Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-23 Thread dark
Again, sounding worryingly familiar indeed,  though at least in the Us 
you can get the bennifit back at some point,  in the Uk you absolutely 
can't which is why Damien had to suddenly stop developing commercial games.


a most irritating system.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Hello,

In the US, the total amount of money you can have is $2000 if you are
single and $3000 if you are a married couple who are both on SSI or SSDI.

As for working, theyre are ways to get around the restrictions in order
to earn some money, but it is complicated, and if you screw the
calculations up, the government comes down quite hard on you.

Basically, if you receive SSDI, you can earn up to $700 per month
without penalty. Above that and you need to be very careful about
including your blind-related work expenses, and you must be very good
about keeping the proofs of everything you claim.

SSD will allow you to earn nice amounts of money for up to nine months
on the trial back to work program, and then you can receive another
three months if you follow the paperwork properly. After 12 months, the
SSD, and all related Medicare and MedicAid are removed. Finally, after
the year of benefits while earning other money has completed, you cannot
do it again for 72 months because, if you do, there is a good chance
that it could take up to two years to reestablish your benefits when you
stop working.

David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA


dark wrote:
This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very 
much the same way,  with the nastier restriction that you actually can 
only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot,  a penny over and 
everything goes west.


pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off!

On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to 
save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, 
sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money 
even to buy food,  let alone pay my tuition fees.


You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and 
keep disability bennifits,  and you can only work that 16 hours for a 
six month period as on the job training.


For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm 
trying to get his salicitor's training contract,  because he legally 
cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits,  and he couldn't 
make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working 
full time,  which he cannot do.


And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government 
for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice 
course,  which is going up by an extra £1000 a year!


Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which 
the deffinition in my thesis is going to address.


Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to 
inthusiasm about my research!


Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-23 Thread Jacob Kruger
Well, while this might be OT, I live here in South Africa, and it's nothing 
like any of these other countries...LOL!


In order to get a bit of pittance from government, you literally need to 
earn almost nothing, and while we don't have things like jury duty, we don't 
really have public transport that's really too usable as such etc. etc.


OTOH, disabled people count as what we call affirmative action, so you might 
get employed just to be there/on the payroll, but, no thank you!


Stay well

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Again, sounding worryingly familiar indeed,  though at least in the Us
you can get the bennifit back at some point,  in the Uk you absolutely
can't which is why Damien had to suddenly stop developing commercial games.

a most irritating system.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: David Chittenden dchitten...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Hello,

In the US, the total amount of money you can have is $2000 if you are
single and $3000 if you are a married couple who are both on SSI or SSDI.

As for working, theyre are ways to get around the restrictions in order
to earn some money, but it is complicated, and if you screw the
calculations up, the government comes down quite hard on you.

Basically, if you receive SSDI, you can earn up to $700 per month
without penalty. Above that and you need to be very careful about
including your blind-related work expenses, and you must be very good
about keeping the proofs of everything you claim.

SSD will allow you to earn nice amounts of money for up to nine months
on the trial back to work program, and then you can receive another
three months if you follow the paperwork properly. After 12 months, the
SSD, and all related Medicare and MedicAid are removed. Finally, after
the year of benefits while earning other money has completed, you cannot
do it again for 72 months because, if you do, there is a good chance
that it could take up to two years to reestablish your benefits when you
stop working.

David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA


dark wrote:
This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very 
much the same way,  with the nastier restriction that you actually can 
only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot,  a penny over and 
everything goes west.


pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off!

On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to 
save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, 
sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money 
even to buy food,  let alone pay my tuition fees.


You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and 
keep disability bennifits,  and you can only work that 16 hours for a 
six month period as on the job training.


For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm 
trying to get his salicitor's training contract,  because he legally 
cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits,  and he couldn't 
make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working 
full time,  which he cannot do.


And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government 
for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice 
course,  which is going up by an extra £1000 a year!


Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which 
the deffinition in my thesis is going to address.


Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to 
inthusiasm about my research!


Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-23 Thread shaun everiss
hmmm now you mention it we have a threshold  I think of 25k may be less.
Ofcause if you shove say 9k 10 k or so in your main account then you are 
probably asking for it.
Hmph being blind is a bit of a 2 edged sword.
in one way you are encouraged to work but in another you try to make some 
serious cash and you start losing stuff.
Ofcause if you make it then so be it but yeah.
At 12:03 a.m. 24/11/2009, you wrote:
Hi Shaun,

I am on allot of assistance programs and they are all income based or 
restricted.  I am on Social security disability income (SSDI) Government 
subsidized housing (HUD) Medicare, Medicaid, wellfair, food stamps and Ohio 
Care Star / Waver.  I have medical bills etc that those programs help with.  
And there is the thing about if I earn enough I could make it into a tax 
bracket or get kicked off of some of the assistance programs.  And I would 
definitely not try not reporting income.  I would be the one that would get 
caught. grin

BFN

Jim

The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax. Albert Einstein

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Willem
Sometimes the idea behind the game isn't properly thought through. If an 
idea makes sense, it can most likely be programmed with more or less 
effort. It's true, some things aren't worth the effort to program, but 
it is a trade off between time, effort and what you want to do.

dark wrote:

hi Tom.

