Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-19 Thread Ben
Hi tom,
If you want, I could help with music and stuff, if you ever wanted to add
new characters...

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 17 July 2011 01:32
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc
thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

Hi Dark,

You are absolutely right. We have in large part alienated the
mainstream simply by declaring ourselves accessible games, blind
games, etc. As you pointed out many games could be adapted to suit
sighted players needs. Even if it is nothing more complex than a text
based UI.

For instance, you know I am working on a WWE wrestling game, and it
will largely be text based. Well, I know for a fact other such games
exist like Piledriver and Wrestling League Manager which were written
by and played by sighted mainstream gamers. I'm going to take that
idea one step forward and add background ambience, entrance music,
start and end bells for the matches, and perhaps a few grunts etc when
people are slammed, kicked, chopped, knocked down, etc. I'm also
considering Jim Kitchens request that I add Sapi 5 support as well.
Although, it happens to be accessible there is no reason I couldn't
market it to a mainstream community as well, because other than say
the Sapi support there is nothing that would indicate that this game
is anything other than a straight up text game with some audio for
ambience.

STFC is another prime example. Although, I wrote it as an audio game I
could in theory rewrite it with a text based UI, add screen
reader/Sapi support, and market it both to blind and mainstream
markets. I'm sure that some sighted players would be just as
interested to play it as we are provided I add some text to the
screen. It would have at the bare minimum some interests with sighted
Trek fans with a text based user interface as I would not be marketing
it specifically as a blind thing.

Cheers!


On 7/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 this is true, and is in fact the reason i no longer played sryth sinse it
 seemed the gm was getting far too greedy, sticking in areas that you
 couldn't get through without the uba gear from tallys workshop and
expecting
 people to pay more than the initial subscription which by rights given
that
 the game had over 2000 should've been more than enough).

 one thought I have had however, is that many audio games can pretty much
 double as textual or graphical ones with litle work on the interface.

 People stil pay for gamebooks, text games, interactive fiction or even
ascii
 games like rogue and angband.

 Given this, if a game like entombed had a basic text interface that
printed
 on screen output in text, with either a couple of arrows or words to
 indicate direction so that people did not have to rely upon the wind
sound,
 you have a perfectly playable game.

 che could probably do a similar thing with the card room by adding basic
 card graphics,  though with che the name blind adrenaline is a litle
 against him in attracting people's interest.

 The problem is however, people would not look at it as a normal game, but
as
 a blind game, meaning it'd need a deal of rewording on it's website to
 appeal to others.

 audio games similarly, can appeal to sited people if they are presented
not
 as blind games but as experimental new games with a revolutionary
 interface Look at what pappasanga as a good example.

 I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if David greenwood
 rewrote the description of shades of doom to remove the word accessible
and
 subscribed it to one of the online download resellers like lulu to be sold
 along side more usual graphical games.

 I've had friends who are great doom players who were impressed by the
 atmosphere and action in shades simply because! of the lack of visuals,
 however the perception that disabled individuals are of another species
and
 require their own special things, be that games, chairs, sticks or
 whatever.

 The amount of times someone has been shocked when i explain I use a
standard
 windows pc with a normal keyboard that does not have braille on the keys
or
 anything else.

 the sad truth is, if something includes the words accessible, or blind,
 people will not even try it. While this is obviously not a good thing
 socially, it is a truth that anyone trying to sell audio games to sited
 individuals needs to get used too.

 Beware the grue!

 Dark.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow

Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-19 Thread Thomas Ward
HI Dark,

Well said. In fact, I've truly enjoyed the discussions we have had
over the past few days as it has largely changed the direction of the
USA Games Interactive marketing strategy. One of those things to come
out of it is that it makes more business sense not to splash the fact
I'm a blind developer writing games for the blind all over the
website. Instead, if I make changes to my games that might appeal to
mainstream as well as other groups like deaf-blind players I could in
theory reclassify USA Games Interactive as an indi game developer
rather than an accessible games developer etc.

One thing you and I both agree on it is very difficult to overcome
mainstream stereotypes, and it is better if we begin finding
productive ways to make the public aware that we are people just like
them.  To help find ways to ease the transition from the he's blind
reaction to get them to see us as people who simply can't see, but are
otherwise fairly normal. That is assuming their is such a thing as
normal, but that's another issue for another time.

