Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
hi, actually i can pour water without the use of my finger and I never spill. I have zero sight. All that aside though, I agree with most of your points. On 4/12/2011 7:09 PM, dark wrote: Actually tom, while travel and access issues are certainly a considderation, that wasn't precisely my point. One easy example of what I mean (and one I use in the introduction to my thesis), is pouring a glass of water. Betwene desire for a drink and that desire's satisfaction the sighted person has very few steps. 1, locate a glass which can be done instantaniously no matter where it is so long as it is in plane view. 2, turn on the tap. 3, pour in water to the level required, a thing a sighted person can judge without even paying attention sinse the connection betwene their visual cortex and spacial awareness is perfectly able to judge this with no conscious thought or need for concentration at all, indeed they may use the time to think about other matters. For a blind person, locating the glass will be a conscious exercise of spacial mapping or memory, remembering and placing themselves in relation to it, and pouring the water will require a continuous concentration of the relation of their finger to the flow into the glass, and even when they get it, they have to be careful where they put it and retain it's position in mind, or simply continue to hold it. These are all fairly trivial things and things which I imagine everyone on this list does every day. My point however, is that the amount of concentration and mental effort required is simply in and of itself greater when a person is visually impared, this is simply a biological limitation beyond what is normal, (I do have a deffinition of normal but that would take some time to explain), and what society considders normal, and is ultimately a contributing factor in why someone like oddbob of retroremakes can have a job, a wife and children and! produce games and a website blog, while a visually impared person can't. this isn't to say a disabled person can't do things, only that those things take considderably more time and effort because of their disability and in any calculation of what is possible in life, or what sort of responsability a government has to it's citizens, these factors must be taken into account, which they currently aren't! Btw, I agree on public transport in continental europe, but in the uk it's pretty dire, especially the train system, mostly due to some tortuous privatization rules and ridiculous over pricing. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi, Well, I can as well, but you have to be a bit careful. I've had occasions that I spilt water on the floor. I use a liquid indicater - Original Message - From: Raul A. Gallegos r...@asmodean.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3 hi, actually i can pour water without the use of my finger and I never spill. I have zero sight. All that aside though, I agree with most of your points. On 4/12/2011 7:09 PM, dark wrote: Actually tom, while travel and access issues are certainly a considderation, that wasn't precisely my point. One easy example of what I mean (and one I use in the introduction to my thesis), is pouring a glass of water. Betwene desire for a drink and that desire's satisfaction the sighted person has very few steps. 1, locate a glass which can be done instantaniously no matter where it is so long as it is in plane view. 2, turn on the tap. 3, pour in water to the level required, a thing a sighted person can judge without even paying attention sinse the connection betwene their visual cortex and spacial awareness is perfectly able to judge this with no conscious thought or need for concentration at all, indeed they may use the time to think about other matters. For a blind person, locating the glass will be a conscious exercise of spacial mapping or memory, remembering and placing themselves in relation to it, and pouring the water will require a continuous concentration of the relation of their finger to the flow into the glass, and even when they get it, they have to be careful where they put it and retain it's position in mind, or simply continue to hold it. These are all fairly trivial things and things which I imagine everyone on this list does every day. My point however, is that the amount of concentration and mental effort required is simply in and of itself greater when a person is visually impared, this is simply a biological limitation beyond what is normal, (I do have a deffinition of normal but that would take some time to explain), and what society considders normal, and is ultimately a contributing factor in why someone like oddbob of retroremakes can have a job, a wife and children and! produce games and a website blog, while a visually impared person can't. this isn't to say a disabled person can't do things, only that those things take considderably more time and effort because of their disability and in any calculation of what is possible in life, or what sort of responsability a government has to it's citizens, these factors must be taken into account, which they currently aren't! Btw, I agree on public transport in continental europe, but in the uk it's pretty dire, especially the train system, mostly due to some tortuous privatization rules and ridiculous over pricing. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Thomas, I lived in the first house behind the bank on Bellfield Avenue, which is off of Cedar Avenue just out of University Circle. I could see Case University out my bedroom window and it was close to a mile walk to the Cleveland Sight Center. I had to be at the bus stop by 6:30 to catch the 32c Cedar bus. I would get off at Taylor boulevard and wait for the Taylor bus, which would drop me off the other side of I90 near east a hundred and eighty fifth street at about 7:45. So I walk across the frozen pedestrian bridge over I90 and back up South Waterloo road to the company Fastener Service. Fasteners are nuts, bolts, screws, washers, rivets etc. Fastener Service bought bulk wholesale and sold smaller quantities to local companies. Parts went from so small that thousands would fit in the palm of your hand and weigh almost nothing to a single steel washer that weighed a pound.Or bolts 2 foot long and an inch and a half in diameter. Or a nut seven and a half inches across. Some of those were specialty parts to places like NASA, Diamond Shamrock, Rockwell etc. I did work my way up to warehouse foreman, but my job was still toting boxes and kegs of greasy, dirty steel parts around a non cooled or and barely heated warehouse to fill, package and ship orders. The kegs could weigh up to two hundred and fifty pounds. I was just barely legally blind due to tunnel vision, so I did everything including using the battery operated three wheel walk behind one ton rated fork lift to load and unload trucks. It was a hot, dirty, nasty job. They even kept a supply of salt tablets on hand. Good thing too as I needed them on occasion. But hey from carrying all that steel around all day for years, I never lost an arm wrestling match back then. Before that I worked the kitchen etc in my Dad's bar in Glenndale Arizona. Not really much fun working a hot kitchen in Glenndale slash Phoenix Arizona either. Before that I worked shipping and receiving slash plant gopher for the repair department in a nice cool clean electronics factory named LFE. They produced analog meters of all types. You know like the toe meters used for front end alignment in cars to refrigeration control meters or the UV meters in sound equipment. At that same time my Dad, Brother and I built a house and sold it for profit. Before that I was an external automotive reconditioning specialist. Yep, dried cars at the car wash. And at the same time bought pounds and sold ounces of pot. Before that I worked on my Grandparents farm planting and harvesting fruits and vegetables. That was good honest dirty hard work as well. But great fun driving the farm tractors and being the boss of the high school girls picking strawberries. Before that of course I had a paper route. Ok, so now since December 1989 I have been learning myself how to and writing blind accessible PC dos and Windows games and utilities as a hobby. BFN Jim A Buckeye is just a worthless nut. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Michael, Thank you very much. I really appreciate the very kind things that you said about me and my games. Keep up the great work at college and take Doc for a walk. Thanks again. BFN - Original Message - Hey, Jim. I can say alot of things about you but I will say one thing that say it all. I enjoy all your games and have alot of highly respect for you. As you are one of my good friends and one of my game creater I have to say thanks for all that you do and all of your time in your games. Everytime I talk about accessible games for the blind I always talk about your website and games aswell. I have told you before on the phone and now I will say it on the list. I think you are the living legend of accessible game creater for the blind. Even though I have alot of school work do for college I still take the time to play your games. Don't anyone get upset about this because I try to play other people games aswell but I still enjoy playing baseball. THANKS JIM. -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. Jim An MM is a candy with a happy climax. - Spock (paraphrased) j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Jim, Very interesting. I didn't know what you did for a living before. I'm glad you shared that with us. Smile. On 4/13/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I lived in the first house behind the bank on Bellfield Avenue, which is off of Cedar Avenue just out of University Circle. I could see Case University out my bedroom window and it was close to a mile walk to the Cleveland Sight Center. I had to be at the bus stop by 6:30 to catch the 32c Cedar bus. I would get off at Taylor boulevard and wait for the Taylor bus, which would drop me off the other side of I90 near east a hundred and eighty fifth street at about 7:45. So I walk across the frozen pedestrian bridge over I90 and back up South Waterloo road to the company Fastener Service. Fasteners are nuts, bolts, screws, washers, rivets etc. Fastener Service bought bulk wholesale and sold smaller quantities