[Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games
Hi Tom. What you say about lack of experience sounds familiar indeed. To an extent it seems to be a general problem, but one which is 100 times worse for someone with a disability, and I have to say, an atitude which is probably worse in this country than in the states. I've just found generally the wha! he's blind syndrome of your average Britain seems to be far more serious than that of other nations I've either been in, like America and Norway. What I was thinking here though, is about atitudes of blind people themselves. Today, I met two representatives from Guide dogs to start off the application process. When discussing what sort of mobility commitments my dog might have, one of the guide dog trainers freely said your not like most blind people, you go out and do things and want to do more, most have to be told what it's possible for them to do I know myself I have a tendency to pre-judge blind people into the I can't do X because I'm blind, or learn how to do X myself catagory. This comes from too much experience of specialized schools and agencies where that was very much the atitude, and meeting too many blind people who have similar thoughts. On one occasion for instance, one blind person told me not to apply to a certain university because they had a very bad disability service and one blind student had fell in the lake! While there are issues it's necessary to have independence for, mostly if you fall in a lake it's your own fault! Also, if the disability service is good, --- that's a bonus. If (as is the case in Durham), it isn't, then can't you sort things out yourself? It wasn't until I actually started talking to blind people from other parts of the world, --- -and ones who'd had enough gumption to go out and find this list, that I realized i was making a mistake in classifying all blind people this way. I do wonder though if, while certainly not all, a significant majority of blind people do have this I cannot do X attitude which also applies to gaming. I've certainly spoken to people who tried a brief free audio game, couldn't get the hang and so stopped bothering with games in general, or found one game they liked, and never tried to see if there were more games out there or not, simply assuming that was the end of things. Then, as I believe phil has commented in the passed, there is the codling atitude of agencies and organizations. In trying to obtain some braille lables, I phoned durham society for the blind this afternoon and spoke to a chap there. For interests' sake i mentioned audio games. He said the Durham society certainly neither stocked them nor provided information on them (they didn't stock braille lables either as it happened, so this wasn't a huge surprise). The really interesting thing this chap said though, was that the only audio games he'd heard of were Azabat's and he assumed all other games to be similar. While there is probably a place for simple, easy to use no tech skills required simplistic games, if this is the only impression people get of audio games, it's not any wonder there's no interest! I can't speak for the states or anywhere else (certainly as I said, I believe there are quite a few countries where things are different). But in Britain, it does strike me the problems in selling audio games are just a reflection of deeper atitude problems about blindness. Unfortunately though, the only way to change this, is maximal exposure and education! This is now turning into a preaching session, so i'll stop! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games
Dear father dark, Lol sorry I couldn't resist smile. You're absolutely right though. The attitudes in this country amaze me. Take people in america for example they just get on with it as best they can. Ok you get the organizations that go a little too far like the nfb who think that effectively nobody should have help but there's plenty of people that think that help is only good if you want to help yourself. Which is right. I agree with that. The problem over here is the attitude that if we do it for you then there's no accidents so there's no liability. Unfortunately that's the long and the short of it. Honestly I think this country should become the next state of america. Throw the EU out completely and just convert the whole thing into the way you guys do things state side. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 03 December 2009 17:00 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Tom. What you say about lack of experience sounds familiar indeed. To an extent it seems to be a general problem, but one which is 100 times worse for someone with a disability, and I have to say, an atitude which is probably worse in this country than in the states. I've just found generally the wha! he's blind syndrome of your average Britain seems to be far more serious than that of other nations I've either been in, like America and Norway. What I was thinking here though, is about atitudes of blind people themselves. Today, I met two representatives from Guide dogs to start off the application process. When discussing what sort of mobility commitments my dog might have, one of the guide dog trainers freely said your not like most blind people, you go out and do things and want to do more, most have to be told what it's possible for them to do I know myself I have a tendency to pre-judge blind people into the I can't do X because I'm blind, or learn how to do X myself catagory. This comes from too much experience of specialized schools and agencies where that was very much the atitude, and meeting too many blind people who have similar thoughts. On one occasion for instance, one blind person told me not to apply to a certain university because they had a