Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread shaun everiss
well tom, when entombed was in testing, we would jump from alpha to 
beta status quite a lot.

Each alpha had several revisions, then would jump to beta then full.
We did that till 1.0, then almost immediatly after 1.02, we dropped 
to beta revisions because of bugs.

In the latest test unstable version we have dropped to alpha again.
So we only stayed in production mode for a little while, so it can go 
backwards as well as foreward and can do that many times over.

At 08:55 a.m. 15/06/2011, you wrote:

Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an
experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going
to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental
cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up
to their personal standards.

The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my
intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what
I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the
release so people will be informed what problems are in the release
and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try
and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior
release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge
code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Trouble
Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the 
questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for 
the program.

How many do you actually know that read them?
I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs.
Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community.

At 08:51 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:
I still contend that a beta is just that.  A trial version that is 
still under development.  Anyone who doesn't know that will find out 
by, maybe, reading the documentation that comes with the game.  If 
you state in the documentation, maybe on the download page and in 
the license?, that this is a beta, it still under development and 
is, therefore, not a final release, and that gamers are working with 
it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't read it but does agree 
to it by using the software, it's their problem.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take 
it to heart.

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion 
list gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an
experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going
to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental
cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up
to their personal standards.

The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my
intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what
I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the
release so people will be informed what problems are in the release
and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try
and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior
release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge
code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be.

Cheers!

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You

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Trouble

As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not 
just throne at you.

At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:

Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people
 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Bryan Peterson
Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not Bait A. 
LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just 
throne at you.

At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:

Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer 
 people

 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Trouble
The way my spell checker is acting up lucky got that much out. This 
last build of jaws is really going down hill. Haven't seen this much 
email on lists abut jaws problems sense vista came out.


At 09:27 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote:
Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not 
Bait A. LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not 
just throne at you.

At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:

Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think 
fewer  people

 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Bryan Peterson
All the more reason for me to be thankful that I don't use JAWS anymore. I'm 
just dreading the possibility of having to go back to using it on the ob if 
Window-Eyes can't be made to work with whatever software they use. Of course 
first I have to actually get a job, but that's another topic entirely.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


The way my spell checker is acting up lucky got that much out. This last 
build of jaws is really going down hill. Haven't seen this much email on 
lists abut jaws problems sense vista came out.


At 09:27 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote:
Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not Bait A. 
LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just 
throne at you.

At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:

Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think
fewer  people
 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Charles,

That may be true, and I personally agree with you. However, not
everyone shares that opinion or has the same expectations. Beta 18 was
a fairly stable release, had decent audio, full joystick/mouse
support, analog jumping, and so forth so the public was expecting
something like that for beta 19. When they discovered some setbacks,
degration of features, based on a different version of the engine it
wasn't at at all what they had come to expect based on prior history
of the project. What Philip said is true. Some warning or note that
this was experimental code with degrated features might have prepared
the public for what was to be expected.

On 6/14/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 I still contend that a beta is just that.  A trial version that is still
 under development.  Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe,
 reading the documentation that comes with the game.  If you state in the
 documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is
 a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release,
 and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't
 read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem.

 ---
 Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
 heart.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Trouble,

Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the
people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I
might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public
betas definitely aren't working out.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
 What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
 Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
 That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not
 just throne at you.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Trouble,

That's something as a game developer I'm not sure how to handle. It is
one thing to spend months of writing documentation only to have some
user come on the list and ask hundreds of questions that can easily be
answered by reading the manual.

The mainstream games do have a bit of a solution for this problem by
having training levels that talk you through the basics like walk
forward, stop, now hold down alt+forward to jump forward, etc. That
seems to work out fairly well for the mainstream  games because it is
more interactive than a manual. I wonder if perhaps that might be the
way audio games should go as well.

Either way there are things such as known problems, changes, or just
side notes that have to be written down. If the end users don't read
it it is their problem. They just make it our problem to because we
have to repete ourselves time and again because they don't have enough
brains to read the readme file with the software.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the
 questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for
 the program.
 How many do you actually know that read them?
 I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs.
 Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread shaun everiss

well I am always looking for a test team.
With the demise of the treasure hunt game and apart from my small uni 
work I am officially out of any real online testing of whatever it is.

I have been idol for at least 4 years or so.
The last game I tested was a small spoonbil job.
At 01:16 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote:

As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not 
just throne at you.

At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:

Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people
 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread shaun everiss
well businesses here still think jaws is what everysone should use 
though thankfully nvda seems to be getting loads of attention.

At 02:00 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote:
All the more reason for me to be thankful that I don't use JAWS 
anymore. I'm just dreading the possibility of having to go back to 
using it on the ob if Window-Eyes can't be made to work with 
whatever software they use. Of course first I have to actually get a 
job, but that's another topic entirely.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


The way my spell checker is acting up lucky got that much out. This 
last build of jaws is really going down hill. Haven't seen this 
much email on lists abut jaws problems sense vista came out.


At 09:27 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote:
Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not 
Bait A. LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and 
not just throne at you.

At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:

Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think
fewer  people
 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread shaun everiss

well I will always do perminant testing for you if you wish.
I used to have a perminant position with xsight but that died.
So to have something like that again especially with you would really rock.
Though I have to warn you I won't lie about anything, if its a piece 
of crap and I really hate it you will most likely hear about it.
I don't sugarcoat for any reason what so ever unless the reason is 
good enough and within reason.

At 02:19 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote:

Hi Trouble,

Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the
people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I
might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public
betas definitely aren't working out.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
 What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
 Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
 That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not
 just throne at you.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread shaun everiss
well tom if I may speak my mind, a lot of mainstreams are going into 
that as well as a manual.

I alert your attention to the  halflife series of games.
You are trained, and go through quite a few levels.
walking, jumping, junping trap-ps, climbing running, run-jumping.
Etc including what will happen when you fall into a trap what you 
want to avoid, etc.
Ofcause, that may cost you a bit extra if you have to get someone to 
record the training levels, you could do that with sapi but the 
mainstreams always had in the case of halflife a voice saying things 
like good, or whatever progress updates, and a main voice female in 
this case telling you what to do.

You would have to repeat things to if the player needed it again.
In the long term this will rock.
But in the short term it will probably cost you a few extra bucks 
depending on the source you grab things from, and how fancy, along 
with the initial coding of stuff.

So there are advantages about this and dissadvantages about it.
Starting will be quite sucky, and hard and crappy but after that it 
should rock.

Not to mention that will be another sound loaded in memmory.
Though you probably could minimise that by only loading the level 
sounds for each level or in fact each room or area to keep that down 
but then I am no programmer it could take ages to do this and that.

You could always do the trainer afterwards if you don't want to code that now.
You could even if you wished as an experiment try to train the new 
panning system abbrupt and crappy that it is.
One of the major issues is I have to stop with this panning to pick 
up an object and I like running and getting, though I realise thats 
wishfull thinking if i was in the real world.

I'd have to stop to scoop something.
At 02:29 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote:

Hi Trouble,

That's something as a game developer I'm not sure how to handle. It is
one thing to spend months of writing documentation only to have some
user come on the list and ask hundreds of questions that can easily be
answered by reading the manual.

