Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-05-03 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
I realize that. But does that mean the titles have to be copyrighted?

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Dakotah Rickard
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 6:17 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

I will admit that I really don't like copywright law. It's really odd
and so convoluted that most lawyers don't get it.
still, I think it makes sense, in the sense that there's a specific
and definite impetus for the games that can be pointed to, without
paying royalties.

Signed:
Dakotah Rickard

On 4/26/11, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
 Whether or not the games are abandoned is not related to their
 copyright status. When code is abandoned, it does not at all mean that
 it is no longer copyrighted. For example, Windows 98, though now
 abandoned, is still copyrighted by Microsoft, and they have the right
 to decide how the code may be distributed.

 On 4/26/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Damien,
 I'm just curious. These games are abandoned, like several others. Yet
 there
 is no copyright on those. So why do we have to have a copyright on
 these?

 Best Regards,
 Hayden


 -Original Message-
 From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
 Behalf Of Damien Pendleton
 Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:30 AM
 To: Gamers Discussion list
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

 Hi Alex,
 Precisely. I feel that these games are way below my current standard now,
 especially as regards bugs. So it's simple. I either recreate Danger City
 on

 popular demand and completely revamp it and commercialise it under a new
 name, but keep some of the concepts the same, or I transfer the rights to
 somebody else.
 Regards,
 Damien.


 - Original Message -
 From: Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
 would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

 As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
 a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
 read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
 reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
 floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
 these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
 responsibility.

 Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
 abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
 contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
 distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
 somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
 X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
 that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
 people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
 other information that's right in front of them.


 On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking
that
 no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games
 like
 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games,
 that
 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,

Well, that's certainly true. Especially, if you want to delve into the
matter of international copyright laws which is extremely messy and
convoluted.

For instance, lets take the matter of the GPL, GNU General Public
License Agreement, which tries to keep certain software open and
available to the public free of charge. When it was initially drafted
by the software freedom foundation and others they wrote it up around
U.S. copyright law. Unfortunately, there are many countries around the
world like in the E.U. that doesn't recognize the GPL as valid. In
other words if Microsoft comes along with a commercial license the
E.U. countries will recognize it, but Linux comes along with a free
GPL license they won't recognize it as valid. It doesn't make a lot of
sense why any country would reject he idea of a completely free and
open source license that requires the software to remain free and
available to the public. I remember there was some sort of
international court battle over this sometime back between the open
source community like Gnome and the E.U. So copyright law is often
very convoluted, and doesn't make sense to the common man or woman.

Cheers!


On 4/27/11, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote:
 I will admit that I really don't like copywright law. It's really odd
 and so convoluted that most lawyers don't get it.
 still, I think it makes sense, in the sense that there's a specific
 and definite impetus for the games that can be pointed to, without
 paying royalties.

 Signed:
 Dakotah Rickard

---
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-28 Thread Dakotah Rickard
I doubt it makes sense to anyone, common or lawyer-ish. It's barely
recognizable as written word. I think, perhaps, the only folk who
could make heads or tails of it  in a complete manner are likely
buzzed on something or other, and they probably had a lot of
experience with puzzle-driven Interactive Fiction.
t's things like that that make me wish for a world community.

Anyway, I'm not trying to do much more than make a funny out of
something that isn't.

Chers everyone:
Dakotah Rickard

On 4/28/11, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

 Well, that's certainly true. Especially, if you want to delve into the
 matter of international copyright laws which is extremely messy and
 convoluted.

 For instance, lets take the matter of the GPL, GNU General Public
 License Agreement, which tries to keep certain software open and
 available to the public free of charge. When it was initially drafted
 by the software freedom foundation and others they wrote it up around
 U.S. copyright law. Unfortunately, there are many countries around the
 world like in the E.U. that doesn't recognize the GPL as valid. In
 other words if Microsoft comes along with a commercial license the
 E.U. countries will recognize it, but Linux comes along with a free
 GPL license they won't recognize it as valid. It doesn't make a lot of
 sense why any country would reject he idea of a completely free and
 open source license that requires the software to remain free and
 available to the public. I remember there was some sort of
 international court battle over this sometime back between the open
 source community like Gnome and the E.U. So copyright law is often
 very convoluted, and doesn't make sense to the common man or woman.

 Cheers!


 On 4/27/11, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote:
 I will admit that I really don't like copywright law. It's really odd
 and so convoluted that most lawyers don't get it.
 still, I think it makes sense, in the sense that there's a specific
 and definite impetus for the games that can be pointed to, without
 paying royalties.

 Signed:
 Dakotah Rickard

 ---
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-27 Thread Alex Kenny
Hi,
Whether or not the games are abandoned is not related to their
copyright status. When code is abandoned, it does not at all mean that
it is no longer copyrighted. For example, Windows 98, though now
abandoned, is still copyrighted by Microsoft, and they have the right
to decide how the code may be distributed.

On 4/26/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Damien,
 I'm just curious. These games are abandoned, like several others. Yet there
 is no copyright on those. So why do we have to have a copyright on these?

 Best Regards,
 Hayden


 -Original Message-
 From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
 Behalf Of Damien Pendleton
 Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:30 AM
 To: Gamers Discussion list
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

 Hi Alex,
 Precisely. I feel that these games are way below my current standard now,
 especially as regards bugs. So it's simple. I either recreate Danger City on

 popular demand and completely revamp it and commercialise it under a new
 name, but keep some of the concepts the same, or I transfer the rights to
 somebody else.
 Regards,
 Damien.


 - Original Message -
 From: Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
 would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

 As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
 a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
 read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
 reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
 floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
 these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
 responsibility.

 Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
 abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
 contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
 distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
 somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
 X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
 that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
 people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
 other information that's right in front of them.


 On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that
 no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games
 like
 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games,
 that
 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

 ---
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 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-27 Thread Dakotah Rickard
I will admit that I really don't like copywright law. It's really odd
and so convoluted that most lawyers don't get it.
still, I think it makes sense, in the sense that there's a specific
and definite impetus for the games that can be pointed to, without
paying royalties.

Signed:
Dakotah Rickard

On 4/26/11, Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
 Whether or not the games are abandoned is not related to their
 copyright status. When code is abandoned, it does not at all mean that
 it is no longer copyrighted. For example, Windows 98, though now
 abandoned, is still copyrighted by Microsoft, and they have the right
 to decide how the code may be distributed.

 On 4/26/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Damien,
 I'm just curious. These games are abandoned, like several others. Yet
 there
 is no copyright on those. So why do we have to have a copyright on
 these?

 Best Regards,
 Hayden


 -Original Message-
 From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
 Behalf Of Damien Pendleton
 Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:30 AM
 To: Gamers Discussion list
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

 Hi Alex,
 Precisely. I feel that these games are way below my current standard now,
 especially as regards bugs. So it's simple. I either recreate Danger City
 on

 popular demand and completely revamp it and commercialise it under a new
 name, but keep some of the concepts the same, or I transfer the rights to
 somebody else.
 Regards,
 Damien.


 - Original Message -
 From: Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
 would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

 As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
 a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
 read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
 reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
 floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
 these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
 responsibility.

 Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
 abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
 contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
 distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
 somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
 X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
 that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
 people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
 other information that's right in front of them.


 On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that
 no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games
 like
 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games,
 that
 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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 list,
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-26 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Damien,
I'm just curious. These games are abandoned, like several others. Yet there
is no copyright on those. So why do we have to have a copyright on these?

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Damien Pendleton
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:30 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

Hi Alex,
Precisely. I feel that these games are way below my current standard now, 
especially as regards bugs. So it's simple. I either recreate Danger City on

popular demand and completely revamp it and commercialise it under a new 
name, but keep some of the concepts the same, or I transfer the rights to 
somebody else.
Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
 would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

 As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
 a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
 read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
 reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
 floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
 these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
 responsibility.

 Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
 abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
 contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
 distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
 somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
 X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
 that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
 people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
 other information that's right in front of them.


 On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that 
 no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games 
 like
 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games, 
 that
 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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 list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. 


