Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-03 Thread Charles Rivard
Is it the version that is in the shape of a triangle with the pegs arranged 
like a rack of billiard balls in rows of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, each centered on 
the board?  If so, I'll see if I can remember how to do that one.  I have 
done it, but it was a long time ago.


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



Hi Charles

 in #54 the first part of Hi-q was published and the second part or
solution file is upcoming.  I appreciaite the contributions.  In fact that
was never a game I ever solved without a few pegs left.  While talking 
about
this do you have a solution for the single row version?  I think it's 
about

15 holes or 14 pegs.  It usually was included with the plus sign styled
bored.
 Thanks for the positive thoughts on the mag.

Talk soon
Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


His complaints are why I don't read his messages.  Your responses to them,
which are right on the button, are why I do read yours.

Speaking of the mag, as the subject line indicates, I'm sure glad to hear
that an issue will be out soon, with another to follow.  It is a one-stop
place that gamers can obtain a comprehensive indication on what's going on
in the VI gaming community, what to try or not to try based on firsthand
experiences, and reports, by other VI gamers, and what may be in store for
the future.

And speaking of articles for the mag, it's been a long time ago, so I 
don't

remember if the two articles I wrote dealing with Hi Q were published.
One told how to inexpensively make your own version of the game and what 
the

object of the puzzle game is, the other gave the solution  So, Ron, if you
have those articles, feel free to publish.  If you don't, I'll send them 
if

I still have them.

One more thing, and I do apologize for this lengthy post:  Where can I
download copies of all prior issues?  The folder that I had, containing 
all

of the prior issues, has somehow gotten deleted.  They make such good
reference material, I do want to get them all back.  Thanks much..

---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Shaun,

I think you are being overly pessimisticwhen it comes to your personal
views of the audio games community. Weather you realize it or not
there is quite a lot more going on than you have given credit for, and
I'd like to take this time to give some credit where credit is do and
perhaps give you a more positive outlook on the community in general.

Shaun wrote:

However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

My reply:

I think that's a little unfair. Ron has had a number of personal
issues to deal with, some he is willing to discuss and some he is not,
but as with game development its all pretty much done on a voluntary
basis, and I think you can give the guy a break for putting the
magazine off until he was mentally, emotionally, and physically up to
taking on the magazine again. If he can now dedicate himself to a
quarterly release schedule that's great. If not we should be
understanding enough to see that he is only one person and is doing
this voluntarily on his own time and energy.

Shaun wrote:

There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails sections
as these are shoved on the list.

My reply:

Not everyone is  on the Audyssey list. Many are over on the
audiogames.net forum, not on this list, and there are likely some
people who aren't on either the forum or list who receive the
magazine. The letters/e-mails section is a great way for them to keep
up to speed with events without having to sub to the list or forum.

Shaun wrote:

There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there are
to many to count.

My reply:

You make that sound like a bad thing, and it certainly is not. From my
perspective this makes the magazine all the more worth while as it
gives new freeware and open source developers another outlet to talk
about their games, announce their existence, and something we all can
read regardless of what list or forums we may be on.

While I might agree that someone's new Guess the Number game might not
be  particularly news or magazine worthy there have been a number of
free games that should be mentioned in the magazine. Jeremy has
released a surprising number of decent freeware games like Castaways
that certainly deserves mention in the magazine, and its possible

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-01 Thread darren harris
Hi tom,

I look forward to trying that out when the game comes out of beta. 

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 01 August 2011 01:38
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Darren,

Agreed. That was basically my point in my prior post on comparing Pull
to Duck Hunt. I don't think we should just accept a lower standard
because it is quicker, easier, it was a first game, whatever. There
are clear cut features that are easy enough to put in place and for
reasons only known to the developers who create the audio games they
aren't always followed or added.

For instance, take the analog jump system in Mysteries of the
Ancients. I've gotten a number of complaints about it simply because a
lot of VI gamers aren't use to timing a jump. Yet analog jumping has
been in about every mainstream game i can think of from Montezuma's
Revenge, to Super Mario Brothers, to Donkey Kong, to Tomb Raider. It
was actually something quite simple to add, and I find it a bit
surprising that I'm currently the only audio game developer using that
type of jump system in my games. That's just a small example of how
there is an existing standard in mainstream games that hasn't yet made
it into wide use in audio games yet.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 Hi tom,

 Well in the end, fact always wins over fiction. So really to be blunt
again,
 people need to stop burying their heads in the sand and face the music.
 These simple games aren't going to cut it in the real world. They're good
to
 practice on I can see the logic in that in terms of how to get code
working,
 but equally that doesn't to my mind justify a release each time. how many
 space invader clones do we have now? the only thing that hasn't really
been
 cloned to death is packman which is good because the job that Phil did
with
 packman talks is a masterpiece in it's own right.

 The facts are these:

 1. Developers are indeed starting from scratch and learning as they go.
This
 I accept and openly acknowledge. I can't programme for the life of me so
I'm
 not going to sit here and debate how easy or difficult x game is to
create.
 2. whether a person is self-taught or whether you go to school and learn,
we
 all have to start somewhere. Again I totally accept this. But with
 experience comes improved quality of product. It's just the same as with
any
 business venture. The longer you are in a given business providing you
 survive, the more you can refine and train yourself to do better, produce
a
 better product or service. So to put this into the gaming context, the
more
 you progress the better games you can produce and also there's plenty of
 knowledge and resources here to draw upon.

 In the mainstream gaming community, too much cloning will simply bore
people
 and you won't have the attention you once had. Which in the long run can
and
 will only serve to damage you.

 If the Audyssey Magazine is constantly full of these clones and there
isn't
 an effective streamlining process, then it will kill the Magazine. pure
and
 simple. Thus why gaming Magazines have a rating system for games and not
 everything gets in.

 At the end of the day, it's the people that drive the types of games that
 are produced and it's the Magazines that effectively report back to the
 people. So my question is, in order to support the masses, are we going to
 just accept that there can be a ton of low budget games out there to play
 that aren't too different from each other? or is a little time and
patients
 worth the increase in the quality of game? That is the trade-off isn't it.
 personally I'm content to sit back and see what happens. In other words,
let
 the developers do what they're best at. Let the newbies learn how to
develop
 to a set standard thus over time the wait will be less because the more
 progressing developers there are out there, the increase in titles we'll
see
 over time.

 If you yourself were working in the mainstream community and it was taking
 as long as it's taking you now to develop your game, the simple fact is
that
 until your game is released, people will go and play other titles because
 they are available and there. by adhering and accepting the lower quality
 games we're doing ourselves much more harm than good in the long run in my
 opinion.



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-01 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Jeremy,

Right. In that way we are thinking quite a lot alike. We each see
things that could be improved, new types of games to add to the
community, and all of it is to the good.

I also like your idea of someone writing an article in the Audyssey
Magazine covering various development aspects like game ideas,
features, control features, level layouts, etc that have been
successful and that worked out well for the game players at large. I
myself am experimenting with such issues right now in Mysteries of the
Ancients as some of the features I've added were not really tried in
an audio only format before. One of those is an analog jump system.
Which isn't really hard to add, but has been largely avoided until
now.

Of course, analog jumping has been present in every mainstream game
from Montezuma's Revenge, to Donkey Kong, to Super Mario Brothers,
right up to the present. The problem with that is though that since
you have to time or gauge the length of a jump that sometimes requires
a bit of site to see weather or not you need to do a short hop, a
short jump, or a very big jump to overcome the trap ahead. One way I
have dealt with this issue is by changing the pitch of the pits so you
can hear if the pit is large or small. A large chasm will have a
deeper wind sound than a smaller one. If a player comes upon a deep
windy sounding pit sound he or she might consider giving Angela a
run-up before jumping. If the chasm wind sound sounds higher he or she
can try and perform a standing jump. It is actually pretty accessible,
and I've found analog jumping can be just as accessible in an audio
only format as in a video format.


The only catch I think I've ran into in regards to analog jumping is
the players themselves. Many of them are use to a fixed jump, IE a
fixed length to jump, and often let up on the jump keys too quick or
too late ending up in the fire, lava, spikes, etc. I think though that
this issue can be solved with time and practice as its a slightly more
advanced type of jump than they are use to and they need time and
practice to get use to it.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
 Thank you Thomas.  It seems like we are on the same page here.  Of course we
 are concentrating on different things, the common thread is that we are
 seeing the importance of pushing forward.  You are hoping to push higher
 standards of development, I am trying to push for some different ideas that
 I haven't seen here, while I'm sure others are pushing for new interface
 ideas for existing game types.  In the future we need all of these things,
 and more!  We can't expect anyone to work on everything, but as long as we
 can get people pushing forward in their own unique way, it opens the door
 for the advancements to be combined.  It is inevitable that future
 developers will use game ideas someone had to pioneer, develop them to a
 quality standard someone had to push to happen, and use far greater controls
 which someone took the time to envision.  A person pushing advancements down
 any path, will eventually work its way into everything else.

 I wouldn't be qualified to handle this, but if anyone else feels up to it, I
 know what kind of articles I would be very interested in reading.  Pick some
 style of game that is popular now, I'll use side scroller as an example.
 Write about the earlier games that used the style, pointing out how each
 improved the style and raised the bar for the next game.  I would love to
 read about game ideas, control features, level layouts, and so forth that
 clearly worked well and then showed up in later games.  Detailing how
 changes solved past problems, and bringing attention to what problems still
 seem to exist today, will help encourage people to theorize their own
 solutions to the problems.  Just off of the top of my head, how pits or
 raised platforms are handled seems to be something of a current issue.
 People have tried different approaches in games, and I'm sure there Has! to
 have been a steady stream of advancement in this area.  I'm sure the
 sidescroller
  developers have ideas for how to further improve them down the road also.
 This kind of stuff is very interesting to me, because it would shed light on
 a puzzle which has been passed from developer to developer.  I might learn
 that my idea has been tried by someone, and I could read about how well or
 poorly it was received by the players.  Hopefully it would breed discussion,
 and speed up the rate of new advancements.

 I'm just tossing ideas out there.  It is always annoying when someone
 suggests that a job be done, but doesn't volunteer to do it himself, lol!
 For that, I apologize everyone!  :)

---
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-01 Thread darren harris
I think the problem is better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

In some ways the audio games community certainly our side of it has been
going round in circles for quite a few years with a few acceptions. So
really what needs to happen is for people to realise that there is something
good to be had from breaking the cycle.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 01 August 2011 10:06
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Jeremy,

Right. In that way we are thinking quite a lot alike. We each see
things that could be improved, new types of games to add to the
community, and all of it is to the good.

I also like your idea of someone writing an article in the Audyssey
Magazine covering various development aspects like game ideas,
features, control features, level layouts, etc that have been
successful and that worked out well for the game players at large. I
myself am experimenting with such issues right now in Mysteries of the
Ancients as some of the features I've added were not really tried in
an audio only format before. One of those is an analog jump system.
Which isn't really hard to add, but has been largely avoided until
now.

Of course, analog jumping has been present in every mainstream game
from Montezuma's Revenge, to Donkey Kong, to Super Mario Brothers,
right up to the present. The problem with that is though that since
you have to time or gauge the length of a jump that sometimes requires
a bit of site to see weather or not you need to do a short hop, a
short jump, or a very big jump to overcome the trap ahead. One way I
have dealt with this issue is by changing the pitch of the pits so you
can hear if the pit is large or small. A large chasm will have a
deeper wind sound than a smaller one. If a player comes upon a deep
windy sounding pit sound he or she might consider giving Angela a
run-up before jumping. If the chasm wind sound sounds higher he or she
can try and perform a standing jump. It is actually pretty accessible,
and I've found analog jumping can be just as accessible in an audio
only format as in a video format.


The only catch I think I've ran into in regards to analog jumping is
the players themselves. Many of them are use to a fixed jump, IE a
fixed length to jump, and often let up on the jump keys too quick or
too late ending up in the fire, lava, spikes, etc. I think though that
this issue can be solved with time and practice as its a slightly more
advanced type of jump than they are use to and they need time and
practice to get use to it.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
 Thank you Thomas.  It seems like we are on the same page here.  Of course
we
 are concentrating on different things, the common thread is that we are
 seeing the importance of pushing forward.  You are hoping to push higher
 standards of development, I am trying to push for some different ideas
that
 I haven't seen here, while I'm sure others are pushing for new interface
 ideas for existing game types.  In the future we need all of these things,
 and more!  We can't expect anyone to work on everything, but as long as we
 can get people pushing forward in their own unique way, it opens the door
 for the advancements to be combined.  It is inevitable that future
 developers will use game ideas someone had to pioneer, develop them to a
 quality standard someone had to push to happen, and use far greater
controls
 which someone took the time to envision.  A person pushing advancements
down
 any path, will eventually work its way into everything else.

 I wouldn't be qualified to handle this, but if anyone else feels up to it,
I
 know what kind of articles I would be very interested in reading.  Pick
some
 style of game that is popular now, I'll use side scroller as an example.
 Write about the earlier games that used the style, pointing out how each
 improved the style and raised the bar for the next game.  I would love to
 read about game ideas, control features, level layouts, and so forth that
 clearly worked well and then showed up in later games.  Detailing how
 changes solved past problems, and bringing attention to what problems
still
 seem to exist today, will help encourage people to theorize their own
 solutions to the problems.  Just off of the top of my head, how pits or
 raised platforms are handled seems to be something of a current issue.
 People have tried different approaches in games, and I'm sure there Has!
to
 have been a steady stream of advancement in this area.  I'm sure the
 sidescroller
  developers have ideas for how to further improve them down the road also.
 This kind of stuff is very interesting to me, because it would shed light
on
 a puzzle which has been passed from developer to developer.  I might learn
 that my idea has been tried by someone, and I could read about how well or
 poorly it was received

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-01 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

I'm afraid you completely missed the point. Weather someone has
updated equipment, programs in language x, whatever really has nothing
to do with it. It has more to do with the fact there are certain
common features I would call standards in mainstream games that don't
often get included in audio games because the developer doesn't know
about them or he or she doesn't know how to program it. Either way it
is something of a problem as we are in a sense accepting a lower
standard or quality of games because of it.

I'll return to my comparison of Pull to Dunk Hunt I posted to the list
yesterday. Pull is a simple game in concept, which is perfectly fine
as far as that goes, but it lacks many common features a game like
Duck Hunt has which would improve the game play if they were added.
Things like increasing the speed of the clay pigeons after each round,
randomly changing the direction where the clay pigeons are launched
from, add more clay pigeons to target, a dedicated scoring system,
high score board, perhaps two-player mode, etc isn't really all that
much to ask. These are fairly simple additions or features that could
be made to improve the game to make it more like mainstream games of
that genre or type. You see what I mean?

This has absolutely nothing to do with system specs, 64bit, and all
this stuff you seem to think is required to catch up to the
mainstream. I'd agree if we were talking Doom 3D or Star Wars Battle
Front with 3d graphics etc, but we aren't. We are talking about how
various games, even simple games like Pull, could be improved just by
adding more challenges, features, etc more commonly found in
mainstream games. In fact, I can safely  say a game like Pull could be
written in something like visual Basic 6, DirectX 7, and built for
Windows 95, a Pentium 133 processor, and 32 MB of ram, and still
support all of the mainstream features I mentioned above. These kinds
of things don't necessarily  require huge changes in the game or state
of the art hardware and software.