The mainstream games do have a bit of a solution for this problem by
having training levels that talk you through the basics like walk
forward, stop, now hold down alt+forward to jump forward, etc. That
seems to work out fairly well for the mainstream  games because it is
more interactive than a manual. I wonder if perhaps that might be the
way audio games should go as well.

Either way there are things such as known problems, changes, or just
side notes that have to be written down. If the end users don't read
it it is their problem. They just make it our problem to because we
have to repete ourselves time and again because they don't have enough
brains to read the readme file with the software.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the
 questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for
 the program.
 How many do you actually know that read them?
 I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs.
 Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Trouble
They did that with Terraformers and you also have training levels in 
Microsoft Flight sim x.


At 10:29 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote:

Hi Trouble,

That's something as a game developer I'm not sure how to handle. It is
one thing to spend months of writing documentation only to have some
user come on the list and ask hundreds of questions that can easily be
answered by reading the manual.

The mainstream games do have a bit of a solution for this problem by
having training levels that talk you through the basics like walk
forward, stop, now hold down alt+forward to jump forward, etc. That
seems to work out fairly well for the mainstream  games because it is
more interactive than a manual. I wonder if perhaps that might be the
way audio games should go as well.

Either way there are things such as known problems, changes, or just
side notes that have to be written down. If the end users don't read
it it is their problem. They just make it our problem to because we
have to repete ourselves time and again because they don't have enough
brains to read the readme file with the software.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the
 questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for
 the program.
 How many do you actually know that read them?
 I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs.
 Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Trouble

I hear you there at least see all the email. hahahahah

At 10:19 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote:

Hi Trouble,

Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the
people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I
might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public
betas definitely aren't working out.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
 What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
 Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
 That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not
 just throne at you.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Trouble
Well if need some more input. i have at hand xp pro sp3, vista prem 
home sp2, win7 and mac book pro.

I test things on them a lot just to see them crash and find out why.

At 10:19 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote:

Hi Trouble,

Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the
people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I
might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public
betas definitely aren't working out.

On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage.
 What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team.
 Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's.
 That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not
 just throne at you.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread Charles Rivard
Although I have been gotten after for telling people to read the 
documentation because the answer is in there, I haven't been thrown off any 
lists for doing so, and I'll stand by what I say about the user's manuals. 
They're there for a purpose, and we should be using them.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions 
you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program.

How many do you actually know that read them?
I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs.
Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community.

At 08:51 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:
I still contend that a beta is just that.  A trial version that is still 
under development.  Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, 
reading the documentation that comes with the game.  If you state in the 
documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this 
is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final 
release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the 
gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's 
their problem.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward 
thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an
experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going
to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental
cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up
to their personal standards.

The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my
intentions, long term goals or plans, and people

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-15 Thread hayden presley
Hi,
I seem to get snapped at all the time when I tell people to do that. There
was some kind of TDV or MOTA related topic earlier this year tht Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Rivard
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:15 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

Although I have been gotten after for telling people to read the 
documentation because the answer is in there, I haven't been thrown off any 
lists for doing so, and I'll stand by what I say about the user's manuals. 
They're there for a purpose, and we should be using them.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


 Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions 
 you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program.
 How many do you actually know that read them?
 I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs.
 Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community.

 At 08:51 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote:
I still contend that a beta is just that.  A trial version that is still 
under development.  Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, 
reading the documentation that comes with the game.  If you state in the 
documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this 
is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final 
release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the 
gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's 
their problem.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward 
thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Trouble
That is just it a rep. Don't think that will go far in the blind 
community. Because, they don't care, Oh, they say they do and at many 
time actually do. However, when it comes to games. Your dealing with 
very 
http://www.google.com/hws//hws/search?br=client=dell-usukchannel=us-pspsafe=highadsafe=highhl=enie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=viciousvicious 
people that strikeout at will.
Just look at what was done when they found out Tom had to stop and 
rewrite, because someone nailed him for a copy right.
Yes, I think someone turned him in, because hardly anyone sighted 
bothers with this list. Also I do know blind people that will go that 
mile just to see something destroyed. I went to the site Tom gave 
that hit him. It was there and a joke if you ask, but still the same 
had a claim to the game. Surprising!
Tom had his rep with previous games that were already out. So if 
anyone doubts, there lose.


At 08:33 PM 6/13/2011, you wrote:
The reputation it should give him is one of taking the time and 
continually making the effort to get it right.  The key word here is should.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take 
it to heart.

- Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support




Hi Trouble,
While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole 
lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released 
until Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I 
can't say what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards,

Hayden

--
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

If you want to support other platforms with your games that is 
your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the 
work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is 
going to be time delays and drag outs with problems.
I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for 
and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time 
periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a 
releasable demo is at hand.
Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable 
demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs 
are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to 
Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or 
very little to release in updates or next version. You have to 
keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs 
witch delays the final release that much more.




At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you 
use  ubuntu

 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
consideration.
 I

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Mike Reiser
I don't have a problem with the current sound system, I would say if you 
needed to convert it to something else later, but I understand that 
would create a lot of work.  Thanks,


Mike

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Trouble and all,

Well, I think alot of it comes down to a lack of patients and a
complete lack of understanding where developers and development is
concerned. Many of the people quick to point fingers, quick to make
judgments, etc have no personal experience with any kind of long term
project. Which programming games is a long term project and commitment
that requires time, skill, and experience to bring to completion.
Therefore they have unrealistic expectations  about how and when the
project should be completed, and even jump to the wrong conclusion
when things aren't going the way the expect them too.

For instance, when I decided to compile beta 19 using the
cross-platform Genesis engine I knew joystick support and mouse
support wasn't fully operational yet so I removed them from the
settings menu, and I also knew that the audio panning was way off. I
only intended these to be temporary issues, problems, and my purpose
of testing beta 19 was to find out if the basic engine was sound,
would run on a number of Linux and Windows PCs, and after I found that
out I'd go back in and fix the joystick support, mouse support, and
see what if anything I could do about the audio later.   My soul
purpose was to find out if the basic engine ran ok on a number of
Windows PCs and Linux PCs.

However, the community at large didn't understand what I was doing.
Right off I got a lot of e-mails on and off list saying that the beta
sucked. There was no joystick support, no mouse support, and the
panning was terrible. If creating cross-platform games was going to be
like this one they weren't going to buy the game etc. In other words
they expected this release to be as good as or better than beta 18 and
didn't  understand I was going to address those issues in future
betas. For the moment all I wanted to know from them is how well did
the game work besides the audio and missing game controller support.
Apparently it must have worked ok, because the only complaints I got
were the obvious ones I knew about.


Basically, my point in saying this is that if these people were more
use to the way developers really worked, perhaps  test software on a
regular basis, they wouldn't be as judgmental. I've tested Linux open
source applications where the developer says, try this and let me
know how it works, and sometimes it fixes something  and sometimes it
breaks something in the process, and the developer has to find out why
it broke and fix it.