It's just this is something which comes up a lot from various people, 
  including me. who have wild ideas about games and perhaps not 
enough forthought behind them as to whether they would be possible 
with current techniques, current sounds or whatever.


that's why a good and working knolidge of at least what is possible is 
needed even before you start considdering contracts etc.


Beware the gRue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Munawar Bijani

Hi Dar,
This is very well put. However, I can't be expected to know the ins and outs 
of baking bread if I'm not a baker. Similarly, a nonprogrammer can't be 
expected to know how daunting a suggestion would be to program. Indeed, many 
things--even to programmers--look easy, but are time-consuming to program 
depending on how well the game was designed from the start. For instance, 
building a game to run off of extremely generic input and conditions is more 
work in the beginning, but adding stuff later on then becomes so easy it's 
amazing. As an example, I was able to add an autoplay mode to TDV a couple 
days ago with just a few lines of code.


At the same time, some are difficult to code no matter how generic the 
game's running methods are. Even though it could be done with just one or 
two more lines of code, a programmer also has to consider performance 
impact, something we call running time. In the end, the impact a new 
feature will ahve on running time may not make it worth to code.


If someone suggests to me, have the engine start in the off position when 
the game starts, to them it's probably just a matter of tell the game the 
engine is off and tell the player to turn it on. Unfortunately, from a 
programming perspective, it's not as simple as startEngine();.


Again though, the person who suggestd it can't be expected to know that, and 
that's where the programmer's job comes in as dismissing or implementing 
features. I've had a lot of suggestions that have made it in to TDV, but I 
will agree tat some people take it too far--so much so that you can write a 
book called X's Suggestion: Why I Didn't Implement It. In the end though, 
whatever suggestion comes along is never a bad suggestion. I think everyone 
means well; in fact, I'd take it as a compliment that this person enjoys the 
game enough to offer up new features.

Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only 
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha

mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Al, saying i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game 
is a bit like I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a 
car


you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel,  but 
unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to 
speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car.


I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, 
I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them,   
sinse they might be totally impossible.


I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have 
the time to learn.


Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, 
what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put 
on those ideas,  as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed 
list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them.


Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting 
language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very 
nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as 
well.


That's certainly my hope,  though I might considder seeing if I can 
learn programming when my phd is finished,  assuming then of course 
I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely.


Beware the gRue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Al,

I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible game. 
 I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells accessible 
games.  Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money.  And of course the 
gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did not mention 
anything about the game idea that he has.  Don't suppose one would want to for 
fear that I would just take his idea and run with it.

BFN

Jim

Share and enjoy, share and enjoy!

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread dark

Hi Munawar.

This is exactly what I was getting at,  it wasn't meant as a don't make 
suggestions more a be careful what you suggest


I like to think that over a long time of playing various sorts of games and 
discussing them in detail,  even though I've never porgrammed a game, 
I've gained a litle understanding of what is easy to implement and what is 
not.


At the same time, I'd stil bow to the expertees of someone who had more 
practical experience than I have, and try to tailor my suggestions 
accordingly.


that's why suggesting and play testing and implementing needs to be such a 
major dialogue.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Munawar Bijani

Hi,
What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or 
she believes

...
In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, ... but you 
simply don't have the time to really learn how to program.

So what do you do? ...

Turning a game idea in to a game can be done, but the hours it takes to do 
it vary from programmer to programmer. There are programmers available for 
hire, but you'd have to be very specific on what you want. A hired 
programmer's job is to program, not to help draw out a plot or features 
list. That's where the challenge would be. You, as the man behind the 
project--the one with all the ideas, storylines, features, etc.--would be 
thinking differently than the programmer who programs these ideas into the 
game you want them to create. It could very well be that an idea you give 
them later on can't be done because of the way they programmed it, or it 
would cost you an unreasonable amount to code because the programmer would 
have to make unexpected changes.


Another reason your money will drain quickly is because there are several 
stages to a software development lifecycle. Among these are design. The 
programmer will have to (if they're a smart and experienced programmer) draw 
out a basic outline of how the game will work, from the programming 
perspective. This way, if all goes well and they did it correctly, the game 
they build will be running on a very generic core, allowing them to add new 
features and move stuff around without breaking the mass of the code. All 
the while their hourly counter is ticking away, and your money is going.


Developers can easily spend years of programming time, depending on how 
large-scale the game is. So yes, hired programmers exist, but it's not cheap 
labor.


How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the 
financial sharing

look like?

Good question. People have different opinions on this one. If you hire a 
programmer to work for you, they'll be under a contract that will lay out 
everything ahead of time. Contracts are an excellent way to seal a deal. The 
drawback is, once you sign a contract, it's pretty much a closed matter, and 
you can't change it without serious legal repercussions--once again costing 
money. Developers use contracts all the time--not always for financial 
reasons, I might add. For instance, I've had to have some parents of minors 
sign an agreement for me because their child participated--no matter how 
minutely--in the development of TDV.


Granted, the terms of the financial agreement are up to you and the 
programmer you are hiring. If done correctly, contracts will save a lot of 
headake in the long run since both of you know what you are proportioned.


I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work 
put into

a project How does one go about
avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an 
arrangement?