Anyway, as a game developer I can see some pretty simple ways to help
set USA Games on a course where blind and sighted gamers could
concievably encounter each other and mingle. If I created a browser
based game like Sryth, for example, I could make money while at the
same time produce a style of game that is cross-platform, accessible,
and equally enjoyed by blind, deaf-blind, and mainstream gamers alike.
Its a simple matter of using the lowest common denominator approach.
Use the one thing we all have in common and build up from it.

I don't know how productive adding graphics would be to my games as
Che said it was pretty much a failure when he tried it with his card
games. Still it might be worth a try for some games just to see where
it leads. Unfortunately, anything as complex as Mysteries of the
Ancients would be out simply because I'd have to compete with the real
Tomb Raider games which are already far more complex then I'm able to
program myself. The graphics technology in the Legend engine used in
Underworld, Legend, and Anniversary is pretty fantastic I'm told.
Nobody is going to pay for a knock-off of Tomb Raider when they can
buy the real thing.

Cheers!


On 7/17/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 both of these are true, and in fact i'd not thought of stfc myself.

 Being as I play gamebooks, i obviously come into contact with a lot of
 people who play games with a text ui only.

 more of these are being released on platforms like the iphone everyday, and
 are becoming much more popular, in fact generally I've noticed that as I
 pod culture has increased, audio as an overall medium is making something of
 a come back, look at professional audio companies like graphic audio and big
 finish as examples, and that's not counting the huge number of ameter things
 out there do.

 it'd be gret if vi devs could take advantage of this situation, however that
 won't happen while sighted people refuse to play something sinse they assume
 it is for the blind!

 Afterall, in fairness most sighted people couldn't imagine using a computer
 or reading text without any vision at all, hence why I'm asked so often if I
 have a braille keyboard and whether that is  a normal laptop

 th0ough this is irritating, it's unfortunately a fact of life, but disabled
 people won't do anything about it without making some efforts to change
 things, and having blind devs sell games to sighted people is a good way.
 When I first went to uni, there was a chap called John who was in most of my
 lectures and became quite a good friend of mine.

 it wasn't until I'd known him for about 4 or 5 months that it suddenly
 turned out he was gay, and in fact i only found out because i met his
 boyfriend.

 I'd rather assumed that any gay man would be openly camp in some sort of
 way, so to find out john,  who if anything was quite the opposite of
 camp with a very sarcastic and abrasive sense of humour, was gay very much
 changed my perception entirely and made me realize there isn't any sort of
 over bearing difference betwene someone who was gay and someone streight.

 The same principle applies here, though even more so, sinse unlike being
 gay, blind people do! have visible differences which need overcoming, and
 this is something blind people themselves need to considder in their
 interactions with people,  sinse even if a person is completely
 unprejudiced, if they've never come into contact with anyone blind, they
 will at least be surprised.

 In fact getting people over the waaa! he's blind phase is something I've
 personally had to practice over a long while, and while it is! quite often
 irritating, it is a necessity.

 Btw, this is what the 4th chapter of my phd is on, the social aspect of
 disability but not merely how society gets in the way of disabled people,
 also what duties and concerns disabled people have towards others in society
 in the consciousness that 

Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-19 Thread dark

Hi tom.

This sounds great. I must admit if I ever get the time to create a game, 
it's actually a brouser based game I'd like to make, though i admit that's 
mostly because of my love of exploration and reading good descriptions, so I 
like this suggestion.


However, i do have another thought regarding Mota.

yes, compared to tombraider you could never create as good graphics,   
even compared to what other indi devs have done it would take quite 
considderable work.


however, there is the alternative approach, and the one followed by the 
developers of pappasanga.


Rather than present mota as a audio game for the blind present it as an 
interactive audio adventure like an audio drama, with cut scenes, plot, 
creepy sfx etc, but with the added twist of having no graphics.


I am confident this would worke for shades  of doom, given that the game has 
such a horrific atmosphere anyway, and as the sfx and such in mota progress 
it might work there as well.