For instance, we have a similar issue right now on Linux with the new
Gnome 3.0 desktop. When the Gnome developers moved from the 2.x branch
to the 3.0 branch they made a lot of changes that ended up breaking
some accessibility with Orca and AT-SPI in the process. The only way
the Gnome developers are going to be able to resolve it is by having
Orca users test it, find out what broke, report those bugs, and the
developers will address and fix all of those issues in the Gnome 3.2
version. Sometimes its a case of take two steps foward and one step
back. I.E. development by trial and error.

Cheers!




On 6/14/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 That is just it a rep. Don't think that will go far in the blind
 community. Because, they don't care, Oh, they say they do and at many
 time actually do. However, when it comes to games. Your dealing with
 very
 http://www.google.com/hws//hws/search?br=client=dell-usukchannel=us-pspsafe=highadsafe=highhl=enie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=viciousvicious
 people that strikeout at will.
 Just look at what was done when they found out Tom had to stop and
 rewrite, because someone nailed him for a copy right.
 Yes, I think someone turned him in, because hardly anyone sighted
 bothers with this list. Also I do know blind people that will go that
 mile just to see something destroyed. I went to the site Tom gave
 that hit him. It was there and a joke if you ask, but still the same
 had a claim to the game. Surprising!
 Tom had his rep with previous games that were already out. So if
 anyone doubts, there lose.

---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Thomas,

I wanted to offer my two cents here, in case the feedback may be useful to 
you in some way. I think the reaction you got was very much to be expected 
since, at least to me, your intentions were not too clear. All that people 
really knew was that there was a new cross platform beta, and that a bunch 
of features were removed or degraded in performance. I think if you had 
posted the message that you just sent now, along with the actual beta 
announcement, things would have been a lot clearer. You could even have 
called it an experimental alpha, which would have stressed the fact that 
this was not production code but rather a testing ground even more strongly. 
This is also why I don't release public betas myself, because I don't want 
to communicate with the community at large while I am doing tests on 
bleeding edge code that may or may not perform as people expect. With a 
smaller group of testers you can make things a lot more obvious, what you 
want them to test and what issues are known etc. With a fully fledged 
community tested project as Mota has very nearly become, you'll always run 
into issues like this. Especially since the cross platform endeavour, while 
naturally important to you personally, is not something that a lot of purely 
Windows folks will have use for and thus will not really take into 
consideration when judging your software.


This, at any rate, is my feeling for games. BGT was totally different since 
it was a lot more modular, rather than one specific story so to speak. There 
the public testing really worked wonders, but I would not do the same for a 
game.


This is not to say that community testing of games is always bad. Far from 
it. With Entombed, for instance, I think it worked rather well. But when a 
developer decides to do it they naturally have to consider if it is worth 
the extra work that it takes to keep everyone up to speed with what needs to 
be tested in this particular release, what known problems there are, etc 
etc.


As always, these are just my own personal views. I'm interested to hear your 
thoughts.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi Trouble and all,

Well, I think alot of it comes down to a lack of patients and a
complete lack of understanding where developers and development is
concerned. Many of the people quick to point fingers, quick to make
judgments, etc have no personal experience with any kind of long term
project. Which programming games is a long term project and commitment
that requires time, skill, and experience to bring to completion.
Therefore they have unrealistic expectations  about how and when the
project should be completed, and even jump to the wrong conclusion
when things aren't going the way the expect them too.

For instance, when I decided to compile beta 19 using the
cross-platform Genesis engine I knew joystick support and mouse
support wasn't fully operational yet so I removed them from the
settings menu, and I also knew that the audio panning was way off. I
only intended these to be temporary issues, problems, and my purpose
of testing beta 19 was to find out if the basic engine was sound,
would run on a number of Linux and Windows PCs, and after I found that
out I'd go back in and fix the joystick support, mouse support, and
see what if anything I could do about the audio later.   My soul
purpose was to find out if the basic engine ran ok on a number of
Windows PCs and Linux PCs.

However, the community at large didn't understand what I was doing.
Right off I got a lot of e-mails on and off list saying that the beta
sucked. There was no joystick support, no mouse support, and the
panning was terrible. If creating cross-platform games was going to be
like this one they weren't going to buy the game etc. In other words
they expected this release to be as good as or better than beta 18 and
didn't  understand I was going to address those issues in future
betas. For the moment all I wanted to know from them is how well did
the game work besides the audio and missing game controller support.
Apparently it must have worked ok, because the only complaints I got
were the obvious ones I knew about.


Basically, my point in saying this is that if these people were more
use to the way developers really worked, perhaps  test software on a
regular basis, they wouldn't be as judgmental. I've tested Linux open
source applications where the developer says, try this and let me
know how it works, and sometimes it fixes something  and sometimes it
breaks something in the process, and the developer has to find out why
it broke and fix it.


For instance, we have a similar issue right now on Linux with the new
Gnome 3.0 desktop. When the Gnome developers moved from the 2.x branch
to the 3.0 branch they made a lot of changes

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Charles Rivard
Developing games takes logic and planning.  Playing the games does not. 
I've never figured out why people think that a beta of a game is the 
finished product.  If something is wrong with a beta, the same problem will 
exist in the marketed game.  It just doesn't make any sense.


---
Shepherds are the best beasts!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Trouble and all,

Well, I think alot of it comes down to a lack of patients and a
complete lack of understanding where developers and development is
concerned. Many of the people quick to point fingers, quick to make
judgments, etc have no personal experience with any kind of long term
project. Which programming games is a long term project and commitment
that requires time, skill, and experience to bring to completion.
Therefore they have unrealistic expectations  about how and when the
project should be completed, and even jump to the wrong conclusion
when things aren't going the way the expect them too.

For instance, when I decided to compile beta 19 using the
cross-platform Genesis engine I knew joystick support and mouse
support wasn't fully operational yet so I removed them from the
settings menu, and I also knew that the audio panning was way off. I
only intended these to be temporary issues, problems, and my purpose
of testing beta 19 was to find out if the basic engine was sound,
would run on a number of Linux and Windows PCs, and after I found that
out I'd go back in and fix the joystick support, mouse support, and
see what if anything I could do about the audio later.   My soul
purpose was to find out if the basic engine ran ok on a number of
Windows PCs and Linux PCs.

However, the community at large didn't understand what I was doing.
Right off I got a lot of e-mails on and off list saying that the beta
sucked. There was no joystick support, no mouse support, and the
panning was terrible. If creating cross-platform games was going to be
like this one they weren't going to buy the game etc. In other words
they expected this release to be as good as or better than beta 18 and
didn't  understand I was going to address those issues in future
betas. For the moment all I wanted to know from them is how well did
the game work besides the audio and missing game controller support.
Apparently it must have worked ok, because the only complaints I got
were the obvious ones I knew about.


Basically, my point in saying this is that if these people were more
use to the way developers really worked, perhaps  test software on a
regular basis, they wouldn't be as judgmental. I've tested Linux open
source applications where the developer says, try this and let me
know how it works, and sometimes it fixes something  and sometimes it
breaks something in the process, and the developer has to find out why
it broke and fix it.