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-18 Thread shaun everiss

savage gambit I have or had.
I could never get the keys off.
Concept looked good but it was a bit impractical
actuallyIt would be good if it was easier.
Something like woopass or atleast hit space on things to make them go away.
or at least have the controls closer at h hand.


At 02:56 p.m. 18/04/2011, you wrote:

Hi Ken,
While I can't really agree with you on the whole all audio games are bop
it thing, I definitely see your point with the Saveage Gambit; you
definitely have no room in which to do anything different than the expected
imput.

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of The Addictor
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:39 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

I actually beat Redemption, believe it or not.  I think Self Destruct is
better.  At least when I played that I didn't feel like I was playing yet
another Bop it game.  I like Bop It, but not for a boxing game.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 Hi Damien,

 Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
 interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
 personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
 hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
 reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
 website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
 or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
 because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
 War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
 has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
 an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
 bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
 then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
 Tonto.

 One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
 Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
 Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
 programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
 ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
 of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
 bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
 using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
 tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some
 extremely bad habits, and  do to Jason's inexperience I could see
 mistakes he would be passing on to the next generation developer. So I
 understand exactly why you don't want to simply upgrade the code, and
 would have to rewrite it from scratch.

 In fact, the only game on your list of games I might consider updating
 would be the Savage Gambit. I think if it was rewritten, given some
 better keyboard asignments, etc it could be a decent game. However, it
 is pretty difficult to play in its current state.

 Cheers!


 On 4/16/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since

 I
 have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I
 feel
 like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the
 games
 that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their
 scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level

 1
 in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in
 this
 or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because
 these
 games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me

 to
 forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated
 that
 way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a
 host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality
 products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with
 my
 name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and
 it
 would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.
 Hope that helps.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-18 Thread Dakotah Rickard
Oh, I think that's a great compromise. MOTA and Danger City are really
quite different in many ways, though both are side scrollers and both
involve beating the crap out of your enemies. I see the points, by the
way, in your arguments. I think that your wish to keep ownership so
that you can point to the old titles as basis for new ones is valid,
but I have to be honest. If I write a side scrolling fight and shoot
game, I'll probably thank you guys, as side scroller developers, for
the inspiration to put together a game like that. I view that as
honesty, as I'm not ripping off you guys, only creditting you all for
brain juice. I say that you could probably do likewise, if you didn't
just make a new Danger City but took an idea like Gang Wars and
brought it to fruitful completion. If you did change the name, then
you could, reasonably, just drop Danger City into the public domain.
I also understand the annoyance of not having a developer to contact
about issues, but that really is what forums are for, community
support, that is. If you're working on a new title, inspired by an old
title, then you don't really need to keep ahold of the old one. Just
let it lie and caviot emptor, let the buyer beware, about the old one.
I look forward to the beat-'em-up you come up with, and even if you
don't public domain Danger City, I don't mind or begrudge it at all,
it's just food for thought.

Signed:
Dakotah Rickard

PS: I really can't wait to be an honest developer. I want to see the
perspective clearly from both sides, and I know I'm not completely
there yet. Still, one thing I'm glad I haven't seen much of at all in
this argument is the We're developers and you're not so you just
don't get it, thing I've seen sometimes in the past. I don't program
yet, but I'm in the midst of making several board games, which I hope
to program at some point, and I face the developers' vicious circle of
asking for suggestions and being overwhelmed or misdirected, and only
the truly mindless have never created anything in their lives, so I'm
glad I haven't seen any of that in this debate. You guys rock.

On 4/18/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 savage gambit I have or had.
 I could never get the keys off.
 Concept looked good but it was a bit impractical
 actuallyIt would be good if it was easier.
 Something like woopass or atleast hit space on things to make them go away.
 or at least have the controls closer at h hand.


 At 02:56 p.m. 18/04/2011, you wrote:
Hi Ken,
While I can't really agree with you on the whole all audio games are bop
it thing, I definitely see your point with the Saveage Gambit; you
definitely have no room in which to do anything different than the expected
imput.

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of The Addictor
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:39 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

I actually beat Redemption, believe it or not.  I think Self Destruct is
better.  At least when I played that I didn't feel like I was playing yet
another Bop it game.  I like Bop It, but not for a boxing game.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


  Hi Damien,
 
  Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
  interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
  personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
  hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
  reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
  website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
  or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
  because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
  War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
  has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
  an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
  bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
  then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
  Tonto.
 
  One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
  Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
  Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
  programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
  ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
  of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
  bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
  using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
  tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some

Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Pitermach
I just wanna say I totally agree. Actually, x-sight has done it before with 
some programs written ages ago like dectalk scripter and timer. While yes, 
they were made in autoit and they were buggy, I still find a use for them 
and still do use them on occasion.
And about Acefire, though it is a simple game, I seriusly think it's kind of 
enjoyable (ever tried just pressing the shooting keys with speech off so you 
don't see what's happening?)


About the abandoneware games. Self destruct isn't actually *that* bad and 
can really give you quite a challenge Well, it does for me anyway without 
any cheats.
- Original Message - 
From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed 



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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Pitermach,
Let me make a few things clear.
Dectalk Scripter and Timer have not been abandoned. They are still actively 
being worked on, though Timer is being revamped into a talking clock 
program. It is taking a while to write, but it will be up there.
This is not the list for general software, but when I took those older 
titles down I did say that they were still on our list.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


I just wanna say I totally agree. Actually, x-sight has done it before with 
some programs written ages ago like dectalk scripter and timer. While yes, 
they were made in autoit and they were buggy, I still find a use for them 
and still do use them on occasion.
And about Acefire, though it is a simple game, I seriusly think it's kind 
of enjoyable (ever tried just pressing the shooting keys with speech off 
so you don't see what's happening?)


About the abandoneware games. Self destruct isn't actually *that* bad and 
can really give you quite a challenge Well, it does for me anyway without 
any cheats.
- Original Message - 
From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5266 (20100709) __


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Dakotah,
OK, let's take your arguments one by one and put them into perspective.
1. Once a developer claims a game, that game is the responsibility of the 
developer.
That is very true, and is precisely the reason I do not want it 
redistributed. Since I still retain copyright on the games, in that regard 
they still have my name attached to them.
2. If, a while later, the developer no longer wants the game up, then make a 
redistributable release with no contact information and give it to folks who 
just want to play the game.
That is one thing I do not believe in, is releasing a game without contact 
information. That really annoys me when I download a game, and therefore I 
am not willing to stoop to that level myself. I expect to be able to contact 
the developer in the event of a problem.
3. Personally, I love danger city as it gives me a chance, every so often, 
to kick the crap out of people in a slightly unique way.
Well Dakotah, you are the very first person to tell me they like Danger 
City, and if that is the case then I may, on popular demand, write a new 
title that employs those fighting techniques. However, as the owner of 
Danger City, I am not satisfied with its outcome.
4. I feel about that game very much as I feel about MOTA, although frankly I 
understand how way better MOTA is.
You've hit the nail on the head there. MOTA is a much better game, and I 
hope to better myself based on what I have seen in MOTA. Based on that if I 
do write this new fighting game, you can rest assured that it will be ten 
times better than Danger City was (or at least I hope so).
5. The point is this: someone put time and effort into writing a program for 
people to play. For one person, who currently owns it, to say that they just 
don't care anymore, so why should anyone else is a serious blow to a 
reputation that is crucial for a developer to have.
I never said anybody else shouldn't care. I never said, All players of 
Danger City and Self Destruct please destroy all copies you have and never 
think of them again. I only asked that they not be hosted or redistributed. 
If you like Danger City in its current state, you are more than welcome to 
continue playing it.
As for the reputation, the same holds true for the state of the games in 
question. If I were to keep my old titles up I would have one good game 
packaged in among several substandard games, half of which I didn't write 
but now own, if that makes sense.