The same kinds of changes could be suggested about a game like Sarah.
Now, I'm a big fan of SCW, play it all the time, but there are things
here and there I think would make the game just a bit better. One of
those is rather than faking 3d movement by having Sarah flying on the
broom by setting a flag it would be a bit more realistic to rewrite
the game with full realistic 3d movement so Sarah can fly up/down,
left/right, forward/backward on the broom in 3d space. The same holds
for the pond/lake where Sarah should be able to swim up/down,
left/right, forward/backward, but she can't. It would be nice to
rewrite the map of Hogwarts so the rooms line up on top of each other
rather than the basement being basically just another room or area of
the same floor. The problem is that everything in Sarah is pancake
flat and that's not at all realistic. It isn't something a mainstream
developer would necessarily do given the same type of game. However,
I'm well aware the GMA Engine doesn't really have the ability to do
what I suggest, which is too bad, but all the same that's not really
my point. Its just that we often get use to overlooking features and
development standards often found in the mainstream game industry when
creating a similar type of game, and I honestly feel that we are
cutting ourselves short because of it.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 well tom its safe to say that most of us here are just starting.
 Most don't have your background.
 I sertainly don't.
 When I started the most complex game I knew was intergalactic battle
 a graphics/menu game.
 Yes compaired to mainstream we are probably not that attractive.
 The point is that we have been stagnating in emulated arcade.
 Its not a bad thing but if we need to move foreward we will have to
 bite the bullet and try to go mainstream etc.
 Which brings up an interesting thing.
 Unless you are sighted and know what stuff was  then you won't know
 what to really do.
 I have never been sighted in my life.
 You can go left right up down run left and right and jump.
 I know that mainstream stuff goes so much more than that.
 But there are limits in sounds, the number of sounds, etc.
 Then there is the fact most of us don't have updated equipment.
 And even if we have its not the most up to date.
 Ie I have what would be quite an ancient second generation dulecore
 with no real hard drive or memmory requirements running on an
 extremely insecure os, and old ish hardware that won't go anywhere
 and being unable to run major things.
 We are limited at least for a while to the fact most people will
 still have 32 bit systems.
 I know for a fact a few still have single core systems.
 Some may still use dos 6 and win98 still.
 With acceptions with those with linux or apple mac systems Hmmm not sure.
 Basically we are stuck with simple for a while I think until we get
 64 bit fully then we will be behind again.

 So before we move 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-01 Thread Darren Duff
I was wondering how you were going to handle that so we wouldn't have to die
every time lol. 

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 5:06 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Jeremy,

Right. In that way we are thinking quite a lot alike. We each see things
that could be improved, new types of games to add to the community, and all
of it is to the good.

I also like your idea of someone writing an article in the Audyssey Magazine
covering various development aspects like game ideas, features, control
features, level layouts, etc that have been successful and that worked out
well for the game players at large. I myself am experimenting with such
issues right now in Mysteries of the Ancients as some of the features I've
added were not really tried in an audio only format before. One of those is
an analog jump system.
Which isn't really hard to add, but has been largely avoided until now.

Of course, analog jumping has been present in every mainstream game from
Montezuma's Revenge, to Donkey Kong, to Super Mario Brothers, right up to
the present. The problem with that is though that since you have to time or
gauge the length of a jump that sometimes requires a bit of site to see
weather or not you need to do a short hop, a short jump, or a very big jump
to overcome the trap ahead. One way I have dealt with this issue is by
changing the pitch of the pits so you can hear if the pit is large or small.
A large chasm will have a deeper wind sound than a smaller one. If a player
comes upon a deep windy sounding pit sound he or she might consider giving
Angela a run-up before jumping. If the chasm wind sound sounds higher he or
she can try and perform a standing jump. It is actually pretty accessible,
and I've found analog jumping can be just as accessible in an audio only
format as in a video format.


The only catch I think I've ran into in regards to analog jumping is the
players themselves. Many of them are use to a fixed jump, IE a fixed length
to jump, and often let up on the jump keys too quick or too late ending up
in the fire, lava, spikes, etc. I think though that this issue can be solved
with time and practice as its a slightly more advanced type of jump than
they are use to and they need time and practice to get use to it.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
 Thank you Thomas.  It seems like we are on the same page here.  Of 
 course we are concentrating on different things, the common thread is 
 that we are seeing the importance of pushing forward.  You are hoping 
 to push higher standards of development, I am trying to push for some 
 different ideas that I haven't seen here, while I'm sure others are 
 pushing for new interface ideas for existing game types.  In the 
 future we need all of these things, and more!  We can't expect anyone 
 to work on everything, but as long as we can get people pushing 
 forward in their own unique way, it opens the door for the 
 advancements to be combined.  It is inevitable that future developers 
 will use game ideas someone had to pioneer, develop them to a quality 
 standard someone had to push to happen, and use far greater controls 
 which someone took the time to envision.  A person pushing advancements
down any path, will eventually work its way into everything else.

 I wouldn't be qualified to handle this, but if anyone else feels up to 
 it, I know what kind of articles I would be very interested in 
 reading.  Pick some style of game that is popular now, I'll use side
scroller as an example.
 Write about the earlier games that used the style, pointing out how 
 each improved the style and raised the bar for the next game.  I would 
 love to read about game ideas, control features, level layouts, and so 
 forth that clearly worked well and then showed up in later games.  
 Detailing how changes solved past problems, and bringing attention to 
 what problems still seem to exist today, will help encourage people to 
 theorize their own solutions to the problems.  Just off of the top of 
 my head, how pits or raised platforms are handled seems to be something of
a current issue.
 People have tried different approaches in games, and I'm sure there 
 Has! to have been a steady stream of advancement in this area.  I'm 
 sure the sidescroller  developers have ideas for how to further 
 improve them down the road also.
 This kind of stuff is very interesting to me, because it would shed 
 light on a puzzle which has been passed from developer to developer.  
 I might learn that my idea has been tried by someone, and I could read 
 about how well or poorly it was received by the players.  Hopefully it 
 would breed discussion, and speed up the rate of new advancements.

 I'm just tossing ideas out there.  It is always annoying when someone 
 suggests that a job be done, but doesn't

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-08-01 Thread Charles Rivard
I see where you're shooting from.  I certainly see how these additions make 
an extremely simple game into one that has a lot of challenge and replay 
value.


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



Hi Charles and all,

Yes and no. Certainly it helps to have a large team of developers,
lots of money for bigger and better games, etc but that's not really
what Darren and I are getting at all. It has more to do with specific
features and standards that have already been set by mainstream games
similar to the one in which you intend to create. Even simple games
have standards already set by mainstream developers that should
attempt to be met when and where possible. Here is a clear cut example
of what I mean.

For instance, I'm going to compare the game Pull to a mainstream game
similar to it, and hopefully shed some constructive criticism how Pull
could be better if just a few features were added that is common in
mainstream arcade games. Now, I am fully aware it was the developers
first release, the developer is totally new programmer, and so on but
the fact still remains it has a ways to go to compare to a similar
mainstream game. At the moment the closest thing that comes to mind is
Duck Hunt for the classic NES.

In Pull someone launches clay pigeons from the left, they pass in
front of you, and you must load your shotgun and shoot them.  In Duck
Hunt Ducks will appear from the left or the right and pass in front of
you, and you must shoot them down. As I said its a similar concept,
but that's where the similarities begin and end as Duck Hunt is in
many respects a more complex game.

First, is the matter of difficulty or challenge. In Pull the speed of
the pigeons doesn't seem to change from round to round so you can
litterally keep shooting them and the game doesn't seem to get any
harder. In Duck Hunt every round or level gets a bit faster making it
harder and harder to shoot the ducks because the speed increases as
you rack up the rounds.

Second, is alternative directions. In Pull the pigeons always start
from the left side and fly right. In Duck Hunt ducks can start from
either the left or right, and it seems to be pretty random. So that
can throw you off as you never know which side the target will be
coming from.

Third, is multiple targets. In Pull there only seems to be a maximum
of one pigeon at a time. In Duck Hunt, depending on difficulty,  you
might have one, two, and sometimes three ducks on screen at once
making it much more challenging to get them all before they fly off
screen.

Fourth, two-player mode. In Pull there is only a single player mode.
In Duck Hunt, like most classic arcade games, it allowed you to set
the game up for single-player or two-player mode so you and a friend
could compete for the highest score.

Finally, the ability to actually aim your gun. In Pull the shotgun is
fixed dead center in the screen and won't allow you to move the gun
around. In Duck Hunt there was a NES controller, a gun that plugged
into the console, that allowed you to move the gun around on the
screen, site ducks, and shoot them down. You weren't just fixed in one
place.

As I said all of these points are raised in the hopes that they will
be taken as constructive criticism, and more over what I am suggesting
here isn't all that difficult for a single developer to add. It is not
necessarily comparing grapes to grapefruit, because I'm comparing two
games that are similar enough to each other to share the same kinds of
features, same type of game play, but don't have the same features or
quality because the developer probably didn't think those features
were necessary. Its simply that there are standards that have been set
by companies like Nintendo, even for a simple game like Duck Hunt, and
anything less than similar features and game play is below what I and
many mainstream gamers would see as par for that type of game. Many of
these improvements don't have to be particularly major, but it would
help if the developer would do his or her best to meet some kind of
mainstream standards like that when and where possible. The game
doesn't have to be the next Shades of Doom or Mysteries of the
Ancients to be mainstream quality. It just requires researching what
similar games have and try to add those kinds of features to their own
game if at all possible.

Cheers!



On 7/31/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Then again, if you were working for a company that produces mainstream
games, there would be a whole group of co-workers.  In our community, 
there

are not.  There would be a huge budget from which to draw, and in our
community, there is not.  You would make a very good salary doing what 
you
do, and in our community, you are not.  To me, unless I'm

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

hmmm.
Ron, I'd say just chuck the whole thing out here.
However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you 
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

Origionally I think there was like  a 4 times a year schedual.
But the mag comes out so infrequently now barely twice a year that I 
think it should be reduced.
There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails 
sections as these are shoved on the list.

There is almost no need for the mag apart from the articles sections.
I am not even sure if the game relases are even needed since most of 
them when we get them are really old and outdated.
Except for the few that may not have net access the jmajority of game 
releases letters and announcements appear on audiogames.net and this list.
There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there 
are to many to count.
There are no more than 6 or so comercial companies that exist, and 
only 5 of those actually still exist, well maybe there is more 6 
existing, within this group, most of them bar usagames and lworks are 
still realeasing stuff hmmm and xsight the rest have not released 
stuff in ages.

I am not saying stop the mag  or anything.
Neither am I trying to bash you for not doing your job or anything 
but I strongly feel something needs to happen on that front.

When the mag started  there was no net, Even I read it.
However after about 2005 or so loads of people went broadband there 
is now literally loads of things going on, disks and such are gone.

Its the age of the cd, dvd and blueray disk as well as flash disk.
Its also the age of the digital download.
Development has slowed to barely a crawl.
With most of the devs either out of business, sitting on their buts 
as far as the rest probably cares or working on their projects 
without putting out any news, and a few other things the major 
community as it stands comercially is quite dead and bare.
Jim kitchen is the only person doing any real stuff and that  has 
slowed its mostly been data updates.

Spoonbill is doing something still.
Both draconis, pcs and gma are aparently still in development but no 
real news as of yet.
Xsight is in development and is active right now though nothing new 
has come out lately.

Well not since january I think.
Lworks is still active though with liam doing a job running slower than usual.
Bavisoft is dead and code factory has shifted its focus away from pc games.
Usagames is still in the running.
Blastbay that was pb games has created bgt which has managed to keep 
us alive with opensource free projects.
Audiogames.net and its forums have sporned loads and loads of small 
devs which have kept the game industry alive though no real big 
things have come out for a bit at least not enough to call the 
community fully alive.

I am not sure what of the old system is still running.
Presume dungions and draggons is still active though with the mag 
only twice a year stories are well taking  one only good space in the mag.
Most series like imortal gamer and game rescue unit are done which 
was the reason I really read the mag.

So hmmm I really am not sure where to go from here.
I do think something needs to be done with the mag though.
I think well am sure that what we get on the mag is more up to date 
than the mag is now.
We almost need something set so we can have something out more than 
twice a year, granted more than 1 person will need to edit it or 
release it in a timly manner.
Then again, we have so much free stuff now that we will need to 
concerntrate on things.
I guess if we start including links to forums and things on some of 
the free games like aprones stuff and such things like the mods etc 
that may be a new thing but The mag is deffinetly getting shorter.

At 04:09 a.m. 31/07/2011, you wrote:

Hi everyone

  I thought I would send this here to get feedback from this section of the
list.  This will also go out to the mag only group as well.
  Granted I know it has been quite some time without an issue.  In order to
catch up my thoughts were as follows.
  Send out issue #55 as it stands, then after sifting through the recovered
emails send a supplement covering the released games since #54.  The
potential articles I'll keep until the next issue.
  I am curious about how often you folks are interested in the mag, true
alot of the material shows up here to my chagrin.  So how often would be
good to wrap it up as an email newsletter?
  The folks on the mag only naturally haven't seen any of this conversation
but I will send this to them as well.  Yes I did drop the ball.  For many
reasons which I may or may not explain but I do sincerely want to keep
Audyssey going.
  My inbox is open for any thoughts you may have.  Comments and such are
always welcome, #55 will be out tomorrow at the latest, and a further
announcement of games once I go through all the recovered emails.  Thanks to
Damian for the program to do that.
  Looking forward to some input from folks.

Take 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss
on that note not that I want to detract from the mag or anything but 
we really need to branch into other formats like audio.

Ofcause people could record things etc and I could probably put those together.
I have time I'd need the place to put it up but i probably at least 
for the moment could put up stuff on a small schedual, at least semi 
reggularly.
Ofcause this stuff if it got serious would either have to be 
donationware or subscription based or something as I would eventually 
have to buy a web site and domain which could be quite expensive.
I know where I can get a good deal but at 160-200 a year to double 
that for a site and domain it does not come cheap.
I experemented last month with a free site which didn't work well at 
all but I am confordent I could have a small wordpress site, and a 
downloads folder with no restrictions where people could grab things, 
Ofcause I have dropbox to.

Still would have to think on what I would have to do about that.
It may for example be cheaper to get a free webhost like 000webhost 
and upgrade my dropbox, but then use some external drives to host the 
files rather than the main drive or something.
maybe get a sepperate system to handle things with a seperate dropbox 
if I could do  that.

At 07:53 a.m. 31/07/2011, you wrote:

Hi Ron,

That sounds fair in terms of catching the community up on past news
for the magazine, but I do have some concerns. For instance, I am
pretty sure I sent you some kind of press releases for MOTA. I would
hate to see you send out an announcement for say beta 17 when I'm
about to release beta 21 on Monday. I'm away from home today, but I
have plans to finish work on beta 21 this weekend so if there are any
past announcements for MOTA I'd prefer to pull them from the mag.

HTH

On 7/30/11, Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca wrote:
 Hi everyone

   I thought I would send this here to get feedback from this section of the
 list.  This will also go out to the mag only group as well.
   Granted I know it has been quite some time without an issue.  In order to
 catch up my thoughts were as follows.
   Send out issue #55 as it stands, then after sifting through the recovered
 emails send a supplement covering the released games since #54.  The
 potential articles I'll keep until the next issue.
   I am curious about how often you folks are interested in the mag, true
 alot of the material shows up here to my chagrin.  So how often would be
 good to wrap it up as an email newsletter?
   The folks on the mag only naturally haven't seen any of this conversation
 but I will send this to them as well.  Yes I did drop the ball.  For many
 reasons which I may or may not explain but I do sincerely want to keep
 Audyssey going.
   My inbox is open for any thoughts you may have.  Comments and such are
 always welcome, #55 will be out tomorrow at the latest, and a further
 announcement of games once I go through all the recovered 
emails.  Thanks to

 Damian for the program to do that.
   Looking forward to some input from folks.

 Take care
 Ron Schamerhorn
 blindwon...@cogeco.ca
 Audyssey Editor


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss
well if you need any extra assistance I'll always be avalible to 
assist the community even if I get a job.

 THe net is where I wind down and spend most of my life.
At 09:14 a.m. 31/07/2011, you wrote:

Hi Dark

  I encourage everyone to write about some aspect of gaming.  Maybe a review
of their favourite game, the best gamepad, what they like in ambiance or
whatever.
  I don't think I've ever missed publishing something that has been sent to
me.  I'm now of renewed spirit, ready to get it done, and keep it going for
along time.