For instance, we have a similar issue right now on Linux with the new
Gnome 3.0 desktop. When the Gnome developers moved from the 2.x branch
to the 3.0 branch they made a lot of changes that ended up breaking
some accessibility with Orca and AT-SPI in the process. The only way
the Gnome developers are going to be able to resolve it is by having
Orca users test it, find out what broke, report those bugs, and the
developers will address and fix all of those issues in the Gnome 3.2
version. Sometimes its a case of take two steps foward and one step
back. I.E. development by trial and error.

Cheers!




On 6/14/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:

That is just it a rep. Don't think that will go far in the blind
community. Because, they don't care, Oh, they say they do and at many
time actually do. However, when it comes to games. Your dealing with
very
http://www.google.com/hws//hws/search?br=client=dell-usukchannel=us-pspsafe=highadsafe=highhl=enie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=viciousvicious
people that strikeout at will.
Just look at what was done when they found out Tom had to stop and
rewrite, because someone nailed him for a copy right.
Yes, I think someone turned him in, because hardly anyone sighted
bothers with this list. Also I do know blind people that will go that
mile just to see something destroyed. I went to the site Tom gave
that hit him. It was there and a joke if you ask, but still the same
had a claim to the game. Surprising!
Tom had his rep with previous games that were already out. So if
anyone doubts, there lose.


---
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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an
experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going
to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental
cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up
to their personal standards.

The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my
intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what
I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the
release so people will be informed what problems are in the release
and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try
and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior
release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge
code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Charles,

I think the answer lies in the fact most people are only concerned
with playing the game rather than testing it. With beta 19 I released
a version based on  bleeding edge  experimental code and that didn't
go over too well as it wasn't one of my more polished production
releases like beta 18. So when I was looking for the  community to
actually do some testing what I got were complaints dealing with the
fact they couldn't play it because the  audio was crappy, no joystick
support, mouse support, etc when I wasn't expecting them to  treat it
as a production release but a test release only. My attempts backfired
because it wasn't really a playable demo based on stable production
code. So when it turned out not to be a stable polished demo they
could play without problems they  complained loudly.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Developing games takes logic and planning.  Playing the games does not.
 I've never figured out why people think that a beta of a game is the
 finished product.  If something is wrong with a beta, the same problem will
 exist in the marketed game.  It just doesn't make any sense.

 ---
 Shepherds are the best beasts!

---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Thomas,

I agree with all of your points 100 %. Get the Windows version out the door, 
make some actual cash, and spend the money making a great cross platform 
engine. Best of luck!


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an
experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going
to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental
cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up
to their personal standards.

The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my
intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what
I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the
release so people will be informed what problems are in the release
and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try
and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior
release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge
code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be.

Cheers! 



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Phil Vlasak

Hi Thomas,
I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people 
would have complained.

Smiles,
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Charles,

I think the answer lies in the fact most people are only concerned
with playing the game rather than testing it. With beta 19 I released
a version based on  bleeding edge  experimental code and that didn't
go over too well as it wasn't one of my more polished production
releases like beta 18. So when I was looking for the  community to
actually do some testing what I got were complaints dealing with the
fact they couldn't play it because the  audio was crappy, no joystick
support, mouse support, etc when I wasn't expecting them to  treat it
as a production release but a test release only. My attempts backfired
because it wasn't really a playable demo based on stable production
code. So when it turned out not to be a stable polished demo they
could play without problems they  complained loudly.

Cheers!



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Phil,

I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18,
wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release
and more of an  experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel
inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this
release is not to be confused with the current production releases.

Cheers!



On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I suspect the main problem is the number 19.
 If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people
 would have complained.
 Smiles,
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-14 Thread Charles Rivard
I still contend that a beta is just that.  A trial version that is still 
under development.  Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, 
reading the documentation that comes with the game.  If you state in the 
documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is 
a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release, 
and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't 
read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Philip,

Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19
was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be
considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full
production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were
beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the
cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7  which I
should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say
why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the
worst and   thought that I was  intending on taking it out of the
final release when it was only intended for that specific release or
build only.

The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning,
what we have is two different engines more or less in production at
the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine
which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a
couple of years, and is  fairly stable. Then, we've got the
cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet
production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable
to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually
converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot
of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example,
before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is
in evidence with beta 19.

Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm
still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it
uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for
Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs
and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together
something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my
past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application
using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to
have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I
have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times
I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux
such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java
using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty
self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm
doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much
experimental  code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine
is concerned.

I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the
Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game
sold using that technology,  and put off finishing the cross-platform
engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an
experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going
to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental
cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up
to their personal standards.

The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my
intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what
I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the
release so people will be informed what problems are in the release
and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try
and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior
release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge
code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

If you are talking about the vanishing platforms that's the point.
They are meant to be challenging, difficult, and I think once I
recompile beta 20 against the Windows version of the G3D engine
they'll be fairly trick as they were in beta 18. I think traps like
that will have great replay value as there is no certainty there you
will make it through on your first run.

Cheers!


On 6/12/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I
 don't like them that much.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Trouble
If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your 
business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of 
the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be 
time delays and drag outs with problems.
I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and 
that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods 
good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable 
demo is at hand.
Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos 
are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed 
you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding 
things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release 
in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for 
just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release 
that much more.




At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu
 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into 
consideration.

 I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
 windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms,
 since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I 
don't get why

 worry about a handful of people...

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Trouble
Well I see silent partner? Think not knowing Tom. When you get a game 
company. Then you can make those choices.


At 04:38 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:
The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use 
ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community 
is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows 
into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux 
version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a 
mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community 
are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people...

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Charles,

Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick
support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine,
and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of
forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely
cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that
will allow me to build  high quality games  for my OS, Linux, and
still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well.

That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to
compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it.
I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no
longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate.



__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5266 (20100709) __


The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Hayden Presley


Hi Trouble,
While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole lot more 
griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until Christmas. Even 
if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say what kind of reputation 
that would give him.Best Regards,

Hayden

--
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your 
business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the 
game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays 
and drag outs with problems.
I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that 
is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if 
not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand.
Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are 
for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you 
release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to 
each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or 
next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It 
also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more.




At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use 
 ubuntu

 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
consideration.
 I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
 windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other 
 platforms,

 since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I
don't get why
 worry about a handful of people...

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You can

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Hayden Presley

Hi Shaun,
Funny you don't like that onethat's probably my favorite little obstacle 
in the game.

Best Regards,
Hayden

--
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:35 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi Shaun,

If you are talking about the vanishing platforms that's the point.
They are meant to be challenging, difficult, and I think once I
recompile beta 20 against the Windows version of the G3D engine
they'll be fairly trick as they were in beta 18. I think traps like
that will have great replay value as there is no certainty there you
will make it through on your first run.

Cheers!


On 6/12/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:

well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I
don't like them that much.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Trouble
The only reason I picked those 2 times of year are, it is when most 
are out of any type of school and the best times to hit parents for 
buying the game.
The ones doing most of the griping are kids not adults and if they 
are adults? Then act like it instead of something I want to slap the 
shit out of!

At 09:06 AM 6/13/2011, you wrote:


Hi Trouble,
While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole 
lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until 
Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say 
what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards,

Hayden

--
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your 
business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of 
the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be 
time delays and drag outs with problems.
I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for 
and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time 
periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a 
releasable demo is at hand.
Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable 
demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs 
are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to 
Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or 
very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep 
some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch 
delays the final release that much more.




