Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-09 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

Dark wrote:

I think so long as there are some! games around, and so long as all
game developer is stil done by  indi  devs with their own time and
money, pushing multiple  accessible too much would hurt everyone in
the long run.

My reply:

Agreed. Its really impossible to create a game that takes in account
everybodies needs at once.  Over the last three years or so I've had
suggestions for this, that, and the other thing and the assumption is
that this or that will be really easy to add. i could just add an
on/off setting for it and so on.

What people don't realize is that it will increase the complexity   of
the project  and i'd have to break the code up into multiple if
statements  and spend extra time checking if this, that, or the other
thing is true or false before executing the code.  then do this or
that.  It is both complicated, from a long term support aspect, and
requires a lot more time and energy to design. As a single developer
I'm not getting paid enough to put that extra work into it.

Dark wrote:

Btw, also an interesting point is that some access changes are good
for some disabilities and bad for others.

My reply:

Oh, that's definitely true.  There is no way to make a game like
Shades of Doom, for example, playable by a deaf-blind player without
making  some extensive modifications. Adding braille display support,
making it turned based, whatever might help a deaf-blind gamer, but
would not be compatible with a real time FPS game that Shades of Doom
is suppose to be. Likewise Shades of Doom has 3d audio support via
DirectX, but that would be of no use to a deaf-blind gamer, but is
very helpful for me in a real time FPS environment. So there is no
practical way that multiple accessibility can be addressed in a single
game unless the developer takes a lowest common denominator approach,
and even then its not 100% perfect.  As you said what helps one group
won't necessarily help another group of disibilities.

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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-09 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Jim,

I honestly can't see any way to make a live action game like MOTA
playable by a totally deaf-blind gamer. At least not if we are going
to do everything in real time. A person has to have a reasonable
amountof hearing to play it.

As for using text in Windows games it can be done, but sometimes it
requires creating sets, scripts, etc for your application for each
screen reader. That's not exactly ideal since there are several
different screen readers out there these days.

The only solution I've found is not to draw my own window and output
text directly to the console using the command prompt window in
Windows. Most of the modern screen readers like Window-Eyes 7.5, Jaws
12, and NVDA 2011 all read the text as soon as it changes in the
command prompt window without scripts, sets, frames, whatever. So its
pretty reliable for my wrestling game.

On 6/8/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 Yes, and then besides people who can not do stereo panning, there are the
 people who are totally deaf and thus can not play audio only games at all.
 Not so sure how plausible it would be to try to create fast paced live
 action games that were text based and could be played via braille display.
 I still do not even like using text in Windows games for the fact that it
 can not be done so that the text is automatically read by all screen readers
 like I could in dos.  And in Jaws for dos there was a key that would report
 row and column of the cursor so that I could be sure to keep the text
 organized and looking good.  I am not sure if I was dreaming or what, but I
 have the thought that someone told me of a key like that for JFW, but I can
 not remember the key or who might have told me that.

 BFN

  Jim

 Error - Operator out of memory!

 j...@kitchensinc.net
 http://www.kitchensinc.net
 (440) 286-6920
 Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-09 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Dark,

Yeah, I do still wish that putting text on the screen in Windows would read 
automatically with all screen readers like it would in dos, but otherwise I 
agree with you that sapi5 works well.

I do also wish that I could have pretty graphics in my games so that sighted 
people would play them, but I can not do that.  Likewise as you said it is not 
going to be possible to make games that are totally accessible for any and all 
challenges that people may have.  If having a key to announce a position like 
in Mach 1 and Puppy 1 is possible and does not ruin the game play, then I am 
happy to do that.

BFN

Jim

To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the 
target.

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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-09 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Jim,

Well, there is a way to get screen readers to read the text in a
Window when it changes and it is to set the screen reader to speak all
or say all when launching the game/application.  Its certainly a hack,
not perfect, but I've used that  plenty of times to use something like
Winfrotz to read the text automatically when the text in the window
changes. However, I agree that using Sapi 5 generally works better in
the long run.

On 6/9/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote:
 Hi Dark,

 Yeah, I do still wish that putting text on the screen in Windows would read
 automatically with all screen readers like it would in dos, but otherwise I
 agree with you that sapi5 works well.

 I do also wish that I could have pretty graphics in my games so that sighted
 people would play them, but I can not do that.  Likewise as you said it is
 not going to be possible to make games that are totally accessible for any
 and all challenges that people may have.  If having a key to announce a
 position like in Mach 1 and Puppy 1 is possible and does not ruin the game
 play, then I am happy to do that.