It is possible. Remember though, humans will do anything at all to satisfy 
their needs. The more legal protection you have, the better. What I suggest 
you do if you ever go in to a contract is to have witnesses present. Ask 
your employee several times whether or not they accept the agreement, and 
get all of your witnesses to sign testifying that the person agreed fully. 
Present them with ridiculous amounts. For instance, you can say something 
like suppose the game brought in $5. Is this agreement still 
acceptable? That way, if indeed the game brings in $50,000 and they 
challenge you, you and your witnesses are there to testify against yor 
employee.


I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for just 
knowledge

sake as well to see what everyone thinks.

No problem, you have very legitimate questions, and not everyone is expected 
to be a programmer; otherwise programmers wouldn't be in such high demand as 
they are now.

Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only 
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha

mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com 



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi folks,

I work with contractors all the time and as Eleanor says, it's absolutely 
vital to get the specification as thurrow and detailed as possible. I've 
found www.RentACoder.com to be very good, especially if the budget is tight.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Eleanor elea...@7128.com

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:12 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without
problems regarding ownership and the like.  The only way that really
works is to have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells
out all the details of rights, payment and the like.

There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of
doing what you want.  The contract would spell out the deliverables, the
time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement.  Depending on the size
and specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this
time when work is harder to come by than in really great economic times,
you can probably find someone who could do it.  You would need to get
specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to
do the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you
want.  I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and
Jim can help to identify what skills you should be looking for to
develop the game you are thinking about.

Eleanor Robinson
7-128 Software





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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Willem

Now that's a very good point.
Jim Kitchen wrote:

Hi Al,

I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an 
accessible game.  I have also been asked to join a company that 
produces and sells accessible games.  Unfortunately I can not afford 
to make any money.  And of course the gentleman that offered me the 10 
to 15 thousand dollars did not mention anything about the game idea 
that he has.  Don't suppose one would want to for fear that I would 
just take his idea and run with it.


BFN

Jim

Share and enjoy, share and enjoy!

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Allan Thompson

Thanks for that information. It is good to know. smile.

al
- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi folks,

I work with contractors all the time and as Eleanor says, it's absolutely 
vital to get the specification as thurrow and detailed as possible. I've 
found www.RentACoder.com to be very good, especially if the budget is 
tight.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Eleanor elea...@7128.com

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:12 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without
problems regarding ownership and the like.  The only way that really
works is to have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells
out all the details of rights, payment and the like.

There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of
doing what you want.  The contract would spell out the deliverables, the
time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement.  Depending on the size
and specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this
time when work is harder to come by than in really great economic times,
you can probably find someone who could do it.  You would need to get
specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to
do the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you
want.  I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and
Jim can help to identify what skills you should be looking for to
develop the game you are thinking about.

Eleanor Robinson
7-128 Software





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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Allan Thompson
This seems to be the growing consensus. It is good to know this for future 
reference. grin.

thanks
al
- Original Message - 
From: Eleanor elea...@7128.com

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:12 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without problems 
regarding ownership and the like.  The only way that really works is to 
have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells out all the 
details of rights, payment and the like.
There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of 
doing what you want.  The contract would spell out the deliverables, the 
time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement.  Depending on the size and 
specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this time when 
work is harder to come by than in really great economic times, you can 
probably find someone who could do it.  You would need to get 
specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to do 
the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you want. 
I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and Jim can 
help to identify what skills you should be looking for to develop the game 
you are thinking about.

Eleanor Robinson
7-128 Software





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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Allan Thompson

Great post, thanks.

al
- Original Message - 
From: Munawar Bijani munaw...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi,
What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or 
she believes

...
In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, ... but 
you simply don't have the time to really learn how to program.

So what do you do? ...

Turning a game idea in to a game can be done, but the hours it takes to do 
it vary from programmer to programmer. There are programmers available for 
hire, but you'd have to be very specific on what you want. A hired 
programmer's job is to program, not to help draw out a plot or features 
list. That's where the challenge would be. You, as the man behind the 
project--the one with all the ideas, storylines, features, etc.--would be 
thinking differently than the programmer who programs these ideas into the 
game you want them to create. It could very well be that an idea you give 
them later on can't be done because of the way they programmed it, or it 
would cost you an unreasonable amount to code because the programmer would 
have to make unexpected changes.


Another reason your money will drain quickly is because there are several 
stages to a software development lifecycle. Among these are design. The 
programmer will have to (if they're a smart and experienced programmer) 
draw out a basic outline of how the game will work, from the programming 
perspective. This way, if all goes well and they did it correctly, the 
game they build will be running on a very generic core, allowing them to 
add new features and move stuff around without breaking the mass of the 
code. All the while their hourly counter is ticking away, and your money 
is going.


Developers can easily spend years of programming time, depending on how 
large-scale the game is. So yes, hired programmers exist, but it's not 
cheap labor.


How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the 
financial sharing

look like?

Good question. People have different opinions on this one. If you hire a 
programmer to work for you, they'll be under a contract that will lay out 
everything ahead of time. Contracts are an excellent way to seal a deal. 
The drawback is, once you sign a contract, it's pretty much a closed 
matter, and you can't change it without serious legal repercussions--once 
again costing money. Developers use contracts all the time--not always for 
financial reasons, I might add. For instance, I've had to have some 
parents of minors sign an agreement for me because their child 
participated--no matter how minutely--in the development of TDV.


