Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard, 4.5 forJAWS
Hmmm dave, there has been neither collusion nor is intended (certainly on my part), any hostility. I merely wished myself to make the point that you cannot instantly equate jaws with total access for every visually impared person, and because of that other screen readers or sapi might be incorporated into the program, which I'm sure is extremely good. when I was testing the access features introduced in Neilsbauer's space stratogy game smugglers 4, for various complex reasons the initial release only worked with hal and not jaws. Had I said well it works with Hal, so doesn't need anything else I'm pretty sure people would've told me exactly the same thing. It's not a question of collusion or any sort of cryticism against jaws generally, merely an observation of the fact that not everyone uses jaws, so assuming jaws = universal access is not necessarily a wise thing. Imagine for instance that I wrote an accessible game of Risk which I only produced on Mack. If I claimed this is universally accessible to everyone! I'd obviously be wrong, sinse not every blind person owns a mac, and obviously the first question people would ask is where is the pc version there is really litle need for such emotion about this question. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard, 4.5 forJAWS
Hi dark. The main difference here is that winboard is free and open source and anyone can add to it if they wish. Smugglers 3 is soled and the maker actually loses money if they don't support enough screen readers. I'm sure the developer appreciates if people use their product, but I'm sure couldn't care less for demands of support for x, y and z. They already coded in the features that they wanted in winboard. Here the focus was on adding support for playing against many advanced chess engines, instead of mucking around with screen reader API's which wouldn't really add any functionality for a jaws user. I agree that jaws can not be considered universally accessible, simply because a license costs hundreds of dollars. On the other hand supporting a free solution like sapi or even supporting a screen reader like nvda would minimize the barriers to playing. Though you can always argue that (e.g) with sapi there is also not universal access, because of the issue with installing sapi voices on a 64 bit windows 7 system or because someone didn't like the options availible to them to use as speech output. On 8/15/2011 2:30 PM, dark wrote: Hmmm dave, there has been neither collusion nor is intended (certainly on my part), any hostility. I merely wished myself to make the point that you cannot instantly equate jaws with total access for every visually impared person, and because of that other screen readers or sapi might be incorporated into the program, which I'm sure is extremely good. when I was testing the access features introduced in Neilsbauer's space stratogy game smugglers 4, for various complex reasons the initial release only worked with hal and not jaws. Had I said well it works with Hal, so doesn't need anything else I'm pretty sure people would've told me exactly the same thing. It's not a question of collusion or any sort of cryticism against jaws generally, merely an observation of the fact that not everyone uses jaws, so assuming jaws = universal access is not necessarily a wise thing. Imagine for instance that I wrote an accessible game of Risk which I only produced on Mack. If I claimed this is universally accessible to everyone! I'd obviously be wrong, sinse not every blind person owns a mac, and obviously the first question people would ask is where is the pc version there is really litle need for such emotion about this question. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS
Hi tom. Amusingly enough, this is actually what I said when dave made a similar anouncement on audiogames.net. At that point he did talk about adding sapi support possibly support for other screen readers as well, though whether this is going to happen I don't know. What bothers me, is that the two other major accessible chess programs do not have this limitation. both Kchess programs work with window eyes and Hal (and probably would with nvda sinse the screen is fairly symple, pluss they have lots of voicing as well), and Ian humphries bg chess works with sapi. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS Hi Dave, What about those of us who don't use Jaws? Is there any plans in the works to support other screen readers like NVDA, Window-/Eyes, System Access, or perhaps add generic Sapi 5 support? The reason I ask is while I truly appreciate what you are doing I'm not going to download a demo of another screen reader just to play a game when I already have two perfectly good screen readers on my system already. I have Window-Eyes 7.5 and I also use NVDA 2011. Both of them have com based APIs like Jaws and I personally feel that if you are going to create a self-voicing game like Winboard it is only fair that other screen readers are supported as not everyone in the world uses Jaws. Thanks. On 8/9/11, David D. Acevedo chessma...@att.net wrote: Hello Friends, I am pleased to announce the release of the first state of the art Chess program for the blind called Winboard 4.5 for JAWS. This is a modification of the popular WinBoard/Xboard program. This program is for the blind, low visioned and persons who can not use a mouse and is free software under the GNU Public License. The program uses the JAWS screen reader to recite the moves, positions and other board conditions and is completely keyboard accessible. It can connect to Internet Chess Servers such as FICS (Free Internet Chess Server at freechess.org) where members and guests play in real time. Available languages in addition to English are German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and Russian and translators are welcomed to the project. The program provides Chess engine opponents and can output positional analysis with today's strongest Chess engines. The Houdini engine is just released and IS the world's strongest chess program and is free and may be added to Winboard as can any Winboard or UCI protocol Chess engine. The program is provided with two Chess engines, the immensely strong Fruit engine, for