 BFN

  Jim

 To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the
 target.

 j...@kitchensinc.net
 http://www.kitchensinc.net
 (440) 286-6920
 Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-08 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Harmony,

In my baseball game the pitch of the ball sound depicts the speed and height of 
the ball.  You know, below the knees, above the belt, or in between.  And the 
panning of the ball sound depicts the ball traveling from the mound to and over 
home plate.

In Homer on a Harley the panning of the crowd sound shows you how close you are 
to either the left or right garde rail as you drive your Harley around the oval 
track.  Then you must center Maggie's car horn to line up on the ramp to make 
your jump.  It is the same thing in Mach 1 as you drive the different race 
tracks.  How ever in Mach 1 there is a key that will report your left right 
position on the track.  Guess that I could have done that for Homer on a Harley 
as well.

In Pong the pitch of the ball sound depicts the speed of the ball.  The volume 
of the ball sound depicts the ball moving away from and back at you.  The 
panning of the sound depicts it's left right position, and you must move your 
paddle to that same position to hit the ball.  The ball in Pong has always sped 
up the more successful volleys.  Otherwise a single volley could last forever.

In Puppy 1 the pitch of the airplane engine sound and the wind sound depicts 
whether the enemy is above or below you, and the panning depicts if the enemy 
is to the left or right of you.  There is a key that will report the same thing.

In Spanker the entire thing of the game is to listen for if the person says 
Hi in the left, right or middle and then to press the appropriate arrow key.  
It is an adult version of a Bop It style game.

In Triple J Shooter the entire thing of the game is to move the breathing sound 
to the same left right position of where the woman stopped walking and at the 
same time move up and down adjusting the pitch of the breathing sound to the 
same pitch position of what the woman did during her walk.

So I think, like you said, in some games the pitch or even a key to announce 
the position can work, but in other games, maybe not so much.

BFN

Jim

I've got a picture of a pitcher drinking from a pitcher.

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Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-08 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Thomas,

Yes, and then besides people who can not do stereo panning, there are the 
people who are totally deaf and thus can not play audio only games at all.  Not 
so sure how plausible it would be to try to create fast paced live action games 
that were text based and could be played via braille display.  I still do not 
even like using text in Windows games for the fact that it can not be done so 
that the text is automatically read by all screen readers like I could in dos.  
And in Jaws for dos there was a key that would report row and column of the 
cursor so that I could be sure to keep the text organized and looking good.  I 
am not sure if I was dreaming or what, but I have the thought that someone told 
me of a key like that for JFW, but I can not remember the key or who might have 
told me that.

BFN

Jim

Error - Operator out of memory!

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-08 Thread dark

Hi Jim.

there seems to be a difference betwene generic text in text games and self 
voicing games that output to screen readers. With hal I can play if games 
quite successfully with just the general text reading commands and virtual 
focus, inlcuidn gold dos ones, but for any game where the text needs to be 
read in a certain time, eg, muds, lone wolf etc, it's far easier to just use 
sapi to self voice the game.


This is better for developers too rather than having to support everything, 
and then getting a complaint from someone who uses different software.


Dolphin have for instance recently this year finally! produced a public api 
for Hal that can be used to output streight to it, and in fact has already 
been used in quitta, however I'm not suddenly expecting everyone to modify 
their games to use it, in fact such an expectation would be unreasonable in 
the extreme.


The only reason I could see someone would not use sapi for a self voicing or 
real time game is voice, and plenty of voices are available,  pluss imho 
it's not precisely fair that a developer has to do lots of extra work to 
support everyone's software just because some people are too stingy to 
acquire better voices, or too picky to use the generic ones.


On the subject of accessible games to other disabilities, well that is a 
problem, and it's good there are! games around that have alternatives to 
using sterrio or use only text (though playing something like lone wolf or a 
mud with a braille display would be murderous indeed).


At the same time though, I do feel there needs to be some thought of time 
and resources. for instance, we do not go knocking on the door of 
oneswitch.org.uk asking for them to make  vi  accessible games sinse they 
have games for the motion impared, as obviously they have their own group to 
service.


I think so long as there are some! games around, and so long as all game 
developer is stil done by  indi  devs with their own time and  money, 
pushing multiple  accessible too much would hurt everyone in the long run.


for instance, imagine how much  more work mota would take if Tom had to add 
textual directions and some sort of one step mode to make it accessible to 
deaf/blind people.


I'm not saying it shouldn't be included, just that with the current state 
accessible games are in it would be as unreasonable to expect 
everything,  or even a vast majority of things, to include deaf/blind 
access as it would be for us to go and harrass developers of one switch only 
games into including audio access.


