Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-12-02 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Nicol,

Nicol wrote:

If super liam for instance were a third person game, you wouldn't have
heard liam's voice in the cut sceens, but an observer's voice instead.
For example, in the cut sceen of the lava lake,  instead of liam saying:
You want me to go through that to kill a stupid robot?
If it were  A third person game,  there would have been the voice of an
observer instead of the voice of liam.
The voice would have sounded something like:
liam thinks its ridiculous to go through this to killa stupid robot.

My reply:

That's not really true. Lots of things such as movies, game cut scenes, 
etc are all in the third person. For that reason I believe all of Super 
Liam's cut scenes are in the third person. Mainly because they are 
scenes involving Liam talking to X1 or someone else.


Here is an example of a third person cut scene. In Tomb Raider Last 
Revelation at the beginning of level 3, the actual start of the game, a 
full cinamatic cut scene starts up with two robed riders on cammels 
crossing the desert. The two riders dismount and are attacked at once by 
hords of giant scorpions. One of the riders, the slim female rider, 
draws a pistol and kills the sscorpions. She then moves to a secret 
lever, pulls it, and the ground opens up beneath her, she sscreams, and 
falls down a slide into a secret chamber below. After a second to get 
her breath back the woman stands up, takes off her robes, and reveals to 
the camra for the first time it is none other than world famous 
archeologist Lara Croft. Big surprise right?


This scene I described is definitely third person because you are not 
experiencing it from Lara Croft's perspective. In stead you are viewing 
Lara and her guide from a distance as though you were there in the 
desert watching them approach on cammels, fight off the scorpions, and 
then watch Lara fall into the secret chamber below. It is all from the 
viewers perspective which makes it third person.


So getting back to Super Liam the same principle applies. When you hear 
Liam talking to say X1 you are not getting it from Liam's perspective so 
it can't be first person. All of the cut scenes including the one you 
mentioned are from the listener's perspective which makes them third person.



HTH


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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-12-01 Thread Nicol Oosthuizen
Yeah, thanks, tom.Nice explanation.
Nice and clear  explanation
-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org]
On Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 30 November 2009 05:03 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

Hi Nicol,
Sure can. The primary difference between First Person and Third Person 
games is purely visual. In a Third Person game like Tomb Raider you can 
see the main character like Lara Croft on the screen, at all times,  as 
you move around the game world. It is like a movie where you can see all

the players on the screen at once. In a First Person game like Doom 
there is no actual character on screen and the entire visual perspective

is if you were actually standing there in the game,and all you might see

of your game character is an arm holding a weapon or something like 
that. Otherwise there is very little difference how the game is actually

played. Does that make sense?

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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-12-01 Thread Nicol Oosthuizen
HI Dark
Dark wrote
Games where your character is defined specifically by sound and you
here objects around that character independently of it's movement, ---
such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and
move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night
of parasite and treasure hunt I regard as third person,  even with a
limited, occasionally scrolling view point.
I beg to differ from you somewhat.
If you try to compare third person games with literature, no audio  side
scroller is third person, as liam himself is talking in the cut sceens.
A third person game would be a game where the cut sceen is of someone
observing what is liam doing.
If super liam for instance were a third person game, you wouldn't have
heard liam's voice in the cut sceens, but an observer's voice instead.
For example, in the cut sceen of the lava lake,  instead of liam saying:
You want me to go through that to kill a stupid robot? 
If it were  A third person game,  there would have been the voice of an
observer instead of the voice of liam.
The voice would have sounded something like:
liam thinks its ridiculous to go through this to killa stupid robot.
The same with the ouch sounds liam makes when an enemy or fireball or
lazar hits him.
If sl were a  third person game, you would have heard the voice of the
observer saying:
ouch, that  must have been sore.
So therefore I agree with tom rather that third person games is only
mainstream.
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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-12-01 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Dark,
You bring up some good points. Some of which I haven't thought much 
about. However, as you said if we continue on with this discussion we 
will eventually get into a discussion of cross sensory representation 
and theories of functionalism which is way beyond what this list is for.


