Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-21 Thread Ken the Crazy

 the major issue I see in this is how to get the blind to play.
Its fine with the new gen of blind, ie those born in say the last 10 years 
say 2000 up or even 1995 or 1993 up, but anyone in the older generation 
which a lot are, have been used to blind games that will do everything 
because they are blind and they have always been easy.


Hey you young whipper snapper, watch it!  I was born in 1973 and just don't 
happen to fit that profile!  You young'ns, I tell ya!



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-21 Thread Ken the Crazy
My brother-in-law gave me a great surround sound system a few years back. 
Problem: there's no input for rear sounds.  It's got 2 movie inputs, 2 MP3 
inputs and so on, but there isn't a set of input jacks that says rear or 
anything like that, so I still have never experienced true surround sound, 
except at the theater.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Shaun,

I take your point about cost and space, and am well aware of those as
issues for many blind gamers.

For instance, you mention not having enough space for 5.1 speakers and
would have to stack them. The problem with that is you can't stack
those kinds of speakers and have them do what they are designed to do.
We are talking about a large subwoofer that sits on the floor, and
then you have at least five sattlelight speakers you have to spread
apart as evenly as possible. You will have two rear speakers, two
front speakers, and a center, plus the subwoofer itself. The way I
have my speakers set up I have the two front and two rear speakers
sitting on all four corners of my desk, and the center is sitting on a
shelf above my monitor. The subwoofer, which provides the base, is
sitting on the floor below my desk. Since everything is evenly spread
out when ever I am playing a game like Tank Commander or Shades of
Doom I get full surround sound output because I am able to hear if a
sound is coming from the rear left, rear right, front left, front
right, or center. It only works if your speakers are evenly spread
apart like I have it spread out on my desk.

Which brings me back to the point. I realise that this takes a lot of
space as well as money. I paid around $125 for the speakers I have
now, and they have been very very good speakers. Plus I disabled the
cheapo sound card in my desktop and replaced it with a Soundblaster
Audegy IV with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound support which was another
$125 or so. So my total upfront investment for my gaming machine was
$250 to get a decent quality sound for games. Most VI gamers aren't
going to fork over that kind of money since they are usually on
assisted living like SSI, SSDI, etc.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread shaun everiss

Yeah and thats not cheap.
Currently I am sorting out a good mic solution for my brother who 
needs it for draggon.

He can't afford it even in our currency.
So its cracked right now.
I am desperately looking for a price which is not 330 bucks which is 
what he needs.
I have managed to save 80 on an academic which the shops seem to have 
or at least one online store has, but the 250 bucks is not my issue.
the mic hardware is another thing all together and ties in with the 
hardware thing you were discussing.

A simple mic costs 150 bucks for speech recognition from that place.
However usb is another 250 at least and most of them are in the 
500-2000 dollar range.

Its a mission.
On the subject of gaming hardware, there is also space issues.
With my desk as it is with all my drives, cooling unit and shelf on 
it there is barely room for the 2 speakers of the sub below it.
Although in theory I could stack the 5.1 stuff on top of it it would 
be a rather big stack.

Then there is the question of environment as well as hardwre.
I am next to a room which has my brother and dad systems in it and 
often they are working and have their own music.
I can't vary well blast down the house so though I have 2.1 here i 
hardly am able to use it.
The only real hardware which I have is  pair of senheiser sets with 
some bass and good stereo semi 3d sound.
The hd card in the system helps, but with any really good card 
costing loads putting in to the mix that it will have to be a usb 
card as although I could have pcmcias the cabling would get in the way.
in fact I need to get another hub since cables on the ports of my 
system get in the way of things so there is no real compromise.

And then there is the cost of actual hardware ofcause.
Most don't have gaming mice or keyboards or anything close to what 
would be classed as an actuall working computer with acceptions.
I know for a fact my core2 duo 2gb is now basically scrap compaired 
to the newer and faster i3 and i7  i series cores that have at least 
4 or more cores in them.

The other issue ofcause is when you are sighted you buy for what you need.
When you are blind and don't have the cash you tend to buy the 
minimal system that can safely run things without crashing.

ie screenreaders, the web, email and your word processer.
If it can run games then cool but thats the way you do it.
Scarey thing is if I was not at home I wouldn't be able to buy any 
real tech not at least what I have now.
I'd probably still be on a broken vary slow single core if at all and 
sertainly not broadband.

So yeah soundcards and other things are not on my list to get.
The basics of system, 50 buck speakers and the appropriate hard 
drives secondary drives flash drives and the like are enough and they 
are just the basics you need in todays world.

I could go on but I won't.
At 07:43 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote:

Hi Ken,

that's a big part of the problem though. Most VI gamers frankly don't
have the right hardware/software to do 3d audio properly. I know
XAudio2 is pretty good if you have a 5.1 surround sound set of
headphones and/or speakers, but there we go looking at $99 or more
just to obtain some hardware to reproduce the 3d audio properly.
That's assuming they have a 5.1 or 7.1 sound card already.

Cheers!


On 3/17/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 You can also use 3d audio to let you know if things are above or below you,
 though you'll have to find something better the Directx for that.  There is
 a program called AM3D that is wonderful, being the same one used in the
 Blind Eye--but you don't really get a feel for how awesome it is by playing
 that.  What you'd really have to do is play with the Diesel 
engine--and when
 you've got the helicopter directly under your chin, and you feel 
the need to

 itch your throat, you know you've found a good 3d audio engine.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread shaun everiss
the issue of this ofcause is how to keep the gamer interested in the 
game after they fail.
Most of us are likely to cheat, try to make the game legally or 
otherwise playable or just leave it all together and or loose confordence.

Its for this reason I havn't managed to beat superliam.
I have gotten a rythm but it never lasts long.
I eventually die and then I don't touch the game for years.
At 08:01 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote:

Hi  Dark,

Oh, you noticed? Super Mario Brothers is exactly where I got the idea
for the lava pit from. Although, it doesn't appear in the demo since
the demo only goes to level 2. However, there are a number of
side-scrollers out there that have this style of jump onto a distant
ledge, then use that ledge to jump safely to the other side etc.

One of the more interesting twists on this theme is found in Tomb
Raider Angel of Darkness. There is this room filled with lava from
wall to wall, and there is a fire crystal on the far side of the room
Lara has to retreave. The only way to get the fire crystal is to jump
onto stones sticking up out of the lava. Obviously, there is way too
much risk of over jumping a stone or simply not jumping far enough
sending Lara screaming to her death in the lava below. What makes this
trap especially evil is once Lara lands on a stone it begins sinking
into the lava, and she can't use it again to get back out of the room.
So not only do you have to guess the jumps correctly you need to make
sure to plot a course that leaves enough stones left above the lava to
use to get back out again. I'd love to eventually come up with a
trap/puzzle that rivals something like that. Lol!

Anyway, I agree that we need more games where the player has to use
his her judgement to get passed certain traps rather than just
reacting to this or that all the time. I've found with Mysteries of
the Ancients that once a person discovers how to lower a bridge it is
no longer a trap or problem any more. However, what makes a large
chasm a real problem is if you have to do a running jump to cross one,
because then you have to use some skill and judgement to time the jump
just right rather than pulling a lever and getting a handy bridge.

Cheers!






On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge
 jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser
 castle in the first mario brothers.

 I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this.

 As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's 
difficulty

 comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many
 things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more
 satisfying to get through.

 Beware the grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread shaun everiss

the major issue I see in this is how to get the blind to play.
Its fine with the new gen of blind, ie those born in say the last 10 
years say 2000 up or even 1995 or 1993 up, but anyone in the older 
generation which a lot are, have been used to blind games that will 
do everything because they are blind and they have always been easy.
I must say that I was born in the 80s in fact its only in the last 
decade that the gaming industry has made any real advances.

We are in better shape than ever.
We have 3d environments and new filters and effect and up to 7.1 sound support.
We can use good sfx and voice almost if not on par with sighted gamers.
Its been shown that we can use servers for card games and strat games 
like quake and soundrts.

So its possible for us to expand.
there is currently not much of a gap between us and the sighted tech 
wise which is good.
Graphics ofcause have no concern to us, but we are still small 
companies and not that large.

a major project takes years to write and is a big undertaking.
We also can't with the marketing base we have right now sell games in 
access of 100 or even 300 or more bucks.

Sighted stuff starts at around 100 bucks.
Also   unlike sighted games that will eventually lower ours don't 
because well not in stores and other factors.

We can't make real cash to live off like the sighted.
And we can't just use the latest and greatest because our market is 
slower than the rest.
If you have the ability to make your own music with the right gear or 
hire some to be made then cool.
Else you will have to use libraries  you buy or get off the net for 
free and baring in mind if done legally the free libs have poor quality.

All this and then the fact that like everyone else there are copywrite issues.
ANd licencing issues.
Sighted companies usually can handle being sued or can nagotiate 
something or can pay large fees and stand to sell millions.

But we can't because of market size and because we have a specialised market.
There are vary few of the new gen that wish to try at least.
I wish to try, there  are some of the devs new and old that are 
trying, a load of new blood has been found through university 
projects and audiogames.net but most of the major devs remain quiet 
or non existant for the most part.

At least that is what I see as a player.
At 08:47 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote:

Hi Tom.

Funnily enough there is a very similar 2D version of that style of 
puzle in junk man's stage in MEga man 7 for the Snes, where using 
one of Mega man's weapons can cause metal bricks to fall down from 
the cieling into a pit of liquid metal. Only problem is, they start 
sinking so you need to be fairly sparing with that particular weapon.


I'll certainly be interested to see more of these sorts of things in audio.

Beware the grue!

dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread shaun everiss
Well I never have got use to coords systems or even degrees on compas 
propperly.

I can guess but am not used to that.
At 08:42 a.m. 18/03/2011, you wrote:

Hi Tom.

no, that isn't actually what I was thinking at all.

imagine a system of coordinates, and you are on a ledge at 3-2, but 
here nothing to the right of you, just a long pit.


However, if you activate the look up command, instead of hereing 
just that pit to the right of you, you will here the normal ledge 
sound of a ledge at 4-3, directly above and to the right of your 
current position.


The sound of the ledge does not change in pitch, but you know it is 
there sinse you have activated the look up function, and can 
therefore jump up and to the right.


The same could be true if there was a ledge at 4-1, just below your 
position if you activated look down.


This would let you build more complex jumping structures such as 
those found in games like mega man and marrio showing what is above 
and below the character rather than what is just immediately to the 
right or left of them or having to rely upon pitch.




Another way of thinking about it might be that in looking up you are 
virtually changing your characters position, pretending that he/she 
is at coordinates 4-2 instead of 3-2, thus allowing you to here what 
is up there to the right and left.


This is a similar concept to the idea of scrolling the screen with 
look commands. i can't recall if any nes era games did this, though 
quite a few snes and mega drive ones such as super starwars and 
micky mouse castle of illusion certainly did.


It just strikes me this is a way to get more mileage out of 2D 
sterrio sound and a better way to show what is above and below your character.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread shaun everiss
well ofcause all the challenge is how to put what is mostly graphics 
into sound and eventually we may get some or all of it but it will 
take time and skill.

At 06:31 a.m. 19/03/2011, you wrote:

Hi Damien,

Well, it all comes back to what I said earlier on list. What you call
advanced is what most mainstream gamers would call normal. As I've
said many times there is a huge difference between accessible games
and mainstream games that is like the difference between night and
day. For a lot of you some of the things I'm adding to MOTA beta 18
are new and novel concepts. Maybe advanced considering there haven't
been many accessible games introducing some of the new features I'm
about to release in the next beta.

For example, as I was just telling Dark one of the new features is the
ability to aim up, down, left, or right to shoot enemies attacking
from above, below, left, or right, etc. Not too many accessible games
have used this form of combat in even relatively simple 2d plat
formers. Yet I can point out a number of mainstream games from the
1980's and 1990's that featured exactly this kind of multidirectional
combat for years. Why has it taken so long for accessible game
developers to begin introducing some of these slightly more advanced
concepts?

Well, anyway, I don't think it will be that hard for you or anyone
else to begin playing games using some of these more advanced styles
of game play. It is simply something new, and will take a little
practice to get use to. I certainly hope introducing a number of these
concepts doesn't put anyone off from trying my games, because my only
aim here is to introduce other blind gamers to the styles of games I
use to play before I lost my sight as well as provide myself the
gratification of owning and playing some more sophisticated audio
games in the process.

Cheers!



On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it
 would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it 
as it would

 be for somebody to program it. Grin.
 I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a
 hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as
 gaming goes.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,

Yes, temperarily. As I just mentioned to dark beta 18 is practically
ready for release, and I'd like to begin wrapping things up this week.
I'd rather not try and spend an extra week or two on rewriting the G3D
targeting code to add a 2d look up/down feature when I can disable the
existing code and release the beta as is.

Cheers!


On 3/19/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 Ok...so are you taking out the shooting up or down?

 Best Regards,
 Hayden

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

I take your point about cost and space, and am well aware of those as
issues for many blind gamers.

For instance, you mention not having enough space for 5.1 speakers and
would have to stack them. The problem with that is you can't stack
those kinds of speakers and have them do what they are designed to do.
We are talking about a large subwoofer that sits on the floor, and
then you have at least five sattlelight speakers you have to spread
apart as evenly as possible. You will have two rear speakers, two
front speakers, and a center, plus the subwoofer itself. The way I
have my speakers set up I have the two front and two rear speakers
sitting on all four corners of my desk, and the center is sitting on a
shelf above my monitor. The subwoofer, which provides the base, is
sitting on the floor below my desk. Since everything is evenly spread
out when ever I am playing a game like Tank Commander or Shades of
Doom I get full surround sound output because I am able to hear if a
sound is coming from the rear left, rear right, front left, front
right, or center. It only works if your speakers are evenly spread
apart like I have it spread out on my desk.

Which brings me back to the point. I realise that this takes a lot of
space as well as money. I paid around $125 for the speakers I have
now, and they have been very very good speakers. Plus I disabled the
cheapo sound card in my desktop and replaced it with a Soundblaster
Audegy IV with 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound support which was another
$125 or so. So my total upfront investment for my gaming machine was
$250 to get a decent quality sound for games. Most VI gamers aren't
going to fork over that kind of money since they are usually on
assisted living like SSI, SSDI, etc.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread Shane Lowe

I aggree.

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Philip.

these are actually some of the ideas I was very much thinking of, 
especially the business about running.


I'll be interested to try this one when it's ready.

All the best,

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-20 Thread dark

Hi Tom.


funny enough that sounds like the same setup I have in my flat.

I will say though, despite having an extremely good set of logitech speakers 
which my very hifi orientated friend and I picked out as the best choice 
available, and which are wonderful for music and films, stil, if I play a 
game like tank commander, shades or even pinball xtreme I prefer headphones.


My logitech speakers are extremely good, they cost me about 230 pounds or 
roughly 320 dollars in 2006.