Thanks for the vote
Ron

- Original Message -
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron.

i'm pleased the mag is back.

while it's true the announcements in the mag really are duplicated on list
or on audiogames.net (though obviously there ar people who do not check
those places), for me it's the articals, reviews and editorials that are the
interesting point.

Having a more formal setting and distribution means that people are more
inclined to write seriously and considder what they are writing than just
dashing off a quick response.

for this reason i'm very happy that the mag is back, and would certainly
like it to continue coming out once every few months, though i might suggest
that perhaps submissions be a litle more formal and you give us reminders
when your looking for stuff, sinse obviously publishing in the mag is
something which should be considdered.

this is what spag and other web zeense have done, concentrated on more
formal submission of materials, and become more like a professional printed
magazine.

Btw, formal does not equal boring, comedy stuff and funny materials are
deffinately good too, I just mean encouraging people to take the time to
write and think carefully, including better jokes.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

This is really cool news.
However my issue is I never know when its going to come out or what is up.
There used to be a schedual and everyone knew when it was going to come out.
We never missed a release date and where we were going to we were 
always notified.

At 09:38 a.m. 31/07/2011, you wrote:

This is fantastic news! I've really missed the magazine. I'll be writing for
it again I used to enjoy the stuff I would produce a few years ago.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of dark
Sent: 30 July 2011 22:26
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Ron.

well if that is the case, please let me know if your looking for articals,
as obviously i would be interested in trying another myself, but also I can
stick something on the audiogames.net site to the affect that anyone wanting
to write a review or artical can send it to you for publication.

there has been some discussion about a review section for the site and some
people wanting to write reviews, so if your publishing the mag again and
including reviews there may well be some other people who'd like to
contribute.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

I think you are being overly pessimisticwhen it comes to your personal
views of the audio games community. Weather you realize it or not
there is quite a lot more going on than you have given credit for, and
I'd like to take this time to give some credit where credit is do and
perhaps give you a more positive outlook on the community in general.

Shaun wrote:

However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

My reply:

I think that's a little unfair. Ron has had a number of personal
issues to deal with, some he is willing to discuss and some he is not,
but as with game development its all pretty much done on a voluntary
basis, and I think you can give the guy a break for putting the
magazine off until he was mentally, emotionally, and physically up to
taking on the magazine again. If he can now dedicate himself to a
quarterly release schedule that's great. If not we should be
understanding enough to see that he is only one person and is doing
this voluntarily on his own time and energy.

Shaun wrote:

There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails sections
as these are shoved on the list.

My reply:

Not everyone is  on the Audyssey list. Many are over on the
audiogames.net forum, not on this list, and there are likely some
people who aren't on either the forum or list who receive the
magazine. The letters/e-mails section is a great way for them to keep
up to speed with events without having to sub to the list or forum.

Shaun wrote:

There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there are
to many to count.

My reply:

You make that sound like a bad thing, and it certainly is not. From my
perspective this makes the magazine all the more worth while as it
gives new freeware and open source developers another outlet to talk
about their games, announce their existence, and something we all can
read regardless of what list or forums we may be on.

While I might agree that someone's new Guess the Number game might not
be  particularly news or magazine worthy there have been a number of
free games that should be mentioned in the magazine. Jeremy has
released a surprising number of decent freeware games like Castaways
that certainly deserves mention in the magazine, and its possible
there are plenty of VI gamers who haven't tried Jeremy's games simply
because they are so new and perhaps just haven't heard the news.

Shaun wrote:

Development has slowed to barely a crawl. With most of the devs either
out of business, sitting on their buts as far as the rest probably
cares or working on their projects without putting out any news, and a
few other things the major community as it stands comercially is quite
dead and bare.

My reply:

I really think that is pretty unfair. Blind Adrenaline is continuing
to add games to the card room, and Che has become a leading commercial
developer because of it. Blastbay Studios, AKA Philip Bennefall, has
released a number of commercial and freeware products in a row
including BGT, Q9, Kryngle Crash, Palace Punch-Up, and is working on a
new commercial game as we speak. GMA released Time of Conflict last
year. BPC Programs released 3D Velocity in this past year as well.
Mysteries of the Ancients, my current commercial project, is scheduled
for release this fall. My point being that far from dead commercial
audio game developers have picked up production rather than slowed
down as you seem to suggest above.

Shaun wrote:

Jim kitchen is the only person doing any real stuff and that  has
slowed its mostly been data updates.

My reply:

Even if that were true there is nothing wrong with updates and
upgrades. However, Jim Kitchen has released Awesome Homer as well as
TJS in the past year in addition to those data updates you
mentioned. That's not bad for a single developer.

However, Jim isn't the only one doing stuff. Good grief, man, Jeremy
has released several games in the last year, and it would make sense
to give the guy a little bit of credit where credit is do. He has
actually been giving the audio games community more games to play
around with in the last few months than we have seen in years. So
saying boo who the audio games community is dead is far from the
truth.

Shaun wrote:

Both draconis, pcs and gma are aparently still in development but no
real news as of yet.

My reply:

Just because you don't get a news letter mailed to your inbox each
month doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. GMA consistantly
releases a new game on a 24 month schedule, and months usually do go
by before we hear about the latest and greatest products from GMA.
Draconis is being pretty tight mouthed about what they are doing, but
its understandable. If they say they are working on game x the next
thing the community will do is ask, and ask, and ask over and over
again when will game x be released. Developers simply do not want
that kind of pressure. As for PCS no we haven't seen the new update

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

Well, with all do respect if we went to audio instead of a webzine
then in effect what we would have is a podcast. While I agree an
Audyssey podcast would be cool their are already technology podcasts
like this available such as those on Blind Cool tech. I don't think we
should confuse the magazine with a different format like a podcast as
we could certainly have both if that were something the community
would be interested in.

cheers!

On 7/31/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 on that note not that I want to detract from the mag or anything but
 we really need to branch into other formats like audio.
 Ofcause people could record things etc and I could probably put those
 together.
 I have time I'd need the place to put it up but i probably at least
 for the moment could put up stuff on a small schedual, at least semi
 reggularly.
 Ofcause this stuff if it got serious would either have to be
 donationware or subscription based or something as I would eventually
 have to buy a web site and domain which could be quite expensive.
 I know where I can get a good deal but at 160-200 a year to double
 that for a site and domain it does not come cheap.
 I experemented last month with a free site which didn't work well at
 all but I am confordent I could have a small wordpress site, and a
 downloads folder with no restrictions where people could grab things,
 Ofcause I have dropbox to.
 Still would have to think on what I would have to do about that.
 It may for example be cheaper to get a free webhost like 000webhost
 and upgrade my dropbox, but then use some external drives to host the
 files rather than the main drive or something.
 maybe get a sepperate system to handle things with a seperate dropbox
 if I could do  that.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread darren harris
hi tom and all,

the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
effective this community can be.

Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and many
other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
accessibility in other game titles.

There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than there
are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution is
and can only be a good thing. 

I would say though however that the content does need to be more
streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting this community viewed
more favourably by a mainstream community, we aren't going to do it with
numbers games and Simon says type games. We have so many of those that quite
honestly we don't need any more and to be blunt the Magazine doesn't need it
either. It's poor representation.

Am not trying to offend anybody, far from it but equally it has to be said
that things do need to change with regards to what is brought out by some.
Having said that I think the Magazine does offer much more positive things
than negative on the whole. It just depends on what content is included. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi

  Indeed doing a mag and a podcast would be an option.  As for the format 
I'd have to give that some thought about articles, announcements and 
reviews.  Though It would offer an opportunity to demo as well as announce 
new games.  It's worth considering if there is enough interest.

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Shaun,

Well, with all do respect if we went to audio instead of a webzine
then in effect what we would have is a podcast. While I agree an
Audyssey podcast would be cool their are already technology podcasts
like this available such as those on Blind Cool tech. I don't think we
should confuse the magazine with a different format like a podcast as
we could certainly have both if that were something the community
would be interested in.

cheers!

On 7/31/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 on that note not that I want to detract from the mag or anything but
 we really need to branch into other formats like audio.
 Ofcause people could record things etc and I could probably put those
 together.
 I have time I'd need the place to put it up but i probably at least
 for the moment could put up stuff on a small schedual, at least semi
 reggularly.
 Ofcause this stuff if it got serious would either have to be
 donationware or subscription based or something as I would eventually
 have to buy a web site and domain which could be quite expensive.
 I know where I can get a good deal but at 160-200 a year to double
 that for a site and domain it does not come cheap.
 I experemented last month with a free site which didn't work well at
 all but I am confordent I could have a small wordpress site, and a
 downloads folder with no restrictions where people could grab things,
 Ofcause I have dropbox to.
 Still would have to think on what I would have to do about that.
 It may for example be cheaper to get a free webhost like 000webhost
 and upgrade my dropbox, but then use some external drives to host the
 files rather than the main drive or something.
 maybe get a sepperate system to handle things with a seperate dropbox
 if I could do  that.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Darren

  Good points indeed.  I'm always open to suggestions about the content of 
the mag.
  As for the simon says games I see it as a catch 22.  By this I mean it's 
probably easy enough from a programming point.  Any new developers are going 
to walk before they run so to speak.  True there have been a few who sprint 
as a new dev and deserve mention even if it's been done before.
  As for the games not made with the blind in mind You Don't Know Jack is a 
fine example of it.  It's a wild and humourous   trivia game that's about 
90% accessible.  That might be right up someone's alley but as a blind gamer 
myself I don't buy many PC games without knowing if it works.
  I appreciate the good thoughts and encourage the input, by knowing what is 
liked or not helps to streamline things.

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com
To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


hi tom and all,

the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
effective this community can be.

Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and many
other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
accessibility in other game titles.

There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than there
are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution is
and can only be a good thing.

I would say though however that the content does need to be more
streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting this community viewed
more favourably by a mainstream community, we aren't going to do it with
numbers games and Simon says type games. We have so many of those that quite
honestly we don't need any more and to be blunt the Magazine doesn't need it
either. It's poor representation.

Am not trying to offend anybody, far from it but equally it has to be said
that things do need to change with regards to what is brought out by some.
Having said that I think the Magazine does offer much more positive things
than negative on the whole. It just depends on what content is included.



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Tom

  Thanks for understanding about how one's life can interupt the best of 
intentions.  It has most likely happened to everyone at some time or other.
  There indeed were and in some respects still are alot going on in life 
outside of the gaming community.  I'm not offering this as an excuse but to 
explain.  My parents now live across the hall from me in my apartment 
building, I'm not kidding I'm 303  they are at 304.  Between my mother and 
nephew in the last year they've been hospitalized about 10 times in the last 
year for various reasons.  My divorce and the way it went down didn't help 
in me feeling good about life at all.  I could go on but want to reply to 
other comments.
  Indeed there's the magazine only list [I hope Raul soon responds] which 
only get the issues.  These folks may or may not be at audiogames.  So this 
could be the only method of them keeping up with what's going on.
  I'll put any developers in an issue.  Any game they've put out is worthy 
of mention.  Granted it might be hangman but for dev x it's their first 
release.  I'd hope to encourage the effort rather then ignore it thinking 
oh crap it's been done already.
  The number of releases has indeed kept up.  Besides those you mention 
there's 15 or so freeware games that Spoonbill has released, Kitchens Inc, 
and probably others that aren't coming to mind.  True big products like 
Entombed, MOTA, and such the community almost expects something big, but 
let's not forget those devs who consistently bring us a game in the wait 
time.
  Agreed on the point of Castaways.  I mean no offense to Jeremy with the 
following.  It's spouted loads of conversation on this list, and I'd imagine 
the audiogames forum.  While I'm not a typical forum reader [truth be told 
it confuses me] he's done many games with inovative concepts and the games 
are free how cool is that!
  Not meaning to repeat myself hear but quite right.  Audyssey when it 
started PCS and Kitchen's Inc were the main players with alot of IF thrown 
in as that was all there was for the blind/vi community.  I feel we've 
covered more ground in those years then the 'normal' community.  Think about 
it, console/pc gaming has been out for 30 or so years.  Audio gaming has had 
aproximatley half of that lifespan.  But look where we were and where we are 
now.  It's loads of progress in a much shorter time.  Personally I am 
thrilled to be part of this rapidly expanding group.  We've really heard 
*coughs* what can be done with sound in games.  So here's to the future!

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Shaun,

I think you are being overly pessimisticwhen it comes to your personal
views of the audio games community. Weather you realize it or not
there is quite a lot more going on than you have given credit for, and
I'd like to take this time to give some credit where credit is do and
perhaps give you a more positive outlook on the community in general.

Shaun wrote:

However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

My reply:

I think that's a little unfair. Ron has had a number of personal
issues to deal with, some he is willing to discuss and some he is not,
but as with game development its all pretty much done on a voluntary
basis, and I think you can give the guy a break for putting the
magazine off until he was mentally, emotionally, and physically up to
taking on the magazine again. If he can now dedicate himself to a
quarterly release schedule that's great. If not we should be
understanding enough to see that he is only one person and is doing
this voluntarily on his own time and energy.

Shaun wrote:

There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails sections
as these are shoved on the list.

My reply:

Not everyone is  on the Audyssey list. Many are over on the
audiogames.net forum, not on this list, and there are likely some
people who aren't on either the forum or list who receive the
magazine. The letters/e-mails section is a great way for them to keep
up to speed with events without having to sub to the list or forum.

Shaun wrote:

There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there are
to many to count.

My reply:

You make that sound like a bad thing, and it certainly is not. From my
perspective this makes the magazine all the more worth while as it
gives new freeware and open source developers another outlet to talk
about their games, announce their existence, and something we all can
read regardless of what list or forums we may be on.

While I might agree that someone's new Guess the Number game might not
be  particularly news or magazine worthy there have been a number of
free games that should be mentioned in the magazine. Jeremy has
released a surprising number of decent freeware games

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Darren,

I do agree that the magazine could be streamlined by cutting out and
removing certain content that isn't up to par so to speak. Announcing
every simple freeware or amateur game might not be in our best
interests if we are hoping mainstream developers and gamers into our
ranks. Games like Guess the Numberor BopIt arent' that news worthy,
and I frankly feel that they probably shouldn't get much public
attention from the magazine.

I do think that we should be more professional about how we handle the
magazine and take our queue from professional gaming magazines. This
isn't being intended to be a put down, but mainstream magazines
generally don't publish news and articles on every single practice or
ametur game like Fred's Guess the Number out there. They tend to
publish articles and news based on established developers who have
reached a certain degree of quality and would be of interest to their
readers. If that sounds elitest so be it, but it doesn't hurt to think
about if the game being discussed would be of any real value to the
community at large rather than just filling space.

Let's be fair here. I know exactly how difficult it is to learn to
program, how much time, skill, and energy goes into programming games.
Every single developer starts with something extremely simple like
Blackjack, Guess the Number, or Paper Scissors Rock because they
require very little programming skill and experience to create. Every
developer starts with such simple games and slowly but surely create
more and more complex practice games until they are able to create the
next Shades of Doom or tank Commander. While there is nothing wrong
with helping a amateur developer with improving his/her Guess the
Number or Paper Scissors Rock game they are still only practice
amateur games. Such amateur developers should probably hold off
releasing anything official until they have released a product that
meets a reasonable standard of quality. Of course, what I would
consider a reasonable standard and what someone might consider a
reasonable standard could be quite different.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 hi tom and all,

 the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
 effective this community can be.

 Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
 games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
 some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
 along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

 Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
 people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
 designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
 accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and many
 other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
 does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
 accessibility in other game titles.

 There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than there
 are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
 people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
 practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
 audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution is
 and can only be a good thing.

