Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
it from a command prompt. Grin.


On 10/16/10, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 Wouldn't be funny if the missing memory was for loading and playing files
 that you removed such as the title file and the cut scene?
 smiles,
 Phil


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Well, even though i don't actually use any drawing and rendering
graphics with the game engine I still need to depend on the graphics
libraries to draw a simple Window to the screen. Otherwise you would
be playing the game in a Windows command prompt or a Linux terminal
window. That would be fine I suppose, but most people expect a Windows
application to, well, have a window of some kind rather than being
played
through a command prompt window, or via a terminal window on Linux. If
it were up to me personally I'd just get rid of the window and play it
through a command prompt window/terminal window as the GUI is only
there to look like a Windows application. Beyond that the graphics
engine does nothing useful for us.



On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Okay, I thought it'd be the other way around. But at least we know what the
 problem is. Though I would think because there are graphics the graphics
 engine wouldn't be involved.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
HiCharles,
I doubt it. The only call the main loop makes to the graphics engine
is the Display() method that just redraws or refreshes the state of
the window once and a while. As I think this line of the code is the
one causing the crash I've removed it from the main loop. Since we are
dealing with a static empty window we don't need to constantly refresh
the screen anyway. However, I've played a couple of games and with or
without the engine refreshing the screen I haven't noticed any change
in performance for better or for worse.


On 10/16/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 If there are no calls to the graphics engine, will the program operate more
 responsively?  I haven't been having a response problem as far as speed is
 concerned, but it's a thought.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread shaun everiss
what would happen if you did it that way, we don't need the window 
really as long as it appears as a task and not something else i have 
no issue with it.

At 07:33 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi,
Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
it from a command prompt. Grin.


On 10/16/10, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 Wouldn't be funny if the missing memory was for loading and playing files
 that you removed such as the title file and the cut scene?
 smiles,
 Phil


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread clement chou
Fair enough. Was just curious, that's all. I know computers, just not the 
complete ins and outs. haha.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
Well, even though i don't actually use any drawing and rendering
graphics with the game engine I still need to depend on the graphics
libraries to draw a simple Window to the screen. Otherwise you would
be playing the game in a Windows command prompt or a Linux terminal
window. That would be fine I suppose, but most people expect a Windows
application to, well, have a window of some kind rather than being
played
through a command prompt window, or via a terminal window on Linux. If
it were up to me personally I'd just get rid of the window and play it
through a command prompt window/terminal window as the GUI is only
there to look like a Windows application. Beyond that the graphics
engine does nothing useful for us.



On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
Okay, I thought it'd be the other way around. But at least we know what 
the

problem is. Though I would think because there are graphics the graphics
engine wouldn't be involved.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread shaun everiss

get rid of the stupid window I wouldn't care at all.
I wouldn't care if it looked like a terminal.
Hmmm if it is an issue with the graphics engine though that probably 
needs fixing.
On that note if all you want is a window is there something generic 
you can use just for that?
if not kill it as long as it runs as a normal task, ie alt tab does 
not get me out of it then do it.
If this requiring it to look like a window is crashing the game, 
unless we need our readers active then I have no issue make it shove 
totally off.

At 07:45 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi,
Well, even though i don't actually use any drawing and rendering
graphics with the game engine I still need to depend on the graphics
libraries to draw a simple Window to the screen. Otherwise you would
be playing the game in a Windows command prompt or a Linux terminal
window. That would be fine I suppose, but most people expect a Windows
application to, well, have a window of some kind rather than being
played
through a command prompt window, or via a terminal window on Linux. If
it were up to me personally I'd just get rid of the window and play it
through a command prompt window/terminal window as the GUI is only
there to look like a Windows application. Beyond that the graphics
engine does nothing useful for us.



On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Okay, I thought it'd be the other way around. But at least we know what the
 problem is. Though I would think because there are graphics the graphics
 engine wouldn't be involved.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread clement chou

Actualy, I tend to agree.. I wouldn't have a problem wit that either.
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News


what would happen if you did it that way, we don't need the window really 
as long as it appears as a task and not something else i have no issue 
with it.

At 07:33 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi,
Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
it from a command prompt. Grin.


On 10/16/10, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 Wouldn't be funny if the missing memory was for loading and playing 
 files

 that you removed such as the title file and the cut scene?
 smiles,
 Phil


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Kevin Weispfennig
Hi,

But that would look a little odd to me. A powerful, awesome game, in a 
boring Commandline window? With probably status reports floating the 
way... Oh wait, you could turn them off. Never mind. I like the window as 
it is. Nice black background... 