At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you 
use  ubuntu

 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
consideration.
 I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
 windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the 
other  platforms,

 since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I
don't get why
 worry about a handful of people...

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Trouble,

Right. That was esentially my point. I'm the one doing the work so
should have the final say on weather the game is or is not
cross-platform, what APIs, etc I use etc. However, getting a feel for
what the community thinks will help sell the game when it is finally
finished. I'm all for making changes if I see the change is a valid or
necessary one. Which is clearly the case here.

What I am probably going to do for MOTA beta 20 is simply recompile
the game against the Windows/DirectX version of the engine which
should satisfy everyone for Windows as they will have DirectSound,
analog jumping, joystick support, mouse support, etc and hopefully
they'll be satisfied with that. I'm willing to take the extra time to
do that as I know it will likely increase sales as the core of the
game will be based on Windows specific APIs proven to work. At the
same time though I can branch out and perhaps work on a Linux specific
engine using Linux specific APIs that so I can create versions of the
game I can play and other Linux users like myself. That's a fair
compromise if a bit more time and work.

Cheers!



On 6/13/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your
 business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of
 the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be
 time delays and drag outs with problems.
 I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and
 that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods
 good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable
 demo is at hand.
 Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos
 are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed
 you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding
 things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release
 in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for
 just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release
 that much more.



 At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:
Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
  The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu
  yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
  outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
 consideration.
  I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
  windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other
  platforms,
  since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I
 don't get why
  worry about a handful of people...

---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Trouble
Just remember that it might sound fair. but, when it comes to doing 
it your right back to hard work and time.
You do have a few things going for you. There is a playable demo and 
you do keep sending out updates.


At 10:22 AM 6/13/2011, you wrote:

Hi Trouble,

Right. That was esentially my point. I'm the one doing the work so
should have the final say on weather the game is or is not
cross-platform, what APIs, etc I use etc. However, getting a feel for
what the community thinks will help sell the game when it is finally
finished. I'm all for making changes if I see the change is a valid or
necessary one. Which is clearly the case here.

What I am probably going to do for MOTA beta 20 is simply recompile
the game against the Windows/DirectX version of the engine which
should satisfy everyone for Windows as they will have DirectSound,
analog jumping, joystick support, mouse support, etc and hopefully
they'll be satisfied with that. I'm willing to take the extra time to
do that as I know it will likely increase sales as the core of the
game will be based on Windows specific APIs proven to work. At the
same time though I can branch out and perhaps work on a Linux specific
engine using Linux specific APIs that so I can create versions of the
game I can play and other Linux users like myself. That's a fair
compromise if a bit more time and work.

Cheers!



On 6/13/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your
 business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of
 the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be
 time delays and drag outs with problems.
 I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and
 that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods
 good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable
 demo is at hand.
 Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos
 are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed
 you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding
 things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release
 in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for
 just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release
 that much more.



 At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:
Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
  The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu
  yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
  outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
 consideration.
  I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
  windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other
  platforms,
  since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I
 don't get why
  worry about a handful of people...

---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Trouble,

Very true. However, probably the best way to handle this is A, release
a version for Windows, B, settle up the various preorders with the
early customers of the game, and C, then spend time working on a
cross-platform version. That way I am working on the cross-platform
port on my free time, and not dragging the release up that people paid
for on research, experimentation, testing, and development. I'm pretty
sure there is a sutable cross-platform solution here, but I just don't
have the time to find it yet.

For instance, SDL Mixer has decent panning, and that would resolve the
complaints people have regarding the way sounds are panned.
Unfortunately, on the down side it doesn't offer pitch changes, as
well as a number of DSP effects like a low pass filter, etc. So while
it resolves one problem it introduces others in the process.


Another solution worth considering, and I actually looked at one time,
is building the Genesis Engine in Java. Since the Java JDK is
completely cross-platform creating games that run on Mac, Linux, and
Windows definitely isn't a big deal. Java developers do it all the
time. The primary reason I didn't do that a year or two ago is the
builtin Java Sound API supports panning, pitch changes, master volume,
etc but doesn't have 3d audio. For that I'd have to use the Joal
wrapper for OpenAL so decided against it. In hindsight that might have
been the better way to go since the test apps I wrote in Java panned
just as well as DirectX, and this issue of trying to find a C++library
that sounds like DirectSound could have been avoided from the start,
and saved myself a lot of work in the bargon as well.

My point being is that whatever that solution is I need to first get
MOTA 1.0 out the door, settle my accounts, and then I can  look at all
my options and maybe find something I can settle on that does exactly
what I want/need it to do.

Cheers!





On 6/13/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
 Just remember that it might sound fair. but, when it comes to doing
 it your right back to hard work and time.
 You do have a few things going for you. There is a playable demo and
 you do keep sending out updates.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread Charles Rivard
The reputation it should give him is one of taking the time and continually 
making the effort to get it right.  The key word here is should.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support




Hi Trouble,
While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole lot more 
griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until Christmas. 
Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say what kind of 
reputation that would give him.Best Regards,

Hayden

--
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your 
business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the 
game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time 
delays and drag outs with problems.
I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and 
that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good 
and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at 
hand.
Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are 
for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you 
release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things 
to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates 
or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. 
It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more.




At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use 
 ubuntu

 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
consideration.
 I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
 windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other 
 platforms,

 since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I
don't get why
 worry about a handful of people...

---
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list,

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread shaun everiss

hmmm maybe its because I have not got it yet.
I like the spikes myself, you really have to concerntrate and if you 
nit them, well.

At 01:14 a.m. 14/06/2011, you wrote:

Hi Shaun,
Funny you don't like that onethat's probably my favorite little 
obstacle in the game.

Best Regards,
Hayden

--
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:35 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi Shaun,

If you are talking about the vanishing platforms that's the point.
They are meant to be challenging, difficult, and I think once I
recompile beta 20 against the Windows version of the G3D engine
they'll be fairly trick as they were in beta 18. I think traps like
that will have great replay value as there is no certainty there you
will make it through on your first run.

Cheers!


On 6/12/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:

well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I
don't like them that much.


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-13 Thread shaun everiss
well one of the things we learned is to not set release dates for 
anything at all.
In fact i have just been reading the greymatterproductions blog and 
there are loads of examples why release dates unless you are sure you 
can get there are not a good idea.

At 12:33 p.m. 14/06/2011, you wrote:
The reputation it should give him is one of taking the time and 
continually making the effort to get it right.  The key word here is should.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take 
it to heart.

- Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support




Hi Trouble,
While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole 
lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released 
until Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I 
can't say what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards,

Hayden

--
From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

If you want to support other platforms with your games that is 
your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the 
work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is 
going to be time delays and drag outs with problems.
I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for 
and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time 
periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a 
releasable demo is at hand.
Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable 
demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs 
are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to 
Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or 
very little to release in updates or next version. You have to 
keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs 
witch delays the final release that much more.




At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you 
use  ubuntu

 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into
consideration.
 I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
 windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the 
other  platforms,

 since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I
don't get why
 worry about a handful of people...

