Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming

2009-09-10 Thread ChB
The incredibly stupid part is also that usually the ones
condemning video games are the ones who have nebver even
played a single one of those games themselves.
Bigottry comes with a lot of prejudice, be it games or
against other minority people. It is probably best to just
ignore such attempts and not give it acknowledgement by even
bother discussing them. That just makes them think one is
taking them seriously.
chrissy

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org
[mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Munawar
Bijani
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:44 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses
viewpoint on gaming

Hi,
The articles appeared to have no credible information at
all; from start to
finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or
that. Very rarely
did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far
as their content
and research is concerned.
Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions.
For instance,
they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy
curiosity about
demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything?
My answer to that
is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions
get you to think,
but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a
rhetorical question
if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch
of logical
fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't
Y be harmful
for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information
instead of as
one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles.
For now, though,
I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious
fundamentalism
trying to destroy monotheism again.
The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the
Bible's
viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching
magic today. In a
game, you are not taught how to wave a wand, concentrate
your thoughts, go
in to a state of meditation, curse people, etc. All you do
is press buttons.
If the power goes out, well, there goes your little magic
trick. Why do the
same people who condemn such games say it is okay to play
online poker as
long as you are not playing for money? Forget about magic,
and focus on
condemning gambling first--which is a much more realistic
issue.
I agree that certain types of games are not suited for
children, but that
has nothing to do with the Christian viewpoint--anyone,
anywhere, can tell
you that much. Instead of saying that is what a good
faithful Christian
believes the statement would be more correct if it said
that is what
anyone in their right mind believes.
Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard
knowledge is only
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj
Al-Balagha
mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com
- Original Message -
From: Darren Harris 
darren_g_har...@btinternet.com

To: 'Louise Keel' 
louise.k...@comproom.co.uk
; 'Gamers Discussion list'

gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint
ongaming:3
articles
 Absolutely. Also sometimes games can be a good way of
stress relief as
 well. Or if you're seriously annoyed at something you can
vent that
 annoyance in a game. Whether it be something like doom or
anything else.
 To my mind games are harmless. If kids for example get a
hold of said
 games then quite frankly it's the fault of the parents for
either
 allowing them to play them or not being watchful enough
around their
 kids. That said there are situations where by for example
if said child
 goes to a friends house and plays said game that's always
a problem.
 


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Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming

2009-09-10 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi Munawar,
you have raised some good points here. The opinion of one or two 
individuals doesn't make a solid case for how the majority of parents or 
children feel about these games. They wouldn't even name the individuals 
that were supposed to have been interviewed making the research 
completely suspect as far as credibility is concerned. Then, asking a 
bunch of rhetorical questions backed up by bible verses doesn't make 
something necessarily true. All it does is state an opinion without 
proving anything. Sadly, I've read a lot of Christian articles like this 
and they are often largely based on opinion rather than any real facts.
For example, several Christian fundamentalists  I know believe that the 
earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old. They would like nothing more 
than to have evolution kicked out of the public schools, and have their 
version of creationism taught instead. However, the problem most people 
have with creationism is that it holds very little scientific weight, 
and simply isn't credible from a strictly scientific point of view. We 
know for a fact that the earth is millions of years old therefore the 
idea that the earth is only 6,000 to 10,000 years old is just ridiculous 
to most people. Trying to rationalize it without physical and scientific 
evidence isn't going to convince anyone of its reality.
Same goes for this gaming article. They don't offer any statistics that 
playing games makes kids more violent, that they are drawn into the 
occult, that they will grow up without Christian values, etc. They just 
assume so, and hope you agree with them. This isn't good scientific 
evidence, but just ramblings from some fundamentalist group that is 
protesting something that conflicts with their personal values and beliefs.