Kevin

- Original Message -
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:14:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

 Actualy, I tend to agree.. I wouldn't have a problem wit that either.
 - Original Message - 
 From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 11:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News
 
 
  what would happen if you did it that way, we don't need the window 
really 
  as long as it appears as a task and not something else i have no issue 
  with it.
  At 07:33 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:
 Hi,
 Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
 an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
 I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
 it from a command prompt. Grin.
 
 
 On 10/16/10, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
   Hi Thomas,
   Wouldn't be funny if the missing memory was for loading and playing 
   files
   that you removed such as the title file and the cut scene?
   smiles,
   Phil
  
  
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Kevin Weispfennig
Hi,

I think the graphics engine is what makes my computer go literarely hot. 
The fan starts kicking in as if I were playing a super-high quality 
graphic and video video game.

Kevin

- Original Message -
From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:30:45 +1300
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

 get rid of the stupid window I wouldn't care at all.
 I wouldn't care if it looked like a terminal.
 Hmmm if it is an issue with the graphics engine though that probably 
 needs fixing.
 On that note if all you want is a window is there something generic 
 you can use just for that?
 if not kill it as long as it runs as a normal task, ie alt tab does 
 not get me out of it then do it.
 If this requiring it to look like a window is crashing the game, 
 unless we need our readers active then I have no issue make it shove 
 totally off.
 At 07:45 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:
 Hi,
 Well, even though i don't actually use any drawing and rendering
 graphics with the game engine I still need to depend on the graphics
 libraries to draw a simple Window to the screen. Otherwise you would
 be playing the game in a Windows command prompt or a Linux terminal
 window. That would be fine I suppose, but most people expect a Windows
 application to, well, have a window of some kind rather than being
 played
 through a command prompt window, or via a terminal window on Linux. If
 it were up to me personally I'd just get rid of the window and play it
 through a command prompt window/terminal window as the GUI is only
 there to look like a Windows application. Beyond that the graphics
 engine does nothing useful for us.
 
 
 
 On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
   Okay, I thought it'd be the other way around. But at least we know 
what the
   problem is. Though I would think because there are graphics the 
graphics
   engine wouldn't be involved.
  
  
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Kevin Weispfennig
Hello,

I am wondering... Just curious, what makes the arrow keys so non-responcive 
in the main menu? Not that I have a problem with it, which I don't, but I 
am just wondering as to why this is...

Kevin

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:43:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

 Hi,
 Well, before we completely rule out the input as sucky let's
 remember this is a beta. That means I'm testing and trying different
 things to see how they work. I've already made a few changes to the
 input system in beta 16 that has improved input and made it a bit
 smoother and responsive than beta 15. A lot of what is needed here is
 fine tuning of the code, but I can't do that with this stop error
 hanging over my head.
 Fortunately, I have an idea as to what is happening, but still not
 exactly certain as to what is causing it. I'm looking at various
 possibilities which hopefully bare fruit soon. I've got a possible
 patch in the works for the beta testers which might, repete might, fix
 it, but we won't know until it gets tested.
 
 Cheers!
 
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Kevin,
Part of it could be do to your processor speed, but mostly it comes
down to the fact SFML uses an event driven keyboard input system.
There are two types of input systems. The first is the direct input
system used by DirectX and the second is the more common event driven
input system.
With DirectX DirectInput when the library is properly initialized it
acquires direct and exclusive access to the keyboard, mouse, joystick,
whatever. As a result the program has direct access to and full
control of the keyboard while the program is in the foreground. It can
poll the state of the keyboard say 50 times a second, store the state
of the keyboard in a buffer, and act upon one or more keyboard
commands at the same time. This is obviously much faster because the
program doesn't have to wait on the operating system like Windows to
dispatch the state of the keyboard through various levels until the
application is signaled with a key down or key up message.
With an event driven system such as that SFML uses the operating
system has control of the keyboard, mouse, etc and is in charge of key
down and key up events. It stores these events in a message queue
where it is later dispatched to whatever application happens to be
waiting for a key down or key up event. In normal day to day
applications like Notepad nobody seams to notice that this is
happening because speed isn't critical to using the application. In
games though the event driven system is more noticable because people
expect lightning fast performance, reaction  times, etc but often have
to wait for the operating system to catch up and process all of their
key presses and releases at a rate higher than it was designed to do.
For example, I've seen or heard of gamers that bang there keyboards
hundreds of times a second trying to get the program to react faster.
The problem with that approach is unknown to them they are making
matters worse by flooding the message queue with more events to
process and dispatch. That kind of behavior slows the input down
rather than speeds it up, because they aren't giving the OS time to
catch up with there rapidfire key presses and releases.
A case in point. i'm sure you have seen times where Angela is walking
or running in the game and the game will freeze for half a second or
so and continue. This is in part do to the fact the game is trying to
poll the message queue for input messages, but the operating system is
delayed do to trying to catch up with x number of events being
processed at once.
The solution, which I have introduced in beta 16, is to slow the
application down and have it poll the message queue maybe 40 times a
second instead of 50 times a second or whatever. That way the
application will give the CPU some breathing time to process the queue
without constantly sending and recieving messages it can't keep up
with. Plus I have decided to drop some events that are unnecessary
repetes. I think you will find beta 16 has a smoother input system
simply because I've backed off on sending and recieving input events
at a pace the OS can't cope with and handle.
So the short answer is the input is a bit slower because we don't have
direct access to the keyboard. We have to poll the operating system
itself for what the keyboard is doing, and that isn't the quickest and
most reliable way to get input It just happens to be the most
practical when multiple operating systems are involved.