Granted, the terms of the financial agreement are up to you and the 
programmer you are hiring. If done correctly, contracts will save a lot of 
headake in the long run since both of you know what you are proportioned.


I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work 
put into

a project How does one go about
avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an 
arrangement?


It is possible. Remember though, humans will do anything at all to satisfy 
their needs. The more legal protection you have, the better. What I 
suggest you do if you ever go in to a contract is to have witnesses 
present. Ask your employee several times whether or not they accept the 
agreement, and get all of your witnesses to sign testifying that the 
person agreed fully. Present them with ridiculous amounts. For instance, 
you can say something like suppose the game brought in $5. Is this 
agreement still acceptable? That way, if indeed the game brings in 
$50,000 and they challenge you, you and your witnesses are there to 
testify against yor employee.


I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for 
just knowledge

sake as well to see what everyone thinks.

No problem, you have very legitimate questions, and not everyone is 
expected to be a programmer; otherwise programmers wouldn't be in such 
high demand as they are now.

Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is 
only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha

mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com

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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Allan Thompson

Hi Jim,
Yikes, ten thousand dollars up front is a bit much out of anything I could 
bring to the table, but I understand precisely what you mean when you say 
you can't afford to make money. It is funny, but also kind of  frustrating.
To be honest, money isn't really an issue with me. If I knew that someone 
would commit themselves to getting the job done from beginning to end, they 
can have all the profits, as long as I had reasonable creative control. 
Meaning that the story and structure of plot, characters, etc and so forth I 
would like the final say on but if something was too hard or too off base, I 
can switch gears to fit the new parameters. I am thinking of just writing up 
the ideas into a form for people to read, maybe submit it to the list or to 
the magazine and let it go.

Thanks for writing,
al

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net

To: Allan Thompson Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi Al,

I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible 
game.  I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells 
accessible games.  Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money.  And 
of course the gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did 
not mention anything about the game idea that he has.  Don't suppose one 
would want to for fear that I would just take his idea and run with it.


BFN

Jim

Share and enjoy, share and enjoy!

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Allan Thompson
Some good points that I never thought of, Tom. Geez, what a mess that can 
be.


al
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi Charles,
Yes, things can get very messy in that situation. For that precise reason 
that's why most mainstream game companies refuse end user suggestions, 
story ideas, game ideas, etc. They know they have to sign a contract with 
them, and that could become a legal nightmare. Especially, if the game 
happens to be come very popular.


Let's assume Joe Smith were to sign a contract with Sony Entertainment 
allowing them to use his ideas for Star Warrior for the grand sum of 10% 
of the  total income. Well, it turns out Star Warrior is very popular and 
grosses 50 million dollars. Here is the guy with all the ideas and he gets 
only a meager 5 million for his idea when Sony walks away with the other 
45 million. Suddenly he thinks he got shafted, got the short end of the 
stick, so now he sues Sony and wants a bigger chunk of the money. Say at 
least 20 million for his idea. Sony is going to tell him to jump in a lake 
because he got paid according to the contract, but he claims that the 
terms of the contract were unfair, that he was forced into accepting a 
lower percentage of the income, and so on. Now, he wants to renegotiate 
more favorable terms in the original contract. You can see how that could 
turn into a legal nightmare. The only people who get ritch in a case like 
that is the lawyers who will want their big chunk of the pie too.



Charles Rivard wrote:
I thought it was an interesting question, and from your first response, 
it sounds like things could get messy when it comes to having someone 
else do your programming.





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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread shaun everiss
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like 
damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are 
earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph.
At 01:53 a.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:
Hi Al,

I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible 
game.  I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells 
accessible games.  Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money.  And of 
course the gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did not 
mention anything about the game idea that he has.  Don't suppose one would 
want to for fear that I would just take his idea and run with it.

BFN

Jim

Share and enjoy, share and enjoy!

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Shaun,
Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on 
SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved.
I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how 
it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month 
without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for 
every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain 
point Social security cuts  the person off at the knees as he/she is 
making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in 
their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of 
what you made. Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your 
earnings can actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and 
Social Security Administration money. Not to say the least the person 
can do some serious jail time. So making money especially, unreported 
money, while on SSI can be a serious problem.
I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to 
take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is 
more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too.


shaun everiss wrote:

what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like 
damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are 
earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph.
  



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread dark
This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very 
much the same way,  with the nastier restriction that you actually can 
only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot,  a penny over and everything 
goes west.


pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off!

On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save 
extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse 
otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to 
buy food,  let alone pay my tuition fees.


You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and 
keep disability bennifits,  and you can only work that 16 hours for a 
six month period as on the job training.


For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm 
trying to get his salicitor's training contract,  because he legally 
cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits,  and he couldn't 
make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working 
full time,  which he cannot do.


And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government 
for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice 
course,  which is going up by an extra £1000 a year!


Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the 
deffinition in my thesis is going to address.


Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to 
inthusiasm about my research!


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread shaun everiss
aah I understand
we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds that 
if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to that 
effect.
Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues 
than here.
we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't 
bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this quicker 
when we have less people is beyond me.
At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:
Hi Shaun,
Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI or 
SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved.
I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it 
works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it 
effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two 
dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social 
security cuts  the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to 
qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS 
for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to 
inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the 
person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. 
Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making money 
especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem.
I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take 
money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more 
flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too.

shaun everiss wrote:
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like 
damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we 
are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph.
  


