Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
every time I check to get the redist, etc the last version was for 2010 at june some times. Hi Shaun, I'm not quite sure what you mean by DirectX 9 has come to end of life now. The current version of DirectX is still 9.0C. However, individual components have been upgraded such as Direct3D is now v11.0, DirectInput latest is 8.1, XAudio2 has replaced DirectSound, etc but it is still all core DirectX 9 for C++ developers. For .Net developers XNA Framework is a wrapper for DirectX 9.0C.. So DirectX 9 is definitely not dead, but is continuing to get updated quarterly. What people call DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 is simply DirectX 9.0C with Direct3D 10 or Direct3D 11. That's the only difference between 9.0C and newer DirectX versions that ship with Vista and Windows 7. HTH On 3/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: the trouble with all the dotnet stuff is that if you check all the boxes windows update will load it all for you, directx needs to be got seperately. The only saving grace for it now is that dx9 has come to end of life now. At 03:52 a.m. 28/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, as a gamer I completely understand your point of view on this, but as a developer I see the other side of the issue too. For one thing as a professionally trained programmer I like my work to reflect my skills, education, etc so my personal standards for quality is fairly high. Nothing drives me crazier than an incomplete or fairly buggy piece of software that I personally created. For example, copyright issues aside with Montezuma's Revenge I was going to have to eventually rewrite that program, or at least a large part of it, to fix a couple of technical issues I made early on in game development. One of them was the jump bug were you could jump through walls, or jump and get stuck in mid air for no reason at all. Obviously, these problems were fixed when I wrote the G3D engine which MOTA uses, but I wasn't quite sure how to fix it at the time I was working on Monte. The other problem was that I used James North's coordinate system with (0, 0) at the top-left corner of the map and (50, 50) at the bottom-right corner of the map. This would have been ok accept when I wrote my trig calculations for the game my orientation was backwards which means the game mechanics operated incorrectly. The problem could have been fixed fairly easily, but Utopia put an end to development before I had a chance to actually rewrite/correct the game mechanics.so even if I had been allowed to complete the game at some point I was going to have to correct those bugs. With STFC as I think you might remember I lost the source code to the game during a system crash. As a result I was either forced to release the game as is, I.E. release the last beta as 1.0, or rewrite it from scratch. I chose a short-term solution which was to take the last beta from the website, changed a few voice files to say 1.0, and released it as is. Sure it is a good game, but there were bugs I never could correct without the source code which I need to fix it. So as a developer it was a little frustrating to get a support e-mail reporting bugs I already knew about, and knowing I couldn't possibly fix them without a complete rewrite. Plus at the time STFC and Monte was being developed people were always having troubles installing .Net and Managed DirectX which got to be a hastle because at the time XP shipped with neither technology, and they had to be installed in the exact correct order in the exact right way or STFC wouldn't run. Although, newerWindows releases like Windows 7 have gone a long way to resolving most problems with .Net applications its still an issue for older XP systems. Plus I've had a few e-mails to the effect people don't want to install .Net on their computer for one reason or another. The other issue was a lot of gamers felt at the time I could fix the .Net compatibility issues simply by creating a streamline install of all the dependencies which would simplify installing the game. They were right I could have fixed the problems with .Net and Managed DirectX by packing them with my installer, but instead of 25 MB the install size would have jumped to well over 500 MB. This dependency issue is primarily one reason I began moving away from .Net and decided to look at C, C++, Java or something else. I didn't think it was fare to the gamer to install a game with 500 MB of dependencies attached. Not to mention It was going to cost me more in download bandwidth, storage space, etc. Let's face it .Net based apps are bloated beyond belief when you need several third-party managed libraries that may or may not be preinstalled on your system. To sum up the issue I don't think game developers such as Josh and myself necessarily want to take down games that are old because they lack maret, but do it because the game in question no longer operates correctly or as expected on the current hardware or OS as intended. Answering tech support
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Shaun, Ahem...That's because that is the latest release. I'm not sure why, but Microsoft hasn't released any updates to DirectX since last summer. That's actually good for us game developers, because it helps people actually catch up and have an actual version to point customers to when using XAudio2, X3DAudio, XInput, etc. At last we have a truly stable version that is going to remain fixed for a while. Cheers! On 3/29/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: every time I check to get the redist, etc the last version was for 2010 at june some times. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hey, now that you've told Shaun that, Microsoft is sure to change everything around again, just in time, since they change software design as often as politicians change their minds. Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock Hi Shaun, I'm not quite sure what you mean by DirectX 9 has come to end of life now. The current version of DirectX is still 9.0C. However, individual components have been upgraded such as Direct3D is now v11.0, DirectInput latest is 8.1, XAudio2 has replaced DirectSound, etc but it is still all core DirectX 9 for C++ developers. For .Net developers XNA Framework is a wrapper for DirectX 9.0C.. So DirectX 9 is definitely not dead, but is continuing to get updated quarterly. What people call DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 is simply DirectX 9.0C with Direct3D 10 or Direct3D 11. That's the only difference between 9.0C and newer DirectX versions that ship with Vista and Windows 7. HTH On 3/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: the trouble with all the dotnet stuff is that if you check all the boxes windows update will load it all for you, directx needs to be got seperately. The only saving grace for it now is that dx9 has come to end of life now. At 03:52 a.m. 28/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, as a gamer I completely understand your point of view on this, but as a developer I see the other side of the issue too. For one thing as a professionally trained programmer I like my work to reflect my skills, education, etc so my personal standards for quality is fairly high. Nothing drives me crazier than an incomplete or fairly buggy piece of software that I personally created. For example, copyright issues aside with Montezuma's Revenge I was going to have to eventually rewrite that program, or at least a large part of it, to fix a couple of technical issues I made early on in game development. One of them was the jump bug were you could jump through walls, or jump and get stuck in mid air for no reason at all. Obviously, these problems were fixed when I wrote the G3D engine which MOTA uses, but I wasn't quite sure how to fix it at the time I was working on Monte. The other problem was that I used James North's coordinate system with (0, 0) at the top-left corner of the map and (50, 50) at the bottom-right corner of the map. This would have been ok accept when I wrote my trig calculations for the game my orientation was backwards which means the game mechanics operated incorrectly. The problem could have been fixed fairly easily, but Utopia put an end to development before I had a chance to actually rewrite/correct the game mechanics.so even if I had been allowed to complete the game at some point I was going to have to correct those bugs. With STFC as I think you might remember I lost the source code to the game during a system crash. As a result I was either forced to release the game as is, I.E. release the last beta as 1.0, or rewrite it from scratch. I chose a short-term solution which was to take the last beta from the website, changed a few voice files to say 1.0, and released it as is. Sure it is a good game, but there were bugs I never could correct without the source code which I need to fix it. So as a developer it was a little frustrating to get a support e-mail reporting bugs I already knew about, and knowing I couldn't possibly fix them without a complete rewrite. Plus at the time STFC and Monte was being developed people were always having troubles installing .Net and Managed DirectX which got to be a hastle because at the time XP shipped with neither technology, and they had to be installed in the exact correct order in the exact right way or STFC wouldn't run. Although, newerWindows releases like Windows 7 have gone a long way to resolving most problems with .Net applications its still an issue for older XP systems. Plus I've had a few e-mails to the effect people don't want to install .Net on their computer for one reason or another. The other issue was a lot of gamers felt at the time I could fix the .Net compatibility issues simply by creating a streamline install of all the dependencies which would simplify installing the game. They were right I could have fixed the problems with .Net and Managed DirectX by packing them with my installer, but instead of 25 MB the install size would have jumped to well over 500 MB. This dependency issue is primarily one reason I began moving away from .Net and decided to look at C, C++, Java or something else. I didn't think it was fare to the gamer to install a game with 500 MB of dependencies attached. Not to mention It was going to cost me more in download bandwidth, storage space, etc. Let's face it .Net based apps are bloated beyond belief when you need several third-party managed libraries
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Ken, You are probably right. I've seen more changes in APIs etc in the last four than I have in the last 10 from Microsoft. Honestly it makes developing software for newer Windows platforms something of a nightmare as you litterally have to practically relearn everything from scratch. That said, not all of it is bad. The New HTML Help system for Vista and Windows 7 is a far cry nicer than XP and earlier. On 3/30/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Hey, now that you've told Shaun that, Microsoft is sure to change everything around again, just in time, since they change software design as often as politicians change their minds. Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
the trouble with all the dotnet stuff is that if you check all the boxes windows update will load it all for you, directx needs to be got seperately. The only saving grace for it now is that dx9 has come to end of life now. At 03:52 a.m. 28/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, as a gamer I completely understand your point of view on this, but as a developer I see the other side of the issue too. For one thing as a professionally trained programmer I like my work to reflect my skills, education, etc so my personal standards for quality is fairly high. Nothing drives me crazier than an incomplete or fairly buggy piece of software that I personally created. For example, copyright issues aside with Montezuma's Revenge I was going to have to eventually rewrite that program, or at least a large part of it, to fix a couple of technical issues I made early on in game development. One of them was the jump bug were you could jump through walls, or jump and get stuck in mid air for no reason at all. Obviously, these problems were fixed when I wrote the G3D engine which MOTA uses, but I wasn't quite sure how to fix it at the time I was working on Monte. The