Afterall, heroes progressing through lost temples was around in audio long 
before the Indiana jones films.


Beware the grue!
Dark. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-17 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

both of these are true, and in fact i'd not thought of stfc myself.

Being as I play gamebooks, i obviously come into contact with a lot of 
people who play games with a text ui only.


more of these are being released on platforms like the iphone everyday, and 
are becoming much more popular, in fact generally I've noticed that as I 
pod culture has increased, audio as an overall medium is making something of 
a come back, look at professional audio companies like graphic audio and big 
finish as examples, and that's not counting the huge number of ameter things 
out there do.


it'd be gret if vi devs could take advantage of this situation, however that 
won't happen while sighted people refuse to play something sinse they assume 
it is for the blind!


Afterall, in fairness most sighted people couldn't imagine using a computer 
or reading text without any vision at all, hence why I'm asked so often if I 
have a braille keyboard and whether that is  a normal laptop


th0ough this is irritating, it's unfortunately a fact of life, but disabled 
people won't do anything about it without making some efforts to change 
things, and having blind devs sell games to sighted people is a good way.
When I first went to uni, there was a chap called John who was in most of my 
lectures and became quite a good friend of mine.


it wasn't until I'd known him for about 4 or 5 months that it suddenly 
turned out he was gay, and in fact i only found out because i met his 
boyfriend.


I'd rather assumed that any gay man would be openly camp in some sort of 
way, so to find out john,  who if anything was quite the opposite of 
camp with a very sarcastic and abrasive sense of humour, was gay very much 
changed my perception entirely and made me realize there isn't any sort of 
over bearing difference betwene someone who was gay and someone streight.


The same principle applies here, though even more so, sinse unlike being 
gay, blind people do! have visible differences which need overcoming, and 
this is something blind people themselves need to considder in their 
interactions with people,  sinse even if a person is completely 
unprejudiced, if they've never come into contact with anyone blind, they 
will at least be surprised.


In fact getting people over the waaa! he's blind phase is something I've 
personally had to practice over a long while, and while it is! quite often 
irritating, it is a necessity.


Btw, this is what the 4th chapter of my phd is on, the social aspect of 
disability but not merely how society gets in the way of disabled people, 
also what duties and concerns disabled people have towards others in society 
in the consciousness that they are disabled.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread dark

Hi tom.

I didn't realize the us money situation was so insane currently, in fact 
from conversations we've had about the relative price of things like pizza 
over there it actually seems things are cheaper than they are over here.


then again, while our government is similarly selfish, they have at least 
now raised the minimum wage to £1600 a year, something in the region of 24 
thousand dollars.


i got my programmers' idea from my friend who is a professional web 
designer, and currently gets £23 thousand (he recently moved jobs from a 20 
thousand one), which is only about $32 thousand.


I can see why so many professionals from this country are moving to the us 
to get jobs,  even apart from the fact there are just no jobs at all 
around here,   a friend of mine with the iquivolent of 4 degrees 
including law and economics and a masters in human resources can only get 
temp office jobs, while I've seen people with doctorates working in 
supermarkits.


When you put it like that, commercial game developement does seem more 
difficult as self finance, though if Che is write and Jeremy could sell more 
games than I thought that might well balance things out.


there are however small indi developers who do support themselves, even down 
to single people working on one game like Sryth, or small teams like Core 
exiles, though nobody has done it with accessible games yet.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

Sure a person can make good money as a general Indi developer provided
the game is open to the general public which makes a world of
difference. If you have a million customers, and they each pay $1.00
towards that game you just cleared your first million on a game. It
usually doesn't work out that good, but Indi developers do tend to
fair pretty well simply because they have thousands of customers
rather than a select few hundred.

For instance, you said Entombed sold 500 copies. That's great, but
small potatoes compared to what most Indi developers make off of
downloads. An Indi developer can reasonably expect to sell that many
copies per month per product which makes game programming a decent
home job.

Sryth is another good example, and I'm glad you braught it up. While
it is certainly accessible its nothing more than a text based browser
game. I forget what I paid the last time for a guild membership,
perhaps $12, but if you spread that over 10,000 people you end up with
an anual income of $120,000 which is pretty darn good money for a
single online endever. I've thought of doing something similar because
it is a good income for little work, and there is more money in a
product accessible to everyone, and not much money in purely audio
based games.