HTH



On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Hello,

 I am wondering... Just curious, what makes the arrow keys so non-responcive
 in the main menu? Not that I have a problem with it, which I don't, but I
 am just wondering as to why this is...

 Kevin

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Lol! Actually, I've been thinking of loading a jpg  file of a temple
or tomb to make the main window a little more apealing. Yeah, It
wouldn't do us any good, but for sighties that come over and want to
see what you are doing will have something more interesting to see
than an empty black window. Either that or scroll text on the screen
using the graphics engine that mirrors the speech output.

Smile.


On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 But that would look a little odd to me. A powerful, awesome game, in a
 boring Commandline window? With probably status reports floating the
 way... Oh wait, you could turn them off. Never mind. I like the window as
 it is. Nice black background...

 Kevin

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
It isn't the window itself that is causing the game to blue screenon
exit. From what I've been able to discover thus far it looks like the
call to
sf::Window::Display()
which is used to update the display is what is actually crashing the
game. Since we don't need to refresh the display I've now removed it
from the main loop. I hope that by removing it the game will no longer
crash on exit. We should know soon as I'm going to give the patch to a
couple of private testers for testing.
As for using something generic sf::Window is as pretty generic as they
come, and we need it for keyboard, mouse, and joystick input anyway.
Without that library being initialized and used we don't have any
input system.

Cheers!


On 10/17/10, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 get rid of the stupid window I wouldn't care at all.
 I wouldn't care if it looked like a terminal.
 Hmmm if it is an issue with the graphics engine though that probably
 needs fixing.
 On that note if all you want is a window is there something generic
 you can use just for that?
 if not kill it as long as it runs as a normal task, ie alt tab does
 not get me out of it then do it.
 If this requiring it to look like a window is crashing the game,
 unless we need our readers active then I have no issue make it shove
 totally off.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Well, as I said in my earlier post the window does two things. It
provides a Windows look and feel to the game, and the second is I use
it for capturing keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If we remove
the window we also lose the input support it provides as well. Not
cool.

On 10/17/10, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 what would happen if you did it that way, we don't need the window
 really as long as it appears as a task and not something else i have
 no issue with it.
 At 07:33 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:
Hi,
Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
it from a command prompt. Grin.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Charles Rivard

Are those private testers a few of those who have had the crashing problem?

---
Shepherds are the best beasts!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
It isn't the window itself that is causing the game to blue screenon
exit. From what I've been able to discover thus far it looks like the
call to
sf::Window::Display()
which is used to update the display is what is actually crashing the
game. Since we don't need to refresh the display I've now removed it
from the main loop. I hope that by removing it the game will no longer
crash on exit. We should know soon as I'm going to give the patch to a
couple of private testers for testing.
As for using something generic sf::Window is as pretty generic as they
come, and we need it for keyboard, mouse, and joystick input anyway.
Without that library being initialized and used we don't have any
input system.

Cheers!


On 10/17/10, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:

get rid of the stupid window I wouldn't care at all.
I wouldn't care if it looked like a terminal.
Hmmm if it is an issue with the graphics engine though that probably
needs fixing.
On that note if all you want is a window is there something generic
you can use just for that?
if not kill it as long as it runs as a normal task, ie alt tab does
not get me out of it then do it.
If this requiring it to look like a window is crashing the game,
unless we need our readers active then I have no issue make it shove
totally off.


---
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list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. 



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Charles Rivard
Would this give a partially sighted player, or a sighted one for that 
matter, any advantage over a totally blind player?


---
Shepherds are the best beasts!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: weis...@googlemail.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
Lol! Actually, I've been thinking of loading a jpg  file of a temple
or tomb to make the main window a little more apealing. Yeah, It
wouldn't do us any good, but for sighties that come over and want to
see what you are doing will have something more interesting to see
than an empty black window. Either that or scroll text on the screen
using the graphics engine that mirrors the speech output.

Smile.


On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:

Hi,

But that would look a little odd to me. A powerful, awesome game, in a
boring Commandline window? With probably status reports floating the
way... Oh wait, you could turn them off. Never mind. I like the window as
it is. Nice black background...