 I would say though however that the content does need to be more
 streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting this community viewed
 more favourably by a mainstream community, we aren't going to do it with
 numbers games and Simon says type games. We have so many of those that quite
 honestly we don't need any more and to be blunt the Magazine doesn't need it
 either. It's poor representation.

 Am not trying to offend anybody, far from it but equally it has to be said
 that things do need to change with regards to what is brought out by some.
 Having said that I think the Magazine does offer much more positive things
 than negative on the whole. It just depends on what content is included.



 ---
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 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ron,

Definitely. While I have my doubts about including every Hangman game
that comes along that's just my personal opinion. Over all, though, I
am pretty sure the audio games community at large is growing,
improving, and things are only getting better. Sooner or later those
people who purchased and are learning BGT will stop developing what I
would call amateur practice games and be able to produce something
of a higher quality. Its just a matter of giving them enough time to
learn and grow is all. So in that sense encurraging them to continue
is a very good idea.

The idea that the audio games community is dead or is dying is pretty
rediculous in light of where we have been and where we are going.
Yeah, Code Factory has come and gone, Bavisoft up and left the
community, ESP was sold to Draconis, XL Studeos closed, etc but those
are only inconveniences. In the time since all those things happened I
have started USA Games, Che has started Blind Adrenaline, Jeremy has
started producing games, and we have a fairly active community of
amateur open source developers trying out BGT, Python, VB, etc. In
short, what we have gained is far greater than what we have lost.

Cheers!




On 7/31/11, Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca wrote:
 Hi Tom

   Thanks for understanding about how one's life can interupt the best of
 intentions.  It has most likely happened to everyone at some time or other.
   There indeed were and in some respects still are alot going on in life
 outside of the gaming community.  I'm not offering this as an excuse but to
 explain.  My parents now live across the hall from me in my apartment
 building, I'm not kidding I'm 303  they are at 304.  Between my mother and
 nephew in the last year they've been hospitalized about 10 times in the last
 year for various reasons.  My divorce and the way it went down didn't help
 in me feeling good about life at all.  I could go on but want to reply to
 other comments.
   Indeed there's the magazine only list [I hope Raul soon responds] which
 only get the issues.  These folks may or may not be at audiogames.  So this
 could be the only method of them keeping up with what's going on.
   I'll put any developers in an issue.  Any game they've put out is worthy
 of mention.  Granted it might be hangman but for dev x it's their first
 release.  I'd hope to encourage the effort rather then ignore it thinking
 oh crap it's been done already.
   The number of releases has indeed kept up.  Besides those you mention
 there's 15 or so freeware games that Spoonbill has released, Kitchens Inc,
 and probably others that aren't coming to mind.  True big products like
 Entombed, MOTA, and such the community almost expects something big, but
 let's not forget those devs who consistently bring us a game in the wait
 time.
   Agreed on the point of Castaways.  I mean no offense to Jeremy with the
 following.  It's spouted loads of conversation on this list, and I'd imagine
 the audiogames forum.  While I'm not a typical forum reader [truth be told
 it confuses me] he's done many games with inovative concepts and the games
 are free how cool is that!
   Not meaning to repeat myself hear but quite right.  Audyssey when it
 started PCS and Kitchen's Inc were the main players with alot of IF thrown
 in as that was all there was for the blind/vi community.  I feel we've
 covered more ground in those years then the 'normal' community.  Think about
 it, console/pc gaming has been out for 30 or so years.  Audio gaming has had
 aproximatley half of that lifespan.  But look where we were and where we are
 now.  It's loads of progress in a much shorter time.  Personally I am
 thrilled to be part of this rapidly expanding group.  We've really heard
 *coughs* what can be done with sound in games.  So here's to the future!

 Ron

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread darren harris
Hi tom,

I agree actually. I think part of the problem here is that when everybody
comes across a new game release, whatever it is, everybody swoops on it.
that's not really the right way to be to be honest with you.

Boppit whilst it can be fun to an extent really it's a kids game and to be
honest I would shudder to put that out in the Magazine. it has to be said, I
look at some of the writing on this list and other places with regards to
games, I see topics such as this and I cringe thinking good god what if
mainstream people see this? Don't get me wrong, we all have the right to
enjoy what we wish and to talk about it but there is and can be a very
obvious trade-off as a result. 

I think serious consideration needs to be given as to what is and what isn't
deemed appropriate material for wide distribution of the Magazine. that's
not to say we need to say no x rated games can be mentioned or games
containing violence or such things, it's more about quality control. There's
nothing wrong for example in mentioning there's a new developer coming in
and learning what to do and all that. equally there's nothing wrong with a
question and answer section to the Magazine for example, when said
developers can indeed get the opportunity to ask various questions and
answers can be sent to them personally or sent to the Magazine for inclusion
in future issues. Indeed it would be nice to see answers to questions and
people who aren't interested in that section can pass up on it and move on
to something else that takes their interest. But yes, I do think some
quality control is necessary. 

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 31 July 2011 14:23
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Darren,

I do agree that the magazine could be streamlined by cutting out and
removing certain content that isn't up to par so to speak. Announcing
every simple freeware or amateur game might not be in our best
interests if we are hoping mainstream developers and gamers into our
ranks. Games like Guess the Number or BopIt aren't' that news worthy,
and I frankly feel that they probably shouldn't get much public
attention from the magazine.

I do think that we should be more professional about how we handle the
magazine and take our queue from professional gaming magazines. This
isn't being intended to be a put down, but mainstream magazines
generally don't publish news and articles on every single practice or
amateur game like Fred's Guess the Number out there. They tend to
publish articles and news based on established developers who have
reached a certain degree of quality and would be of interest to their
readers. If that sounds elitest so be it, but it doesn't hurt to think
about if the game being discussed would be of any real value to the
community at large rather than just filling space.

Let's be fair here. I know exactly how difficult it is to learn to
program, how much time, skill, and energy goes into programming games.
Every single developer starts with something extremely simple like
Blackjack, Guess the Number, or Paper Scissors Rock because they
require very little programming skill and experience to create. Every
developer starts with such simple games and slowly but surely create
more and more complex practice games until they are able to create the
next Shades of Doom or tank Commander. While there is nothing wrong
with helping a amateur developer with improving his/her Guess the
Number or Paper Scissors Rock game they are still only practice
amateur games. Such amateur developers should probably hold off
releasing anything official until they have released a product that
meets a reasonable standard of quality. Of course, what I would
consider a reasonable standard and what someone might consider a
reasonable standard could be quite different.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 hi tom and all,

 the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
 effective this community can be.

 Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
 games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
 some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
 along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

 Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
 people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
 designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
 accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and
many
 other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
 does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
 accessibility in other game titles.

 There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than
there
 are on this list. I mean let's

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
Clearly I'm the new guy around here, so I frequently ask dumb questions, 
surprise everyone by not knowing common things, and fail miserably while 
playing most audio games, Hahaha.  In one way, this is a good thing since I am 
still able to see things in this community from the perspective of an outsider. 
 As a new guy coming in, I was very excited to go and read the back issues of 
the magazine when I first heard about them.  I wasn't actually all that long 
ago either.

The old magazines were quite old, but I still enjoyed the articles.  Game 
reviews were interesting, but by far, the most interesting things were the 
articles that gave insight to the community, what it had been doing, and where 
it was planning to go.  Perhaps this was only so interesting because I was 
viewing past issues, and I could compare those goals with how things really 
turned out, but I still believe I would be just as interested in those types of 
articles today.

Some have suggested that the magazine should keep in mind, the possibility that 
mainstream gamers will read it, and so it should paint the community in the 
best possible light.  I agree, that is something we should consider, but I have 
to ask the question, what is do we hope to gain by mainstream readers that we 
impress with the magazine?  If our concern is audiogames being taken seriously, 
then we could accomplish that by including only the more unique games, as has 
been suggested.  I have a feeling that we need to broaden that goal.  I would 
suggest that a secondary goal is to attract people TO! the community, that 
would be able to help it continue to push forward.

The articles are the best way to do that.  By getting insight into the 
community, where it was, how it has changed, what it hopes to accomplish, and 
what efforts are currently trying to move us forward, it encourages people to 
theorize their own solutions.  As an example, my buddy Hatred recently joined 
up with the community.  Through conversations, he gradually learned the current 
state of the community, and where it wanted to go, and eventually he started 
sharing ideas with me for helping it get there.  Stuff that would pop into his 
mind simply because there was a problem to solve, and he is the type of person 
who enjoys looking for solutions.  Like myself, he became excited by the 
challenge of moving the community's games in some new directions, and now he is 
actively developing his first audio game.  Lol, Hatred is going to kill me for 
pulling him into this post.  :)

Anyway, the point I was aiming to make is that openly discussing where we want 
to go, and how we are trying to get there, is a great way to attract new 
problem solvers.  If the magazine reaches the right kind of people, who get 
excited about what is going on here in this community, it could lead to more 
good things.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Darren,

Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, even discussing this I'm afraid could
kick off another flame war since people are likely to be sensative
when it comes to discussing what is or isn't reasonable quality
control. It is true anyone has the right to create and play anything
they want, but, in my personal opinion, not every game meets a certain
mainstream standard of quality and development. This is somewhat of a
catch 22 situation since 99% of the developers here are self-taught,
figuring things out as they go,  and many don't have a real extensive
knowledge of mainstream games to begin with. In short, they lack
knowledge and experience that someone exposed to normal mainstream
standards would expect of them.

So if we hold up something like Shades of Doom as a type of goal or
standard we should aim for then a lot of developers are going to come
back with that's too hard orthat's unrealistically high even
though that's exactly the kind of standard for mainstreamgames and
gamers that we haven't reached yet. We are in some respects still
trying to get there, and some developers are far too quick to publish
something simple like BopIt instead of waiting to officially release
something like Q9, Tank Commander, or Shades of Doom. If we wait for
those developers to walk before they can run then of course we would
have a lot of waiting to do. So its a catch 22 situation to either
accept x number of simple games until they can produce something
better, or not hear from them at all until they produce something
better. I'm afraid I don't have an answer or solution for that issue
myself.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 Hi tom,

 I agree actually. I think part of the problem here is that when everybody
 comes across a new game release, whatever it is, everybody swoops on it.
 that's not really the right way to be to be honest with you.

 Boppit whilst it can be fun to an extent really it's a kids game and to be
 honest I would shudder to put that out in the Magazine. it has to be said, I
 look at some of the writing on this list and other places with regards to
 games, I see topics such as this and I cringe thinking good god what if
 mainstream people see this? Don't get me wrong, we all have the right to
 enjoy what we wish and to talk about it but there is and can be a very
 obvious trade-off as a result.

 I think serious consideration needs to be given as to what is and what isn't
 deemed appropriate material for wide distribution of the Magazine. that's
 not to say we need to say no x rated games can be mentioned or games
 containing violence or such things, it's more about quality control. There's
 nothing wrong for example in mentioning there's a new developer coming in
 and learning what to do and all that. equally there's nothing wrong with a
 question and answer section to the Magazine for example, when said
 developers can indeed get the opportunity to ask various questions and
 answers can be sent to them personally or sent to the Magazine for inclusion
 in future issues. Indeed it would be nice to see answers to questions and
 people who aren't interested in that section can pass up on it and move on
 to something else that takes their interest. But yes, I do think some
 quality control is necessary.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Jeremy,

Those are some very good points. In many ways when I joined the audio
games community I had similar observations and I guess ideas where the
community could go. That was about 10 or 11 years ago.

I was sighted for the majority of my early life, lost my sight
officially in the 90's, so I had a pretty good idea of what had been
available for the sighted mainstream market at the time. When i
started reading the mag so I could find out what games I could play or
expect to create I saw that most people were playing text adventures
or simple Dos games  like Monopoly, Hangman, and things of that
nature. The only developer who captured my immediate attention was GMA
because they had a real time submarine simulation, Lone Wolf, and they
were creating the world's first audio based first person shooter,
Shades of Doom. Coming from a mainstream background as I had those
were the games I naturally were most interested in because it wasn't
so different from games I already knew and enjoyed before I lost my
sight. In other words if we want to communicate and open dialog with
other mainstream gamers its something like Shades of Doom or Tank
Commander they will be interested in discussing. Anything less will
seem to them as not very advanced or worth while. At least that's how
I see it coming from that background myself.

It is because of that background I have the opinions and attitudes I
do have towards audio gaming. There is a reason I spent two years
developing a 3d game engine I call Genesis 3D, and there is a reason
I've adopted a number of features seen in the GMA Game engine. That
reason being over the next five years or so I plan to create games on
par with Halo, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, and any other game that has
had some commercial success in the mainstream market. Not necessarily
because it will make a lot of money but because it is a style and
standard of gaming that is rarely achieved by audio game developers
accept for a handful like GMA who are trying to reach the same goal as
I am.

What you are doing for this community is no less valuable. Castaways
is the best game I've seen since I don't know when. True it needs some
better sound effects and things like that, but as Dark said it is the
closest thing to Dwarf Fortress and games like that we have at the
time being. It is getting us headed in the right direction as far as I
am concerned and I'm all forward to bigger and more complex games of
this nature.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
 Clearly I'm the new guy around here, so I frequently ask dumb questions,
 surprise everyone by not knowing common things, and fail miserably while
 playing most audio games, Hahaha.  In one way, this is a good thing since I
 am still able to see things in this community from the perspective of an
 outsider.  As a new guy coming in, I was very excited to go and read the
 back issues of the magazine when I first heard about them.  I wasn't
 actually all that long ago either.

 The old magazines were quite old, but I still enjoyed the articles.  Game
 reviews were interesting, but by far, the most interesting things were the
 articles that gave insight to the community, what it had been doing, and
 where it was planning to go.  Perhaps this was only so interesting because I
 was viewing past issues, and I could compare those goals with how things
 really turned out, but I still believe I would be just as interested in
 those types of articles today.

 Some have suggested that the magazine should keep in mind, the possibility
 that mainstream gamers will read it, and so it should paint the community in
 the best possible light.  I agree, that is something we should consider, but
 I have to ask the question, what is do we hope to gain by mainstream readers
 that we impress with the magazine?  If our concern is audiogames being taken
 seriously, then we could accomplish that by including only the more unique
 games, as has been suggested.  I have a feeling that we need to broaden that
 goal.  I would suggest that a secondary goal is to attract people TO! the
 community, that would be able to help it continue to push forward.

 The articles are the best way to do that.  By getting insight into the
 community, where it was, how it has changed, what it hopes to accomplish,
 and what efforts are currently trying to move us forward, it encourages
 people to theorize their own solutions.  As an example, my buddy Hatred
 recently joined up with the community.  Through conversations, he gradually
 learned the current state of the community, and where it wanted to go, and
 eventually he started sharing ideas with me for helping it get there.  Stuff
 that would pop into his mind simply because there was a problem to solve,
 and he is the type of person who enjoys looking for solutions.  Like myself,
 he became excited by the challenge of moving the community's games in some
 new directions, and now he is actively developing his first 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
Thank you Thomas.  It seems like we are on the same page here.  Of course we 
are concentrating on different things, the common thread is that we are seeing 
the importance of pushing forward.  You are hoping to push higher standards of 
development, I am trying to push for some different ideas that I haven't seen 
here, while I'm sure others are pushing for new interface ideas for existing 
game types.  In the future we need all of these things, and more!  We can't 
expect anyone to work on everything, but as long as we can get people pushing 
forward in their own unique way, it opens the door for the advancements to be 
combined.  It is inevitable that future developers will use game ideas someone 
had to pioneer, develop them to a quality standard someone had to push to 
happen, and use far greater controls which someone took the time to envision.  
A person pushing advancements down any path, will eventually work its way into 
everything else.