other problem was that I used James North's coordinate system with (0, 0) at the top-left corner of the map and (50, 50) at the bottom-right corner of the map. This would have been ok accept when I wrote my trig calculations for the game my orientation was backwards which means the game mechanics operated incorrectly. The problem could have been fixed fairly easily, but Utopia put an end to development before I had a chance to actually rewrite/correct the game mechanics.so even if I had been allowed to complete the game at some point I was going to have to correct those bugs. With STFC as I think you might remember I lost the source code to the game during a system crash. As a result I was either forced to release the game as is, I.E. release the last beta as 1.0, or rewrite it from scratch. I chose a short-term solution which was to take the last beta from the website, changed a few voice files to say 1.0, and released it as is. Sure it is a good game, but there were bugs I never could correct without the source code which I need to fix it. So as a developer it was a little frustrating to get a support e-mail reporting bugs I already knew about, and knowing I couldn't possibly fix them without a complete rewrite. Plus at the time STFC and Monte was being developed people were always having troubles installing .Net and Managed DirectX which got to be a hastle because at the time XP shipped with neither technology, and they had to be installed in the exact correct order in the exact right way or STFC wouldn't run. Although, newerWindows releases like Windows 7 have gone a long way to resolving most problems with .Net applications its still an issue for older XP systems. Plus I've had a few e-mails to the effect people don't want to install .Net on their computer for one reason or another. The other issue was a lot of gamers felt at the time I could fix the .Net compatibility issues simply by creating a streamline install of all the dependencies which would simplify installing the game. They were right I could have fixed the problems with .Net and Managed DirectX by packing them with my installer, but instead of 25 MB the install size would have jumped to well over 500 MB. This dependency issue is primarily one reason I began moving away from .Net and decided to look at C, C++, Java or something else. I didn't think it was fare to the gamer to install a game with 500 MB of dependencies attached. Not to mention It was going to cost me more in download bandwidth, storage space, etc. Let's face it .Net based apps are bloated beyond belief when you need several third-party managed libraries that may or may not be preinstalled on your system. To sum up the issue I don't think game developers such as Josh and myself necessarily want to take down games that are old because they lack maret, but do it because the game in question no longer operates correctly or as expected on the current hardware or OS as intended. Answering tech support e-mails or repeatedly answering people's question why this or that game no longer works takes time and energy away from the current game or upgrade in development. Especially, since the devlopers usually are the ones the support questions go to meaning we double aas developer and on the spot e-mail tech support person. For example, let's assume that someone writes USA Games support wondering why STFC 1.2 isn't working. I can talk them through correctly installing .Net, upgrading .Net if necessary, and getting Managed DirectX installed. That might take a couple of long winded e-mails, but eventually we will resolve the issue. Unfortunately, for me I could have spent that time on STFC 2.0 which will be far better than 1.x. Its written in C++, uses cross-platform libraries like SDL and FMOD, and the install size shouldn't be any
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Shaun, I'm not quite sure what you mean by DirectX 9 has come to end of life now. The current version of DirectX is still 9.0C. However, individual components have been upgraded such as Direct3D is now v11.0, DirectInput latest is 8.1, XAudio2 has replaced DirectSound, etc but it is still all core DirectX 9 for C++ developers. For .Net developers XNA Framework is a wrapper for DirectX 9.0C.. So DirectX 9 is definitely not dead, but is continuing to get updated quarterly. What people call DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 is simply DirectX 9.0C with Direct3D 10 or Direct3D 11. That's the only difference between 9.0C and newer DirectX versions that ship with Vista and Windows 7. HTH On 3/27/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: the trouble with all the dotnet stuff is that if you check all the boxes windows update will load it all for you, directx needs to be got seperately. The only saving grace for it now is that dx9 has come to end of life now. At 03:52 a.m. 28/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, as a gamer I completely understand your point of view on this, but as a developer I see the other side of the issue too. For one thing as a professionally trained programmer I like my work to reflect my skills, education, etc so my personal standards for quality is fairly high. Nothing drives me crazier than an incomplete or fairly buggy piece of software that I personally created. For example, copyright issues aside with Montezuma's Revenge I was going to have to eventually rewrite that program, or at least a large part of it, to fix a couple of technical issues I made early on in game development. One of them was the jump bug were you could jump through walls, or jump and get stuck in mid air for no reason at all. Obviously, these problems were fixed when I wrote the G3D engine which MOTA uses, but I wasn't quite sure how to fix it at the time I was working on Monte. The other problem was that I used James North's coordinate system with (0, 0) at the top-left corner of the map and (50, 50) at the bottom-right corner of the map. This would have been ok accept when I wrote my trig calculations for the game my orientation was backwards which means the game mechanics operated incorrectly. The problem could have been fixed fairly easily, but Utopia put an end to development before I had a chance to actually