to local companies. Parts went from so small that thousands would fit in the palm of your hand and weigh almost nothing to a single steel washer that weighed a pound.Or bolts 2 foot long and an inch and a half in diameter. Or a nut seven and a half inches across. Some of those were specialty parts to places like NASA, Diamond Shamrock, Rockwell etc. I did work my way up to warehouse foreman, but my job was still toting boxes and kegs of greasy, dirty steel parts around a non cooled or and barely heated warehouse to fill, package and ship orders. The kegs could weigh up to two hundred and fifty pounds. I was just barely legally blind due to tunnel vision, so I did everything including using the battery operated three wheel walk behind one ton rated fork lift to load and unload trucks. It was a hot, dirty, nasty job. They even kept a supply of salt tablets on hand. Good thing too as I needed them on occasion. But hey from carrying all that steel around all day for years, I never lost an arm wrestling match back then. Before that I worked the kitchen etc in my Dad's bar in Glenndale Arizona. Not really much fun working a hot kitchen in Glenndale slash Phoenix Arizona either. Before that I worked shipping and receiving slash plant gopher for the repair department in a nice cool clean electronics factory named LFE. They produced analog meters of all types. You know like the toe meters used for front end alignment in cars to refrigeration control meters or the UV meters in sound equipment. At that same time my Dad, Brother and I built a house and sold it for profit. Before that I was an external automotive reconditioning specialist. Yep, dried cars at the car wash. And at the same time bought pounds and sold ounces of pot. Before that I worked on my Grandparents farm planting and harvesting fruits and vegetables. That was good honest dirty hard work as well. But great fun driving the farm tractors and being the boss of the high school girls picking strawberries. Before that of course I had a paper route. Ok, so now since December 1989 I have been learning myself how to and writing blind accessible PC dos and Windows games and utilities as a hobby. BFN Jim A Buckeye is just a worthless nut. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
How much spare time do you have, Michael? Maybe you can make games for the blind, too? I'll tell you that if you have a full time job, it's not just the 40 hours a week you spend at it. I leave at around 7 in the morning, get home at almost 6 at night. Then there's dinner, taking care of some stuff around the house, taking care of the dog guide, some?? time to try dealing with the hundreds of Emails I receive daily, then time for bed. That's 5 days a week. Then there are weekend chores, church, and something usually crops up like going to the grocery store, some yard work during the spring and summer, and then my other half says that I should be spending more time with her. Creating games for the blind is a long time consuming bit of work, and I don't have the time, even if I did have the knowledge and skill. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: michael barnes c...@samobile.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Pipe 3 Hey, Thomas. The reason someone should keep making games for the blind is because if you and others don't do it then nobody will. I do have to say that I am glad people like Jim who does kitchensinc.net games do it for the enjoyment of making people happy to be able to play games without sight. I do know that sometimes when a person gets a job or have a family they can't take alot of time to work on games. But if they was to set aside time to make games for the blind then I know it can be done. People know that when they make a game for the blind there is no money init so why quit. Once again I have enjoy playing accessible games for the blind since I no longer can play video games that are not accessible. Since I lost my sight two years ago I thought that my games playing days was over until Jim Kitchens show me the audyssey list then I learn about all types of games I can play. I do myself have a mac but I still lean on the windows for games and other type of things. -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hey, Charles. I do understand that because I am in college now. I try to find some time to play some games at least a couple of times a week. I hope everyone who makes games for the blind don't stop. I do respect and think alot of those who take their time out of their daily life and create games. I don't know how to create games that is why you will see me give ideas out on the list for those who do. -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Charles, That's exactly the point I think people often miss. It is much much more complicated than just the 40 hours a week a person spends at his her job. They forget people have to have some sort of personal life too which is as equally important as the day time job. Once you put an average person's schedule into perspective it becomes pretty clear why there aren't more accessible games then there currently are. Think about it people. A guy gets up around 7:00 AM, shaves, takes a shower, sits