6. It's poor public relations to say that the games can't be redistributed.
So if a major company such as Microsoft decided to stop maintaining or 
supporting software, it would be considered bad PR for them to request that 
the beta of Windows 95 not be redistributed? I know that obviously Windows 
is a commercial product and legally cannot be distributed anyway, but I'm 
sure Jason wanted Danger City to end up as a commercial game, and I know if 
it were me writing it then that's what I would want also.
7. It's poor pr that people whining is the reason for a big mess of more 
whining.
I don't call it whining to be fair. I call it bug reporting. And those bugs 
get logged. And when I look at my log, which turns out to be nearly a book 
in length of constant emails of the same bugs, some even repeating previous 
emails to me in annoyance, I, in return, feel I am doing the best to quieten 
all parties and taking them down.
8. My vote: make a redistributable without contact info that the people who 
just love the games so much can grab ahold of and wash your hands of it. 
Totally unclaim the projects. They aren't yours. End of story.
They are still mine until otherwise specified. Yes, granted, the games are 
bad. But I would like to do similar games and letting go of the ownership is 
almost like closing the doors, if that makes sense.
Put it this way, if I let go of the ownership, I will do so by passing it to 
somebody else, and I won't just let it go for free like it's something as 
basic as a packet of sweets. They have to be seriously ready to sort the 
games out, whether maintaining the current code or rewriting them from 
scratch. I'm not going to let people fall into the same trap as I have.

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Alex,
Precisely. I feel that these games are way below my current standard now, 
especially as regards bugs. So it's simple. I either recreate Danger City on 
popular demand and completely revamp it and commercialise it under a new 
name, but keep some of the concepts the same, or I transfer the rights to 
somebody else.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Alex Kenny alexkenn...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
responsibility.

Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
other information that's right in front of them.


On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:

Hey Tom,
While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that 
no
one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games 
like

Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games, 
that

he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread shaun everiss

well I wouldn't mind if timer started development again.
I use it for my training sertain things need me to count my seconds 
in holds and such and i find it rather usefull.
I think it still has a use, though its probably gona have to be 
ported to something else or something I don't know.

At 08:25 p.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:
I just wanna say I totally agree. Actually, x-sight has done it 
before with some programs written ages ago like dectalk scripter and 
timer. While yes, they were made in autoit and they were buggy, I 
still find a use for them and still do use them on occasion.
And about Acefire, though it is a simple game, I seriusly think it's 
kind of enjoyable (ever tried just pressing the shooting keys with 
speech off so you don't see what's happening?)


About the abandoneware games. Self destruct isn't actually *that* 
bad and can really give you quite a challenge Well, it does for me 
anyway without any cheats.
- Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard 
dakotah.rick...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread shaun everiss

well damien I use timer all the time.
If I could test new versions I'd appreciate that as i really find it 
a usefull training tool.

At 08:32 p.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:

Hi Pitermach,
Let me make a few things clear.
Dectalk Scripter and Timer have not been abandoned. They are still 
actively being worked on, though Timer is being revamped into a 
talking clock program. It is taking a while to write, but it will be up there.
This is not the list for general software, but when I took those 
older titles down I did say that they were still on our list.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


I just wanna say I totally agree. Actually, x-sight has done it 
before with some programs written ages ago like dectalk scripter 
and timer. While yes, they were made in autoit and they were buggy, 
I still find a use for them and still do use them on occasion.
And about Acefire, though it is a simple game, I seriusly think 
it's kind of enjoyable (ever tried just pressing the shooting keys 
with speech off so you don't see what's happening?)


About the abandoneware games. Self destruct isn't actually *that* 
bad and can really give you quite a challenge Well, it does for me 
anyway without any cheats.
- Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard 
dakotah.rick...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5266 (20100709) __


The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread shaun everiss

dangercity is bad because it was not finnished and has no replay value.
the mines are a bit of a pain to etc but otherwise its ok.
At 09:25 p.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:

Hi Dakotah,
OK, let's take your arguments one by one and put them into perspective.
1. Once a developer claims a game, that game is the responsibility 
of the developer.
That is very true, and is precisely the reason I do not want it 
redistributed. Since I still retain copyright on the games, in that 
regard they still have my name attached to them.
2. If, a while later, the developer no longer wants the game up, 
then make a redistributable release with no contact information and 
give it to folks who just want to play the game.
That is one thing I do not believe in, is releasing a game without 
contact information. That really annoys me when I download a game, 
and therefore I am not willing to stoop to that level myself. I 
expect to be able to contact the developer in the event of a problem.
3. Personally, I love danger city as it gives me a chance, every so 
often, to kick the crap out of people in a slightly unique way.
Well Dakotah, you are the very first person to tell me they like 
Danger City, and if that is the case then I may, on popular demand, 
write a new title that employs those fighting techniques. However, 
as the owner of Danger City, I am not satisfied with its outcome.
4. I feel about that game very much as I feel about MOTA, although 
frankly I understand how way better MOTA is.
You've hit the nail on the head there. MOTA is a much better game, 
and I hope to better myself based on what I have seen in MOTA. Based 
on that if I do write this new fighting game, you can rest assured 
that it will be ten times better than Danger City was (or at least I hope so).
5. The point is this: someone put time and effort into writing a 
program for people to play. For one person, who currently owns it, 
to say that they just don't care anymore, so why should anyone else 
is a serious blow to a reputation that is crucial for a developer to have.
I never said anybody else shouldn't care. I never said, All players 
of Danger City and Self Destruct please destroy all copies you have 
and never think of them again. I only asked that they not be hosted 
or redistributed. If you like Danger City in its current state, you 
are more than welcome to continue playing it.
As for the reputation, the same holds true for the state of the 
games in question. If I were to keep my old titles up I would have 
one good game packaged in among several substandard games, half of 
which I didn't write but now own, if that makes sense.

6. It's poor public relations to say that the games can't be redistributed.
So if a major company such as Microsoft decided to stop maintaining 
or supporting software, it would be considered bad PR for them to 
request that the beta of Windows 95 not be redistributed? I know 
that obviously Windows is a commercial product and legally cannot be 
distributed anyway, but I'm sure Jason wanted Danger City to end up 
as a commercial game, and I know if it were me writing it then 
that's what I would want also.
7. It's poor pr that people whining is the reason for a big mess of 
more whining.
I don't call it whining to be fair. I call it bug reporting. And 
those bugs get logged. And when I look at my log, which turns out to 
be nearly a book in length of constant emails of the same bugs, some 
even repeating previous emails to me in annoyance, I, in return, 
feel I am doing the best to quieten all parties and taking them down.
8. My vote: make a redistributable without contact info that the 
people who just love the games so much can grab ahold of and wash 
your hands of it. Totally unclaim the projects. They aren't yours. 
End of story.
They are still mine until otherwise specified. Yes, granted, the 
games are bad. But I would like to do similar games and letting go 
of the ownership is almost like closing the doors, if that makes sense.
Put it this way, if I let go of the ownership, I will do so by 
passing it to somebody else, and I won't just let it go for free 
like it's something as basic as a packet of sweets. They have to be 
seriously ready to sort the games out, whether maintaining the 
current code or rewriting them from scratch. I'm not going to let 
people fall into the same trap as I have.

Hope this helps.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Hayden Presley
Damien,
I still believe you should just get rid of the copyrights; you do not plan
to work on any of these, and people want them. So what happens when people
want theSavage Gambit and such like?