Grin

dark wrote:
I've always felt tom that audio side scrollers were third person, 
sinse you here not what is literally around the character's position, 
but what is ahead of and behind them,  something which they 
themselves couldn't here, or at least, wouldn't here in the same 
position as the player here's it.


I also disagree that the first/third person distinction is exclusively 
visual at all.


Remember, that the very origin of the phrase comes from literature.

first person, ie, talking about only yourself I walked down the road 
and 


Second person, Ie, talking to a second present person Ie, you fell 
down a hole you idiot!


Third person, Ie, a tirciary observer independent both of the person 
expeirncing events, and the person to whome those events, and a second 
party witnissing them Ie  she climbed out of the hole,  
because she was Angela carter and litle things like holes didn't 
bother her!


Personally, i only tend to think of full audio games where you here 
what is literally around the character as first person, and games 
where you here the character's position independent of their 
surroundings as third person.


So games like Shades of doom, packman talks, Terraformers, --- and 
also sterrio targiting affairs like troopanum where you physically 
move your targit and things are in it's range, I regard as first person.


Games where your character is defigned pspecficially by sound and you 
here objects around that character independently of it's movement, --- 
such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and 
move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night 
of parasite and treasurehunt I regard as third perwson,  even with 
a limited, occasionally scrolling view point.


An interesting distinction was made actually by a sited friend of mine 
who tried shades of doom. He's an avid fan of graphical doom and very 
familiar with the series.


He actually said it was far easier for him to play by audio alone than 
with The graphical display in the gma engine, --- -which shows only 
vague representation in black and white,  but from what might be 
called a top down perspective, rather than a first person one.


Thus, when in a corridor,  instead of seeing on the screen (as in 
real doom), what your character sees, you see the corridor as a white 
rectangle, with your character as a black circle in the center.


You can therefore see all around your character, in front and behind.

It might therefore be said though the sound is first person,  the 
graphics (such as they are), are third person.


sinse my spacial coordination is pretty pathetic, I just ran with 
this, --- -but my friend, being used to graphical doom, found it 
extremely difficult to work with and actually requested me to turn the 
graphics off because he found the transition of viewpoints very 
difficult.


In the end though, this is probably just a matter of semantics and 
personal opinion,  though it does bring up some interesting 
questions about the representative qualities of audio,  but before 
I start going into aesthetics, cross sensory representation and 
theories of functionalism I'd better stop!



Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-12-01 Thread dark

Hello.

Literature wise, strictly speaking the audio drama field is stil third 
person, sinse you here Liam essentially talking to himself, --- -as a third 
person. Audio drama uses the same medium.


First person would have been Liam saying something like I wondered why I 
was going through all this, just to fight a stupid robot


Not liam talking to Dr. Quark as happens.

this wasn't however really what I was getting at in the mail, sinse my main 
concern was the difference in the actual gameplay.


To put it simply, I'd view games where you here the character's position, 
and then! here what is around him/her,  rather than directly hereing 
things the way the character would, as third person.


In Suprliam for instance, there is no sonic difference betwene hereing an 
enemy coming from in front or behind,  where as in a game like shades, 
there very much is (in fact is.


This is my point.

Really though, I only find the matter interesting for what it says about how 
to explain spaces in audio and the nature of audio against visual 
information.


