting with the optical empty does nothing. The computer just hangs. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Thanks Mark Murphy Hello Mark! I'm late, I know, but I just found this thread. Maybe I missed it, but nobody mentioned block sizes. Newer drives tend to be Advanced Format, meaning, each sector (physical block) on the drive is not exactly 512 bytes anymore, but a multiple of that. Most HDDs use a block size of 4096 bytes i.e. 4k. The problem is that most older computers, firmwares and operating systems really require this 512 bytes block size. That is why a lot of HDDs with Advanced Format use emulation. Instead of reporting the true block size of 4096, they will report 512, in which case you'd be safe and could use the drive. If, on the other hand, you purchased a drive without emulation, it will report the native block size of 4096. This could have various effects, including stalling the system completely. You should read about Advanced Format on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Format Does your drive have an Advanced 4K Format or an Advanced 4Kn Format logo? The later, with the letter n (4Kn versus just 4K) indicates native mode, which will most likely cause problems. You should get a drive with 512 byte block size emulation, i.e. one with the Advanced 4K Format logo (without n for native – i.e. with an invisible e for emulation ;-)). Cheers, Andreas aka Mac User #330250 -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
Yes, I’m having the same problem with my 2000 Quicksilver w/2001 Processor. Using it Offline with all my financial Data on it. Quicken 207 On May 30, 2015, at 9:34 PM, smac0031 m.smurph...@gmail.com wrote: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's hooked up to a 133ATA card. I have 120GB boot drive and 300GB data drive. The computer just hangs on boot-up. The optical drive does nothing. Starting with the optical empty does nothing. The computer just hangs. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Thanks Mark Murphy -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
I've done more testing. This new drive just sits in the computer dumb and gives no signal that it's there. Neither my DA G4 or my G5 register it. It's nothing. I tried running Drive Genius and it doesn't find anything there. I put the 1TB Seagate in my G4 again and zapped the Pram a couple of times before starting up. This time it came up and I didn't get a Kernel Panic. I was able to copy 280GB of files to it. I'm going to put it back in the G5. This new drive is going back. Thanks, Mark On Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 10:34:16 PM UTC-4, smac0031 wrote: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's hooked up to a 133ATA card. I have 120GB boot drive and 300GB data drive. The computer just hangs on boot-up. The optical drive does nothing. Starting with the optical empty does nothing. The computer just hangs. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Thanks Mark Murphy -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
On Jun 4, 2015, at 6:16 PM, smac0031 m.smurph...@gmail.com wrote: I tried swapping 1TB seagate from my G5 into my DA G4 and the new drive into the G5. The new drive would spin in the G5 and would not come up under Disk Utility. The Seagate came up in the G4 and after about a minute the G4 had a kernel panic. I'm sending the new drive back. Weak link may be the sata pata adapter, but that would not explain why the G5 couldn't see it. Thanks to everybody, I think I'm going to get an intel Mac, one that can play with my iPhone 5c. Mark Murphy Perhaps you’re not swapping hardware “correctly”? When you’re changing hardware, you need to do two things: 1) zap the PRAM so the firmware reinitializes. 2) Safe Boot to ditch the old boot.cache and rebuild the kext.cache so the new kext configuration is present for the subsequent boot. If you don’t at least Safe Boot once, you’re using the old boot.cache kext.cache, so it’s trying to boot with the old hardware configuration. This can often result in panic. I don’t know what type of SATA adapter you’re using, but the best choice is usually a PCI card. Some cards have “special” firmware for some models of G4 that have “known problems”. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
Thanks to everybody, I think I'm going to get an intel Mac ... A very wise choice. Flexibility and reliability of MacOS X improved dramatically after the switch to an Intel platform. 10.4.8 was the more-or-less first instance which supported Intel. Alas, the underlying Intel hardware was somewhat primitive, with most of the function provided off-chip. 10.9.5 is exceptionally reliable, with almost all function provided on-chip. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
I tried swapping 1TB seagate from my G5 into my DA G4 and the new drive into the G5. The new drive would spin in the G5 and would not come up under Disk Utility. The Seagate came up in the G4 and after about a minute the G4 had a kernel panic. I'm sending the new drive back. Weak link may be the sata pata adapter, but that would not explain why the G5 couldn't see it. Thanks to everybody, I think I'm going to get an intel Mac, one that can play with my iPhone 5c. Mark Murphy -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
On Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 9:34:16 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Does the PATA/SATA adapter have a jumper to set Master/Slave? You could be having Master/Slave issues. Jeff Walther -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
Does the PATA/SATA adapter have a jumper to set Master/Slave? You could be having Master/Slave issues. The SATA to PATA (IDE) converter I have does, indeed, have a Master/Slave jumper, but, alas, no position which is explicitly Cable Select. The drives in BW G3 and later machines support Cable Select, and this is the optimal choice for those machines. Alas, the Mini from the same generation DOES NOT support Cable Select ... the caddies are Master (the built-in hard drive, only) OR Slave (the optical drive caddy) ... however, those caddies intended to support a second HD in the place of the optical drive are Master and no jumper is provided for Slave. Installing the caddy, as shipped, into a Mini will result in failure to boot as a consequence of the presence of two Masters. Depending upon the version of hard drive caddy, either soldering a jumper will be required, or a special metric shunt (jumper) will be required. The shunts which were shipped with some 2.5 PATA (IDE) drives is usually the appropriate choice. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
On Jun 1, 2015, at 1:32 PM, t...@prismnet.com wrote: On Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 9:34:16 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Does the PATA/SATA adapter have a jumper to set Master/Slave? You could be having Master/Slave issues. I’m not following this thread closely, so perhaps this isn’t right, but some of the early G4’s lacked LBA48 support for larger HDs in firmware. There was a patch to enable LBA48 support for bigger drives, but I think this was for models prior to the DA? http://4thcode.blogspot.com/2007/12/using-128-gib-or-larger-ata-hard-drives.html -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