Kevin


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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Charles Rivard
So, will beta 16 run faster on a processor faster than 3 gig as opposed to a 
1.9 gig processor?


---
Shepherds are the best beasts!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: weis...@googlemail.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi Kevin,
Part of it could be do to your processor speed, but mostly it comes
down to the fact SFML uses an event driven keyboard input system.
There are two types of input systems. The first is the direct input
system used by DirectX and the second is the more common event driven
input system.
With DirectX DirectInput when the library is properly initialized it
acquires direct and exclusive access to the keyboard, mouse, joystick,
whatever. As a result the program has direct access to and full
control of the keyboard while the program is in the foreground. It can
poll the state of the keyboard say 50 times a second, store the state
of the keyboard in a buffer, and act upon one or more keyboard
commands at the same time. This is obviously much faster because the
program doesn't have to wait on the operating system like Windows to
dispatch the state of the keyboard through various levels until the
application is signaled with a key down or key up message.
With an event driven system such as that SFML uses the operating
system has control of the keyboard, mouse, etc and is in charge of key
down and key up events. It stores these events in a message queue
where it is later dispatched to whatever application happens to be
waiting for a key down or key up event. In normal day to day
applications like Notepad nobody seams to notice that this is
happening because speed isn't critical to using the application. In
games though the event driven system is more noticable because people
expect lightning fast performance, reaction  times, etc but often have
to wait for the operating system to catch up and process all of their
key presses and releases at a rate higher than it was designed to do.
For example, I've seen or heard of gamers that bang there keyboards
hundreds of times a second trying to get the program to react faster.
The problem with that approach is unknown to them they are making
matters worse by flooding the message queue with more events to
process and dispatch. That kind of behavior slows the input down
rather than speeds it up, because they aren't giving the OS time to
catch up with there rapidfire key presses and releases.
A case in point. i'm sure you have seen times where Angela is walking
or running in the game and the game will freeze for half a second or
so and continue. This is in part do to the fact the game is trying to
poll the message queue for input messages, but the operating system is
delayed do to trying to catch up with x number of events being
processed at once.
The solution, which I have introduced in beta 16, is to slow the
application down and have it poll the message queue maybe 40 times a
second instead of 50 times a second or whatever. That way the
application will give the CPU some breathing time to process the queue
without constantly sending and recieving messages it can't keep up
with. Plus I have decided to drop some events that are unnecessary
repetes. I think you will find beta 16 has a smoother input system
simply because I've backed off on sending and recieving input events
at a pace the OS can't cope with and handle.
So the short answer is the input is a bit slower because we don't have
direct access to the keyboard. We have to poll the operating system
itself for what the keyboard is doing, and that isn't the quickest and
most reliable way to get input It just happens to be the most
practical when multiple operating systems are involved.

HTH



On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:

Hello,

I am wondering... Just curious, what makes the arrow keys so 
non-responcive

in the main menu? Not that I have a problem with it, which I don't, but I
am just wondering as to why this is...

Kevin


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Kevin Weispfennig
Hi,

Nope it won't at all, since it is only one picture, which is like for us a 
background sound. And if a background sound helps you identify that the 
next room you will fall down a pit, then I would be scared.

Kevin
- Original Message -
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:59:06 -0500
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

 Would this give a partially sighted player, or a sighted one for that 
 matter, any advantage over a totally blind player?
 
 ---
 Shepherds are the best beasts!
 - Original Message - 
 From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
 To: weis...@googlemail.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:32 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News
 
 
  Hi,
  Lol! Actually, I've been thinking of loading a jpg  file of a temple
  or tomb to make the main window a little more apealing. Yeah, It
  wouldn't do us any good, but for sighties that come over and want to
  see what you are doing will have something more interesting to see
  than an empty black window. Either that or scroll text on the screen
  using the graphics engine that mirrors the speech output.
 
  Smile.
 
 
  On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Hi,
 
  But that would look a little odd to me. A powerful, awesome game, in a
  boring Commandline window? With probably status reports floating the
  way... Oh wait, you could turn them off. Never mind. I like the window 
as
  it is. Nice black background...
 
  Kevin
 
  ---
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  gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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  http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org.
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  list,
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
I know at least one private tester has, but the rest haven't had it
which is why it slipped through the beta 14 testing cycle. I'd have
tried to fix it earlier had i known it was a serious problem, but all
private testers will get a copy anyway as they need to stay current
with the updates introduced in beta 16.


On 10/17/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Are those private testers a few of those who have had the crashing problem?

 ---
 Shepherds are the best beasts!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Kevin Weispfennig
Hi,

Oh my god, imagine playing mota without any control.
That would be not, fun, at all.