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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread dark
Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my thesis, 
sinse it does seem a better model on this point.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



aah I understand
we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds 
that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to 
that effect.
Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more 
issues than here.
we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which 
shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places 
get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me.

At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,
Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI 
or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved.
I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how 
it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without 
it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two 
dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social 
security cuts  the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to 
qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the 
IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. 
Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can 
actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security 
Administration money. Not to say the least the person can do some serious 
jail time. So making money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can 
be a serious problem.
I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take 
money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more 
flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too.


shaun everiss wrote:
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions 
like damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if 
we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph.





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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread shaun everiss
well on that note I have a couple accounts one is for investments and every so 
often I keep shoveling cash betwene the 2 accounts.
so I don't get too much in either.
Ofcause I don't usually have much  cash as I contribute to board at home food 
power the net and other things as well as family stuff.
My money gets mixed in with the family cash so no one loses out and its not 
like I am idol.
this does mean on ocations I do have a bit of a large overdraft from 20 cents 
to a few hundred bucks in my account, but this goes away with the next payment 
or the next transfer.
I don't look at my accounts as much as I should, but I know that is what 
happens as I have been told that is what happens.
There is no restriction per say but lets just say we don't take things for 
granted here.
At 04:37 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:
This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very much 
the same way,  with the nastier restriction that you actually can only 
have £6000 in savings or lose the lot,  a penny over and everything goes 
west.

pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off!

On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save 
extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse 
otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to 
buy food,  let alone pay my tuition fees.

You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and keep 
disability bennifits,  and you can only work that 16 hours for a six month 
period as on the job training.

For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm trying 
to get his salicitor's training contract,  because he legally cannot earn 
the money without losing his bennifits,  and he couldn't make more than 
what his bennifits are giving him currently without working full time,  
which he cannot do.

And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government for 
his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice course, 
 which is going up by an extra £1000 a year!

Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the 
deffinition in my thesis is going to address.

Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to 
inthusiasm about my research!

Beware the grue!

Dark. 

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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread shaun everiss
hmmm.
i have not touched this but we have laws that make us exempt from jury duty for 
instance and other things.
Its sertainly a fearer system.
Supprising than the us or uk, I think that its ok if your spouse is blind and 
you have blind childrent o though I only had one cast but it seems that we have 
a semi fearer system as supposed to others.
on that note we are going way off topic, dark if you want to take anything up 
with me then I think we better go off list.
At 04:46 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:
Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my thesis, 
sinse it does seem a better model on this point.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


aah I understand
we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds 
that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to 
that effect.
Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues 
than here.
we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't 
bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this 
quicker when we have less people is beyond me.
At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:
Hi Shaun,
Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI 
or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved.
I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it 
works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it 
effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two 
dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social 
security cuts  the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to 
qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS 
for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to 
inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the 
person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. 
Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making 
money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem.
I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take 
money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more 
flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too.

shaun everiss wrote:
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like 
damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we 
are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph.


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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread dark
I'll considder that sean,  right now I'm at the heavily deffinitiojnal 
end of my thesis, --- trying to establish all the ground work for the sort 
of principles I'm trying for.


Blind people are also exempt from jury duty here too,  it's just the 
inability to save, and the laws concerning bennifits which are such a 
nightmare as I've outlined.


Either way, sinse this is Ot I'll stop.

Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



hmmm.
i have not touched this but we have laws that make us exempt from jury 
duty for instance and other things.

Its sertainly a fearer system.
Supprising than the us or uk, I think that its ok if your spouse is blind 
and you have blind childrent o though I only had one cast but it seems 
that we have a semi fearer system as supposed to others.
on that note we are going way off topic, dark if you want to take anything 
up with me then I think we better go off list.

At 04:46 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:
Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my 
thesis, sinse it does seem a better model on this point.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



aah I understand
we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the 
grounds that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or 
something to that effect.
Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more 
issues than here.
we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which 
shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places 
get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me.

At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,
Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on 
SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved.
I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how 
it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month 
without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for 
every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain 
point Social security cuts  the person off at the knees as he/she is 
making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in 
their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of 
what you made. Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your 
earnings can actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and 
Social Security Administration money. Not to say the least the person 
can do some serious jail time. So making money especially, unreported 
money, while on SSI can be a serious problem.
I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to 
take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is 
more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too.


shaun everiss wrote:
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions 
like damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause 
if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but 
hmph.



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread David Chittenden

Hello,

In the US, the total amount of money you can have is $2000 if you are 
single and $3000 if you are a married couple who are both on SSI or SSDI.


As for working, theyre are ways to get around the restrictions in order 
to earn some money, but it is complicated, and if you screw the 
calculations up, the government comes down quite hard on you.


Basically, if you receive SSDI, you can earn up to $700 per month 
without penalty. Above that and you need to be very careful about 
including your blind-related work expenses, and you must be very good 
about keeping the proofs of everything you claim.