Cheers!

On 7/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi tom.

 I didn't realize the us money situation was so insane currently, in fact
 from conversations we've had about the relative price of things like pizza
 over there it actually seems things are cheaper than they are over here.

 then again, while our government is similarly selfish, they have at least
 now raised the minimum wage to £1600 a year, something in the region of 24
 thousand dollars.

 i got my programmers' idea from my friend who is a professional web
 designer, and currently gets £23 thousand (he recently moved jobs from a 20
 thousand one), which is only about $32 thousand.

 I can see why so many professionals from this country are moving to the us
 to get jobs,  even apart from the fact there are just no jobs at all
 around here,   a friend of mine with the iquivolent of 4 degrees
 including law and economics and a masters in human resources can only get
 temp office jobs, while I've seen people with doctorates working in
 supermarkits.

 When you put it like that, commercial game developement does seem more
 difficult as self finance, though if Che is write and Jeremy could sell more
 games than I thought that might well balance things out.

 there are however small indi developers who do support themselves, even down
 to single people working on one game like Sryth, or small teams like Core
 exiles, though nobody has done it with accessible games yet.

 Beware the Grue!

 Dark.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
 If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread Milos Przic
I can't understand it too. I needed a month to code a small piece of 
interactive fiction, that was full of bugs at the end so I have never 
released it. But this is reallz a record. Good work!

 Milos Przic
msn: milos.pr...@gmail.com
skype: Milosh-hs
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:06 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc 
thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!




Jeremy,
You can't be human man. nope. you're some kind of robot or something. how 
on earth can you possibly program complex games so quickly? It's totally 
ridiculous. in a good way of course :D. have you realized the business 
potential? I'm scared to imagine what you'd whip up if you start working 
on a commercial audio game for like 6 to 8 months. I bet the game would be 
so good that you'll be able to sell it for around $60 with no problems. 
and most people will buy it! look at your games right now? everyone's 
downloading and playing them. that's what I call a successful developer! 
selling games is definitely something for you to consider I think. anyone 
else agree? Also, since you're fully sighted, it wouldn't necessarily need 
to be audio-based only. you could whip up some graphics and sell it to 
everyone! ok I'm getting a bit excited here haha. one thing we desperately 
need I think are beat-em-ups. or fighting games in general. not every 
blind person is willing to try something like Mortal Kombat or Street 
Fighter no matter how much those of us that play try to convince them that 
they're accessible enough. Also thing with these fighting games is 
many of them are console based. I personally would love to play something 
like Streets of Rage online with other audio gamers.










- Original Message - 
From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!


Boy I wish I didn't have to work, lol, I wouldn't have to stop coding! 
:D


If you do end up donating, believe me, it will be greatly appreciated. 
In fact, you would be my first donater!  I don't think donater is 
actually a word, but oh well.


Well sadly I'm heading out, have fun guys!

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,

please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,

please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.

__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
signature database 6298 (20110715) __


The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com






__ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
database 6298 (20110715) __

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

this is true, and is in fact the reason i no longer played sryth sinse it 
seemed the gm was getting far too greedy, sticking in areas that you 
couldn't get through without the uba gear from tallys workshop and expecting 
people to pay more than the initial subscription which by rights given that 
the game had over 2000 should've been more than enough).


one thought I have had however, is that many audio games can pretty much 
double as textual or graphical ones with litle work on the interface.


People stil pay for gamebooks, text games, interactive fiction or even ascii 
games like rogue and angband.


Given this, if a game like entombed had a basic text interface that printed 
on screen output in text, with either a couple of arrows or words to 
indicate direction so that people did not have to rely upon the wind sound, 
you have a perfectly playable game.


che could probably do a similar thing with the card room by adding basic 
card graphics,  though with che the name blind adrenaline is a litle 
against him in attracting people's interest.


The problem is however, people would not look at it as a normal game, but as 
a blind game, meaning it'd need a deal of rewording on it's website to 
appeal to others.


audio games similarly, can appeal to sited people if they are presented not 
as blind games but as experimental new games with a revolutionary 
interface Look at what pappasanga as a good example.