standard chess and analysis, and FairyMax, that plays some variant types of chess. Many other variants are compatible, some for the very first time in any Chess GUI. These include Chinese Chess, Shogi, Fischer Random, Losers, Atomic, Crazyhouse and 8 by 10 boards for Capablanca, Gothic and Janus variants. Winboard 4.5 for JAWS uses the standardized PGN format into which all the games of the today and of the great master may be found. Winboard 4.5 for JAWS is free and available at the Winboard forum at the link at the very end of this paragraph. The download link to the program follows the first link on the page which directs readers to the Freedom Scientific Site in case they need a demo version of JAWS, which is fully functioning for 45 minutes and then required a system reboot. I am eager to answer all questions and provide personal help to use the program. Best Regards, Dave Acevedo http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewtopic.php?f=19t=51528start=1 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS
HI Dark, Yes, i know. That was really my point. Winboard may be a very good Chess program, but if its only using Jaws then it is, sorry to say, not very accessible in comparison to alternative Chess programs. Jaws may still be the leading screen reader today, but Window-Eyes, state side, has caught up over the last few years and Jaws market share is constantly shrinking. Part of that is do to the fact Window-Eyes now has scripting support since 7.0, and of course NVDA has grabbed up a huge number of VI computer users who can't afford to pay out ragious prices for Jaws or Window-Eyes.I know I am personally looking at switching to NVDA for that exact reason myself. I simply can't afford to pay out for SMA plans right now. The thing is the screen reader market is changing. Developers who arent' staying on top of that are bound to get requests like support NVDA, support Window-Eyes, support Hal, whatever because Jaws is losing the market shar they once held. Its time that devs start realizing that and beginning to support alternative screen reader solutions as I don't see Jaws ever gaining back the market shares they once had. Especially, since their business practices, sue happy attitude, has turned a lot of people against them. Cheers! On 8/14/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Amusingly enough, this is actually what I said when dave made a similar anouncement on audiogames.net. At that point he did talk about adding sapi support possibly support for other screen readers as well, though whether this is going to happen I don't know. What bothers me, is that the two other major accessible chess programs do not have this limitation. both Kchess programs work with window eyes and Hal (and probably would with nvda sinse the screen is fairly symple, pluss they have lots of voicing as well), and Ian humphries bg chess works with sapi. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS
Hello Thomas, I have had top mauch tech support with Freedom Scientific, and I did have problems where when I bought an xp pro laptop and I had to buy and xp pro version but at that time I did not have a backup. I emailed a request to them just to see if it works to tell them that they could put there products in the university stores aro und the world and they commented what a fantastic idea. I am aware of the lawsutes that had been going on, and I will read everyones opinion but I don't have to agree with them the thing that I agree such as the pro versus standard thing because I have gone through that and the memory ram thing where if you swap a gb of ram you have to reactivate. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:42 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS HI Dark, Yes, i know. That was really my point. Winboard may be a very good Chess program, but if its only using Jaws then it is, sorry to say, not very accessible in comparison to alternative Chess programs. Jaws may still be the leading screen reader today, but Window-Eyes, state side, has caught up over the last few years and Jaws market share is constantly shrinking. Part of that is do to the fact Window-Eyes now has scripting support since 7.0, and of course NVDA has grabbed up a huge number of VI computer users who can't afford to pay out ragious prices for Jaws or Window-Eyes.I know I am personally looking at switching to NVDA for that exact reason myself. I simply can't afford to pay out for SMA plans right now. The thing is the screen reader market is changing. Developers who arent' staying on top of that are bound to get requests like support NVDA, support Window-Eyes, support Hal, whatever because Jaws is losing the market shar they once held. Its time that devs start realizing that and beginning to support alternative screen reader solutions as I don't see Jaws ever gaining back the market shares they once had. Especially, since their business practices, sue happy attitude, has turned a lot of people against them. Cheers! On 8/14/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Amusingly enough, this is actually what I said when dave made a similar anouncement on audiogames.net. At that point he did talk about adding sapi support possibly support for other screen readers as well, though whether this is going to happen I don't know. What bothers me, is that the two other major accessible chess programs do not have this limitation. both Kchess programs work with window eyes and Hal (and probably would with nvda sinse the screen is fairly symple, pluss they have lots of voicing as well), and Ian humphries bg chess works with sapi. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS
Hi Sky, That may be, but that really wasn't my point. My point was that Jaws is losing market shares to competing screen readers like Window-Eyes and NVDA, and there is still some opinion among Jaws users that Jaws is still number one and nobody else's screen reader counts. That's totally untrue. More so today than 10 years ago as Jaws isn't as popular as it once was. I personally know of a handful of people who were life long Jaws users just up and switch to Window-Eyes 7 because things like Office support was better, it now has scripting, and other features etc that they just thought made it a better screen reader for them. So they stopped using Jaws and switched to Window-Eyes. Weather Jaws is or isn't better than Window-Eyes, NVDA, or Hal isn't the issue though. Software developers now days need to be able to support all the major screen readers because Jaws isn't the only screen access solution being used. Either that or use something generic like Sapi support. Cheers! On 8/14/11, Sky Mundell s...@shaw.ca wrote: Hello Thomas, I have had top mauch tech support with Freedom Scientific, and I did have problems where when I bought an xp pro laptop and I had to buy and xp pro version but at that time I did not have a backup. I emailed a request to them just to see if it works to tell them that they could put there products in the university stores aro und the world and they commented what a fantastic idea. I am aware of the lawsutes that had been going on, and I will read everyones opinion but I don't have to agree with them the thing that I agree such as the pro versus standard thing because I have gone through that and the memory ram thing where if you swap a gb of ram you have to reactivate. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard, 4.5 forJAWS
He he, I smell an collusion here. Not only that, an agenda . That's cute that men still do that even when they are all grown up, he he, that's cute. You and Audiogamers take your Major KChess and Major BGChess and use them, they have SAPI support and can save a game. That's all you need to play chess over email or instant message we admit. Oh and by the way, you have JAWS, ...don't tell me you don't. Further, I have NVDA. I introduced NVDA to a blind friend for the first time. I didn't expect this, especially here among programmers. This is an advanced Chess program. I'm not asking you to buy JAWS, get Winboard and go become a Grand Master with all of the first of its kind Chess functions it has for the blind for the very first time. I'm asking you to spread the word. There has been NOTHING like it on the Whole Earth in ALL of time since Adam until before we released it on September 9, 2009.Here is the source. You're programmers, I am not. I only conceived of the project to repair the broken father code called WinBoard for JAWS. Winboard 4.5 for JAWS is now an extremely perfect chess tool for the blind and low sighted and those who can not use a mouse and JAWS is still the most used screen reader, for now and it certainly was when we started. We have nothing to do with Freedom Scientific. They did not conceive of WinBoard for JAWS, a Winboarder did, we are Winboarders :). I have talked to the programmer about NVDA, HAL and Windows Eyes and SAPI, or he talked to me about it, I forgot. However it's obvious he is very busy with some other Winboard or chess related stuff. He has been handed all future development of WinBoard by the author Tim Mann but he will respond to anyone at the Winboard forum. But if you want to make it sound like we purposely are denying Windows Eyes and the other reader users advanced chess he will make you look silly real fast. He's sharp. He's a master programmer and a research physicist and one of the world's foremost chess engine and chess client programmers. Do remember please that Winboard 4.5 for JAWS is free, this is not a competition. Talk to H.G. Muller or advertise the KChess or? What? yes... fix Winboard yourself the way you like it :). Everybody I talked to today was grumpy! Here is the source for WinBoard and the JAWS version which is inside of it, Boy! http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/xboard/?C=M;O=A --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Free Chess Program for the Blind - Winboard 4.5 forJAWS
Dark and Thomas, asking to add aditional support is one thing, insisting on it is something completely different. While I am not a jaws user, winboard is much more advanced than anything out there currently for the blind market and I'll use a jaws demo if I want the features of winboard. As I said earlier, add support for your own screen reader yourself or at least ask nicely. The developer is not getting payed for this and I'm sure couldn't care less if you use winboard or not if you whine like this. The fact that winboard is open source means it is a community project. Stop talking and start doing if you feel so strong about it. On 8/14/2011 6:41 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: HI Dark, Yes, i know. That was really my point. Winboard may be a very good Chess program, but if its only using Jaws then it is, sorry to say, not very accessible in comparison to alternative Chess programs. Jaws may still be the leading screen reader today, but Window-Eyes, state side, has caught up over the last few years and Jaws market share is constantly shrinking. Part of that is do to the fact Window-Eyes now has scripting support since 7.0, and of course NVDA has grabbed up a huge number of VI computer users who can't afford to pay out ragious prices for Jaws or Window-Eyes.I know I am personally looking at switching to NVDA for that exact reason myself. I simply can't afford to pay out for SMA plans right now. The thing is the screen reader market is changing. Developers who arent' staying on top of that are bound to get requests like support NVDA, support Window-Eyes, support Hal, whatever because Jaws is losing the market shar they once held. Its time that devs start realizing that and beginning to support alternative screen reader solutions as I don't see Jaws ever gaining back the market shares they once had. Especially, since their business practices, sue happy attitude, has turned a lot of people against them. Cheers! On 8/14/11, darkd...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. Amusingly enough, this is actually what I said when dave made a similar anouncement on audiogames.net. At that point he did talk about adding sapi support possibly support for other screen readers as well, though whether this is going to happen I don't know. What bothers me, is that the two other major accessible chess programs do not have this limitation. both Kchess programs work with window eyes and Hal (and probably would with nvda sinse the screen is fairly symple, pluss they have lots of voicing as well), and Ian humphries bg chess works with sapi. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