Kevin

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:50:02 -0400
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

 Hi Shaun,
 Well, as I said in my earlier post the window does two things. It
 provides a Windows look and feel to the game, and the second is I use
 it for capturing keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If we remove
 the window we also lose the input support it provides as well. Not
 cool.
 
 On 10/17/10, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
  what would happen if you did it that way, we don't need the window
  really as long as it appears as a task and not something else i have
  no issue with it.
  At 07:33 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:
 Hi,
 Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
 an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
 I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
 it from a command prompt. Grin.
 
 ---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Probably. My main laptop has a Pentium 3.6 in it and the game runs
smoothly and responsively on that machine. I've got an older 2 GHZ
laptop strictly used for testing purposes and while the game runs I
notice some lag in the input and loading of sounds. That's just the
speed and memory of the machine at fault I think.


On 10/17/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 So, will beta 16 run faster on a processor faster than 3 gig as opposed to a
 1.9 gig processor?

 ---
 Shepherds are the best beasts!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Sky Taylor
Oh by the way Thomas, while I was going through the sounds folder I saw a 
file with a monster that appears when you go into the water. I played both 
levels, and the water is not in the beta I've got. Perhaps the water level 
or whatever it's called will be in the full version of the game.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
I know at least one private tester has, but the rest haven't had it
which is why it slipped through the beta 14 testing cycle. I'd have
tried to fix it earlier had i known it was a serious problem, but all
private testers will get a copy anyway as they need to stay current
with the updates introduced in beta 16.


On 10/17/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Are those private testers a few of those who have had the crashing 
problem?


---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Bryan Peterson
Funny you should mention that since my wife saw me playing MOTA the other 
day just as she was about to leave for work. She seemed very intrigued by it 
which is encouraging if I were to ask her to work with me on developing. She 
is something of a computer geek though so it's not impossible...

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: weis...@googlemail.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
Lol! Actually, I've been thinking of loading a jpg  file of a temple
or tomb to make the main window a little more apealing. Yeah, It
wouldn't do us any good, but for sighties that come over and want to
see what you are doing will have something more interesting to see
than an empty black window. Either that or scroll text on the screen
using the graphics engine that mirrors the speech output.

Smile.


On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:

Hi,

But that would look a little odd to me. A powerful, awesome game, in a
boring Commandline window? With probably status reports floating the
way... Oh wait, you could turn them off. Never mind. I like the window as
it is. Nice black background...

Kevin


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Absolutely not. We are only talking about one picture that is
basically nothing more than some eye candy to make the window look
better. We are not talking about 3d graphics andactual video for the
game. Totally different thing here.
It would be something like saying you can play an entire game while
looking at the cover art on the front of the box such and such a game
came in. Obviously, since that is just cover art, not the video,
obviously you would have to depend on sounds and other feedback as the
screen itself would be useless for a sighted person other than the
obvious fact the screen isn't pitch black.

Smile.


On 10/17/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Would this give a partially sighted player, or a sighted one for that
 matter, any advantage over a totally blind player?

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Sky,
That's correct. The Hydra isn't in the demo, because it won't show up
until the full release. It is just one of a number of more difficult
monsters that are on later levels in the game. I've got a few more
monsters in mind, but haven't actually gotten around to creating there
sound effects etc.


On 10/17/10, Sky Taylor s...@shaw.ca wrote:
 Oh by the way Thomas, while I was going through the sounds folder I saw a
 file with a monster that appears when you go into the water. I played both
 levels, and the water is not in the beta I've got. Perhaps the water level
 or whatever it's called will be in the full version of the game.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Bryan Peterson

Well there's going to be tenlevels or so so I imagine it would be.
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Sky Taylor s...@shaw.ca

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News


Oh by the way Thomas, while I was going through the sounds folder I saw a 
file with a monster that appears when you go into the water. I played both 
levels, and the water is not in the beta I've got. Perhaps the water level 
or whatever it's called will be in the full version of the game.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
I know at least one private tester has, but the rest haven't had it
which is why it slipped through the beta 14 testing cycle. I'd have
tried to fix it earlier had i known it was a serious problem, but all
private testers will get a copy anyway as they need to stay current
with the updates introduced in beta 16.


On 10/17/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Are those private testers a few of those who have had the crashing 
problem?


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Bryan Peterson

I notice there's a Cyclops sound in the folder as well. Another boss?
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Sky Taylor s...@shaw.ca; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi Sky,
That's correct. The Hydra isn't in the demo, because it won't show up
until the full release. It is just one of a number of more difficult
monsters that are on later levels in the game. I've got a few more
monsters in mind, but haven't actually gotten around to creating there
sound effects etc.