Munawar Bijani wrote:

Hi,
The articles appeared to have no credible information at all; from 
start to

finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or that. Very rarely
did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far as their 
content

and research is concerned.
Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions. For 
instance,

they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy curiosity about
demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything? My answer 
to that
is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions get you to 
think,
but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a rhetorical 
question

if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch of logical
fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't Y be harmful
for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information instead of 
as
one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles. For now, 
though,

I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious fundamentalism
trying to destroy monotheism again.
The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the Bible's
viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching magic 
today. In a
game, you are not taught how to wave a wand, concentrate your 
thoughts, go
in to a state of meditation, curse people, etc. All you do is press 
buttons.
If the power goes out, well, there goes your little magic trick. Why 
do the

same people who condemn such games say it is okay to play online poker as
long as you are not playing for money? Forget about magic, and focus on
condemning gambling first--which is a much more realistic issue.
I agree that certain types of games are not suited for children, but that
has nothing to do with the Christian viewpoint--anyone, anywhere, 
can tell

you that much. Instead of saying that is what a good faithful Christian
believes the statement would be more correct if it said that is what
anyone in their right mind believes.
Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is 
only

useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha
mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming

2009-09-10 Thread Thomas Ward

Hi,
Unfortunately, I've met my fair share of people like that. My in-laws 
are a prime example of the type of bigots that they think they are the 
judge, jury, and executioner on everything and anything regardless if 
they know anything factual about it or not. Such condemning evidence can 
come from a brief commercial, what roomers they have heard, or another 
Christians opinion on the subject. in other words they draw their 
conclusions not on facts but on other's subjective opinions, comments, 
and their own bias towards this or that.
For example, when I first met my wife her family and I got into a topic 
about movies, entertainment, etc. I made the mistake of mentioning i was 
a big fan of Star Wars. Her parents started in on me right away that 
Star Wars was evil, Satanic, and they had devils in it, etc. It was 
obvious from the conversation that they didn't have a clue what Star 
Wars was about, and they had a subjective notion based on completely 
false information. After arguing back and forth for a while I soon 
discovered they had seen a commercial for the Phantom menace where they 
had seen a brief clip of Darth Maul. They assumed because Darth Maul 
looked like a devil that he was to play the part of Satan in the movie. 
Their conclusion was totally false, of course, but that's how easily 
they were convinced Star Wars is Satanic.
My point is that if people like that want to be taken seriously when 
discussing the morality of games, movies, books, whatever they first 
have to get their facts straight. Only facts, not assumptions, will be a 
more effective tool in making their argument and will strengthen their 
case. Simply stating  game x, movie x, or book x is evil without 
offering up real facts or evidence to back up their opinion is meaningless.



ChB wrote:

The incredibly stupid part is also that usually the ones
condemning video games are the ones who have nebver even
played a single one of those games themselves.
Bigottry comes with a lot of prejudice, be it games or
against other minority people. It is probably best to just
ignore such attempts and not give it acknowledgement by even
bother discussing them. That just makes them think one is
taking them seriously.
chrissy
  



-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org
[mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Munawar
Bijani
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:44 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses
viewpoint on gaming

Hi,
The articles appeared to have no credible information at
all; from start to
finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or
that. Very rarely
did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far
as their content
and research is concerned.
Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions.
For instance,
they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy
curiosity about
demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything?
My answer to that
is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions
get you to think,
but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a
rhetorical question
if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch
of logical
fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't
Y be harmful
for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information
instead of as
one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles.
For now, though,
I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious
fundamentalism
trying to destroy monotheism again.
The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the
Bible's
viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching
magic today. In a
game, you are not taught how to wave a wand, concentrate
your thoughts, go
in to a state of meditation, curse people, etc. All you do
is press buttons.
If the power goes out, well, there goes your little magic
trick. Why do the
same people who condemn such games say it is okay to play
online poker as
long as you are not playing for money? Forget about magic,
and focus on
condemning gambling first--which is a much more realistic
issue.
I agree that certain types of games are not suited for
children, but that
has nothing to do with the Christian viewpoint--anyone,
anywhere, can tell
you that much. Instead of saying that is what a good
faithful Christian
believes the statement would be more correct if it said
that is what
anyone in their right mind believes.
Munawar A. Bijani
Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard
knowledge is only
useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj
Al-Balagha
mailto:munaw...@gmail.com
http://www.bpcprograms.com
- Original Message -
From: Darren Harris 
darren_g_har...@btinternet.com
  