I wouldn't be qualified to handle this, but if anyone else feels up to it, I 
know what kind of articles I would be very interested in reading.  Pick some 
style of game that is popular now, I'll use side scroller as an example.  Write 
about the earlier games that used the style, pointing out how each improved the 
style and raised the bar for the next game.  I would love to read about game 
ideas, control features, level layouts, and so forth that clearly worked well 
and then showed up in later games.  Detailing how changes solved past problems, 
and bringing attention to what problems still seem to exist today, will help 
encourage people to theorize their own solutions to the problems.  Just off of 
the top of my head, how pits or raised platforms are handled seems to be 
something of a current issue.  People have tried different approaches in games, 
and I'm sure there Has! to have been a steady stream of advancement in this 
area.  I'm sure the sidescroller
 developers have ideas for how to further improve them down the road also.  
This kind of stuff is very interesting to me, because it would shed light on a 
puzzle which has been passed from developer to developer.  I might learn that 
my idea has been tried by someone, and I could read about how well or poorly it 
was received by the players.  Hopefully it would breed discussion, and speed up 
the rate of new advancements.

I'm just tossing ideas out there.  It is always annoying when someone suggests 
that a job be done, but doesn't volunteer to do it himself, lol!  For that, I 
apologize everyone!  :)

 Hi Jeremy,
 
 Those are some very good points. In many ways when I joined
 the audio
 games community I had similar observations and I guess
 ideas where the
 community could go. That was about 10 or 11 years ago.
 
 I was sighted for the majority of my early life, lost my
 sight
 officially in the 90's, so I had a pretty good idea of what
 had been
 available for the sighted mainstream market at the time.
 When i
 started reading the mag so I could find out what games I
 could play or
 expect to create I saw that most people were playing text
 adventures
 or simple Dos games  like Monopoly, Hangman, and
 things of that
 nature. The only developer who captured my immediate
 attention was GMA
 because they had a real time submarine simulation, Lone
 Wolf, and they
 were creating the world's first audio based first person
 shooter,
 Shades of Doom. Coming from a mainstream background as I
 had those
 were the games I naturally were most interested in because
 it wasn't
 so different from games I already knew and enjoyed before I
 lost my
 sight. In other words if we want to communicate and open
 dialog with
 other mainstream gamers its something like Shades of Doom
 or Tank
 Commander they will be interested in discussing. Anything
 less will
 seem to them as not very advanced or worth while. At least
 that's how
 I see it coming from that background myself.
 
 It is because of that background I have the opinions and
 attitudes I
 do have towards audio gaming. There is a reason I spent two
 years
 developing a 3d game engine I call Genesis 3D, and there is
 a reason
 I've adopted a number of features seen in the GMA Game
 engine. That
 reason being over the next five years or so I plan to
 create games on
 par with Halo, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, and any other game
 that has
 had some commercial success in the mainstream market. Not
 necessarily
 because it will make a lot of money but because it is a
 style and
 standard of gaming that is rarely achieved by audio game
 developers
 accept for a handful like GMA who are trying to reach the
 same goal as
 I am.
 
 What you are doing for this community is no less valuable.
 Castaways
 is the best game I've seen since I don't know when. True it
 needs some
 better sound effects and things like that, but as Dark said
 it is the
 closest thing to Dwarf Fortress and games like that we have
 at the
 time being. It is getting us headed in the right direction
 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

Hi tom.
I aggree with you on all accounts.
Ok so I am a bit unfair.
Ok yeah when I wrote that post I realise I may have left some out.
Ok so maybe I am not as clued up as most.
Opensource is not a bad thing, but there are so many companies on the 
forum that who to list is a thing.
I guess my view has been from someone who is essentually on the 
outside looking in.

Yes its true I own a few comercial games.
I also have a lot of free games and I haveaccess to other misc games.
Its safe to say though that my view is from the soude though.
Although I do play games its not a major part of my life anymore.
It used to be but now I struggle to find time to even play stuff 
anymore though I do keep up to date.

Its true that I don't read every forum thread though.
At 12:02 a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,

I think you are being overly pessimisticwhen it comes to your personal
views of the audio games community. Weather you realize it or not
there is quite a lot more going on than you have given credit for, and
I'd like to take this time to give some credit where credit is do and
perhaps give you a more positive outlook on the community in general.

Shaun wrote:

However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

My reply:

I think that's a little unfair. Ron has had a number of personal
issues to deal with, some he is willing to discuss and some he is not,
but as with game development its all pretty much done on a voluntary
basis, and I think you can give the guy a break for putting the
magazine off until he was mentally, emotionally, and physically up to
taking on the magazine again. If he can now dedicate himself to a
quarterly release schedule that's great. If not we should be
understanding enough to see that he is only one person and is doing
this voluntarily on his own time and energy.

Shaun wrote:

There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails sections
as these are shoved on the list.

My reply:

Not everyone is  on the Audyssey list. Many are over on the
audiogames.net forum, not on this list, and there are likely some
people who aren't on either the forum or list who receive the
magazine. The letters/e-mails section is a great way for them to keep
up to speed with events without having to sub to the list or forum.

Shaun wrote:

There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there are
to many to count.

My reply:

You make that sound like a bad thing, and it certainly is not. From my
perspective this makes the magazine all the more worth while as it
gives new freeware and open source developers another outlet to talk
about their games, announce their existence, and something we all can
read regardless of what list or forums we may be on.

While I might agree that someone's new Guess the Number game might not
be  particularly news or magazine worthy there have been a number of
free games that should be mentioned in the magazine. Jeremy has
released a surprising number of decent freeware games like Castaways
that certainly deserves mention in the magazine, and its possible
there are plenty of VI gamers who haven't tried Jeremy's games simply
because they are so new and perhaps just haven't heard the news.

Shaun wrote:

Development has slowed to barely a crawl. With most of the devs either
out of business, sitting on their buts as far as the rest probably
cares or working on their projects without putting out any news, and a
few other things the major community as it stands comercially is quite
dead and bare.

My reply:

I really think that is pretty unfair. Blind Adrenaline is continuing
to add games to the card room, and Che has become a leading commercial
developer because of it. Blastbay Studios, AKA Philip Bennefall, has
released a number of commercial and freeware products in a row
including BGT, Q9, Kryngle Crash, Palace Punch-Up, and is working on a
new commercial game as we speak. GMA released Time of Conflict last
year. BPC Programs released 3D Velocity in this past year as well.
Mysteries of the Ancients, my current commercial project, is scheduled
for release this fall. My point being that far from dead commercial
audio game developers have picked up production rather than slowed
down as you seem to suggest above.

Shaun wrote:

Jim kitchen is the only person doing any real stuff and that  has
slowed its mostly been data updates.

My reply:

Even if that were true there is nothing wrong with updates and
upgrades. However, Jim Kitchen has released Awesome Homer as well as
TJS in the past year in addition to those data updates you
mentioned. That's not bad for a single developer.

However, Jim isn't the only one doing stuff. Good grief, man, Jeremy
has released several games in the last year, and it would make sense
to give the guy a little bit of credit where credit is do. He has
actually been giving the audio games community more games to play
around with in the last few months than we have seen in 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

I was not thinking of a full switchover to audio.
The text is still a good idea.
There are loads with dialup that I Know still and text is still good 
for some stuff.

I just thought it would make the mag more interactive if bits were audio.
Ie we could hear voices of devs and contributers a like.


At 12:11 a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,

Well, with all do respect if we went to audio instead of a webzine
then in effect what we would have is a podcast. While I agree an
Audyssey podcast would be cool their are already technology podcasts
like this available such as those on Blind Cool tech. I don't think we
should confuse the magazine with a different format like a podcast as
we could certainly have both if that were something the community
would be interested in.

cheers!

On 7/31/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 on that note not that I want to detract from the mag or anything but
 we really need to branch into other formats like audio.
 Ofcause people could record things etc and I could probably put those
 together.
 I have time I'd need the place to put it up but i probably at least
 for the moment could put up stuff on a small schedual, at least semi
 reggularly.
 Ofcause this stuff if it got serious would either have to be
 donationware or subscription based or something as I would eventually
 have to buy a web site and domain which could be quite expensive.
 I know where I can get a good deal but at 160-200 a year to double
 that for a site and domain it does not come cheap.
 I experemented last month with a free site which didn't work well at
 all but I am confordent I could have a small wordpress site, and a
 downloads folder with no restrictions where people could grab things,
 Ofcause I have dropbox to.
 Still would have to think on what I would have to do about that.
 It may for example be cheaper to get a free webhost like 000webhost
 and upgrade my dropbox, but then use some external drives to host the
 files rather than the main drive or something.
 maybe get a sepperate system to handle things with a seperate dropbox
 if I could do  that.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss
well ron I could always help with the podcast I have a field recorder 
and  a mic.
Due to internal bad soundcards I can't record input and output at 
once not without vertual audio cable which ofcause is not free and is 
not worth buying.
UNless there is an opensource or free thing that will do the same 
thing that would rock.


a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:

Hi

  Indeed doing a mag and a podcast would be an option.  As for the format
I'd have to give that some thought about articles, announcements and
reviews.  Though It would offer an opportunity to demo as well as announce
new games.  It's worth considering if there is enough interest.

Ron

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Shaun,

Well, with all do respect if we went to audio instead of a webzine
then in effect what we would have is a podcast. While I agree an
Audyssey podcast would be cool their are already technology podcasts
like this available such as those on Blind Cool tech. I don't think we
should confuse the magazine with a different format like a podcast as
we could certainly have both if that were something the community
would be interested in.

cheers!

On 7/31/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 on that note not that I want to detract from the mag or anything but
 we really need to branch into other formats like audio.
 Ofcause people could record things etc and I could probably put those
 together.
 I have time I'd need the place to put it up but i probably at least
 for the moment could put up stuff on a small schedual, at least semi
 reggularly.
 Ofcause this stuff if it got serious would either have to be
 donationware or subscription based or something as I would eventually
 have to buy a web site and domain which could be quite expensive.
 I know where I can get a good deal but at 160-200 a year to double
 that for a site and domain it does not come cheap.
 I experemented last month with a free site which didn't work well at
 all but I am confordent I could have a small wordpress site, and a
 downloads folder with no restrictions where people could grab things,
 Ofcause I have dropbox to.
 Still would have to think on what I would have to do about that.
 It may for example be cheaper to get a free webhost like 000webhost
 and upgrade my dropbox, but then use some external drives to host the
 files rather than the main drive or something.
 maybe get a sepperate system to handle things with a seperate dropbox
 if I could do  that.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss
The problem with the gaming releases, and such is even though every 
dev may be developing, it looks like that releases come out randomly 
even if they don't actually do it.
So we tend to swoop on a game firstly because something has actually 
happened, and then if its real good we will go at urnist.
I mean with a few acceptions can anyone remember when the last free 
game was released.

With the acception of all the ones that have been done this year that is.
THough maybe it should be when was the last comercial game released.
Well maybe thats easy, point is that anything and everything we swoop 
on because its new and we want to play it.
The major issue is that guess the number, arcade, racing and in fact 
a lot of bord and other emulated games are the most easy to write so 
thats what we push out.
With the acception of aprone who's games remind me of an rpg with 
interactive fiction and stratogy elements can we honestly say apart 
from mota and a few others that any really new games have conercially 
come out that have not emulated anything.
I have no idea but it doesn't look like it, though maybe I have 
forgot something important.

At 02:48 a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:

Hi Darren,

Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, even discussing this I'm afraid could
kick off another flame war since people are likely to be sensative
when it comes to discussing what is or isn't reasonable quality
control. It is true anyone has the right to create and play anything
they want, but, in my personal opinion, not every game meets a certain
mainstream standard of quality and development. This is somewhat of a
catch 22 situation since 99% of the developers here are self-taught,
figuring things out as they go,  and many don't have a real extensive
knowledge of mainstream games to begin with. In short, they lack
knowledge and experience that someone exposed to normal mainstream
standards would expect of them.

So if we hold up something like Shades of Doom as a type of goal or
standard we should aim for then a lot of developers are going to come
back with that's too hard orthat's unrealistically high even
though that's exactly the kind of standard for mainstreamgames and
gamers that we haven't reached yet. We are in some respects still
trying to get there, and some developers are far too quick to publish
something simple like BopIt instead of waiting to officially release
something like Q9, Tank Commander, or Shades of Doom. If we wait for
those developers to walk before they can run then of course we would
have a lot of waiting to do. So its a catch 22 situation to either
accept x number of simple games until they can produce something
better, or not hear from them at all until they produce something
better. I'm afraid I don't have an answer or solution for that issue
myself.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 Hi tom,

 I agree actually. I think part of the problem here is that when everybody
 comes across a new game release, whatever it is, everybody swoops on it.
 that's not really the right way to be to be honest with you.

 Boppit whilst it can be fun to an extent really it's a kids game and to be
 honest I would shudder to put that out in the Magazine. it has to 
be said, I

 look at some of the writing on this list and other places with regards to
 games, I see topics such as this and I cringe thinking good god what if
 mainstream people see this? Don't get me wrong, we all have the right to
 enjoy what we wish and to talk about it but there is and can be a very
 obvious trade-off as a result.

 I think serious consideration needs to be given as to what is and 
what isn't

 deemed appropriate material for wide distribution of the Magazine. that's
 not to say we need to say no x rated games can be mentioned or games
 containing violence or such things, it's more about quality 
control. There's

 nothing wrong for example in mentioning there's a new developer coming in
 and learning what to do and all that. equally there's nothing wrong with a
 question and answer section to the Magazine for example, when said
 developers can indeed get the opportunity to ask various questions and
 answers can be sent to them personally or sent to the Magazine 
for inclusion

 in future issues. Indeed it would be nice to see answers to questions and
 people who aren't interested in that section can pass up on it and move on
 to something else that takes their interest. But yes, I do think some
 quality control is necessary.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

well tom its safe to say that most of us here are just starting.
Most don't have your background.
I sertainly don't.
When I started the most complex game I knew was intergalactic battle 
a graphics/menu game.

Yes compaired to mainstream we are probably not that attractive.
The point is that we have been stagnating in emulated arcade.
Its not a bad thing but if we need to move foreward we will have to 
bite the bullet and try to go mainstream etc.

Which brings up an interesting thing.
Unless you are sighted and know what stuff was  then you won't know 
what to really do.

I have never been sighted in my life.
You can go left right up down run left and right and jump.
I know that mainstream stuff goes so much more than that.
But there are limits in sounds, the number of sounds, etc.
Then there is the fact most of us don't have updated equipment.
And even if we have its not the most up to date.
Ie I have what would be quite an ancient second generation dulecore 
with no real hard drive or memmory requirements running on an 
extremely insecure os, and old ish hardware that won't go anywhere 
and being unable to run major things.
We are limited at least for a while to the fact most people will 
still have 32 bit systems.

I know for a fact a few still have single core systems.
Some may still use dos 6 and win98 still.
With acceptions with those with linux or apple mac systems Hmmm not sure.
Basically we are stuck with simple for a while I think until we get 
64 bit fully then we will be behind again.


So before we move foreward we need some online servey  For our 
systems and what features etc we could have in a game or just the system specs.
We need to know how many have medium spec systems like mine, to 
really old, to new to whatever, what os and what stuff  we will want.
I am thinking of making a test servey on surveymonkey or something 
just to see what things are like.

At 03:16 a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:

Hi Jeremy,

Those are some very good points. In many ways when I joined the audio
games community I had similar observations and I guess ideas where the
community could go. That was about 10 or 11 years ago.

I was sighted for the majority of my early life, lost my sight
officially in the 90's, so I had a pretty good idea of what had been
available for the sighted mainstream market at the time. When i
started reading the mag so I could find out what games I could play or
expect to create I saw that most people were playing text adventures
or simple Dos games  like Monopoly, Hangman, and things of that
nature. The only developer who captured my immediate attention was GMA
because they had a real time submarine simulation, Lone Wolf, and they
were creating the world's first audio based first person shooter,
Shades of Doom. Coming from a mainstream background as I had those
were the games I naturally were most interested in because it wasn't
so different from games I already knew and enjoyed before I lost my
sight. In other words if we want to communicate and open dialog with
other mainstream gamers its something like Shades of Doom or Tank
Commander they will be interested in discussing. Anything less will
seem to them as not very advanced or worth while. At least that's how
I see it coming from that background myself.