---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any

Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Thomas,

Have a look at http://www.allegro.cc/. In Allegro 5, they have completely 
rewritten the sound API and it is now extremely versatile, powerful and, of 
course, cross platform. It has pan, volume, pitch etc but unfortunately no 
3d. It allows you to customize things a great deal, however, such as adding 
your own format reader/writer interfaces.
They have precompiled static and dynamic import libraries, but I ended up 
building from source. I compiled it on Windows with a lot of the core 
stripped out such as Direct 3d and OpenGl, which brought the size and list 
of dependencies down considerably. This is what I will use if I do end up 
making a cross platform version of BGT. Allegro also has support for mice, 
joysticks, and soon also touch input which is useful for the IPhone port 
that they're doing.


Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:38 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi all,

As the subject states I'm looking for  some feedback regarding the
audio support in Mysteries of the Ancients beta 19 as this seems to be
a point of contention for a number of Windows users. I know that many
of you are part and partial to Microsoft DirectSound, and some of you
have out right called the new FMOD Ex support aweful, crap, etc. At
this point I'm not sure how to resolve this issue for yu  guys as I am
still pretty knew to FMOD and I'm trying to convert the way FMOD Ex
pans audio to something that emulates or sounds like DirectSound. In
that I have not been too successful to date. However, that does not
mean we are out of options. Just that the solutions here  are not that
apealing right now.

The first and simplest solution is to  accept the way things are. As
for me personally the  way FMOD pans sounds isn't a big deal. It
doesn't bother me, and sounds  good enough. However, I realize from
the on and off list messages on this topic many of you don't like it
at all.

The alternative solution would be to split the Genesis engine into two
different engines. One built specifically for Windows users and one
specifically built for Linux users. This has both  pros and cons that
need to be weighed carefully.

The up side of building two specific engines for each platform is that
I could make use of native APIs for each platform. On Windows I could
use DirectInput, DirectSound, the Win32 API, MS Sapi, etc where on the
linux side it would use LibSDL, OpenAL-Soft, Speech-Dispatcher, and so
on. That sounds good in theory, but is nothing short of a nightmare to
manage.

The down side is in many of the cases comparing APIs is like comparing
apples and oranges. I'll have to write various wrappers to convert
things back and forth between APIs so the game code will compile on
either engine without a great deal of modification on my part. That
will take considerable time to  add and will delay the release of
games like MOTA even further  even more than it already is. Which is
not something I look forward to doing at this point in the development
process.

The final option or solution I can see here is not necessarily to make
two different game engines, but take some time away from MOTA,
Raceway, etc to write a custom sound API for the G3D engine. It might
wrap DirectSound or XAudio2 on the Windows side, and wrap OpenAL on
the Linux side. This seems to me to be the right solution, but would
take a good couple months or more to develope as I'd have to wrap two
different sound APIs and then expose them to the G3D engine through a
single universl API the way Streemway wraps DirectSound and XAudio2
for the BGT engine.

In either case it is important that I get this issue sorted out pretty
soon as licensing FMOD Ex will take about a third of my expected
income from sales, and I don't want to really do that if end users are
really that  unhappy with it that I might loose sales or it will
detract from the games I write  using the Genesis 3D engine. I'm not
sure what to do here as FMOD Ex has a good reputation, has a lot of
advanced features that blows DirectX away, but I'm unable to figure
out how to get it to pan the way DirectSound does which is why people
are complaining about it. If there is a cheaper solution we can all
agree upon then I'm willing to give it a try.

Thanks.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread lirin
Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a 
few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly 
interesting, you haven't nothing.



Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little 
offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your 
products it is more and more fun.



Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc

You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and 
nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have 
really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming 
language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still.


Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case.
Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in 
future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the 
same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not.


Anyway, good luck with developing

PS.

It's final fantasy really, in real life lol


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Bryan Peterson
I think that was more than a little uncalled for. And I don't see what Final 
Fantasy has to do with this.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: lirin seal11...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few 
years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you 
haven't nothing.



Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, 
but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is 
more and more fun.



Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc

You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and 
nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have 
really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming 
language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still.


Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case.
Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, 
cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, 
sometimes more buggy, sometimes not.


Anyway, good luck with developing

PS.

It's final fantasy really, in real life lol


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Philip,

Thanks for the information. I'll definitely give Allegro a look
although I shutter at having to rewrite the input, audio, and
threading to fully support Allegro. Although, this might be the answer
I am looking for. Its too bad they don't have 3d audio as I've got all
the hardware for it, and MOTA 3D was designed with full 3d audio in
mind. If I switch I'll have to settle for simple 2d stereo output, but
this might settle the current situation  where 2d panning is
necessary.

On 6/12/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 Have a look at http://www.allegro.cc/. In Allegro 5, they have completely
 rewritten the sound API and it is now extremely versatile, powerful and, of
 course, cross platform. It has pan, volume, pitch etc but unfortunately no
 3d. It allows you to customize things a great deal, however, such as adding
 your own format reader/writer interfaces.
 They have precompiled static and dynamic import libraries, but I ended up
 building from source. I compiled it on Windows with a lot of the core
 stripped out such as Direct 3d and OpenGl, which brought the size and list
 of dependencies down considerably. This is what I will use if I do end up
 making a cross platform version of BGT. Allegro also has support for mice,
 joysticks, and soon also touch input which is useful for the IPhone port
 that they're doing.

 Hope this helps.

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Charles Rivard
My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should go 
with what produces the most accurate sound.  To a lot of people, MOTA's 
nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor graphics. 
Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound.  If that 
cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to 
work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or comes 
very close to the sounds created with direct sound.  Poor graphics won't 
sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the 
blind gamer.  Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they 
have heard better.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:38 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi all,

As the subject states I'm looking for  some feedback regarding the
audio support in Mysteries of the Ancients beta 19 as this seems to be
a point of contention for a number of Windows users. I know that many
of you are part and partial to Microsoft DirectSound, and some of you
have out right called the new FMOD Ex support aweful, crap, etc. At
this point I'm not sure how to resolve this issue for yu  guys as I am
still pretty knew to FMOD and I'm trying to convert the way FMOD Ex
pans audio to something that emulates or sounds like DirectSound. In
that I have not been too successful to date. However, that does not
mean we are out of options. Just that the solutions here  are not that
apealing right now.

The first and simplest solution is to  accept the way things are. As
for me personally the  way FMOD pans sounds isn't a big deal. It
doesn't bother me, and sounds  good enough. However, I realize from
the on and off list messages on this topic many of you don't like it
at all.

The alternative solution would be to split the Genesis engine into two
different engines. One built specifically for Windows users and one
specifically built for Linux users. This has both  pros and cons that
need to be weighed carefully.

The up side of building two specific engines for each platform is that
I could make use of native APIs for each platform. On Windows I could
use DirectInput, DirectSound, the Win32 API, MS Sapi, etc where on the
linux side it would use LibSDL, OpenAL-Soft, Speech-Dispatcher, and so
on. That sounds good in theory, but is nothing short of a nightmare to
manage.