SSD will allow you to earn nice amounts of money for up to nine months 
on the trial back to work program, and then you can receive another 
three months if you follow the paperwork properly. After 12 months, the 
SSD, and all related Medicare and MedicAid are removed. Finally, after 
the year of benefits while earning other money has completed, you cannot 
do it again for 72 months because, if you do, there is a good chance 
that it could take up to two years to reestablish your benefits when you 
stop working.


David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA


dark wrote:
This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work 
very much the same way,  with the nastier restriction that you 
actually can only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot,  a penny 
over and everything goes west.


pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off!

On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able 
to save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents 
hold, sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve 
enough money even to buy food,  let alone pay my tuition fees.


You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month 
and keep disability bennifits,  and you can only work that 16 
hours for a six month period as on the job training.


For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm 
trying to get his salicitor's training contract,  because he 
legally cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits,  and 
he couldn't make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently 
without working full time,  which he cannot do.


And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the 
government for his five years at university geting a law degree and 
legal practice course,  which is going up by an extra £1000 a year!


Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, 
which the deffinition in my thesis is going to address.


Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to 
inthusiasm about my research!


Beware the grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-22 Thread David Chittenden

Hello,

That depends on what your thesis is. If it is about countries providing 
benefits for those who are blind, NZ and AU appear to have some of the 
better financial support systems set up.


I am surprised to hear that the set-up in the UK is not so good. I 
thought it was similar to that of NZ and AU.


If your thesis is about overall societal supports for the blind, this 
gets a little more complicated. I moved out to NZ eight months ago. 
Since I have arrived here, and I am living in Christchurch, I have only 
found one lift with braille or tactile markings on it, and the same with 
toilet doors. Don't even get me started about the buses. I have been 
purposefully passed by by buses when the driver realized I was the only 
person at the stop and noticed my guide dog, and I regularly have 
drivers forget about my requested stop; in one case causing me to miss 
an important business meeting because it took an hour to get back to the 
location. Note: this usually occurs at least three times per week. I 
have also had the transit authority tell me that I need to understand 
that when the bus is full, it is completely understandable if the driver 
forgets about my stop, so the driver will not be repremanded in any way.


Every place has its positives and its negatives regarding how its blind 
residents are treated.


David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA


dark wrote:
Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my 
thesis, sinse it does seem a better model on this point.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



aah I understand
we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the 
grounds that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or 
something to that effect.
Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more 
issues than here.
we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which 
shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small 
places get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me.

At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,
Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is 
on SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved.
I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is 
how it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per 
month without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a 
dollar for every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After 
a certain point Social security cuts  the person off at the knees as 
he/she is making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she 
must turn in their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS 
takes their cut of what you made. Failing to inform Social Security 
and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the person involved 
owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. Not to 
say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making 
money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious 
problem.
I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him 
to take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. 
SSDI is more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved 
there too.


shaun everiss wrote:
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit 
restrictions like damien does?
In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, 
ofcause if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go 
away but hmph.





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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread dark
Al, saying i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game is 
a bit like I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car


you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel,  but 
unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to 
speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car.


I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I 
do not share them or try to commition another person to make them,   
sinse they might be totally impossible.


I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have 
the time to learn.


Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what 
ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on 
those ideas,  as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, 
than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them.


Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting 
language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice 
short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well.


That's certainly my hope,  though I might considder seeing if I can 
learn programming when my phd is finished,  assuming then of course I'm 
not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely.


Beware the gRue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net

To: gamers discussion list Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:30 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi all,
Weird title, I know, but I thought it fit the question I am going to ask.

What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or 
she believes may be a big hit in the audio community.
It would most likely be profitable too, but that wouldn't be the main 
focus for making the game.
In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, not sure 
how much that would be, but you simply don't have the time to really learn 
how to program.
So what do you do? Can you hire or comission someone to program a game for 
you based on your specific guidelines? Is anyone willing to do that, and 
how much money would it cost to make something like that happen?
How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the 
financial sharing look like?
I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work 
put into a project. Maybe it was Phil Vlasic with dark castle maybe. How 
does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to 
accomplish such an arrangement?


I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for 
just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks.


al


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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Al,

When you come up with a game idea, story line, etc then contract with a 
developer to create the game there are two copyrights involved with the 
production. First, as the person with the idea, game story, etc you 
retain the original copyright ownership of your ideas and original 
story. Second, the person or company that creates the game holds the 
multimedia copyright for the game since they were the person who 
actually created the multimedia. Both copyrights are separate but 
connected copyrights, and it is important to spell out who has what 
copyright ownership here. As I understand the law you retain the 
ownership of the game idea or ideas , but the company or person who 
actually creates the game retains the ownership of the game they created.


The best legal way to go about this is to draft a legal document that 
states person x or company x has the right to create games or multimedia 
works based on your idea for a certain percentage of the income. Let's 
say for arguments sake you contract with USA Games to create game x. We 
may agree to give you 25% of the income of the game and keep the rest 
for production costs. So if the game makes $2000 we would pay you $500 
for royalties, pay out say $500 for sounds and music, and keep the 
remaining $1000 as payment for labor costs. This way you still make some 
money on your original ideas, but the developers and sound production 
people get paid for their work.