rewrite/correct the game mechanics.so even if I had been allowed to complete the game at some point I was going to have to correct those bugs. With STFC as I think you might remember I lost the source code to the game during a system crash. As a result I was either forced to release the game as is, I.E. release the last beta as 1.0, or rewrite it from scratch. I chose a short-term solution which was to take the last beta from the website, changed a few voice files to say 1.0, and released it as is. Sure it is a good game, but there were bugs I never could correct without the source code which I need to fix it. So as a developer it was a little frustrating to get a support e-mail reporting bugs I already knew about, and knowing I couldn't possibly fix them without a complete rewrite. Plus at the time STFC and Monte was being developed people were always having troubles installing .Net and Managed DirectX which got to be a hastle because at the time XP shipped with neither technology, and they had to be installed in the exact correct order in the exact right way or STFC wouldn't run. Although, newerWindows releases like Windows 7 have gone a long way to resolving most problems with .Net applications its still an issue for older XP systems. Plus I've had a few e-mails to the effect people don't want to install .Net on their computer for one reason or another. The other issue was a lot of gamers felt at the time I could fix the .Net compatibility issues simply by creating a streamline install of all the dependencies which would simplify installing the game. They were right I could have fixed the problems with .Net and Managed DirectX by packing them with my installer, but instead of 25 MB the install size would have jumped to well over 500 MB. This dependency issue is primarily one reason I began moving away from .Net and decided to look at C, C++, Java or something else. I didn't think it was fare to the gamer to install a game with 500 MB of dependencies attached. Not to mention It was going to cost me more in download bandwidth, storage space, etc. Let's face it .Net based apps are bloated beyond belief when you need several third-party managed libraries that may or may not be preinstalled on your system. To sum up the issue I don't think game developers such as Josh and myself necessarily want to take down games that are old because they lack maret, but do it because the game in question no longer operates correctly or as expected on the current hardware or OS as intended. Answering tech support e-mails or repeatedly answering people's question why this or that game no longer works takes
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Tom. these shenanigans with microsoft promising one api and replacing it with another, and an inaccessible one at that sound fairly typical unfortunately. Personally though as a player, there are so many direct x games out there it isn't funny, I'll probably need to have direct x on my system for a good while, heck look at Jim and vb. This doesn't just apply to audio games though at all. Both of my favourite freeware graphical Turrican projects are direct x applications. My personal thought is, so long as a developer will provide me with either the dependencies themselves or a place I can get them, i really don't mind downloading other stuff, and in fact I suspect that in three or five years or so when this desktop goes caputski and I'm forced to switch to a windows 7 machine I'll be needing direct x anyway precisely for that reason. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock Hi Dark, Well, that's true to a point. The fact of the matter is most software for Windows now days is being developed around the new Microsoft .Net technologies so .Net is an essential dependency for a lot of new software anyway. That's why Vista ships with .Net Framework 3.0 and Windows 7 now ships with .Net 4.0 out of the box. It is now a preinstalled core component of the operating system. So that in and of itself doesn't bother me. In say three to five years most of the Windows XP systems will be most likely beginning to be updated./replaced by newer, faster, and better 64bit systems running Windows 7 with at least .Net 4.0. So in the long term sticking with .Net is on a developers side as the extra dependencies that were such a pain three or four years ago are going to no longer be an issue since Microsoft has already made them core components for every Windows Vista and Windows 7 system built over the last three years or so. The real big issue I have with the current STFC and Montezuma's Revenge is the DirectX components I used. Early in 2004 as part of their DirectX 9 marketing campaign Microsoft unvailed there Managed DirectX components all designed for .Net 1.1. I like a number of independant software developers using C# .Net and Visual Basic .Net migrated quickly to the new API. In 20006 Microsoft was hinting at Managed DirectX 2.0 to ship with .Net Framework 2.0. It never appeared. Instead a few days after Windows Vista was released Microsoft pulled a double wammy on the game developers. They announced that as of August 2008 Managed DirectX was going to be deprecated and that there were beginning an all new API called the XNA Framework that was suppose to work hand in hand with the cross-platform API they were developing for the XBox 360. Well, when XNA 1.0 hit the scene I downloaded it expecting to switch games like Monte over to it right away only to discover it wasn't accessible to a blind developer. You have to use a program called XAct to create pack files containing soundbanks which then are loaded into XAudio and played based on the settings stored in the Soundbank. So if you couldn't see to check the boxes to loop sounds, to enable 3d positioning, etc you were pretty much screwed. Which I royally was. Microsoft had dropped the technology I was using and gave me one that was far less accessible and I was stuck. At that time SlimDX didn't exist and I wasn't about to fork over hundreds of dollars to Firelight for FMOD Ex. I might have been satisfied with Managed DirectX as is, but it turned out it has a few nasty bugs that Microsoft hadn't fixed and never were going to fix. So you see in that way my games