On 10/17/10, Sky Taylor s...@shaw.ca wrote:

Oh by the way Thomas, while I was going through the sounds folder I saw a
file with a monster that appears when you go into the water. I played 
both
levels, and the water is not in the beta I've got. Perhaps the water 
level

or whatever it's called will be in the full version of the game.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread shaun everiss

hmmm the scroling text sounds nice.
though whatever works.
if that engine has issues that are causing exit issues well.
At 08:32 a.m. 18/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi,
Lol! Actually, I've been thinking of loading a jpg  file of a temple
or tomb to make the main window a little more apealing. Yeah, It
wouldn't do us any good, but for sighties that come over and want to
see what you are doing will have something more interesting to see
than an empty black window. Either that or scroll text on the screen
using the graphics engine that mirrors the speech output.

Smile.


On 10/17/10, Kevin Weispfennig weis...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 But that would look a little odd to me. A powerful, awesome game, in a
 boring Commandline window? With probably status reports floating the
 way... Oh wait, you could turn them off. Never mind. I like the window as
 it is. Nice black background...

 Kevin

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread shaun everiss

yeah.
thats a point I didn't think on.
At 08:50 a.m. 18/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,
Well, as I said in my earlier post the window does two things. It
provides a Windows look and feel to the game, and the second is I use
it for capturing keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If we remove
the window we also lose the input support it provides as well. Not
cool.

On 10/17/10, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 what would happen if you did it that way, we don't need the window
 really as long as it appears as a task and not something else i have
 no issue with it.
 At 07:33 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:
Hi,
Haha. Not going to happen. Basically, all I use SFML for is to create
an empty window which accepts keyboard, mouse, and joystick input.  If
I didn't need the GUI for the Windows look/feel I'd probably just run
it from a command prompt. Grin.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Sure is. Not sure what level I'm going to put him on though. I'm going
to be doing some major revamping of the game as soon as I get this
frickin' game engine working. I've got levels 3 and 4 ready to be
added but am uncertain about adding them with the engine being
unstable.


On 10/17/10, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote:
 I notice there's a Cyclops sound in the folder as well. Another boss?
 We are the Knights who say...Ni!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread shaun everiss

I have a core2 duo 2.01ghz, wigh 2gb ram.
input after a bit starts sucking but sounds don't.
then again this soundcard in here is real cheap
At 09:26 a.m. 18/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi,
Probably. My main laptop has a Pentium 3.6 in it and the game runs
smoothly and responsively on that machine. I've got an older 2 GHZ
laptop strictly used for testing purposes and while the game runs I
notice some lag in the input and loading of sounds. That's just the
speed and memory of the machine at fault I think.


On 10/17/10, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 So, will beta 16 run faster on a processor faster than 3 gig as 
opposed to a

 1.9 gig processor?

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-17 Thread Bryan Peterson

Cool. can't wait to play them.
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
Sure is. Not sure what level I'm going to put him on though. I'm going
to be doing some major revamping of the game as soon as I get this
frickin' game engine working. I've got levels 3 and 4 ready to be
added but am uncertain about adding them with the engine being
unstable.


On 10/17/10, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote:

I notice there's a Cyclops sound in the folder as well. Another boss?
We are the Knights who say...Ni!


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[Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi everyone,
Ok, I have some good news and bad news regarding the ongoing research
into the stop error, AKA Blue Screen of Death,  created when exiting
Mysteries of the Ancients.
The good news is a couple of you have sent me a copy of your minidump
files which has allowed me to extract the stop error code the BSOD
displayed shortly before Windows goes down for the count. as expected
the stop error code relates to a memory access violation of some kind.
The bad news is that particular error code, stop error 0x1050,
usually indicates faulty memory. I'm not saying that your memory is
actually faulty only that Windows XP thinks your memory is faulty for
some reason. Unless of course you are over 70 and memory is the first
thing to go. Just kidding.
Seriously though, apparently when the program exits forsome reason
Windows can't access a block of memory for some reason, signals a page
fault, blue screens, and reboots. Why this doesn't happen on every
single Windows computer out there is beyond me, but thats what I've
found out so far.
Now, that I have some idea of what is causing the crash I can go
through and hopefully discover what isn't getting uninitialized before
exiting. There is apparently something hanging on to a block of memory
when the program closes and Windows gets a bit tempermental about it,
and wants it back. In short the BSOD is like Windows throwing a temper
tantrem.
Its mine. That is my memory, and you can't have it. Give it back.
Give it back. Mommie, make him give it back. Fine, I'll just shut down
and reboot.
And who says computers don't have personalities?

Hahahahaha!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread clement chou

Hi Tom.