The only time I know of an accessible game developer trying this is when 
BSC Games contracted with another developer to create Castle Quest. 
Unfortunately, the lead developer of the project decided to quit 
production leaving Justin without a title to market and sell. Legally 
BSC Games still holds the original copyrights to the Castle Quest game 
idea, but the person they contracted with retained the rights to the 
game and source code. So when the lead developer quit production he took 
the game and source code with him. BSC could have contracted with 
someone else, but Justin decided it was not worth it to try it  again 
with a new party.


The only way to protect yourself from this happening is to sign a legal 
contract with the party that stipulates the terms of service to be 
rendered. That way the company or person involved is legally bound to 
complete the project in a timely manner. There, of course, has to be 
some terms in the contract in which either party can break the contract 
if necessary, but there usually are some fines or penalties involved 
with breech of contract.


HTH


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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Allan Thompson

Ok, I can live with that.
Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know.

al
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Al, saying i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game 
is a bit like I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a 
car


you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel,  but 
unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to 
speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car.


I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, 
I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them,   
sinse they might be totally impossible.


I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have 
the time to learn.


Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, 
what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put 
on those ideas,  as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed 
list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them.


Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting 
language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very 
nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as 
well.


That's certainly my hope,  though I might considder seeing if I can 
learn programming when my phd is finished,  assuming then of course 
I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely.


Beware the gRue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net

To: gamers discussion list Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:30 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi all,
Weird title, I know, but I thought it fit the question I am going to ask.

What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or 
she believes may be a big hit in the audio community.
It would most likely be profitable too, but that wouldn't be the main 
focus for making the game.
In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, not sure 
how much that would be, but you simply don't have the time to really 
learn how to program.
So what do you do? Can you hire or comission someone to program a game 
for you based on your specific guidelines? Is anyone willing to do that, 
and how much money would it cost to make something like that happen?
How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the 
financial sharing look like?
I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work 
put into a project. Maybe it was Phil Vlasic with dark castle maybe. How 
does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to 
accomplish such an arrangement?


I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for 
just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks.


al


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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Dark,
Ummm...Comparing game programming to building a car is a bit far 
fetched. Any developer would be able to tell Al where his ideas wouldn't 
be feasible or possible, and the two could work together to come up with 
a compromise for sure. Of course, a lot relies on the skill of  the 
developer being asked to do the work. Obviously if Al wants a developer 
to create a side-scroller like Mysteries of the Ancients  or an FPS game 
like Shades of Doom he would probably want to try developers he knows 
specializes in such types of games. He wouldn't want to contract with a 
developer who specializes in card, board, and puzzle games. From a 
programming standpoint both types of games require different skills to 
complete.


dark wrote:
Al, saying i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a 
game is a bit like I have no idea about engineering but a great idea 
for a car


you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel,  but 
unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates 
to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car.


I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game 
ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make 
them,   sinse they might be totally impossible.


I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point 
have the time to learn.


Your much better considdering what is possible with current 
techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your 
informated in put on those ideas,  as nded you are doing on this 
list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games 
with nobody to make them.


Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting 
language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a 
very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much 
programming as well.


That's certainly my hope,  though I might considder seeing if I 
can learn programming when my phd is finished,  assuming then of 
course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also 
likely.


Beware the grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Al,
There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There 
is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. 
Dark was just over reacting I think. Grin


Allan Thompson wrote:

Ok, I can live with that.
Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know.

al



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Willem
Also from a programming standpoint there are an endless number of ways 
to solve a problem, AKA programming, and everybody has their unique 
style and ideas of what can be done in practice.


I would rather compare it with a profession like the law or maybe in 
some ways mathematicians.


However there are just one way to build a basic engine, for example. 
There could be many ways to make it better, but only a limited number of 
ways of building it.

Thomas Ward wrote:

Hi Dark,
Ummm...Comparing game programming to building a car is a bit far 
fetched. Any developer would be able to tell Al where his ideas 
wouldn't be feasible or possible, and the two could work together to 
come up with a compromise for sure. Of course, a lot relies on the 
skill of  the developer being asked to do the work. Obviously if Al 
wants a developer to create a side-scroller like Mysteries of the 
Ancients  or an FPS game like Shades of Doom he would probably want to 
try developers he knows specializes in such types of games. He 
wouldn't want to contract with a developer who specializes in card, 
board, and puzzle games. From a programming standpoint both types of 
games require different skills to complete.


dark wrote:
Al, saying i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a 
game is a bit like I have no idea about engineering but a great 
idea for a car


you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel,  
but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel 
relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable 
idea for a car.


I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game 
ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make 
them,   sinse they might be totally impossible.


I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point 
have the time to learn.


Your much better considdering what is possible with current 
techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your 
informated in put on those ideas,  as nded you are doing on this 
list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games 
with nobody to make them.


Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's 
scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there 
may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much 
programming as well.


That's certainly my hope,  though I might considder seeing if I 
can learn programming when my phd is finished,  assuming then of 
course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is 
also likely.