However, for immediacy of placing sounds I just much prefer to have the 
spacial quality of a pair of headphones.


Admittedly, my headphones are a fantastic set of sanheisars which cost me 
130 pounds, or roughly 200 dollars (though they're well worth it), so even 
compared to my logietch speakers the sound quality isn't a come down.



My point however, is that even if a game required 3D sound and the use of 5 
speakers, I would stil by choice use headphones.


As in fact I have said in game reviews, for some reason I just cannot get 
the same accuracy of sound positioning when playing on speakers as I can 
with headphones.


this is actually why i'd prefer things not to require 3D sound even though I 
have the facility for it.


That and of course when I'm on my laptop using my sanheisar ear buds (which 
are not quite as good as my headphones, but far more portable), I have no 
facility for speakers at all, yet audio games are a great thing to have on 
my laptop (I've just today got a new laptop and am at the moment updating 
all my games to run on it, luckily it stil uses xp sinse it was bought six 
months ago by my brother but not used).



Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-19 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Oh, I see. That makes sense. It does help to know the technical
language being used. Otherwise whatever you are reading about doesn't
make any sense at all.

However, there are mailing lists etc for creative writers I've found
helpful over the years. There are some people on those forums/lists
that are good researchers, can look up information like this, and then
explain it in down to earth fassion that a newby might be able to
understand. Although, I haven't used those lists in a long time I
remember having a discussion on one of those lists about the
possibility of FTL, AKA  faster than light, drive systems for
starships. Although, I've had some college level physics I'm no expert
on quantom mechanics and lack the necessary mathematical skills to
even consider talking about this stuff compitently. However, we got
into some basic ideas like some sort of tachion drive system that
would be FTL, but not something as fast as warp speed. Since tachions
are the only thing we know that can move faster than light it makes
for a good interesting discussion for a science fiction game that uses
 a faster than light drive system, but at least has some basis in
known physics. Make sense?

So maybe the answer for you is if you aren't sure about a topic go to
Yahoo Groups, Google Groups, and hunt around for a creative writing
mailing list where ou can post questions of a technical nature and
have people either help research or explain things so you can use them
more effectively in a game. It really helps to bounce ideas off
another person anyway as they'll often see problems and  other things
you missed in drafting your game idea. All authors do this to a
certain point, and most authors locate technical advisers to read over
what they have written and see if it jives with what they know.

HTH

On 3/18/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 In actual fact I did try to do a bit of research on different weaponry, but
 it tends to use a lot of jargon, especially for beginners, on subjects. It
 seems to all be written from an expert's point of view without considering
 the experience or knowledge of other less experienced researchers who are
 researching something without any prior knowledge whatsoever on the subject.
 I find that I can only really carry out research on things I do know a bit
 about before I can even begin to understand it properly.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-19 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

That's a good question and one I presently do not have an answer for.
As I said before I absolutely hate using pitch changes in some cases
because it totally changes the way the sound effect sounds ruining the
effect I'm aiming for. At the same time pressing m to speak the
location of the nearest enemy monster is equally not very good.
However, some things might just be common sense. A Skeleton walks on
the ground so if you are up on a ledge a little daductive reasoning
would mean he is below you on the ground. Harpies fly so they'd be a
little more difficult to figure out since they could be above, below,
or on the same level as you. As it happens G3D was designed for 3d
based games and I've been having troubles with the game mechanics in
MOTA. So I'm going to have to disable the look up/down feature etc in
beta 18 because I simply can't get it working without rewriting a crap
load of stuff in the engine since I didn't write the engine
necessarily to do this in 2d games, but only 3d games.

Cheers!

On 3/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 hi Tom.

 that actually sounds a lot like the system i've been seeing recently in
 super metroid, where you can aime in all eight  directions,  and often
 need to.

 My one concern however in audio is how you will know that  that a given
 enemy is vertically above or below.

 for instance, if you here a harpy attacking, when your on the edge of a
 ledge, is the harpy emmediately right/left, above, or below. such
 information will be needed if your to avoid attacks correctly, but I'm
 wondering how you'll such positioning without the player directly using the
 look key,  are you going to change enemies pitch or similar?

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-19 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ken,

Have you looked at FMOD EX by any chanse? The reason I ask is because
FMOD Ex works with Visual Basic .Net and has an extremely good 3d
audio engine. It is regarded my many game developers to be the best
comercial sound engine/API on the market. For free games FMOD is free,
and comercial licenses can be as low as $150 for a shareware type
license. I think if you want really good audio for your games FMOD Ex
is your best bet.

Another alternative you might not be aware of is SlimDX. SlimDX is a
free and open source wrapper for Microsoft DirectX and it supports
both DirectSound and XAudio2. So if DirectSound isn't your cup of tea
you can use their Managed XAudio2 library to access the advanced 5.1
and 7.1 3d audio it supports.

HTH


On 3/18/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Ah,
 Too bad it won't work with vb.net.  I've thought about porting Heli over but
 there's no point unless I can get a better 3d engine than DX.  I tried
 experimenting with Openal, but I can't even install the thing--and if it is
 installed, it doesn't like my hardware, and the software aspect doesn't seem
 to be there either, which is why I think it's not even installed at all.
 I've been trying to get in touch with the developer of the Blind Eye, to see
 about using the AM3d engine, but no luck, so for now I'm just concentrating
 solely on Phrase Madness.  Meantime, Louis is still working on the server
 code so people can upload and download comments to and from their game.
 He's had other stuff going on too, so it's taking him a while.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-19 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Thomas,
Ok...so are you taking out the shooting up or down?

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 11:41 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Hi Dark,

That's a good question and one I presently do not have an answer for.
As I said before I absolutely hate using pitch changes in some cases
because it totally changes the way the sound effect sounds ruining the
effect I'm aiming for. At the same time pressing m to speak the
location of the nearest enemy monster is equally not very good.
However, some things might just be common sense. A Skeleton walks on
the ground so if you are up on a ledge a little daductive reasoning
would mean he is below you on the ground. Harpies fly so they'd be a
little more difficult to figure out since they could be above, below,
or on the same level as you. As it happens G3D was designed for 3d
based games and I've been having troubles with the game mechanics in
MOTA. So I'm going to have to disable the look up/down feature etc in
beta 18 because I simply can't get it working without rewriting a crap
load of stuff in the engine since I didn't write the engine
necessarily to do this in 2d games, but only 3d games.

Cheers!

On 3/18/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 hi Tom.

 that actually sounds a lot like the system i've been seeing recently in
 super metroid, where you can aime in all eight  directions,  and often
 need to.

 My one concern however in audio is how you will know that  that a given
 enemy is vertically above or below.

 for instance, if you here a harpy attacking, when your on the edge of a
 ledge, is the harpy emmediately right/left, above, or below. such
 information will be needed if your to avoid attacks correctly, but I'm
 wondering how you'll such positioning without the player directly using
the
 look key,  are you going to change enemies pitch or similar?

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-19 Thread dark

Hi tom.

One idea which has occurred to me, is rather than changing the pitch of the 
monster, you might have a sound which is played at the same time the as the 
monsters' original sound and indicates it's position.


this wouldn't break up the game the way aa nearest monster2 speech key 
would, and would leave things immediate to the play, but would also mean you 
can position monsters where you like, rather than being limited to what is 
audible.


for instance, have a scope locator which is always active, but only sounds 
for monsters on an alternate horizontal plane to yourself, so that you will 
here both the harpy's flying wings and the sksleton's footsteps, and a low 
or high beep dependenting upon whether it is above or below you.
You might also considder as ken suggested altering the sounds in another way 
besides pitche,  for instance having the sound of enemies above you echo 
more, while enemies below sound far more basy.


These are just a couple of ideas, but certainly I think it would be possible 
to have an indicater that you can here while walking along.


this will for instance let you have situations which are comon in games like 
marrio but totally unknown thus far in audio,  such as you needing to 
jump up onto a lege with an enemy patrolling it, and having to wait until 
the enemy has retreated from the edge of the ledge before jumping up.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ken,

Yes, if you know what you are doing you can simulate a 3d effect
simply by using some calculations to position the sound in the stereo
field and to have the volume roll off correctly. A couple of years ago
I was looking at writing the Genesis 3D engine in Java. The only
problem was that the Java Sound API only has very generic effects such
as panning and volume. So what I did is I wrote my own 3d audio
wrapper that calculated the position of the sound and set the stereo
pan to position the sound in relation to the player. I used a simple
logarithmic function to calculate the volume and had it roll off more
smoothly/correctly. I have to say the 3d effect wasn’t bad and that
was using just simpley stereo pan and gain controls. However, that is
rather simplistic compared to what something like XAudio2 can do.

With XAudio2 you can actually set the volume for each channel/speaker
individually, and fine tune the 3d effect much more precisely than
DirectSound or something like the Java Sound API will allow for.
That’s why XAudio2 has largely replaced DirectSound for current PC and
Xbox game developers. It does much more than muffle sounds when they
are behind you it allows you to control how the effect sounds in each
and every channel of output at the same time. It also allows you to
mix and blend sounds to produce a more interesting effect.  Those are
just a few things that makes XAudio2 far superior to say DirectSound.

Cheers!



On 3/17/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 What about simulating it?  I don't know how easy it would be to do, but say
 you've got a creature in front of you.  You turn, and it pans to the right.
 Now as you keep turning, you replace its sound with one just like it but
 muffled somewhat.  I think that's all 3d audio is like--it just muffles
 sound that's supposed to be behind you, and I think the EQ or filtered
 sounds would suffice for above and below--but what do I know!  I'm about ten
 years out of date with most things programming.  LOL
 Ken Downey
 President
 DreamTechInteractive!
 And,
 Blind Comfort!
 The pleasant way to experience massage!
 It's the Caring
 without the Staring!

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

That’s my whole point. IN beta 18 the harpies are not on the same
level as you. To attack them you have to aim up to shoot one down as
they are actually flying and attacking from above you. They are not on
the ground on the same level as you. Not only that, but now that I
have activated the look down/look up feature in beta 18 you can now
stand on a ledge and aim your weapon downward and pick off enemies
below you from a snipers position. Beta 18 as you will soon find out
is taking full advantage of the 2d format and combat will now will
take place in and all directions. You will have enemies attacking from
above you, you may encounter enemies below you on the ground, enemies
may come at you from the left or right. For this reason that’s
precisely why I mentioned only seeing enemies when Angela is looking
up, down, or straight ahead is not a good idea. It would royally mess
up the new combat system.

Cheers!





On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 that is true regarding ropes, though with the harpies example I was going on
 the basis that something flying above you is not at the same level as you
 and thus cannot attack unless it's dropping bombs or similar.

 At the moment, for all gameplay purposes the harpies seem to be on the same
 horizontal plane as yourself as far as attacks and defense is concerned, and
 they only seem to attack horrizontally too,  though if your changing
 this fair enough.

 I do however think the pitch idea is quite possible, and could be used to
 show more complex ledge configurations requiring more work from he player to
 get around.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Well, it all comes back to what I said earlier on list. What you call
advanced is what most mainstream gamers would call normal. As I’ve
said many times there is a huge difference between accessible games
and mainstream games that is like the difference between night and
day. For a lot of you some of the things I’m adding to MOTA beta 18
are new and novel concepts. Maybe advanced considering there haven’t
been many accessible games introducing some of the new features I’m
about to release in the next beta.

For example, as I was just telling Dark one of the new features is the
ability to aim up, down, left, or right to shoot enemies attacking
from above, below, left, or right, etc. Not too many accessible games
have used this form of combat in even relatively simple 2d plat
formers. Yet I can point out a number of mainstream games from the
1980’s and 1990’s that featured exactly this kind of multidirectional
combat for years. Why has it taken so long for accessible game
developers to begin introducing some of these slightly more advanced
concepts?

Well, anyway, I don’t think it will be that hard for you or anyone
else to begin playing games using some of these more advanced styles
of game play. It is simply something new, and will take a little
practice to get use to. I certainly hope introducing a number of these
concepts doesn’t put anyone off from trying my games, because my only
aim here is to introduce other blind gamers to the styles of games I
use to play before I lost my sight as well as provide myself the
gratification of owning and playing some more sophisticated audio
games in the process.

Cheers!



On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it
 would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it would
 be for somebody to program it. Grin.
 I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a
 hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as
 gaming goes.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Lori Duncan
Hi Tom that sounds really great, what I can't understand is why don't any of 
you game developers out receive awards for your efforts, you really should.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Damien,

Well, it all comes back to what I said earlier on list. What you call
advanced is what most mainstream gamers would call normal. As I’ve
said many times there is a huge difference between accessible games
and mainstream games that is like the difference between night and
day. For a lot of you some of the things I’m adding to MOTA beta 18
are new and novel concepts. Maybe advanced considering there haven’t
been many accessible games introducing some of the new features I’m
about to release in the next beta.

For example, as I was just telling Dark one of the new features is the
ability to aim up, down, left, or right to shoot enemies attacking
from above, below, left, or right, etc. Not too many accessible games
have used this form of combat in even relatively simple 2d plat
formers. Yet I can point out a number of mainstream games from the
1980’s and 1990’s that featured exactly this kind of multidirectional
combat for years. Why has it taken so long for accessible game
developers to begin introducing some of these slightly more advanced
concepts?

Well, anyway, I don’t think it will be that hard for you or anyone
else to begin playing games using some of these more advanced styles
of game play. It is simply something new, and will take a little
practice to get use to. I certainly hope introducing a number of these
concepts doesn’t put anyone off from trying my games, because my only
aim here is to introduce other blind gamers to the styles of games I
use to play before I lost my sight as well as provide myself the
gratification of owning and playing some more sophisticated audio
games in the process.

Cheers!



On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:

Hi Thomas,
Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it
would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it 
would

be for somebody to program it. Grin.
I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a
hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as
gaming goes.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Ah, I see. Well, I’m no expert with guns etc either, but at least I’ve
seen them up close and have fired a few so have that much experience.
That said, it never hurts to do a little research on a topic, because
only by doing research will you be able to make the game act more
realistically and provide an overall better experience. Plus I’m
something of a jack of all trades, as they say here in the states, and
know a little bit about lots of different subjects. For that reason I
tend to judge a game on its realism or accuracy according to the real
world, and a game that doesn’t behave properly I tend to score lower
than one that is more detailed.

For example, let’s take our shotgun example for a moment. Let’s assume
I pick up a game and the developer doesn’t know beans about shotguns
and the game allows me to shoot a target from 100 meters away. Well,
since I do know something about shotguns, and have personally fired a
few in my day, I know that is definitely unrealistic. A shotgun is
only really good for at least 20 meters or so. Although, you might be
able to pull off an extremely long range shot from around 30 meters.
Plus you need a minimum of a meter between you and the target. So if
either one of those distances were misrepresented in the game I’d
decide that the game was poorly written, buggy, and would feel
compelled to inform the developer of his/her mistakes. Something no
game developer likes including myself.