I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if David greenwood 
rewrote the description of shades of doom to remove the word accessible and 
subscribed it to one of the online download resellers like lulu to be sold 
along side more usual graphical games.


I've had friends who are great doom players who were impressed by the 
atmosphere and action in shades simply because! of the lack of visuals, 
however the perception that disabled individuals are of another species and 
require their own special things, be that games, chairs, sticks or 
whatever.


The amount of times someone has been shocked when i explain I use a standard 
windows pc with a normal keyboard that does not have braille on the keys or 
anything else.


the sad truth is, if something includes the words accessible, or blind, 
people will not even try it. While this is obviously not a good thing 
socially, it is a truth that anyone trying to sell audio games to sited 
individuals needs to get used too.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread darren harris
Hi dark,

Well I think that given the technology available now making dare I say blind
friendly games with even basic graphical interfaces should be possible and
should be done now to open up the range of players and potential customers.
It's rather silly really to just present a blank screen and say there you
are play that. nobody is going to want to do it. because if the roles were
reversed you wouldn't want 1 of your senses taken away by default, this is
in essence what's happening here thus I think it's spoiling the potential
for these types of games. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
Good point Darren.  Actually I planned to add more artwork to castaways, but 
even with the super limited graphics already present, it is pretty playable 
from a sighted perspective.  I can play an entire game of castaways, without 
needing the screen reader, and in fact I usually do leave the screen reader off 
and just play it visually.  If any sighted family or friends, see you playing 
and mention that the graphics are incredibly simple, remember that adding 
artwork is pretty much my last priority while making an audio game haha.  I 
have done some pretty good graphical games in my past, so if it came down to 
trying to merge the blind and sighted communities, I'm sure I could do it.

Since I'm not selling my games, there is not much of an incentive to go after 
the mainstream gamers with these audio games.  Once we are talking about a 
multiplayer game, then it starts to make more sense, because we could use the 
extra players.  My work might start leaning in that direction as I expand the 
multiplayer.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread darren_g_harris
Right. Well like i say i do think that half the roblem with the blind 
friendly games is just that, they are aimed specifically at blind people. Which 
really doesn't give any chance for expposure. Or may i say the right kind of 
exposure. 

I can see a little bit, not too much but a little bit, with pplaying a game 
like shades of doom, am not saying it's not good because it is, but i felt like 
an element was taken from me right there. 

I think and this is my being point blank blunt about this, if people want games 
to pplay who can't see, then game development is going to have to change. Bar 
the likes of time of conflict and a few other mentions including what you're 
doing, i haven't seen anything majorly exciting over the last few years  and 
this isn't good.

Oh before i sign off, i'm writing this message on my phone and the keypppad is 
dying so if there's loads of extra letters in words then this is Why.

-original message-
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc 
thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!
From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com
Date: 16:07:2011 3.29 pm

Good point Darren.  Actually I planned to add more artwork to castaways, but 
even with the super limited graphics already present, it is pretty playable 
from a sighted perspective.  I can play an entire game of castaways, without 
needing the screen reader, and in fact I usually do leave the screen reader off 
and just play it visually.  If any sighted family or friends, see you playing 
and mention that the graphics are incredibly simple, remember that adding 
artwork is pretty much my last priority while making an audio game haha.  I 
have done some pretty good graphical games in my past, so if it came down to 
trying to merge the blind and sighted communities, I'm sure I could do it.

Since I'm not selling my games, there is not much of an incentive to go after 
the mainstream gamers with these audio games.  Once we are talking about a 
multiplayer game, then it starts to make more sense, because we could use the 
extra players.  My work might start leaning in that direction as I expand the 
multiplayer.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
Lol, Darren.  I just thought you were cold.

You're right though, people who have some sight, will probably want at least 
some graphics that they can use.  There isn't much of a point taking away a 
sense if we don't have to.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread dark
Well darren, as you'll gather on the stuff I've written about the second 
dimention in 2d to an extent I agree, however I do think things are slowly 
improving due to community in put and discussion in terms of moving away 
from boppit games and on to things that require crytical judgement instead.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Darren,

Well, its all well and good to say that, but tell me how a totally
blind developer such as myself are going to draw said graphics?