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of shaun everiss
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 5:18 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

dangercity is bad because it was not finnished and has no replay value.
the mines are a bit of a pain to etc but otherwise its ok.
At 09:25 p.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:
Hi Dakotah,
OK, let's take your arguments one by one and put them into perspective.
1. Once a developer claims a game, that game is the responsibility 
of the developer.
That is very true, and is precisely the reason I do not want it 
redistributed. Since I still retain copyright on the games, in that 
regard they still have my name attached to them.
2. If, a while later, the developer no longer wants the game up, 
then make a redistributable release with no contact information and 
give it to folks who just want to play the game.
That is one thing I do not believe in, is releasing a game without 
contact information. That really annoys me when I download a game, 
and therefore I am not willing to stoop to that level myself. I 
expect to be able to contact the developer in the event of a problem.
3. Personally, I love danger city as it gives me a chance, every so 
often, to kick the crap out of people in a slightly unique way.
Well Dakotah, you are the very first person to tell me they like 
Danger City, and if that is the case then I may, on popular demand, 
write a new title that employs those fighting techniques. However, 
as the owner of Danger City, I am not satisfied with its outcome.
4. I feel about that game very much as I feel about MOTA, although 
frankly I understand how way better MOTA is.
You've hit the nail on the head there. MOTA is a much better game, 
and I hope to better myself based on what I have seen in MOTA. Based 
on that if I do write this new fighting game, you can rest assured 
that it will be ten times better than Danger City was (or at least I hope
so).
5. The point is this: someone put time and effort into writing a 
program for people to play. For one person, who currently owns it, 
to say that they just don't care anymore, so why should anyone else 
is a serious blow to a reputation that is crucial for a developer to have.
I never said anybody else shouldn't care. I never said, All players 
of Danger City and Self Destruct please destroy all copies you have 
and never think of them again. I only asked that they not be hosted 
or redistributed. If you like Danger City in its current state, you 
are more than welcome to continue playing it.
As for the reputation, the same holds true for the state of the 
games in question. If I were to keep my old titles up I would have 
one good game packaged in among several substandard games, half of 
which I didn't write but now own, if that makes sense.
6. It's poor public relations to say that the games can't be redistributed.
So if a major company such as Microsoft decided to stop maintaining 
or supporting software, it would be considered bad PR for them to 
request that the beta of Windows 95 not be redistributed? I know 
that obviously Windows is a commercial product and legally cannot be 
distributed anyway, but I'm sure Jason wanted Danger City to end up 
as a commercial game, and I know if it were me writing it then 
that's what I would want also.
7. It's poor pr that people whining is the reason for a big mess of 
more whining.
I don't call it whining to be fair. I call it bug reporting. And 
those bugs get logged. And when I look at my log, which turns out to 
be nearly a book in length of constant emails of the same bugs, some 
even repeating previous emails to me in annoyance, I, in return, 
feel I am doing the best to quieten all parties and taking them down.
8. My vote: make a redistributable without contact info that the 
people who just love the games so much can grab ahold of and wash 
your hands of it. Totally unclaim the projects. They aren't yours. 
End of story.
They are still mine until otherwise specified. Yes, granted, the 
games are bad. But I would like to do similar games and letting go 
of the ownership is almost like closing the doors, if that makes sense.
Put it this way, if I let go of the ownership, I will do so by 
passing it to somebody else, and I won't just let it go for free 
like it's something as basic as a packet of sweets. They have to be 
seriously ready to sort the games out, whether maintaining the 
current code or rewriting them from scratch. I'm not going to let 
people fall into the same trap as I have.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Stephen
I think many people full stop don't bother to read the documentation, 
be they blind or sighted.

At 04:50 AM 4/17/2011, you wrote:

I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
responsibility.

Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
other information that's right in front of them.


On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other 
games like

 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his 
games, that

 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread The Addictor
I actually beat Redemption, believe it or not.  I think Self Destruct is 
better.  At least when I played that I didn't feel like I was playing yet 
another Bop it game.  I like Bop It, but not for a boxing game.

Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Damien,

Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
Tonto.

One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some
extremely bad habits, and  do to Jason's inexperience I could see
mistakes he would be passing on to the next generation developer. So I
understand exactly why you don't want to simply upgrade the code, and
would have to rewrite it from scratch.

In fact, the only game on your list of games I might consider updating
would be the Savage Gambit. I think if it was rewritten, given some
better keyboard asignments, etc it could be a decent game. However, it
is pretty difficult to play in its current state.

Cheers!


On 4/16/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:

Hi Thomas,
I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since 
I
have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I 
feel
like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the 
games

that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their
scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level 
1
in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in 
this
or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because 
these
games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me 
to
forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated 
that

way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a
host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality
products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with 
my
name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and 
it

would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Damien.


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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Ken,
In that case, I will work on a new title with some of Danger City's concepts 
in. I think that is a fair compromise is it not?

Regards,
Damien.



- Original Message - 
From: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


Oh, I dunno about that.  There' just something about going up to that jerk 
and throwing him, then running up to him before he hits the ground and 
throwing him again.  Also, while it's true you can't play often, once a 
year or so is enough to forget where those bombs are.  On the whole 
though, if Battle Zone had some bombs and you could throw people, I 
probably wouldn't touch Danger City.

Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



dangercity is bad because it was not finnished and has no replay value.
the mines are a bit of a pain to etc but otherwise its ok.
At 09:25 p.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:

Hi Dakotah,
OK, let's take your arguments one by one and put them into perspective.
1. Once a developer claims a game, that game is the responsibility of the 
developer.
That is very true, and is precisely the reason I do not want it 
redistributed. Since I still retain copyright on the games, in that 
regard they still have my name attached to them.
2. If, a while later, the developer no longer wants the game up, then 
make a redistributable release with no contact information and give it to 
folks who just want to play the game.
That is one thing I do not believe in, is releasing a game without 
contact information. That really annoys me when I download a game, and 
therefore I am not willing to stoop to that level myself. I expect to be 
able to contact the developer in the event of a problem.
3. Personally, I love danger city as it gives me a chance, every so 
often, to kick the crap out of people in a slightly unique way.
Well Dakotah, you are the very first person to tell me they like Danger 
City, and if that is the case then I may, on popular demand, write a new 
title that employs those fighting techniques. However, as the owner of 
Danger City, I am not satisfied with its outcome.
4. I feel about that game very much as I feel about MOTA, although 
frankly I understand how way better MOTA is.
You've hit the nail on the head there. MOTA is a much better game, and I 
hope to better myself based on what I have seen in MOTA. Based on that if 
I do write this new fighting game, you can rest assured that it will be 
ten times better than Danger City was (or at least I hope so).
5. The point is this: someone put time and effort into writing a program 
for people to play. For one person, who currently owns it, to say that 
they just don't care anymore, so why should anyone else is a serious blow 
to a reputation that is crucial for a developer to have.
I never said anybody else shouldn't care. I never said, All players of 
Danger City and Self Destruct please destroy all copies you have and 
never think of them again. I only asked that they not be hosted or 
redistributed. If you like Danger City in its current state, you are more 
than welcome to continue playing it.
As for the reputation, the same holds true for the state of the games in 
question. If I were to keep my old titles up I would have one good game 
packaged in among several substandard games, half of which I didn't write 
but now own, if that makes sense.
6. It's poor public relations to say that the games can't be 
redistributed.
So if a major company such as Microsoft decided to stop maintaining or 
supporting software, it would be considered bad PR for them to request 
that the beta of Windows 95 not be redistributed? I know that obviously 
Windows is a commercial product and legally cannot be distributed anyway, 
but I'm sure Jason wanted Danger City to end up as a commercial game, and 
I know if it were me writing it then that's what I would want also.
7. It's poor pr that people whining is the reason for a big mess of more 
whining.
I don't call it whining to be fair. I call it bug reporting. And those 
bugs get logged. And when I look at my log, which turns out to be nearly 
a book in length of constant emails of the same bugs, some even repeating 
previous emails to me in annoyance, I, in return, feel I am doing the 
best to quieten all parties and taking them down.
8. My vote: make a redistributable without contact info that the people 
who just love the games so much can grab ahold of and wash your hands of 
it. Totally unclaim the projects. They aren't yours. End of story.
They are still mine until otherwise specified. Yes, granted, the games 
are bad. But I would like to do similar games and letting go of the 
ownership is almost like closing the doors, if that makes sense.
Put

Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
I'm not really sure what the reason for remembering where those bombs are
would be. Just jump them when you come to them. Truth be told I'd see mmore
replay from something like a Troopanum Clone than Danger City.