So my advice to you and anyone else is try and do your homework. I’ve
had to do it several times when writing Mysteries of the Ancients. I
have never seen a Uzi up close much less fired one, but I managed to
get the specs an various Uzis and took what I learned and added it to
the game. The Uzi found in Mysteries of the Ancients is based on a
military grade Uzi carried by the Israeli military and allied forces.
I simply took those specs such as maximum distance, size of the ammo
clips, rate of fire, etc and entered those values into the weapon
description and voila. The game now does a decent job of simulating
firing a Uzi. I wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t checked places
like Wikipedia etc though.

Cheers!




On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 To be honest I didn't. As pretty much a beginner in audio games, only seeing
 the basics in them, that is the only thing I know. True, I could have
 perhaps thought better about what other in-game characters might do, but
 since I have only seen a search and destroy tactic, that's all I have ever
 attempted programming. Again, perhaps with different weaponry, I could have
 tried my imagination at, but in all honesty I don't know anything about
 weapons except they are used for fighting. Different lengths, mechanics and
 attack strategies would have never crossed my mind. For all I knew, guns
 were something you fired by pulling a trigger. I wouldn't have known if a
 gun was pocket size or the size of, say, a javelin.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Thomas,
In actual fact I did try to do a bit of research on different weaponry, but 
it tends to use a lot of jargon, especially for beginners, on subjects. It 
seems to all be written from an expert's point of view without considering 
the experience or knowledge of other less experienced researchers who are 
researching something without any prior knowledge whatsoever on the subject. 
I find that I can only really carry out research on things I do know a bit 
about before I can even begin to understand it properly.

Regards,
Damien.

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Damien,

Ah, I see. Well, I’m no expert with guns etc either, but at least I’ve
seen them up close and have fired a few so have that much experience.
That said, it never hurts to do a little research on a topic, because
only by doing research will you be able to make the game act more
realistically and provide an overall better experience. Plus I’m
something of a jack of all trades, as they say here in the states, and
know a little bit about lots of different subjects. For that reason I
tend to judge a game on its realism or accuracy according to the real
world, and a game that doesn’t behave properly I tend to score lower
than one that is more detailed.

For example, let’s take our shotgun example for a moment. Let’s assume
I pick up a game and the developer doesn’t know beans about shotguns
and the game allows me to shoot a target from 100 meters away. Well,
since I do know something about shotguns, and have personally fired a
few in my day, I know that is definitely unrealistic. A shotgun is
only really good for at least 20 meters or so. Although, you might be
able to pull off an extremely long range shot from around 30 meters.
Plus you need a minimum of a meter between you and the target. So if
either one of those distances were misrepresented in the game I’d
decide that the game was poorly written, buggy, and would feel
compelled to inform the developer of his/her mistakes. Something no
game developer likes including myself.

So my advice to you and anyone else is try and do your homework. I’ve
had to do it several times when writing Mysteries of the Ancients. I
have never seen a Uzi up close much less fired one, but I managed to
get the specs an various Uzis and took what I learned and added it to
the game. The Uzi found in Mysteries of the Ancients is based on a
military grade Uzi carried by the Israeli military and allied forces.
I simply took those specs such as maximum distance, size of the ammo
clips, rate of fire, etc and entered those values into the weapon
description and voila. The game now does a decent job of simulating
firing a Uzi. I wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t checked places
like Wikipedia etc though.

Cheers!




On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:

Hi Thomas,
To be honest I didn't. As pretty much a beginner in audio games, only 
seeing

the basics in them, that is the only thing I know. True, I could have
perhaps thought better about what other in-game characters might do, but
since I have only seen a search and destroy tactic, that's all I have ever
attempted programming. Again, perhaps with different weaponry, I could 
have

tried my imagination at, but in all honesty I don't know anything about
weapons except they are used for fighting. Different lengths, mechanics 
and

attack strategies would have never crossed my mind. For all I knew, guns
were something you fired by pulling a trigger. I wouldn't have known if a
gun was pocket size or the size of, say, a javelin.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Ken the Crazy

Ah,
Too bad it won't work with vb.net.  I've thought about porting Heli over but 
there's no point unless I can get a better 3d engine than DX.  I tried 
experimenting with Openal, but I can't even install the thing--and if it is 
installed, it doesn't like my hardware, and the software aspect doesn't seem 
to be there either, which is why I think it's not even installed at all.
I've been trying to get in touch with the developer of the Blind Eye, to see 
about using the AM3d engine, but no luck, so for now I'm just concentrating 
solely on Phrase Madness.  Meantime, Louis is still working on the server 
code so people can upload and download comments to and from their game. 
He's had other stuff going on too, so it's taking him a while. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
Do you still have that Space Invaders-style game under development?

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Ken the Crazy
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:27 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Ah,
Too bad it won't work with vb.net.  I've thought about porting Heli over but

there's no point unless I can get a better 3d engine than DX.  I tried 
experimenting with Openal, but I can't even install the thing--and if it is 
installed, it doesn't like my hardware, and the software aspect doesn't seem

to be there either, which is why I think it's not even installed at all.
I've been trying to get in touch with the developer of the Blind Eye, to see

about using the AM3d engine, but no luck, so for now I'm just concentrating 
solely on Phrase Madness.  Meantime, Louis is still working on the server 
code so people can upload and download comments to and from their game. 
He's had other stuff going on too, so it's taking him a while. 


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread dark

hi Tom.

that actually sounds a lot like the system i've been seeing recently in 
super metroid, where you can aime in all eight  directions,  and often 
need to.


My one concern however in audio is how you will know that  that a given 
enemy is vertically above or below.


for instance, if you here a harpy attacking, when your on the edge of a 
ledge, is the harpy emmediately right/left, above, or below. such 
information will be needed if your to avoid attacks correctly, but I'm 
wondering how you'll such positioning without the player directly using the 
look key,  are you going to change enemies pitch or similar?


Beware the Grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Dark,

That’s my whole point. IN beta 18 the harpies are not on the same
level as you. To attack them you have to aim up to shoot one down as
they are actually flying and attacking from above you. They are not on
the ground on the same level as you. Not only that, but now that I
have activated the look down/look up feature in beta 18 you can now
stand on a ledge and aim your weapon downward and pick off enemies
below you from a snipers position. Beta 18 as you will soon find out
is taking full advantage of the 2d format and combat will now will
take place in and all directions. You will have enemies attacking from
above you, you may encounter enemies below you on the ground, enemies
may come at you from the left or right. For this reason that’s
precisely why I mentioned only seeing enemies when Angela is looking
up, down, or straight ahead is not a good idea. It would royally mess
up the new combat system.

Cheers!





On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

Hi Tom.

that is true regarding ropes, though with the harpies example I was going 
on

the basis that something flying above you is not at the same level as you
and thus cannot attack unless it's dropping bombs or similar.

At the moment, for all gameplay purposes the harpies seem to be on the 
same
horizontal plane as yourself as far as attacks and defense is concerned, 
and

they only seem to attack horrizontally too,  though if your changing
this fair enough.

I do however think the pitch idea is quite possible, and could be used to
show more complex ledge configurations requiring more work from he player 
to

get around.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-18 Thread dark
Personally tom, i'd love to see people be able to enjoy the sort of fun i do 
everytime I fire up a game like Turrican, metroid or mega man in audio.


I've enjoyed them for years and stil do and will love to have exploration 
platformers with multidirectional enemies.


Pluss this also means, if by any chance I lost my remaining vision in future 
I automatically wouldn't have to say goodbye to this style of game, which 
has actually been a fear of mine in the past (though provided I keep up with 
my medication my sight should remain stable).



I do think audiogames audio games in 3D have done very well, in fact as I've 
said before it was playing shades of doom with it's multiuple weapons and 
explorable first person base which actually got me interested in audiogames 
first off.


but certainly this tradition hasn't been carried on in too many other 
action games as yet, and certainly not in 2D.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

That is quite a number of interesting points you raised here. I happen
to agree with you on all points. In fact, this is in large part why
Mysteries of the Ancients beta 18 is taking so long to release. I
decided to go back in and rewrite some of the various game mechanics
such as jumping to resemble that of the classic NES era games where
the longer you hold down the jump button/keys the higher and further
the main character will jump. As you said this requires a lot more
skill and judgment of how long to hold down the buttons or keys before
releasing them.

As you know in beta 17 and earlier I had a very simple jump system in
place where all you needed to do is press control+left arrow or
control+right arrow and Angela would safely land on the other side of
the pit, chasm, fire, lava, whatever just about every time. However,
not only was that very easy it was also pretty boring. So what I did
is I completely redesigned the jump mechanics to be more like classic
NES games like Super Mario where you now have to time your jumps in
order to make it safely to the other side of a trap. there have been a
number of times where I have over estimated a jump or under estimated
the length of a jump and Angela ended up impailed on a bronze spike,
took a bath in hot boiling lava, or got roasted over a huge fire pit.

For instance, one of the traps in the game is a large lava pit with a
stone ledge hanging out over the middle of the pit. The trick to
getting over the lava pit is to jump from one side of the pit up onto
that hanging stone ledge, and jump from there to the other side of the
pit. As you might have guessed this takes perfect timing and percision
to do it correctly. If you misjudge the length of the jump Angela is
going to have a very hot bath in lava. If you don't jump far enough
Angela will not reach the ledge and fall into the lava. If you hold
down the keys too long she'll jump over the stone ledge and land in
the lava anyway. The key to successfully making it is listening very
carefully to the drip, drip, drip, of the water dripping off that
ledge and judge your jump as best as you can. This way insures you use
both some skill and personal judgement to figure out how far and
howlong to jump rather than Angela just landing on that ledge as soon
as she is close to it as the game use to.

So what you are suggesting here is very possible. I've been practicing
with some of these ideas you suggested in beta 18, and I think it
would be cool if more games started doing this as well. It makes
jumping far more tricky and takes practice to get just right. I've
learned from my own experience with MOTA beta 18 you won't get it
right your first try in a lot of cases.

As far as changing pitch of pits and stuff that's another good idea. I
should probably put that down in my things to do list for beta 18. You
have a point that the deeper the sound of the pit the larger the pit.
The higher the sound the smaller it is and you should be able to
determine its size by pitch alone rather than just using a look/view
command to gather that information all the time.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Phil.

 i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for
 over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over
 complicating the situation more than it would need to be.

 As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch
 of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge
 (to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind
 sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit
 which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind.

 A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running
 given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a
 pit,  heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run
 button perminantly held anyway.

 As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a
 perfect example of this.

 Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has
 to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many
 audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they
 did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating
 their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by
 working on a basic stimulous response model.

 Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be
 part of the experience.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Philip,

Well, I for one, happen to feel the same way you do. I'd much prefer
some sort of audio feedback rather than always having a verbal message
saying this or that. It ruins the atmosphere and feel of the game for
me having Sapi or some other voice saying this or that all the time.
Generally speaking there are usually ways of conveying that
information through some sort of audio feedback instead.

For example, in MOTA whenever Angela picks up an item it plays a sound
and speaks whatever item Angela has located. Well, I don't really like
the speech announcing everything all the time so I've been working on
conveying that information in other ways. One way is now when Angela
picks up pistol ammo you hear the sound of Angela reloading her
pistol. If she picks up a box of shotgun shells you hear her racking a
shell into the shotgun. Not only is this more realistic than before
each pickup sound is unique and I don't really think we need the
verbal feedback any longer because you should be able to determine
what she picked up by sound alone. This just really improves the
atmosphere because it doesn't have that feeling of blind accessible
audio game written all over its face as you say.

As for in-game menus such as a look/view menu I don't personally care
for them either. Although, i have a view menu in Mysteries of the
Ancients I actually don't use it myself. It is just there for the
newbies/beginners who doesn't know where everything is or what
something sounds like. Otherwise I just play without it. I don't like
interrupting my game play to look around.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:
 Hi Phil,

 I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the
 feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide or
 that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. It
 has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know what
 I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than
 speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For example I
 was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel
 that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up including
 it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly
 where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method
 that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion that
 an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title is
 the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. Any
 thoughts?

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi,
I'm pretty much the same. I never use the look features in games unless it 
is absolutely necessary for me to do so, such as in tank commander where I 
can't tell where my open spaces are etc..

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Philip,

Well, I for one, happen to feel the same way you do. I'd much prefer
some sort of audio feedback rather than always having a verbal message
saying this or that. It ruins the atmosphere and feel of the game for
me having Sapi or some other voice saying this or that all the time.
Generally speaking there are usually ways of conveying that
information through some sort of audio feedback instead.

For example, in MOTA whenever Angela picks up an item it plays a sound
and speaks whatever item Angela has located. Well, I don't really like
the speech announcing everything all the time so I've been working on
conveying that information in other ways. One way is now when Angela
picks up pistol ammo you hear the sound of Angela reloading her
pistol. If she picks up a box of shotgun shells you hear her racking a
shell into the shotgun. Not only is this more realistic than before
each pickup sound is unique and I don't really think we need the
verbal feedback any longer because you should be able to determine
what she picked up by sound alone. This just really improves the
atmosphere because it doesn't have that feeling of blind accessible
audio game written all over its face as you say.

As for in-game menus such as a look/view menu I don't personally care
for them either. Although, i have a view menu in Mysteries of the
Ancients I actually don't use it myself. It is just there for the
newbies/beginners who doesn't know where everything is or what
something sounds like. Otherwise I just play without it. I don't like
interrupting my game play to look around.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:

Hi Phil,

I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the
feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide 
or
that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. 
It
has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know 
what

I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than
speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For 
example I

was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel
that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up 
including

it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly
where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method
that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion 
that
an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title 
is
the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. 
Any

thoughts?

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Phil,

Smile. You are in luck. As it so happens running jumps have been one
of the requests I've actually gotten around to adding to MOTA in beta
18. If you use shift+control+left arrow or shift+control+right arrow
Angela will run up to a pit, spike trap, etc then jump over it. With
the new jump mechanics in beta 18 you actually do have to figure out
how long to hold the keys down or she'll over jump the trap or not
jump far enough. So part of what you are asking for is being fulfilled
right now in MOTA beta 18.

However, as for speaking you jumped 5 feet, 7 feet, etc I'm with
Philip.  I really don't like games with too much verbosity in them. It
is my personal opinion that a really good accessible game is one that
has enough audio clues or indicators that speech is unnecessary.

For example, one suggestion Dark had is if you are trying to jump a
pit a large pit would sound deeper than a small pit. If you realise
that you can probably figure out if the pit is jumpable or not just by
the sound it makes. Something simple like that would render a command
which says pit 10 feet wide pretty much unnecessary.


Cheers!