It is because of that background I have the opinions and attitudes I
do have towards audio gaming. There is a reason I spent two years
developing a 3d game engine I call Genesis 3D, and there is a reason
I've adopted a number of features seen in the GMA Game engine. That
reason being over the next five years or so I plan to create games on
par with Halo, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, and any other game that has
had some commercial success in the mainstream market. Not necessarily
because it will make a lot of money but because it is a style and
standard of gaming that is rarely achieved by audio game developers
accept for a handful like GMA who are trying to reach the same goal as
I am.

What you are doing for this community is no less valuable. Castaways
is the best game I've seen since I don't know when. True it needs some
better sound effects and things like that, but as Dark said it is the
closest thing to Dwarf Fortress and games like that we have at the
time being. It is getting us headed in the right direction as far as I
am concerned and I'm all forward to bigger and more complex games of
this nature.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote:
 Clearly I'm the new guy around here, so I frequently ask dumb questions,
 surprise everyone by not knowing common things, and fail miserably while
 playing most audio games, Hahaha.  In one way, this is a good thing since I
 am still able to see things in this community from the perspective of an
 outsider.  As a new guy coming in, I was very excited to go and read the
 back issues of the magazine when I first heard about them.  I wasn't
 actually all that long ago either.

 The old magazines were quite old, but I 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread dark

I agree with Tom on this.

Also, i might point out that there are things which are stil easier to write 
in an artical form than a podcast, and people who would find the one easier 
to produce than the other, pluss as I said before, the more formal setting 
of the magazine encourages people to take time over what they're doing.


Thus while a podcast might be nice to have too, i don't think it would be a 
viable replacement for the mag.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Charles Rivard
His complaints are why I don't read his messages.  Your responses to them, 
which are right on the button, are why I do read yours.


Speaking of the mag, as the subject line indicates, I'm sure glad to hear 
that an issue will be out soon, with another to follow.  It is a one-stop 
place that gamers can obtain a comprehensive indication on what's going on 
in the VI gaming community, what to try or not to try based on firsthand 
experiences, and reports, by other VI gamers, and what may be in store for 
the future.


And speaking of articles for the mag, it's been a long time ago, so I don't 
remember if the two articles I wrote dealing with Hi Q were published. 
One told how to inexpensively make your own version of the game and what the 
object of the puzzle game is, the other gave the solution  So, Ron, if you 
have those articles, feel free to publish.  If you don't, I'll send them if 
I still have them.


One more thing, and I do apologize for this lengthy post:  Where can I 
download copies of all prior issues?  The folder that I had, containing all 
of the prior issues, has somehow gotten deleted.  They make such good 
reference material, I do want to get them all back.  Thanks much..


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Shaun,

I think you are being overly pessimisticwhen it comes to your personal
views of the audio games community. Weather you realize it or not
there is quite a lot more going on than you have given credit for, and
I'd like to take this time to give some credit where credit is do and
perhaps give you a more positive outlook on the community in general.

Shaun wrote:

However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

My reply:

I think that's a little unfair. Ron has had a number of personal
issues to deal with, some he is willing to discuss and some he is not,
but as with game development its all pretty much done on a voluntary
basis, and I think you can give the guy a break for putting the
magazine off until he was mentally, emotionally, and physically up to
taking on the magazine again. If he can now dedicate himself to a
quarterly release schedule that's great. If not we should be
understanding enough to see that he is only one person and is doing
this voluntarily on his own time and energy.

Shaun wrote:

There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails sections
as these are shoved on the list.

My reply:

Not everyone is  on the Audyssey list. Many are over on the
audiogames.net forum, not on this list, and there are likely some
people who aren't on either the forum or list who receive the
magazine. The letters/e-mails section is a great way for them to keep
up to speed with events without having to sub to the list or forum.

Shaun wrote:

There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there are
to many to count.

My reply:

You make that sound like a bad thing, and it certainly is not. From my
perspective this makes the magazine all the more worth while as it
gives new freeware and open source developers another outlet to talk
about their games, announce their existence, and something we all can
read regardless of what list or forums we may be on.

While I might agree that someone's new Guess the Number game might not
be  particularly news or magazine worthy there have been a number of
free games that should be mentioned in the magazine. Jeremy has
released a surprising number of decent freeware games like Castaways
that certainly deserves mention in the magazine, and its possible
there are plenty of VI gamers who haven't tried Jeremy's games simply
because they are so new and perhaps just haven't heard the news.

Shaun wrote:

Development has slowed to barely a crawl. With most of the devs either
out of business, sitting on their buts as far as the rest probably
cares or working on their projects without putting out any news, and a
few other things the major community as it stands comercially is quite
dead and bare.

My reply:

I really think that is pretty unfair. Blind Adrenaline is continuing
to add games to the card room, and Che has become a leading commercial
developer because of it. Blastbay Studios, AKA Philip Bennefall, has
released a number of commercial and freeware products in a row
including BGT, Q9, Kryngle Crash, Palace Punch-Up, and is working on a
new commercial game as we speak. GMA released Time of Conflict last
year. BPC Programs released 3D Velocity in this past year as well.
Mysteries of the Ancients, my current commercial project, is scheduled
for release this fall. My point being that far from dead commercial
audio game developers have picked up production rather than slowed
down as you seem to suggest above.

Shaun wrote

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Charles Rivard
I feel that what should be covered in the magazine are games that blind 
people can play, and it is up to the reader as to whether they are good or 
not.  Some people enjoy simple games that aren't complicated, others enjoy 
just the opposite.  All should be covered.  And, as Ron has pointed out many 
times in the magazine, if you want to write on a game, it doesn't matter 
whether someone else has already done so.  The number and variants of 
articles on any given game will show it's popularity.  We should not focus 
on the most advanced games in order to show how advanced the visually 
impaired games and gamers have become, or to impress the gaming community as 
a whole.  We should focus on what interests visually impaired gamers.


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com

To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



hi tom and all,

the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
effective this community can be.

Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and 
many

other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
accessibility in other game titles.

There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than 
there

are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution is
and can only be a good thing.

I would say though however that the content does need to be more
streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting this community viewed
more favourably by a mainstream community, we aren't going to do it with
numbers games and Simon says type games. We have so many of those that 
quite
honestly we don't need any more and to be blunt the Magazine doesn't need 
it

either. It's poor representation.

Am not trying to offend anybody, far from it but equally it has to be said
that things do need to change with regards to what is brought out by some.
Having said that I think the Magazine does offer much more positive things
than negative on the whole. It just depends on what content is included.



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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Charles Rivard
Good points that I hadn't considered.  One thought, though, is that it sure 
boosts a programmer's morale when they see their name up in lights, so to 
speak, for the first time.  Maybe there should be a section entitled from 
new developers or something to that effect?  Not in every issue, but once 
in a while, there could be mention of what they've done in, say, the last 
year, maybe in the issue near Christmas?


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



Hi Darren,

I do agree that the magazine could be streamlined by cutting out and
removing certain content that isn't up to par so to speak. Announcing
every simple freeware or amateur game might not be in our best
interests if we are hoping mainstream developers and gamers into our
ranks. Games like Guess the Numberor BopIt arent' that news worthy,
and I frankly feel that they probably shouldn't get much public
attention from the magazine.

I do think that we should be more professional about how we handle the
magazine and take our queue from professional gaming magazines. This
isn't being intended to be a put down, but mainstream magazines
generally don't publish news and articles on every single practice or
ametur game like Fred's Guess the Number out there. They tend to
publish articles and news based on established developers who have
reached a certain degree of quality and would be of interest to their
readers. If that sounds elitest so be it, but it doesn't hurt to think
about if the game being discussed would be of any real value to the
community at large rather than just filling space.

Let's be fair here. I know exactly how difficult it is to learn to
program, how much time, skill, and energy goes into programming games.
Every single developer starts with something extremely simple like
Blackjack, Guess the Number, or Paper Scissors Rock because they
require very little programming skill and experience to create. Every
developer starts with such simple games and slowly but surely create
more and more complex practice games until they are able to create the
next Shades of Doom or tank Commander. While there is nothing wrong
with helping a amateur developer with improving his/her Guess the
Number or Paper Scissors Rock game they are still only practice
amateur games. Such amateur developers should probably hold off
releasing anything official until they have released a product that
meets a reasonable standard of quality. Of course, what I would
consider a reasonable standard and what someone might consider a
reasonable standard could be quite different.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:

hi tom and all,

the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
effective this community can be.

Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and 
many

other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
accessibility in other game titles.

There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than 
there

are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution 
is

and can only be a good thing.

I would say though however that the content does need to be more
streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting this community viewed
more favourably by a mainstream community, we aren't going to do it with
numbers games and Simon says type games. We have so many of those that 
quite
honestly we don't need any more and to be blunt the Magazine doesn't need 
it

either. It's poor representation.

Am not trying to offend anybody, far from it but equally it has to be 
said
that things do need to change with regards to what is brought out by 
some.
Having said that I think the Magazine does offer much more positive 
things

than negative on the whole. It just depends on what content is included.



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You can

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread darren harris
Hi tom,

Well in the end, fact always wins over fiction. So really to be blunt again,
people need to stop burying their heads in the sand and face the music.
These simple games aren't going to cut it in the real world. They're good to
practice on I can see the logic in that in terms of how to get code working,
but equally that doesn't to my mind justify a release each time. how many
space invader clones do we have now? the only thing that hasn't really been
cloned to death is packman which is good because the job that Phil did with
packman talks is a masterpiece in it's own right. 

The facts are these:

1. Developers are indeed starting from scratch and learning as they go. This
I accept and openly acknowledge. I can't programme for the life of me so I'm
not going to sit here and debate how easy or difficult x game is to create.
2. whether a person is self-taught or whether you go to school and learn, we
all have to start somewhere. Again I totally accept this. But with
experience comes improved quality of product. It's just the same as with any
business venture. The longer you are in a given business providing you
survive, the more you can refine and train yourself to do better, produce a
better product or service. So to put this into the gaming context, the more
you progress the better games you can produce and also there's plenty of
knowledge and resources here to draw upon.

In the mainstream gaming community, too much cloning will simply bore people
and you won't have the attention you once had. Which in the long run can and
will only serve to damage you.

If the Audyssey Magazine is constantly full of these clones and there isn't
an effective streamlining process, then it will kill the Magazine. pure and
simple. Thus why gaming Magazines have a rating system for games and not
everything gets in. 

At the end of the day, it's the people that drive the types of games that
are produced and it's the Magazines that effectively report back to the
people. So my question is, in order to support the masses, are we going to
just accept that there can be a ton of low budget games out there to play
that aren't too different from each other? or is a little time and patients
worth the increase in the quality of game? That is the trade-off isn't it.
personally I'm content to sit back and see what happens. In other words, let
the developers do what they're best at. Let the newbies learn how to develop
to a set standard thus over time the wait will be less because the more
progressing developers there are out there, the increase in titles we'll see
over time.

If you yourself were working in the mainstream community and it was taking
as long as it's taking you now to develop your game, the simple fact is that
until your game is released, people will go and play other titles because
they are available and there. by adhering and accepting the lower quality
games we're doing ourselves much more harm than good in the long run in my
opinion.



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Charles

  in #54 the first part of Hi-q was published and the second part or 
solution file is upcoming.  I appreciaite the contributions.  In fact that 
was never a game I ever solved without a few pegs left.  While talking about 
this do you have a solution for the single row version?  I think it's about 
15 holes or 14 pegs.  It usually was included with the plus sign styled 
bored.
  Thanks for the positive thoughts on the mag.

Talk soon
Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


His complaints are why I don't read his messages.  Your responses to them,
which are right on the button, are why I do read yours.

Speaking of the mag, as the subject line indicates, I'm sure glad to hear
that an issue will be out soon, with another to follow.  It is a one-stop
place that gamers can obtain a comprehensive indication on what's going on
in the VI gaming community, what to try or not to try based on firsthand
experiences, and reports, by other VI gamers, and what may be in store for
the future.

And speaking of articles for the mag, it's been a long time ago, so I don't
remember if the two articles I wrote dealing with Hi Q were published.
One told how to inexpensively make your own version of the game and what the
object of the puzzle game is, the other gave the solution  So, Ron, if you
have those articles, feel free to publish.  If you don't, I'll send them if
I still have them.

One more thing, and I do apologize for this lengthy post:  Where can I
download copies of all prior issues?  The folder that I had, containing all
of the prior issues, has somehow gotten deleted.  They make such good
reference material, I do want to get them all back.  Thanks much..

---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Shaun,

I think you are being overly pessimisticwhen it comes to your personal
views of the audio games community. Weather you realize it or not
there is quite a lot more going on than you have given credit for, and
I'd like to take this time to give some credit where credit is do and
perhaps give you a more positive outlook on the community in general.

Shaun wrote:

However since the issue release seems to only be one every time you
remember, or something, hmmm I don't know.

My reply:

I think that's a little unfair. Ron has had a number of personal
issues to deal with, some he is willing to discuss and some he is not,
but as with game development its all pretty much done on a voluntary
basis, and I think you can give the guy a break for putting the
magazine off until he was mentally, emotionally, and physically up to
taking on the magazine again. If he can now dedicate himself to a
quarterly release schedule that's great. If not we should be
understanding enough to see that he is only one person and is doing
this voluntarily on his own time and energy.

Shaun wrote:

There is almost no need for the letters section or the emails sections
as these are shoved on the list.

My reply:

Not everyone is  on the Audyssey list. Many are over on the
audiogames.net forum, not on this list, and there are likely some
people who aren't on either the forum or list who receive the
magazine. The letters/e-mails section is a great way for them to keep
up to speed with events without having to sub to the list or forum.

Shaun wrote:

There are so many opensource and freeware companies now that there are
to many to count.

My reply:

You make that sound like a bad thing, and it certainly is not. From my
perspective this makes the magazine all the more worth while as it
gives new freeware and open source developers another outlet to talk
about their games, announce their existence, and something we all can
read regardless of what list or forums we may be on.

While I might agree that someone's new Guess the Number game might not
be  particularly news or magazine worthy there have been a number of
free games that should be mentioned in the magazine. Jeremy has
released a surprising number of decent freeware games like Castaways
that certainly deserves mention in the magazine, and its possible
there are plenty of VI gamers who haven't tried Jeremy's games simply
because they are so new and perhaps just haven't heard the news.

Shaun wrote:

Development has slowed to barely a crawl. With most of the devs either
out of business, sitting on their buts as far as the rest probably
cares or working on their projects without putting out any news, and a
few other things the major community as it stands comercially is quite
dead and bare.

My reply:

I really think that is pretty unfair. Blind Adrenaline is continuing
to add games to the card room

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Charles

  I like the idea of new devs.  As you mention it wouldn't be always in the 
mag as a new dev only happens every so often.  Mind having said that we've 
had two pop up in the last day or so.  But that seems more of an exception 
instead of the rule.  What I like about it is that it would act as somewhat 
of a filter.  It would allow folks to look at the new devs or not.  That 
might be to some folks taste.  Great idea and I think I'll steal it. *l*

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Good points that I hadn't considered.  One thought, though, is that it sure
boosts a programmer's morale when they see their name up in lights, so to
speak, for the first time.  Maybe there should be a section entitled from
new developers or something to that effect?  Not in every issue, but once
in a while, there could be mention of what they've done in, say, the last
year, maybe in the issue near Christmas?