down and eats breakfast. Then, he catches a ride to work which means some amount of travel time from home to work. He then works at least 8 hours from say 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM, and then reverses the process taking a ride back home which includes more travel time. He gets home sometime between 5:00 PM and 6:00 PM, and soon after has dinner with his wife and kids. By now it is between 6:30 and 7:00 and he spends an hour or two with his wife and kids watching a movie, television show, playing a board game, or something that includes the entire family. Before he knows it it is now 9:00 PM or so and he sits down to read his e-mail or work on some games. Problem is after putting in a full day of work and a couple hours of family time he is going to start feeling tired and cranky. I can tell you from personal experience the very last thing he wants to do is open up his software compiler and start working on some complex piece of code like Mysteries of the Ancients at that hour of the night. So while he might technically now have the time to work on it the best part of his energy and consentration was used up on just getting through the day. That leaves us with the weekend. True, the developer can get a fresh start on it on Saturday, but there are usually other things that crop up that requires his attention. Maybe the wife wants to go out shopping, maybe there is yardwork to do, maybe the kids have a ball game they want you to attend, etc. There is always something needing this guys attention and games more often then not get put on the back burner while life, real life, takes top priority. So no there isn't a great deal of time just laying around to create games when you have both a job and a family life too. Cheers! On 4/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: How much spare time do you have, Michael? Maybe you can make games for the blind, too? I'll tell you that if you have a full time job, it's not just the 40 hours a week you spend at it. I leave at around 7 in the morning, get home at almost 6 at night. Then there's dinner, taking care of some stuff around the house, taking care of the dog guide, some?? time to try dealing with the hundreds of Emails I receive daily, then time for bed. That's 5 days a week. Then there are weekend chores, church, and something usually crops up like going to the grocery store, some yard work during the spring and summer, and then my other half says that I should be spending more time with her. Creating games for the blind is a long time consuming bit of work, and I don't have the time, even if I did have the knowledge and skill. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
There is then the fact that if the developer is blind himself, everything takes considderably more energy. while I fully appreciate what Tom is saying, this does not seem to be half the case with indi developers of graphical games. odbob, webmaster of the retroremakes site and game developer is quite able to have a full time job, spend time with his wife, update the retroremakes website and produce several games a year (admittedly often small arcade games, but games none the less often with many enemies or modes of play). What however is the difference? oddbob is not visually impared. Odds are that his travel time doesn't leave him feeling half as bushed for need to concentrate, nor does his job require him to put in as much effort in listening to a screen reader, heck even walking around an office of pouring himself coffee. This is a position I'm advocating in my thesis, that one of the chief (and thus far unacknolidged), characteristics of a disability is not merely being able to do or not do thing x, but the amount of extra time and effort it takes to do a specific thing. This is why I'd advocate any disabled person who wants to do anything outside his/her work get a part time job, (certainly my brothers' celicitor's work is, and I will myself when it becomes necessary), though obviously for financial reasons this isn't always possible. The truth is, plenty of people do! program games in their spare time and have a full time job and family, - but not with a disability as well. This is one of the chief differences I've noticed betwene audiogame developers and developers of graphical independent games, that audiogame devs tend to give up when they have full time jobs and other responsabilities where as indi game devs don't, however audiogame devs are usually visually imapred as well which would account nicely for this difference. This isn't intended as a cryticism only as an observation, and also possibly a considderation for anyone who wants to actually try developing games generally. The normal five day week standard pluss free time is simply unreasonable when someone has a disability as well, and I will be arguing in my thesis that the government should acknolidge this in distribution of bennifits. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Dark, Yeah, that's definitely a good point. Its not just the fact of the 40 hour work week, having a family life, but everything does take a little more time just because of our disability in a lot of cases. Here in the USA, for example, its generally assumed you can see to drive a car. That means public transport services in and around the USA aren't as good as they are over in Europe unless you go to New York City or something like that. So for me catching a ride with anyone other than my wife is pretty difficult. I either have to pay a taxi service which means waiting up to 30 minutes for the taxi to show up, or if I'm in a city like Canton or Cleveland making sure I'm at the bus stop at the right time and place to get picked up on time. Just in general travel alone I have to go out of my way to get transport, to be somewhere on time, where someone sighted like my wife can simply get in the car and drive straight there. I know when I lived in Dayton Ohio I can clearly remember plenty of cases where it took me an hour to get somewhere like the mall that would normally be a 10 minute drive. So for us a lot of time is just simply waisted on simple things like getting to and from the store on our own. Then, there is general accessibility issues. Last year Microsoft released Visual Studio 2010. I upgraded to it only to discover NVDA, Window-Eyes, Jaws, you name it would not work with it at all. Totally unaccessible. Finally, GW Micro released Window-Eyes 7.5 and a lot of the access issues with Visual Studio have been fixed and I can at least get access to the development studio software now. Things like that really throws a big monkey rench into my life as a programmer as I either have to spend extra time trying to figure out how to use this mostly inaccessible piece of software, or sit around and wait until my screen reader manufacturer comes out with a patch or upgrade which makes it more accessible. Those kinds of things do effect how I create games for sure. Cheers! On 4/12/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: There is then the fact that if the developer is blind himself, everything takes considderably more energy. while I fully appreciate what Tom is saying, this does not seem to be half the case with indi developers of graphical games. odbob, webmaster of the retroremakes site and game developer is quite able to have a full time job, spend time with his wife, update the retroremakes website and produce several games a year (admittedly often small arcade games, but games none the less often with many enemies or modes of play). What however is the difference? oddbob is not visually impared. Odds are that his travel time doesn't leave him feeling half as bushed for need to concentrate, nor does his job require him to put in as much effort in listening to a screen reader, heck even walking around an office of pouring himself coffee. This is a position I'm advocating in my thesis, that one of the chief (and thus far unacknolidged), characteristics of a disability is not merely being able to do or not do thing x, but the amount of extra time and effort it takes to do a specific thing. This is why I'd advocate any disabled person who wants to do anything outside his/her work get a part time job, (certainly my brothers' celicitor's work is, and I will myself when it becomes necessary), though obviously for financial reasons this isn't always possible. The truth is, plenty of people do! program games in their spare time and have a full time job and family, - but not with a disability as well. This is one of the chief differences I've noticed betwene audiogame developers and developers of graphical independent games, that audiogame devs tend to give up when they have full time jobs and other responsabilities where as indi game devs don't, however audiogame devs are usually visually imapred as well which would account nicely for this difference. This isn't intended as a cryticism only as an observation, and also possibly a considderation for anyone who wants to actually try developing games generally. The normal five day week standard pluss free time is simply unreasonable when someone has a disability as well, and I will be arguing in my thesis that the government should acknolidge this in distribution of bennifits. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Actually tom, while travel and access issues are certainly a considderation, that wasn't precisely my point. One easy example of what I mean (and one I use in the introduction to my thesis), is pouring a glass of water. Betwene desire for a drink and that desire's satisfaction the sighted person has very few steps. 1, locate a glass which can be done instantaniously no matter where it is so long as it is in plane view. 2, turn on the tap. 3, pour in water to the level required, a thing a sighted person can judge without even paying attention sinse the connection betwene their visual cortex and spacial awareness is perfectly able to judge this with no conscious thought or need for concentration at all, indeed they may use the time to think about other matters. For a blind person, locating the glass will be a conscious exercise of spacial mapping or memory, remembering and placing themselves in relation to it, and pouring the water will require a continuous concentration of the relation of their finger to the flow into the glass, and even when they get it, they have to be careful where