Glad you've found the problem... hopefully that means those of us who have 
problems won't have them for much longer. But I knew I should've been nicer 
to the computer... al those times I banged my hand on the tower... guess it 
didn't like it that much! Lol! 



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Yeah, hopefully. I have a couple of leads I'm looking into and one of
them might pan out and fix the problem. i certainly hope so as I
don't, reallly really realy don't, want to go back to beta 13 and
start over again. Other than this nasty blue screen issue the new
engine is shaping up ok. Some of the other issues are miner annoyances
that can be easily fixed with some experimentation and work, but this
stop error is a huge show stopper.

On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 Glad you've found the problem... hopefully that means those of us who have
 problems won't have them for much longer. But I knew I should've been nicer
 to the computer... al those times I banged my hand on the tower... guess it
 didn't like it that much! Lol!


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread shaun everiss

well at least you know what it is now.
if you get that issue sorted out the restof the stuff shoule be easy 
enough, the input system is a bit sucky but for an opensource engine 
thats probably expected in fact I was affraid after beta 14 that the 
game would be completely ruined, though opensource is not generally 
crap, I use nvda and thats opensource, winlame and audacity.

still its good that most stuff seems to work.
keep on going man, if you can get this exit issue working then things 
should be ok.

At 01:07 p.m. 17/10/2010, you wrote:

Hi everyone,
Ok, I have some good news and bad news regarding the ongoing research
into the stop error, AKA Blue Screen of Death,  created when exiting
Mysteries of the Ancients.
The good news is a couple of you have sent me a copy of your minidump
files which has allowed me to extract the stop error code the BSOD
displayed shortly before Windows goes down for the count. as expected
the stop error code relates to a memory access violation of some kind.
The bad news is that particular error code, stop error 0x1050,
usually indicates faulty memory. I'm not saying that your memory is
actually faulty only that Windows XP thinks your memory is faulty for
some reason. Unless of course you are over 70 and memory is the first
thing to go. Just kidding.
Seriously though, apparently when the program exits forsome reason
Windows can't access a block of memory for some reason, signals a page
fault, blue screens, and reboots. Why this doesn't happen on every
single Windows computer out there is beyond me, but thats what I've
found out so far.
Now, that I have some idea of what is causing the crash I can go
through and hopefully discover what isn't getting uninitialized before
exiting. There is apparently something hanging on to a block of memory
when the program closes and Windows gets a bit tempermental about it,
and wants it back. In short the BSOD is like Windows throwing a temper
tantrem.
Its mine. That is my memory, and you can't have it. Give it back.
Give it back. Mommie, make him give it back. Fine, I'll just shut down
and reboot.
And who says computers don't have personalities?

Hahahahaha!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
Well, before we completely rule out the input as sucky let's
remember this is a beta. That means I'm testing and trying different
things to see how they work. I've already made a few changes to the
input system in beta 16 that has improved input and made it a bit
smoother and responsive than beta 15. A lot of what is needed here is
fine tuning of the code, but I can't do that with this stop error
hanging over my head.
Fortunately, I have an idea as to what is happening, but still not
exactly certain as to what is causing it. I'm looking at various
possibilities which hopefully bare fruit soon. I've got a possible
patch in the works for the beta testers which might, repete might, fix
it, but we won't know until it gets tested.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Thomas,
Lol...I liked your analogy. Fine, I'll just reboot.

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 7:08 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

Hi everyone,
Ok, I have some good news and bad news regarding the ongoing research
into the stop error, AKA Blue Screen of Death,  created when exiting
Mysteries of the Ancients.
The good news is a couple of you have sent me a copy of your minidump
files which has allowed me to extract the stop error code the BSOD
displayed shortly before Windows goes down for the count. as expected
the stop error code relates to a memory access violation of some kind.
The bad news is that particular error code, stop error 0x1050,
usually indicates faulty memory. I'm not saying that your memory is
actually faulty only that Windows XP thinks your memory is faulty for
some reason. Unless of course you are over 70 and memory is the first
thing to go. Just kidding.
Seriously though, apparently when the program exits forsome reason
Windows can't access a block of memory for some reason, signals a page
fault, blue screens, and reboots. Why this doesn't happen on every
single Windows computer out there is beyond me, but thats what I've
found out so far.
Now, that I have some idea of what is causing the crash I can go
through and hopefully discover what isn't getting uninitialized before
exiting. There is apparently something hanging on to a block of memory
when the program closes and Windows gets a bit tempermental about it,
and wants it back. In short the BSOD is like Windows throwing a temper
tantrem.
Its mine. That is my memory, and you can't have it. Give it back.
Give it back. Mommie, make him give it back. Fine, I'll just shut down
and reboot.
And who says computers don't have personalities?