It's mostly a semantic matter,  and not one which really is easy to 
solve as to whether a given game is first or third person.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Nicol Oosthuizen noosthui...@sars.gov.za

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question



HI Dark
Dark wrote
Games where your character is defined specifically by sound and you
here objects around that character independently of it's movement, ---
such as all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and
move your spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night
of parasite and treasure hunt I regard as third person,  even with a
limited, occasionally scrolling view point.
I beg to differ from you somewhat.
If you try to compare third person games with literature, no audio  side
scroller is third person, as liam himself is talking in the cut sceens.
A third person game would be a game where the cut sceen is of someone
observing what is liam doing.
If super liam for instance were a third person game, you wouldn't have
heard liam's voice in the cut sceens, but an observer's voice instead.
For example, in the cut sceen of the lava lake,  instead of liam saying:
You want me to go through that to kill a stupid robot?
If it were  A third person game,  there would have been the voice of an
observer instead of the voice of liam.
The voice would have sounded something like:
liam thinks its ridiculous to go through this to killa stupid robot.
The same with the ouch sounds liam makes when an enemy or fireball or
lazar hits him.
If sl were a  third person game, you would have heard the voice of the
observer saying:
ouch, that  must have been sore.
So therefore I agree with tom rather that third person games is only
mainstream.
Please Note: This email and its contents are subject to our email legal 
notice which can be viewed at http://www.sars.gov.za/Email_Disclaimer.pdf


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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-12-01 Thread dark
Unfortunately Tom, debating the qualatitive nature of various senses is a 
bit of a pet habbit of mine,  I used to have raging arguements in 
Aesthetics (philosophy of art and beauty), tutorials, on the artistic and 
representative qualities of senses like smell,  then for my Masters I 
did an essay on synaesthesia and functionalism, which investigated the type 
and quality of sensary information someone who was synaesthesic got from 
their senses.


As you said though, these really aren't things which should be discussed on 
this list,  though they do very much have a baring on how to represent 
an entire environment by the medium of sound,  as audio games have to.


I'll stop rambling now though!

Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question



Hi Dark,
You bring up some good points. Some of which I haven't thought much about. 
However, as you said if we continue on with this discussion we will 
eventually get into a discussion of cross sensory representation and 
theories of functionalism which is way beyond what this list is for.


Grin




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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-11-30 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi dark,
Yeah, when it comes to accessible games the distinction between first 
person and third person breaks down because those labels refer to a 
completely visual concept that isn't there in our games.
Games like Shades of Doom, Monkey Business, Sarah, you name it are 
probably technically first person do to the fact the audio is 
specifically oriented to the player's position in the game world. That 
is you hear things in relationship to the player character as though you 
were physically there in the game. It is virtually impossible to 
separate the player's position and the relation ship of the other items 
independently the way you could if it were a third person game and make 
it accessible.


In that sense Mysteries of the Ancients, although it is a side-scroller, 
is still from the point of view of the first person. You hear things to 
the left and right of Angela, as though you were were standing there, 
and you react as though you were in that certain place and time 
physically. In the third person You wouldn't necessarily see or hear 
sounds from her point of view, but see it as if you were outside the 
world looking in on the people inside it. Kind of like looking through a 
window at them and hearing and seeing them from that vantage point.



dark wrote:

Hi nicol.

Just as in English, it's very symple. if you experience thei game from 
your character's perspective directly,  Ie, seeing the sites, and 
hearing the sounds that he/she would around you, then it's first person.


If the character themselves is there for you to move around, and you 
experience the environment around the character from a different point 
of view than that of the character,  it's a third person game.


Most audio games are first person,  sinse for obvious reasons it's 
easier to experience the sounds from your characters perspective.


The only ones I can think of which aren't, are Side scrollers like Q9 
and mota, where you here what is in front of and behind your 
character, and know where your character is by the sound of his/her 
footsteps, --- independently of the environment, it's possible Night 
of parasite, treasure hunt, and maybe entombed might also count as 
third person,  though this is argueable.


Actually, in audio, sinse it's more difficult to represent a large 
amount of environmental information at a glance,  the distinction 
is a litle more blurry.


Beware the grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-11-30 Thread dark
I've always felt tom that audio side scrollers were third person, sinse you 
here not what is literally around the character's position, but what is 
ahead of and behind them,  something which they themselves couldn't 
here, or at least, wouldn't here in the same position as the player here's 
it.