The down side is in many of the cases comparing APIs is like comparing
apples and oranges. I'll have to write various wrappers to convert
things back and forth between APIs so the game code will compile on
either engine without a great deal of modification on my part. That
will take considerable time to  add and will delay the release of
games like MOTA even further  even more than it already is. Which is
not something I look forward to doing at this point in the development
process.

The final option or solution I can see here is not necessarily to make
two different game engines, but take some time away from MOTA,
Raceway, etc to write a custom sound API for the G3D engine. It might
wrap DirectSound or XAudio2 on the Windows side, and wrap OpenAL on
the Linux side. This seems to me to be the right solution, but would
take a good couple months or more to develope as I'd have to wrap two
different sound APIs and then expose them to the G3D engine through a
single universl API the way Streemway wraps DirectSound and XAudio2
for the BGT engine.

In either case it is important that I get this issue sorted out pretty
soon as licensing FMOD Ex will take about a third of my expected
income from sales, and I don't want to really do that if end users are
really that  unhappy with it that I might loose sales or it will
detract from the games I write  using the Genesis 3D engine. I'm not
sure what to do here as FMOD Ex has a good reputation, has a lot of
advanced features that blows DirectX away, but I'm unable to figure
out how to get it to pan the way DirectSound does which is why people
are complaining about it. If there is a cheaper solution we can all
agree upon then I'm willing to give it a try.

Thanks.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Thomas Ward
 Hi Lirin,

You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but I don't consider the
fact I have written Star Trek Final Conflict, got screwed over
Montezuma's Revenge just about a month from final release, and writing
a cross-platform game engine exactly nothing. Yes it is true I have
released  several betas of Mysteries of the Ancients and that is only
because I am testing out various APIs before settling on one for all
of my  productions. That does not mean I have jumped from language to
language as you describe below. I've only switched languages once when
I decided to move from C# .Net to C++ to make a more open
cross-platform design. The way you talk I've done it 20 times which is
simply not true. So if you want to send me a negative comment like the
one below get your facts straight ok?

The facts are that Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is almost complete.
I'm in the process of adding additional levels, finalizing some game
mechanics, and working on a licensing system. However, the entire
point of this thread was to figure out what would be the best way to
handle audio with the G3D engine since it is A, cross-platform, and B,
because if not for this issue I could finish up MOTA and have it out
before the end of summer.

As for me not focussing on one project I think you are missing one
vital piece of information how I work. I may come on list and discuss
a  wrestling game or whatever, I'll take down notes, but it does not
necessarily mean I run off to my PC and start coding the thing. I am
merely writing down thoughts, ideas, and useful information for that
potential project. At the time being I only have two projects in
active development and that is MOTA and Raceway. With the majority of
my free time being spent specifically on MOTA so like I said get your
facts straight before running your mouth.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, lirin seal11...@gmail.com wrote:
 Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a
 few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly
 interesting, you haven't nothing.


 Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little
 offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your
 products it is more and more fun.


 Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc

 You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and
 nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have
 really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming
 language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still.

 Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case.
 Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in
 future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the
 same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not.

 Anyway, good luck with developing

 PS.

 It's final fantasy really, in real life lol


 ---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Charles,

Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick
support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine,
and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of
forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely
cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that
will allow me to build  high quality games  for my OS, Linux, and
still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well.

That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to
compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it.
 I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no
longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should go
 with what produces the most accurate sound.  To a lot of people, MOTA's
 nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor graphics.
 Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound.  If that
 cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to
 work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or comes
 very close to the sounds created with direct sound.  Poor graphics won't
 sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the
 blind gamer.  Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they
 have heard better.

 ---
 Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to
 heart.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Michael Gauler

Hi Tom,
I know that the current Windows sound library (Fmod EX), or what it is 
called was not very usable on the playyer's side in the latest public Beta.
We already had such problems  in earlier beta versions, i think Beta 12, 13 
or 14 or all of them.
There panning in combination with walking caused problems when it came to 
dealing with fire pids. Panning did not work then and when you were near a 
fire pit and wanted to make one step to the jumping point and you made two 
instead and did not hear where you were except for your character burning to 
death in the pit...
We had such problesms as I said before and they were fixed in betas 16, 17 
and 18. When you again changed the windows sound libraries, we again got 
serious problems as I also said in an earlier post to this list, so whatever 
you intend to do, this library you currently use can't be the right one for 
Windows unless you find a way to resolve its current problems.
As I also said before I could not finish Beta 19 due to several sound and 
movement issues, while I was able to beat Beta 18 after an intense Aaudio 
help session with Matheus...
And while this does not belong in a post about sound libraries, you need to 
do something about running jumps. Please give them a custom sound which 
differs from a normal jump and you need to do something that prevents 
consecutive normal jumps when you hold the keys too long after a running 
jump has been performed... 



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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Pitermach
The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu 
yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really 
outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. 
I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the 
windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, 
since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why 
worry about a handful of people...
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Charles,

Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick
support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine,
and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of
forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely
cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that
will allow me to build  high quality games  for my OS, Linux, and
still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well.

That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to
compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it.
I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no
longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate.



__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature 
database 5266 (20100709) __

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Charles Rivard
There was no constructive criticism, nor was there any encouragement in it. 
As far as a message like that being sent to the list instead of directly to 
the target, I'd say it was pointless, other than to stir up those who 
support Tom in his lengthy endeavor.  He does this work after taking the 
game over from someone so that we would not be ripped off when our money had 
been paid in good faith to someone who quit developing games.  He then works 
like heck to get the game not only the way he wants it to be, but works to 
also please the majority of gamers.  And he does this through feedback from 
us, as conflicting as it is.  Then, we have to see garbage like this as 
feedback?  Not yours that I am replying to, but the one you replied to.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


I think that was more than a little uncalled for. And I don't see what 
Final Fantasy has to do with this.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: lirin seal11...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few 
years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you 
haven't nothing.



Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little 
offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your 
products it is more and more fun.



Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc

You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and 
nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have 
really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming 
language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still.


Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case.
Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in 
future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the 
same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not.


Anyway, good luck with developing

PS.

It's final fantasy really, in real life lol


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Charles Rivard

I hope Allegro is a workable solution.

---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support



Hi Charles,

Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick
support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine,
and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of
forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely
cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that
will allow me to build  high quality games  for my OS, Linux, and
still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well.

That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to
compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it.
I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no
longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should 
go

with what produces the most accurate sound.  To a lot of people, MOTA's
nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor 
graphics.

Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound.  If that
cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to
work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or 
comes

very close to the sounds created with direct sound.  Poor graphics won't
sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the
blind gamer.  Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they
have heard better.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Karl Belanger
Hi,
Here's a thought, release a version for windows soon which uses directX and
etc. Once that is out and generating sales, take as much time as you need to
iron out the audio bugs in the cross-platform version. Most of the gaming
community will be off your back and happily playing, and you can work on
getting the audio right. Once you have a solution, you can either update the
windows version of Mota to use the new engine, or you can just leave it as
is. Another benefit is that you will have actual sales income to defray the
cost of FMOD, Allegro, or whatever audio library you decide to use.
Karl

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 4:27 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

Hi Charles,

Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick support,
etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine, and I even
agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of forward. The problem is
that I want and need a completely cross-platform solution that basically
does what DirectX does that will allow me to build  high quality games  for
my OS, Linux, and still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers
as well.