Beware the grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Allan Thompson

Thanks Tom.  I am sure Dark was telling me his honest opinion.
I knew that failed game had castle in the name. That was a disappointment 
thru no fault of Justin and that is a situation I would be concerned with. I 
would want to see the project completed to the end.
I always assumed that money would be handed over first for production 
expenses like music, sound effects, and voice acting, then the actual 
release of the game would be split according to contract...or is that what 
you said? Maybe I misunderstood. I thought 10% for the cretive element was 
the going rate, LOL. Man I was way off on that.
Ok, so if I understand this right. Get a programmer/programming company. Get 
a contract, they make game, game gets sold, split earnings according to 
contract barring any problems between contract signing and completion.
Does the creative idea guy or gal get any creative input into the project or 
does that have to be contractually listed as well?


al





rday, November 21, 2009 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi Al,
There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There is 
no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. Dark 
was just over reacting I think. Grin


Allan Thompson wrote:

Ok, I can live with that.
Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know.

al



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Al,
All of the questions you asked are all subject to the terms of the 
contract. Weather or not you have to pay for things like sounds, music, 
up front or the developer will fit the cost of those is between you and 
the contractor. However, given the fact the contractor will need some 
sort of start up capital I'd say you would have to come up with some 
sort of payment in advance. Same goes for the actual percentage of how 
much you earn off of the game royalties. As far as how much input you 
get into creating the game I would assume you would have the final say 
if you are the one paying the developer to create the project out of pocket.


Let's use this as an example. Let's say you came up with this really 
cool game idea called Star Warrior, and you had a general idea of the 
characters, enemies, hazards the hero would face, etc. Then, you 
approached USA Games to create it.


You would begin with a written game proposal explaining to me what the 
game was about, a brief overview of the things you wanted in the game, 
and of course I would review it. If I liked the game proposal we could 
negotiate some sort of contract so that we could write, produce, and 
publish Star Warrior.


After that we would work together to create a game outline. That is an 
authoritative document that covers the back story for the game, detailed 
information about all of the game characters, enemies, hazards, and a 
written description of the game level by level. Once we have agreed on 
the rough draft of  the game outline USA Games could actually begin 
development of the game.



Allan Thompson wrote:

Thanks Tom.  I am sure Dark was telling me his honest opinion.
I knew that failed game had castle in the name. That was a 
disappointment thru no fault of Justin and that is a situation I would 
be concerned with. I would want to see the project completed to the end.
I always assumed that money would be handed over first for production 
expenses like music, sound effects, and voice acting, then the actual 
release of the game would be split according to contract...or is that 
what you said? Maybe I misunderstood. I thought 10% for the cretive 
element was the going rate, LOL. Man I was way off on that.
Ok, so if I understand this right. Get a programmer/programming 
company. Get a contract, they make game, game gets sold, split 
earnings according to contract barring any problems between contract 
signing and completion.
Does the creative idea guy or gal get any creative input into the 
project or does that have to be contractually listed as well?


al



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread Charles Rivard
I thought it was an interesting question, and from your first response, it 
sounds like things could get messy when it comes to having someone else do 
your programming.
---
Shepherds are the best beasts.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game


Hi Al,
There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There
is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games.
Dark was just over reacting I think. Grin

Allan Thompson wrote:
 Ok, I can live with that.
 Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know.

 al


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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread dark
Technically there's no such thing as a stupid suggestion,  just ones 
which are or are not currently practical.


You do highlight one very important thing, - how much level editers and 
game creation tools which would let people like me and thee with ideas but 
know practical skill create extra audio game content,  everything from 
just a single level or track for an existing game like Railracer, - to a 
full scale new game.


Che has the rail racer track editer, Tom is working on the genesis 3D 
engine, and philip on the game creation toolkit,  so it's helpful for 
them to know.


When these tools are complete,  let your ideas run rampent,  and put 
them into practice yourself!


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread dark

hi Tom.

It's just this is something which comes up a lot from various people,   
including me. who have wild ideas about games and perhaps not enough 
forthought behind them as to whether they would be possible with current 
techniques, current sounds or whatever.


that's why a good and working knolidge of at least what is possible is 
needed even before you start considdering contracts etc.


Beware the gRue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi Dark,
Ummm...Comparing game programming to building a car is a bit far fetched. 
Any developer would be able to tell Al where his ideas wouldn't be 
feasible or possible, and the two could work together to come up with a 
compromise for sure. Of course, a lot relies on the skill of  the 
developer being asked to do the work. Obviously if Al wants a developer to 
create a side-scroller like Mysteries of the Ancients  or an FPS game like 
Shades of Doom he would probably want to try developers he knows 
specializes in such types of games. He wouldn't want to contract with a 
developer who specializes in card, board, and puzzle games. From a 
programming standpoint both types of games require different skills to 
complete.


dark wrote:
Al, saying i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game 
is a bit like I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a 
car


you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel,  but 
unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to 
speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car.


I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game 
ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make 
them,   sinse they might be totally impossible.


I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point 
have the time to learn.


Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, 
what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in 
put on those ideas,  as nded you are doing on this list and the 
entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make 
them.


Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting 
language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very 
nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as 
well.


That's certainly my hope,  though I might considder seeing if I can 
learn programming when my phd is finished,  assuming then of course 
I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely.


Beware the grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game

2009-11-21 Thread dark
It certainly wasn't my intention to be insulting or put people off,   
only to note that there's a difference betwene having ideas,  and having 
practcial ideas,  one I've myself crossed on many occasions.


Ultimately though, Tom is right,  it's afterall his job as the 
programmer to say what is or is not practical.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game



Hi Al,
There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There is 
no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. Dark 
was just over reacting I think. Grin


Allan Thompson wrote:

Ok, I can live with that.
Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know.

al



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