On 3/16/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote:
 Hi Dark,
 I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump.
 For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a
 standing  stop at the edge.
 But you could jump it if your were running.
 This would require an auto run feature  so you don't have to hit a key to
 move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound
 that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge.
 Then a jump key to hit when the time is right.
 This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely.
 So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful.
 For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is
 eight feet wide.
 You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop.
 So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in
 the pit.
 The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1
 foot.
 A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you
 would not get killed if you did not get across.
  Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your
 weapon.
 There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you
 jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage
 if you over-jumped.
 Phil

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Philip,

Wow! Glad to hear it. It sounds like you are taking a page out of my
playbook with the min and max range for weapons. That's something I
have had in Mysteries of the Ancients for a long time now, and it
definitely changes the strategy of the game somewhat. If you have a
shotgun you need to stand back at least three feet in order to bring
the barel up and shoot whatever it is you are trying to kill. Weapons
like daggers are close range weapons so you can walk right up to
whatever it is and stab it. I'm glad to see you have decided to take
this approach as I've often thought it was a bit unrealistic that some
games allow you to walk right up to an enemy and shoot them with a
rifle etc from less than a foot away etc.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:
 Hi Dark,

 In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
 attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a
 very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the
 fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you
 begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to
 your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or
 five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of
 weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a
 minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from
 the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The
 knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range
 combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and
 coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in
 the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile.

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

Actually, there have been a few accessible games to use a true
analogue system for jumping. If you remember the original Montezuma's
Revenge written by Alchemy Game Studios used an analogue jump system.
For the life of me I can't remember why I didn't go ahead and use it
in the USA Games version, but I do know that the original version
James North wrote definitely had an analogue jump system in place.
Which is one of the few accessible games I know of to use that type of
jump system.

However, as I've mentioned several times today Mysteries of he
Ancients beta 18 has had a huge improvement and major upgrade to its
own jump mechanics. It now uses a true analogue jump system analogous
to games like Super Mario Brothers or Tomb Raider Prophecy. So what
you are hoping for is just around the corner as far as the next
generation of accessible games are concerned. All of my future games
will likely use an analogue jump system from now on.

As for adding more dinamic effects to sounds is something I've aded to
my todo.txt file. So if it doesn't get done in beta 18 it should
hopefully be done before final release. For one thing I'm waiting on
Philip Bennefall to release the new Streemway update to me so I can
get my grubby paws on XAudio2. However, I'm one developer who is
listening to you and am trying to implament as many of these things as
humanly possible.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hello Darren.

 Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
 head.

 You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
 golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

 However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely
 presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
 it, rather than there being a set way.

 For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
 from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

 While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work
 to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits
 to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

 To take your example, look at these two different situations:

 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
 defend yourself the instance after.

 or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
 use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

 the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
 perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a
 surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that
 attack once your across the pit.

 The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
 take into account the environment around you.

 I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
 environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
 wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
 engagin in attacks with them.

 Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
 movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
 your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
 button not merely pressing it.

 This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just
 rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Thomas,

Oh my intention is definitely not to copy/steal Mota. In fact I have been 
deliberately avoiding playing the latest betas while I am developing the 
core of my game, as to avoid unintentionally copying things from you. If I 
am faced with a new concept to implement and I have just finished playing 
Mota where this concept is addressed I might be tempted to just reuse this 
idea, where as if I have no idea how other games do it I am forced to think 
for myself and come up with something new. So for this reason I haven't 
played Mota for the last 4 or 5 months, as much as I would like to. So 
anything that may be similar in terms of implementation, is certainly not 
intentional and I apologize if you feel that this is the case.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Philip,

Wow! Glad to hear it. It sounds like you are taking a page out of my
playbook with the min and max range for weapons. That's something I
have had in Mysteries of the Ancients for a long time now, and it
definitely changes the strategy of the game somewhat. If you have a
shotgun you need to stand back at least three feet in order to bring
the barel up and shoot whatever it is you are trying to kill. Weapons
like daggers are close range weapons so you can walk right up to
whatever it is and stab it. I'm glad to see you have decided to take
this approach as I've often thought it was a bit unrealistic that some
games allow you to walk right up to an enemy and shoot them with a
rifle etc from less than a foot away etc.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:

Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have 
a

very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the
fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when 
you

begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to
your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four 
or

five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of
weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a
minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit 
from

the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The
knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range
combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and
coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures 
in
the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. 
smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

Its funny that you brought this topic up as I think you and I have
been thinking on the same wave length lately. I've been considering
this same issue for a number of months, and I agree one thing
accessible games universally lack is realistic and dinamic movement.
In Q9, for example, all you have to do is press the up arrow key and
tap the arrow key x number of times to get over the pit. If I'm not
mistaken Super Liam has this exact jump system as well. The problem
with it is once you remember how many times to tap the arrow key there
is little room for error, and you'll just remember to press up and
right three times or whatever.

As you say more mainstream games like Super Mario don't have it quite
that easy. You really have to time your jumps, figure out where to
jump from, and/or decide to do a running jump, etc. How long you hold
down the jump button on the controller will determine in part how high
and far you can jump. Not only that but there were other factors such
as how big Mario was when jumping. If Mario was shrunk he couldn't
jump as high or as far as he could when normal size or when he was
Super Mario. It is these number of dinamic factors very few accessible
game developers have largely ignored or have failed to consider in
accessible games.

That said, I don't see any reason why we couldn't begin doing this in
accessible games. As I've already mentioned I've been updating
Mysteries of the Ancients to include a more analogue jump system, and
it looks like Philip Bennefall is looking into this as well. So
hopefully a new generation of accessible platformers are about to be
released in the not too distant future.

However, I do agree using sound alone is problematic. It is something
I'm working on, experimenting with, but there really is no easy way to
identify if a row of spikes is above or below you just by sound alone.
You can play around with pitch and things like that, but even then it
can be difficult to figure out which is wich. Plus I've discovered if
you change the pitch too much on certain sounds they just end up
sounding down right weird and that ruins the atmosphere as much as
having a game voice speaking the information. Perhaps mmore so in some
cases.

Cheers!

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Philip,

Smile. Oh, I wasn't accusing you of copying MOTA. I was merely
remarking/commenting on how glad I was that you were implamenting some
of the more advanced features/concepts I've used in developing my own
games. One thing I'm very interested in is realism. I.E. if you have a
shotgun you shouldn't be able to blow an enemy skeleton away from one
foot away. You need to stand back a few feet and then shoot it. Not
many accessible game developers have really added these kinds of more
advanced features/concepts which is a shame. As I pointed out it
really does change the tactics and strategy as you really have to
figure out the optimum min and max range for each weapon which is more
challenging than just shooting blindly at a target from any distance.
So I'm happy to know your next game will be using these kinds of game
elements.

Cheers!




On 3/17/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 Oh my intention is definitely not to copy/steal Mota. In fact I have been
 deliberately avoiding playing the latest betas while I am developing the
 core of my game, as to avoid unintentionally copying things from you. If I
 am faced with a new concept to implement and I have just finished playing
 Mota where this concept is addressed I might be tempted to just reuse this
 idea, where as if I have no idea how other games do it I am forced to think
 for myself and come up with something new. So for this reason I haven't
 played Mota for the last 4 or 5 months, as much as I would like to. So
 anything that may be similar in terms of implementation, is certainly not
 intentional and I apologize if you feel that this is the case.

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Ken the Crazy
You could also take a generic pit sound and apply filters to it to change 
its timbre, so you have different sounds for pits to tell how narrow or wide 
they are.  A narrow pit would sound like an oo, ahile a wide pit would be 
like an ah.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

That is quite a number of interesting points you raised here. I happen
to agree with you on all points. In fact, this is in large part why
Mysteries of the Ancients beta 18 is taking so long to release. I
decided to go back in and rewrite some of the various game mechanics
such as jumping to resemble that of the classic NES era games where
the longer you hold down the jump button/keys the higher and further
the main character will jump. As you said this requires a lot more
skill and judgment of how long to hold down the buttons or keys before
releasing them.

As you know in beta 17 and earlier I had a very simple jump system in
place where all you needed to do is press control+left arrow or
control+right arrow and Angela would safely land on the other side of
the pit, chasm, fire, lava, whatever just about every time. However,
not only was that very easy it was also pretty boring. So what I did
is I completely redesigned the jump mechanics to be more like classic
NES games like Super Mario where you now have to time your jumps in
order to make it safely to the other side of a trap. there have been a
number of times where I have over estimated a jump or under estimated
the length of a jump and Angela ended up impailed on a bronze spike,
took a bath in hot boiling lava, or got roasted over a huge fire pit.

For instance, one of the traps in the game is a large lava pit with a
stone ledge hanging out over the middle of the pit. The trick to
getting over the lava pit is to jump from one side of the pit up onto
that hanging stone ledge, and jump from there to the other side of the
pit. As you might have guessed this takes perfect timing and percision
to do it correctly. If you misjudge the length of the jump Angela is
going to have a very hot bath in lava. If you don't jump far enough
Angela will not reach the ledge and fall into the lava. If you hold
down the keys too long she'll jump over the stone ledge and land in
the lava anyway. The key to successfully making it is listening very
carefully to the drip, drip, drip, of the water dripping off that
ledge and judge your jump as best as you can. This way insures you use
both some skill and personal judgement to figure out how far and
howlong to jump rather than Angela just landing on that ledge as soon
as she is close to it as the game use to.

So what you are suggesting here is very possible. I've been practicing
with some of these ideas you suggested in beta 18, and I think it
would be cool if more games started doing this as well. It makes
jumping far more tricky and takes practice to get just right. I've
learned from my own experience with MOTA beta 18 you won't get it
right your first try in a lot of cases.

As far as changing pitch of pits and stuff that's another good idea. I
should probably put that down in my things to do list for beta 18. You
have a point that the deeper the sound of the pit the larger the pit.
The higher the sound the smaller it is and you should be able to
determine its size by pitch alone rather than just using a look/view
command to gather that information all the time.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

Hi Phil.

i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for
over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over
complicating the situation more than it would need to be.

As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the 
pitch
of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the 
edge

(to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind
sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit
which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind.

A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running
given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge 
of a

pit,  heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run
button perminantly held anyway.

As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are 
a

perfect example of this.

Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she 
has
to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that 
many

audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they
did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Thomas,

Ah, that is good. I misunderstood the message.

Another topic which I think deserves some consideration and which I have 
been spending a lot of time on myself, is artificial intelligence. In a lot 
of sidescrollers the enemies are very generic. If player left, walk left. if 
player right, walk right. If player within range, fire. This bores me, and 
so I am really trying to step outside the box in this regard. My enemies 
employ proper pathfinding, and make intelligent decisions based on their 
surroundings and if they are being attacked etc. For instance, I had a 
chimpanzee who got angry with me, not because I hurt him but because I fired 
a shot near him and that made him take a strange dislike to me. So he chased 
me across half the jungle, even up into a tree where I fortunately managed 
to knock him down from the branch so that he went crashing onto the ground. 
After that, he got frightened and ran away from me. This sort of thing is as 
far from Q9 as you can get, where the enemies just move towards the player 
and attack. The creatures in my jungle actually interact with each other as 
well, not just with the player. It is particularly enjoyable listening to 
two boars fighting it out, or hearing a chimpanzee knock a little monkey 
down from a branch 16 feet up in the air.


What I am trying to say is that AI really made a difference in the case of 
my game. A lot of people won't notice all the stuff I have spent time on, 
but the over-all feel of the characters is a lot more realistic one than the 
dumb search and destroy mentality that is implemented for the enemies in 
other similar games. What are your thoughts on this?


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Philip,

Smile. Oh, I wasn't accusing you of copying MOTA. I was merely
remarking/commenting on how glad I was that you were implamenting some
of the more advanced features/concepts I've used in developing my own
games. One thing I'm very interested in is realism. I.E. if you have a
shotgun you shouldn't be able to blow an enemy skeleton away from one
foot away. You need to stand back a few feet and then shoot it. Not
many accessible game developers have really added these kinds of more
advanced features/concepts which is a shame. As I pointed out it
really does change the tactics and strategy as you really have to
figure out the optimum min and max range for each weapon which is more
challenging than just shooting blindly at a target from any distance.
So I'm happy to know your next game will be using these kinds of game
elements.

Cheers!




On 3/17/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:

Hi Thomas,

Oh my intention is definitely not to copy/steal Mota. In fact I have been
deliberately avoiding playing the latest betas while I am developing the
core of my game, as to avoid unintentionally copying things from you. If I
am faced with a new concept to implement and I have just finished playing
Mota where this concept is addressed I might be tempted to just reuse this
idea, where as if I have no idea how other games do it I am forced to 
think

for myself and come up with something new. So for this reason I haven't
played Mota for the last 4 or 5 months, as much as I would like to. So
anything that may be similar in terms of implementation, is certainly not
intentional and I apologize if you feel that this is the case.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge 
jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser 
castle in the first mario brothers.


I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this.

As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's difficulty 
comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many 
things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more 
satisfying to get through.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

Actually, I've only tried alchemy monti a couple of times last year and each 
time I got to a point where the game crashed (sinse the last usa games beta 
I have is far more complete and playable), so gave up with it, so I never 
noticed the analogue jumps.


I never played it at the time it was originally released sinse that was in 
early 2006 and at that point I couldn't get version 1 of the net framework 
to run correctly, and by the time that problem was fixed the Alchemy 
montizumas revenge wasn't around anymore.


Either way though I'll be glad to see these sorts of things implemented.

They are things I've been wanting to see in audiogames for quite a long 
while.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Ken the Crazy
You can also use 3d audio to let you know if things are above or below you, 
though you'll have to find something better the Directx for that.  There is 
a program called AM3D that is wonderful, being the same one used in the 
Blind Eye--but you don't really get a feel for how awesome it is by playing 
that.  What you'd really have to do is play with the Diesel engine--and when 
you've got the helicopter directly under your chin, and you feel the need to 
itch your throat, you know you've found a good 3d audio engine. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi tom.

Glad to here about the analogue system, but I do take the point regarding 
pitch only going so far, however there is another fact to considder, namely 
that of necessary information.


I do not have a wide field of vision, and need to sit fairly close to the tv 
in order to see anything of a game like marrio, so I am not able to see the 
hole screen at once.


yet, this isn't an obstacle to me playing sinse for all practical purposes 
the only relevant information is that immediately around my character.


So, to take the lava pit example, suppose you had a lava pit with several 
ledges in the middle of it meaning you need to do a number of jumps to get 
across.


having a hole bunch of dripping ledge sounds would doubtless be rather 
confusing for the player, however realistically, the only ledges the player 
needs to actually be focused on are those immediately left and right of 
his/her character.


Using this principle, you can have as many ledges or ropes as you want, ---  
especially when you've got a way of checking your coordinates or what room 
your in, without worry of causing confusion.


The last issue I can see with ledges in a platformer is showing their 
vertical position relative to the player.


there are two possibilities I can think of to do this.

1, altering the pitch of the dripping water sound according to vertical 
position,  though as you said this might be confusing.


or 2, having a look up and down command which instead of giving you some 
sort of vocal information, gives you a sound based idea of what is above or 
below you,  and based on the idea of only showing you necessary 
information, if you here a ledge above you you can jump there.


So, you get to the edge of a pit and here nothing. you hit look up and here 
a ldripping water ledge sound which shows you that there is a ledge you can 
jump to above and right.