If it were a simple matter of programming sure I can handle that easy
enough. However, in order to render even simple graphics I'd have to
pay or look for sighted assistance with the initialdrawing of the
images and graphics to be used in my games. That's why many VI game
developers just create a blank screen, an empty, window and forget it.

On 7/16/11, darren harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote:
 Hi dark,

 Well I think that given the technology available now making dare I say blind
 friendly games with even basic graphical interfaces should be possible and
 should be done now to open up the range of players and potential customers.
 It's rather silly really to just present a blank screen and say there you
 are play that. nobody is going to want to do it. because if the roles were
 reversed you wouldn't want 1 of your senses taken away by default, this is
 in essence what's happening here thus I think it's spoiling the potential
 for these types of games.



 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
 If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

You are absolutely right. We have in large part alienated the
mainstream simply by declaring ourselves accessible games, blind
games, etc. As you pointed out many games could be adapted to suit
sighted players needs. Even if it is nothing more complex than a text
based UI.

For instance, you know I am working on a WWE wrestling game, and it
will largely be text based. Well, I know for a fact other such games
exist like Piledriver and Wrestling League Manager which were written
by and played by sighted mainstream gamers. I'm going to take that
idea one step forward and add background ambience, entrance music,
start and end bells for the matches, and perhaps a few grunts etc when
people are slammed, kicked, chopped, knocked down, etc. I'm also
considering Jim Kitchens request that I add Sapi 5 support as well.
Although, it happens to be accessible there is no reason I couldn't
market it to a mainstream community as well, because other than say
the Sapi support there is nothing that would indicate that this game
is anything other than a straight up text game with some audio for
ambience.

STFC is another prime example. Although, I wrote it as an audio game I
could in theory rewrite it with a text based UI, add screen
reader/Sapi support, and market it both to blind and mainstream
markets. I'm sure that some sighted players would be just as
interested to play it as we are provided I add some text to the
screen. It would have at the bare minimum some interests with sighted
Trek fans with a text based user interface as I would not be marketing
it specifically as a blind thing.

Cheers!


On 7/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Hi Tom.

 this is true, and is in fact the reason i no longer played sryth sinse it
 seemed the gm was getting far too greedy, sticking in areas that you
 couldn't get through without the uba gear from tallys workshop and expecting
 people to pay more than the initial subscription which by rights given that
 the game had over 2000 should've been more than enough).

 one thought I have had however, is that many audio games can pretty much
 double as textual or graphical ones with litle work on the interface.

 People stil pay for gamebooks, text games, interactive fiction or even ascii
 games like rogue and angband.

 Given this, if a game like entombed had a basic text interface that printed
 on screen output in text, with either a couple of arrows or words to
 indicate direction so that people did not have to rely upon the wind sound,
 you have a perfectly playable game.

 che could probably do a similar thing with the card room by adding basic
 card graphics,  though with che the name blind adrenaline is a litle
 against him in attracting people's interest.

 The problem is however, people would not look at it as a normal game, but as
 a blind game, meaning it'd need a deal of rewording on it's website to
 appeal to others.

 audio games similarly, can appeal to sited people if they are presented not
 as blind games but as experimental new games with a revolutionary
 interface Look at what pappasanga as a good example.

 I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if David greenwood
 rewrote the description of shades of doom to remove the word accessible and
 subscribed it to one of the online download resellers like lulu to be sold
 along side more usual graphical games.

 I've had friends who are great doom players who were impressed by the
 atmosphere and action in shades simply because! of the lack of visuals,
 however the perception that disabled individuals are of another species and
 require their own special things, be that games, chairs, sticks or
 whatever.

 The amount of times someone has been shocked when i explain I use a standard
 windows pc with a normal keyboard that does not have braille on the keys or
 anything else.

 the sad truth is, if something includes the words accessible, or blind,
 people will not even try it. While this is obviously not a good thing
 socially, it is a truth that anyone trying to sell audio games to sited
 individuals needs to get used too.

 Beware the grue!

 Dark.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-15 Thread dark
Actually yohandi, lots of Jeremy's games do have graphics, though admittedly 
simple ones and they're of use to me.