they put it and retain it's position in mind, or simply continue to hold it. These are all fairly trivial things and things which I imagine everyone on this list does every day. My point however, is that the amount of concentration and mental effort required is simply in and of itself greater when a person is visually impared, this is simply a biological limitation beyond what is normal, (I do have a deffinition of normal but that would take some time to explain), and what society considders normal, and is ultimately a contributing factor in why someone like oddbob of retroremakes can have a job, a wife and children and! produce games and a website blog, while a visually impared person can't. this isn't to say a disabled person can't do things, only that those things take considderably more time and effort because of their disability and in any calculation of what is possible in life, or what sort of responsability a government has to it's citizens, these factors must be taken into account, which they currently aren't! Btw, I agree on public transport in continental europe, but in the uk it's pretty dire, especially the train system, mostly due to some tortuous privatization rules and ridiculous over pricing. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Dark, Ah, I get your point now. Well, that may effect someones ability to write games, plus have a wife, plus work, etc but I do disagree with it to some point. After all, I do manage to essentually carry on USA Games even though I have several other commitments as well each and every day. Although, all of that does come at a price usually in the form of added stress and less time to relax. Thing is I don't think I would consider filling a cup of water that much of an extra stress as I don't exactly consentrate on what I'm doing while I'm doing it. Once my finger starts getting wet I turn the tap off, and I can do that pretty much with little conscious thought or extra effort. However, I'm sure the principle of the thing does apply somewhere in my life, but I'm so use to these things I no longer think of them as extra steps to acomplish x, y, z. Cheers! On 4/12/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Actually tom, while travel and access issues are certainly a considderation, that wasn't precisely my point. One easy example of what I mean (and one I use in the introduction to my thesis), is pouring a glass of water. Betwene desire for a drink and that desire's satisfaction the sighted person has very few steps. 1, locate a glass which can be done instantaniously no matter where it is so long as it is in plane view. 2, turn on the tap. 3, pour in water to the level required, a thing a sighted person can judge without even paying attention sinse the connection betwene their visual cortex and spacial awareness is perfectly able to judge this with no conscious thought or need for concentration at all, indeed they may use the time to think about other matters. For a blind person, locating the glass will be a conscious exercise of spacial mapping or memory, remembering and placing themselves in relation to it, and pouring the water will require a continuous concentration of the relation of their finger to the flow into the glass, and even when they get it, they have to be careful where they put it and retain it's position in mind, or simply continue to hold it. These are all fairly trivial things and things which I imagine everyone on this list does every day. My point however, is that the amount of concentration and mental effort required is simply in and of itself greater when a person is visually impared, this is simply a biological limitation beyond what is normal, (I do have a deffinition of normal but that would take some time to explain), and what society considders normal, and is ultimately a contributing factor in why someone like oddbob of retroremakes can have a job, a wife and children and! produce games and a website blog, while a visually impared person can't. this isn't to say a disabled person can't do things, only that those things take considderably more time and effort because of their disability and in any calculation of what is possible in life, or what sort of responsability a government has to it's citizens, these factors must be taken into account, which they currently aren't! Btw, I agree on public transport in continental europe, but in the uk it's pretty dire, especially the train system, mostly due to some tortuous privatization rules and ridiculous over pricing. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Tom. This isn't to say such things can't be got used to, only that the accompanying effort is vastly different. Take mobility. How easy would it be for you if you needed to go to a new place? How much extra concentration would it take learning your way around? However good your mental mapping and mobility skills are, they cannot compare to someone who simply can walk in and with no efort instantly see where a given thing is, or trace their position from a wall map which they can once again instantly find. They will also never have even the remote possibility of injuring or embarrassing themselves by walking into an obstacle in normal lighting conditions. It's actually a bit of an irony that because we make the effort so constantly it is a thing we do not considder sinse the amount of effort we expend in something is normal to us, but in my own considderation and evaluation of a hole range of activities, it does strike me that there is a huge difference in degrees of effort involved, and a difference not acknolidged by many people. As I said, this would also explain why so many indi developers seem to be able to out perform audiogame devs while under the same pressures, that and of course the use of more convenient tools as short cuts. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Dark, To me being blind does seem to take more time and concentration and add more stress. Just little things like when I get out of my computer chair I can not tell you how many times I was still thinking about code and did not pay attention to where I was going and ran into the corner of something or the corner of the wall. Have split my head open quite a few times doing that. And little things like a pill rolling off of the counter and needing to get down and crawl around looking for it. Lots of little things like that that I can think of. And yes my last job took me an hour and a half to get there on a bus and the same to get home. That was a twelve hour day just for a crap sweat shop job. I got my ex a job there, bought her a car and cut the drive time down to 20 minutes each way. Of course everyone has crosses to bare in their lives right? BFN Jim Why did the bird cross the kitchen? Too eat, too eat! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hey, Jim. I can say alot of things about you but I will say one thing that say it all. I enjoy all your games and have alot of highly respect for you. As you are one of my good friends and one of my game creater I have to say thanks for all that you do and all of your time in your games. Everytime I talk about accessible games for the blind I always talk about your website and games aswell. I have told you before on the phone and now I will say it on the list. I think you are the living legend of accessible game creater for the blind. Even though I have alot of school work do for college I still take the time to play your games. Don't anyone get upset about this because I try to play other people games aswell but I still enjoy playing baseball. THANKS JIM. -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] who has the time? - Re: Pipe 3
Hi Jim, Oh, I here you there. Now, that is something I think we all can understand. I've been there, and I think most of us have at one time or another. Losing things, trying to find them and of course the transport time to get from place to place is simply rediculous. For instance, I remember this one time my friends and I were going to go out and celibrate a birthday or something at the Spaghetti Warehouse in Dayton. Normally this wouldn't be more than a 10 minute drive by car, but since all three of us were blind it took us about an hour and a half to actually get there. We left Wright State on the 4:30 bus, took it downtown, and then had to wait for another bus to show up at the stop at 5:15. We took that bus to a bus stop near the SpaghettiWarehouse, and had to walk something like three blocks just to reach the place. Finally, we go in get seated, and the waitress hands us our menus. This introduces problem number two. All of us are blind. The one with the most sight was low vision, but still couldn't read the menu. So we had to ask the waitress to have someone read our menus so we could pick out our orders. This could have been solved if they actually had braille menus, but no such luck. Finally, around 7:00 we left SpaghettiWarehouse, and reversed the trip back to Wright State. It was well passed 8:00 and very close to 9:00 before I got back to my dorm and all of that effort was just to dine out for an evening. It took me round figures four hours to get there, eat, and come back. That's a bit insane considering I went out on dinner dates with college girls that could drive and we did that same trip in about an hour or so. So being blind definitely does take more time over all. Cheers! On 4/12/11, Jim Kitchen j...@kitchensinc.net wrote: Hi Dark, To me being blind does seem to take more time and concentration and add more stress. Just little things like when I get out of my computer chair I can not tell you how many times I was still thinking about code and did not pay attention to where I was going and ran into the corner of something or the corner of the wall. Have split my head open quite a few times doing that. And little things like a pill rolling off of the counter and needing to get down and crawl around looking for it. Lots of little things like that that I can think of. And yes my last job took me an hour and a half to get there on a bus and the same to get home. That was a twelve hour day just for a crap sweat shop job. I got my ex a job there, bought her a car and cut the drive time down to 20 minutes each way. Of course everyone has crosses to bare in their lives right? BFN Jim Why did the bird cross the kitchen? Too eat, too eat! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
