Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming
The incredibly stupid part is also that usually the ones condemning video games are the ones who have nebver even played a single one of those games themselves. Bigottry comes with a lot of prejudice, be it games or against other minority people. It is probably best to just ignore such attempts and not give it acknowledgement by even bother discussing them. That just makes them think one is taking them seriously. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Munawar Bijani Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:44 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming Hi, The articles appeared to have no credible information at all; from start to finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or that. Very rarely did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far as their content and research is concerned. Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions. For instance, they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy curiosity about demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything? My answer to that is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions get you to think, but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a rhetorical question if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch of logical fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't Y be harmful for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information instead of as one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles. For now, though, I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious fundamentalism trying to destroy monotheism again. The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the Bible's viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching magic today. In a game, you are not taught how to wave a wand, concentrate your thoughts, go in to a state of meditation, curse people, etc. All you do is press buttons. If the power goes out, well, there goes your little magic trick. Why do the same people who condemn such games say it is okay to play online poker as long as you are not playing for money? Forget about magic, and focus on condemning gambling first--which is a much more realistic issue. I agree that certain types of games are not suited for children, but that has nothing to do with the Christian viewpoint--anyone, anywhere, can tell you that much. Instead of saying that is what a good faithful Christian believes the statement would be more correct if it said that is what anyone in their right mind believes. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Louise Keel' louise.k...@comproom.co.uk ; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint ongaming:3 articles Absolutely. Also sometimes games can be a good way of stress relief as well. Or if you're seriously annoyed at something you can vent that annoyance in a game. Whether it be something like doom or anything else. To my mind games are harmless. If kids for example get a hold of said games then quite frankly it's the fault of the parents for either allowing them to play them or not being watchful enough around their kids. That said there are situations where by for example if said child goes to a friends house and plays said game that's always a problem. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming
Hi Munawar, you have raised some good points here. The opinion of one or two individuals doesn't make a solid case for how the majority of parents or children feel about these games. They wouldn't even name the individuals that were supposed to have been interviewed making the research completely suspect as far as credibility is concerned. Then, asking a bunch of rhetorical questions backed up by bible verses doesn't make something necessarily true. All it does is state an opinion without proving anything. Sadly, I've read a lot of Christian articles like this and they are often largely based on opinion rather than any real facts. For example, several Christian fundamentalists I know believe that the earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old. They would like nothing more than to have evolution kicked out of the public schools, and have their version of creationism taught instead. However, the problem most people have with creationism is that it holds very little scientific weight, and simply isn't credible from a strictly scientific point of view. We know for a fact that the earth is millions of years old therefore the idea that the earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old is just ridiculous to most people. Trying to rationalize it without physical and scientific evidence isn't going to convince anyone of its reality. Same goes for this gaming article. They don't offer any statistics that playing games makes kids more violent, that they are drawn into the occult, that they will grow up without Christian values, etc. They just assume so, and hope you agree with them. This isn't good scientific evidence, but just ramblings from some fundamentalist group that is protesting something that conflicts with their personal values and beliefs. Munawar Bijani wrote: Hi, The articles appeared to have no credible information at all; from start to finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or that. Very rarely did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far as their content and research is concerned. Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions. For instance, they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy curiosity about demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything? My answer to that is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions get you to think, but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a rhetorical question if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch of logical fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't Y be harmful for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information instead of as one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles. For now, though, I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious fundamentalism trying to destroy monotheism again. The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the Bible's viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching magic today. In a game, you are not taught how to wave a wand, concentrate your thoughts, go in to a state of meditation, curse people, etc. All you do is press buttons. If the power goes out, well, there goes your little magic trick. Why do the same people who condemn such games say it is okay to play online poker as long as you are not playing for money? Forget about magic, and focus on condemning gambling first--which is a much more realistic issue. I agree that certain types of games are not suited for children, but that has nothing to do with the Christian viewpoint--anyone, anywhere, can tell you that much. Instead of saying that is what a good faithful Christian believes the statement would be more correct if it said that is what anyone in their right mind believes. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming
Hi, Unfortunately, I've met my fair share of people like that. My in-laws are a prime example of the type of bigots that they think they are the judge, jury, and executioner on everything and anything regardless if they know anything factual about it or not. Such condemning evidence can come from a brief commercial, what roomers they have heard, or another Christians opinion on the subject. in other words they draw their conclusions not on facts but on other's subjective opinions, comments, and their own bias towards this or that. For example, when I first met my wife her family and I got into a topic about movies, entertainment, etc. I made the mistake of mentioning i was a big fan of Star Wars. Her parents started in on me right away that Star Wars was evil, Satanic, and they had devils in it, etc. It was obvious from the conversation that they didn't have a clue what Star Wars was about, and they had a subjective notion based on completely false information. After arguing back and forth for a while I soon discovered they had seen a commercial for the Phantom menace where they had seen a brief clip of Darth Maul. They assumed because Darth Maul looked like a devil that he was to play the part of Satan in the movie. Their conclusion was totally false, of course, but that's how easily they were convinced Star Wars is Satanic. My point is that if people like that want to be taken seriously when discussing the morality of games, movies, books, whatever they first have to get their facts straight. Only facts, not assumptions, will be a more effective tool in making their argument and will strengthen their case. Simply stating game x, movie x, or book x is evil without offering up real facts or evidence to back up their opinion is meaningless. ChB wrote: The incredibly stupid part is also that usually the ones condemning video games are the ones who have nebver even played a single one of those games themselves. Bigottry comes with a lot of prejudice, be it games or against other minority people. It is probably best to just ignore such attempts and not give it acknowledgement by even bother discussing them. That just makes them think one is taking them seriously. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Munawar Bijani Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:44 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming Hi, The articles appeared to have no credible information at all; from start to finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or that. Very rarely did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far as their content and research is concerned. Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions. For instance, they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy curiosity about demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything? My answer to that is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions get you to think, but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a rhetorical question if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch of logical fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't Y be harmful for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information instead of as one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles. For now, though, I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious fundamentalism trying to destroy monotheism again. The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the Bible's viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching magic today. In a game, you are not taught how to wave a wand, concentrate your thoughts, go in to a state of meditation, curse people, etc. All you do is press buttons. If the power goes out, well, there goes your little magic trick. Why do the same people who condemn such games say it is okay to play online poker as long as you are not playing for money? Forget about magic, and focus on condemning gambling first--which is a much more realistic issue. I agree that certain types of games are not suited for children, but that has nothing to do with the Christian viewpoint--anyone, anywhere, can tell you that much. Instead of saying that is what a good faithful Christian believes the statement would be more correct if it said that is what anyone in their right mind believes. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Louise Keel' louise.k...@comproom.co.uk ; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint ongaming:3 articles Absolutely
Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming
My grandma is generally like that and so was my very first girlfriend. You didn't mention Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or even CHronicles of Narnia around them. I found out that they believed Aslan was actually the devil since God would never give himself any kind of physical representation or somesuch. If they'd react that way about books they'd be just as bad about games. My x and I got into a big argument about an RPG I happen to be a fan of, a series actually, the first of which was called Lufia and the Fortress of Doom. Chelsey's problem stemmed partly from the fact that the heroes were engaged in battle with four godlike beings called Sinistrals. I guess in her mind we hsouldn't fight against a god, however evil he might be. Then there was the fact that the characters had to find and use various magical items to become more powerful so they would stand a chance. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming Hi, Unfortunately, I've met my fair share of people like that. My in-laws are a prime example of the type of bigots that they think they are the judge, jury, and executioner on everything and anything regardless if they know anything factual about it or not. Such condemning evidence can come from a brief commercial, what roomers they have heard, or another Christians opinion on the subject. in other words they draw their conclusions not on facts but on other's subjective opinions, comments, and their own bias towards this or that. For example, when I first met my wife her family and I got into a topic about movies, entertainment, etc. I made the mistake of mentioning i was a big fan of Star Wars. Her parents started in on me right away that Star Wars was evil, Satanic, and they had devils in it, etc. It was obvious from the conversation that they didn't have a clue what Star Wars was about, and they had a subjective notion based on completely false information. After arguing back and forth for a while I soon discovered they had seen a commercial for the Phantom menace where they had seen a brief clip of Darth Maul. They assumed because Darth Maul looked like a devil that he was to play the part of Satan in the movie. Their conclusion was totally false, of course, but that's how easily they were convinced Star Wars is Satanic. My point is that if people like that want to be taken seriously when discussing the morality of games, movies, books, whatever they first have to get their facts straight. Only facts, not assumptions, will be a more effective tool in making their argument and will strengthen their case. Simply stating game x, movie x, or book x is evil without offering up real facts or evidence to back up their opinion is meaningless. ChB wrote: The incredibly stupid part is also that usually the ones condemning video games are the ones who have nebver even played a single one of those games themselves. Bigottry comes with a lot of prejudice, be it games or against other minority people. It is probably best to just ignore such attempts and not give it acknowledgement by even bother discussing them. That just makes them think one is taking them seriously. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Munawar Bijani Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:44 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming Hi, The articles appeared to have no credible information at all; from start to finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or that. Very rarely did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far as their content and research is concerned. Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions. For instance, they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy curiosity about demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything? My answer to that is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions get you to think, but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a rhetorical question if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch of logical fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't Y be harmful for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information instead of as one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles. For now, though, I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious fundamentalism trying to destroy monotheism again. The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the Bible's viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching magic today. In a game, you are not taught how to wave a wand