like STFC and Montezuma's Revenge were no better off than those being written in VB 6 all because Microsoft had pulled the rug out from under me by promising one API and delivering a different one I couldn't use. That's what prompted my switch to C++. Of course, things with .Net game development is a bit different now. Microsoft's idea to cancel Managed DirectX and replace it with XNA didn't go over with everyone. I can say there were a number of people on the DirectX mailing list, most of them mainstream companies, who were up in arms about the surprise API change. All of us were expecting the release ofMDX 2.0 and Microsoft happily announces XNA 1.0 which meant everybody had to rewrite substantial amount of code to use it. People were pretty steamed over it. Out of that outrage began an open source project called SlimDX. It is essentially Managed DirectX under a new name and written by a core group of open source developers who wanted to maintain a .Net implamentation of DirectX that supported DirectSound, DirectMusic, DirectPlay, DirectInput, etc. In other words everything Microsoft was trashing like yesterdays garbage in favor of the XNA libraries. Then, about that time were other open
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Dark, Let's make a destinction here. DirectX and Managed DirectX are not the same thing. Microsoft DirectX, I.E. the DirectX you are talking about, is already a core component of the Windows operating system. The core DirectX 8 libraries ship with XP, Vista, and Win 7 by default. Managed DirectX, MDX, was a very specific version of DirectX written and created exclusively for .Net development with languages like C#.net and VB.net. It could not be used by any other languages. So a game like Turrican definitely does not use Managed DirectX, but core DirectX 8. Does that make sense? Anyway, When MDX was initially created word was that it was going to become a core component of Windows Vista, but as I and everyone else soon found out it didn't happen. It was pulled from the Win Vista betas and was not included in the Vista final release. The only way to get it was to install the full DirectX 9.0C runtime which of course was like a 300 MB download. I personally felt lied to, and I don't think my customers should have to install that particular component when there are better alternatives available to them. More over at this point I'm so absolutely disgusted with Microsoft's business practices I'd like to distance myself from their APIs etc as much as possible on principle. They treat both their customers and third-party developers like crap. You know the saying, once bitten twice shy, that's me in a nutshell. I don't trust Microsoft when it comes to technology changes because I believe they pulled this stunt once they'll do it again. Cheers! On 3/28/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. these shenanigans with microsoft promising one api and replacing it with another, and an inaccessible one at that sound fairly typical unfortunately. Personally though as a player, there are so many direct x games out there it isn't funny, I'll probably need to have direct x on my system for a good while, heck look at Jim and vb. This doesn't just apply to audio games though at all. Both of my favourite freeware graphical Turrican projects are direct x applications. My personal thought is, so long as a developer will provide me with either the dependencies themselves or a place I can get them, i really don't mind downloading other stuff, and in fact I suspect that in three or five years or so when this desktop goes caputski and I'm forced to switch to a windows 7 machine I'll be needing direct x anyway precisely for that reason. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Ah, fair enough tom. i admit I didn't know about the difference betwene managed direct x and direct x. That probably explains why so many things need direct x generally. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock Hi Dark, Let's make a destinction here. DirectX and Managed DirectX are not the same thing. Microsoft DirectX, I.E. the DirectX you are talking about, is already a core component of the Windows operating system. The core DirectX 8 libraries ship with XP, Vista, and Win 7 by default. Managed DirectX, MDX, was a very specific version of DirectX written and created exclusively for .Net development with languages like C#.net and VB.net. It could not be used by any other languages. So a game like Turrican definitely does not use Managed DirectX, but core DirectX 8. Does that make sense? Anyway, When MDX was initially created word was that it was going to become a core component of Windows Vista, but as I and everyone else soon found out it didn't happen. It was pulled from the Win Vista betas and was not included in the Vista final release. The only way to get it was to install the full DirectX 9.0C runtime which of course was like a 300 MB download. I personally felt lied to, and I don't think my customers should have to install that particular component when there are better alternatives available to them. More over at this point I'm so absolutely disgusted with Microsoft's business practices I'd like to distance myself from their APIs etc as much as possible on principle. They treat both their customers and third-party developers like crap. You know the saying, once bitten twice shy, that's me in a nutshell. I don't trust Microsoft when it comes to technology changes because I believe they pulled this stunt once they'll do it again. Cheers! On 3/28/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. these shenanigans with microsoft promising one api and replacing it with another, and an inaccessible one at that sound fairly typical unfortunately. Personally though as a player, there are so many direct x games out there it isn't funny, I'll probably need to have direct x on my system for a good while, heck look at Jim and vb. This doesn't just apply to audio games though at all. Both of my favourite freeware graphical Turrican projects are direct x applications. My personal thought is, so long as a developer will provide me with either the dependencies themselves or a place I can get them, i really don't mind downloading other stuff, and in fact I suspect that in three or five years or so when this desktop goes caputski and I'm forced to switch to a windows 7 machine I'll be needing direct x anyway precisely for that reason. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Dark, Smile. I figured that's what happened. When a developer specifically says Managed DirectX most gamers naturally assume they are talking about the DirectX libraries that ship with Windows. I.E. the core DirectX libraries that most games generally use. For whatever reason Microsoft never made it clear to the general public that they actually have or had two different DirectX APIs available. So when a developer such as myself lists you need Managed DirectX for STFC, Montezuma's Revenge, etc people automatically assume they have it installed since DirectX comes with Windows. When the game doesn't work USA Games gets asked why it isn't working and they say I have DirectX 8, 9.0C, etc, .Net Framework x, etc and most of them don't have a clue that DirectX and Managed DirectX are two totally different things. When I tell them they have to grab the web installer and have it install the MDX components I generally have to explain to them that Managed DirectX and DirectX aren't the same thing. As a developer it just gets to be a hastle repeatedly explaining the same thing over and over again to a customer base, because they just don't know that DirectX and Managed DirectX aren't the same thing. Which brings me right back to why I'd like to get the original STFC off my website in the first place. The Managed DirectX API is deprecated, gone, ancient history, and to make matters worse there are still people who haven't a clue what it is or was. You mention DirectX or Managed DirectX they just assume you are talking about one and the same thing. As a developer who does his own tech support I'd like to be able to simply dispose of Managed DirectX, get it out of the picture, and adopt something most people can recognize as A, different from DirectX, or B, just use DirectX so people won't have to ffool with installing extra components. Cheers! On 3/28/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Ah, fair enough tom. i admit I didn't know about the difference betwene managed direct x and direct x. That probably explains why so many things need direct x generally. Beware the Grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
I so totally agree with you dark. This is sort of how I feel with the PCS dos games which I successfully gotten the demos of to work under windows with nvda in the command prompt, but you can't get the full versions anymore. Very sad indeed since those are quite a major thing in the audiogame history imho. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 12:49 PM Subject: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock While I appreciate from a programmers point of view that you want the latest and best version of something available and don't want your old work kicking around, as a player it always strikes me as A, slightly sad, and B, a litle pointless when a game is taken down especially when it had some merrit. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Yeah, those Dos pcs games kicked butt. Maybe they are primative compared to some of the stuff that's out now, but nothing compares to, for example the junkyard. I used to spend hours on that range, just waiting to see if I couldn't blow up that propane tank. Cops was fun too, as well as Snipe Hunt. Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com - Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock I so totally agree with you dark. This is sort of how I feel with the PCS dos games which I successfully gotten the demos of to work under windows with nvda in the command prompt, but you can't get the full versions anymore. Very sad indeed since those are quite a major thing in the audiogame history imho. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 12:49 PM Subject: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock While I appreciate from a programmers point of view that you want the latest and best version of something available and don't want your old work kicking around, as a player it always strikes me as A, slightly sad, and B, a litle pointless when a game is taken down especially when it had some merrit. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Ken, And don't forget PCS Space invaders with voice by Cristina Downey and voice editing by Ken Downey. My next project is to make a windows version of Cops with a junk yard target range. Phil - Original Message - From: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock Yeah, those Dos pcs games kicked butt. Maybe they are primative compared to some of the stuff that's out now, but nothing compares to, for example the junkyard. I used to spend hours on that range, just waiting to see if I couldn't blow up that propane tank. Cops was fun too, as well as Snipe Hunt. Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com - Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock I so totally agree with you dark. This is sort of how I feel with the PCS dos games which I successfully gotten the demos of to work under windows with nvda in the command prompt, but you can't get the full versions anymore. Very sad indeed since those are quite a major thing in the audiogame history imho. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 12:49 PM Subject: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock While I appreciate from a programmers point of view that you want the latest and best version of something available and don't want your old work kicking around, as a player it always strikes me as A, slightly sad, and B, a litle pointless when a game is taken down especially when it had some merrit. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3535 - Release Date: 03/28/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Dark, Well, as a gamer I completely understand your point of view on this, but as a developer I see the other side of the issue too. For one thing as a professionally trained programmer I like my work to reflect my skills, education, etc so my personal standards for quality is fairly high. Nothing drives me crazier than an incomplete or fairly buggy piece of software that I personally created. For example, copyright issues aside with Montezuma's Revenge I was going to have to eventually rewrite that program, or at least a large part of it, to fix a couple of technical issues I made early on in game development. One of them was the jump bug were you could jump through walls, or jump and get stuck in mid air for no reason at all. Obviously, these problems were fixed when I wrote the G3D engine which MOTA uses, but I wasn't quite sure how to fix it at the time I was working on Monte. The other problem was that I used James North's coordinate system with (0, 0) at the top-left corner of the map and (50, 50) at the bottom-right corner of the map. This would have been ok accept when I wrote my trig calculations for the game my orientation was backwards which means the game mechanics operated incorrectly. The problem could have been fixed fairly easily, but Utopia put an end to development before I had a chance to actually rewrite/correct the game mechanics.so even if I had been allowed to complete the game at some point I was going to have to correct those bugs. With STFC as I think you might remember I lost the source code to the game during a system crash. As a result I was either forced to release the game as is, I.E. release the last beta as 1.0, or rewrite it from scratch. I chose a short-term solution which was to take the last beta from the website, changed a few voice files to say 1.0, and released it as is. Sure it is a good game, but there were bugs I never could correct without the source code which I need to fix it. So as a developer it was a little frustrating to get a support e-mail reporting bugs I already knew about, and knowing I couldn't possibly fix them without a complete rewrite. Plus at the time STFC and Monte was being developed people were always having troubles installing .Net and Managed DirectX which got to be a hastle because at the time XP shipped with neither technology, and they had to be installed in the exact correct order in the exact right way or STFC wouldn't run. Although, newerWindows releases like Windows 7 have gone a long way to resolving most problems with .Net applications its still an issue for older XP systems. Plus I've had a few e-mails to the effect people don't want to install .Net on their computer for one reason or another. The other issue was a lot of gamers felt at the time I could fix the .Net compatibility issues simply by creating a streamline install of all the dependencies which would simplify installing the game. They were right I could have fixed the problems with .Net and Managed DirectX by packing them with my installer, but instead of 25 MB the install size would have jumped to well over 500 MB. This dependency issue is primarily one reason I began moving away from .Net and decided to look at C, C++, Java or something else. I didn't think it was fare to the gamer to install a game with 500 MB of dependencies attached. Not to mention It was going to cost me more in download bandwidth, storage space, etc. Let's face it .Net based apps are bloated beyond belief when you need several third-party managed libraries that may or may not be preinstalled on your system. To sum up the issue I don't think game developers such as Josh and myself necessarily want to take down games that are old because they lack maret, but do it because the game in question no longer operates correctly or as expected on the current hardware or OS as intended. Answering tech support e-mails or repeatedly answering people's question why this or that game no longer works takes time and energy away from the current game or upgrade in development. Especially, since the devlopers usually are the ones the support questions go to meaning we double aas developer and on the spot e-mail tech support person. For example, let's assume that someone writes USA Games support wondering why STFC 1.2 isn't working. I can talk them through correctly installing .Net, upgrading .Net if necessary, and getting Managed DirectX installed. That might take a couple of long winded e-mails, but eventually we will resolve the issue. Unfortunately, for me I could have spent that time on STFC 2.0 which will be far better than 1.x. Its written in C++, uses cross-platform libraries like SDL and FMOD, and the install size shouldn't be any more than 30 MB or so. Maybe more if I add music tracks for the various missions. However, you need to understand my personal frustration at having to support a technology and programming language I no longer use any more for game production and I know that something
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Tom. this does make sense in terms of support, though I will say on the net issue sinse there are so many other things thaat need net it's not so bad having it as a dependency (there was one point where almost everything new that came out seemed to, I remember due to the user accounts crash which I couldn't resolve back in 2007 that meant I couldn't run net stuff). At least in the case of Monti, you might however simply list the dependencies the way you already have on the stfc page, and just say that the game was a beta version where developement was stopped so may contain some bugs, and that your not offering tech support anymore for the game. Anyone who wants to see your complete software and disucss Mota etc can stil do so, but this does at least mean your older games are stil available for people who want them even on the understanding that they're not complete projects and have their issues. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