The same principle could be used for hazards like spikes or flaimes, for 
instance having the look up command show you a bunch of spikes above you 
which will skewer you if you jump too high, or a look down command showing 
you a ledge below you that you can safely fall onto.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Philip.

this ai business sounds interesting certainly and I have seen occasions in 
mainstream games where certain enemies used tactics based on the players' 
actions and thus fought semi inteligently even going back to the nes era.


however, what I've tended to find in audio games is that the enemy's lack of 
interest isn't due to their tactics, so much as the games' essential lack of 
spacial dimention, and the fact that most audio game 2D enemies have one, 
and only one form of attack, namely hitting your character when he/she is 
close.


In a mainstream game though, the fact that a, the terrain and b, the spacial 
dimentions of the game are more in evidence means that even generic search 
and destroy enemies are far more interesting.


Take mario as an example. You have red cooper troopers which walk up and 
down on one ledge, and green ones which fall off ledges.


This means, if your standing underneath a ledge with a cooper trooper on it, 
you must take into account which sort it is and adjust your tactics 
accordingly, ie, if it is green, wait for it to fall and then either avoid 
or kill it, where as if it is red, you'll need to wait for it to move away 
from the edge of the ledge before jumping up to deal with it.


And this is even before we get onto subjects like firing bullits which may 
be jumped, ducked or only catch you while airborn, blocking your path, 
attacking in the air or on the ground, having some sort of shield against 
your attacks etc.


While the alteration of the ai sounds fun, I'd myself prefer to see some 
alteration in attacks to make fighting enemies more interesting.


This of course also goes right along with analogue jumps and altering 
distances, especially when your talking about enemies patrolling a certain 
area or firing in the air, --- -for instance having to time your jump across 
a pit when an enemy isn't shooting at you, or waiting for an enemy to 
retreat from across the other side of a pit before jumping over.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Dark,

The enemies, or creatures in this case since the ones I have so far are just 
animals, do not have multiple types of attacks. I can give my characters any 
type of weapon, however, and they will adjust their tactics based on how 
they are armed. If a character has a knife, for instance, he will try to get 
close to you for obvious reasons where as if he has a rifle, he might try to 
avoid you and fire from a distance. This is still considerably better than a 
game such as Q9, and is part of the artificial intelligence features I 
mentioned. I am not a great fan of all these multiple attack type senarios 
because they tend to confuse me a great deal trying to remember how to 
perform certain moves etc. That detracts just as much from the over-all 
gaming experience for me as solving mazes does.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Philip.

this ai business sounds interesting certainly and I have seen occasions in
mainstream games where certain enemies used tactics based on the players'
actions and thus fought semi inteligently even going back to the nes era.

however, what I've tended to find in audio games is that the enemy's lack of
interest isn't due to their tactics, so much as the games' essential lack of
spacial dimention, and the fact that most audio game 2D enemies have one,
and only one form of attack, namely hitting your character when he/she is
close.

In a mainstream game though, the fact that a, the terrain and b, the spacial
dimentions of the game are more in evidence means that even generic search
and destroy enemies are far more interesting.

Take mario as an example. You have red cooper troopers which walk up and
down on one ledge, and green ones which fall off ledges.

This means, if your standing underneath a ledge with a cooper trooper on it,
you must take into account which sort it is and adjust your tactics
accordingly, ie, if it is green, wait for it to fall and then either avoid
or kill it, where as if it is red, you'll need to wait for it to move away
from the edge of the ledge before jumping up to deal with it.

And this is even before we get onto subjects like firing bullits which may
be jumped, ducked or only catch you while airborn, blocking your path,
attacking in the air or on the ground, having some sort of shield against
your attacks etc.

While the alteration of the ai sounds fun, I'd myself prefer to see some
alteration in attacks to make fighting enemies more interesting.

This of course also goes right along with analogue jumps and altering
distances, especially when your talking about enemies patrolling a certain
area or firing in the air, --- -for instance having to time your jump across
a pit when an enemy isn't shooting at you, or waiting for an enemy to
retreat from across the other side of a pit before jumping over.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Ken the Crazy
Hey now--those are some pretty smart animals--knowing what type of weapon 
you have and what it does.  I hate to see how devilishly smart your people 
are!  Evil Grins

Ken Downey


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hey there,
To be honest I would have made it so you can shoot at your enemy with a gun 
if you were standing near it, since I don't know the mechanics of guns. I 
live in the UK and they are not allowed in our society and I've never really 
played around with any other weaponry. Grin.

Regards,
Damien.



- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Philip,

Wow! Glad to hear it. It sounds like you are taking a page out of my
playbook with the min and max range for weapons. That's something I
have had in Mysteries of the Ancients for a long time now, and it
definitely changes the strategy of the game somewhat. If you have a
shotgun you need to stand back at least three feet in order to bring
the barel up and shoot whatever it is you are trying to kill. Weapons
like daggers are close range weapons so you can walk right up to
whatever it is and stab it. I'm glad to see you have decided to take
this approach as I've often thought it was a bit unrealistic that some
games allow you to walk right up to an enemy and shoot them with a
rifle etc from less than a foot away etc.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:

Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
have a
very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as 
the
fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when 
you
begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch 
to
your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four 
or

five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of
weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a
minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit 
from

the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The
knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range
combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and
coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures 
in
the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. 
smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Tommy

Wow! Phil and Thomas making me looking forward to the release! I'm excited.

Tommy


- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

That is quite a number of interesting points you raised here. I happen
to agree with you on all points. In fact, this is in large part why
Mysteries of the Ancients beta 18 is taking so long to release. I
decided to go back in and rewrite some of the various game mechanics
such as jumping to resemble that of the classic NES era games where
the longer you hold down the jump button/keys the higher and further
the main character will jump. As you said this requires a lot more
skill and judgment of how long to hold down the buttons or keys before
releasing them.

As you know in beta 17 and earlier I had a very simple jump system in
place where all you needed to do is press control+left arrow or
control+right arrow and Angela would safely land on the other side of
the pit, chasm, fire, lava, whatever just about every time. However,
not only was that very easy it was also pretty boring. So what I did
is I completely redesigned the jump mechanics to be more like classic
NES games like Super Mario where you now have to time your jumps in
order to make it safely to the other side of a trap. there have been a
number of times where I have over estimated a jump or under estimated
the length of a jump and Angela ended up impailed on a bronze spike,
took a bath in hot boiling lava, or got roasted over a huge fire pit.

For instance, one of the traps in the game is a large lava pit with a
stone ledge hanging out over the middle of the pit. The trick to
getting over the lava pit is to jump from one side of the pit up onto
that hanging stone ledge, and jump from there to the other side of the
pit. As you might have guessed this takes perfect timing and percision
to do it correctly. If you misjudge the length of the jump Angela is
going to have a very hot bath in lava. If you don't jump far enough
Angela will not reach the ledge and fall into the lava. If you hold
down the keys too long she'll jump over the stone ledge and land in
the lava anyway. The key to successfully making it is listening very
carefully to the drip, drip, drip, of the water dripping off that
ledge and judge your jump as best as you can. This way insures you use
both some skill and personal judgement to figure out how far and
howlong to jump rather than Angela just landing on that ledge as soon
as she is close to it as the game use to.

So what you are suggesting here is very possible. I've been practicing
with some of these ideas you suggested in beta 18, and I think it
would be cool if more games started doing this as well. It makes
jumping far more tricky and takes practice to get just right. I've
learned from my own experience with MOTA beta 18 you won't get it
right your first try in a lot of cases.

As far as changing pitch of pits and stuff that's another good idea. I
should probably put that down in my things to do list for beta 18. You
have a point that the deeper the sound of the pit the larger the pit.
The higher the sound the smaller it is and you should be able to
determine its size by pitch alone rather than just using a look/view
command to gather that information all the time.

Cheers!


On 3/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

Hi Phil.

i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for
over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over
complicating the situation more than it would need to be.

As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the 
pitch
of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the 
edge

(to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind
sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit
which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind.

A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running
given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge 
of a

pit,  heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run
button perminantly held anyway.

As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are 
a

perfect example of this.

Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she 
has
to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that 
many

audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they
did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating
their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by
working on a basic stimulous response model.

Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be
part of the experience.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Philip,

Well, all I can say is you are right. Good high quality artificial
intelligence is something that has been sorely lacking in most audio
games to date. Of course, how advanced the artificial intelligence
needs to be is dependant on the style of game in question

For example, in Final Conflict I did my best to create a safisticated
set of artificial intelligence for each of the enemy ships in the
game. While the artificial intelligence in 1.x was decent that's
something I plan on totally revising in 2.0 simply because the enemy
attacks were uncoordinated, and it was too easy to basically split up
the main battle group and pick them off one by one using superior
firepower.  If you could get the enemy battle group near one of your
fully equipped and fully armed starbases the enemy fleet was toast. So
even I admit while the artificial intelligence for that game was a
good stab at a strategy game there were plenty of things that could
have been done better.

As for side-scrollers I admit to falling into the seak and destroy
artificial intelligencetrap too. I suppose in a game like Mysteries of
the Ancients where only one enemy is in a room at a time the walk left
or walk right and attack player simple artificial intelligence works
fine, but is boring like you say. I think what you are doing with the
bores fighting eatch other, having a couple of monkeys fighting each
other, etc is a much more realistic artificial intelligence system,
and would be a lot more enjoyable over all.

Something I haven't done yet myself, but I've been thinking of is
having enemies have the ability to block as well as attack. For
instance, the Zombie Warriors are equipped with swords and bronze
shields. Logic would dictate they would be able to block swords,
spear, and dagger attacks at least some of the time. That would make
the fighting much more realistic and complex because the enemies would
both block and attack when fighting. Using a bronze shield to deflect
a pistol shot etc isn't out of the question either wwhich would make
combat much more interesting.


Cheers!


On 3/17/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote:
 Hi Thomas,

 Ah, that is good. I misunderstood the message.

 Another topic which I think deserves some consideration and which I have
 been spending a lot of time on myself, is artificial intelligence. In a lot
 of sidescrollers the enemies are very generic. If player left, walk left. if
 player right, walk right. If player within range, fire. This bores me, and
 so I am really trying to step outside the box in this regard. My enemies
 employ proper pathfinding, and make intelligent decisions based on their
 surroundings and if they are being attacked etc. For instance, I had a
 chimpanzee who got angry with me, not because I hurt him but because I fired
 a shot near him and that made him take a strange dislike to me. So he chased
 me across half the jungle, even up into a tree where I fortunately managed
 to knock him down from the branch so that he went crashing onto the ground.
 After that, he got frightened and ran away from me. This sort of thing is as
 far from Q9 as you can get, where the enemies just move towards the player
 and attack. The creatures in my jungle actually interact with each other as
 well, not just with the player. It is particularly enjoyable listening to
 two boars fighting it out, or hearing a chimpanzee knock a little monkey
 down from a branch 16 feet up in the air.

 What I am trying to say is that AI really made a difference in the case of
 my game. A lot of people won't notice all the stuff I have spent time on,
 but the over-all feel of the characters is a lot more realistic one than the
 dumb search and destroy mentality that is implemented for the enemies in
 other similar games. What are your thoughts on this?

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Well, what Philip and i are talking about isn't so much the mechanics
of guns, but simple logistics when firing them. If you have a shotgun
or rifle three feet long there is no way on earth you can point it at
a target one feet away because there is not enough room between you
and the target to aim the barel at it. However, if you have something
small like a .38 pistol, then you can walk right up to the enemy and
pop a few rounds into it because that is a very small handgun. I would
think that something like this would be common sense since you would
have to account for the size and length of the gun in question.

And while I'm on the subject this applies in general to any weapon. If
you have a four foot long broadsword you have to have a good three or
four feet between you and the enemy just to account for the length of
the blade.That is not even considering the length of your arms that
adds a couple of extra feet to  your maximum striking range. It is
these details that Philip and I feel are lacking in accessible games
probably because game developers just don't stop to think about them
that much, or they just don't know any different.

Cheers!


On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hey there,
 To be honest I would have made it so you can shoot at your enemy with a gun
 if you were standing near it, since I don't know the mechanics of guns. I
 live in the UK and they are not allowed in our society and I've never really
 played around with any other weaponry. Grin.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

Hmmm...If I take your meaning correctly you are sort of thinking of a
sonar system similar to Monkey Business? You know how it makes a sound
when it hits a wall, door, ledge, etc and you can identify what Smith
is looking at by the type of sound returned. Is that kind of what you
are thinking?

On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi tom.

 Glad to here about the analogue system, but I do take the point regarding
 pitch only going so far, however there is another fact to considder, namely
 that of necessary information.

 I do not have a wide field of vision, and need to sit fairly close to the tv
 in order to see anything of a game like marrio, so I am not able to see the
 hole screen at once.

 yet, this isn't an obstacle to me playing sinse for all practical purposes
 the only relevant information is that immediately around my character.

 So, to take the lava pit example, suppose you had a lava pit with several
 ledges in the middle of it meaning you need to do a number of jumps to get
 across.

 having a hole bunch of dripping ledge sounds would doubtless be rather
 confusing for the player, however realistically, the only ledges the player
 needs to actually be focused on are those immediately left and right of
 his/her character.

 Using this principle, you can have as many ledges or ropes as you want, ---
 especially when you've got a way of checking your coordinates or what room
 your in, without worry of causing confusion.

 The last issue I can see with ledges in a platformer is showing their
 vertical position relative to the player.

 there are two possibilities I can think of to do this.

 1, altering the pitch of the dripping water sound according to vertical
 position,  though as you said this might be confusing.

 or 2, having a look up and down command which instead of giving you some
 sort of vocal information, gives you a sound based idea of what is above or
 below you,  and based on the idea of only showing you necessary
 information, if you here a ledge above you you can jump there.

 So, you get to the edge of a pit and here nothing. you hit look up and here
 a ldripping water ledge sound which shows you that there is a ledge you can
 jump to above and right.

 The same principle could be used for hazards like spikes or flaimes, for
 instance having the look up command show you a bunch of spikes above you
 which will skewer you if you jump too high, or a look down command showing
 you a ledge below you that you can safely fall onto.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ken,

that's a big part of the problem though. Most VI gamers frankly don't
have the right hardware/software to do 3d audio properly. I know
XAudio2 is pretty good if you have a 5.1 surround sound set of
headphones and/or speakers, but there we go looking at $99 or more
just to obtain some hardware to reproduce the 3d audio properly.
That's assuming they have a 5.1 or 7.1 sound card already.

Cheers!


On 3/17/11, Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 You can also use 3d audio to let you know if things are above or below you,
 though you'll have to find something better the Directx for that.  There is
 a program called AM3D that is wonderful, being the same one used in the
 Blind Eye--but you don't really get a feel for how awesome it is by playing
 that.  What you'd really have to do is play with the Diesel engine--and when
 you've got the helicopter directly under your chin, and you feel the need to
 itch your throat, you know you've found a good 3d audio engine.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi  Dark,

Oh, you noticed? Super Mario Brothers is exactly where I got the idea
for the lava pit from. Although, it doesn't appear in the demo since
the demo only goes to level 2. However, there are a number of
side-scrollers out there that have this style of jump onto a distant
ledge, then use that ledge to jump safely to the other side etc.