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of The Addictor
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:56 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

Oh, I dunno about that.  There' just something about going up to that jerk 
and throwing him, then running up to him before he hits the ground and 
throwing him again.  Also, while it's true you can't play often, once a year

or so is enough to forget where those bombs are.  On the whole though, if 
Battle Zone had some bombs and you could throw people, I probably wouldn't 
touch Danger City.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 dangercity is bad because it was not finnished and has no replay value.
 the mines are a bit of a pain to etc but otherwise its ok.
 At 09:25 p.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:
Hi Dakotah,
OK, let's take your arguments one by one and put them into perspective.
1. Once a developer claims a game, that game is the responsibility of the 
developer.
That is very true, and is precisely the reason I do not want it 
redistributed. Since I still retain copyright on the games, in that regard

they still have my name attached to them.
2. If, a while later, the developer no longer wants the game up, then make

a redistributable release with no contact information and give it to folks

who just want to play the game.
That is one thing I do not believe in, is releasing a game without contact

information. That really annoys me when I download a game, and therefore I

am not willing to stoop to that level myself. I expect to be able to 
contact the developer in the event of a problem.
3. Personally, I love danger city as it gives me a chance, every so often,

to kick the crap out of people in a slightly unique way.
Well Dakotah, you are the very first person to tell me they like Danger 
City, and if that is the case then I may, on popular demand, write a new 
title that employs those fighting techniques. However, as the owner of 
Danger City, I am not satisfied with its outcome.
4. I feel about that game very much as I feel about MOTA, although frankly

I understand how way better MOTA is.
You've hit the nail on the head there. MOTA is a much better game, and I 
hope to better myself based on what I have seen in MOTA. Based on that if 
I do write this new fighting game, you can rest assured that it will be 
ten times better than Danger City was (or at least I hope so).
5. The point is this: someone put time and effort into writing a program 
for people to play. For one person, who currently owns it, to say that 
they just don't care anymore, so why should anyone else is a serious blow 
to a reputation that is crucial for a developer to have.
I never said anybody else shouldn't care. I never said, All players of 
Danger City and Self Destruct please destroy all copies you have and never

think of them again. I only asked that they not be hosted or 
redistributed. If you like Danger City in its current state, you are more 
than welcome to continue playing it.
As for the reputation, the same holds true for the state of the games in 
question. If I were to keep my old titles up I would have one good game 
packaged in among several substandard games, half of which I didn't write 
but now own, if that makes sense.
6. It's poor public relations to say that the games can't be 
redistributed.
So if a major company such as Microsoft decided to stop maintaining or 
supporting software, it would be considered bad PR for them to request 
that the beta of Windows 95 not be redistributed? I know that obviously 
Windows is a commercial product and legally cannot be distributed anyway, 
but I'm sure Jason wanted Danger City to end up as a commercial game, and 
I know if it were me writing it then that's what I would want also.
7. It's poor pr that people whining is the reason for a big mess of more 
whining.
I don't call it whining to be fair. I call it bug reporting. And those 
bugs get logged. And when I look at my log, which turns out to be nearly a

book in length of constant emails of the same bugs, some even repeating 
previous emails to me in annoyance, I, in return, feel I am doing the best

to quieten all parties and taking them down.
8. My vote: make a redistributable without contact info that the people 
who just love the games so much can grab ahold of and wash your hands of 
it. Totally unclaim the projects. They aren't yours. End of story.
They are still mine until otherwise specified. Yes, granted, the games are

bad. But I would like

Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Ken,
While I can't really agree with you on the whole all audio games are bop
it thing, I definitely see your point with the Saveage Gambit; you
definitely have no room in which to do anything different than the expected
imput.

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of The Addictor
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 7:39 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

I actually beat Redemption, believe it or not.  I think Self Destruct is 
better.  At least when I played that I didn't feel like I was playing yet 
another Bop it game.  I like Bop It, but not for a boxing game.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 Hi Damien,

 Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
 interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
 personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
 hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
 reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
 website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
 or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
 because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
 War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
 has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
 an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
 bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
 then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
 Tonto.

 One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
 Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
 Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
 programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
 ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
 of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
 bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
 using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
 tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some
 extremely bad habits, and  do to Jason's inexperience I could see
 mistakes he would be passing on to the next generation developer. So I
 understand exactly why you don't want to simply upgrade the code, and
 would have to rewrite it from scratch.

 In fact, the only game on your list of games I might consider updating
 would be the Savage Gambit. I think if it was rewritten, given some
 better keyboard asignments, etc it could be a decent game. However, it
 is pretty difficult to play in its current state.

 Cheers!


 On 4/16/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since

 I
 have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I 
 feel
 like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the 
 games
 that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their
 scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level

 1
 in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in 
 this
 or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because 
 these
 games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me

 to
 forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated 
 that
 way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a
 host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality
 products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with 
 my
 name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and 
 it
 would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.
 Hope that helps.
 Regards,
 Damien.

 ---
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 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
 If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
 list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. 


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-17 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Personally, I think that is a good compromise. You don't have to keep
or update Danger City to get the same level of action or to create a
game with equal or better game play elements. Look at MOTA as an
example.

Truth be told I'd love to write an authentic Tomb Raider game complete
wwith original music, sounds, and of course Lara Croft. Copyrights
being a factor, of course, I can't legally do that. However, that
doesn't stop me from writing my own game that uses and borrows some
gameplay elements and ideas. As a result we have a nearly equal game
in terms of fun, replay value, and entertainment without the legal
rangling it would take to get the real thing written in accessible
format.

Same concept applies to Danger City. There are game play elements that
are good, might be decent, but it isn't something that necessarily has
to apply to that specific game. You might create a new game called
Gang Wars where you have to do similar things, avoid similar traps,
and includes elements of Danger City without returning to that title
directly. So it is a fair compromise really.

On 4/17/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Ken,
 In that case, I will work on a new title with some of Danger City's concepts
 in. I think that is a fair compromise is it not?
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Hayden and all,

I think there is more to it than that. For a developer its not so cut
and dry. There are other issues to consider besides just throwing it
up there and letting people download game x with or without support.

For example, it costs us money to purchase extra drive space on a web
server, it costs us money for the bandwidth we use, and every download
of game x goes right on our bill even if it might be pennies on the
dollar. So just because you might want to download the Savage Gambit
or some other old game, but you aren't exactly paying the bills
either. So its not really up to you what a developer does and does not
choose to host on his/her website.

I myself have a number of old abandoned games on my website with more
being added this weekend. However, let's not forget that is a service
I'm doing for the community because I happen to have enough drive
space and bandwidth to do it free of charge. If my financial situation
changes, have to end up getting a different hosting plan, etc that's
going to be the first thing I cut out of my budget. It has nothing to
do with weather I should or should not offer these games, but weather
I personally can afford to maintain the service without charging you
guys for it.

Now, imagine let's say bandwidth and drive space was an issue for
Damien and you guys started complaining that Self-Destruct, Savage
Gambit, and Danger City, weren't available for download. Let's say he
offers to host them if you pay him a yearly subscription fee of $10.00
which would go towards buying extra drive space, bandwidth, and any
other website upkeep fees. Would you personally go for it, or would
you turn around and say its too expensive and not worry about the
games?

See, that's were the rubber meets the road for me. You are all willing
to ask for this kind of service as long as it is free, but if it has
to come out of your own wallet then its a different tune. I think it
is high time you stop thinking about only what you want, and think
about us, the developers, and what we need. See why we might not
choose to continue supporting or offering a certain product for
download instead of complaining about it as we generally have valid
reasons for doing what we do.

Cheers!





On 4/16/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi,
 While I see the merits of supporting them, I do not see the merits of simply
 saying, ah to heck with them and removing them from your site. All you need
 say is that X-Sight holds no responsibility for the software working
 faultily.

 Best Regards,
 Hayden

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Ken,

Yeah, I don't quite get that part either. Even though I'm hosting the
DanZ Games, PB Games, etc I don't exactly have a polacy of nobody else
can redistribute them. Its not like I own them  exactly and I consider
them shareware for all. I think Damien should do the same for Danger
City, Savage Gambit, etc. They are not great games, but even if he
doesn't want to host them people should retain the right to
redistribute them via Sendspace or something.

On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games like
 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games, that
 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Thomas,
I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since I 
have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I feel 
like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the games 
that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their 
scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level 1 
in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in this 
or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because these 
games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me to 
forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated that 
way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a 
host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality 
products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with my 
name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and it 
would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.

Hope that helps.
Regards,
Damien.




- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com; Gamers Discussion list 
gamers@audyssey.org

Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Ken,

Yeah, I don't quite get that part either. Even though I'm hosting the
DanZ Games, PB Games, etc I don't exactly have a polacy of nobody else
can redistribute them. Its not like I own them  exactly and I consider
them shareware for all. I think Damien should do the same for Danger
City, Savage Gambit, etc. They are not great games, but even if he
doesn't want to host them people should retain the right to
redistribute them via Sendspace or something.

On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:

Hey Tom,
While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that 
no
one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games 
like

Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games, 
that

he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com


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list,
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
Tonto.

One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some
extremely bad habits, and  do to Jason's inexperience I could see
mistakes he would be passing on to the next generation developer. So I
understand exactly why you don't want to simply upgrade the code, and
would have to rewrite it from scratch.

In fact, the only game on your list of games I might consider updating
would be the Savage Gambit. I think if it was rewritten, given some
better keyboard asignments, etc it could be a decent game. However, it
is pretty difficult to play in its current state.

Cheers!


On 4/16/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since I
 have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I feel
 like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the games
 that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their
 scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level 1
 in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in this
 or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because these
 games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me to
 forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated that
 way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a
 host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality
 products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with my
 name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and it
 would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.
 Hope that helps.
 Regards,
 Damien.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Thomas,
You find that one difficult? I haven't had too much trouble; I've made it
all the way to the final fight on redemption but am now stuck.

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 6:30 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

Hi Damien,

Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
Tonto.

One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some
extremely bad habits, and  do to Jason's inexperience I could see
mistakes he would be passing on to the next generation developer. So I
understand exactly why you don't want to simply upgrade the code, and
would have to rewrite it from scratch.

In fact, the only game on your list of games I might consider updating
would be the Savage Gambit. I think if it was rewritten, given some
better keyboard asignments, etc it could be a decent game. However, it
is pretty difficult to play in its current state.

Cheers!


On 4/16/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since
I
 have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I
feel
 like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the games
 that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their
 scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level
1
 in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in
this
 or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because these
 games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me
to
 forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated
that
 way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a
 host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality
 products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with my
 name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and it
 would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.
 Hope that helps.
 Regards,
 Damien.

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread shaun everiss

neither ken.
Shell shock is ok but its hardly a game I'd concider playing often if at all.
I will ocationally play it and for its time even then it was not much.
At 06:27 a.m. 17/04/2011, you wrote:

Hey Tom,
While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking 
that no one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as 
other games like Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that 
great, but to demand that nobody else distribute them seems a bit 
odd.  I know they're his games, that he purchased them, but I don't 
see a reason for that.

Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com

- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Hayden and all,

I think there is more to it than that. For a developer its not so cut
and dry. There are other issues to consider besides just throwing it
up there and letting people download game x with or without support.

For example, it costs us money to purchase extra drive space on a web
server, it costs us money for the bandwidth we use, and every download
of game x goes right on our bill even if it might be pennies on the
dollar. So just because you might want to download the Savage Gambit
or some other old game, but you aren't exactly paying the bills
either. So its not really up to you what a developer does and does not
choose to host on his/her website.

I myself have a number of old abandoned games on my website with more
being added this weekend. However, let's not forget that is a service
I'm doing for the community because I happen to have enough drive
space and bandwidth to do it free of charge. If my financial situation
changes, have to end up getting a different hosting plan, etc that's
going to be the first thing I cut out of my budget. It has nothing to
do with weather I should or should not offer these games, but weather
I personally can afford to maintain the service without charging you
guys for it.

Now, imagine let's say bandwidth and drive space was an issue for
Damien and you guys started complaining that Self-Destruct, Savage
Gambit, and Danger City, weren't available for download. Let's say he
offers to host them if you pay him a yearly subscription fee of $10.00
which would go towards buying extra drive space, bandwidth, and any
other website upkeep fees. Would you personally go for it, or would
you turn around and say its too expensive and not worry about the
games?

See, that's were the rubber meets the road for me. You are all willing
to ask for this kind of service as long as it is free, but if it has
to come out of your own wallet then its a different tune. I think it
is high time you stop thinking about only what you want, and think
about us, the developers, and what we need. See why we might not
choose to continue supporting or offering a certain product for
download instead of complaining about it as we generally have valid
reasons for doing what we do.

Cheers!





On 4/16/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:

Hi,
While I see the merits of supporting them, I do not see the merits of simply
saying, ah to heck with them and removing them from your site. All you need
say is that X-Sight holds no responsibility for the software working
faultily.

Best Regards,
Hayden


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Hayden,

The problem with the Savage Gambit is the keyboard commands. To me
they don't make a lot of sense. I always press the wrong key or forget
what does what. What I meant by difficult is that its not intuitive.
However, on the other hand, as a plus, it does require practice to get
good at playing.

On 4/16/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Thomas,
 You find that one difficult? I haven't had too much trouble; I've made it
 all the way to the final fight on redemption but am now stuck.

 Best Regards,
 Hayden

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Bryan Peterson
Yeah it's difficult. I for one could never remember the control scheme, much 
less in time to act before I got the crap beaten out of me.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com

To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Thomas,
You find that one difficult? I haven't had too much trouble; I've made it
all the way to the final fight on redemption but am now stuck.

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 6:30 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

Hi Damien,

Yeah, I actually do see your point. It is for that very reason,
interesting enough, why I had never put up all of the PB Games, etc. I
personally feel something like Snowball War is simply not worth
hosting, but I've been asked time and time again to host it for one
reason or another so I put it up. However, I have a disclaimer on my
website that USA Games does not support those games in any way, shape,
or form. If people ask their questions will go unanswered simply
because I don't really see any need to keep some games like Snowball
War around. If you want it then use it at your own risk. So far no one
has really asked for help on any of the games I host so I don't have
an issue with hosting them. However, if I was getting flamed,
bombarded with questions, etc like you are with the abandoned games
then they'd be taken off my website faster than you can say pronto
Tonto.

One thing you can be assured of I'm not going to cry over Danger City,
Self-Destruct, etc because the games certainly are not worth it.
Jason, I think it was who ran XL Studios, was not a very skilled
programmer to be frank about it. I remember back when we still had the
ag-dev wiki and  mailing list Jason released the source for a couple
of his games as tutorials, and it was terrible. I suppose I'm a bit
bias since I was trained professionally, therefore I try to program
using professional standards, but all the same I didn't think it was
tutorial quality. I felt that for beginners it would teach them some
extremely bad habits, and  do to Jason's inexperience I could see
mistakes he would be passing on to the next generation developer. So I
understand exactly why you don't want to simply upgrade the code, and
would have to rewrite it from scratch.

In fact, the only game on your list of games I might consider updating
would be the Savage Gambit. I think if it was rewritten, given some
better keyboard asignments, etc it could be a decent game. However, it
is pretty difficult to play in its current state.

Cheers!


On 4/16/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:

Hi Thomas,
I just don't feel like they are games worth hosting. All I have had since

I

have retained the rights to these games are complaints and flames and I

feel
like they are more trouble than they are worth. If people wanted the 
games

that badly, they would have offered me their support rather than their
scorn. The amount of emails I have had complaining about the bug in level

1

in Danger City, or the bug in level 10 of Self Destruct, or the bug in

this
or the bug in that, and when I explained to them calmly that because 
these

games had been transferred to me they turned around and basically told me

to

forget it, I figured that neither me nor anybody else should be treated

that

way and held responsible for these bugs without good cause, whether as a
host or a developer. I feel that since I am trying to offer good quality
products now, if someone was to redistribute, or host, these games with 
my
name attached to them, they would hold me responsible for the bugs, and 
it

would put them off my next titles, if that makes sense.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Damien.


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Bryan Peterson
I tend to agree with you. The idea of having the controls in the shape of a 
human body was creative I'll admit but not very practical for most people.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Hayden,

The problem with the Savage Gambit is the keyboard commands. To me
they don't make a lot of sense. I always press the wrong key or forget
what does what. What I meant by difficult is that its not intuitive.
However, on the other hand, as a plus, it does require practice to get
good at playing.

On 4/16/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote:

Hi Thomas,
You find that one difficult? I haven't had too much trouble; I've made it
all the way to the final fight on redemption but am now stuck.