Btw, also an interesting point is that some access changes are good for some 
disabilities and bad for others.


i was quite depressed on retroremakes.com when I raised the subject of how 
inaccessible the new wiimote and wii menue system was to low vision and 
blind players as compared to menues you could just learn and individually 
press, when I was shouted down by a load of people saying how inconsidderate 
I was sinse the new wii system was great for physically impared players.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-07 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Thomas,

Yeah, just wanted to set the record straight.  I know of others who can not 
play most of my more recent games because of the stereo listening that is 
required.

BFN

Jim

Go straight to the docs.  Do not pass GO.  Do not collect  


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Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-07 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Jim,

That seems to be a fairly common problem with VI gamers in general.  A
lot of the VI people I've met also have some hearing related
disabilities as well as visual ones. I myself have some trouble with
hearing, but it doesn't effect me playing games most of the time.
 However, many cases though it is serious enough to require a hearing
aid or similar. So its definitely something to think about when
creating accessible games.

Cheers!

On 6/7/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 Yeah, just wanted to set the record straight.  I know of others who can not
 play most of my more recent games because of the stereo listening that is
 required.

 BFN

  Jim

 Go straight to the docs.  Do not pass GO.  Do not collect

 j...@kitchensinc.net
 http://www.kitchensinc.net
 (440) 286-6920
 Chardon Ohio USA
 ---
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-07 Thread Harmony Neil
I would say could a pitch be used rather than stereo sound? Saying that
though, this would be a problem if the game involved the player moving
forwards and backwards as well of left and right. Just a probably pointless
idea of mine.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 07 June 2011 13:14
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

Hi Jim,

That seems to be a fairly common problem with VI gamers in general.  A
lot of the VI people I've met also have some hearing related
disabilities as well as visual ones. I myself have some trouble with
hearing, but it doesn't effect me playing games most of the time.
 However, many cases though it is serious enough to require a hearing
aid or similar. So its definitely something to think about when
creating accessible games.

Cheers!

On 6/7/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 Yeah, just wanted to set the record straight.  I know of others who can
not
 play most of my more recent games because of the stereo listening that is
 required.

 BFN

  Jim

 Go straight to the docs.  Do not pass GO.  Do not collect

 j...@kitchensinc.net
 http://www.kitchensinc.net
 (440) 286-6920
 Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-06 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Thomas,

You know that many of my games do require stereo listening, such as baseball, 
Homer on a Harley, Mach 1, Pong, Puppy 1, Spanker and Triple J Shooter.

BFN

Jim

(This message in Stereo where available)

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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-06 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Jim,

Yes, but not all of your games are like that. I was mainly thinking of
Monopoly, Casino, Hangman, Life, and a number of your other board and
card games I play all the time. Those certainly don't require stereo
sound. However, you are definitely right that Puppy 1, Mach 1,
Spanker, etc do require stereo sound. So I'd say its sort of 50/50.

Cheers!



On 6/6/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 You know that many of my games do require stereo listening, such as
 baseball, Homer on a Harley, Mach 1, Pong, Puppy 1, Spanker and Triple J
 Shooter.

 BFN

  Jim

 (This message in Stereo where available)

 j...@kitchensinc.net
 http://www.kitchensinc.net
 (440) 286-6920
 Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-05 Thread Harmony Neil
There are other games like super egg hunt and the great toy robbery.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Sharon Hooley
Sent: 05 June 2011 04:03
To: gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

Hi again!

I'm looking for a fast-paced game, kind of like arcade but that 
doesn't require stereo or surround sound, as I am one-sided, waiting 
for a hearing aid to get fixed.  Finger Panic was a great example.  Any
others?

Sharon


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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-05 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Harmony,

I think Sharon was looking for something that didn't require the use
of both ears, I.E. stereo  panning, etc as it sounds like she is deaf
or nearly deaf in at least one ear.  In a case like that Sharon might
be better off with Jim Kitchens games, but she specifically mentioned
something that is more fast action, arcade-like, and there aren't many
that don't require both years.

On 6/5/11, Harmony Neil harmon...@googlemail.com wrote:
 There are other games like super egg hunt and the great toy robbery.
 -Original Message-
 From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
 Behalf Of Sharon Hooley
 Sent: 05 June 2011 04:03
 To: gamers@audyssey.org
 Subject: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

 Hi again!

 I'm looking for a fast-paced game, kind of like arcade but that
 doesn't require stereo or surround sound, as I am one-sided, waiting
 for a hearing aid to get fixed.  Finger Panic was a great example.  Any
 others?

 Sharon


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Re: [Audyssey] Other Game Ideas?

2011-06-05 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
I don't want to shove my own games at anyone, but Towers of War, Daytona, and 
Lunimals can be played without needing both ears.  In Lunimals it might be a 
little trickier knowing when the populations rise or fall, but other than that 
I don't think there would be any problems.  Daytona especially, has a good 
amount of action, so perhaps it is a good one to try.

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