One of the more interesting twists on this theme is found in Tomb
Raider Angel of Darkness. There is this room filled with lava from
wall to wall, and there is a fire crystal on the far side of the room
Lara has to retreave. The only way to get the fire crystal is to jump
onto stones sticking up out of the lava. Obviously, there is way too
much risk of over jumping a stone or simply not jumping far enough
sending Lara screaming to her death in the lava below. What makes this
trap especially evil is once Lara lands on a stone it begins sinking
into the lava, and she can't use it again to get back out of the room.
So not only do you have to guess the jumps correctly you need to make
sure to plot a course that leaves enough stones left above the lava to
use to get back out again. I'd love to eventually come up with a
trap/puzzle that rivals something like that. Lol!

Anyway, I agree that we need more games where the player has to use
his her judgement to get passed certain traps rather than just
reacting to this or that all the time. I've found with Mysteries of
the Ancients that once a person discovers how to lower a bridge it is
no longer a trap or problem any more. However, what makes a large
chasm a real problem is if you have to do a running jump to cross one,
because then you have to use some skill and judgement to time the jump
just right rather than pulling a lever and getting a handy bridge.

Cheers!






On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava ledge
 jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser
 castle in the first mario brothers.

 I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this.

 As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's difficulty
 comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too many
 things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more
 satisfying to get through.

 Beware the grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread shaun everiss
well I think pitches with tones, success bells and falier buzzes or 
whatever could work.

if a game is arcade then you should have sfx of that machine for things.
At 01:30 a.m. 17/03/2011, you wrote:

Hi Philip.

I do agree that relying entirely upon numeric look commands is not 
good, that's why I think more could be done with pitch as an 
indicator, either bying having relative wind sounds, or altering the 
sound denoting a certain ledge or obstacle according to it's distance.


A look key might be a useful backup while the player is learning the 
relative significance of sound, but once the player has a litle 
practice it hopefully would be unnecessary.


Though the view and context is very different, this was also my 
thinking when I suggested the wind sounds in entombed to denote 
space around the player, which does seem to have worked successfully.


This is in fact what I did myself with shades of doom, I used to use 
the look commands constantly with the eva set on super verbose, but 
then I turned the setting down and finally didn't use it at all.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Philip.

I'm afraid as an exploration fan and a fan of diverse enemies I myself would 
rather like more attacks to avoid, giving each enemy something unique and 
making something new for the player to adjust to in each level, then again I 
also enjoy large areas to explore as well.


Certainly your ai does sound incredibly unique and also it sounds as if 
tactics will be needed such as waiting until enemies have finished each 
other off or leading one creature to another in hopes of initiating a fight.


I'll be interested to see how this one works out.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

oh come on, you can deffinately aime at a targit in front of you with a 
three foot rifle,  you just need extremly bendy elbows!


yes I can see it now, the new super heroe,  Yoga man, no position too 
complex, no contortion too hard, villains will bend to his superior double 
jointedness ;D.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

no, that isn't actually what I was thinking at all.

imagine a system of coordinates, and you are on a ledge at 3-2, but here 
nothing to the right of you, just a long pit.


However, if you activate the look up command, instead of hereing just that 
pit to the right of you, you will here the normal ledge sound of a ledge at 
4-3, directly above and to the right of your current position.


The sound of the ledge does not change in pitch, but you know it is there 
sinse you have activated the look up function, and can therefore jump up and 
to the right.


The same could be true if there was a ledge at 4-1, just below your position 
if you activated look down.


This would let you build more complex jumping structures such as those found 
in games like mega man and marrio showing what is above and below the 
character rather than what is just immediately to the right or left of them 
or having to rely upon pitch.




Another way of thinking about it might be that in looking up you are 
virtually changing your characters position, pretending that he/she is at 
coordinates 4-2 instead of 3-2, thus allowing you to here what is up there 
to the right and left.


This is a similar concept to the idea of scrolling the screen with look 
commands. i can't recall if any nes era games did this, though quite a few 
snes and mega drive ones such as super starwars and micky mouse castle of 
illusion certainly did.


It just strikes me this is a way to get more mileage out of 2D sterrio sound 
and a better way to show what is above and below your character.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

Funnily enough there is a very similar 2D version of that style of puzle in 
junk man's stage in MEga man 7 for the Snes, where using one of Mega man's 
weapons can cause metal bricks to fall down from the cieling into a pit of 
liquid metal. Only problem is, they start sinking so you need to be fairly 
sparing with that particular weapon.


I'll certainly be interested to see more of these sorts of things in audio.

Beware the grue!

dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Thomas Ward
HI Dark,

Oh, I see. As it happens MOTA does have a look up/down feature, but it
was disabled prior to beta 18. The problem I have with your idea is
that as you climb up/down ropes you actually need to here where the
dripping ledges are in relation to you as you climb. IN a case like
that looking up/down to find out where the ledges are would not be too
cool. The best compromise in a case like that is to increase the pitch
of the water dripping the higher it is from you and decrease the pitch
the further below you it is. this would work for the lava pit idea as
well because if it is a high pitch drip you would realise that the
ledge is above and to the left without having to use any look commands
in the first place.


Another case where the look up/down wouldn't work as you describe it
has to do with enemies. For example, the harpies are a flying enemy.
Regardless if they are flying above, below, or at the same level as
you you should be able to hear there location at all times. Having
them only make noise when you happen to be looking the right way would
not be too cool. Claw, swish, scratch. Ouch! What was that? Oh, just
a harpy flying above me I didn't hear.


Cheers!


On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 no, that isn't actually what I was thinking at all.

 imagine a system of coordinates, and you are on a ledge at 3-2, but here
 nothing to the right of you, just a long pit.

 However, if you activate the look up command, instead of hereing just that
 pit to the right of you, you will here the normal ledge sound of a ledge at
 4-3, directly above and to the right of your current position.

 The sound of the ledge does not change in pitch, but you know it is there
 sinse you have activated the look up function, and can therefore jump up and
 to the right.

 The same could be true if there was a ledge at 4-1, just below your position
 if you activated look down.

 This would let you build more complex jumping structures such as those found
 in games like mega man and marrio showing what is above and below the
 character rather than what is just immediately to the right or left of them
 or having to rely upon pitch.



 Another way of thinking about it might be that in looking up you are
 virtually changing your characters position, pretending that he/she is at
 coordinates 4-2 instead of 3-2, thus allowing you to here what is up there
 to the right and left.

 This is a similar concept to the idea of scrolling the screen with look
 commands. i can't recall if any nes era games did this, though quite a few
 snes and mega drive ones such as super starwars and micky mouse castle of
 illusion certainly did.

 It just strikes me this is a way to get more mileage out of 2D sterrio sound
 and a better way to show what is above and below your character.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Thomas,
To be honest I didn't. As pretty much a beginner in audio games, only seeing 
the basics in them, that is the only thing I know. True, I could have 
perhaps thought better about what other in-game characters might do, but 
since I have only seen a search and destroy tactic, that's all I have ever 
attempted programming. Again, perhaps with different weaponry, I could have 
tried my imagination at, but in all honesty I don't know anything about 
weapons except they are used for fighting. Different lengths, mechanics and 
attack strategies would have never crossed my mind. For all I knew, guns 
were something you fired by pulling a trigger. I wouldn't have known if a 
gun was pocket size or the size of, say, a javelin.

Regards,
Damien.




- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Damien,

Well, what Philip and i are talking about isn't so much the mechanics
of guns, but simple logistics when firing them. If you have a shotgun
or rifle three feet long there is no way on earth you can point it at
a target one feet away because there is not enough room between you
and the target to aim the barel at it. However, if you have something
small like a .38 pistol, then you can walk right up to the enemy and
pop a few rounds into it because that is a very small handgun. I would
think that something like this would be common sense since you would
have to account for the size and length of the gun in question.

And while I'm on the subject this applies in general to any weapon. If
you have a four foot long broadsword you have to have a good three or
four feet between you and the enemy just to account for the length of
the blade.That is not even considering the length of your arms that
adds a couple of extra feet to  your maximum striking range. It is
these details that Philip and I feel are lacking in accessible games
probably because game developers just don't stop to think about them
that much, or they just don't know any different.

Cheers!


On 3/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:

Hey there,
To be honest I would have made it so you can shoot at your enemy with a 
gun

if you were standing near it, since I don't know the mechanics of guns. I
live in the UK and they are not allowed in our society and I've never 
really

played around with any other weaponry. Grin.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Thomas,
Oh wow! Now we're really looking into advanced concepts here! I expect it 
would feel just about as complicated to a newby gamer to play it as it would 
be for somebody to program it. Grin.
I hope I can do it and look forward to seeing some of it. I'm not really a 
hardcore gamer but this will probably turn things around for me as far as 
gaming goes.

Regards,
Damien.



- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi  Dark,

Oh, you noticed? Super Mario Brothers is exactly where I got the idea
for the lava pit from. Although, it doesn't appear in the demo since
the demo only goes to level 2. However, there are a number of
side-scrollers out there that have this style of jump onto a distant
ledge, then use that ledge to jump safely to the other side etc.

One of the more interesting twists on this theme is found in Tomb
Raider Angel of Darkness. There is this room filled with lava from
wall to wall, and there is a fire crystal on the far side of the room
Lara has to retreave. The only way to get the fire crystal is to jump
onto stones sticking up out of the lava. Obviously, there is way too
much risk of over jumping a stone or simply not jumping far enough
sending Lara screaming to her death in the lava below. What makes this
trap especially evil is once Lara lands on a stone it begins sinking
into the lava, and she can't use it again to get back out of the room.
So not only do you have to guess the jumps correctly you need to make
sure to plot a course that leaves enough stones left above the lava to
use to get back out again. I'd love to eventually come up with a
trap/puzzle that rivals something like that. Lol!

Anyway, I agree that we need more games where the player has to use
his her judgement to get passed certain traps rather than just
reacting to this or that all the time. I've found with Mysteries of
the Ancients that once a person discovers how to lower a bridge it is
no longer a trap or problem any more. However, what makes a large
chasm a real problem is if you have to do a running jump to cross one,
because then you have to use some skill and judgement to time the jump
just right rather than pulling a lever and getting a handy bridge.

Cheers!






On 3/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

Hi Tom.

Fantastic that a game is finally implementing this, in fact the lava 
ledge

jumping you describe very much resembles a section from the first bowser
castle in the first mario brothers.

I'll deffinately be looking forward to trying this.

As to difficulty, it'll be really nice to see an audio game who's 
difficulty
comes from a player's judgement, rather than by simply sticking in too 
many

things for the player to react to. Imho those sort of games are far more
satisfying to get through.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

that is true regarding ropes, though with the harpies example I was going on 
the basis that something flying above you is not at the same level as you 
and thus cannot attack unless it's dropping bombs or similar.


At the moment, for all gameplay purposes the harpies seem to be on the same 
horizontal plane as yourself as far as attacks and defense is concerned, and 
they only seem to attack horrizontally too,  though if your changing 
this fair enough.


I do however think the pitch idea is quite possible, and could be used to 
show more complex ledge configurations requiring more work from he player to 
get around.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread darren harris
Hi dark.

I have read this with interest. I never quite thought about it in the way
you have described.

The thing is though I'm not entirely sure how you would get around that in
an audio medium. Visually you can judge when you jump and how high you jump.
But without adding extra sound into the mix which could have an impact on
the environment of the game then I don't quite know how 1 would go about
working round this. For example, take an action game, it wouldn't be
possible always to stop, hear a description of how far you would have to
jump to x point so then be able to make that judgement. You would have to
run and jump.

I think that when it comes to audio only games the challenges would have to
be significantly different to that of a game that deals with both audio and
visual input. For example, you may not have to worry about how far you have
to jump, but when you get to the other side, you could be attacked without
warning that's certainly feasible. 

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of dark
Sent: 16 March 2011 11:20
To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Hi. 

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I
could play my snes again. 

This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as Mario
all stars and Super metroid. 

By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been replaying
several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball
xtreme tables and alien outback. 

The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I used
to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much to
get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been
through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have
really! deteriorated. 

I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with the
answer. 

Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put together
ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player
with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more
quickly and correctly. 

Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it. 

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of circumstances
the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen for
which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the
players' responses.

Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn and
respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more
randomized factors on top. 

At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9
undoubtedly take it a lot further. 

The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer
of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt
responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed.

A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity of
a players response. 

yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, but
these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the player
to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement which
can be renewed. 

For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to press
jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the distance
you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump button, b, how
fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you jump from. 

Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump
your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for instance
jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if your not
careful. 

I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more difficult
to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of more
involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as their
reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is above or
below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing more could
be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of altering the
characters' movement and physics so as to be more complex. 

Of course, some audio games do have more complex mechanics to take into
account such as the first person games like Shades of doom and Jim's golf
game. 

But it does seem that we have rather too many games which go on the basic
principle of here x, give response y, rather 

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread dark

Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the 
head.


You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's 
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.


However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely 
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round 
it, rather than there being a set way.


For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump 
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.


While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work 
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits 
to making addictive games are hugely worth it.


To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must 
defend yourself the instance after.


or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either 
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.


the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just 
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a 
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that 
attack once your across the pit.


The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to 
take into account the environment around you.


I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of 
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of 
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before 
engagin in attacks with them.


Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style 
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by 
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a 
button not merely pressing it.


This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just 
rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a 
very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the 
fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you 
begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to 
your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or 
five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of 
weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a 
minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from 
the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The 
knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range 
combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and 
coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in 
the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits
to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that
attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just
rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Phil Vlasak

Hi Dark,
I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump.
For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a 
standing  stop at the edge.

But you could jump it if your were running.
This would require an auto run feature  so you don't have to hit a key to 
move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound 
that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge.

Then a jump key to hit when the time is right.
This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely.
So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful.
For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is 
eight feet wide.

You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop.
So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in 
the pit.
The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 
foot.
A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you 
would not get killed if you did not get across.
Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your 
weapon.
There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you 
jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage 
if you over-jumped.

Phil

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned 
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a 
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I 
could play my snes again.


This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as 
Mario all stars and Super metroid.


By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been 
replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp 
pinball xtreme tables and alien outback.


The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I 
used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice 
much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game 
I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my 
skills have really! deteriorated.


I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with 
the answer.


Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in 
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put 
together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting 
the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to 
more and more quickly and correctly.


Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it.

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of 
circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of 
ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or 
complexity of the players' responses.


Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn 
and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more 
randomized factors on top.


At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 
undoubtedly take it a lot further.


The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt 
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer 
of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt 
responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed.