Best Regards,
Hayden


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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-16 Thread Alex Kenny
I'm not a developer, but I think there is a reason why a developer
would choose not to allow older programs to be redistributed.

As Damien has previously mentioned, these older titles were written in
a deprecated language by amateur developers. The code is difficult to
read, update, compile and run. I believe there is probably a
reputation issue. Developers don't want buggy and useless code
floating around the net that they wrote. True, Damien didn't write
these games, but by purchasing them, the code is now his
responsibility.

Another reason I've heard for developers refusing to redistribute
abandonware is that, even if they don't support it, people will still
contact them expecting help. If Damien did allow the games to be
distributed, I have no doubt that someone would download a copy
somewhere, encounter a problem, and send Damien an email saying, Game
X won't run! Help! Even if he emphasizes in the game documentation
that the games are abandonware, we've all seen first-hand that many
people in the blind community do not bother reading documentation or
other information that's right in front of them.


On 4/16/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote:
 Hey Tom,
 While I agree a hundred per cent, I still don't see why he's asking that no
 one else distribute the games.  I have them all, as well as other games like
 Shell Shock.  They are certainly not all that great, but to demand that
 nobody else distribute them seems a bit odd.  I know they're his games, that
 he purchased them, but I don't see a reason for that.
 Ken Downey
 The Addictor
 www.TheAddictor.com

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-15 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
While I see the merits of supporting them, I do not see the merits of simply
saying, ah to heck with them and removing them from your site. All you need
say is that X-Sight holds no responsibility for the software working
faultily.

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of shaun everiss
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:06 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

well I still use timer 1.0 which is quite old I wouldn't mind that 
maintained or put into something else.

Well, I got way too emotional that last message. Lol!
I don't consider x-sight a failure, it's just I've seen old projects 
being just sort of removed quite a few times in the passed 5 years.
Anyway, I think someone like Thomas should at least host the games 
on his website as is, just like it's been done with pb-games.
- Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton 
dam...@x-sight-interactive.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


Hi Pitermach,
I'm sorry you feel inclined to believe us a failure. Obviously I 
cannot change your views on the subject. However if you feel the 
games are worth the maintenance, contact me offlist and I can 
certainly make arrangements with you so that you may maintain the 
games yourself, which I must emphasise, includes fixing bugs, 
reading amateur code, and optionally replacing the sounds and 
cleaning up the documentation to your liking.
As far as I am concerned, I feel it is more worth the time, energy, 
money and resources to develop new titles rather than splashing out 
on old titles that are only going to continue to be free and 
substandard anyway.
Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd 
x-sight, or more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.
- Original Message -
__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5266 (20100709) __

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread shaun everiss

well as long as they stay up for those to enjoy I don't mind.
though I aggree with you  I don't even play acefire these days.
At 11:12 p.m. 14/04/2011, you wrote:

Hi all,
Due to our aim in bringing you quality audiogames and software, we 
have found it necessary to discontinue support for old titles. Games 
such as Self Destruct, Acefire, Danger City and the Savage Gamut are 
no longer being maintained or supported, while Giftanum will shortly 
be offered for download as an open source educational project.
This has been done for several reasons, all of which we have 
attempted to outline below:
Firstly, all the older titles were programmed in a now depricated 
platform, and are getting more and more unplayable as later versions 
of Windows are released into the market. They are only just playable 
on Windows Vista and Windows 7, and even that requires several 
dependencies to be installed.
Secondly, these were originally games written by third party 
developers who have different methods of programming. As a 
consequence it is much harder to read and understand the way the 
program is written, so maintaining them in their current state is impractical.
Thirdly, since most of these titles are in a state of completion, 
maintenance is all that is required, especially with some of the 
games that contain many critical bugs. As maintaining them is 
impractical and the development platform is now itself discontinued, 
the only available option to us is rewriting them from scratch. 
Given the amount of work it would take and the fact that they were 
considered free beforehand, it isn't worth the effort that would be 
involved.. We find it best to work purely on our own titles so that 
we can concentrate fully on the quality of our work and the finality 
of our products.
I hope this explanation has helped you to understand and support our 
decision, and are sorry for any inconveniences caused.
Although we have discontinued support and maintenance of these 
titles, X-Sight Interactive still retains the copyright to these 
titles until such time as further arrangements can be made. With 
that in mind I ask that these titles are not hosted or redistributed 
to any third party in any way in their current state.

We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter.
Regards,
Damien Pendleton.
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Pitermach
this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd x-sight, or 
more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.
- Original Message -  



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database 5266 (20100709) __

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Pitermach,
I'm sorry you feel inclined to believe us a failure. Obviously I cannot 
change your views on the subject. However if you feel the games are worth 
the maintenance, contact me offlist and I can certainly make arrangements 
with you so that you may maintain the games yourself, which I must 
emphasise, includes fixing bugs, reading amateur code, and optionally 
replacing the sounds and cleaning up the documentation to your liking.
As far as I am concerned, I feel it is more worth the time, energy, money 
and resources to develop new titles rather than splashing out on old titles 
that are only going to continue to be free and substandard anyway.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd x-sight, or 
more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.
- Original Message - 

__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5266 (20100709) __


The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Dennis Towne
Damien,

As a developer myself, I can completely feel your pain.  Most people
simply don't understand the amount of time and effort it takes to
maintain old, bugridden code, especially for release products.  I've
been asked many times if I could just 'create an old copy of Alter
Aeon without new feature X', and the answer is that sure, I could.
But if I have to choose between keeping a bunch of old servers running
and adding new features to the main server, the main server is going
to win out every time.

Dennis Towne

Alter Aeon
http://www.alteraeon.com

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Damien Pendleton
dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi Pitermach,
 I'm sorry you feel inclined to believe us a failure. Obviously I cannot
 change your views on the subject. However if you feel the games are worth
 the maintenance, contact me offlist and I can certainly make arrangements
 with you so that you may maintain the games yourself, which I must
 emphasise, includes fixing bugs, reading amateur code, and optionally
 replacing the sounds and cleaning up the documentation to your liking.
 As far as I am concerned, I feel it is more worth the time, energy, money
 and resources to develop new titles rather than splashing out on old titles
 that are only going to continue to be free and substandard anyway.
 Regards,
 Damien.


 - Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


 this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd x-sight, or
 more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.
 - Original Message -
 __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
 signature database 5266 (20100709) __

 The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

 http://www.eset.com




 ---
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Pitermach

Well, I got way too emotional that last message. Lol!
I don't consider x-sight a failure, it's just I've seen old projects being 
just sort of removed quite a few times in the passed 5 years.
Anyway, I think someone like Thomas should at least host the games on his 
website as is, just like it's been done with pb-games.
- Original Message - 
From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Pitermach,
I'm sorry you feel inclined to believe us a failure. Obviously I cannot 
change your views on the subject. However if you feel the games are worth 
the maintenance, contact me offlist and I can certainly make arrangements 
with you so that you may maintain the games yourself, which I must 
emphasise, includes fixing bugs, reading amateur code, and optionally 
replacing the sounds and cleaning up the documentation to your liking.
As far as I am concerned, I feel it is more worth the time, energy, money 
and resources to develop new titles rather than splashing out on old 
titles that are only going to continue to be free and substandard anyway.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd x-sight, or 
more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.
- Original Message - 

__ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5266 (20100709) __


The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com




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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com






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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Damien Pendleton

Pitermach,
Apology accepted.
As per your question regarding hosting the game elsewhere, purely because of 
the amount of bugs that are contained within these titles, I'd rather they 
were not redistributed. If someone is willing to take over these projects 
then they can obviously set their own terms regarding redistribution in the 
interim that the games are made fit for a new release, however as I said in 
my original message and my forum post, I am retaining the copyrights and 
ownership on the titles unless otherwise stated by me, or another developer 
if they have made appropriate arrangements with me.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - 
From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Well, I got way too emotional that last message. Lol!
I don't consider x-sight a failure, it's just I've seen old projects being 
just sort of removed quite a few times in the passed 5 years.
Anyway, I think someone like Thomas should at least host the games on his 
website as is, just like it's been done with pb-games.