I'm not following this thread closely, so perhaps this isn't right, but some of the early G4's lacked LBA48 support for larger HDs in firmware. There was a patch to enable LBA48 support for bigger drives, but I think this was for models prior to the DA? http://4thcode.blogspot.com/2007/12/using-128-gib-or-larger-ata-hard-drives.html That IS the correct hack for LBA48. There was a shorter one posted elsewhere, but the above-cited hack is the one which ALWAYS worked for me. The 1000 MHz Quicksivers supposedly came with the LBA48 property already in O.F. The 800 MHz Quicksilvers DID NOT. The determining factor is the P/N of the Quicksilver MB. -A does not have LBA48; -B does. Any model after an 800 MHz Quicksilver should be assumed to support LBA48 OOTB. One reason for the hack is it is to O.F. itself, so, therefore, it is active at boot-time. The Speedtools alternative only works after the extension has been successfully loaded, so it is not available at boot-time. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
FWIW, I have been using giant SATA drives for the last 5-6 years with my 2002 G4 Mystic, which is an earlier machine than the DA. I currently have a Seritek 1s2 pci SATA card (2 internal ports) with a 2tb Seagate and a 3tb Western digital mounted above the optical drive slot. I have also used a 4 port seritek card that I abandoned due to intermittent sleep issues. I believe these both were SATA I cards, though I have the newer SATA II and III drives, which are supposed to be backward compatible, and were in my case. If I recall, certain drives had issues with the chipsets in the pci cards, but most were compatible. The only problem I've had was formatting the WD 3 tb drive, which I did with an OWC Voyager external firewire/usb/sata box. (Disk utility only saw 2 tb, which I think is the systems upper limit, thus 2tb and 1 tb partitions were needed). I'm stuck with a pokey 100 bus, but have still have experienced a noticeable improvement in performance with these large capacity Sata drives, much faster than using an external firewire box like the Voyager. I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's hooked up to a 133ATA card. I have 120GB boot drive and 300GB data drive. The computer just hangs on boot-up. The optical drive does nothing. Starting with the optical empty does nothing. The computer just hangs. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Thanks Mark Murphy -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtmlhttp://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtmlhttp://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-listhttp://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to mailto:g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comg3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optouthttps://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Frank Dutra PO Box 3402 Nantucket MA 02584 mailto: fdut...@gmail.com Voice: (508) 292-1528 FAX: (815) 377-2407 -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
Can the G4 address that much space? Remember, the SCSI drives only have one parameter block for specifying the LBA (but there are several parameter block formats). Small/large IDE drives are accessed in this way: 1) Small drives have one parameter block, whereas 2) large drives use the same parameter block as small drives, for the low-order 24 bits of the LBA, and a second parameter block for the high-prder 24 bits of the LBA, for a total of 48 bits. Should the drive receive just the first parameter block, then just the first 131,072 MB will be accessed. The drive temporarily waits for the second parameter block. If it is received, then the two 24 bit values are concatenated into a 48 bit LBA, and the access proceeds. It is for this reason that large IDE drives which are connected to an internal IDE port on a PPC Mac can only access 131,072 MB. However, some PPC Macs can have the LBA48 property turned on, by using certain special Open Firmware commands. This is what the Speedtools product simulated using a plug-in extension. But such an extension was not always required, if Open Firmware was employed to hack the LBA48 property. See info in ... http://www.seagate.com/staticfiles/support/disc/manuals/Interface%20manuals/100293068c.pdf ... starting at page 18. SCSI drives, which is what ATA drives are modeled after in PCI cards for Macs (and PCs), whenever a PCI card is employed for their access, have several parameter blocks, with various bit counts associated with the specification of the LBA, but only one such parameter block per access. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
I have 120 and a 300 in it right now. The 120 is the boot drive. I have a lot of video files that are filling up the 120. Will a 500GB pata work? Mark Murphy On Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 10:34:16 PM UTC-4, smac0031 wrote: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's hooked up to a 133ATA card. I have 120GB boot drive and 300GB data drive. The computer just hangs on boot-up. The optical drive does nothing. Starting with the optical empty does nothing. The computer just hangs. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Thanks Mark Murphy -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Giant Sata HD bolluxes up my DA G4
Disconnect it and fix your problem. Then get a smaller drive. Why encumber your trusty work horse with problems? Balance is very valuable in a system. Adrian D'Alessio aka; Fluxstringer fluxstrin...@gmail.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/fluxstreamcommunication/ http://www.facebook.com/FluxStringer https://www.youtube.com/user/fluxstringer http://www.linkedin.com/in/fluxstreamcommunications http://flux-influx.blogspot.com/ http://fluxdreams.designbinder.com/ On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 10:34 PM, smac0031 m.smurph...@gmail.com wrote: I got a 2TB sata HD and Pata Sata converter for it to use in my DA G4 running 10.1.11. It's hooked up to a 133ATA card. I have 120GB boot drive and 300GB data drive. The computer just hangs on boot-up. The optical drive does nothing. Starting with the optical empty does nothing. The computer just hangs. It's had startup issues for some time. It order to reboot it you have to use the button on the front. Same for shutdown. I just let it run all the time. Looks like the giant 2TB is useless for this machine and I realize this computer is 15 years old. Unless somebody has some ideas. Thanks Mark Murphy -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups G-Group group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to g3-5-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