Hi Dark, Well, that's true to a point. The fact of the matter is most software for Windows now days is being developed around the new Microsoft .Net technologies so .Net is an essential dependency for a lot of new software anyway. That's why Vista ships with .Net Framework 3.0 and Windows 7 now ships with .Net 4.0 out of the box. It is now a preinstalled core component of the operating system. So that in and of itself doesn't bother me. In say three to five years most of the Windows XP systems will be most likely beginning to be updated./replaced by newer, faster, and better 64bit systems running Windows 7 with at least .Net 4.0. So in the long term sticking with .Net is on a developers side as the extra dependencies that were such a pain three or four years ago are going to no longer be an issue since Microsoft has already made them core components for every Windows Vista and Windows 7 system built over the last three years or so. The real big issue I have with the current STFC and Montezuma's Revenge is the DirectX components I used. Early in 2004 as part of their DirectX 9 marketing campaign Microsoft unvailed there Managed DirectX components all designed for .Net 1.1. I like a number of independant software developers using C# .Net and Visual Basic .Net migrated quickly to the new API. In 20006 Microsoft was hinting at Managed DirectX 2.0 to ship with .Net Framework 2.0. It never appeared. Instead a few days after Windows Vista was released Microsoft pulled a double wammy on the game developers. They announced that as of August 2008 Managed DirectX was going to be deprecated and that there were beginning an all new API called the XNA Framework that was suppose to work hand in hand with the cross-platform API they were developing for the XBox 360. Well, when XNA 1.0 hit the scene I downloaded it expecting to switch games like Monte over to it right away only to discover it wasn't accessible to a blind developer. You have to use a program called XAct to create pack files containing soundbanks which then are loaded into XAudio and played based on the settings stored in the Soundbank. So if you couldn't see to check the boxes to loop sounds, to enable 3d positioning, etc you were pretty much screwed. Which I royally was. Microsoft had dropped the technology I was using and gave me one that was far less accessible and I was stuck. At that time SlimDX didn't exist and I wasn't about to fork over hundreds of dollars to Firelight for FMOD Ex. I might have been satisfied with Managed DirectX as is, but it turned out it has a few nasty bugs that Microsoft hadn't fixed and never were going to fix. So you see in that way my games like STFC and Montezuma's Revenge were no better off than those being written in VB 6 all because Microsoft had pulled the rug out from under me by promising one API and delivering a different one I couldn't use. That's what prompted my switch to C++. Of course, things with .Net game development is a bit different now. Microsoft's idea to cancel Managed DirectX and replace it with XNA didn't go over with everyone. I can say there were a number of people on the DirectX mailing list, most of them mainstream companies, who were up in arms about the surprise API change. All of us were expecting the release ofMDX 2.0 and Microsoft happily announces XNA 1.0 which meant everybody had to rewrite substantial amount of code to use it. People were pretty steamed over it. Out of that outrage began an open source project called SlimDX. It is essentially Managed DirectX under a new name and written by a core group of open source developers who wanted to maintain a .Net implamentation of DirectX that supported DirectSound, DirectMusic, DirectPlay, DirectInput, etc. In other words everything Microsoft was trashing like yesterdays garbage in favor of the XNA libraries. Then, about that time were other open source developers who wanted to replace MDX with LibSDL. SDL has long been favored as the open source answer to DirectX on Mac and Linux, and so SDL .Net began. At the time I looked at it SDL .net wasn't that good. However, now days it is maturing into a very nice cross-platform API for game developers. Had I the the source code for Monte or STFC I might well just yank out the MS garbage, replace it with SDL .Net, and release it as open source. Indeed, I'm highly thinking of SDL more and more for my games since it is A, very small, B, they have no problems with redistributing it, and C, it is cross-platform. I think the only hang up is I have to put some sort of notice in my licensing info that SDL is free and open source, but in the main that's not a huge issue considering SDL would solve a lot of problems with companies like Microsoft changing technologies as quickly as they change their underware. I'd at least have a stable API/platform to build my games upon. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
[Audyssey] old games was, shell shock
While I appreciate from a programmers point of view that you want the latest and best version of something available and don't want your old work kicking around, as a player it always strikes me as A, slightly sad, and B, a litle pointless when a game is taken down especially when it had some merrit. if it's replaced by a more advanced version of the same game, fair enough, but there are very few games that have so litle merrit their totally not worth playing, especially with the limited number of audiogames available, which is one reason you get requests for games like shellshock, supershot self destruct etc, though interestingly enough this situation is changing as bgt allows more people to create simple arcade style games. This is alsow why i personally will not be getting rid of my final beta of montizumas return whatever the legal scumbags say, sinse even though Mota is undoubtedly a better game, Monti is stil worth playing, and it's level layout, as well as elements like electric fields which have not yet shown up in another game make it unique enough for me to want to keep. In fact were it not likely to get Tom into trouble, I'd post up both a setup file of the last beta and my unlock code so that people could play all levels that Tom made. I won't however be doing this for obvious reasons, though i do think it's rather a shame that all! tom's work there is wasted even if he's doing something better now, one reason why I'd like to see the title sound replaced with a generic name (miktanticutli's vengence? ;d), and the game with all levels unlocked or with a keygen stuck up as a free download, just so that it's unique elements, ie, level design and those features not present in Mota or other titles (which up until recently included vanishing platforms), aren't completely lost. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