---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


 Hi Darren,

 I do agree that the magazine could be streamlined by cutting out and
 removing certain content that isn't up to par so to speak. Announcing
 every simple freeware or amateur game might not be in our best
 interests if we are hoping mainstream developers and gamers into our
 ranks. Games like Guess the Numberor BopIt arent' that news worthy,
 and I frankly feel that they probably shouldn't get much public
 attention from the magazine.

 I do think that we should be more professional about how we handle the
 magazine and take our queue from professional gaming magazines. This
 isn't being intended to be a put down, but mainstream magazines
 generally don't publish news and articles on every single practice or
 ametur game like Fred's Guess the Number out there. They tend to
 publish articles and news based on established developers who have
 reached a certain degree of quality and would be of interest to their
 readers. If that sounds elitest so be it, but it doesn't hurt to think
 about if the game being discussed would be of any real value to the
 community at large rather than just filling space.

 Let's be fair here. I know exactly how difficult it is to learn to
 program, how much time, skill, and energy goes into programming games.
 Every single developer starts with something extremely simple like
 Blackjack, Guess the Number, or Paper Scissors Rock because they
 require very little programming skill and experience to create. Every
 developer starts with such simple games and slowly but surely create
 more and more complex practice games until they are able to create the
 next Shades of Doom or tank Commander. While there is nothing wrong
 with helping a amateur developer with improving his/her Guess the
 Number or Paper Scissors Rock game they are still only practice
 amateur games. Such amateur developers should probably hold off
 releasing anything official until they have released a product that
 meets a reasonable standard of quality. Of course, what I would
 consider a reasonable standard and what someone might consider a
 reasonable standard could be quite different.

 Cheers!


 On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 hi tom and all,

 the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
 effective this community can be.

 Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
 games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
 some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
 along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

 Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
 people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
 designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
 accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and
 many
 other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
 does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
 accessibility in other game titles.

 There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than
 there
 are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
 people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
 practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
 audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution
 is
 and can only be a good thing.

 I would say though however that the content does need to be more
 streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

I aggree.
We should focus on all games.
There is hardly an issue these days and hasn't for a bit, so at least 
for now we shouldn't be picky about goes in there.

At 09:47 a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:
I feel that what should be covered in the magazine are games that 
blind people can play, and it is up to the reader as to whether they 
are good or not.  Some people enjoy simple games that aren't 
complicated, others enjoy just the opposite.  All should be 
covered.  And, as Ron has pointed out many times in the magazine, if 
you want to write on a game, it doesn't matter whether someone else 
has already done so.  The number and variants of articles on any 
given game will show it's popularity.  We should not focus on the 
most advanced games in order to show how advanced the visually 
impaired games and gamers have become, or to impress the gaming 
community as a whole.  We should focus on what interests visually 
impaired gamers.


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - From: darren harris 
darren_g_har...@btinternet.com

To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



hi tom and all,

the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
effective this community can be.

Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and many
other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
accessibility in other game titles.

There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than there
are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
practical reasons it's best to assume that there are far more members on
audiogames.net. so having the Magazine and various ways of distribution is
and can only be a good thing.

I would say though however that the content does need to be more
streamlined. With the recent discussions on getting this community viewed
more favourably by a mainstream community, we aren't going to do it with
numbers games and Simon says type games. We have so many of those that quite
honestly we don't need any more and to be blunt the Magazine doesn't need it
either. It's poor representation.

Am not trying to offend anybody, far from it but equally it has to be said
that things do need to change with regards to what is brought out by some.
Having said that I think the Magazine does offer much more positive things
than negative on the whole. It just depends on what content is included.



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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread shaun everiss

While we are talking about the mag and its formats.
I think the mag should be put up in plain marked html as well as the 
other text formats.
This is after all how a lot of us navigate things and I have often 
found it easier to navigate mags and news letters that traditionally 
ran in text only using html.

At 10:10 a.m. 1/08/2011, you wrote:

Hi Charles

  I like the idea of new devs.  As you mention it wouldn't be always in the
mag as a new dev only happens every so often.  Mind having said that we've
had two pop up in the last day or so.  But that seems more of an exception
instead of the rule.  What I like about it is that it would act as somewhat
of a filter.  It would allow folks to look at the new devs or not.  That
might be to some folks taste.  Great idea and I think I'll steal it. *l*

Ron

- Original Message -
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Good points that I hadn't considered.  One thought, though, is that it sure
boosts a programmer's morale when they see their name up in lights, so to
speak, for the first time.  Maybe there should be a section entitled from
new developers or something to that effect?  Not in every issue, but once
in a while, there could be mention of what they've done in, say, the last
year, maybe in the issue near Christmas?

---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


 Hi Darren,

 I do agree that the magazine could be streamlined by cutting out and
 removing certain content that isn't up to par so to speak. Announcing
 every simple freeware or amateur game might not be in our best
 interests if we are hoping mainstream developers and gamers into our
 ranks. Games like Guess the Numberor BopIt arent' that news worthy,
 and I frankly feel that they probably shouldn't get much public
 attention from the magazine.

 I do think that we should be more professional about how we handle the
 magazine and take our queue from professional gaming magazines. This
 isn't being intended to be a put down, but mainstream magazines
 generally don't publish news and articles on every single practice or
 ametur game like Fred's Guess the Number out there. They tend to
 publish articles and news based on established developers who have
 reached a certain degree of quality and would be of interest to their
 readers. If that sounds elitest so be it, but it doesn't hurt to think
 about if the game being discussed would be of any real value to the
 community at large rather than just filling space.

 Let's be fair here. I know exactly how difficult it is to learn to
 program, how much time, skill, and energy goes into programming games.
 Every single developer starts with something extremely simple like
 Blackjack, Guess the Number, or Paper Scissors Rock because they
 require very little programming skill and experience to create. Every
 developer starts with such simple games and slowly but surely create
 more and more complex practice games until they are able to create the
 next Shades of Doom or tank Commander. While there is nothing wrong
 with helping a amateur developer with improving his/her Guess the
 Number or Paper Scissors Rock game they are still only practice
 amateur games. Such amateur developers should probably hold off
 releasing anything official until they have released a product that
 meets a reasonable standard of quality. Of course, what I would
 consider a reasonable standard and what someone might consider a
 reasonable standard could be quite different.

 Cheers!


 On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 hi tom and all,

 the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
 effective this community can be.

 Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the numbers
 games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have been
 some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of them,
 along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

 Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
 people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
 designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
 accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and
 many
 other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the Magazine
 does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
 accessibility in other game titles.

 There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than
 there
 are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands of
 people on it and active, because it's emails

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Charles Rivard
Then again, if you were working for a company that produces mainstream 
games, there would be a whole group of co-workers.  In our community, there 
are not.  There would be a huge budget from which to draw, and in our 
community, there is not.  You would make a very good salary doing what you 
do, and in our community, you are not.  To me, unless I'm seeing it wrongly, 
you are comparing grapes to grapefruit.


---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com

To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



Hi tom,

Well in the end, fact always wins over fiction. So really to be blunt 
again,

people need to stop burying their heads in the sand and face the music.
These simple games aren't going to cut it in the real world. They're good 
to
practice on I can see the logic in that in terms of how to get code 
working,

but equally that doesn't to my mind justify a release each time. how many
space invader clones do we have now? the only thing that hasn't really 
been
cloned to death is packman which is good because the job that Phil did 
with

packman talks is a masterpiece in it's own right.

The facts are these:

1. Developers are indeed starting from scratch and learning as they go. 
This
I accept and openly acknowledge. I can't programme for the life of me so 
I'm
not going to sit here and debate how easy or difficult x game is to 
create.
2. whether a person is self-taught or whether you go to school and learn, 
we

all have to start somewhere. Again I totally accept this. But with
experience comes improved quality of product. It's just the same as with 
any

business venture. The longer you are in a given business providing you
survive, the more you can refine and train yourself to do better, produce 
a
better product or service. So to put this into the gaming context, the 
more

you progress the better games you can produce and also there's plenty of
knowledge and resources here to draw upon.

In the mainstream gaming community, too much cloning will simply bore 
people
and you won't have the attention you once had. Which in the long run can 
and

will only serve to damage you.

If the Audyssey Magazine is constantly full of these clones and there 
isn't
an effective streamlining process, then it will kill the Magazine. pure 
and

simple. Thus why gaming Magazines have a rating system for games and not
everything gets in.

At the end of the day, it's the people that drive the types of games that
are produced and it's the Magazines that effectively report back to the
people. So my question is, in order to support the masses, are we going to
just accept that there can be a ton of low budget games out there to play
that aren't too different from each other? or is a little time and 
patients

worth the increase in the quality of game? That is the trade-off isn't it.
personally I'm content to sit back and see what happens. In other words, 
let
the developers do what they're best at. Let the newbies learn how to 
develop

to a set standard thus over time the wait will be less because the more
progressing developers there are out there, the increase in titles we'll 
see

over time.

If you yourself were working in the mainstream community and it was taking
as long as it's taking you now to develop your game, the simple fact is 
that

until your game is released, people will go and play other titles because
they are available and there. by adhering and accepting the lower quality
games we're doing ourselves much more harm than good in the long run in my
opinion.



---
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gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Charles Rivard

I won't look as you're swiping it.

---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



Hi Charles

 I like the idea of new devs.  As you mention it wouldn't be always in the
mag as a new dev only happens every so often.  Mind having said that we've
had two pop up in the last day or so.  But that seems more of an exception
instead of the rule.  What I like about it is that it would act as 
somewhat

of a filter.  It would allow folks to look at the new devs or not.  That
might be to some folks taste.  Great idea and I think I'll steal it. *l*

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Good points that I hadn't considered.  One thought, though, is that it 
sure

boosts a programmer's morale when they see their name up in lights, so to
speak, for the first time.  Maybe there should be a section entitled from
new developers or something to that effect?  Not in every issue, but once
in a while, there could be mention of what they've done in, say, the last
year, maybe in the issue near Christmas?

---
Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag



Hi Darren,

I do agree that the magazine could be streamlined by cutting out and
removing certain content that isn't up to par so to speak. Announcing
every simple freeware or amateur game might not be in our best
interests if we are hoping mainstream developers and gamers into our
ranks. Games like Guess the Numberor BopIt arent' that news worthy,
and I frankly feel that they probably shouldn't get much public
attention from the magazine.

I do think that we should be more professional about how we handle the
magazine and take our queue from professional gaming magazines. This
isn't being intended to be a put down, but mainstream magazines
generally don't publish news and articles on every single practice or
ametur game like Fred's Guess the Number out there. They tend to
publish articles and news based on established developers who have
reached a certain degree of quality and would be of interest to their
readers. If that sounds elitest so be it, but it doesn't hurt to think
about if the game being discussed would be of any real value to the
community at large rather than just filling space.

Let's be fair here. I know exactly how difficult it is to learn to
program, how much time, skill, and energy goes into programming games.
Every single developer starts with something extremely simple like
Blackjack, Guess the Number, or Paper Scissors Rock because they
require very little programming skill and experience to create. Every
developer starts with such simple games and slowly but surely create
more and more complex practice games until they are able to create the
next Shades of Doom or tank Commander. While there is nothing wrong
with helping a amateur developer with improving his/her Guess the
Number or Paper Scissors Rock game they are still only practice
amateur games. Such amateur developers should probably hold off
releasing anything official until they have released a product that
meets a reasonable standard of quality. Of course, what I would
consider a reasonable standard and what someone might consider a
reasonable standard could be quite different.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:

hi tom and all,

the Audyssey Magazine does do a great deal I think to show just how
effective this community can be.

Ok I do think that some of the game releases are a joke, like the 
numbers
games there are out there, hangman and the like, but also there have 
been
some fantastic games out there as well. Castaways among the best of 
them,

along with time of conflict, tank commander, yeah the story goes on.

Also another point to note as well is that the Magazine also allows for
people to share their experiences of games that weren't specifically
designed with blind people and accessibility in mind, but are otherwise
accessible. Core exiles for one, ashes of angels, unification wars and
many
other titles. Also another point to consider as well is that the 
Magazine

does have the ability to present a formal case for the inclusion of
accessibility in other game titles.

There are probably a lot more people subscribed to audiogames.net than
there
are on this list. I mean let's face it if we had a list with thousands 
of

people on it and active, because it's emails you would be swamped so for
practical reasons it's best to assume

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Charles and all,

Yes and no. Certainly it helps to have a large team of developers,
lots of money for bigger and better games, etc but that's not really
what Darren and I are getting at all. It has more to do with specific
features and standards that have already been set by mainstream games
similar to the one in which you intend to create. Even simple games
have standards already set by mainstream developers that should
attempt to be met when and where possible. Here is a clear cut example
of what I mean.

For instance, I'm going to compare the game Pull to a mainstream game
similar to it, and hopefully shed some constructive criticism how Pull
could be better if just a few features were added that is common in
mainstream arcade games. Now, I am fully aware it was the developers
first release, the developer is totally new programmer, and so on but
the fact still remains it has a ways to go to compare to a similar
mainstream game. At the moment the closest thing that comes to mind is
Duck Hunt for the classic NES.

In Pull someone launches clay pigeons from the left, they pass in
front of you, and you must load your shotgun and shoot them.  In Duck
Hunt Ducks will appear from the left or the right and pass in front of
you, and you must shoot them down. As I said its a similar concept,
but that's where the similarities begin and end as Duck Hunt is in
many respects a more complex game.

First, is the matter of difficulty or challenge. In Pull the speed of
the pigeons doesn't seem to change from round to round so you can
litterally keep shooting them and the game doesn't seem to get any
harder. In Duck Hunt every round or level gets a bit faster making it
harder and harder to shoot the ducks because the speed increases as
you rack up the rounds.

Second, is alternative directions. In Pull the pigeons always start
from the left side and fly right. In Duck Hunt ducks can start from
either the left or right, and it seems to be pretty random. So that
can throw you off as you never know which side the target will be
coming from.

Third, is multiple targets. In Pull there only seems to be a maximum
of one pigeon at a time. In Duck Hunt, depending on difficulty,  you
might have one, two, and sometimes three ducks on screen at once
making it much more challenging to get them all before they fly off
screen.

Fourth, two-player mode. In Pull there is only a single player mode.
In Duck Hunt, like most classic arcade games, it allowed you to set
the game up for single-player or two-player mode so you and a friend
could compete for the highest score.

Finally, the ability to actually aim your gun. In Pull the shotgun is
fixed dead center in the screen and won't allow you to move the gun
around. In Duck Hunt there was a NES controller, a gun that plugged
into the console, that allowed you to move the gun around on the
screen, site ducks, and shoot them down. You weren't just fixed in one
place.

As I said all of these points are raised in the hopes that they will
be taken as constructive criticism, and more over what I am suggesting
here isn't all that difficult for a single developer to add. It is not
necessarily comparing grapes to grapefruit, because I'm comparing two
games that are similar enough to each other to share the same kinds of
features, same type of game play, but don't have the same features or
quality because the developer probably didn't think those features
were necessary. Its simply that there are standards that have been set
by companies like Nintendo, even for a simple game like Duck Hunt, and
anything less than similar features and game play is below what I and
many mainstream gamers would see as par for that type of game. Many of
these improvements don't have to be particularly major, but it would
help if the developer would do his or her best to meet some kind of
mainstream standards like that when and where possible. The game
doesn't have to be the next Shades of Doom or Mysteries of the
Ancients to be mainstream quality. It just requires researching what
similar games have and try to add those kinds of features to their own
game if at all possible.

Cheers!



On 7/31/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Then again, if you were working for a company that produces mainstream
 games, there would be a whole group of co-workers.  In our community, there
 are not.  There would be a huge budget from which to draw, and in our
 community, there is not.  You would make a very good salary doing what you
 do, and in our community, you are not.  To me, unless I'm seeing it wrongly,
 you are comparing grapes to grapefruit.