In Castaways you can see the map and the terrain of the tyles which makes 
for a handy overview, though from what I can gather buildings and other 
items don't appear on it at the moment, (unless they are really tiny nd too 
small for me to see, the way many of the animals in lunimals were).


As to selling games, the problem is self support would be difficult.

if we assume a 30 usd game will sell roughly 150 copies as games like rail 
racer I believe have, that means something like 4500 usd per game.


at that wrate, Jeremy would need to sell one game every 2 months to earn 27 
thousand dollars a year.


In england that is roughly the equivolent to the 20 thousand a year earned 
by starting level teachers, junior doctors and the like.


thus, if aprone has a semi decent job, he could probably get more 
programming,  though admittedly I don't know what the cost of living in 
the us is like and what a professional wage of a similar level would be.


I'm also not sure on the two month mark even for aprone, --- and then of 
course there's the fact that sales money would come gradually, not making 
things very secure.


that being said, some special games have sold many more copies (I'm told 
entombed hit the 500 mark), so my estimate is probably pretty low, though 
there's also the fact that most vi gamers aren't rolling in cash, and the 
number of Aprone's games they buy may be limited.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] Jeremy's incredible programming speed and misc thoughtswas Re: Castaways, 1 week milestone reached!

2011-07-15 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,

Actually, 20,000 a year is pretty small potatoes for most programmers.
If Jeremey were working for a game development company like microsoft
Game Studios, Activision, Nintendo, etc he could double that on an
entry level position. I've heard some senior programmers make upwards
to 60,000 as their yearly salary.  So with those figures in mind
20,000 sounds pretty low. Especially, if you look at the current
financial scale over hear.

Its been a while since I read the financial reports, but basically
$20,000  and less is considered to b below minimum wage even though a
person working for McDonald's and a like are lucky if they get $12,000
to $15,000 per year. The middle class is generally considered to be
$40,000 to $60,000 per year. Which is why people are screaming.
Unemployment is high, and the cost of living is so high that some
people have to work themselves to death taking on one or two dirt poor
minimum wage jobs like McDonald's and Burger King just to reach the
$20,000 minimum wage level the U.S. government consideres to be the
amount to be classified as minimum wage for our current c ost of
living. Of course, the crooks in Washing DC wouldn't raise the
national minimum wage, forcing companies to give everyone a raise, but
have no problems giving themselves raises when they want one.

Anyway, that's not the only problem comercial VI game developers have
to face. Here in the U.S. we have not had a cost of living adjustment,
raise in SSI, since like 2008. Mean while the cost of everything is
sky rocketing because of fuel and transport costs. Gas, food, taxie
service, you name it costs more and anyone on SSI, which 80% of the
blind are, have less to spend on toys and games. They have to
constantly fork over more and more money just to survive.

On 7/16/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 Actually yohandi, lots of Jeremy's games do have graphics, though admittedly
 simple ones and they're of use to me.

 In Castaways you can see the map and the terrain of the tyles which makes
 for a handy overview, though from what I can gather buildings and other
 items don't appear on it at the moment, (unless they are really tiny nd too
 small for me to see, the way many of the animals in lunimals were).

 As to selling games, the problem is self support would be difficult.

 if we assume a 30 usd game will sell roughly 150 copies as games like rail
 racer I believe have, that means something like 4500 usd per game.

 at that wrate, Jeremy would need to sell one game every 2 months to earn 27
 thousand dollars a year.

 In england that is roughly the equivolent to the 20 thousand a year earned
 by starting level teachers, junior doctors and the like.

 thus, if aprone has a semi decent job, he could probably get more
 programming,  though admittedly I don't know what the cost of living in
 the us is like and what a professional wage of a similar level would be.

 I'm also not sure on the two month mark even for aprone, --- and then of
 course there's the fact that sales money would come gradually, not making
 things very secure.

 that being said, some special games have sold many more copies (I'm told
 entombed hit the 500 mark), so my estimate is probably pretty low, though
 there's also the fact that most vi gamers aren't rolling in cash, and the
 number of Aprone's games they buy may be limited.

 Beware the grue!

 Dark.

---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.