A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity 
of a players response.


yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, 
but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the 
player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that 
judgement which can be renewed.


For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to 
press jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the 
distance you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump 
button, b, how fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you 
jump from.


Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump 
your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for 
instance jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if 
your not careful.


I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more 
difficult to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of 
more involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as 
their reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is 
above or below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing 
more could be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of 
altering the 

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread dark

Hi Philip.

these are actually some of the ideas I was very much thinking of, especially 
the business about running.


I'll be interested to try this one when it's ready.

All the best,

Dark. 



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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Phil,

I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the 
feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide or 
that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. It 
has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know what 
I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather than 
speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For example I 
was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game as I feel 
that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended up including 
it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell you exactly 
where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but rather a method 
that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally of the opinion that 
an in game menu that stops the action in an atmospheric adventure title is 
the worst possible thing that could happen tot he over-all experience. Any 
thoughts?


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Dark,
I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump.
For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a
standing  stop at the edge.
But you could jump it if your were running.
This would require an auto run feature  so you don't have to hit a key to
move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound
that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge.
Then a jump key to hit when the time is right.
This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely.
So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful.
For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it is
eight feet wide.
You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop.
So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up in
the pit.
The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1
foot.
A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so you
would not get killed if you did not get across.
Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your
weapon.
There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if you
jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some damage
if you over-jumped.
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I
could play my snes again.

This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as
Mario all stars and Super metroid.

By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been
replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp
pinball xtreme tables and alien outback.

The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I
used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice
much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game
I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my
skills have really! deteriorated.

I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with
the answer.

Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put
together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting
the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to
more and more quickly and correctly.

Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it.

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of
circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of
ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or
complexity of the players' responses.

Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn
and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more
randomized factors on top.

At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9
undoubtedly take it a lot further.

The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer
of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt
responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed.

A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity
of a players response.

yes, the player may have to respond quickly

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread dark

Hi Phil.

i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for 
over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over 
complicating the situation more than it would need to be.


As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch 
of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge 
(to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind 
sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit 
which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind.


A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running 
given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of a 
pit,  heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run 
button perminantly held anyway.


As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are a 
perfect example of this.


Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has 
to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that many 
audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if they 
did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by calculating 
their characters movement according to the environment, rather than by 
working on a basic stimulous response model.


Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be 
part of the experience.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread dark

Hi Philip.

I do agree that relying entirely upon numeric look commands is not good, 
that's why I think more could be done with pitch as an indicator, either 
bying having relative wind sounds, or altering the sound denoting a certain 
ledge or obstacle according to it's distance.


A look key might be a useful backup while the player is learning the 
relative significance of sound, but once the player has a litle practice it 
hopefully would be unnecessary.


Though the view and context is very different, this was also my thinking 
when I suggested the wind sounds in entombed to denote space around the 
player, which does seem to have worked successfully.


This is in fact what I did myself with shades of doom, I used to use the 
look commands constantly with the eva set on super verbose, but then I 
turned the setting down and finally didn't use it at all.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Phil Vlasak

Hi Philip,
I think the chasms or pits could have different sounds indicating how wide 
they are.

A constant whoosh sound could be a small pit you could easily jump over.
a whoosh whoosh sound sounding and stopping in a loop could be one you would 
have to take a running jump to get over.
And a whoosh sound that rises and lowers in pitch could be one you would 
need help, either by finding another way or lowering a bridge or swinging 
over on a vine.


These different pit sounds could be described in a sound help feature.
As for feedback on your jump.
That might only happen if you missed the jump, sort of a coach telling you 
that you missed the edge short one foot or long two feet.
Either way you would would be injured and stopped from moving long enough to 
catch your breath or take a healing potion.
Or you could have a training level that would give you verbal feedback if 
you need it but shut up if you don't need it.

Phil

- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Phil,

I like this idea, but the thing that springs to mind immediately is the 
feedback you mention. Having a voice telling me that a pit is 8 feet wide 
or that I jumped 7 feet would kill the atmosphere very effectively for me. 
It has blind accessible audio game written all over its face, if you know 
what I mean. If one could design it so that there is just auditory rather 
than speech feedback, I think that would be a very different thing. For 
example I was opposed to including a looking feature in my upcoming game 
as I feel that it spoils the atmosphere in a similar fashion, but I ended 
up including it in the end because I could think of no other way to tell 
you exactly where branches are for example. I did not use a menu, but 
rather a method that does not interrupt the game play as I am personally 
of the opinion that an in game menu that stops the action in an 
atmospheric adventure title is the worst possible thing that could happen 
tot he over-all experience. Any thoughts?


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hi Dark,
I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump.
For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a
standing  stop at the edge.
But you could jump it if your were running.
This would require an auto run feature  so you don't have to hit a key to
move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound
that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge.
Then a jump key to hit when the time is right.
This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely.
So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful.
For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it 
is

eight feet wide.
You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop.
So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up 
in

the pit.
The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1
foot.
A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so 
you

would not get killed if you did not get across.
Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your
weapon.
There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if 
you
jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some 
damage

if you over-jumped.
Phil

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I
could play my snes again.

This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as
Mario all stars and Super metroid.

By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been
replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the 
esp

pinball xtreme tables and alien outback.

The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I
used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice
much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game
I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my
skills have really! deteriorated.

I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with
the answer.

Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put
together ones like Q9

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
Yep, that's why I don't play too many games anymore.  It's too much like 
playing Bopit.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned 
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a 
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I 
could play my snes again.


This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as 
Mario all stars and Super metroid.


By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been 
replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp 
pinball xtreme tables and alien outback.


The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I 
used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice 
much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game 
I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my 
skills have really! deteriorated.


I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with 
the answer.


Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in 
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put 
together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting 
the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to 
more and more quickly and correctly.


Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it.

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of 
circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of 
ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or 
complexity of the players' responses.


Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn 
and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more 
randomized factors on top.


At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 
undoubtedly take it a lot further.


The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt 
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer 
of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt 
responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed.


A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity 
of a players response.


yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, 
but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the 
player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that 
judgement which can be renewed.


For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to 
press jump and hit the right arrow enough times. In marrio however, the 
distance you jump is controled by a, how long you hold down the jump 
button, b, how fast your running when you begin the jump, and c, where you 
jump from.


Then, there is the question of landing, sinse if you land from a long jump 
your stopping distance will not be immediate, meaning you might for 
instance jump a pit but slide streight into a monster just afterwards if 
your not careful.


I think part of this difference is due to the fact that it's more 
difficult to show multiple objects in sound, and thus develope the sort of 
more involved physics which requires the players' judgement as well as 
their reflexes, however while showing information (paticularly what is 
above or below your character), could be difficult, i do certainly thing 
more could be done than currently exists, especially in the matter of 
altering the characters' movement and physics so as to be more complex.


Of course, some audio games do have more complex mechanics to take into 
account such as the first person games like Shades of doom and Jim's golf 
game.


But it does seem that we have rather too many games which go on the basic 
principle of here x, give response y, rather than considdering the physics 
and operation of in game objects.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
What about a practice mode that kicks in when you die?  Let's say you're at 
the edge of a pit, you jump it but run into a monster.  Instead of dying, 
you get a redo.  You again find yourself at the edge of the pit, jumping. 
You can't slow down--you're already in the air, so what do you do?  Maybe 
you start shooting or kicking as soon as you land, or maybe you pivot your 
feet so you take off in a new direction.  I know that when I play Audio 
Quake, (the episodes not the death matches,) I have to learn a particular 
area by practice.  Yeah, this is sounding more and more like the same as 
before, huh?

It's just ore and more of the same as before,
I said, Gotta get to the cool new games store.
they've got hard-core action
and puzzles galore,
but till then it'll be just like before!
Oh man, I must be tired.
Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com

To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi dark.

I have read this with interest. I never quite thought about it in the way
you have described.

The thing is though I'm not entirely sure how you would get around that in
an audio medium. Visually you can judge when you jump and how high you 
jump.

But without adding extra sound into the mix which could have an impact on
the environment of the game then I don't quite know how 1 would go about
working round this. For example, take an action game, it wouldn't be
possible always to stop, hear a description of how far you would have to
jump to x point so then be able to make that judgement. You would have to
run and jump.

I think that when it comes to audio only games the challenges would have 
to
be significantly different to that of a game that deals with both audio 
and
visual input. For example, you may not have to worry about how far you 
have

to jump, but when you get to the other side, you could be attacked without
warning that's certainly feasible.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of dark
Sent: 16 March 2011 11:20
To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I
could play my snes again.

This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as 
Mario

all stars and Super metroid.

By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been 
replaying

several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the esp pinball
xtreme tables and alien outback.

The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I 
used
to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice much 
to

get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game I've been
through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my skills have
really! deteriorated.

I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with 
the

answer.

Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put 
together

ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting the player
with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to more and more
quickly and correctly.

Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it.

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of 
circumstances
the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of ships to listen 
for

which move differently, and b, increasing the speed or complexity of the
players' responses.

Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn 
and

respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more
randomized factors on top.

At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9
undoubtedly take it a lot further.

The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no longer
of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially learnt
responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as needed.

A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity 
of

a players response.

yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, 
but
these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the 
player
to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes, and it is that judgement 
which

can be renewed.

For instance, in Q9, when you come to a pit, it's simply necessary to 
press

jump and hit the right arrow

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy

Hey Philip,
how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the 
type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps?

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have 
a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as 
the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, 
when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately 
switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, 
after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded 
the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum 
but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back 
off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for 
the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for 
close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming 
experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence 
of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product 
than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
merely

presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
bennifits

to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be 
a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
that

attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
just

rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
Another thing I've mentioned before is that walls, pits and so on could have 
echoes, just like in the real world, but exaggerated somewhat so as to be 
more audible.  If you hear an echo a quarter second after you make a 
sound--such as take a step, you'd know you were about 250 feet away.  You 
wouldn't calculate it mathematically after a while, you 'd just know. 
Reverb could be applied to certain areas too--the bathroom reverb for a pit 
for instance.  I actually think a controlled flange might be easier to use 
than trying to manipulate echoes, but I don't know.  That is why the big 
boys are out programming games, and the rest of us are just throwing ideas 
at y'all.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,
I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump.
For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a 
standing  stop at the edge.

But you could jump it if your were running.
This would require an auto run feature  so you don't have to hit a key to 
move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a sound 
that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge.

Then a jump key to hit when the time is right.
This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely.
So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful.
For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it 
is eight feet wide.

You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop.
So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up 
in the pit.
The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 1 
foot.
A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so 
you would not get killed if you did not get across.
Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your 
weapon.
There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if 
you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some 
damage if you over-jumped.

Phil

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I turned 
off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv requires a 
visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it so that I 
could play my snes again.


This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as 
Mario all stars and Super metroid.


By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been 
replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the 
esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback.


The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I 
used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to practice 
much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is a game 
I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've found my 
skills have really! deteriorated.


I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with 
the answer.


Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in 
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put 
together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting 
the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to 
more and more quickly and correctly.


Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it.

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of 
circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of 
ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed 
or complexity of the players' responses.


Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn 
and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more 
randomized factors on top.


At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 
undoubtedly take it a lot further.


The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt 
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no 
longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially 
learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as 
needed.


A game like Marrio however, does not just rely on the speed or complexity 
of a players response.


yes, the player may have to respond quickly or in a prescribed fashion, 
but these responses are tied to a set of game mechanics which require the 
player to use judgement as well as learnt reflexes

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Tommy
On the Q9. That would be cool that you could unlock more characters  each 
one of them have different story. That's would be awesome!


Tommy


- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have 
a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as 
the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, 
when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately 
switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, 
after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded 
the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum 
but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back 
off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for 
the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for 
close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming 
experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence 
of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product 
than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
merely

presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
bennifits

to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be 
a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
that

attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
just

rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
Well, having any kind of standard boundary is not necessarily good.  A 
character already weakened and near death is not going to jump a wide pit 
from two steps away.  He'll need to get right up on the edge to jump, since 
his strength is waning.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Phil.

i agree this would be a good thing (though the business about damage for 
over jumping seems unnecessarily harsh to me), but I think your over 
complicating the situation more than it would need to be.


As I said, the relative width of pits could be shown by altering the pitch 
of the sound. Say for instance a pit you could jump normally from the edge 
(to use your example a five foot or less), would have a high pitched wind 
sound, a pit which was jumpalbe with a long jump has a medium, and a pit 
which was not jumpable at all has a low ominous wind.


A standard two step boundry would be more than enough even when running 
given the speed of character movement to tell you when your on the edge of 
a pit,  heck, many people like myself play games like Q9 with the run 
button perminantly held anyway.


As for jump hight relative to button pressing, well rail racers' jets are 
a perfect example of this.


Of course, the player would need to practice and learn how long he/she has 
to hold the button for a given jump, but that is in fact my point, that 
many audio games would be considderably more addictive and interesting if 
they did! give the player a skill and form of jugement to learn by 
calculating their characters movement according to the environment, rather 
than by working on a basic stimulous response model.


Of course, starting easy (or non fatal), and getting harder would just be 
part of the experience.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
Not only that, but picture this scenario, that comes from the Over the Hedge 
game for the Nintendo DS.  I don't know the whole story, but you have to get 
a raccoon, a turtle and some other animal into a house to get 
food--something like that.  So you move all the animals toward the goal, but 
then there's a switch on the wall you need to hit to open the gate.  You try 
placing the turtle near the switch, having the fox or whatever stand on the 
turtle's back, then having the raccoon stand on the fox and hit the 
switch--but it just doesn't work.  Finally, in desperation, you become the 
fox, pick up the useless stupid turtle and throw it at the switch--and 
voila, the turtle hits it and the gate opens.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Tommy to...@sirinet.net
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


On the Q9. That would be cool that you could unlock more characters  each 
one of them have different story. That's would be awesome!


Tommy


- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, 
such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. 
Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not 
immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain 
momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have 
also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not 
only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, 
you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the 
same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other 
hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more 
dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved 
artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have 
a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the 
distance.


However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get 
round

it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
bennifits

to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must 
either

use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably 
be a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
that

attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities 
of

environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where 
by

your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
just

rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


---
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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Lori Duncan
Hi if it's better than q-9 then it'll be a knock out!  As long as it's got 
wepons Smile
- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have 
a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as 
the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, 
when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately 
switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, 
after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded 
the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum 
but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back 
off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for 
the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for 
close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming 
experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence 
of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product 
than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
merely

presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
bennifits

to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be 
a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
that

attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
just

rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


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All messages

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Ken,

You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing down 
the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few 
injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well 
stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world 
conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a 
fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain surfaces 
such as branches, however.