That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to compile a
Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it.
 I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no longer
use, but my customers will be happy at any rate.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you 
 should go with what produces the most accurate sound.  To a lot of 
 people, MOTA's nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that
has poor graphics.
 Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound.  If 
 that cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game 
 development to work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the 
 sound equals or comes very close to the sounds created with direct 
 sound.  Poor graphics won't sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or 
 inaccurate sound won't sell to the blind gamer.  Jumpy performance 
 just won't work for some people once they have heard better.

 ---
 Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it 
 to heart.

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Pitr,

That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over
looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing
these games in the first place?

Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games
for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I
could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be
fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community
specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games
for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in
writing them in the first place.

As for the second question, I started writing games because at the
time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it
before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I
sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit.  In fact, I'd go far to
say I hate writing games, because the experience has   become so much
of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the
community wants me to write it another.

For you its  easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for
Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small
handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not
writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well
refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be
no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for
Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that
what you want me to do?

In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find
a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me
cunstructive advice how to do that you are just  muddying the thread
with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for
Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu
 yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really
 outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration.
 I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the
 windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms,
 since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why
 worry about a handful of people...

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Karl,

That's probably what I'll end up doing in the end. I'm really sick and
tired of being asked when MOTA will be out, please fix the audio
because it sucks, etc and  since the Windows version of the G3D engine
used in beta 18 is rock solid stable that only seems like the best
thing to do for the short term.

Cheers!


On 6/12/11, Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net wrote:
 Hi,
 Here's a thought, release a version for windows soon which uses directX and
 etc. Once that is out and generating sales, take as much time as you need to
 iron out the audio bugs in the cross-platform version. Most of the gaming
 community will be off your back and happily playing, and you can work on
 getting the audio right. Once you have a solution, you can either update the
 windows version of Mota to use the new engine, or you can just leave it as
 is. Another benefit is that you will have actual sales income to defray the
 cost of FMOD, Allegro, or whatever audio library you decide to use.
 Karl

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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Ron Schamerhorn
Hi Tom

  I was planning to keep out of the debate here but have to point out.

  Granted Montezooma was something beyond your control.  Then you took the 
Mota angle with the game.  You've been up front about the development of it 
with everyone.  People have access to the betas you have released.
  You've taken the community view into consideration.
  I've no clue who the below person is but I think They're way out of line. 
Be happy that you've actually continued the project, and as for myself I am.
  Our devs deserve encouragement, not being shot down like that message.  On 
the upside there's always going to be someone to complain regardless of what 
you do.
  I don't know the more technical aspects of programming so can't really 
comment there.  However as has been said no dev is getting rich off our 
market so it's all in your hands.  I personally think you've done great with 
the cross platform game, keep it up!

Ron

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Hi Lirin,

You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but I don't consider the
fact I have written Star Trek Final Conflict, got screwed over
Montezuma's Revenge just about a month from final release, and writing
a cross-platform game engine exactly nothing. Yes it is true I have
released  several betas of Mysteries of the Ancients and that is only
because I am testing out various APIs before settling on one for all
of my  productions. That does not mean I have jumped from language to
language as you describe below. I've only switched languages once when
I decided to move from C# .Net to C++ to make a more open
cross-platform design. The way you talk I've done it 20 times which is
simply not true. So if you want to send me a negative comment like the
one below get your facts straight ok?

The facts are that Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is almost complete.
I'm in the process of adding additional levels, finalizing some game
mechanics, and working on a licensing system. However, the entire
point of this thread was to figure out what would be the best way to
handle audio with the G3D engine since it is A, cross-platform, and B,
because if not for this issue I could finish up MOTA and have it out
before the end of summer.

As for me not focussing on one project I think you are missing one
vital piece of information how I work. I may come on list and discuss
a  wrestling game or whatever, I'll take down notes, but it does not
necessarily mean I run off to my PC and start coding the thing. I am
merely writing down thoughts, ideas, and useful information for that
potential project. At the time being I only have two projects in
active development and that is MOTA and Raceway. With the majority of
my free time being spent specifically on MOTA so like I said get your
facts straight before running your mouth.

Cheers!

On 6/12/11, lirin seal11...@gmail.com wrote:
 Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a
 few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly
 interesting, you haven't nothing.


 Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little
 offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your
 products it is more and more fun.


 Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc

 You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and
 nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have
 really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming
 language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still.

 Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case.
 Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in
 future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the
 same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not.

 Anyway, good luck with developing

 PS.

 It's final fantasy really, in real life lol


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread shaun everiss
well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I 
don't like them that much.

At 08:32 a.m. 13/06/2011, you wrote:

Hi Tom,
I know that the current Windows sound library (Fmod EX), or what it 
is called was not very usable on the playyer's side in the latest public Beta.
We already had such problems  in earlier beta versions, i think Beta 
12, 13 or 14 or all of them.
There panning in combination with walking caused problems when it 
came to dealing with fire pids. Panning did not work then and when 
you were near a fire pit and wanted to make one step to the jumping 
point and you made two instead and did not hear where you were 
except for your character burning to death in the pit...
We had such problesms as I said before and they were fixed in betas 
16, 17 and 18. When you again changed the windows sound libraries, 
we again got serious problems as I also said in an earlier post to 
this list, so whatever you intend to do, this library you currently 
use can't be the right one for Windows unless you find a way to 
resolve its current problems.
As I also said before I could not finish Beta 19 due to several 
sound and movement issues, while I was able to beat Beta 18 after an 
intense Aaudio help session with Matheus...
And while this does not belong in a post about sound libraries, you 
need to do something about running jumps. Please give them a custom 
sound which differs from a normal jump and you need to do something 
that prevents consecutive normal jumps when you hold the keys too 
long after a running jump has been performed...


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Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

2011-06-12 Thread Hayden Presley


Hi,
I have to agree ere. I understand the intent here, but there has to be a way 
to send this that sounds less like hatemail and a message trying to put down 
Thomas in the longrun.Best Regards,

Hayden

--
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 3:50 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support

There was no constructive criticism, nor was there any encouragement in 
it. As far as a message like that being sent to the list instead of 
directly to the target, I'd say it was pointless, other than to stir up 
those who support Tom in his lengthy endeavor.  He does this work after 
taking the game over from someone so that we would not be ripped off when 
our money had been paid in good faith to someone who quit developing 
games.  He then works like heck to get the game not only the way he wants 
it to be, but works to also please the majority of gamers.  And he does 
this through feedback from us, as conflicting as it is.  Then, we have to 
see garbage like this as feedback?  Not yours that I am replying to, but 
the one you replied to.


---
Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to 
heart.
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


I think that was more than a little uncalled for. And I don't see what 
Final Fantasy has to do with this.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: lirin seal11...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support


Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a 
few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly 
interesting, you haven't nothing.



Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little 
offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your 
products it is more and more fun.



Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc

You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and 
nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have 
really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming 
language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still.


Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case.
Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in 
future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the 
same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not.


Anyway, good luck with developing

PS.

It's final fantasy really, in real life lol


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