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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Damien,

Well, as a software developer and gamer myself I think you are doing
the right thing. As you correctly pointed out Visual Basic 6 is an
extremely old development platform and language and for those of us
who have already made the transition to Windows 7, especially those
running newer 64-bit platforms, the technology is falling further and
further behind the mainstream development. I personally believe for
those developers who don't want to learn something like C++, Java, etc
BGT is the only way forward in terms of Windows game development. So
you are in my opinion making a good decision.

Cheers!


On 4/14/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi all,
 Due to our aim in bringing you quality audiogames and software, we have
 found it necessary to discontinue support for old titles. Games such as Self
 Destruct, Acefire, Danger City and the Savage Gamut are no longer being
 maintained or supported, while Giftanum will shortly be offered for download
 as an open source educational project.
 This has been done for several reasons, all of which we have attempted to
 outline below:
 Firstly, all the older titles were programmed in a now depricated platform,
 and are getting more and more unplayable as later versions of Windows are
 released into the market. They are only just playable on Windows Vista and
 Windows 7, and even that requires several dependencies to be installed.
 Secondly, these were originally games written by third party developers who
 have different methods of programming. As a consequence it is much harder to
 read and understand the way the program is written, so maintaining them in
 their current state is impractical.
 Thirdly, since most of these titles are in a state of completion,
 maintenance is all that is required, especially with some of the games that
 contain many critical bugs. As maintaining them is impractical and the
 development platform is now itself discontinued, the only available option
 to us is rewriting them from scratch. Given the amount of work it would take
 and the fact that they were considered free beforehand, it isn't worth the
 effort that would be involved.. We find it best to work purely on our own
 titles so that we can concentrate fully on the quality of our work and the
 finality of our products.
 I hope this explanation has helped you to understand and support our
 decision, and are sorry for any inconveniences caused.
 Although we have discontinued support and maintenance of these titles,
 X-Sight Interactive still retains the copyright to these titles until such
 time as further arrangements can be made. With that in mind I ask that these
 titles are not hosted or redistributed to any third party in any way in
 their current state.
 We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter.
 Regards,
 Damien Pendleton.
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Pitr,

I don't think that is very fair. This has nothing to do with X-Sight
being a failure, or that Damien is in someway a poor developer. What
Damien is doing makes perfect sense to me, and as a developer I
understand completely where he is coming from on this matter.

What a lot of you guys tend to fail to understand time and time again
is that the majority of accessible games were written by amateurs who
only have a basic understanding of programming to begin with, and to
make matters worse they chose to use an easy programming language like
Visual Basic 6 which is now an extremely old programming technology
that can't meet the specifications required for newer Windows
releases. If someone like Damien wants to simply upgrade the games
he'll have to work with the existing code, which can be difficult
since no two developers think the same, and locate all of the possible
bugs which is very very time consuming. The alternative is to simply
rewrite the games from scratch in a newer programming language like
C++, Java, BGT, whatever which can be just as time consuming because
you have to figure out how the program works and rewrite it in your
own particular style and language of choice. Since most of the games
like the Savage Gambit, Self-Destruct, are now considered freeware
anyway there is no real advantage to being gained by rewriting it when
there might be newer more interesting projects to create. Some of the
games like Self-Destruct, to be perfectly honest, isn't that much of a
great game to begin with. I think I played it once and then
uninstalled it, because I really didn't like the game. So you have to
forgive me for saying so, but I don't see any point in continuing the
project. I'm sure Damien can create something far better than
Self-Destruct if given half a chance to do so.


The difference here is, as I see it, taking over a project like
Raceway was worth it. It was a commercial project, James North wasn't
really an amateur, and I've learned something from reading his code I
didn't know before. Of course, I've improved upon his design by
rewriting it in C++ and using my own programming skills, but I'll get
my money back by selling it. Something like Self-Destruct has no
future as a comercial project, and unless there are some major
improvements it is still just going to be a so-so game at best. Why
not start fresh with a better game idea and run with it?

Cheers!


On 4/14/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote:
 this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd x-sight, or
 more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.

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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread shaun everiss
well I still use timer 1.0 which is quite old I wouldn't mind that 
maintained or put into something else.



Well, I got way too emotional that last message. Lol!
I don't consider x-sight a failure, it's just I've seen old projects 
being just sort of removed quite a few times in the passed 5 years.
Anyway, I think someone like Thomas should at least host the games 
on his website as is, just like it's been done with pb-games.
- Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton 
dam...@x-sight-interactive.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed



Hi Pitermach,
I'm sorry you feel inclined to believe us a failure. Obviously I 
cannot change your views on the subject. However if you feel the 
games are worth the maintenance, contact me offlist and I can 
certainly make arrangements with you so that you may maintain the 
games yourself, which I must emphasise, includes fixing bugs, 
reading amateur code, and optionally replacing the sounds and 
cleaning up the documentation to your liking.
As far as I am concerned, I feel it is more worth the time, energy, 
money and resources to develop new titles rather than splashing out 
on old titles that are only going to continue to be free and 
substandard anyway.

Regards,
Damien.


- Original Message - From: Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed


this is seriusly wrong. this is, if I'm not mistaking, a 3rd 
x-sight, or more like, x-depressing, whipeout. fail.

- Original Message -
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread shaun everiss

not to mention that bgt will always stay current.
And in most cases the code will stay the same anything in the 
background will just need another upgraded engine.



Hi Damien,

Well, as a software developer and gamer myself I think you are doing
the right thing. As you correctly pointed out Visual Basic 6 is an
extremely old development platform and language and for those of us
who have already made the transition to Windows 7, especially those
running newer 64-bit platforms, the technology is falling further and
further behind the mainstream development. I personally believe for
those developers who don't want to learn something like C++, Java, etc
BGT is the only way forward in terms of Windows game development. So
you are in my opinion making a good decision.

Cheers!


On 4/14/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote:
 Hi all,
 Due to our aim in bringing you quality audiogames and software, we have
 found it necessary to discontinue support for old titles. Games 
such as Self

 Destruct, Acefire, Danger City and the Savage Gamut are no longer being
 maintained or supported, while Giftanum will shortly be offered 
for download

 as an open source educational project.
 This has been done for several reasons, all of which we have attempted to
 outline below:
 Firstly, all the older titles were programmed in a now depricated platform,
 and are getting more and more unplayable as later versions of Windows are
 released into the market. They are only just playable on Windows Vista and
 Windows 7, and even that requires several dependencies to be installed.
 Secondly, these were originally games written by third party developers who
 have different methods of programming. As a consequence it is 
much harder to

 read and understand the way the program is written, so maintaining them in
 their current state is impractical.
 Thirdly, since most of these titles are in a state of completion,
 maintenance is all that is required, especially with some of the games that
 contain many critical bugs. As maintaining them is impractical and the
 development platform is now itself discontinued, the only available option
 to us is rewriting them from scratch. Given the amount of work it 
would take

 and the fact that they were considered free beforehand, it isn't worth the
 effort that would be involved.. We find it best to work purely on our own
 titles so that we can concentrate fully on the quality of our work and the
 finality of our products.
 I hope this explanation has helped you to understand and support our
 decision, and are sorry for any inconveniences caused.
 Although we have discontinued support and maintenance of these titles,
 X-Sight Interactive still retains the copyright to these titles until such
 time as further arrangements can be made. With that in mind I ask 
that these

 titles are not hosted or redistributed to any third party in any way in
 their current state.
 We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter.
 Regards,
 Damien Pendleton.
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Re: [Audyssey] Old Titles Removed

2011-04-14 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Shaun,

Yeah, one would hope BGT will stay current for the long hall. Still
even if not once Philip makes some upgrades like adding XAudio2
support and things like that which he is adding now any games written
with it will be pretty up to date for at least the next 5 years or so
for sure. We already know things like XAudio2 is going to be the
default audio library/API for the next major Windows release and what
Philip is doing now is simply adding that support so that his engine
is ready for the next generation Windows operating system. That kind
of planning ahead is smart and will benifit the community as a whole.

On 4/15/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 not to mention that bgt will always stay current.
 And in most cases the code will stay the same anything in the
 background will just need another upgraded engine.

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