very bad disability service and one blind student had fell in the lake! While there are issues it's necessary to have independence for, mostly if you fall in a lake it's your own fault! Also, if the disability service is good, --- that's a bonus. If (as is the case in Durham), it isn't, then can't you sort things out yourself? It wasn't until I actually started talking to blind people from other parts of the world, --- -and ones who'd had enough gumption to go out and find this list, that I realized i was making a mistake in classifying all blind people this way. I do wonder though if, while certainly not all, a significant majority of blind people do have this I cannot do X attitude which also applies to gaming. I've certainly spoken to people who tried a brief free audio game, couldn't get the hang and so stopped bothering with games in general, or found one game they liked, and never tried to see if there were more games out there or not, simply assuming that was the end of things. Then, as I believe phil has commented in the passed, there is the codling atitude of agencies and organizations. In trying to obtain some braille lables, I phoned durham society for the blind this afternoon and spoke to a chap there. For interests' sake i mentioned audio games. He said the Durham society certainly neither stocked them nor provided information on them (they didn't stock braille lables either as it happened, so this wasn't a huge surprise). The really interesting thing this chap said though, was that the only audio games he'd heard of were Azabat's and he assumed all other games to be similar. While there is probably a place for simple, easy to use no tech skills required simplistic games, if this is the only impression people get of audio games, it's not any wonder there's no interest! I can't speak for the states or anywhere else (certainly as I said, I believe there are quite a few countries where things are different). But in Britain, it does strike me the problems in selling audio games are just a reflection of deeper atitude problems about blindness. Unfortunately though, the only way to change this, is maximal exposure and education! This is now turning into a preaching session, so i'll stop! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages
Re: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games
Yeah America rocks. U.S.A! Most of the voc rehab people I know deal with people who are significantly older and thus less interesting... ehem... interested in Audio Games. IT people stack money by teaching people the same basic screenreader skills over and over. I'm sure there are some who show their patrons something a little more interesting. On the other hand, my first introduction to modern audiogames was when I found some of Jim Kitchen's games (the old Mach 1 and Pong) as well as Shades of Doom in 2002 on a Lighthouse lab computer. (the Lighthouse is a non-prophet providing services and training to blindies in New York and maybe Chicago) On 12/3/09, Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote: Dear father dark, Lol sorry I couldn't resist smile. You're absolutely right though. The attitudes in this country amaze me. Take people in america for example they just get on with it as best they can. Ok you get the organizations that go a little too far like the nfb who think that effectively nobody should have help but there's plenty of people that think that help is only good if you want to help yourself. Which is right. I agree with that. The problem over here is the attitude that if we do it for you then there's no accidents so there's no liability. Unfortunately that's the long and the short of it. Honestly I think this country should become the next state of america. Throw the EU out completely and just convert the whole thing into the way you guys do things state side. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 03 December 2009 17:00 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Tom. What you say about lack of experience sounds familiar indeed. To an extent it seems to be a general problem, but one which is 100 times worse for someone with a disability, and I have to say, an atitude which is probably worse in this country than in the states. I've just found generally the wha! he's blind syndrome of your average Britain seems to be far more serious than that of other nations I've either been in, like America and Norway. What I was thinking here though, is about atitudes of blind people themselves. Today, I met two representatives from Guide dogs to start off the application process. When discussing what sort of mobility commitments my dog might have, one of the guide dog trainers freely said your not like most blind people, you go out and do things and want to do more, most have to be told what it's possible for them to do I know myself I have a tendency to pre-judge blind people into the I can't do X because I'm blind, or learn how to do X myself catagory. This comes from too much experience of specialized schools and agencies where that was very much the atitude, and meeting too many blind people who have similar thoughts. On one occasion for instance, one blind person told me not to apply to a certain university because they had a very bad disability service and one blind student had fell in the lake! While there are issues it's necessary to have independence for, mostly if you fall in a lake it's your own fault! Also, if the disability service is good, --- that's a bonus. If (as is the case in Durham), it isn't, then can't you sort things out yourself? It wasn't until I actually started talking to blind people from other parts of the world, --- -and ones who'd had enough gumption to go out and find this list, that I realized i was making a mistake in classifying all blind people this