I also disagree that the first/third person distinction is exclusively 
visual at all.


Remember, that the very origin of the phrase comes from literature.

first person, ie, talking about only yourself I walked down the road 
and 


Second person, Ie, talking to a second present person Ie, you fell down a 
hole you idiot!


Third person, Ie, a tirciary observer independent both of the person 
expeirncing events, and the person to whome those events, and a second party 
witnissing them Ie  she climbed out of the hole,  because she was 
Angela carter and litle things like holes didn't bother her!


Personally, i only tend to think of full audio games where you here what is 
literally around the character as first person, and games where you here the 
character's position independent of their surroundings as third person.


So games like Shades of doom, packman talks, Terraformers, --- and also 
sterrio targiting affairs like troopanum where you physically move your 
targit and things are in it's range, I regard as first person.


Games where your character is defigned pspecficially by sound and you here 
objects around that character independently of it's movement, --- such as 
all the audio side scrollers, alien outback (you can here and move your 
spaceship), and the grid based games such as entombed, night of parasite and 
treasurehunt I regard as third perwson,  even with a limited, 
occasionally scrolling view point.


An interesting distinction was made actually by a sited friend of mine who 
tried shades of doom. He's an avid fan of graphical doom and very familiar 
with the series.


He actually said it was far easier for him to play by audio alone than with 
The graphical display in the gma engine, --- -which shows only vague 
representation in black and white,  but from what might be called a top 
down perspective, rather than a first person one.


Thus, when in a corridor,  instead of seeing on the screen (as in real 
doom), what your character sees, you see the corridor as a white rectangle, 
with your character as a black circle in the center.


You can therefore see all around your character, in front and behind.

It might therefore be said though the sound is first person,  the 
graphics (such as they are), are third person.


sinse my spacial coordination is pretty pathetic, I just ran with 
this, --- -but my friend, being used to graphical doom, found it extremely 
difficult to work with and actually requested me to turn the graphics off 
because he found the transition of viewpoints very difficult.


In the end though, this is probably just a matter of semantics and personal 
opinion,  though it does bring up some interesting questions about the 
representative qualities of audio,  but before I start going into 
aesthetics, cross sensory representation and theories of functionalism I'd 
better stop!



Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-11-29 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Nicol,
Sure can. The primary difference between First Person and Third Person 
games is purely visual. In a Third Person game like Tomb Raider you can 
see the main character like Lara Croft on the screen, at all times,  as 
you move around the game world. It is like a movie where you can see all 
the players on the screen at once. In a First Person game like Doom 
there is no actual character on screen and the entire visual perspective 
is if you were actually standing there in the game,and all you might see 
of your game character is an arm holding a weapon or something like 
that. Otherwise there is very little difference how the game is actually 
played. Does that make sense?



Nicol wrote:

HI all
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a first person and
third person game?



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Re: [Audyssey] fps/tps question

2009-11-29 Thread dark

Hi nicol.

Just as in English, it's very symple. if you experience thei game from your 
character's perspective directly,  Ie, seeing the sites, and hearing the 
sounds that he/she would around you, then it's first person.


If the character themselves is there for you to move around, and you 
experience the environment around the character from a different point of 
view than that of the character,  it's a third person game.


Most audio games are first person,  sinse for obvious reasons it's 
easier to experience the sounds from your characters perspective.


The only ones I can think of which aren't, are Side scrollers like Q9 and 
mota, where you here what is in front of and behind your character, and know 
where your character is by the sound of his/her footsteps, --- independently 
of the environment, it's possible Night of parasite, treasure hunt, and 
maybe entombed might also count as third person,  though this is 
argueable.


Actually, in audio, sinse it's more difficult to represent a large amount of 
environmental information at a glance,  the distinction is a litle more 
blurry.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Nicol nicoljaco...@telkomsa.net

To: gamers Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:28 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] fps/tps question



HI all
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a first person and
third person game?



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