To: 'Louise Keel' 

louise.k...@comproom.co.uk
  

; 'Gamers Discussion list'



gamers@audyssey.org
  
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:24 AM

Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint
ongaming:3
articles
  

Absolutely

Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint on gaming

2009-09-10 Thread Bryan Peterson
My grandma is generally like that and so was my very first girlfriend. You 
didn't mention Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter or even CHronicles of Narnia 
around them. I found out that they believed Aslan was actually the devil 
since God would never give himself any kind of physical representation or 
somesuch. If they'd react that way about books they'd be just as bad about 
games. My x and I got into a big argument about an RPG I happen to be a fan 
of, a series actually, the first of which was called Lufia and the Fortress 
of Doom. Chelsey's problem stemmed partly from the fact that the heroes were 
engaged in battle with four godlike beings called Sinistrals. I guess in her 
mind we hsouldn't fight against a god, however evil he might be. Then there 
was the fact that the characters had to find and use various magical items 
to become more powerful so they would stand a chance.

Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza?
Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses viewpoint 
on gaming




Hi,
Unfortunately, I've met my fair share of people like that. My in-laws are 
a prime example of the type of bigots that they think they are the judge, 
jury, and executioner on everything and anything regardless if they know 
anything factual about it or not. Such condemning evidence can come from a 
brief commercial, what roomers they have heard, or another Christians 
opinion on the subject. in other words they draw their conclusions not on 
facts but on other's subjective opinions, comments, and their own bias 
towards this or that.
For example, when I first met my wife her family and I got into a topic 
about movies, entertainment, etc. I made the mistake of mentioning i was a 
big fan of Star Wars. Her parents started in on me right away that Star 
Wars was evil, Satanic, and they had devils in it, etc. It was obvious 
from the conversation that they didn't have a clue what Star Wars was 
about, and they had a subjective notion based on completely false 
information. After arguing back and forth for a while I soon discovered 
they had seen a commercial for the Phantom menace where they had seen a 
brief clip of Darth Maul. They assumed because Darth Maul looked like a 
devil that he was to play the part of Satan in the movie. Their conclusion 
was totally false, of course, but that's how easily they were convinced 
Star Wars is Satanic.
My point is that if people like that want to be taken seriously when 
discussing the morality of games, movies, books, whatever they first have 
to get their facts straight. Only facts, not assumptions, will be a more 
effective tool in making their argument and will strengthen their case. 
Simply stating  game x, movie x, or book x is evil without offering up 
real facts or evidence to back up their opinion is meaningless.



ChB wrote:

The incredibly stupid part is also that usually the ones
condemning video games are the ones who have nebver even
played a single one of those games themselves.
Bigottry comes with a lot of prejudice, be it games or
against other minority people. It is probably best to just
ignore such attempts and not give it acknowledgement by even
bother discussing them. That just makes them think one is
taking them seriously.
chrissy




-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org
[mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Munawar
Bijani
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:44 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: [Audyssey] My Thoughts: Re: the Jehovah's witnesses
viewpoint on gaming

Hi,
The articles appeared to have no credible information at
all; from start to
finish, they kept naming one youth who said this or
that. Very rarely
did they mention names, and to me that's suspicious as far
as their content
and research is concerned.
Further, they explained their arguments by asking questions.
For instance,
they ask Could not such games cultivate an unhealthy
curiosity about
demonic forces? Does this question really prove anything?
My answer to that
is, no. Sure, some may argue that those types of questions
get you to think,
but the way I see things, there is no point in asking a
rhetorical question
if you will not answer it. I see their findings as a bunch
of logical
fallacies, saying things like If x represents y, then can't
Y be harmful
for the child? Maybe if they had more credible information
instead of as
one youth put it, I would be more open to their articles.
For now, though,
I have dismissed it as an attempt of so-called religious
fundamentalism
trying to destroy monotheism again.
The authors commit an obvious fallacy when they mention the
Bible's
viewpoint on magic, and then state that games are teaching
magic today. In a
game, you are not taught how to wave a wand