way. I do wonder though if, while certainly not all, a significant majority of blind people do have this I cannot do X attitude which also applies to gaming. I've certainly spoken to people who tried a brief free audio game, couldn't get the hang and so stopped bothering with games in general, or found one game they liked, and never tried to see if there were more games out there or not, simply assuming that was the end of things. Then, as I believe phil has commented in the passed, there is the codling atitude of agencies and organizations. In trying to obtain some braille lables, I phoned durham society for the blind this afternoon and spoke to a chap there. For interests' sake i mentioned audio games. He said the Durham society certainly neither stocked them nor provided information on them (they didn't stock braille lables either as it happened, so this wasn't a huge surprise). The really interesting thing this chap said though, was that the only audio games he'd heard of were Azabat's and he assumed all other games to be similar. While there is probably a place for simple, easy to use no tech skills required simplistic games, if this is the only impression people get of audio games, it's not any wonder
Re: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games
Wellyou scare me a litle Darren, given who the dark father is in the Byron chronicles from www.darkerprojects.com, and by the fact that my parents are currently visiting, and I've just spent a couple of hours sitting a pub discussing this very subject with my own father, would he be father dark? ;D. My dad's opinion is that the British system is years old, where as the American one has been setup anew. I wouldn't be a fan of Britain becoming the 51st state of America, there are certain things the Us government has done, and certain things that happen in American society which I'm glad to be out of, but I do completely agree that America, along with norway (the only country I've ever seen the entire flow of traffic literally stop dead when I was crossing with my stick), Holland, griece, --- and I believe newzeeland make the Uk look like the stone age where disability relations are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games Dear father dark, Lol sorry I couldn't resist smile. You're absolutely right though. The attitudes in this country amaze me. Take people in america for example they just get on with it as best they can. Ok you get the organizations that go a little too far like the nfb who think that effectively nobody should have help but there's plenty of people that think that help is only good if you want to help yourself. Which is right. I agree with that. The problem over here is the attitude that if we do it for you then there's no accidents so there's no liability. Unfortunately that's the long and the short of it. Honestly I think this country should become the next state of america. Throw the EU out completely and just convert the whole thing into the way you guys do things state side. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: 03 December 2009 17:00 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Games and atitudes was: was:Screen Readers and Games Hi Tom. What you say about lack of experience sounds familiar indeed. To an extent it seems to be a general problem, but one which is 100 times worse for someone with a disability, and I have to say, an atitude which is probably worse in this country than in the states. I've just found generally the wha! he's blind syndrome of your average Britain seems to be far more serious than that of other nations I've either been in, like America and Norway. What I was thinking here though, is about atitudes of blind people themselves. Today, I met two representatives from Guide dogs to start off the application process. When discussing what sort of mobility commitments my dog might have, one of the guide dog trainers freely said your not like most blind people, you go out and do things and want to do more, most have to be told what it's possible for them to do I know myself I have a tendency to pre-judge blind people into the I can't do X because I'm blind, or learn how to do X myself catagory. This comes from too much experience of specialized schools and agencies where that was very much the atitude, and meeting too many blind people who have similar thoughts. On one occasion for instance, one blind person told me not to apply to a certain university because they had a very bad disability service and one blind student had fell in the lake! While there are issues it's necessary to have independence for, mostly if you fall in a lake it's your own fault! Also, if the disability service is good, --- that's a bonus. If (as is the case in Durham), it isn't, then can't you sort things out yourself? It wasn't until I actually started talking to blind people from other parts of the world, --- -and ones who'd had enough gumption to go out and find this list, that I realized i was making a mistake in classifying all blind people this way. I do wonder though if, while certainly not all, a significant majority of blind people do have this I cannot do X attitude which also applies to gaming. I've certainly spoken to people who tried a brief free audio game, couldn't get the hang and so stopped bothering with games in general, or found one game they liked, and never tried to see if there were more games out there or not, simply assuming that was the end of things. Then, as I believe phil has commented in the passed, there is the codling atitude of agencies and organizations. In trying to obtain some braille lables, I phoned durham society for the blind this afternoon and spoke to a chap there. For interests' sake i mentioned audio games. He said the Durham society certainly neither stocked them