 ---
 Security is not the absence of danger.  It is the presence of the Lord.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-31 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Darren,

Agreed. That was basically my point in my prior post on comparing Pull
to Duck Hunt. I don't think we should just accept a lower standard
because it is quicker, easier, it was a first game, whatever. There
are clear cut features that are easy enough to put in place and for
reasons only known to the developers who create the audio games they
aren't always followed or added.

For instance, take the analog jump system in Mysteries of the
Ancients. I've gotten a number of complaints about it simply because a
lot of VI gamers aren't use to timing a jump. Yet analog jumping has
been in about every mainstream game i can think of from Montezuma's
Revenge, to Super Mario Brothers, to Donkey Kong, to Tomb Raider. It
was actually something quite simple to add, and I find it a bit
surprising that I'm currently the only audio game developer using that
type of jump system in my games. That's just a small example of how
there is an existing standard in mainstream games that hasn't yet made
it into wide use in audio games yet.

Cheers!


On 7/31/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 Hi tom,

 Well in the end, fact always wins over fiction. So really to be blunt again,
 people need to stop burying their heads in the sand and face the music.
 These simple games aren't going to cut it in the real world. They're good to
 practice on I can see the logic in that in terms of how to get code working,
 but equally that doesn't to my mind justify a release each time. how many
 space invader clones do we have now? the only thing that hasn't really been
 cloned to death is packman which is good because the job that Phil did with
 packman talks is a masterpiece in it's own right.

 The facts are these:

 1. Developers are indeed starting from scratch and learning as they go. This
 I accept and openly acknowledge. I can't programme for the life of me so I'm
 not going to sit here and debate how easy or difficult x game is to create.
 2. whether a person is self-taught or whether you go to school and learn, we
 all have to start somewhere. Again I totally accept this. But with
 experience comes improved quality of product. It's just the same as with any
 business venture. The longer you are in a given business providing you
 survive, the more you can refine and train yourself to do better, produce a
 better product or service. So to put this into the gaming context, the more
 you progress the better games you can produce and also there's plenty of
 knowledge and resources here to draw upon.

 In the mainstream gaming community, too much cloning will simply bore people
 and you won't have the attention you once had. Which in the long run can and
 will only serve to damage you.

 If the Audyssey Magazine is constantly full of these clones and there isn't
 an effective streamlining process, then it will kill the Magazine. pure and
 simple. Thus why gaming Magazines have a rating system for games and not
 everything gets in.

 At the end of the day, it's the people that drive the types of games that
 are produced and it's the Magazines that effectively report back to the
 people. So my question is, in order to support the masses, are we going to
 just accept that there can be a ton of low budget games out there to play
 that aren't too different from each other? or is a little time and patients
 worth the increase in the quality of game? That is the trade-off isn't it.
 personally I'm content to sit back and see what happens. In other words, let
 the developers do what they're best at. Let the newbies learn how to develop
 to a set standard thus over time the wait will be less because the more
 progressing developers there are out there, the increase in titles we'll see
 over time.

 If you yourself were working in the mainstream community and it was taking
 as long as it's taking you now to develop your game, the simple fact is that
 until your game is released, people will go and play other titles because
 they are available and there. by adhering and accepting the lower quality
 games we're doing ourselves much more harm than good in the long run in my
 opinion.



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If you 

Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread dark

Hi Ron.

i'm pleased the mag is back.

while it's true the announcements in the mag really are duplicated on list 
or on audiogames.net (though obviously there ar people who do not check 
those places), for me it's the articals, reviews and editorials that are the 
interesting point.


Having a more formal setting and distribution means that people are more 
inclined to write seriously and considder what they are writing than just 
dashing off a quick response.


for this reason i'm very happy that the mag is back, and would certainly 
like it to continue coming out once every few months, though i might suggest 
that perhaps submissions be a litle more formal and you give us reminders 
when your looking for stuff, sinse obviously publishing in the mag is 
something which should be considdered.


this is what spag and other web zeense have done, concentrated on more 
formal submission of materials, and become more like a professional printed 
magazine.


Btw, formal does not equal boring, comedy stuff and funny materials are 
deffinately good too, I just mean encouraging people to take the time to 
write and think carefully, including better jokes.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ron,

That sounds fair in terms of catching the community up on past news
for the magazine, but I do have some concerns. For instance, I am
pretty sure I sent you some kind of press releases for MOTA. I would
hate to see you send out an announcement for say beta 17 when I'm
about to release beta 21 on Monday. I'm away from home today, but I
have plans to finish work on beta 21 this weekend so if there are any
past announcements for MOTA I'd prefer to pull them from the mag.

HTH

On 7/30/11, Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca wrote:
 Hi everyone

   I thought I would send this here to get feedback from this section of the
 list.  This will also go out to the mag only group as well.
   Granted I know it has been quite some time without an issue.  In order to
 catch up my thoughts were as follows.
   Send out issue #55 as it stands, then after sifting through the recovered
 emails send a supplement covering the released games since #54.  The
 potential articles I'll keep until the next issue.
   I am curious about how often you folks are interested in the mag, true
 alot of the material shows up here to my chagrin.  So how often would be
 good to wrap it up as an email newsletter?
   The folks on the mag only naturally haven't seen any of this conversation
 but I will send this to them as well.  Yes I did drop the ball.  For many
 reasons which I may or may not explain but I do sincerely want to keep
 Audyssey going.
   My inbox is open for any thoughts you may have.  Comments and such are
 always welcome, #55 will be out tomorrow at the latest, and a further
 announcement of games once I go through all the recovered emails.  Thanks to
 Damian for the program to do that.
   Looking forward to some input from folks.

 Take care
 Ron Schamerhorn
 blindwon...@cogeco.ca
 Audyssey Editor


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Tom

  Of course I'll only use the most up-to-date info I have.  Examples being 
I'll put in Jim's Awesome Homer, and since I know the next version of MOTA 
is coming out I'll let people know to check there in a few days.  Or I'll 
include it in the updated games list.  No worries, I'm not about to put 
someone on the hot seat.  Glad to be getting some feedback.

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron,

That sounds fair in terms of catching the community up on past news
for the magazine, but I do have some concerns. For instance, I am
pretty sure I sent you some kind of press releases for MOTA. I would
hate to see you send out an announcement for say beta 17 when I'm
about to release beta 21 on Monday. I'm away from home today, but I
have plans to finish work on beta 21 this weekend so if there are any
past announcements for MOTA I'd prefer to pull them from the mag.

HTH

On 7/30/11, Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca wrote:
 Hi everyone

   I thought I would send this here to get feedback from this section of 
 the
 list.  This will also go out to the mag only group as well.
   Granted I know it has been quite some time without an issue.  In order 
 to
 catch up my thoughts were as follows.
   Send out issue #55 as it stands, then after sifting through the 
 recovered
 emails send a supplement covering the released games since #54.  The
 potential articles I'll keep until the next issue.
   I am curious about how often you folks are interested in the mag, true
 alot of the material shows up here to my chagrin.  So how often would be
 good to wrap it up as an email newsletter?
   The folks on the mag only naturally haven't seen any of this 
 conversation
 but I will send this to them as well.  Yes I did drop the ball.  For many
 reasons which I may or may not explain but I do sincerely want to keep
 Audyssey going.
   My inbox is open for any thoughts you may have.  Comments and such are
 always welcome, #55 will be out tomorrow at the latest, and a further
 announcement of games once I go through all the recovered emails.  Thanks 
 to
 Damian for the program to do that.
   Looking forward to some input from folks.

 Take care
 Ron Schamerhorn
 blindwon...@cogeco.ca
 Audyssey Editor


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 list,
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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Dark

  I encourage everyone to write about some aspect of gaming.  Maybe a review 
of their favourite game, the best gamepad, what they like in ambiance or 
whatever.
  I don't think I've ever missed publishing something that has been sent to 
me.  I'm now of renewed spirit, ready to get it done, and keep it going for 
along time.

Thanks for the vote
Ron

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron.

i'm pleased the mag is back.

while it's true the announcements in the mag really are duplicated on list
or on audiogames.net (though obviously there ar people who do not check
those places), for me it's the articals, reviews and editorials that are the
interesting point.

Having a more formal setting and distribution means that people are more
inclined to write seriously and considder what they are writing than just
dashing off a quick response.

for this reason i'm very happy that the mag is back, and would certainly
like it to continue coming out once every few months, though i might suggest
that perhaps submissions be a litle more formal and you give us reminders
when your looking for stuff, sinse obviously publishing in the mag is
something which should be considdered.

this is what spag and other web zeense have done, concentrated on more
formal submission of materials, and become more like a professional printed
magazine.

Btw, formal does not equal boring, comedy stuff and funny materials are
deffinately good too, I just mean encouraging people to take the time to
write and think carefully, including better jokes.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread dark

Hi Ron.

well if that is the case, please let me know if your looking for articals, 
as obviously i would be interested in trying another myself, but also I can 
stick something on the audiogames.net site to the affect that anyone wanting 
to write a review or artical can send it to you for publication.


there has been some discussion about a review section for the site and some 
people wanting to write reviews, so if your publishing the mag again and 
including reviews there may well be some other people who'd like to 
contribute.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread darren harris
This is fantastic news! I've really missed the magazine. I'll be writing for
it again I used to enjoy the stuff I would produce a few years ago.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of dark
Sent: 30 July 2011 22:26
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Ron.

well if that is the case, please let me know if your looking for articals,
as obviously i would be interested in trying another myself, but also I can
stick something on the audiogames.net site to the affect that anyone wanting
to write a review or artical can send it to you for publication.

there has been some discussion about a review section for the site and some
people wanting to write reviews, so if your publishing the mag again and
including reviews there may well be some other people who'd like to
contribute.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Dark

  That's some fantastic news!  Myself I get rather muddled at forums so if 
people want to write about a game they like then it's wholeheartedly 
encouraged and gladly published.
  anytime is good to send something as the inbox is always open.  I'd rather 
think of what to hold back for the next issue.

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron.

well if that is the case, please let me know if your looking for articals,
as obviously i would be interested in trying another myself, but also I can
stick something on the audiogames.net site to the affect that anyone wanting
to write a review or artical can send it to you for publication.

there has been some discussion about a review section for the site and some
people wanting to write reviews, so if your publishing the mag again and
including reviews there may well be some other people who'd like to
contribute.

Beware the grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Darren

  That's great for me to hear as contributions go.  I'm always willing to 
read what people have to say about games.  Look forward to hearing from you.

Take care
Ron

- Original Message - 
From: darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com
To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


This is fantastic news! I've really missed the magazine. I'll be writing for
it again I used to enjoy the stuff I would produce a few years ago.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of dark
Sent: 30 July 2011 22:26
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

Hi Ron.

well if that is the case, please let me know if your looking for articals,
as obviously i would be interested in trying another myself, but also I can
stick something on the audiogames.net site to the affect that anyone wanting
to write a review or artical can send it to you for publication.

there has been some discussion about a review section for the site and some
people wanting to write reviews, so if your publishing the mag again and
including reviews there may well be some other people who'd like to
contribute.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread dark

Hi Ron.

Okay, I'll pass that on.

just out of interest, what is the mail address to send to?  is it stil 
blindwon...@cogeco.ca


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2011-07-30 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Dark

  Indeed I'm still at that address.  so feel free to let people know about 
it.

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2011 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron.

Okay, I'll pass that on.

just out of interest, what is the mail address to send to?  is it stil
blindwon...@cogeco.ca

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi all,
I'd also like to make a miner correction in something I found in the mag 
as well. In he article on Vista compatibility I said Chopper Command. 
That should have been Chopper Patrol.
I'll be sending out an updated version of the compatibility chart next 
mag with Dan Ze Games and others added into the list.


Ron Schamerhorn wrote:
 Hi all

   I'd like to apollogize for all the breaks which appear in the magazine.  I 
 double checked the message before it went out but regardless of effort it 
 seems to have put breaks where none were supposed to be put.
   If anyone knows OE enough I'd be very happy for any suggestions to solve 
 this problem.

 Thanks ahead of time
 Ron
 Audyssey Editor


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi all,
It was approved not long ago so should be finding it's way into your 
inboxes any time.
Be sure to check earlier in your inbox. Messages that get approved late 
tend to show up near the beginning of todays messages and not later in 
the days messages depending on when they were originally sent.
For example, a message that is sent out at 9:00 AM EST and isn't 
approved until say 12:00 PM EST when it shows up in your inbox will be 
time stamped with 9:00 AM EST, near the beginning of the days messages, 
rather than be in with the 2:00 PM batch of messages.
Hope this helps.



Orin wrote:
 Hi Ron,

 I don't think anyone got a copy of the mag, at least I didn't.

   


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi all,
The mag should be appearing in your inboxes shortly. Keep in mind it 
will likely show up earlier in your inbox than the current messages. 
Messages that are approved tend to show up according to the time they 
were originally sent rather than the time they were approved.
For example, a lister sends a message at 9:00 AM EST and that message 
isn't approved until 12:00 PM EST will show up earlier in your inbox 
with the older 9:00 AM messages and not with the 12:00 PM messages which 
was the time it was approved.
Hope this helps.


Orin wrote:
 Hi Ron,

 I don't think anyone got a copy of the mag, at least I didn't.

   


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,
Just for your info all attachments are stripped from emails including 
word documents for security reasons. There are to many viruses and other 
types of mal ware that can spread over a list such as this very rapidly 
if we didn't clean attachments.
Besides witch Word documents and html documents would increase the mags 
size, and not decrease it. In addition to that, many MS Word users fail 
to realise even Word *.doc files can contain viruses.
Basically, the method Ron is sending out the mag is fine with Raul and 
I. We know that message is apped to be large, and always approve them 
when we see them in the moderators inbox.

shaun everiss wrote:
 I just wandered that instead of sending the  mag in email form if you 
 sent it as an attached text file or word document, html page, whatever.
 i'm sure the mods would allow the file size thingy.
   


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-12 Thread Orin
Hi Ron,

I don't think anyone got a copy of the mag, at least I didn't.

-- 
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75.9°F(24.4°C) Wind:Calm
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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-12 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Orin

  It was just sent prior to my email question.  Being of that size it'll 
need mod approval to go through.  But if anyone has an answer keep the 
question in mind.


Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Orin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron,

I don't think anyone got a copy of the mag, at least I didn't.

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-12 Thread Niall
I didn't either although I missed the first week of august's e-mails on the 
list.
- Original Message - 
From: Orin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] About the mag


Hi Ron,

I don't think anyone got a copy of the mag, at least I didn't.

-- 
  Currently in Mount Holly, South Jersey Regional, New Jersey Clear, 
75.9°F(24.4°C) Wind:Calm
  Silence is one of the most effective forms of communication.
  Created by Weather Signature v1.20 . http://www.weathersig.com
  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Aim: orin8722

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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-12 Thread shaun everiss
I just wandered that instead of sending the  mag in email form if you 
sent it as an attached text file or word document, html page, whatever.
i'm sure the mods would allow the file size thingy.
At 02:44 p.m. 13/08/2007, you wrote:

Hi all

   I'd like to apollogize for all the breaks which appear in the magazine.  I
double checked the message before it went out but regardless of effort it
seems to have put breaks where none were supposed to be put.
   If anyone knows OE enough I'd be very happy for any suggestions to solve
this problem.

Thanks ahead of time
Ron
Audyssey Editor


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Re: [Audyssey] About the mag

2007-08-12 Thread shaun everiss
I never got one either.
At 02:52 p.m. 13/08/2007, you wrote:

Hi Ron,

I don't think anyone got a copy of the mag, at least I didn't.

--
   Currently in Mount Holly, South Jersey Regional, New Jersey 
 Clear, 75.9°F(24.4°C) Wind:Calm
   Silence is one of the most effective forms of communication.
   Created by Weather Signature v1.20 . http://www.weathersig.com
   Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Aim: orin8722

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To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 
12/08/2007 11:03 a.m.



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 12/08/2007 
11:03 a.m.



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