Hahahahaha!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread clement chou
Yeah, I would imagne so... it would be frustrating not to mention harmful to 
the computer if it had to reboot every time someone wanted to play the game 
who was a frequent player. I fervently hope this gets resolved for the next 
beta.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
Yeah, hopefully. I have a couple of leads I'm looking into and one of
them might pan out and fix the problem. i certainly hope so as I
don't, reallly really realy don't, want to go back to beta 13 and
start over again. Other than this nasty blue screen issue the new
engine is shaping up ok. Some of the other issues are miner annoyances
that can be easily fixed with some experimentation and work, but this
stop error is a huge show stopper.

On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Tom.

Glad you've found the problem... hopefully that means those of us who 
have
problems won't have them for much longer. But I knew I should've been 
nicer
to the computer... al those times I banged my hand on the tower... guess 
it

didn't like it that much! Lol!


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Charles Rivard

For a second there, it sounded like a form of computer Alzheimer's.

---
Shepherds are the best beasts!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 7:07 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi everyone,
Ok, I have some good news and bad news regarding the ongoing research
into the stop error, AKA Blue Screen of Death,  created when exiting
Mysteries of the Ancients.
The good news is a couple of you have sent me a copy of your minidump
files which has allowed me to extract the stop error code the BSOD
displayed shortly before Windows goes down for the count. as expected
the stop error code relates to a memory access violation of some kind.
The bad news is that particular error code, stop error 0x1050,
usually indicates faulty memory. I'm not saying that your memory is
actually faulty only that Windows XP thinks your memory is faulty for
some reason. Unless of course you are over 70 and memory is the first
thing to go. Just kidding.
Seriously though, apparently when the program exits forsome reason
Windows can't access a block of memory for some reason, signals a page
fault, blue screens, and reboots. Why this doesn't happen on every
single Windows computer out there is beyond me, but thats what I've
found out so far.
Now, that I have some idea of what is causing the crash I can go
through and hopefully discover what isn't getting uninitialized before
exiting. There is apparently something hanging on to a block of memory
when the program closes and Windows gets a bit tempermental about it,
and wants it back. In short the BSOD is like Windows throwing a temper
tantrem.
Its mine. That is my memory, and you can't have it. Give it back.
Give it back. Mommie, make him give it back. Fine, I'll just shut down
and reboot.
And who says computers don't have personalities?

Hahahahaha!

---
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. 



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
On the contrary the blue screen, Windows stop error, is actually there
to keep from harming your system. It makes a dump of the last known
state of the system safely unloads everything, and reboots. So the
fact people are getting blue screens shouldn't be harming there
systems by playing the game.   It is more an annoyance than anything
else.
As for fixing the stop error I've got leads. One of the leads I'm
looking at is an error in the SFML graphics engine were it causes the
DirectX graphics driver to crash. Since we don't need graphics I can
remove any calls to the graphics engine and that could possibly end up
fixing the problem. Plus I've been rewriting some things to do a
better job of garbage collection as well. Even if the garbage
collection doesn't solve the error it will make the engine a lot
better at memory management and system resources than it currently is.

On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Yeah, I would imagne so... it would be frustrating not to mention harmful to
 the computer if it had to reboot every time someone wanted to play the game
 who was a frequent player. I fervently hope this gets resolved for the next
 beta.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Charles Rivard
If there are no calls to the graphics engine, will the program operate more 
responsively?  I haven't been having a response problem as far as speed is 
concerned, but it's a thought.


---
Shepherds are the best beasts!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News



Hi,
On the contrary the blue screen, Windows stop error, is actually there
to keep from harming your system. It makes a dump of the last known
state of the system safely unloads everything, and reboots. So the
fact people are getting blue screens shouldn't be harming there
systems by playing the game.   It is more an annoyance than anything
else.
As for fixing the stop error I've got leads. One of the leads I'm
looking at is an error in the SFML graphics engine were it causes the
DirectX graphics driver to crash. Since we don't need graphics I can
remove any calls to the graphics engine and that could possibly end up
fixing the problem. Plus I've been rewriting some things to do a
better job of garbage collection as well. Even if the garbage
collection doesn't solve the error it will make the engine a lot
better at memory management and system resources than it currently is.

On 10/16/10, clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I would imagne so... it would be frustrating not to mention harmful 
to
the computer if it had to reboot every time someone wanted to play the 
game
who was a frequent player. I fervently hope this gets resolved for the 
next

beta.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread Phil Vlasak

Hi Thomas,
Wouldn't be funny if the missing memory was for loading and playing files 
that you removed such as the title file and the cut scene?

smiles,
Phil 



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Good News/Bad News

2010-10-16 Thread clement chou
Okay, I thought it'd be the other way around. But at least we know what the 
problem is. Though I would think because there are graphics the graphics 
engine wouldn't be involved. 



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