The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit 
myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use 
real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not 
possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including 
effects in my game.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hey Philip,
how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the
type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps?
Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have
a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as
the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also,
when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately
switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until,
after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded
the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum
but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back
off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for
the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for
close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming
experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence
of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product
than Q9 coming up. smile.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are
merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the
bennifits
to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be
a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting
that
attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm
just
rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Philip Bennefall

Hi Matheus,

As you say, I don't generally give release dates because public pressure is 
not something I want to deal with. When is it going to be out, how is it 
going etc are messages that drive me up the wall if I get them in multitude. 
I can say, however, that I am coming along very well and that it should not 
be terribly long before I am finished. My work is sped up considerably since 
I am now scripting in BGT rather than writing C++ code directly.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Matheus r.c. souza an...@bol.com.br

To: phi...@blastbay.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


hi philip. how's the developed of this new game? we haven't eard
anything since last year, i know that you don't like giving rlease dates
and stuff, but the game is almost complete, or it will still take a
while, like 6 months or so?
thanks, can't wait.

-Mensagem original-
De: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com
Para: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Data: Quarta, 16 de Março de 2011 13:07
Assunto: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have a
very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as the
fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, when you
begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately switch to
your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, after four or
five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded the concepts of
weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum but also a
minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back off a bit from
the target before you can fire, and the same is true for the spear. The
knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for close range
combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming experience, and
coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence of the creatures in
the game I am hoping to have a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message -
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the bennifits
to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting that
attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm just
rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


---
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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Lori Duncan
Hi Philip, also if your player is hurt would they not slow down because 
they're in pain or something?  You could get a health bonus then they spead 
back up again to normal.
- Original Message - 
From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hey Philip,
how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the 
type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps?

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, 
such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. 
Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not 
immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain 
momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have 
also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not 
only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, 
you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the 
same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other 
hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more 
dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved 
artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have 
a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the 
distance.


However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get 
round

it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
bennifits

to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must 
either

use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably 
be a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
that

attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities 
of

environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where 
by

your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
just

rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Lori Duncan
I like the one in q-9 when he goes hurrteling down to oblivian, it's a good 
efect.
- Original Message - 
From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Another thing I've mentioned before is that walls, pits and so on could 
have echoes, just like in the real world, but exaggerated somewhat so as 
to be more audible.  If you hear an echo a quarter second after you make a 
sound--such as take a step, you'd know you were about 250 feet away.  You 
wouldn't calculate it mathematically after a while, you 'd just know. 
Reverb could be applied to certain areas too--the bathroom reverb for a 
pit for instance.  I actually think a controlled flange might be easier to 
use than trying to manipulate echoes, but I don't know.  That is why the 
big boys are out programming games, and the rest of us are just throwing 
ideas at y'all.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,
I would like to play a game with a feature such as a running jump.
For example you have a chasm that is too wide to jump normally from a 
standing  stop at the edge.

But you could jump it if your were running.
This would require an auto run feature  so you don't have to hit a key to 
move plus the sound of the edge, preferably wider than one step or a 
sound that rises in pitch as you get closer to the edge.

Then a jump key to hit when the time is right.
This would take quite a lot of trial and error to get across safely.
So some feedback on how far you jumped would be helpful.
For example you walk to the side of a deep pit and the game says that it 
is eight feet wide.

You know that you can only jump 5 feet from a standing stop.
So you run and hit the jump key when you get to the edge, and you end up 
in the pit.
The game says you jumped 7 feet so you know you missed getting across by 
1 foot.
A good example of this would be a practice pit that was not too deep so 
you would not get killed if you did not get across.
Just like in MOTA the jump could only be successful if you holstered your 
weapon.
There could also be a timer on how long you held the jump key down so if 
you jumped 10 feet across an 8 foot gap, you would tumble or acquire some 
damage if you over-jumped.

Phil

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:20 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi.

My snes has been out of commission for the last few months sinse I 
turned off power to my tv and lost the tuning, and sinse tuning my tv 
requires a visual menue I had to wait for my dad to visit to rejigger it 
so that I could play my snes again.


This means I've been revisiting some of my favourite classics such as 
Mario all stars and Super metroid.


By a coincidence, sinse buying esp pinball classic, I've also been 
replaying several audiogames I haven't been on for a while such as the 
esp pinball xtreme tables and alien outback.


The funny thing is, I've found that while I can do almost as well as I 
used to at a game like Alien outback, and probably won't need to 
practice much to get back to where I was, even at super metroid which is 
a game I've been through up down and backwards innumerable times, i've 
found my skills have really! deteriorated.


I started to wonder why, this might be, and believe I have come up with 
the answer.


Sinse it is far harder to show a large amount of spacial information in 
sound, a lot of audio games,  even highly detailed and well put 
together ones like Q9 and alien outback, work essentially by presenting 
the player with sets of circumstances which the player must respond to 
more and more quickly and correctly.


Eg, you here a ship on the left, you fly over and shoot it.

These games increase difficulty by a, increasing the number of 
circumstances the player needs to be aware of, eg, different types of 
ships to listen for which move differently, and b, increasing the speed 
or complexity of the players' responses.


Pipe 2 is one of the best examples, by forcing the player to first learn 
and respond to the rythm of fitting pipes, then increasing more and more 
randomized factors on top.


At base this is a similar principle to simon, though games like Q9 
undoubtedly take it a lot further.


The drawback of such a system however, is that once a player has learnt 
response time, the response becomes entirely automatic, and thus no 
longer of challenge or interest, and, when replayed, those initially 
learnt responses are stil in the players' mind and can be recalled as 
needed.


A game like

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Lori Duncan
Yes, wish I knew what those demon things were saying, they sound like 
they're grumbeling about the lack of wages and long working hours Smile
- Original Message - 
From: Tommy to...@sirinet.net
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


On the Q9. That would be cool that you could unlock more characters  each 
one of them have different story. That's would be awesome!


Tommy


- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
have a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, 
such as the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. 
Also, when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not 
immediately switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain 
momentum until, after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have 
also expanded the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not 
only a maximum but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, 
you need to back off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the 
same is true for the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other 
hand, are better for close range combat. This all makes for a much more 
dynamic gaming experience, and coupled with the vastly improved 
artificial intelligence of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have 
a much better product than Q9 coming up. smile.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the 
distance.


However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get 
round

it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
bennifits

to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must 
either

use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably 
be a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
that

attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities 
of

environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
engagin in attacks with them.

Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where 
by

your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
button not merely pressing it.

This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
just

rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

Beware the Grue!

Dark.


---
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gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,

please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.

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Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread dark
While I've seen some games that penalize an ability due to low health, eg, 
taking a power up off you when you get hit, I think actually peanlizing the 
characters' movement would indeed be unnecessarily harsh and end up as more 
of an annoyence.


even resident evil, which was extremely realistic in the way characters were 
damaged tec didn't do this.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Ken,

You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing 
down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few 
injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well 
stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world 
conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a 
fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain 
surfaces such as branches, however.


The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit 
myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use 
real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not 
possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including 
effects in my game.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hey Philip,
how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the
type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps?
Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
have

a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as
the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also,
when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately
switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until,
after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded
the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a 
maximum

but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back
off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for
the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for
close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming
experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence
of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product
than Q9 coming up. smile.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the 
distance.


However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are
merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get 
round

it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the
bennifits
to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

To take your example, look at these two different situations:

1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
defend yourself the instance after.

or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must 
either

use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably 
be

a
surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting
that
attack once your across the pit.

The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
take into account the environment around you.

I actually think not enough has really been done

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ron Kolesar
Ok to ask a stupid question.
What is space sound?
Is it a new space game?
Where can I grab it to test it out?
Ron
Ron Kolesar
kolesar16...@roadrunner.com

--
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:10 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

 Hi Ken,

 You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing 
 down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a few 
 injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as well 
 stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real world 
 conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the player a 
 fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on certain 
 surfaces such as branches, however.

 The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit 
 myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use 
 real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is not 
 possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be including 
 effects in my game.

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall
 - Original Message - 
 From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com
 To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


 Hey Philip,
 how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the
 type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps?
 Ken Downey
 President
 DreamTechInteractive!
 And,
 Blind Comfort!
 The pleasant way to experience massage!
 It's the Caring
 without the Staring!

 - Original Message - 
 From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


 Hi Dark,

 In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
 attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
 have
 a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as
 the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also,
 when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately
 switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until,
 after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded
 the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a 
 maximum
 but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back
 off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for
 the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for
 close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming
 experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence
 of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product
 than Q9 coming up. smile.

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall
 - Original Message - 
 From: dark d...@xgam.org
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


 Hello Darren.

 Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
 head.

 You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
 golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the 
 distance.

 However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are
 merely
 presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get 
 round
 it, rather than there being a set way.

 For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
 from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

 While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more
 work
 to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the
 bennifits
 to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

 To take your example, look at these two different situations:

 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
 defend yourself the instance after.

 or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must 
 either
 use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

 the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
 perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably 
 be
 a
 surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting
 that
 attack once your across the pit.

 The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
 take into account the environment around you.

 I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities 
 of
 environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
 wind to show the depths of a pit

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread dark

Hmmm ron.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there.

I'm not talking about a game, but an aspect of gameplay, ie, the space 
around your character.


You might considder having a look at the gamers list public archives for the 
full discussion.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
If you make med kits a bit more available, and the game was engrossing 
enough, I think the slight slowing of a character would just add to the 
complexity.  That way, it's not just the Okay, I'm two steps away from a 
pit, time to jump, kind of thing, but, okay, I'm two steps away from a 
pit, my health is at 50 percent.  How close should I get?  If I get too 
close the monster will get me.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org
To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


While I've seen some games that penalize an ability due to low health, eg, 
taking a power up off you when you get hit, I think actually peanlizing 
the characters' movement would indeed be unnecessarily harsh and end up as 
more of an annoyence.


even resident evil, which was extremely realistic in the way characters 
were damaged tec didn't do this.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Ken,

You only really have one type of boots and I am trying to avoid slowing 
down the character's actions based on health. This is mainly because a 
few injuries would give you such a serious disadvantage so you might as 
well stop playing and restart. This is obviously going away from real 
world conditions somewhat, but I feel that this is needed to give the 
player a fair chance. I do have it set up so that you cannot run on 
certain surfaces such as branches, however.


The idea about effects is one that I have been thinking about quite a bit 
myself. Since I am upgrading from DirectSound to XAudio2, I can now use 
real-time dynamic effects both on Windows XP, and Vista and 7 which is 
not possible with DirectSound. So it is very probable that I will be 
including effects in my game.


Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: Ken the Crazy kenwdow...@neo.rr.com

To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hey Philip,
how about basing maximums speed reached on the number of hit points, the
type of shoes-boots being worn etc instead of the flat 5 steps?
Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hi Dark,

In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the
attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I 
have

a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as
the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also,
when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not 
immediately

switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until,
after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded
the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a 
maximum

but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back
off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for
the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for
close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming
experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence
of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product
than Q9 coming up. smile.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


Hello Darren.

Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
head.

You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the 
distance.


However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are
merely
presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get 
round

it, rather than there being a set way.

For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal 
jump

from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more
work
to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the
bennifits
to making addictive games are hugely worth

Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Ken the Crazy
Oh, I thought he was just being a smart aleck, making fun of the way so many 
gamers post.

Ken Downey
President
DreamTechInteractive!
And,
Blind Comfort!
The pleasant way to experience massage!
It's the Caring
without the Staring!

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio



Hmmm ron.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there.

I'm not talking about a game, but an aspect of gameplay, ie, the space 
around your character.


You might considder having a look at the gamers list public archives for 
the full discussion.


Beware the grue!

Dark.

---
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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list,
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Dark,
Could you possibly leave the message you are replying to at the bottom? Not
a big deal; just wondering.

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of dark
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 1:18 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Hmmm ron.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there.

I'm not talking about a game, but an aspect of gameplay, ie, the space 
around your character.

You might considder having a look at the gamers list public archives for the

full discussion.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 


---
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If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

2011-03-16 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
Phillip...Philip...do you have to make us want to snatch the game off your
computer right now? Grin

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Lori Duncan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 9:07 AM
To: Philip Bennefall; Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio

Hi if it's better than q-9 then it'll be a knock out!  As long as it's got 
wepons Smile
- Original Message - 
From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


 Hi Dark,

 In Q9 you do hear monsters from across pits etc, but as you say the 
 attacking and jumping mechanics are quite flat. In my upcoming game I have

 a very different setup. I have spent a lot of time on mechanics, such as 
 the fact that you no longer tap an arrow key to move in the air. Also, 
 when you begin running from a walk or a standstill you do not immediately 
 switch to your maximum speed. Instead you gradually gain momentum until, 
 after four or five steps, you are at your maximum. I have also expanded 
 the concepts of weapons slightly, where each weapon has not only a maximum

 but also a minimum range. To use a rifle, for instance, you need to back 
 off a bit from the target before you can fire, and the same is true for 
 the spear. The knife and the revolver, on the other hand, are better for 
 close range combat. This all makes for a much more dynamic gaming 
 experience, and coupled with the vastly improved artificial intelligence 
 of the creatures in the game I am hoping to have a much better product 
 than Q9 coming up. smile.

 Kind regards,

 Philip Bennefall
 - Original Message - 
 From: dark d...@xgam.org
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Reviewing space in audio


 Hello Darren.

 Actually thinking about it, you've probably hit the nail exactly on the
 head.

 You talk about showing in audio how far to jump  say like in Jim's
 golf game where your told what a shot is and then must judge the distance.

 However, in a graphical game you are never told this at all you are 
 merely
 presented with an obstacle and it's up to you to work out how to get round
 it, rather than there being a set way.

 For instance, you might get over a long pit either by doing a normal jump
 from directly on the edge, or by doing a running jump from further back.

 While I do agree a more analogue and free form system in audio is more 
 work
 to come up with, I certainly don't think it's impossible, and the 
 bennifits
 to making addictive games are hugely worth it.

 To take your example, look at these two different situations:

 1: you press a key once to jump over a pit, then are attacked and must
 defend yourself the instance after.

 or 2: you can here! a monster on the other side of the pit and must either
 use a ranged attack, or wait until the monster backs off to jump across.

 the first situation is similar to a game like Q9 or superliam, and just
 perpetuates the issue we have now. yes, the first time it will probably be

 a
 surprise, but after only a couple of playthroughs, you'll be expecting 
 that
 attack once your across the pit.

 The second case however gives you more options, and indeed forces you to
 take into account the environment around you.

 I actually think not enough has really been done with the possibilities of
 environmental sound in a 2D contex, for instance,  using the pitch of
 wind to show the depths of a pit, or being abel to here monsters before
 engagin in attacks with them.

 Also, to my knolidge no audio game has ever used the more analogue style
 movement which has been in mainstream games sinse the early 80's, where by
 your characters' jump high or walking speed are tied to holding down a
 button not merely pressing it.

 This is quite possible to do in audio (look at the rai racer jets), I'm 
 just
 rather confused as to why nobody has yet implemented it in a game.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
 If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
 list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.

 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched